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world_n	catholic_a	church_n	spread_v	1,934	5	10.0390	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14406	Actes of conference in religion, holden at Paris, betweene two papist doctours of Sorbone, and two godlie ministers of the Church. Dravven out of French into English, by Geffraie Fenton; Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English.	Fenton, Geoffrey, Sir, 1539?-1608.; Vigor, Simon, d. 1575.; Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591.; Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau.; L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597.	1571 (1571)	STC 24726.5; ESTC S112583	180,168	252

are or euer were and attribute it to the onely companie of those that folowed their customes and erroures as at this day the Doctoures allowe not to be of the Catholike and vniuersall Churche other than suche as folowe the traditions and abuses of the Romishe Churche Bisides as the Donatistes persecuted such as stode against their Doctrine vsing euery violence and crueltie they coulde imagine according to S. Augustines testimonie in many places so the whole worlde standes to iudge of the rage and furie as well of the Doctoures as their complices priests and hipocrite Monkes againste the poore Christians in times past like as also for the present there is none that knowes not bothe by their Sermones wrytings and conferences what hatefull and grudging mindes they beare againste the seruauntes and children of God and howe much they would delite to roote them vp if their power were equall with their desire By which may be iudged whether they or we resemble nearest the example of the Donatistes And where they say we are neuerthelesse blasphemers bicause we shake of and detest the name we Aunswere that they are also neuerthelesse reprochers and backebiters notwithstanding they denie it and disauow the title Like as the mutuall effectes on bothe partes stande as Arbitrators to which of vs these crimes and names may appertaine or be attributed And where the Doctors in the same Article say that it is a blasphemie against the bountie of God to charge him with imputacion to be Authoure of vice and sinne we confesse it with this addition that it is also a blasphemie againste his truthe to say that in him is yea and no as they doe who vnder a coloure and false pretence to establishe the omnipotencie of God affirme that in one instant he may bring to passe that one body be in diuers places which is to say that he is and is not Touching that which they say after that we erre in the groundes of the omnipotencie of God as saying that he was almightie for that he dothe what he list and that nothing can hinder or let the execution of his Councelles we Aunswers that in that we folowed the Definition of S. Augustine in the Enchiridion cap. 96. whose woordes be these verbatim truely he is not called Omnipotente by any other reason than that he dothe all that he will and that the effecte of the will of the almightie is not hindred by the wil effect of any creature Touching an other their matter of imputation againste vs in that we should say that the almightinesse of God ought not to be stretched generally to all things that mennes wit● can conceiue and imagine we Answer and vnder correction of the Doctors say we said not so but that Gods omnipotencie ought not to be stretched withoute some discretion or distinction to all things generally that men may forge and imagine in their foolishe fansies wherein it may eftsoones appeare to euery one howe they cut of and falsifie our speaches and sentences as to haue meane and coloure to slaunder vs. Against that they say after that it is a blasphemie to holde that God can doe nothing againste order we say in the contrary that to thinke and speake that he can doe any thing which is not well ordained is to blaspheme his wisdome and eternall prouidence In the Article folowing the Doctoures pretende that for one body at one instante to be in diuers places is not a thing that derogates the truthe of God we maintaine the contratrary that it would derogate bothe his truthe bicause there should be in him as is sayde yea and no and also his wisdome for that in his woorkes there shoulde be disorder and confusion and by consequent it woulde derogate his omnipotencie séeing that in his doings there would be imperfection And we say further that it would not only be againste the disposition and ordinary course of nature as the Doctors faine to thinke and vnderstande but also against the eternal and immoueable will of our God. And where the Doctoures to proue that God may doe any thing againste order affirme that he may chaunge and alter the order he hathe established in the world we confesse it but denie that in doing so he shoulde doe any thing that was disordained as for Example all the Faithfull and Christians beléeue that God in the ende will renue the state of all the worlde and yet in this time notwithstanding there shall be nothing which is not well ordained perfect and accomplished in all his partes In the Article folowing the Doctors confound the distinction proponed by vs in our Aunswere betwéene the will of God manifested that which he holds hid in himselfe and is equall to his power as we haue héeretofore amplie declared wherin the Doctors propone a false touching the wil of God manifested as taking generally that which we agréed vnto thē only in certaine particulare cases which is that God can doe more in certaine things than he hath declared he wil which no man doubtes as S. Augustine saith in his booke of perfecte iustice that he cā not wel bring to passe that a man be perfect in this worlde and so sanctifie him that there rest no more infirmitie or imperfection in him and yet he neuer declared to vs by his woorde that he would doe it But of the contrary that the fleshe will alwayes resist the spirite in all those that are regenerate in suche sorte that all the time of their liues they shal be imperfect in many partes But be it that in this case and any other like to it God can doe more than his will beares that is manifest to vs in his woorde yet it is not to say for all that but that there be other cases wherin God hathe reuealed to vs his will against the which he can not do or order any thing as for example he hathe tolde vs that he is one that he is immoueable incomprehensible altogether good wholly iust no way imperfecte and euery way true against all which things which are disclosed to vs and plainely pronounced in his woorde it is impossible to him euer to thinke say do or order any thing it is not so then that the matter proponed and debated by the Doctoures touching a body to be in diuers places at one instant is comprehended within this being as is said contrary to the truth of God which shal serue to answer their flaūders and to al else which they haue proponed in this Article as also in an other Article folowing where they say the God can not only but that he wil also bring to passe that one body occupie diuers places in one instant which shal be more impossible to them to proue the power aforesaide by the which they haue made so muche laboure hithertofore in vaine In the definition which they vse of a body in the Article folowing they say against themselues in holding that the dimensions are essentiall

firste of Auguste at seuen or eight of the clocke in the Euening 1566. AFter wée had giuen our Resolution vppon the Article of Goddes Omnipotencie wee ment not eftsoones to returne vpon that Argument as hauing already sufficiently handled it but suche is the horrour of the newe Blasphemies conteined in the laste pamphelet of the Ministers that against our saide meaning wée are forced if not to reply at the leaste to admonish them together with the Readers of this presente conference in the matter of the saide moste execrable blasphemies with suche are vrged to confesse who will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the Body of Iesus Christ in the Sacramente of the Aultare are not ashamed to deny also euen the power of God him selfe The consideration whereof as wée hope will not onely confirme the Catholikes in the faith of the saide Article but also with Goddes aide bring home againe many that are strayed and separated from the Catholike Churche vpon the vnderstanding of the detestable erroures and blasphemies succéeding with the contradiction to the Real presence of the Body of our Lorde in the saide Sacramente whiche might also serue the Ministers for their conuersion if without passion they woulde examine sincerely iudge of the reasons actes proponed touching the power of God where as resisting the Holy Sprite in place to confesse their errours they are turned into all sortes of wrongs and iniuries againste suche as of good will reuealed them misconstruing our purpose as not to tende but to deface and roote them out wherin as wée were neuer moued so muche as in thoughte so of the contrary we desired nothing more than the saluation of the Ministers togither with all suche as were fallen from the true Catholike Churche whereof what better witnesse can we prefer than that in our ordinarie preaching we persuade the people to pray to God for them only we séeke to roote vp the raigne and kingdome of Sathan and to abolish all heresies and peruerse Doctrine rather by the preaching of Gods worde than any other meane And much do we maruel that the Ministers séeme so hotly netled against vs in their laste Aunsweres séeing it is without occasion on our side as only chalenging many of our propositions to containe matter of blasphemy which they might haue suffised either to denie or disproue leauing the Readers to iudge without entring into so warme choler seeing that as they make profession of pacience and modestie so though they were vrged in iniurie yet they shuld not enforce reuēge They ought to remember the goodly titles wherwith they honoure the Catholike doctrine as with the name of superstition idolatrie impietie abhomination and many other like yea not sparing the personnes calling the Popes Bishops and Priestes Antichristes and ministers of Sathan Against which checkes we are cōtent when occasion moues to proue by Gods woorde that such titles are inconuenient no lesse to the persons than to the Doctrine preached by them And so albeit the ministers their furie deserue a sharpe replie yet to qualifie their Waspishe stomakes we will forbeare to Aunswere the iniuries that touche our persons and estates and leauing all to the iudgement of the Readers without passion we will only proceede to the pointes that concernes the Doctrine In the firste place the ministers do great wrong to vs and oures to resemble vs with the Donatistes as imputing falsly to vs to drawe the Church into a certaine place as did the Donatistes who placed hir onely in Afrike For it is moste manifest that we neither knowe nor confesse other Churche then the Catholike who as the name beares hathe bene visibly since the Apostles and stretcheth thorow all the world in what Region Countrey or place so euer the faithfull beléeuing in Iesus Christ be albeit we reuerence the Romish church as amongst others the first and principal as Ireneus Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Augustine with other Auncientes gaue hir this honor to confesse hir principally and as mother of all the other Churches And therfore with farre more iust reason that obiection might be applied against the ministers who can not say that their Churche is Catholike as hauing taken hir originall in our time séene and knowne at Geneua and founded vppon the priuate opinion of one man without that in any time before it can be shewed that any suche opion hathe bene holden in any nation what so euer which shal be handled in his order when we discende to examine the errors maintained by the Ministers against the Article I beléeue the holy Catholike Churche For the rest the Ministers oughte not to haue alleaged the violence crueltie and furie of the Donatistes againste the Catholikes seeing suche example condemnes them and their like But bicause it doth but kindle a memorie of the hurts passed which Fraunce hathe suffred by the setting on of the Ministers and for feare to stirre vp eftsoones to newe wrongs we will stay no longer vpon this spéeche shewing notwithstanding to the Ministers that the Donatistes reproched the Catholikes to endure persecution by them and that to roote them vp they solicited Emperoures and Magistrates as the Ministers doe euill applie to vs who confesse to desire firste of all the Conuersion of all Sectes and if they will not come to amendment that then by good and holy lawes the Magistrates to lay suche punishment vppon them as God be not blasphemed nor the people tormented according to the Doctrine of S. Augustine in an Epistle sent ad Vincentium contra Denatistas where he Confesseth that the Catholikes persecuted the Donatistes as of the contrarie the Donatistes afflicted also the Catholikes Onely their persecutions differed for the Catholykes dyd not execute but by the Magistrates and that procéeded of Charitie to roote vp the euil which hindered the publike peace and tranquillitie where of the contrary the Donatistes persecuted without aucthoritie of the Magistrate and procéeded of malice pretending nothing but ruine and subuersion S. Augustine allowes the firste to be good and according to God and the seconde he makes to be wicked and of the inspiration of Sathan wherin he brings many examples of the scripture we haue stand somewhat long vppon this pointe the rather to purge the slaunder which the Ministers haue laide vpon vs as that in our preachings wrytings and conference we haue not searched but their destruction and alwayes to persecute them construing it as a matter of particulare hate againste them and not of charitie and zeale to the truthe to conuert as wel the ministers as suche as are seduced and abused by them wherein we call God to witnesse and protest all the contrarie with request to the ministers to beléeue vs attending Goddes iudgement vppon it who is the only searcher of the heartes and affections of men Touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie bicause he can doe all that he will if they would haue red the wrytings of S. Thomas whose

of August 1566. THe Ministers forbearing all that is superfluous and immateriall in the wryting of the doctors as their repetitions and dissembling withal their wrongs and accustomed scoffes by which they proue muche better the spite they beare to the truthe and vs then the questions proponed we will rest only vppon the pointes which séeme to require Answere In the first place we denie to haue imposed vpon the Doctors that they haue drawne and restrained the Church into a certaine place but rather to a certaine company and to the traditions giuen folowed and approued by the same wherein we praise God that the saide Doctoures are come now to acknowledge that the Catholike Churche stretcheth thorow oute all the world and that it is not enclosed within bounds and limites of the authoritie and traditions of the Romishe Churche which as we confesse was highly estéemed of the Auncients when errors abuses and vices did not abounde in it as is happened since So nowe being so corrupted as well in manners as in Doctrine as nothing is more hateful than the woorde of God the light the truthe and vertue we say that as the estate of the saide Churche hathe bene chaunged so also oughte the value and reputation wherin it hathe dwelt And yet in what degree of honour so euer it hath ben raised in times passed the Auncients neuer estéemed it an vniuersall Churche nor hir Bishop an vniuersall Bishop as appeareth by that which S. Ierome wrytes to Euagrius and the resolution of one of the Councels of Carthage And touching the reformed Churche in Fraunce we say not that it is the Catholike and vniuersal Churche but only a member of the same and that shée hathe hir foundation not vppon the opinion or Authoritie of men but vppon the Doctrine and wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles For the rest touching the protestations of charitie zeale by the which the Doctors feare to be driuen forward into the inuectiues and pursutes which they raise againste vs and other the Faithfull by the example as they say of S. Augustine and other Bishoppes who not long since solicited the Magistrates against the Donatists Their procéedings which they haue and doe vse against vs and other the Faithful reueale plainely inoughe that with false shadowes they couer themselues with those examples Bicause euen the Catholikes which they alleage persuaded the Magistrates to vse moderation and softnesse to the Donatistes and other Heretikes prouing all meanes to reduce them afore they ministred the rigor of paines and iudgementes enforcing themselues furthermore to bridle and represse the fury of the people that they should not be put to the spoile and ouerrunne Where they of the contrarie sharpen againste vs bothe the people and Magistrates and that by slaunders and false imputations with all other meanes they can suborne to that ende Touching the omnipotencie of God and the Diffinition we haue laide of the same drawne out of S. Augustines bookes the Doctors in their laste wryting inferre no newe thing to driue vs from it For that which they alleage of the Angels to be able to doe what they will and therefore to be almightie as well as God if the diffinition aforesaide of Gods almightinesse had place is no Example either to the presente purpose or to proue that there is in Angels a power equall with God séeing it is most certaine that their wil and power depende elsewhere and that God rules ouer them to chāge suspende and stay them as it pleaseth him and as he can doe to all other creatures which can not be saide of God without blasphemie But be it in what sorte so euer if they will reprehende the diffinition of Gods almightinesse proponed by vs it is not with vs but with S. Augustine that they haue to doe for the saide diffinition was taken woorde by woorde out of his wrytings We muche maruell that hauing so amplie aduouched to them our opinion of the omnipotencie of God with declaration that it stretched indifferently to all things which mens fonde fansies coulde conceiue or imagine that yet they will eftsoones regrate vpon that pointe alleaging that God can do wisely that which the foolishe imagine fondly For it is moste manifest that Fooles may imagine many things which are impossible to God As for example that God is not as is written in the Psalme .14 and .53 that he is corporall as the Anthropomorphites did déeme that the worlde is eternall as the Peripaticiens did teache that there be two Princes as the Manicheans held All which things can not be attributed to the omnipotencie of God withoute blasphemie But in this are we best contented that touching this Article our maisters after long and sharpe debate with so many blasphemies euen when we stoode in the truthe of it are yet constrained in the ende to consent with vs and folowe the interpretation and restriction which we gaue touching Goddes omnipotencie as appeareth by one speeche of their last wryting whose woordes be these All things say they that are to be imagined of man are to be done of God without excepting any thing but suche as implie contradiction to be and not to be Then what reason is there that for suche things wherein they cōsent to vs which be excepted frō Gods almightinesse that we for excepting them shoulde be guiltie in blasphemie and not the Doctoures who say and confesse the selfe same thing This proposition that a naturall bodie euen that of Iesus Christe is in diuers places at one instante is of the numbre of those things which implie contradiction as hathe bene already sufficiently proued therfore we conclude that the omnipotencie of God oughte not to be referred and stretched so farre The Doctoures charge vs afterwardes with foure horrible blasphemies as they terme them grounding them vppon our opinion defending that one body can not be in diuers places at one instante as to resiste the truthe wisdome and omnipotencie of God this the Doctoures finde so straunge and farre from reason that they disdain to refute it thinking it is vnworthy of Answere and that only it suffiseth to recite it whereunto we Answere that to say it is a blasphemie vnworthy of Answer is an easie and most ready mean to shake of all difficulties wherwith they may be entangled The Doctoures are also importunate with vs to bring foorthe by Goddes woorde that one body can not be in diuers places at one instante whereunto we Answer once againe that it belongs to the Doctours to proue the contrary by one text of the scripture that one body may be in one instante in diuers places séeing they are proponantes and we respondents in this conference And yet we haue declared héere before by liuely reasons drawne out of the scripture and essential propreties of God the nature of bodies the Authoritie of the fathers that the matter of the question is altogither impossible and touching their argumēt containing this nature form God

vocation is necessary to suche effecte But not that this vocation is the imposition which they pretend assuring our selues that our vocation is more lawfull and better grounded than that of the Doctors Where the Doctors in the Article folowing alleage that we haue not Answered them to their sufficient liking touching the partes of the sacrament and the woord required for the consecration of the matter in the same we Aunswer that in our wrytings is no ambiguitie no darke sense nor any inuolution but suche as the Doctors list to finde there wherin as we lay our selues vppon the iudgement of the vpright hearers So also it becomes no more straunge to vs that the doctors chalenge vs of darke wryting than it was to S. Paul that his gospell was hid and couered to those that perished whose vnderstandings the God of this world had blinded Touching the presence of Iesus Christe in the supper wherin they would vrge vs to declare more amplie than in our former Aunswer we say we haue Aunswered sufficient clearly notwithstanding the doctors rest not satisfied wherof we make no greate maruell as knowing that they haue seldome in custome to be contented onlesse we consent both to their demaundes and desires which we are not nowe setled to do and much lesse that our Aunswer excéede the limits and bounds of the scripture neither in this Article of the supper nor in others but onely to folow the phrases and manners of spéeche of the same as neere as we can possibly By meane wherof for a full and resolute Aunswer we acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christe whether in or out of the supper than that which Iesus Christ declares in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn who eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud he hath life euerlasting also he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloude he dwelles in me and I in him as the liuing Father hath sent me so I goe thither bicause of my father and he that shall eate me shall liue also bicause of me Vppon the last Article which is of the concomitance we Aunswer that the Doctors demaunde was not so harde that we conceiued it not only we dissembled it as not to lose time to speake and write of such dreames wherin also we iudged the Doctors of sufficient suttletie to vnderstande that in denying them Transubstantiation was not to approue their concomitance And nowe to satisfie them we make this addition not to seke to know more than that which Iesus Christ teacheth in his woord that in the supper to participate in his flesh crucified and blud shed for remission of sinnes we must take and eat the bread and drinke the wine which are administred and not deuide or separate them in any sort the same being also defended by the Canons De confecr dist 2. Cum omne crimen Wedensday the fourtenth of August the yeare aforesaide This wryting being dispatched and sent away the Ministers not long after went to the Lord of Neuers with declaration that for their parts they had at large handled this cōference as finding the doctors by their impertinent and vain questions hitherto to séeke only to winne time without any aduauncement at al of the solution of the supper the Masse And albeit they disguised their demaundes as necessarily to tend to a prepratiue for this disputation yet they contained no other purpose than not at all to enter the conference but rather to kéepe things in suspence vntil they grew weary by which meanes this holy purpose mighte altogither dissolue breake in the ends they besoughte him humbly to aduise the Doctors without vaine varietie or change of matter to auoide the difference and refute that which the Ministers had maintained of the supper and defend that which they had cōdemned of the Masse wherein they obtained his promisse which gaue them a hope of profitable matter héereafter and such as might serue to edifie the readers and purge the greatest abuse and error that then occupied the Romishe Church All this notwithstanding there ran immediately a brute thorow the towne that Vigor was falne into a dangerous sicknesse without likelihoode of spéedy recouery the same giuing a feare to the Ministers to be intercepted in their laste hope which they doubted so muche the more as at the instant they were told that Doctor Sainctes was also gone out of Paris to the Cardinal of Loraine by which they could not otherwayes presume than that they should be enforced to a long abode in Paris without any sette exercise to occupie the time as being come thither but by chance for Spyna but made it in his way to passe into Aufon and for the other being Minister to the Church of Orleans it was not long since he was taken out of prison whether he was led in Iune afore vpon a false imputation by the enimies of Gods Churche charging him to be Author of a most pernitious wicked Boke written against the obedience to Kings and Princes by which he founde it very inconuenient for him to tarie so long in the Towne whether he came not at the first willingly For these respects they resolued eftsones to returne to the Lord of Neuers and also to tel him that séeing doctor Sainctes who might haue taried and drawne to him in Vigors place some other at his plesure was departed without any aduertisement of his returne there was also no reason of their abode stil as wel in respect of the incertaintie of their businesse as also that their Churches had neede of them for the exercise of their charge as they desired notwithstāding in the end they yelded to their propre incommoditie as to remaine there vntil the Lord of Neuers parted from Paris which shuld be vpon the ende of August being minded then to go to a Lordship of his called Conlomiers for then hauing neither the presence of the Lord of Neuers nor the company of the Doctors the Ministers were at a gaze as hauing nothing to doe nor any man to dispute withall Vpon these declarations the Lorde of Neuers deliuered them their pasport in wryting signed Lodouico de Gonzague with promisse to send vnto them the Answer of the Doctors that by the meane of the Lord de Buci S. Georg who vndertoke the charge of the businesse The Ministers for their parts promised also to be ready to returne to Paris either els to Answer from the place where they should remaine as often as the Doctors would wryte This businesse being thus setled the Ministers departed immediatly with expectation of some spéedie newes frō the Doctors from whom as yet they haue hard neither argumēt nor effect only they haue hard that thorow the citie of Paris there hathe bene publike sale of certaine wrytings within whose titles is included this woord of conference as to make séeme to the worlde that they contained matter touching the former disputations this policie was not without great profite to the Printers so vehemente was the desire of men to knowe the truthe for whose satisfying and contentment we thought good to spred abrode the matter as it passed in déede reseruing till an other time to publish that which the doctors would wryte against it if they will wryte at all and also the Ministers Answeres which shall neuer faile In the meane while let euery one make his profite of the present Contentes with prayer to the Father of all lighte to poure more and more the cleare lighte of his spirite vpon his Church in the true vnderstanding of his holy woorde for the restoring and aduauncement of the spirituall kingdom of Iesus Christe his Sonne our Lorde FINIS 2. Tim. 3. 2 Pet. Rom. 15. Iames 1. Luke 16. Luke 2. Sorbonae a College of Papists in Paris Cap. 7.18 Rom. 12.6 Cap 59. 21. Deut. 28. Rom. 8.9 Chap. 2.20.27 1. Tim 3 15 Psal. 30. Chap. 13. Hebrues 13. Rom. 10. Hebr. 11. Rom. 10. Iohn 24. Luk. 24. Hebr 12. Iohn 8. 1. Timo. 2 Hebr. 6. Actor 12. Actor 5. Luke 24 Lib. 4. Cap. 17. Sect. 29. Hebr. 4.14 Iohan. 12. Act. 7. King. 1.11 Iohn 6. Ephe. 2. Psal. 7.5.2.8 1. Cor. 15. 2. Cor. 6. 1. Cor. 1. Iohn 14 Ephe. 3. Iohn 17. 1. Cor. 4.13 Rom. 10. Iohn 6. 1. Cor. 10. Math. 26. 1. Cor. 11. Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Tit. 3. epist. ●3 ● Corrin 1. Cor. 1. In a Sermon of the supper Chap. 16. Hom. 17. epist. 29. Agaynst Faustine 1. Cor. 11. Sermo 3. ad Ephesi