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A51741
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A reformed catechism. The first dialogue in two dialogues concerning the English Reformation / collected for the most part, word for word out of Dr. Burnet, John Fox, and other Protestant historians ; published for the information of the people in reply to Mas William Kings answer to D. Manby's considerations &c. ; by Peter Manby.
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Manby, Peter, d. 1697.
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1687
(1687)
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Wing M388; ESTC R30509
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77,561
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110
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cometh hurt to all men for it wearieth the stedfast troubleth the doubtful and ensnareth the weak and simple yet because he saith he is not bound to answer your Lordship sitting for the Popes Holyness because of a Premunire and the Word of God as he pretends I think good somewhat to say that all men may see how he runneth out of his race of Reason into the rage of common Talk. And as the King and Queens Majesty will be glad to hear of your most charitable dealing with him so will they be weary to hear the blundering of this stubborn Heretick And where he alledgeth Divinity minling fas nefásque together he should not have been heard For shall it be sufficient for him to alledge the Judge is not competent and shall we dispute contra cum qui negat principia Although there be here a great company of learned men that know it unmeet so to do yet have I here a plain Canon whereby he is convicted ipso facto The Canon is this Sit ergo ruinae suae dolore prostratus quisquis Apostolicis voluerit contraire Decretis nec locum deinceps habeat inter Sacerdotes sed exors à sancto fiat Ministerio c. He hath alledged many matters against the Popes Supremacy but maliciously Ye say that the King in his Realm is Supream Head of the Church Well Sir you will grant me that there was a perfect Catholique Church before any King was Christened Then if it were a perfect Church it must needs have a Head which must needs be before any King was member thereof For you know Constantinus the Emperor was the first Christian King that ever was and although you are bound as St. Paul saith to obey your Rulers and Kings have Rule over the People yet doth it not follow that they have Cure of Souls For à fortiori the Head may do what the Minister cannot do but the Priest may consecrate and the King cannot therefore the King is not Head of the Church And where the Apostles do call upon men to obey their Princes cui Tributum Tributum cui Vectigal Vectigal the Exhortation extendeth only to Temporal matters they perceiving that men were bent to Liberty and Disobedience were enforced to exhort them to Obedience and Payment of their Tribute And again where you say that the Bishop of Rome maketh Laws contrary to the Laws of the Realm that is not true for this is a maxim in the Law Quod in particulari excipitur non facit universale falsum And as touching that monstrous talk of your Conscience that is no Conscience that ye profess it is but privata Scientia and Secta As yet you have not proved for all your glorious Babble that by Gods Laws ye ought not to answer the Popes Holiness The Canons which be received in all Christendom compel you to answer And although this Realm of late time through such Schismatiques as you were hath exiled and banished the Canons yet that cannot make for you for you know your self that pars in totum nihil statuere potest Wherefore this Island being indeed but a member of the whole Church could not determine against the whole And the same Laws that were put away by Parliament are now received again by a Parliament having as full Authority now as they had then And these Laws will now that ye answer to the Popes Holiness Therefore by the Laws of this Realm ye are bound to answer him This was materially replied to Cranmers words that he would never consent that the Bishop of Rome should have any Jurisdiction in England Wherefore my good Lord all that this Thomas Cranmer I cannot otherwise term him confidering his Disobedience hath brought for his Defence shall nothing prevail with you Require him therefore to answer directly to your good Lordship command him to set aside his Trifles and to be obedient to the Laws and Ordinances of this Realm take witness here of his stubborn Contempt against the King and Queens Majesties and compel him to answer directly to such Articles as we shall here exhibit against him and in refusal your good Lordship is to excommunicate him Thus Dr. Story Fox page 654 655. NOTE Here his Fidelity to the Laws so long as they serve his turn the King Queen Parliament and Laws were then Popish He was for the Laws made by himself and the Duke of Somerset under the Childhood of Edward 6. A. Did he answer nothing further to the Charge of Heresie B. Nothing but this He pulled an Appeal out of his left Sleeve says Fox which he dellvered to the Court saying I appeal to the next General Council And further I intend to speak nothing against one holy Catholique and Apostolical Church or the Authority thereof the which Authority I have in great Reverence and whom my mind is in all things to obey pag. 663. 3 vol. The very words of his Appeal A. What did he mean by one holy Catholique Church B. His Definition of it you may find in the Thirty nine Articles of the Church of England which Articles were framed as Burnet thinks by him and Ridley and first published anno 1551. p. 166. 2. vol. The visible Church of Christ saith the 19th Article is a Congregation of faithful men in the which the pure Word of God is preached and the Sacraments duly ministred aceording to Christs Ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same Now in the year 1556. when Cranmer presented this Appeal there could not be in his opinion any such National or Catholique Church visible on the face of the Earth A. I pray make that appear B. By an Induction of all the Churches in the world that then professed themselves Christians as the Roman the Eastern the Church of England the Lutherans Calvinists Anabaptists c. the Roman in his opinion was but the Synagogue of Antichrist The Greek Church consented with the Roman in most of the Doctrines controverted betwixt Papists and Protestants as the Sacrifice of the Mass Adoration of the Eucharist Veneration of Images Invocation of Saints Prayer for the Dead c. and do consent at this day The Church of England was then newly reconciled to Rome and Catholique Bishops restor'd to their own Sees by Act of Parliament The Lutherans did then and at this day adore a corporal presence in the Sacrament and therefore cannot be said in his opinion to have the pure Word of God preached and the Sacraments duely administred according to Christs Ordinance The Calvinists had no Orders of Priests and Bishops consequently no Church at all A. How no Church at all for want of Priests and Bishops let that appear I pray you B. Read the Church of Englands Preface to the Form appointed by her for making and consecrating of Bishops Priests and Deacons and there observe these words viz. It is evident unto all men diligently reading holy Scripture and ancient Authors that from the Apostles time
thereof then the matter were not so great but in this we do forsake the first four General Councils which none ever forsook We renounce all Canonical and Ecclesiastical Laws of the Church of Christ we renounce all other Christian Princes we renounce the Unity of the Christian World I suppose he means by inventing to our Selves a Church of England divided from all the rest of the Christian World and so by leaping out of Peters Ship to be drowned in the unstable Waters of Heresie Sects Schisms and Confusions For the first General Council of Nice acknowledged Sylvester the Bishop of Rome his Authority to be over them by sending their Decrees to be ratifyed by him The Council of Constantinople did acknowledge Pope Damasus to be their Chief by admitting him to give Sentence against the Hereticks Macedonius Sabellius and Eunomius The Council of Ephesus acknowledged Pope Celestine to be their chief Judge by admitting his Condemnation upon the Heretick Nestorius The Council of Calcedon acknowledged Pope Leo to be their chief Head and all General Councils of the World ever acknowledged the Pope of Rome only to be Supream Head of the Church under Christ And now shall we set up another Head or one Head in England and another in Rome 3. We deny all Ecclesiastical Laws which do wholly depend upon the Authority of the Apostolick See of Rome 4 We renounce the Judgment of all other Christian Princes whether they be Protestants or Catholicks Nay by this argument Nero and Herod must have been Heads of the Church of Christ The Emperour must be Head of the Protestant Church in Germany And the Church of Christ must have never a Head at all till about three hundred years after Christ Fifthly The Kings Majesty is not susceptible of this Donation Ozias for medling with the Priests Office was resisted by Azarias thrust out of the Temple and told that it belongs not to his Office. Now if the Priest spake truth in this then is not the King to meddle in this business if he spake amiss why did God plague the King with Leprosie for this and not the Priest King David when the Ark of God was bringing home did he place himself in the head of the Priests Order did he so much as touch the Ark or execute any the least Office properly belonging to the Priestly Function or did he not rather go before and abase himself amongst the people and say that he would become yet more vile so that God might be glorified All good Christian Emperors have evermore refused Ecclesiastical Authority for at the first General Council of Nice certain Bills were privily brought unto Constantine to be ordered by his Authority but he caused them to be burnt saying Dominus vos constituit c. God hath ordained you Priests and hath given you Power to be Judges over us and therefore by right in these things we are to be judged by you but you are not to be judged by me Valentine the Good Emperor was desired by the Bishops to be present with them to reform the Heresie of the Arrians but he answered Forasmuch as I am one of the Members of the Lay people it is not lawful for me to define such Controversies but let the Priests to whom God hath given the charge thereof assemble where they will in due Order Theodosius writing to the Council of Ephesus saith It is not lawful for him that is not of the holy Order of Bishops to intermeddle with Ecclesiastical matters And now shall we cause our King to be Head of the Church which all good Kings have abhorred the very least thought of and so many wicked Kings have been plagued for so doing Truly my Lords I think they are his best Friends that disswade him from it and he would be the worst enemy to himself if he should obtain it Lastly If this thing be farewel all Unity with Christendom for as that holy and blessed Martyr St. Cyprian saith all Unity depends upon that holy See as upon the Authority of St. Peters Successors for saith the fame holy Father all Heresies Sects Schisms have no other Rise but this that men will not be obedient to the chief Bishop and now for us to shake off our Communion with that Church either we must grant the Church of Rome to be the Church of God or else a Malignant Church If you answer she is a Church of God and a Church where Christ is truly taught his Sacraments rightly administred c. how can we forsake how can we fly from such a Church certainly we ought to be with and not to separate our selves from such a one If we answer The Church of Rome is not of God but a Malignant Church then it will follow that we the Inhabitants of this Land have not as yet received the true Faith of Christ seeing we have not received any other Gospel any other Doctrine any other Sacraments than what we have received from her as most evidently appears by all the Ecclesiastical Histories wherefore if she be a Malignant Church we have been deceived all this while and if to renounce the common Father of Christendom all the General Councils especially the first Four which none renounce all the Countreys of Christendom whether they be Catholique Countreys or Protestant be to forsake the Unity of the Christian World then is the granting of the Supremacy of the Church unto the King a renouncing of this Unity a tearing of the Seamless Coat of Christ in sunder a dividing of the Mystical Body of Christ his Spouse limb from limb and tayl to tayl like Sampsons Foxes to set the Field of Christs holy Church all on fire and this is it which we are about wherefore let it be said unto you in time and not too late Look you to that The End of the First Dialogue containing the History of the First Reformers and Anti-Reformers The Second treats of the Reformation it self and the natural Fruits thereof Jealousy and Distraction amongst the People Decay of Sincerity c. Now Reader wer't thou to choose thy Religion consider which of these two Guides thou wouldst follow Cranmer or the Bishop of Rochester the former having no Mission from Heaven nor major Vote of the Convocation to authorise his Reformation nor yet any great mind to dye a Martyr for the same the later frankly exposing his Life to Stemm that Inundation of Sacriledge Schism and Confusion that was breaking in anno 1535. FINIS