of her against whose Idolatrie you dayly crye out Nor is it that Church we enquire after we know that that Cittie placed vpon a hill neuer lay hidd that Tabernacle seated in the sunne was alwayes illustrious constant permanent we can bring in reum confitentem vpon that subiect we haue conuictions from our Aduersaries owne mouthes c The surueyer of the pretended discipline 6.8 Priests of all sorts together with the people frō the topp to the toe were drowned in the puddles or dregges of poperie saith one Euen 1260. yeares the Pope and his Clergie possessed the outward and visible Church of Christians raygning without any debatable contradiction saith another d Luther de Capt. Bab. de Bap. The Popes tyrānie for many ages hath extinguished Faith c. saith a third This Idolatrous Romane Harlot then this chaire of pestilence this whore of Babylon for thus yours please to qualifie the Spouse of Christ his wholly faire in whom there is found no spott or blemish was easily found by such as euen sought her not she liued she raigned soueraignely too without contradiction entirely without limitation or reserue ouer priest and people perseuerantly euen for the space of 1260. yeares But we desire Remember I pray to haue the obligation to be ledd to the Protestants Church within the tyme prefixed to heare their sermons to see the administration of their two Sacraments onely let this be shewen and we are readie to communicate with them vnder what kinde or kinds they please But if as it indeed neuer was so it be impossible it should be proued nay if the same be publikely professed by your owne Authours saying In the ages past there was no face of a true Church for some ages the pure preaching of the word vanished e Inst l. 4. c. 1. § 11. so Caluin From 400. yeares and more the Religion of Christ was wholly turned into Idolatrie adds f in his Acts pag. 767. Fox The Church was at that tyme inuisible and could not be shewen confesseth Regius g lib. Apol. pag. 176. The Truth was then vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther c. openly pronounceth h In Apo. p. 4. c. 4. Diuis 2. I uell We say that for many ages before Luthers tyme a generall Apostasie ouerspred the face of the earth nor was our Church in that tyme conspicuous or visible to the world concludes i In exposit symb p. 400. Perkins permitt me to aske by what iniquitie are poore soules fedd or rather starued with falsitie and to conclude with that strongly reasoning Tertullian in the person of the Catholike Church saying who are you when and whence came you what doe you doe in my possession being none of myne By what right dost thou ô Marcion ô Protestant cutt downe my wood By what prerogatiue dost thou ô Valentine diuerte my fountaines By what authoritie dost thou ô Apelles transport my bounds THIS POSSESSION IS MYNE why presume you being strangers to feede and sowe herein at your pleasure THE POSSESSION IS MYNE I POSSESSE IT OF OLD I POSSESSE IT FIRST I HAVE SVRE RECORDS OR EVIDENCES FROM THE OWNERS TO WHOM THE THINGS BELONG I AM THE HEIRE OF THE APOSTLES And this by best right may the Catholike Romane Church affirme because she alone is able by her neuer interrupted succession of her Bishops to deriue her pedigree from the same Apostles Counting confidently without fearing to be contradicted by any though her verie enemyes In the first Age. Petrus Linus Cletus Clemens The 2 Age. Anacletus Euaristus Alexander sixtus I. Ye'esphorus Hyginus Pius Anicetus Soter Ileutherius Victor The 3. Age. Zephyrinus Calistus Vrbanus Pontianus Anterus Fabianus Cornelius Lucius Stephanus Sixtus II. Dionysius Felix Eutychianus Caius Marcellinus The 4. Age. Marcellus Eusebius Miltiades Syluester Marcus Iulius Liberius Felix II. Damasus Siricius Anastasins The 5. Age Innocentius I. Zozymus Bonifacius Celestinus I. Sixtus III. Leo magnus Hilarius Simplicius Felix III. Celasius I. Anastafius II. Symmachus The 6. Age. Hormisdas Ioan. I. Felix IV. Bonifacius II. Ioannes II. Agapitus Syluer us Vigilius Pelagius Ioanues III. Benedictus I. Pelagius II. Gregorius magnus The 7. Age. Sabinianus Bonifacius III. Bonifacius IV. Deusdedit Bonifacius V. Honorius I. Seuerinus Ioan. IV. Theodorus Martinus I. Eugenius Vitatianus Adeodatus Donatus Agatho Leo Benedictus II. Ioan. V. Conon Sergius The 8. Age. Ioannes VI. Ioannes VII Sisinnius Constantinus Gregorius II. Gregorius III. Zacharias Stephanus II. Stephanus III. Paulus I. Stephanus IV. Adrianus Leo III. The 9. Age. Steph. V. paschalis Eugenius II. Valentinus Gregorius IV. Sergius II. Leo IV. Benedictus III. Nicol. I. Hadrian II. Ioan. VIII Martinus Hadrianus III. Stephanus VI. Formosus Bonifacius VI. Stephanus VII The 10. Age. Ioan IX Benedict Leo Christoph Sergius Anast Lando Ioan X Leo VI. Stephanus Ioannes Leo VII Stephanus Martinus Agapitus Ioannes Leo Benedictus Ioannes Donus Benedictus Benedictus Ioannes Ioannes Ioannes Gregorius V. Syluester II. The 11. Age. Ioannes XVII Ioannes XVIII Sergius V. Benedictus VIII Ioannes XX. Benedictus IX Gregorius VII Clem. Damas Leo Vict. Steph. IX Nicol. Alexand. Greg VII Vict. Vrban Paschas The 12. Age. Gelas Calixtus Honorius II. Innocentius II. Gelestinus II. Lucius Eugenius Anastasius IV. Hadrlanus Alexand. Lucius Vrbanus Gregorius VIII Clemens III. Celestinus III. Innocentius III. The 13. Age. Honorius III. Gregorius IX Celestinus IV. Innocentius IV. Alexander IV. Vrbanus IV. Clemens Gregorius Innocent Hadrian Nicol. Martinus Honorius IV. Nicol. Celestinus Bonifacius VIII The 14. Age. Benedictus X Clemens V. Ioannes XXI Benedictus XI Clemens VI. Innocentius VI. Vrbanus V. Gregorius XI Vrbanus VI. Bonifacius IX The 15. Age. Innocentius VII Gregorius XI Alexander V. Ioannes XXII Martinus III. Eugenius IV. Nicolaus V. Cailistus III. Pius II. Paulus II. Sixtus Innocēt VII Alexander VI. The 16. Age. Pius III. Iulius Leo Hadrianus Clemens Paulus Iulius Marcellus Paulus IV. Pius IV. Pius V. Gregorius XIII Sixtus V. Vrban VII Gregorius XIV Innocentius IX Clemens VIII The 17. Age. Leo XI Paulus V. Gregorius XV. Vrbanus VIII Innocentius X. Thus did S. Irenaeus bring downe the successiō of the Church by naming the Bishops of Rome who immediatly succeeded one another from S. Peter to his tyme. And he iudges it a most ABSOLVTE DEMONSRATION Thus did Tertullian c. And he puts it downe for an EVIDENCE of TRVTH Thus did Optatus c. And he concludes that in Pope Siricius who then sate all the world agreed with them Africans in one Communion Thus did S. Augustine c. And he cōfesses it retaynes him in the bosome of the CATHOLIKE CHVRCH Thus finally doe we Catholikes to this day And we instantly demand 1. Why the like proceeding should not be held an absolute Demonstration an Euidence of Truth as well from vs as from them 2. Why we English Catholikes may not by as good right be said to agree with all the world in one Communion in Pope INNOCENTIVS who sitts at this day as the Africans in Siricius who then sate 3. Why it should not retayne vs without all he sitation or staggerring as it did Saint Augustine in the bosome of the CATHOLIKE CHVRCH Et
celebrate together the Memories of Martyrs with a religious solemnitie Religious worship both to excite imitation Sacrifice to be made fellow partners in their merits and to be helped by their prayers yet so as we offer sacrifice to none of the Martyrs but to the verie God of Martyrs Altars though we erect Altars in the Memories of Martyrs c. If then saint Augustins mynde be made good by so many and so manifest places To what end should the D. come yet coldly dropping another seeming place out of the said saint or to what purpose should I answere it Howbeit lets yet heare him speake for euery ones full satisfaction S. Augustin l. 2. contra Ep. Parm. chap. 8. Cos. IF the Apostle had said you shall haue one for your Aduocate and I will pray the Father for your sinnes what good or faithfull Christian would haue endured it or accompted him one of Christs Apostles and not rather haue looked vpon him as vpon an Antichrist Car. I answer first that by Aduocate which is indeed in the text Mediatour the D. will either haue S. Augustine after the Apostle to meane the Principall and immediate Mediatour Mediatour which if the Apostle had assumed to himselfe he had iustly bene looked vpon by all good Christians not as an Apostle of Christ but rather as an Antichrist or els the mediate lesse principall and impropre Mediatour which he must meane if he would haue the place to make any thing against a Catholike and to his purpose And such certainly the Apostle both might be and was and yet is farre from incurring the censure of an Antichrist sith S. Iohn was doubtlessy a Bishop and euery Bishop if we beleeue S. Paul Heb. 5. is taken from among men and is ordayned for men in things pertayning to God that he may offer both guifts and sacrifices for sinne which is to be some kind of Mediatour or Aduocate representing their miseries pleading their cause and mediating their reconcilement to God by Christ the onely properly true Mediatour of Redemptiō In this kind of Mediation are the Priests employed saith Ioel c. 2. Betweene the porch and the Altar shall the Priests the Ministers of our Lord weepe and shall say spare ô Lord spare thy people and giue not thyne inheritance into reproach that the heathens should rule ouer them and thus finally concludes S. Aug. in this place doe all Christiā men commend themselues mutually to one anothers prayers So farre is he from speaking against mediating in this second sense or consequently from apprehending that derogatorie to Christ our prime Mediatour I answere secondly that here againe is a whole clause left out whence the clearing of the difficultie was to be demanded to witt As Parmenianus in a certaine place put a Bishop Mediatour betwixt the people and God And how did Parmenianus put Bishops Mediatours c marrie as purifiers and iustifiers of men by their owne vertue and iustice since they the Donatists allowed vertue and effect to the Sacraments and Sacrifice onely according to the qualitie of the Minister or offerer which was indeed to assume to themselues the proper Mediation of Christ Iesus who onely of himselfe is able to appease Gods wrath against sinne as being our principal immediate primarie Mediatour and indeed our onely Mediatour of Redemption who by the right of his owne merits obtaynes grace forvs the others onely by him and by his merits Such a Mediatour it is manifest S. Aug. spake of in this place and such we admitt none but Christ alone who spake against the pride of the Donatists which forsoothe would haue no spott or vice to be amongst them or their fellowes as saith S. Augustine in the chap. immediately before which was a prerogatiue due to Christ alone who was that one and true Mediatour for whō none prayed he prayed for all as saith the said St. in this 8. chap. In fine one of S. Augustines principall designes in this place was to proue against the Donatists that they iniustly separated themselues from the Catholike Church vpon pretence of the wickednes of the Bishops and priests in the Church for dato that it were so indeed yet were that no iust cause of a diuision or schisme since be the Bishops and priests what they will we ought alwayes to be secure of one Mediatour Iesus Christ the iust whom we haue an Aduocate with the Father and he is the propitiation for our sinnes Hence I beleeue the weakest may obserue that it is not fairely done of Mr. Cos. to make vse of the mistaken sense of an obscure passage in an Authour to stagger the vnlettered who are not able to examine him while being examined he beares no shew of difficultie along with him COSENS S Irenaeus against Heresies 2. booke chap. 57. THe Church Catholike doth not inuocate Angels bnt purely calleth vpon God and Christ CARRE Still something is left out most important to the clearing of the difficultie S. Irenaeus his words are these Neither doth it to witt the vniuersall Church doc any thing by Angelicall inuocations nor by incantations nor by any other wicked curiositie these words by incantations nor by any other wicked curiositie are omitted but cleanely purely and manifestly directing prayers to God c. Now what doe these words incantations and wicked curiosities lead vs to but the old heretiques to witt the Symonians the Marcites Meandriās and Carpocratiās against whom he had spoken shewing here that the Catholike Church in working her true miracles did not vse their proceeding in working false ones which they did by the inuocation and superstitious naming of Angels to whom they ascribed the creation of the world by incantations and spells whereby they deluded many especially poore women robbing them of fortunes and honour with the exercise of innumerable villanies as is to be seene in the 9. 20. 22. and and 24. chapters of his first booke but by fasting and prayer performed chastely purely openly and without hope of lucre His words are That vniuerfall Church which is in euery place demanding by fasting and much prayer the spirit os life returned to the dead man who was giuen to the Saints prayers What is here yet I pray against the inuocation of Saints Cos. Origene against Celsus l. 5. ALl prayers are to be sent and offered vp vnto God by our Angel and high Priest who is the Prince and Lord of all Angels Nor will our Religion permitt vs to supplicate or pray to any other whom so euer Car. Answer First your choyce herein is not verie happie if you should make him stand vp alone against all antiquitie ingenous men would not esteeme his word were sufficient caution after his so many errours yea euen in this place where he destroyes Christs Diuinitie making him inferiour to his heauenly Father Howbeit if you admitt his authoritie vpon this matter so doe I and thus I produce him speaking of the Angels in the same place O
Ecclesiae the word Primatus being so Englished by the best Grammarians is giuen to Peter c. They dare sayle to the Chaire of Peter and to the Principall or chiefe Church Epis 55. ad Cornelium Papam And writing to Stephen Pope of Rome he saith Let thy letters be dispatched into the Prouince of Arles and to the people there residing whereby Marciane who being Bishop of Arles fauoured the Nouatian heresie being excommunicated another may be substituted in his place and the flocke of Christ may be gathered together which to this day is contemned being dispersed and wounded by him Optatus Mileuitanus A Bishops chaire was first conferred vpon Peter in the Cittie of Rome In l. 2. cont Parmenianum wherein the HEAD of all the Apostles Peter sate c. Victor Vticensis And especially the Romane Church which is the HEAD of all the Churches In l. 2. de Persec Van. S. Augustine l. 2. de Bap. contra Donat. Peter the Apostle in whom the Primacie of the Apostles had the preeminencie with so exceellent a grace or aduantage Againe Like as all the causes of Mastership were in our Sauiour In quaest Noui Test q. 75. so after our Sauiour they are all conteyned in Peter for he constituted him to be the HEAD of them the Apostles that he might be the Pastor of our Lords flocke Eugenius who was one of Aurelius his Successours in the Archbishopricke of Carthage The Roman Church is the HEAD of all the Churches Fulgentius de Incarn Gratia c. 11. That which the Roman Church which is the HEAD or toppe of the world holds and teaches and which the whole Christian world together with it both beleeues without hesitation to Iustice and doubts not to confesse to faluation I conclude then that since it is most euident that the Africans were for vs Catholikes both in their words and practices as well before and in the fore said Councells as after the same it is altogether in vaine for the Protestants thence to hope for any helpe or support to their Cause Now Mr. C. hauing returned you a faire full and satisfactorie answer to each of your obiectioÌ„s permit me the fauour of one of your setled answers to that one onely demand which I then made and often iterated and still iterate as being the verie summe and abridgement of all controuersies to witt where was your Church in the yeare 1500. c. till the yeare 1517. when Luther began to storme This is the rule I haue bene taught by the ancient Fathers First by Irenaeus who had the happinesse to haue seene Policarpe S Iohns scholler We saith he can number those who were instituted Bishops in the Churches by the Apostles and their successâ—urs euen vnto vs who taught or knew noe such thing as these doe madly fancie to themselues And a little after But whereas it is too long to nuÌ„ber the successions of all the Churches in such a volume as this we coÌ„found all those who by any meanes gather more then they ought either by their wicked self-complacencie or vaine glorie or els by their owne blindnes and erroneous sense by pointing out that tradition which that greatest most ancient and most knowne Church to all men founded and established at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul and by faith announced to men brought downe euen vnto vs by the successions of Bishops for vnto this Church by reason of its more powerfull principalitie euery Church ought to resort that is all the faithfull all ouer the world wherein that TraditioÌ„ which is from the Apostles is conserued by those which are all ouer vndique And so names the Popes from Linus who succeeded S. Peter c. till Eleutherius who was in his tyme of whome he saith Now Eleutherius in the twelueth place hath the Bishopricke from the Apostles and he adds By this ordination and succession the TRADITION which is in the Church from the Apostles and the proclamation of Truth is brought downe vnto vs And this is a most absolute demonstration plenissima ostensio that it is conserued in the Church from the Apostles till this day and is deliuered ouer in truth Behold the succession of Bishops is esteemed by him and deliuered vnto vs for a certaine demonstration that those who haue it on their side haue the same liuely faith conserued euen from the Apostles tyme till this day Secondly by the learned Tertullian in the same age saying In Praescri p. c. 32. Let them produce the origin's of their Churches let them declare the row or processe of their Bishops so running downe from the beginning by successioÌ„s that that first Bishop may haue had some one of the Apostles or Apostolicall men which yet perseuered with the Apostles for his Authour and Predecessour Let the Heretikes saith he a little after euen forge any such thing if they can And he counts Peter Linus Cletus Clemens Anacetus Auarestus Alexander Sixtus c. Thirdly Optatus Mileuitanus In 4 Tom. carm contra Marcion saying In that singular vnica Chaire Peter first sate to whom Linus did succeede c. to Iulius Liberius to Liberius Damasus to Damasus Siricius at this day who is our fellow with whom or in whom all the world agrees with vs in one societie of Communion by the commerce of letters formed to witt a kind of circular or communicatorie letters vsed in those tymes to discouer them to be of the same coÌ„manion Produce the origine of your chaire you who will needs challenge the Holy Church to your selues Fourthly S. Augustine In his Ep. 165. thus If the order or processe of Bishops who succeede one another be considerable how much more certainly and indeed sauingly doe we count from Peter himselfe c. For Linus succeeded Peter c. and so counting downe to Anastasius who then was Pope he coÌ„cludes in these words in this ranke or lyne of succession no Donatist Protestant Bishop is found c. Now to know of what consideration and weight the succession is with the same S. Augustine le ts take it from himselfe in his Ep. Fundamenti cap 4. where he professeth that the succession of priests from the verie Sea of Peter the Apostle till this present Bishop-pricke most iustly retaynes him in the bosome of the Catholike Church That this is a reasonable demand in it selfe I am most confident because Fathers so learned and able prouoked to it in their tymes with so much confidence and taught others to doe the same It is necessarie saith Tertullian Praescrip c. 20. that euery familie should be brought backe and reduced to its origine And that it is reasonable in particular from vs it seemes no lesse euident because what we demand we are readie to exhibite to discerne whether you or we are true successours to S. Peter we name our men immediatly from him who haue succeeded one another till this day till this present
the Almner A certaine man was lead captiue to the Persians and was shut vp in prison But some flying thence and coming in to Cyprus and being asked by his parents whether they had seene him there they made answer and said we buried him with our owne hands It was not indeed the man where of they were asked but another not vnlike to him and withall they signified the moneth and day of his death And they his parents as if he had bene deceased indeed made three Collects be made for him euery yeare But after three yeares making a scape from the Persians he returned into Cyprus whre upon his friends said to him truly brother we heard you were dead and we made à memorie of you thrice a yeare When he heard they had made memories of him thrice a yeare he asked them in what moneth they celebrated theÌ„ and they answering c. he said that in those three tymes a yeare there came one as bright as the sun and freed me from my iron chaynes and prison c. OBSERVATION The custome of praying for the dead in the beginning of the 7 â—h Age proued and approued from heauen by miracle Maximus The prayers of the iust doe onely profit those who are worthy of mercy whether they be aliue or dead c. From this place he begins to expound that prayers doe profit the dead and declares that this question had bene agitated before that tyme. S. Damascene And who is able to declare the multitude of restimonies touching these things in order as they are put in the liues and diuine reuelations of Saints wherby it is euidently showen that those prayers Masses and Almes which are offered for them doe greatly profit the dead euen after death This is the will of that mercifull Lord and it is acceptable to him that all of vs as well in our life tyme as after the end of our labours should one helpe another nor had he otherwise afforded vs this occasion that in the vnbloudie sacrifice memorie should be made of those that are departed this life Nor that we should celebrate Masse sacra in memorie of them in the third ninth and fortieth day or at the yeares end which yet the Catholike and Apostolike Church constantly obserues without all controuersie vnlesse it were aggreable in his sight OBSERVATION That it is an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolicall Church to make memorie of the dead in the vnbloudie sacrifice as a thing which doth greatly profit them No such memorie is made at all in the Protestant Church of England Theophylact. c. 12. vpon S. Luke The sinners which dye are not alwayes sent into Hell Gehennam but they are in Gods power to be dismissed and this I affirme in respect of the oblations and distributions which are made for the dead which doe not a little conduce euen to such as dyed in great sinnes He doth not therefore hauing killed alwayes send into Hell he hath power indeed to send yet makes not still vse of this power c. but remittes certaine sinnes c. Will you rather heare the sense of the later and present Greeke Church vpon this subiect to see if they contradict their ancient Fathers as you doe Heare it then speake first as it is put downe in the Councell of Florence in the 3. Decree in these tearmes Item we define that if persons truly penitent departed this life in the loue of God before they had yet done satisfaction for commissions and omissions by worthy fruites of repentance their soules shall be purged with purging paynes And that they are helped to be freed from such paynes by the suffrages of the faithfull yet liuing to witt by the Sacrifices of Masses prayers Almes and other offices of pietie which are wont to be performed by the faithfull for the faithfull according to the Churches institutions OBSERVATION Behold a generall Councell aboue 200. yeares agoe consisting of 141. Bishops as well of the Greeke as Latine Church called by Pope Eugenius the 4. at the instance of the Emperour of the East who presided in person the Patriarke of Constantinople being also present Defines that soules departing this life without doing full satisfaction for their sinnes suffer purging paynes and are thence released by Masses c. according to the custome and Institution of the Church Secondly as it is deliuered by Hieremi Patriarke of Constantinople in his answers to the Diuines of Wirtemberg about the yeare 1578. as followes It is not in vaine established by the Apostles Taken out of Chrysost hom 69. ad pop Ant. 3. vpon the Philip. that in the dreadfull mysteries mention should be made of the Dead They know that heÌ„ce great prosit and great vtilitie doth accrue vnto them for when all the people doth stand with hands lifted vp and all the companie of the Priests and the dreadfull Sacrifice is proposed how is it possible that we should not worke their Lord to take pittie on them or be mercifull vnto them by praying for theÌ„ OBSERVATION Loe mention or commemoration made of the dead in the dreadfull mysteries or Masse and that with much profit as being the meanes whereby God is moued to mercy And marke that we haue not this from a priuate man or a man of small note or vpon some light and slight accompt but euen from the great Patriarke of Constantinople the second or new Rome vpon an occasion most pregnant to produce a precise profession of the faith of the Greeke Church since it was sent to another part of the world where it was not like to passe in priuate but was lyable and likely to be discussed to the full by a people to witt the Diuines of Wittemberg who in lieu of being admitted into their communion found their expectatioÌ„s foâ—â—lely frustrated their profession of faith which they sent to be approued opposed and affronted and their Doctrine reiected as not aggreeing with the Greeke Church Thirdly as it is expressed in the Synodicall Decree of Parthenius present Patriarke of CoÌ„stantinople vpon the renets of Caluin printed in Paris 1643 Lastly saith he to find a pretext to reiect the fire of Purgatorie he Caluin goes about to repudiate or reproue our ordinarie and lawfull CoÌ„memorations for the dead whereby we hope that God will grant rest to them and a refreshing or tyme of breathing from the vexations or torments acerbitates which doe afflict them The same is deliuered by the Liturgies or Masses of S. Basile the great and S. Iohn Chrysostome The first in these tearmes The Priest with a loude voyce beseeches God to be myndfull of all who haue departed this life Let him recreate them in his Tabernacle let him lead them through horrid Mansions and place them in lightsome Tabernacles Let him deliuer them out of most thicke darknesses tribulatioÌ„ and dolour least he should enter into iudgement with them Let him pardon them what euer as men they may haue offended while they
but rather repugnant to the word of God In fine S. Damascene Deliuers it for an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolike Church to make memorie of the Dead in the vndloudie Sacrifice But the Prot. Church of England will haue it to be a fond thing vainely inuented and the Sacrifice of the Masse ablasphemous fable a dāgerous deceipt rather repugnant to the word of God See what a goodly accord there is betweene the ancient Greeke Fathers and our new Reformers or rather behold their apparently iarring and irreconcileable discord which the smoothest witt is not able euen speciously to appease or to tune it vp to any their least aduantage Their stale and cold replies drawen from the diuersitie which they pretend to be amongst Catholikes themselues vpon this subiect gaine no credit nor are of any moment with rationall men As That they agree not about the place where Purgatorie should be Nor about the Tormentors whether Angels or Deuills Nor about the torments whether by fire or water or neither Nor about the causes of the torments of Purgatorie whether veniall sinnes onely or mortall sinnes also for which full satisfaction hath not bene made in this life Nor about the tyme which the soules tormented may remayne in Purgatorie c. Nor about their state c. For all these things swarue from the purpose as not coming home to the state of the question betwixt vs and the English Protestants which is Whether there be a Purgatorie not where the place of Purgatorie is who are the Tormenters what torments there be whether pure and true fire or some other thing equiualent c. of all which we pronounce with S. Basile Superuacua in Ecclesia sileant Let not superfluous and vnnecessarie questions be heard of in the Church especially so farre as to confound matter of Faith with matter of opinion Now these things touching the place of Purgatorie c. passe among Catholikes for matters of opinion not of Faith and are with amitie humilitie and submission disputed in our schooles but haue not yet bene defined in our Councells whence the beleife or not beleife of them are of free choyce amongst vs we being neither made of the number of the faithfull by that nor miscreants by this We are not of those presumptuous soules who thinke to haue accesse to all the diuine secrets while we know by Saint Paul that we are none of his Counsellours We are willingly persuaded by S. Basile to prayse what we haue receiued vpon the accompt of faith and what hath bene deliuered ouer in trust to vs but doe not curiously sound hidden mysteries We finally receiue of the Catholique Romane Church that there is A Purgatorie and of that we dare not doubt but where and what it is c. she hauing of that deliuered no Decree in all humilitie we dispute nor doe our doubts therin violate touch or call in question the beleife of Purgatorie that stands still vndoubted and inuiolable Since therefore all the Easterne Bishops and Fathers as we haue seene deliuer the same doctrine with one heart one mouth one faith touching purging fire c. Prayer Almes Sacrifice for the dead c. wherby great rest is procured to their soules may not I iustly admire to heare one man stand vp and affirme the cōtrarie and that with so much confidence as that he feared not to passe his word to yeald himselfe à Catholike vpon the proof of it Contra Iulianum l. 2. s. 2. and may I not with iust offence speake to him in S. Aug. words saying To what purpose doc these your words serue but to make euident to the world either how negligent you haue bene to acquaint your selfe with the words and sence of Catholike Doctors in this behalfe or hauing vsed diligence to know them with what fraude you goe about to circumuent the ignorant c. Si nesciens hoc fecisti cur non miseram respuis imperitiam si sciens cur non sacrilegam deponis audaciam si cernis cerne tandem tace Pelagianam Lutheranam linguam tot linguis Catholicis deprime tot venerandis oribus proterua ora submitte Hitherto I haue insisted vpon the productions of the Greeke Fathers authoritie onely because the challenge called thither alone though I could haue vsed a more sure and satisfactorie way the Scriptures as they are vnderstood both by the Greeke and Latine Fathers together with the practice of the whole Church of God and haue said with S. Augustine Vbisupra I conceiue that part of the world ought to suffice you in which it pleased our Lord to crowne the first of his Apostles with a most glorious Martyrdome if you would haue giuen care to Blessed Innocentius presiding ouer that Church you had forthwith freed your perilous youth from the Pelagian Lutheran snares For what could that holy man haue answered to the African Councells Anglicanis conuicijs but what the Apostolicall and Romane sea holds with the rest of the Churches c. There is no reason therefore to prouoke to the Bishops of the East because they two are Christians and that faith of both the parts of the world is one and the same because faith it selfe is Christian and certes the Westerne part brought you out the westerne Church did regenerate you c. It rest that I make the great Saint Augustine alone speake for the practice of the Latine Church and himselfe because I perceiued by a paper which M◠Cosens himselfe presented me with that he had vsed some endeauour to drawe him to his side or at least if he could preuayle no further to render his testimonie doubtfull to the end that he or others might build wood hay stubble or worse vpon that mistaken foundation which he doth most clearely in these ensuing passages S. AVGVSTIN CONF. lib. 9. cap. 12. The Sacrifice of our price is offered for her Sacrifice offered for her soule And. c. 13. booke the same Now I beseech thee heare me for the sinnes of my Mother He prayes for her sinnes Againe a little after She desired onlie that à Memorie should be made of her at thy Altar She desired to be remembred at the Altar at which she serued without intermitting any day where she knew the holie victime was dispensed wherby the hand-writing was blotted out which was contrarie to vs. To these passages some haue made answer that they doe admitt prayer for the Dead a Commemoration to be made for them at the Altar yea and Sacrifice to be offered also Howbeit not as we meane to deliuer them from their paines but for diuers other effects And that thereby we cannot enforce a Purgatorie nor did S. Augustine speake of purging fire Let the holy Father therefore answere for himselfe S. Augustine li. 2. c. 20. de Genesi against the Manichees After this life he shall haue either purging fire Purging fire or eternall punishment So farre are anie from escaping this sentence
hic murus aheneus esto AN ANSVVER TO A LIBELL WRITTEN BY D. COSENS AGAINST THE GREAT Generall Councell of Laterane under Pope Innocent the third Wherein the many and great errors of the said D. Cosens are manifested to the world By THOMAS VANE Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge 2. Tim. 3.13 But euill men and seducers shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued Printed at PARIS Anno Dom. 1646. With Permission Approbation TO THE MOST NOBLE AND MOST ACCOMPLISHED Gentleman Sr KENELME DIGBY KNIGHT c. SIR I doe not dedicate this crauing your protection thereof against calumny and censure the greatest Princes I know cannot doe it yea their owne persons are not censure-proofe against the meanest varlets Nor hereby to engage you to any fauour or defence thereof beyond the direction of your owne iudgment your free minde I know disdaynes to stoope to such a lure and mine to cast it out Let the booke suffer its owne fate for so it will hee that finds fault with it let him tell mee so and if I cannot defend it I will acknowledge the error Nor to take occasion to flatter you you are aboue it and impossible attempts vanish euen in the vndertaking Nor yet to pay you your due prayse I am below it and Fame her selfe dischargeth that debt borrowing the tongues of all men for her helpe But to testifie the honour I beare you for your transcendent worth in your selfe and the gratitude for your great fauours to mee It wants proportion I confesse to either which proceeds from my pouerty of materialls but as small pictures compar'd with greater tables so this being all I haue to offer may present mee as liuely though not so largely SIR Your most humble and obliged seruant THO. VANE TO THE READER READER Doctor Cosens since his coming into these parts hath writtē diuers papers against the Catholique doctrine and beliefe and hath shewed them or deliuered the substance of thē in discourse to diuers persons thereby to draw them or keepe them from the Catholique Communion who not hauing ability or leisure to examine their truth I beleeue thought better of them than they deserued These papers of his came afterwards into the hands of seuerall Catholiques and each one answered that which hee hapned on or which was if any was more particularly addressed to him which is the reason that hee hath more answerers than one though to them all any one was more than enough Amongst his papers this against the fowrth Councell of Lateran came to my hands to which I soone after returned a briefe answer and so the matter rested but hearing since that hee and some that thinke well of him haue triumphed in these his workes as though hee had gayned great victories that I might vndeceiue them for so much as I vndertooke if at least they will suffer it and to informe all others that please to reade I thought good à little to enlarge my former answer and to print it with Mr. Carres And others there are at least one other that I know who if hee thought fit to print what hee hath written in answer to Doctor Cosens could perhaps discouer more corruptions of his than we haue done But heere are more than enough to warrant vs to say of him as a 1. kings 25.25 Abigal said of Nabal for by his deeds he makes true the significatiō of his name and that they that rely on him will bee like those that leane on a broken reedy staffe which will run into their hands and wound insteed of supporting them D. C. OF THE GREAT GENErall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third said to bee Maximum celeberrimum Concilium Anno Domini 1215. MAXIMVM for the number of eight hundred Priors and Abbots who had no voyces in Councells but by priuiledge from the Pope was as great againe as the number of the Bishops Celeberrimum for it was euery where famous for this one thing of speciall note in it that so many men met together to no purpose met but did nothing Therfore of this so Great and so famous a Councell these be the words of Platina who was the Popes owne Secretary in vita Innocent III. Venere multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit quòd Pisani Genuenses maritimo Cisalpini terrestri bello interse certarent Eò itaque proficiscens tollendae discordiae causa Pontifex Perusii moritur And to the same purpose are the words of Matth. Paris in Historia minori who liued in the same time when this Councell was called together Concilium illud Generale quod more papali grandia prima fronte prae se tulit in risum scomma desiit quo Archiepiscopos Episcopos Abbates Decanos Archidiaconos omnesque adid Concilium accedentes ludificatus est For after the Pope was gone to appease the tumults betweene the Genuenses and them of Pisa there was nothing done Et cum nihil geri in tanto negotio cernerent redeundi ad su a cupidi veniam sigillatim petierunt Quibus Papa non concessit antequam sibi grandem pecuniam promisissent quam a mercatoribus Romanis prius accipere mutuò Papaeque soluere coacti sunt antequam discedere Roma potuissent Papa iam accepta pecunia quaestu osum Concilium dissoluit gratis tot usque Clerus abiit tristis ANSWER It was called Maximum you say for the number of eight hundred Priors and Abbots who had no voyce in Councell but by priuiledge from the Pope was as great againe as the number of the Bishops T is true that it was iustly called maximum partly for this reason though not for this only for the number of voyces not only of Bishops who haue their suffrages by common right but euen of Abbots and Priors who haue theirs by the Popes grant doth mainly contribute to the greatnesse of a Coūcell Yet suppose the greatnesse of this Councell be to be measured by the nūber of Bishops only how many can there be named greater but very few in the world and therfore it may well be called Maximum And Celeberrimum also not that so many met together but did nothing as you say but because there were present the Pope in person two Patriarchs in person and the other two by their Legats the Greeke and Roman Emperours by their Legats the Ambassadours of the kings of France Spaine England Hierusalem and Cyprus with others as I shall proue anon But if to be famous for doing nothing and for being to no purpose deserue the title of Celeberrimum these goodly obiections when they are well knowne will iustly beare that title on their brow You further tell vs that Platina whose words you cite was the