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world_n catholic_n church_n communion_n 5,870 5 9.6775 5 true
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A69535 The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer. 1661 (1661) Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198 132,164 165

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the_o church_n to_o be_v confess_v and_o of_o such_o petition_n and_o thanksgiving_n as_o be_v ordinary_o by_o the_o church_n to_o be_v put_v up_o to_o god_n and_o that_o puplick_a catechism_n or_o systeme_n of_o doctrine_n shall_v summary_o comprehend_v all_o such_o doctrine_n as_o be_v necessary_o to_o be_v believe_v and_o these_o explicit_o set_v down_o the_o present_a liturgy_n as_o to_o all_o these_o seem_v very_o defective_a particular_o 1._o there_o be_v no_o preparatory_a prayer_n in_o your_o address_n to_o god_n for_o assistance_n or_o acceptance_n yet_o many_o collect_v in_o the_o midst_n of_o the_o worship_n have_v little_a or_o nothing_o else_o 2._o the_o confession_n be_v very_o defective_a not_o clear_o express_v original_a sin_n nor_o sufficient_o enumerate_v actual_a sin_n with_o their_o aggrivation_n but_o consist_v only_o of_o general_n whereas_o confession_n be_v the_o exercise_n of_o repentance_n ought_v to_o be_v more_o particular_a 3._o there_o be_v also_o great_a 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well_o know_v as_o that_o we_o may_v suppose_v any_o further_a proof_n of_o it_o to_o be_v needless_a in_o the_o conclusion_n therefore_o we_o humble_o beseech_v you_o that_o as_o antiquity_n and_o the_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n in_o the_o first_o age_n be_v that_o which_o be_v most_o common_o and_o confident_o plead_v against_o we_o that_o your_o mistake_n of_o antiquity_n may_v not_o be_v to_o our_o cost_n or_o pay_v so_o dear_a for_o as_o the_o loss_n of_o our_o freedom_n for_o the_o serve_v of_o god_n in_o the_o work_n of_o the_o ministry_n to_o which_o we_o be_v call_v we_o beseech_v you_o let_v we_o not_o be_v silence_v or_o cast_v out_o of_o the_o ministry_n or_o church_n for_o not_o use_v the_o liturgy_n cross_n surplice_n kneel_v at_o the_o sacrament_n till_o you_o have_v either_o show_v the_o world_n that_o the_o practice_n or_o canon_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n hau●_n lead_v you_o the_o way_n as_o do_v it_o or_o require_v it_o to_o be_v do_v and_o make_v not_o that_o to_o necessary_a as_o to_o force_v man_n to_o it_o on_o such_o dreadful_a term_n which_o the_o ancient_a church_n use_v with_o diversity_n and_o indifferency_n of_o liberty_n we_o beseech_v you_o show_v the_o world_n some_o proof_n that_o the_o ancient_a church_n do_v ever_o use_v to_o force_v or_o require_v minister_n to_o subscribe_v to_o their_o liturgy_n as_o have_v nothing_o in_o they_o contrary_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n or_o to_o swear_v obedience_n to_o their_o bishop_n before_o you_o impose_v such_o thing_n on_o we_o while_o yet_o you_o pretend_v to_o imitate_v antiquity_n and_o have_v but_o that_o moderation_n towards_o your_o brethren_n as_o in_o suffer_v or_o at_o death_n or_o judgement_n you_o will_v most_o appear_v remember_v how_o unpleasing_a the_o remembrance_n of_o such_o difference_n about_o ceremony_n be_v to_o bp._n ridley_n as_o
etc._n etc._n we_o reply_v 1._o profaneness_n may_v be_v oppose_v nevertheless_o for_o our_o instruct_v the_o people_n against_o idolatry_n 2._o the_o abound_v of_o papist_n who_o in_o this_o point_n seem_v to_o we_o idolatrous_a show_v that_o there_o be_v danger_n of_o it_o 3._o the_o commonness_n of_o idolatry_n through_o the_o world_n and_o the_o case_n of_o the_o israelite_n of_o old_a show_v that_o man_n nature_n be_v prone_a to_o it_o 4._o profaneness_n and_o idolatry_n befriend_v each_o other_o as_o god_n be_v jealous_a against_o idolatry_n so_o shall_v all_o faithful_a pastor_n of_o the_o church_n be_v and_o not_o refuse_v such_o a_o caution_n to_o the_o people_n and_o say_v there_o be_v no_o great_a need_n of_o it_o public_a baptism_n until_o they_o have_v make_v due_a profession_n of_o repentance_n etc._n etc._n we_o think_v this_o desire_n to_o be_v very_o hard_a and_o uncharitable_a punish_v the_o poor_a infant_n for_o the_o parent_n sake_n and_o give_v also_o too_o great_a and_o arbitrary_a a_o power_n to_o judge_v which_o of_o his_o parishioner_n he_o please_v atheist_n 〈…〉_z heretic_n etc._n etc._n and_o then_o in_o that_o name_n to_o reject_v their_o child_n from_o b_o 〈…〉_z baptise_a our_o church_n conclude_v more_o charitable_o that_o christ_n will_v 〈…〉_z vourable_o accept_v every_o infant_n to_o baptism_n that_o be_v present_v by_o the_o church_n according_a to_o our_o present_a order_n and_o this_o she_o conclude_v out_o of_o holy_a scripture_n as_o you_o may_v see_v in_o the_o office_n of_o baptism_n according_a to_o the_o practice_n and_o doctrine_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n cypr._n ep._n 59_o august_n ep._n 28._o &_o the_o verb._n apost_n ser._n 14._o reply_n we_o perceive_v you_o will_v stick_v with_o we_o in_o more_o than_o ceremony_n to_o your_o reason_n we_o reply_v 1._o by_o that_o reason_n all_o the_o child_n of_o all_o heathen_n or_o infidel_n in_o the_o world_n shall_v be_v admit_v to_o baptism_n because_o they_o shall_v not_o be_v punish_v for_o the_o parent_n sake_n 2._o but_o we_o deny_v that_o it_o be_v among_o christian_n that_o believe_v original_a sin_n any_o absurdity_n to_o say_v that_o child_n be_v punish_v for_o their_o parent_n sake_n 3._o but_o yet_o we_o deny_v this_o to_o be_v any_o such_o punishment_n at_o all_o unless_o you_o will_v call_v their_o non-deliverance_n a_o punishment_n they_o be_v the_o child_n of_o wrath_n by_o nature_n and_o have_v original_a sin_n the_o covenant_n of_o grace_n that_o give_v the_o save_a benefit_n of_o christ_n be_v make_v to_o none_o but_o the_o faithful_a and_o their_o seed_n will_v you_o call_v this_o a_o punish_v they_o for_o their_o father_n sake_n that_o god_n have_v extend_v his_o covenant_n to_o no_o more_o their_o parent_n infidelity_n do_v but_o leave_v they_o in_o their_o original_a sin_n and_o misery_n and_o be_v not_o further_o itself_o impute_v to_o they_o if_o you_o know_v of_o any_o covenant_n or_o promise_n of_o salvation_n make_v to_o all_o without_o condition_n or_o to_o infant_n or_o any_o other_o condition_n or_o qualification_n but_o that_o they_o be_v the_o seed_n of_o the_o faithful_a dedicate_v to_o god_n you_o shall_v do_v well_o to_o show_v it_o we_o and_o not_o so_o slight_o pass_v thing_n of_o so_o great_a moment_n in_o which_o you_o may_v much_o help_v the_o world_n out_o of_o darkness_n if_o you_o can_v make_v good_a what_o you_o intimate_v if_o indeed_o you_o mean_v as_o you_o seem_v to_o speak_v that_o its_o uncharitableness_n to_o punish_v any_o infant_n for_o the_o parent_n fault_n &_o that_o a_o non-liberation_a be_v such_o a_o punishment_n than_o you_o must_v suppose_v that_o all_o the_o infant_n of_o heathen_n jew_n &_o turk_n be_v save_v that_o die_v in_o infancy_n or_o else_o christ_n be_v uncharitable_a and_o if_o they_o be_v all_o save_v without_o baptism_n than_o baptism_n be_v of_o no_o such_o use_n or_o necessity_n as_o you_o seem_v to_o think_v what_o then_o be_v their_o privilege_n of_o the_o seed_n of_o the_o faithful_a that_o they_o be_v holy_a and_o that_o the_o covenant_n be_v make_v with_o they_o &_o god_n will_v be_v their_o god_n we_o fear_v you_o will_v again_o revive_v the_o opinion_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n among_o the_o people_n when_o they_o observe_v that_o you_o have_v no_o more_o to_o say_v for_o the_o baptise_v of_o the_o child_n of_o the_o faithful_a then_o of_o infidle_n heathen_n &_o atheist_n to_o your_o second_o objection_n we_o answer_v you_o will_v drive_v many_o a_o faithful_a labourer_n from_o the_o work_n of_o christ_n if_o he_o may_v not_o be_v in_o the_o ministry_n unless_o he_o will_v baptise_v the_o child_n of_o heathen_n infidel_n and_o excommunicate_a one_o before_o their_o parent_n do_v repent_v and_o the_o first_o question_n be_v not_o who_o shall_v be_v the_o judge_n but_o whether_o we_o must_v be_v all_o thus_o force_v be_v not_o the_o question_n as_o great_a who_o shall_v be_v the_o judge_n of_o the_o unfitness_n of_o person_n for_o the_o lord_n supper_n and_o yet_o there_o you_o think_v it_o not_o a_o take_n too_o much_o upon_o we_o to_o keep_v away_o the_o scandalous_a if_o they_o have_v their_o appeal_n to_o you_o and_o be_v it_o indeed_o a_o power_n too_o great_a &_o arbitrary_a to_o have_v a_o judiciam_fw-la discretionis_fw-la about_o our_o own_o act_n and_o not_o to_o be_v force_v to_o baptize_v the_o child_n of_o heathen_n against_o our_o conscience_n who_o judge_v for_o the_o baptizer_n in_o the_o primitive_a church_n what_o person_n they_o shall_v baptize_v we_o act_v but_o as_o engine_n under_o you_o not_o as_o man_n if_o we_o must_v not_o use_v our_o reason_n and_o we_o be_v more_o miserable_a than_o brute_n or_o man_n if_o we_o must_v be_v force_v to_o go_v against_o our_o conscience_n unless_o you_o will_v save_v we_o harmless_a before_o god_n o_o that_o in_o a_o fair_a debate_n you_o will_v prove_v to_o we_o that_o such_o child_n as_o be_v describe_v be_v to_o be_v baptize_v and_o that_o the_o minister_n that_o baptize_v they_o must_v not_o have_v power_n to_o discern_v who_o to_o baptize_v but_o who_o mean_v you_o by_o the_o church_n that_o must_v present_v every_o infant_n that_o christ_n may_v accept_v they_o be_v every_o infant_n first_o in_o the_o promise_n of_o pardon_n if_o so_o show_v we_o that_o promise_n and_o then_o sure_a god_n will_v make_v good_a that_o promise_n though_o heathen_a parent_n present_v not_o their_o child_n to_o he_o as_o your_o ground_n suppose_v if_o not_o then_o will_v the_o sign_n save_o those_o that_o be_v not_o in_o the_o promise_n but_o be_v it_o the_o godfather_n that_o be_v the_o church_n who_o ever_o call_v they_o so_o and_o if_o by_o the_o church_n you_o mean_v the_o minister_n and_o by_o present_v you_o mean_v baptise_v they_o than_o any_o heathen_n child_n that_o a_o minister_n can_v catch_v up_o and_o baptize_v shall_v be_v save_v which_o if_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v will_v persuade_v we_o to_o go_v hunt_v for_o child_n in_o turkey_n tartary_n or_o america_n and_o secret_o baptize_v they_o in_o a_o habit_n that_o shall_v not_o make_v we_o know_v but_o there_o be_v more_o of_o fancy_n then_o charity_n in_o this_o and_o christ_n never_o invite_v any_o to_o he_o but_o the_o child_n of_o the_o promise_n to_o be_v thus_o present_v and_o baptize_v sect._n 3_o p._n 23._o and_n than_o the_o godfather_n etc._n etc._n it_o be_v a_o erroneous_a doctrine_n and_o the_o ground_n of_o many_o other_o and_o of_o many_o of_o your_o exception_n that_o child_n have_v no_o other_o right_n to_o baptism_n then_o in_o their_o parent_n right_a the_o church_n primitive_a practice_n 23._o forbid_v it_o to_o be_v leave_v to_o the_o pleasure_n of_o parent_n whether_o there_o shall_v be_v other_o sarety_n or_o no_o it_o be_v fit_a we_o shall_v observe_v careful_o the_o practice_n of_o venerable_a antiquity_n as_o they_o desire_v prop._n 18._o reply_n we_o conjecture_v the_o word_n that_o conclude_v your_o former_a subject_n be_v misplaced_n be_v intend_v as_o your_o answer_n to_o this_o and_o if_o all_o the_o child_n of_o any_o sort_n in_o the_o world_n that_o be_v bring_v to_o we_o must_v by_o we_o be_v baptize_v without_o distinction_n indeed_o it_o be_v no_o great_a matter_n what_o time_n we_o have_v notice_n of_o it_o it_o seem_v we_o differ_v in_o doctrine_n though_o we_o subscribe_v the_o same_o article_n we_o earnest_o desire_v you_o distinct_o to_o tell_v we_o what_o be_v the_o infant_n title_n to_o baptism_n if_o it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v find_v in_o the_o parent_n assign_v it_o and_o prove_v it_o when_o you_o have_v do_v as_o well_o as_o we_o prove_v their_o right_n as_o they_o be_v the_o seed_n of_o believer_n dedicate_v by_o they_o to_o god_n and_o then_o we_o promise_v to_o consent_v it_o be_v strange_a to_o
why_o not_o as_o well_o to_o the_o solemnity_n of_o religious_a worship_n and_o in_o particular_a no_o habit_n more_o suitable_a than_o white_a linen_n which_o resemble_v purity_n and_o beauty_n wherein_o angel_n have_v appear_v rev._n 15._o fit_a for_o those_o who_o the_o scripture_n call_v angel_n and_o this_o habit_n be_v ancient_a chryso_n ho._n 60._o ad_fw-la pop_n antioch_n repl._n first_o if_o nothing_o can_v be_v add_v than_o we_o doubt_v the_o unanswered_a write_n extant_a against_o these_o imposition_n will_v never_o be_v well_o answer_v 2_o we_o be_v desirous_a that_o no_o indecent_a vesture_n or_o habit_n be_v use_v in_o god_n service_n those_o that_o scruple_n the_o surplice_n do_v it_o not_o as_o it_o be_v a_o habit_n determine_v of_o as_o decent_a but_o as_o they_o think_v it_o be_v make_v a_o holy_a vestment_n and_o so_o part_v of_o external_a worship_n as_o aaron_n vestment_n be_v as_o may_v be_v see_v in_o the_o argument_n of_o cotton_n and_o nicholls_n late_o print_v together_o sect._n 14._o the_o cross_n be_v always_o use_v in_o the_o church_n in_o immortali_fw-la lavacro_fw-la tertul._n and_o therefore_o to_o testify_v our_o communion_n with_o they_o as_o we_o be_v teach_v to_o do_v in_o our_o creed_n as_o also_o in_o token_n that_o we_o shall_v not_o be_v ashamed_a of_o the_o cross_n of_o christ_n it_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v use_v still_o and_o we_o conceive_v can_v trouble_v the_o conscience_n of_o any_o that_o have_v a_o mind_n to_o be_v satisfy_v repl._n that_o the_o cross_n be_v always_o use_v in_o the_o church_n in_o baptism_n be_v a_o assertion_n certain_o untrue_a and_o such_o as_o we_o never_o hear_v or_o read_v till_o now_o do_v you_o believe_v it_o be_v use_v in_o the_o baptism_n of_o the_o eunuch_n lydia_n the_o jailor_n cornelius_n the_o 300._o act_n 3._o or_o in_o those_o time_n and_o when_o it_o do_v come_v up_o it_o be_v with_o chrism_n and_o not_o ever_o any_o transient_a image_n and_o therefore_o you_o so_o far_o differ_v from_o the_o user_n 2_o the_o condemnation_n of_o genus_fw-la flection_n on_o the_o lord_n day_n in_o adoration_n be_v at_o least_o as_o ancient_a and_o universal_a and_o command_v by_o council_n when_o the_o cross_n be_v not_o and_o yet_o you_o can_v dispense_v with_o that_o and_o many_o such_o usage_n and_o if_o you_o will_v yourselves_o fall_v in_o with_o custom_n yet_o every_o ancient_a common_a custom_n be_v never_o intend_v to_o be_v a_o matter_n of_o necessity_n to_o union_n or_o toleration_n of_o our_o brethren_n use_v no_o other_o force_n about_o the_o cross_n than_o the_o church_n then_o do_v 3_o your_o say_n that_o you_o conceive_v it_o can_v trouble_v the_o conscience_n of_o any_o that_o have_v a_o mind_n to_o be_v satisfy_v do_v but_o express_v your_o uncharitable_a censoriousness_n while_o your_o brethren_n have_v study_v and_o pray_v and_o confer_v for_o satisfaction_n its_o like_a as_o much_o as_o you_o and_o profess_v their_o earnest_a desire_n of_o it_o and_o their_o readiness_n to_o hear_v or_o read_v any_o thing_n that_o you_o have_v to_o say_v in_o order_n to_o their_o satisfaction_n sect._n 15._o the_o posture_n of_o kneel_v best_a suit_n at_o the_o communion_n as_o the_o most_o convenient_a and_o so_o most_o decent_a for_o we_o when_o we_o be_v to_o receive_v as_o it_o be_v from_o god_n hand_n the_o great_a of_o seal_n of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o heaven_n he_o that_o think_v he_o may_v do_v this_o sit_v let_v he_o remember_v the_o prophet_n mal._n offer_v this_o to_o thy_o prince_n to_o receive_v his_o seal_n from_o his_o own_o hand_n sit_v see_v if_o he_o will_v accept_v of_o it_o when_o the_o church_n do_v stand_v at_o her_o prayer_n the_o manner_n of_o receive_v be_v more_o adorantiun_n s._n aug._n psal_n 98._o cyril_n catech._n mystag_n 5._o rahter_n more_o than_o at_o prayer_n since_o stand_v at_o prayer_n have_v be_v general_o leave_v and_o kneel_v use_v instead_o of_o that_o as_o the_o church_n may_v vary_v in_o such_o indifferent_a thing_n now_o to_o stand_v at_o communion_n when_o we_o keel_v at_o prayer_n be_v not_o decent_a much_o less_o to_o sit_v which_o be_v never_o the_o use_n of_o the_o best_a time_n reply_n to_o all_o this_o about_o kneel_v we_o say_v first_o we_o have_v consider_v the_o text_n in_o mal._n and_o what_o you_o say_v and_o yet_o first_o we_o find_v that_o our_o better_n even_o christ_n apostle_n and_o the_o universal_a church_n for_o many_o hundred_o year_n think_v not_o kneel_v more_o decent_a nor_o do_v the_o church_n in_o the_o first_o age_n think_v sit_v unmeet_a in_o that_o service_n to_o the_o king_n of_o the_o church_n and_o we_o hope_v you_o reprehend_v they_o not_o 2_o you_o require_v not_o the_o adult_n that_o be_v baptize_v to_o receive_v that_o seal_n or_o sacrament_n kneel_v 3_o when_o kneel_v at_o prayer_n be_v in_o use_n in_o the_o apostle_n time_n yet_o kneel_v in_o the_o reception_n of_o the_o sacrament_n be_v not_o 4_o why_o can_v you_o so_o light_o put_v off_o both_o the_o practice_n and_o canon_n of_o the_o church_n in_o this_o more_o than_o in_o other_o such_o thing_n however_o you_o can_v here_o deny_v de_fw-fr facto_fw-la but_o that_o kneel_v on_o the_o lord_n day_n in_o the_o receive_n of_o the_o sacrament_n be_v for_o many_o hundred_o year_n of_o the_o pure_a time_n of_o the_o church_n dis-used_n and_o condemn_v and_o why_o do_v you_o not_o tell_v we_o what_o other_o general_a council_n repeal_v this_o that_o we_o may_v see_v whether_o it_o be_v such_o as_o we_o be_v any_o way_n bind_v by_o when_o you_o say_v the_o church_n may_v vary_v in_o such_o indifferent_a thing_n first_o if_o kneel_v or_o stand_v at_o prayer_n be_v a_o indifferent_a thing_n then_o so_o be_v they_o at_o this_o sacrament_n 2_o then_o you_o follow_v the_o change_n and_o we_o the_o old_a pattern_n 3_o then_o the_o canon_n of_o general_a council_n and_o custom_n pretend_v to_o be_v from_o apostolical_a tradition_n may_v be_v change_v 4_o what_o be_v it_o that_o you_o call_v the_o church_n that_o change_v or_o may_v change_v these_o a_o council_n or_o a_o popular_a custom_n bring_v we_o not_o under_o a_o foreign_a power_n 5_o the_o thing_n then_o be_v so_o indifferent_a and_o changeable_a you_o may_v change_v it_o if_o you_o please_v for_o end_n that_o be_v not_o indifferent_a 6_o and_o if_o now_o the_o minister_n may_v pray_v stand_v why_o may_v not_o the_o people_n receive_v stand_v 7_o when_o you_o say_v that_o to_o sit_v be_v never_o the_o use_n of_o the_o best_a time_n you_o deny_v the_o apostle_n and_o primitive_a time_n to_o be_v the_o best_a as_o to_o the_o extent_n of_o the_o church_n they_o be_v not_o the_o best_a but_o as_o to_o purity_n of_o administration_n they_o be_v sect._n 16._o that_o there_o be_v ancient_a liturgy_n in_o the_o church_n be_v evident_a s._n chrysostom_n s._n basil_n and_o other_o and_o the_o greek_n tell_v we_o of_o s._n james_n much_o old_a than_o they_o and_o though_o we_o find_v not_o in_o all_o age_n whole_a liturgy_n yet_o it_o be_v certain_a that_o there_o be_v such_o in_o the_o old_a time_n by_o those_o part_n which_o be_v extant_a as_o sursum_fw-la corda_n etc._n etc._n gloria_fw-la patri_fw-la etc._n etc._n benedicite_fw-la hymnus_fw-la cherubinus_n etc._n etc._n verè_fw-la dignum_fw-la &_o justum_fw-la etc._n etc._n dominus_fw-la vobiscum_fw-la et_fw-la cum_fw-la spiritu_fw-la tuo_fw-la with_o divers_a other_o though_o those_o that_o be_v extant_a may_v be_v interpolate_v yet_o such_o thing_n as_o be_v find_v in_o they_o all_o consistent_a to_o catholic_n and_o primitive_a doctrine_n may_v well_o be_v presume_v to_o have_v be_v from_o the_o first_o especial_o since_o we_o find_v no_o original_n of_o these_o liturgy_n from_o general_a council_n reply_n we_o know_v there_o want_v not_o a_o lindanus_n a_o coccius_n to_o tell_v the_o world_n of_o s._n peter_n liturgy_n which_o yet_o pray_v that_o by_o the_o intercession_n of_o s._n peter_n and_o paul_n we_o may_v be_v defend_v &c_n &c_n and_o mention_v linus_n cletus_n clemens_n cornelius_n cyprian_n lucia_n barbara_n and_o abundance_n such_o shall_v we_o therefore_o conclude_v that_o there_o be_v liturgy_n from_o the_o first_o and_o that_o what_o be_v here_o consentient_a to_o antiquity_n be_v in_o it_o there_o want_v not_o a_o marg._n de_fw-fr la_fw-fr bigne_n à_fw-la greg._n de_fw-fr valent._n à_fw-fr coccius_n to_o commend_v to_o we_o the_o liturgy_n of_o mark_n that_o pray_v protege_fw-la civitatem_fw-la istam_fw-la proper_a martyrem_fw-la tuum_fw-la &_o evangelistam_fw-la marcum_fw-la etc._n etc._n and_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o king_n where_o the_o author_n live_v be_v a_o orthodox_n christian_n and_o pray_v for_o the_o pope_n subdeacons_n lelor_n cantor_n monk_n etc._n etc._n must_v we_o therefore_o believe_v that_o all_o that_o be_v orthodox_n in_o it_o