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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

of Grace and Knowledge and the word plainly shews that they did all at first appear to be Saints though they afterwards degenerated and fell to disobedience yet they retained the Name till actually excommunicated Now more particularly to your Argument The Antecedent of your first Syllogism I deny The Minor also of the 2d if you adde as you must or else you do nothing in their first constitution The Major in the 3d. I own in the first branch but deny the Minor in both branches To your Minor in the 4th which you say cannot be denied I have these things to say to the former branch of it first That there may be some truly in Gods favour in your Parishes I grant but this doth not prove those societies wheresoever they are visible Saints except those others had formerly visibly been in that condition for some of Gods people have been and may be in Babylon Rev. 18. 4. yet Babylon no society of Saints 2ly You say the Apostle bids ns account men ignorant and wicked if they be not obstinately and wilfully so brethren it is true but whether were they to be accounted brethren as ignorant and wicked or as having been first visibly holy and still in hopes of recovery this latter is evident Now these in your Parishes who are ignorant and wicked though not wilfully obstinate never were visible Saints as these Thessalonians were such who were in God the Father ver 1. Elect of God ver 4. Followers of the Apostles ver 6. and of the Lord such as had received the word of God Chap. 2. 13. Followers of the Church of God ver 14. such whose faith grew exceedingly and charity of every one to each other abounded 2. Epist 1. 3. c. Now of these worser sort of your Members there could never be any such thing affirmed they never being in that condition therefore this Scripture doth not prove the worser sort brethren 3ly Far wide is it to say the worst of all be Professors of the true faith because they profess in words that Christ is the Son of God c. for that profession with the Mouth joined with denial in practice is a lie 1 John 2. 3. A man cannot serve two Masters but his servants they are to whom they obey now the worst of your members following the works of the Divel he is their Master I wonder that you wander so far about keeping such a coyl about the Churches that were fallen from what they were at the first when you well know that before ever you can apply any of these Scriptures rightly to your purpose you must make your Parishes in the first forming like those viz. visible Saints either resolve to speak home to your question or say nothing Either you must say that a Church may be formed up in its first Constitution of visible Saints and visible wicked or else of visible Saints the former I think you will never affirm if you own the latter as I think you do I earnestly intreat you to shew prove that all the Parishes of this Nation in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints except you do this all parallels between you Sardis Corinth c. will never help you if you say they were all Professors of the true faith at their first constitution and so fit matter which I think is all that can be said I answer those that at their first constitution were for the most part abhominable disobedient and to every good work reprobate they were not all Professors of the true faith but the 8432. as I think Parishes of this Nation at their first constitution were for the most part such Ergo the Major is undeniable for works words are to be joined together to the making up of a true profession The Minor I prove thus If the greatest part of the men in the mentioned Parishes did at their first constitution onely profess to know God and in works deny him then they were abhominable c. but they did so Ergo the Minor is manifest the consequent is the Apostles Titus 1. 16. more shall be said of this in answer to the next Argument Now to the latter branch touching the Parochial Assembly being conjoined in Covenant which is evinced by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicite Covenant Though I might well let this pass for I deny a Covenant to be the form of the Church and therefore you have little reason to say this is our definition of a Church for though I own it in the first branch yet not in the second yet notwithstanding seeing you undertake to prove your Churches by this to be true in form they fall short of what they who make this definition intend by it and what it holds forth I shall speak something to it thus This combining or conjoining c. is by them who are called though falsely independently the form of the Church whereby first they know themselves from all other societies in the world and 2ly whereby they are ingaged to a special watch over each other Now this which you speak of that you have viz. A constant meeting every Lords Day c. is neither of these for first this meeting thus together carries with it no note of the Church from the world at all for seeing that all may come to hear and many in the world that are not of the Church may come to one place constantly to serve God how is this possible to distinguish the Church and the world asunder they can never be known either by others or themselves and 2ly this combining conjoining c. ingages them together as members of one body to a special watch over each other c. Now to meet together every Lords Day c. is no such thing for if that be an incorporating into the Church if that be the form of the Church there needs no more to enter a man into the Church but comming to worship God every Lords Day which is ridiculous for then a man may make himself a Member of any Church whether they will or no neither doth this ingage them to any watch at all over each other for if it ingage one then all that so come and then a man meerly of the world out of the Church is ingaged to watch over the Church and they over him which is not true Thus it appears that for ought that you have said you have not had at the constitution of your Churches a right matter viz. visible Saints neither such a form as you indeavoured to prove You teach me what I should have proved as if my argument concluded not the question not considering that it is our Churches present not Reply Dr. B. Primitive estate which I undertake to vindicate what the men in the Parishes of this Nation were in their first forming I have not now to say you say they might consist yea you rise higher and

for they have right to be an actual Congregation the Assumption is proved so abundantly by others that I need say no more till they be answered the sum is this we have the word ourselves and the blessing of the Covenant Ergo we are in Covenant with God I deny the Antecedent That the Parishes of this Nation generally Answer I. O. are Saints who have made a Covenant with God by sacrifice according to Ps 50. 50. is most abominably false the very naming of it is confutation sufficient he that justifies the wicked in their wickedness is abomination before God and who those are that have proved that the Parishes of this Nation generally are Saints that have made a Covenant with God by sacrifice I never yet saw attempted the truth is you have neither had the word as you ought to have had nor yet the Seals rightly administred neither yet the blessing of the Covenant and that this is so is so abundantly proved by others that I need say no more till they be answered Those Societies that answer the Kingdom of Heaven in those Parables of our Saviour where he declares what the visible Church Arg. 15. D. B. is they are true Churches for his scope is to teach us by those similitudes how to know the visible Church on earth but so do our Assemblies I will instance in two or three of those Parables first of the good seed sown in the field Mat. 13. 24. which because our Saviour says is meant of the world ver 38. you with many others deny the visible Church to be thereby intended but interpret it of the wider world But that Christ means his Church his Field scattered throughout the world appears evidently by the servants wondring at the tares ver 25. there had been no place for this wonder if that were his meaning for who can wonder to see the world full of wicked persons I argue thus Those Societies that have good seed sowen in them and mixture of good men and wicked hypocrites united in external Communion and Profession of Religion are true visible Churches but so have ours and so had the Apostolical Churches in Corinth for example A second is that of the Draw Net ver 47. Many in the Church not of the Church 1 Jo● 2. 19. this is apparent that in the Church sincere and hypocrites are gathered to profession and external Communion and where they are so there is the Church to the same purpose is the Parable Mat. 22. of him that had not on a wedding Garment and that in Mat. 25. of the 10. Virgins Finally the Church is compared to a flower where there is Chaf mixt with Wheat that which is objected that the Church is a society of Saints called to be Saints is easily answered the denomination is taken from the better part i. e. all should be some are real Saints To the first of these Parables it is apparant it is not meant of the Answer I. O. Church at all but the world ver 38. Christ himself interprets it now whether it be believed of Christ or you Let all men Judge Whereas you say we interpret of the wider world I desire you in your next to shew if you can where Christ makes any distinction of wider or narrower world or whether the Church is not a people called out of the world visibly known from it if you cannot you do not well in making such distinctions where the Scripture makes known you say Christ means his Church his Field Answer That is as much as you should say his Church his World for Field is world ver 38. so you confound the Church and world together as one that hath alwaies been so distinctly separated nay this is also to confound your self who say the word Church signifies a Company called out of the world You say it appears by the servants wondring at the tares and if meant of the world there had been no place for this wonder Reply This it seems is that weighty reason that perswades your judgement contrary to Christs exposition of his own words There is never a such Word as Wonder in the Text they only askt the Question if he did not sow good seed in his Field and from whence came the tares and that they might well do from the consideration of that precious Gospel of Peace Christ cast into the world and that deadly enmity hatched against is when declared or if there could no reason be given of this their Question we must not therefore frame an exposition of our own contrary to Christs express determination for similitudes carry not an equal Parallel in all things but very many times That Christ means not the Church I thus evince That which makes void the Doctrin of Excommunication and makes Christ speak plain Contradiction is not the meaning of Christ in this Parable but to interpret it of the Church doth so Ergo. The Major is undeniable the Minor is manifest from the whole scope of the place for when the tares i. e. wicked Men ver 38. did visibly appear ver 26. the servants said wilt thou ver 28. that we go and gather them up the Master said nay ver 30. Let both grow till the Harvest which Harvest is the end of the world ver 39. now what can be more plainlyer laid down in the world then this that if it be meant of the Church no Min is to be cast out of it till the day of judgement though visibly wicked and how doth it make Christ speak plain contradition one while commanding ungodly persons to be cast out of his Church and an other while commending them to be kept in Let them alone c. thus the interpretation of this Scripture by you being false the Argument that you draw is from a groundless Construction of the words and so useless now for all the rest if they be to be understood of the Church it s such a mixture as is not severable till the day of judgement and so undeniable not discernable to the eys of Men seeing those that appear to be nought are to be separated before that time 1 Cor. 5. 2 5 7 11 13. 2 Cor. 6. 14 15 16 17. With many other places to the same purpose evident it is for that of the Draw net ver 49. to the end of the world was the time of severation and so the time of discerning and of him that had not the wedding Garment on it seems the Master of the Feast only discerned and for the ten Virgins the time of discerning the wise from the foolish was when the Bridegroom came I readily grant that in a true Gospel Church there may be many in it that are none of it many Hypocrites gathered to profession and external Communion c. but then they must be such as to the eys of the Church undiscernable for we see all along the Scripture by Christs own command Mat. 18. 15 16 17. If thy Brother

Visible Church From the two ends of it neither of which you say are attained by our Peoples constant meeting c. which is untrue for first our Assemblies are hereby known from all other Societies in the world Heathenish jewish Mabometan Popish c. who joyn not together in Gods true Worship 2. The Godly of our Congregations declare themselves hereby ingaged to watch over each other and actually do so yea the whole Body come to be instructed reproved and watcht ever by their Pastors and are admonished of their duty which they yield assent unto and are convinced though the most fail in performance But let our Brethren whose cause you manage speak and they readily acknowledge that we have the same Covenant for substance which themselves have and consequently are as true Churches Read reverend Mr. Hookers survey Chap. 4. thus the People of England in their Parishes constantly hold them to the fellow ship of the People in such a place attend all the Ordinances submit thereto c. by such actions c. they declare by their practises which others by open profission an implicite Covenant preserves the true Nature of the Church because it carries the formalis ratio in it by which a Church is constituted animplicite Covenant in some cases may be fully sufficient as if it consist of such who were children to parents confederate deceased c. The like and fuller acknowledgement you shall finde of all the Elders of New England in their Treatise of Church Covenant where they give the same Reason which you so slight Quoting Mr. Parker whose words in his third Beck of Ecclesiastical policy are these Non abest ea r●alis Et substantialis quamquam Magis quam par erat implicita Coitio in foe tus eaque professio fidei substantialis quae Deo grata essentialis Ecclesiae idque visibilis huc usque sartam rectam in Anglis conservavit You see how little you have gained by undertaking anothers Cause which though you disclaim as yours in this yet you seem clearly to own in your Answer to the next Argument whichas to gratifie you who cry out sovehemently against the gathering of our Churches concluding that we are no true Churches because we cannot prove that we were at first rightly gathered whereas it is clear enough that we might be true Churches though it could not appear that we were at first rightly gathered as men may be true Christians of whose Baptism and first conversion there can no clear accempt be given and some socities may be named who were doubtless true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found in Scripture The Argument proceeds thus Our Churches had a right gathering both out of Heathenism and out of Popery therefore they are true Churches Argu. 3 1. Out of Heathenism we were gathered 500. years before Austin the Monk by the preaching of the Gospel and not at all Dr. B. by compulsion this is proved out of approved Antiquaries 2. Out of Popery I thus reason If the Churches of this Nation were gathered or rather recalled out of Popery into the true Religion by the means that are approved and appointed in the word of God then they were rightly gathered out of Popery But the former is true which is thus made good the means approved and appointed by God to gather or recall a back slided People are preaching and the command of the Civil Magistrate this latter is evident by sundry examples of good Kings 2 Chron. 14. 4. 15 12 13 30 34 32 33. that these were the means of recalling our people out of Popery is acknowledged by all Answ It s true I say you are no true Churches because you cannot prove you were at first rightly gathered and I say it s also Answ as true some may be true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found but what is this to your purpose the question I. O. is not whether they be true Churches whose first original cannot be known but whether those be true who can know and finde it and yet are unable to prove it true I question not but was it to your advantage you could quickly tell us of the first original of your Parishes To the first branch of your Argument that these 8432. Parishes of which the whole land is were gatheted by the preaching of the Gospel I desire to see proved I deny not but here might be Churches gathered but I desire to see it proved that they were gathered as now they stand a whole Nation divided into Parish Churches generally If they were thus gathered by the Preaching of the Gospel then they were called from the World after a sort from themselves and united together as one body as all the Churches in the Gospel were Now this whole Nation was never called out of the World visibly what was the World out of which they were called when they were all accounted Members And for others in other Nations they were never amongst 2. The World the lusts thereof they retained in their hearts coveteousness pride malice every evil work visibly seen in many of them 3 So far were they from being united as one Man as that they were many of them deadly enemies one to another sure if the Gospel did gather its effects would be seen To the second branch This Argument is the same with your former only you alter the term from constituting to gathering which in effect is all one for you apply it to your first gathering out of Heathenism which might be understood of constitution so that I do not well know whether it be added as a proof of the former or as an Argument of it self but to follow you in your scope First I cannot see that you have had any constitution at your coming from Popery for there was no alteration of either matter or form which are the essential constitutive principles and if you had any constitution you had it from Papists for before you had none as now you stand or if you had it could do you no good as I shall shew Popery had so deeply infected those that had been true Churches and this among the rest which was one with Rome that the name and nature of your Church was lost yea past recalling for where the Church was called the Spouse the wife the body the house the garden the Temple the Zion of Christ they come to be called A whore a mother of harlots a Babylon an habitation of Divels an hold of every foul Spirit and a cage of every unclean and hareful bird and whereas before the Church was peaceable and meek and kindly affectionate gentle c. Now they come to be a blood thitsty adulterous whore drunk with the blood of Saints for in her was found the blood of all that was slain upon the earth insomuch that the Lord cries out Come out of her my people Now we know whilst that People are in a capacity of

to confirm this are at large related 2. Though Popish Apostacy did afterward for many Ages overspread all the Churches in England yet they believe God still reserved a remnant for whose sakes he preserved the holy Scriptures amongst them and baptism in the name of the Trinity only and when God of his rich grace was pleased to stir up the Spirit of King Edward the sixth and Queene Elizabeth to cast off the Pope c. though at first some Sbires and sundry Parishes stood out against that Reformation for a time yet afterwards they generally received the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. which are published and consented to by all the Ministers endowed with the silent consent also of the People and Subscription of the hands of the chief of them containing the Marrow and Summe of the Oracles of God which are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Eloquia Dei concredited only to the Church We doe therefore acknowledge that where the People doe with common and mutuall consent gather into setled Congregations every Lords day as in England they do to hear and teach this Doctrin and doe profess their subjection thereunto and doe bind themselves and their Children as in Baptism they doe to continue therein that such Congregations are true Churches much more you may read in their Treatise of Church Covenant in their Answer to the eleventh Objection where they shew that if Christian Congregations in England were at the first combined by Covenant the Eternity of Gods Covenant is such that it is not the Interposition of many Corruptions that may arise in after-time that can disanull the same c. That Objection also that the Members of our Parishionall Assemblies were not brought in by their own voluntary profession but by the Authority and Proclamation of the Prince as also that Rome and the Assemblies of Papists may go for true Churches also you shall find there very fully answered The Name of Parish I perceive all along is stumbled at as Popish as are the names of Parsons Vicars and Curats which is the main if not the only Reason why some of you cast off both the English Churches and Ministers and yet the thing signified by the name is owned by Scripture and upon that account Mr. Hollingworth proves Parishes to be of Divine Right to whom I formerly referr'd you and reason it self evinceth it most expedient for the better performance of those duties which arise from Church-Membership that the Members should cohabit or dwell as neer together as conveniently they may It 's falsely charged upon as that we hold Parish Precincts give a man right or make him matter fit for a visible Congregation but the Question is of a Nation or City Christian whether the bounds of Parishes discreetly measured may not rationally be fixed as most expedient for Religious Meetings seeing all cannot meet in one place and if the Members of a Parish be visible Saints you will not say it is not lawfull to limit the Congregation unto such read the Review formerly cited and that our Congregations generally consist of such though not in your yet in a Scripture sense hath been in part and shall be more fully proved In your Answer to the first Branch I see nothing worth replying to 1. The World out of which this Nation when made Christian was called every mans Eyes but yours easily see 2. Many Members of the best Churches retain the lusts of the World in their hearts and 3 May be deadly Enemies one to another bite and devour one another yea and be Enemies to their faithfull Ministers for telling them the truth and yet the effects of Gospel gathering seen well enough To the second branch 1. You say we retain the Constitution which we had from Popery which is very false for we rejected Popery embraced Gods holy truths and joyned together in true worship and so were Matter and Form distant far enough from Popish Rulers you mean we retain the same Parish bounds which Papists left us to which sufficient hath been spoken 2. You deny the Command of the Magistrate assisting the publick Preaching of the Gospel to be a means appointed and approved of God for the gathering or recalling of a back-slided People That the Magistrates duty is to command yea and compell men that have forsaken their God and the true Faith to return again to God I proved by the approved examples of the good Kings undor the old Testament which you throw off very lightly as if old-Testament-Proofs were of no force whereas the Apostle expresly teacheth that the Gospel Churches are built upon the Prophets as well as the Apostles Ephes 2. 20. And that I may farther convince you of your Errour and Folly in slighting these Examples 1. You cannot but grant that what these good Kings did was by vertue of divine warrant Deut. 13. 5-11 17. 2. Exod. 22. 20. 2. It will thus appear that these Rules and Patterns are binding under the New Testament 1. Because we find no Repeal of these Precepts no Prohibition of these Practises 2. This Power is of Common and Naturall Equity and that which is answerable to the Morall Law binds under the Gospel 3 This Power was established and exercised upon Morall grounds and for Moral ends Deut 13. 5. 11. 4. We find this very thing prophesied of the times of the New Testament Es 49. 23. Zech. 13. 3. 5. The Apostle makes Rulers a terrour to evill works and Revengers to execute wrath upon Evil Doers without limitation or exception and you will not deny transgressions of the first Table to be evill works Moreover you cannot but remember that it is a Gospel-expression Compel them to come in Your first Argument from the Apostles gathering Churches without the Magistrates help there being no Christian Magistrate proves the Power of God who can make his Word alone Effectual but it proves not that had there been Christian Magistrates they ought not to have aided by their authority or that the Apostles would not have called for their assistance The consequence of your second Argument is absurd If I have Bread and Water to preserve my life must I not make use of these because I want those other means which God hath appointed and which when he sees good he will add to these to make my life more comfortable Your conclusion of this Answer is a triumph before the victory My following Argument which you say will melt like Snow before the Sun may make a floud which will sweep away your refuge of lyes James 3. 14 15. Those Assemblies wherein Christ dwells by the special presence Arg. 4. Dr. B. of his Grace are true visible Churches but Christ dwells in the Parochial Assemblies of England by the special presence of his Grace Ergo the Parochial Assemblies of England are true visible Churches The Major proved Rev. 1. 12 13 Psal 132 13 14. Exod. 25. 31. 1 Tim. 3. 15. 2 Cor. 6. 16. The

And when I see it I will return you an answer To the second viz. that we rob Gods people of their right c. I answer The expression Rob is as unsuitable as untrue for we take not away that in the night nor secretly in the day that which we are afraid to be taken with in the light but what we withhold we proclame and give nay invite all to bring in their evidence That if they for Infants can lay just claim thereunto they shall be admitted Sir take heed you pronounce not sentence of Condemnation against your selves for I think was it material it might easily be made appear that you rob Goa's people of their right and that in many things But that we do not rob Goa's people of their right you shall be witness and your self shall answer your self and that may the soonest give your self and others satisfact on thus from the notation of the word Church which signifies you say argument thirteen a company called out from the world unto Christ come together upon that call c. Whence I thus reason If the word Church signifie such a company so call'd so come then it 's impossible for such who were never thus called thus come neither yet are in a capacity to be of that company For words significant aris● from the nature of the thing to which they are applied and where the answering of the signification of a word is not to be found there that word is improperly applied as I think all men will grant and Scripture example is full but the word Church so signifies This is your own Ergo. Now that Infants are not called out of the world by the Word come together upon that call c. is undeniable Therefore Infants are not of that Company Thus if to deny Infants Church-membership be rebery it 's the Notation of the Word Church and your thirteenth Argument that is the theef Sir you must either repeal this thirteenth Argument or it will utterly repeal Infants Church-membership and put you to prove where and when it was done and for Acts the 2. and Romans 11. where you say it 's Confirmed I answer When you have reconciled this thirteenth Argument and Infant-Church-membership together and drawn your Arguments from Acts 2. Rom. 11. to prove it I will return you an answer And for your third reason where you say we want a true form c. I answer we make not an express Covenant the form of a visible Church as you well know therefore this makes nothing against us we may be true Churches for all that if what you say be true Either our Congregations are true Churches or there were none Arg. 12. Dr. B. since Christ and the Apostles for what Churches can be shewed that have come neerer the rule in respect of Doctrine and for Government the Jus divinum regiminis Ecclesiastici And Provincial vindication have sufficiently evinced the Presbyterian government to lay just claim to divine Right But the latter is false for the gates of Hell never did never shall prevail against the Church 1. To say that if you be not true Churches there have been none Answ J. O. since Christ c. is confidently to dictat and Magisterially to set down without the least colour of proof that which is so principal a Question betwixt us for we have abundantly offered to make good that we come neerer the rule first in Respect of doctrine than you and for government which you say is sufficiently evinced in the Jus Divinum c. I shall pay you with your own coyn and that may soonest satisfie thus your Presbyterian government hath been abundantly confuted and the Independ●●cy of Churches in Relation to a sufficiency in herself for the performance of all the Ordinances of Christ by the learned Mr. Hooker in his survey of Church discipline Secondly I deny that the latter is false by vertue of that Scripture if you understand it of the visible Church which is only to your purpose for the gates of Hell may nay hath prevailed yea overcome the visible Church as the Revelations abundantly makes manifest Sir I wonder you have not so much foresight as to see how upon your own * He that can make it appear that this place is meant of the visible Church and that which is a true Church shall alwaies visibly appear will do the Pope essential service he no doubt will return him many thanks he will undeniably prove Rome a true Church because Rome once only visibly appeared keeping down all others principles your own arguments wound your self For where was the visibility of your Presbyterian Church in the midst of Popery except you will say Rome was it where is the line of your succession I doubt it is utterly lost and so upon your own interpretation of Scripture you prove your selves false Churches From the notation of the word Church which signifies a Company Arg. 13. Dr. B. called out of the world unto Christ by the word come together upon that call all are called externally and some effectually This Argument fi●rcely fights against nay cuts the throat of the Answ I. O. Causes it should defend for the word Church signifying such a Company so called so come doth utterly exclude all not so called so come being of that Company now beyond dispute it is that the generality of People in the Parishes of this Nation were never visibly called out of the world c. Therefore not possibly to be concluded of that Company I had alwaies thought there had been a World in England what are all the Carnal wicked covetous persons in the Parishes of this Nation called out from the world to Christ if they have not as any man that hath but the least spark of godliness may easily see how dare you apply this notation of the word to them if this be not to sow Pillows under all Arm-holds making them trust in living words saying the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord so you the Church Church-Members faithful people c. I am much mistaken Sir take beed lest that fall upon you spoken of Pro. 17. 15. all you say called externally some effectually Answer if by external call you mean a bare call by the Preaching of the word without a visible submission thereunto you are contrary to your self which is not of a verbal call simply but of a calling O●t and a comming thereupon unto Christ if you say they are visibly called out c. nothing can be spoken more falsly common sense proves the contrary and what the effectual calling of some is to prove that all are externally called out according to the notation of the word is to me a Paradox Our Churches are in Covenant with God Ergo They are true Churches the consequence is evident from Psal 50. 5. where the Arg. 14. D. B. Prophet implies that by being in Covenant with God Men are really a Church

trespass against thee go and tell him of his fault betwixe him and thee alone and if he will not hear thee take with thee one or two more and if he will not hear them tell it to the Church and if he neglect to hear the Church let him be to thee at a Heathen and Publican and thus the Apostle was carefull to keep the Church visible purer Purge out from you the old Leaven saith Paul know you not that a little Leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump see and consider Haggai 1. 11 12 13 now you being such as are and ever were for the most part visibly nought cannot Answer those Parables if understood of the Church true it is that many Churches in the Apostles times had amongst them visibly bad they being degenerated from what he was but they were to remain but for a considerable time of tryal to see if they would be restored and if they would not be reclamed but prove contumacious they are to be delivered to that Kingdom from whence they For those which you so harp upon that was bad in the Apostolicall Churches and as bad as you say as yours these were not fit matter for a Church as such for such they were commanded to excommunicate 1 Cor. 5. 5 6 7. and forbad to have Communion with ver 11 12 13. sure was unfit matter for the Church came and for the objection that you say is so easily answered the Church being called Saints the denomination being taken from the better part I answer if you mean this if a Church at its first constitution it s abundantly false and you have spoken it without the least colour of Scripture or reason I challenge you or any Man in the World to produce one example in all the New Testament of any one Church that at its Constitution received one visible wicked Man and if not but all appeared Saints then undeniable it is that the denomination arose from the visibility of sanctity that appeared in all and so it was as the Scripture plainly declares to all that are willing to see If you mean it of a Church when degenerated from what they were it s nothing to your purpose because you for the most part were never visibly Regenerated it appears that the Churches after corrupted retained the name of Saints from that visible sanctity once they had and yet not past recovery to their former Estate for after they appeared past recovery see what they may be called Mat. 18. 17. all you say should be answer true therefore those that are not are as they should not be Some you say are true but that doth not shew that those that never were are to be accounted so nor that those that never were are to be accounted Church Members though amongst the other for then Babylon is a Church and a society of Saints for some Saints may be and have been there Rev. 18. 4. Those societies from which it is a Sin to separate are true Churches Arg. 16. D. B. but it is a Sin to separate from our Assemblies Ergo. That Church for separation from which there is as little reason as there was for separating from the Church whereof Christ professeth himself a Member John 4. 22. and so from the Church of Corinth it is a sin to separate from but there is little reason to separate from our Assemblies compare our Churches with the Church of the Jews in Christs time for Teachers and Rulers and you shall find as bad of both as with us if you say these Churches had a right Constitution and gathering I have proved ours have both The Minor of the first and also of the second Syllogism is denyed Answer 1. 0. and were our separation from you onely for the evilness of you it might easily be made appear that there is more reason to separate from you then either the Church of the Jews or Corinthians You have been so far from proving that Constitution true that after you had indeavoured it and see my answer to it you then deny that you were to prove any such thing see page the 2d Argument 2. and then page 6. at the Reply but the truth is you yet never were a Church at all you never having had any Gospel Constitution and where you say you have proved it there I have disproved it and proved it false where unto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words Those Churches that have brought forth a multitude of Martyrs Argument 17. Dr. B. for the Causes of Christ against Anti-Christ are no Anti-Christian but true Churches that ours have so is superfluous for me to prove Sir I desire you in your next to prove that the bringing over Answer 1. 0. of men to yield up their lives in the defence of some truths for these did no more is sufficient to prove the societies that so taught them true Churches go throughout all the diversities of Religions almost in the world and you shall find some so taught as were they called to it would yield up their lives and Seal some truths of Christ with their blood Rome it self I am confident would yield many Martyrs for the Cause of Christ in many real truths and though they could not be concluded Anti-Christian in that yet they might in many other things that they might hold that might be erronious Here are many societies in England that deny the Baptism of water to be practised upon any subject without which no society in the world can be accounted a visible Church and yet I am confident had they occasion rather than they would deny they would seal many precious truths of Christ with their blood and now upon your Argument they in so doing might be proved true Churches if what you say be true though they deny that without which no men can be esteemed so Secondly I desire to see it proved for yet you have not that the Parishes of this Nation did bring forth these Martyrs I rather think that the Parishes of this Nation were as willing to have them Martyred as those bloody men themselves that did it for that Parish that brought forth some that were Members of her to profess and dye for some truths must needs profess the same things themselves and so they should all have been Martyred for such was the blood-thirstiness of those men that all that would not submit to their abominations must dye But we see no such thing for only some few in some Parishes and in any one were Martyred and the rest not toucht which shews that the Parishes except some few were of the mind of those bloody men and so the edge of the Argument may be turned into your own Neck thus Those Churches that have consented to the Martyrdom of a multitude of those that dyed in the defence of the Cause of Christ are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation have so consented Ergo. Thirdly were all