Selected quad for the lemma: world_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
world_n	catholic_a	church_n	communion_n	2,376	5	9.1446	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

argument according to the Protestant Relator M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose Faith is perpetual and vnchanged so as the names of the Professors may be shewed is so visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretendeth the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose Faith is perpetual and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot be shewed in al ages is visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I denie it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What answer you to the Conclusion also This is a straine of new Logick This idle exception M. Fisher attending to the matter did not regard but might haue told him That it is not vnuseal after a distinction made both to Maior and Minor to apply the like to the Conclusion For although it be true That in a Syllogisme when Maior and Minor are absolutely granted the Conclusion must not be denyed nor distinguished but must be absolutely granted yet when Maior and Minor also be distinguished the Conclusion may be distinguished And I maruaile what Rule of Logick D. Featly can bring against this In like manner if D. Featly did say any such words as the Relator telleth viz. A strange distinction of the eternitie of Faith by Professors to be named and not to be named What are Professors nominable or innominable to the eternitie of Faith If I say D. Featly did say these words it is like M. Fisher did not regard them as being impertinent but might haue said That this distinction had not relation to eternal Faith but to a Church which hath eternal Faith about which it imports much to know whether it hath Professors nominable or innominable For if it hath not it is inuisible or at least not so visible as the true Catholike Church of which al sorts in times past haue learned and in time to come must learne the infallible Diuine Faith necessarie to Saluation ought to be Therefore M. Fisher might wel though I thinke he did not say as the Relator telleth Tolle distinctionem and conclude that which I denie That the Faith of the Protestant Church is so eternal as the names of visible Protestants in al ages may be shewed To proue this D. Featly made this argument according to the Protestant Relator D. Featly That Church whose Faith is the Catholike and Primitiue Faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetual as the names may be shewed in al ages But the Faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholike Faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Ergo The Faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetual as the names may be shewed in al ages Note here That the Relator putteth in the Margent ouer-against the Minor Tollitur distinctio But how false this Marginal Note is appeareth to any who wil reflect vpon what the Distinction was and what I haue now said of it For this Minor speaking onely of Faith doth not take away the distinction applyed to the Church That which D. Featly thinketh to be a straine of new Logicke to wit to distinguish vpon a proposition without applying the distinction to any particular tearme is not so strange as he maketh it As for example When one saith An Aethiopian is white neyther the tearme Aethiopian alone nor the tearme White alone in it selfe needeth distinction because it is not Aequiuocal but the whole proposition being Amphibological needeth it being true if it be meant The Aethiopian is white in the Teeth and false if it be meant He is white in his whole Bodie To the argument M. Fisher said I denie the Minor But marking that hereupon D. Featly would haue transferred the Question to endlesse disputes about particular Controuersies from the present general Question about the perpetual visible Church whose Professors names as himselfe saith may be shewed in al ages M. Fisher I say marking this would not let D. Featly make his proofe but hauing said I denie the Minor he presently added by way of explication these ensuing words My first Question was Whether there must not be a true visible Church of Christ in al ages of which al sorts must learne that infallible Faith which is necessarie to Saluation and therefore we must first finde such a Church before men can know it to be such as they may securely learne of it what is the infallible Faith necessary to Saluation While M. Fisher was beginning to make this explication D. Featly insulted as if M. Fisher durst not for Conscience denie the Minor absolutely To whom M. Fisher said I doe absolutely denie it And then he went forward with the aforesaid explication Which ended M. Fisher said And hereupon I answer againe to the said Minor If this proposition be taken simply in it selfe I absolutely denie it but if this proposition be considered as it must be as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde That it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended viz. To shew to those who were not able by their owne abilities to finde out the infallible Faith necessarie to Saluation without learning of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently Visibilitie of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shal be shewed To this as the Relator saith D. Featly replyed viz. First What speake you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out Faith Is any man able by his owne abilitie without the helpe of Diuine Grace Secondly What helpeth the Visibilitie to confirme the Truth of the Church Visibilitie indeed proues a Church but not the true Church These words eyther were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them being in the middest of his answer in which he went on shewing the necessitie of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the Controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leysure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among al the Societies of men in the World is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the Pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her Direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say being busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered First That he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without helpe of Gods grace to attaine the true Faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that abilitie of Wit and Learning by which they can

to insert heere as followeth Right Honourable Lord. I esteeme it a speciall prouidēce of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherin D. White and D. Featly vndertooke to shew against me my companion that the Protestant Church had been visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in all Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substāce of all the proofe to haue consisted in this That the true Church was alwayes so visible as the Professors therof in all Ages might be named But the Protestants was the true Church we refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferred the question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to proue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily suspected Certainly heerby they are so farr from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprise they vndertooke as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it for hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church which is so visible as the true Catholike Church ought to be and the Church whose fayth is eternall and vnehanged must be is able to name her Professors in all Ages eyther for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set downe the Names of their Professors in all Ages or els they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yealding as they did to shew the continuall visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they sticke in the first Age alone refusing to name their Professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tryed May not the Answerer choose to deny which parte of the Argument he pleaseth And was it euer heard that he should be inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogisme or Induction were fully propounded Very Nobly therfore prudently your Lordship in the end desired another meeting not doubting that your owne party within 3. or 4. dayes would be content to giue vs the Names of their Professors in all Ages as we were ready to giue them the Names of ours that therby both sides might be the better prepared for a second Tryall which whē they haue performed we shall not fayle to encounter with them eyther by way of speach or wryting as your Lordship all things considered shall thinke fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of Truth But if your Lordship shall not be able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and important Request the defect of proof on their part must needs be accounted a plaine flight and no man hereafter can prudently relye his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall visibility proued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and faygned Thus expecting the yssue heerof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine this first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ Iohn Fisher. By this Letter it may appeare how willing M. Fisher and M. Sweete were and yet are of their part to haue the matter soundly prosecuted eyther by meeting or wryting And I haue heard that the Earle to whome this letter was written did send to D. Featly so as although there be a prohibition of meeting yet it is expected that by way of writing D. Featly goe forward to performe his vndertaken Taske and setting downe first the Names of such as he iudgeth to haue been Protestant Professors in euery Age since Christ And then prouing out of good Authors those whome he nameth to haue byn members of the Protestant Church not condemning any one point wherin Protestants at this day do differ from the auncient and Roman Church and especially in any one of the 39. Articles which English Protestant Ministers are sworne vnto and therfore so long as D. Featly and D. White shall be silent and not so much as by writing giue a Catalogue of Names of the Professors of their Church all sorts of people may iustly take this their fayling for a flight and for a silent graunting that they haue not had visible Protestants in all Ages whose Names may be shewed out of good Authors as the question required Wherupon followeth that the Protestant Church is not the true Church of Christ nor the Preachers theroflawfully sent to teach nor people securely warranted to heare and learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by Fayth necessary to saluation CHAP. III. Of the yssue of the Conference THe Protestant Relator sayth that the issue of the Conference was that the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Syr Humfrey Lynd gaue him many thākes for the sayd meeting and assured him he was well resolued now of his Religion that he saw plainly that it was but the Iesuits bragging without proofes and wheras formerly by their Sophisticall perswasions he was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests cōpany and their doctrine also I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator sayth is not true for therby he maketh the old Gentleman to be but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature For first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speach should be made by the Gentlemā to Syr Humfrey If immediatly after the Conference it would argue toto much want of capacity for if he did but rightly conceiue the true state of the question in which himselfe had especially desired to be satisfied as I verily hope he did he might easily haue marked the insufficiency of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the Audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off to produce Nàmes of Protestāts in all Ages the which producing of Names being so often and earnestly required to be done in all Ages and yet being only pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Cōference being so abruptly left of by D. Featly before he would go forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther as the Question required any meane capacity might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to be satisfied was not fully

answered nor consequently he satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman being present whē the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another tyme come againe to giue Names of Protestants in other Ages he might easily and doubtles did vnderstand that as yet Names in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which he expected answere Furthermore presently after he went away from the Conference he told M. Fisher himselfe that he was glad that at the next meeting his Question should be answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dayes after all the trouble and styrre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not so resolute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M. Sweete he desired them to giue him a Catalogue of Names of Professors of the Romā Church saying that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants he should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweete haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctours to make theirs ready that he may bring to them the Doctours Catalogue with one hand and receiue theirs with the other to deliuer to the Doctours All that can be suspected is that in the very tyme of the sayd styrre when the old Gentleman eyther was or feared to be called in question it may perhaps be that he might say those words which the Relator mētioneth but this if it were was only vpon frailty or humane feare of trouble and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference sith both before and after he shewed a contrary mynd as hath byn sayd As for other idle and false reports of a great Lady or any other Catholiks sayd to haue ben turned Protestants vpon this Conference I neglect them as being notoriously false It may be that some Weaklings who not being present at the Conference nor hauing commodity to heare what passed but from the lying lyps of some Protestants Who reported that Fisher was ouercome and had yielded Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants some Weaklings I say might perhaps be staggered vntill they heard the true report that this was only an impudent slaunder vttered by D. Featly but in words and deeds contradicted by M. Fisher. But I make no question so soone as these shall see or heare what is heere related they will be well satisfied and confirmed in the Catholike truth and that euen Protestants themselues will be moued to harken more after the matter And in case their Doctours doe not giue them a better Catalogue of Names of Protestants in all Ages then they did in this Conference they will doubt as they haue cause that the Protestant Church hath not byn so visible in all Ages as euen by D. Featly his argument is proued the true Catholike Church ought to be and consequently that it is not the true Catholike Church which in their Creede they professe to belieue and out of which as euen Caluin confesseth they cannot hope for remission of their sinnes nor saluation of their soules CHAP. IIII. Contayning a Reuiew and Reflection vpon the Premisses NOw hauing made an end of this Relation I am to intreate the Gentle Reader to reuiew it or reflect vpon it and to call to mind and marke 1. The occasion and consequently the end of the disputation 2. The Question and true meaning of it 3. What Methode was most fit to haue been obserued in treating of this question 4. What course was taken by the Protestant Disputant what by the Catholike Respondent All which being duely considered thou wilt better see what is to be iudged of the whole Conference and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the matter treated in it then perhaps hitherto thou hast done §. 1. About the Occasion and end of the Conference 1. The occasion of this Dispute was as thou hast heard in the Relation that a certaine old Protestant Gentleman was told as the truth is that there is no saluation out of the true Catholike Church and that to belieue the Catholike Church is one of the Articles of the Creed which euery Christian is bound to belieue and know and that this Church was no other besides the most auncient and vniuersally spread ouer the world the knowne Catholike Roman Church which hath had and can yet shew visible Pastours other Professors in all Ages and that the Protestant Church wherof for the present he was a member sprung vp of late and could not be the true Church of Christ as not hauing had as Christs true Church ought to haue Pastours and Doctours and lawfully sent Preachers so visible as the Names of them may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors And this was the occasion of the dispute for heerupon the old Gentleman was so much moued in conscience to doubt of the Protestants Religion that he could not be quiet till he had made meanes to get this matter discussed in a Conference betwixt Catholike and Protestant Deuines in such sort as in the Relation hath byn told And therfore the end of this Conference was to giue this old Gentleman and others that should heare it satisfaction in this most important necessary point I call this point most important and necessary in regard the certainty of euery other point belieued by infallible diuine Fayth necessary to saluation dependeth vpon it For although euery point belieued by diuine Faith be in it selfe most true and by reason of the Diuine reuelation made knowne to the world by Christ his Apostles most certaine and infallible yet this truth infallible certainty therof is not made knowne to vs according to the ordinary course of Gods prouidence but only by the meanes which God hath appointed to wit by Pastors Doctors and Preachers of the true visible Church of Christ. §. 2. About the Question and meaning of it The Question propounded to be treated in the Conference vpon the occasion and for the end aforesayd was Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all Ages especially in the Ages before Luther and whether the Names of such visible Protestants may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors The reason why this question was proposed rather then any other was for that the old Gentleman was already perswaded that there must be in all Ages a visible Church of Christ hauing in it visible Pastors Doctors and lawfully sent Preachers who are by Almighty God appointed and authorized to teach and of whom all sorts of people are commaunded warranted to learne infallible Fayth necessary to saluatiō And further that this Church and these her Pastors Preachers haue byn in all Ages past not only visible but so visible as the Names at least of some Pastours teaching and some people learning the true Fayth in all Ages might be produced