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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68136	A letter vvritten by a true Christian Catholike, to a Romaine pretended Catholike Wherein vppon occasion of controuersie touching the Catholike Church the 12. 13. and 14. Chap. of the Reuelations are breifly and trulie expounded. Which conteine the true estate thereof, from the birth of Christ, to the end of the world.	Herbert, William, Sir, 1553?-1593.	1586 (1586)	STC 12752.5; ESTC S112797	52,029	90

that you came of curtesie to see me I must thanke you and am right sorye my leisure did not serue me to haue further speches with you You deliuered vnto me two Propositions as the grounde-worke of your opinion the one that the principles of your doctrine are grounded firmelie vpon the catholike Church which antiquitie vniuersalitie and consent doe plainelie make manifest vnto you The other that the signes giuen of a true Church by thē of the reformed religion which are the sincere preaching of the worde the right administration of the sacraments religious prayers holesome discipline are no true signes of a true Church but so to affirme them is an error in Logique for that the Church is a signe of them and not they of the Church For your first proposition that the errors thereof may better appeare I will brieflie handle these 3. points First that neither the Catholike Church nor the doctrine antiquity vniuersality or consent thereof can otherwise be knowne then by the scriptures Secondly that sundry principles of your religion are not at all grounded vpon the catholike Church Thirdly that the Romaine Church vpon the which your principles are grounded is neither the Catholike Church nor a sounde member of the catholike church For your 2. proposition that the errors thereof may likewise be seene I will in few words deale with ●●●se three points First that of a particuler Church no better iudgement can be giuen whether it be sounde or vnsound or of two particuler Churches which is the sounder then by the worde and doctrine that they preach by the sacraments that they minister by the praiers that they vse and by the discipline that they exercise for where these are moste pureliest and perfectliest done that Church is to be thought the purest and perfectest member of the Catholike Church Where these are impurest and corruptest that Church is to be iudged the impurest and corruptest member where these are not at all there is to bee accompted no visible Church to be at all Thus to affirme is an error in Logike but a truth in diuinitie Secondly that of the truth of the doctrine of the right administration of the sacraments of the sinceritie and puritie of the praiers of the godly exercise of the discipline in any Church the onelye perfecte absolute and true touchstone is the holy scripture which ought diligently to be read of all men Thirdlie that for the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in those things that are necessarie the circumstance of the place the conference of other places the proportion of the doctrine the summary of our faith and the holy Ghost working in our harts doe sufficiently enable and enlighten vs. The holy Catholike Church wee define to bee the congregation companie and societie of all those that haue beleeued in Christ from the beginning of the world to this present time all that nowe beleeue in him and all that from henceforth shall beleue in him to the end of the world It is called Sancta holy because it is sanctified hallowed by the holy ghost it is called Catholica catholike or vniuersall because it conteyneth all ages all places al persons that beleeue it is called Ecclesia because it is a calling out or euocation of people out of ignorance and error vnto the faith and knowledge of God This Church is the misticall body of Christ who is the true and onely heade of it which gouerneth it in omnipotēcie and is ioyned vnto it in charitie Saint Augustine vpon the 56. psalme confirmeth this our definition of the Church Corpus Christi est Ecclesia non autem ista aut illa sed toto orbe diffusa nec ea quae nunc est in hominibus qui praesentem vitam agunt sed ad eam pertinentibus etiam ijs qui fuerunt ante nos ijs qui futuri sunt post nos vsque in finem soeculi tota enim Ecclesia constans ex omnibus fidelibus quia fideles omnes sunt membra Christi habet illud caput positum in coelestibus quod gubernat corpus suum si seperatum est a visione annectitur Charitate The body of Christ is the church yet not this church or that but that whiche is dispersed throughout the whole world neither yet that alone which is in men that liue at this present but that vnto which they likewise appertayned that haue bene before vs and that are to come after vs vnto the worlds end For the whole church consisteth of all the faithfull for all the faithfull are members of Christ hauing that head placed in the heauenly places which gouerneth his bodye though it be separate from the sight it is adioyned in charitie It is deuided into two parts the militant and triumphant the triumphant already in blisse and glory ineffable the militant hoping for the like happinesse and in the meane time vnder the banner of Christ Iesus warfaring heere on earth against the world the flesh and the Diuell This church for antiquitie so auncient for number so great for estate so diuers for situation so vniuersall no mans age coulde serue to knowe no mans knowledge were able to conceiue no mans conceit were of sufficiēcy to comprehend if the holy Scriptures wherein the spirit of God hath deliuered these thinges for our instruction were not extant amongst vs. In them we are taught that the churche began in Adam that the first Martyr was Abel the first persecutor Cain that by the Breach of Gods commaundement mankinde fell into that miserable and corrupt estate that it was not able to performe that Law of perfect obedience and righteousnesse that GOD had giuen and grauen in the hartes and mindes of men by the accomplishment whereof they were to haue life and by the impeachment whereof they were to haue death eternall and that then GOD in his infinite goodnesse and mercie graunted a remedie for vs in the promised seed which should restore mankinde and treade down the serpents head which was the first preaching of the Gospell published by God himselfe apprehended by faithe beleeued by Adam Afterward of God reiterated to the holye Patriarches by them imbraced and taught to their children and families preached and foretolde by the Prophetes shadowed out in the Lawe written in the Leuitical ceremonies performed in Christ testified and published by the Apostles confirmed with signes and miracles beleeued of al nations maligned by the Deuill persecuted by the wicked in all ages and yet continued to the end of the worlde by Gods especiall grace prouidence These things wee plainely see conteyned from the first of Genesis to the last of the Reuelation which otherwise coulde neuer haue come to our knowledge In them wee may see the beginning increasing continuance and perpetuation of the church the estate and condition of it in tyme past at this present in time to come the doctrine deliuered by the holy Ghost to the Patriarches to the Prophets to

A LETTER WRITTEN BY A TRVE CHRISTIAN Catholike to a Romaine pretended Catholike Wherein vppon occasion of controuersie touching the Catholike Church the 12.13 and 14. Chap. of the Reuelations are breifly and trulie expounded Which conteine the true estate thereof from the birth of Christ to the end of the world REVEL CAP. 6. 7 Veni vide Lege perlege intellige crede viue Veni vt videas Vide vt legas Lege vt perlegas perlege vt intelligat Jntellige vt credas Crede vt viuas IESVS CHRISTVS ERO MO●SVS INFERNI TVVS OSE 13 CONFINTE VICI MV̄DV̄ IOA. 1● VE●T●●●ORS VICTORIA 1 COR. ●● Imprinted at London by Iohn Windet dwelling in Adling streete at the signe of the white Beare neere Baynards Castle 1586 FORTITVDINE ET PRVDENTIA A LETTER WRITten by a true Christian Catholicke to a Romane pretended Catholike AS it hath pleased Almightie God in these latter daies with the spirite of his mouthe to waste and consume the Kingdome of Antichrist and to erect and reestablishe the Church and Kingdome of Christ deliuering both to the Magistracie the sworde and to the Ministery the worde for that purpose so hath the Diuell and his adhaerents in no age beene more forward or furious either to sustaine the tottring towers of the one or to hinder and suppresse the increase and augmentation of the other to which end he now most carefullie armeth as it were for the last conflict with malice fraude and force his Liuetenant generall the Bishop of Rome with his freindes and confederates the fauorites of that Babilonian strumpet who seing her self forsaken her painted shewes her deceitfull toyes and trash both desciphered and despised by al sounde iudgements stormeth like another Iuno enraged with malice and madnesse carying alta mente repostum Iudicium Paridis spretaeque iniuriae formae Layd vp in deepest thought The doome of Paris and the wrong of bewty set at nought This her malice that she may the more furiouslye execute against this realme of England sometime her darling but now her infest she putteth all meanes in proofe practise that either fraude or force may minister vnto her She frameth vnto her selfe instruments of our owne nation to wreak her wrath vppon their natiue countrie she bewitcheth them with the sleights and sorceries of error and superstition and so sendeth them to allure seduce others she maketh them brokers of her bewtie extollers of her power publishers of her praises and ministers of her practises They tearme her the Sea of holines the Catholike Church the spouse of Christ the mother of the faithfull Quisquis amat ranam ranam putat esse Dianam Who so a frog doth loue loe he That frog Diana thinks to be Whereas in truth shee is the chaire of pestilence the seate of Antichrist the forge of treasons the receptacle of traitors the cage of euery filthie and vncleane bird the hell of the liuing and a seconde Babylon as it was well noted by Petrarch comparing her with the former in an epistle writtē vnto a frend Fuit illa omnium pessima eaque tempestate foedissima haec vero iam non ciuitas sed laruarum a clemurum domus est vt breuiter dicam scelerum atque omnium dedecorum sentina Viuentium etiam infernus tanto ante dauidico ore notatus quam fundalus aut cognitus Quicquid de Assiria vel Aegiptia Babilone quicquid de quatuor Labyrinthis quicquid de Averno limine deque Tartareis siluis sulphureisque paludibus legisti huic Tartaro admodum fabula est Hic Turrificus simul terrificus Nimrhod hic pharetrata Semiramis hic inexorabilis Minos hic Rhadaman thus hic Cerberus vniuersa consumens hic Tauro suppositae Pasiphae mixtumque genus quod Maro ait prolesque biformis Minotaurus inest Veneris monimenta nephandae Hic postremo quicquid confusum quicquid atrum quicquid horribile vsquam est aut fingitur aspicias c. That was of al other the worse and in that age the most filthy This nowe is not a cittie but the house of terrefiing spirits and deuils and that I may speake breiflie the sinke of all wickednesse and shameful dishonesty the hell of the liuing noted by the mouthe of Dauid so long before it was either knowne or the foundations thereof were laid Whatsoeuer thou hast reade of the Assirian or Egiptian Babylon whatsoeuer of the foure Laberinths whatsoeuer of the fal of Auernus of the hellie woods and Brimstonie marishes is vnto this Hell but as it were a fable Heere that toureformer and terrifier Nimrhod Here is the warlike harlot Semiramis Here is the vntreatable Minos here is Rhadamanthus here is Cerberus deuouring all things here is the beastlie bullouer Pasiphae and the mixed kinde that Maro speaketh of and the biformed issue Minotaurus the moniment of a wicked lust finally here thou maist behold what thing soeuer is lothsome and what horrible thing soeuer is either found or feyned But this will they not see that blinded with affection and banded into faction labor and indeuour to blinde and bewitche others seducing the ambitious with promises of honor the simple and ignorant with ostentation of learning who conceaue their hipocrisie to be pietie their superstition to bee religion their falsehoode to be faithfulnesse their reconcilement to the Romain Church and Prelat to be neither treacherie to their prince nor treason to their countrie but a safetie to their soules quietnes to their consciences and an vniting of themselues to the misticall bodie of Christ But in this Viridi latet anguis in herba Within the grasse that showes so greene An adder lurks that is not seene For in truth this their reconciliation which they perceaue not cutteth them off from the Church of Christ and maketh them the limmes and members of Antichrist vnfaithfull to God disloyall to theyr prince treacherous to their countrie as hauing vowed their obedience to the mortall enimie of all three It is a misterie replenished with mischiefe a clowd couering many cruell intentes a Troian horse full of Greekish or rather Romish Reamish wiles and wickednesse a diuelish and Popish practise a Massesecreate prouided for the Massacring of England By these meanes treasons are conspired forces are prepared monies collected euill minds vnited fires kindled within our owne bowels to the whiche forraine flames will soone bee added to cōsume vs the ministers of these mischiefes are crept vnto our Dioces they haue peruerted manye they haue reconciled many and now of late in this countrie they haue trauelled much I knowe they are not vnknowne to you and that either their woordes or writings or both haue very much preuailed with you As a gentleman I do fauour you as a seduced man I doe pitty you as a reconciled man if suche a one you be I must detest you sith thereby you haue abandoned the misticall body of Christe and haue ioyned your selfe to the mischieuous body of Antichrist In

the Apostles and the faith imbraced by the children of God in all ages there may we obserue the antiquitie that yeeldeth to no nouelties there may we see the vniuersalitie that giueth place to no schisme or diuision there may we finde that consent that grounded in veritye is polluted with no error or iniquity Therefore S. Augustine rightly iudgeth that the catholike church is to be sought in the Scriptures his words are these contra Petiliani Donat epist Si autem Christi Ecclesia Canonicarum Scripturarum diuinis certissimis testimonijs in omnibus gentibus designata est quicquid attulerint vndicunque recitauerint qui dicunt ecce hic Christus ecce illic audiamus potius si ouer eius sumus vocem Pastoris nostri dicentis Nolite credere Illae quippe singulae in multis gentibus vbi ista est non inueniuntur Haec autem quae vbique est etiam vbi illae sunt inuenitur ergo in Scripturis sanctis eam Ecclesiam scilicet requiramus If the church of Christ throughout all nations be discerned by the diuine and infallible testimonies of the Canonicall scriptures whatsoeuer they shall bring and whencesoeuer they wil alledge which saye Lo heere is Christ Lo there is Christ Let vs heare rather if we bee his sheepe the voice of our shepheard saying Doe not beleue them for al those in many nations where the same is are not founde but this same which is euery where is also founde where they are therefore let vs seeke the same church in the holy scriptures And in his treatise de vnitate Eccles cap. 16. Ecclesiam in scripturis sanctis Canonicis debemus agnoscere non in varijs hominum rumoribus opinionibus factis dictis visis inquirere We are to acknowledge the church in the holye canonicall scriptures and not to seeke it in the sundrie rumors opinions doings sayings conceits of men And againe in his 166. epistle In Scripturis didicimus Christum in Scripturis didicimus Ecclesiam has scripturas communiter habemus quare non in ijs Christum Ecclesiam communiter retineamus In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ in the Scripturs we haue learned the church this scripture we haue common amongst vs wherefore doe wee not in them likewise reteine Christ and the Church Hereunto also accordeth Chrysostome in his 49. homily vpon Math Antea multis modis ostendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi nunc autem nullo modocognoscitur nisi per Scripturas Before by many means was it shewed whiche was the churche of Christ but nowe by no meanes is it knowne but by the Scriptures Thus by the iudgement of these Fathers and by the nature of the catholike church it selfe we see that the knowledge of it is to be deriued from the scriptures which so being what can be more cleare then that neither prayers for the dead nor inuocation of Saintes nor worshipping of images nor the Popes primacie ouer the church nor his superiority ouer princes and kingdomes nor his doctrine of Purgatorie nor his power there to release soules nor transubstantiation nor the halfe communion nor monastical vowes nor forbidding of marriage nor meritorious fastes nor workes of desert and supererogation nor sacrificing Christ euerie daye nor releasing subiects of their othes of allegiance nor dispencing with Princes for periuries and incest nor sale of pardons nor offering vnto reliques nor a thousand other doctrines practises and ceremonies of the Papisticall religion were euer grounded vpon the catholike church Let the whole volume of the scriptures be pervsed you shall see none of these thinges taught beleeued practized vsed or imbraced by the catholike church examine the faith doctrine writings and documentes of the patriarches the Prophets the Apostles Christ himselfe you shall finde these things either not conteyned in them or contraried by them Try them by antiquitye you shall proue them far younger then the time of the Apostles try them by vniuersalitie you shal perceiue that neither the church before the Lawe nor the church vnder the Law nor the purest churches vnder grace did euer embrace them trye them by consent you shall finde that neither the patriarches nor the Prophets nor the Apostles nor the faithfull by them taught in sundrie churches did euer agree in them or once beleeue them it must needes bee then that they are not grounded in the catholike church but are some later inuentions and doctrine of a particuler church from whose errors and corruptions they haue proceded which particuler church is the Church of Rome which we will briefly shewe neither to be the catholike church nor to haue beene for many yeeres any sounde member of the catholike church The catholike church as we before rehearsed conteyneth all them that haue beleeued doe beleeue or shall heereafter beleeue in Christ Iesus to the end of the world The church of Rome conteyneth not all those that haue beleeued for in the dayes of many of them it had no beeing at all nor all them that doe beleeue nor all them that shall beleeue Therefore the church of Rome is not the catholike church The catholike church conteineth all partes both of the church triumphant and militant The churche of Rome conteyneth no parte of the church triumphant nor all partes of the churche militant Therefore the church of Rome is not the catholicke church Within the catholike church Christ was borne and of a blessed member of the catholike church Christ was not borne in the church of Rome nor of any member of the church of Rome Therfore the church of Rome is not the catholike church The catholike church alloweth not the adoration or deuine worshipping of any creature The churche of Rome alloweth the adoration and deuine worshipping of creatures Therefore the church of Rome is not the catholicke church The maior is the expresse sentence of S. Aug in his 2. booke de moribus ecclesiae cath cap. 30. it is also the expresse doctrine of Christ in the 4. of Mathew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Him onely thou shalt worship And of the Angell in the 19. of the Reuelat. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Before God shalt thou fall downe The minor is proued by the Nicene councel which teacheth that the image of the Trinity and the crosse are to be adored worshipped with the same kinde of adoration and worship that the trinitye Christ himselfe are to be worshipped with and by Thomas of Aquine an approued Doctor of the Romain church in his third booke of sentences the second distinction by Nauclautus Clugiensis whose words are these Non solum fatendum est fideles in Ecclesia adorare coram imaginibus vt nonnulli ad cautelam forte loquūtur sed adorare imaginem sine quo volueris scrupulo quin eo illā venerari cultu quo Prototipon eius It is not onely to be yeelded vnto that the faithfull in the church do worship before images as some happely speak for a cautell