Pharisees rejected the counsel of God and were not baptized of him Mat. 3.5 6. with Luke 7.30 I distinguished the people both from his friends and our selves but are his friends no sober minded men that they are distinguished from them I speak of the generality of the people if there were one or two did otherwise it 's more then I observed To that of 1 John 5.1 Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God he cavils that I did it without understanding and without distinction whereas it was his part being the answer to have distinguished if he understood any ground for it and not mine who was opponent but something he will say though to no purpose how much more truly might I have said what he charges me with of the generality of his own quotations in his answer as that in 2 Sam. 22. 1 Joh. 3.9 and 1 John 4.17 and yet when in my postscript I distinguished of that in 1 John 3.9 He snatches at the first part of my distinction viz. that whosoever is perfectly born of God as the spirits of just men made perfect and the men themselves in the Resurrection cannot sin at all but none so perfectly born of God here taking no notice of the other propositions that speak of men as here born of God and then cries out Oh what pittiful stuffe is here to imagine men are not perfectly born of God so as not to sin till deceased this would make the worke of God imperfect here when all his works are perfeci then taxes me as if I had said that those that were born of God in the Apostles daies were some that were deceased and risen again Whereas I in the other part of the distinction shewed how those that are born of God while here may be said not to sin and that they cannot sin but why is it such pittifull stuffe to say that the spirits of just men deceased the men themselves when raised are or shall be more perfectly born of God the while here living do they gain no degree of perfection by death where then is the advantage they have by it Nor shall they gain none in the resurrection neither when seeing him as he is they shall be like him 1 John 3.2 or have the present propositions of truth all their fulfilling at the present He that hath the Son hath life 1 John 5.12 Have they not so that are deceased in him and shall they not have him and life more fully in the resurrection if G. believe it And why must the work of God be imperfect if men be not perfectly born of God here was the work of God all whose works are perfect imperfect when Paul said not that I am already perfect or have already attained Philip. 3.12 or because the Fathers dyed in the faith not having received the promises God having provided some better thing for us that they without us should not be made perfect Heb. 11.39 Were the works of God therefore imperfect till these last ages If so then why not so too till the resurrection If they were perfect alwaies and in all generations then mens not being perfectly born of God while here hinders not their perfection no more then Pauls or the Fathers being not perfect did Surely G. W. is very silly if he think as he writ here and a very deceiver if he thought otherwise and they be simple that are catcht with such chaff or worthy to be blind still that will not see it but let us see what distinction he hath devised upon 1 John 5.1 to save his credit He saies It 's true according to Johns testimony of a true believer who by faith hath victory over the world and so being born of God is not under the bondage of corruption c. But such he saies I. H. doth not own while men are here Folly and falsehood folly for he implies that Johns saying is not true without distinction and yet John said it without distinction for he said not whosoever so or so believeth that Jesus is the Christ but in general expressions whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God True it is that he saies ver 4. whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world and this is the victory that overcometh the world even our faith but then in ver 5. he explicates what their faith was answerable to ver 1. saying who is he that overcometh the world but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God which is all one with whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ clearly fignifying that he that believeth that is born of God and so overcometh the world even the spirit rudiments and pollutions of the world so as none else and that they who believe not that is with their heart believe not that Jesus even that Jesus of Nazareth whom the Jews crucified bodily and God raised from the dead for hesides him the Apostles did preach no other Jesus name or thing within men or without men to be the Saviour or salvation of God to be believed on Acts 4.10 11 12. is the Christ the Son of God the Saviour of the world the annointed one to bring us back to God the propitiation for our sins the righteousnesse and life given us of God I say he implies that they who believe not him to be the Christ or annointed Saviour in and through what he hath done and suffered for us in the body of his flesh and is become for us therethrough and is doing for us in heaven on Gods right hand as the great Mediator and high Priest for us and from heaven to and in us as the great Apostle and Prophet of our profession and Lord of all and in what he is appointed to do and will do at his glorious descent from heaven and appearing and kingdome then to be revealed in glory they have not nor do overcome the world But whatever be their pretences and appearances to men of being out of and above the world they are overcome of the world and are in the worlds state being led of and by the god of the world and rudiments of it which lead men that seek after righteousness and hope toward God to seek it in themselves and their doings mortifications and frames but not to go out of themselves into Christ and his name to accept of him even that Jesus of Nazareth as made sin for them and raised again for their justification and glorified at Gods right hand for their wisdome righteousnesse holynesse and redemption and so to have their rejoycing in him and expectation from him and of him at his appearing they who have so received him and abide in him are indeed born of God and have overcome the world But they that do not so receive him are in and of the world who neglecting him and counting faith in him foolishnesse live and rejoice in their own good meanings honesty zeal blamelesnesse mortifications
and devotions as the Pharisees and some false Apostles did who yet were of the world though they had avoluntary humility and shew of wisdome therein in neglecting the body c. Col. 2.18 23. And much men may have that way and great appearance of having overcome the world because they can and do deny themselves of many grosser comforts and vanities of it and indure much voluntary hardship or sufferings from others of it as the Priests of Baal 1 Kings 18.28 40. And the old Philosophers and wordly religious amongst both Turks and Papists who also glory in such things and yet are deeply in the spirit of the world even as by that description of the overcomer of the world here given by Iohn the Quakers so called are evidenced to them that judgement carnally by outward appearance as most do which makes them have so many Proselites but by the spirituall eye of faith however they bost themselves as perfect and vaunt themselves as out of and overcomers of the world yet they are most deeply and dangerously though most mystically and to the world-ward indiscernably overcome of the world and the spirit of the world as being most out of and reprobate concerning the faith that overcomes the world viz. That Jesus is the Christ the Son of God they accounting his coming in the flesh as Rich. Hubberthorne seconded by G. W. to be but a figure and touching his being in heaven and work there and coming thence being most dangerously corrupt and unbelievers having their rejoycing and glorying not in that person of Jesus and his sufferings and sacrifice according to the Scripture as their book in answer to us and their writings generally evidence but in themselves their sinlesnesse pretended and in their actings and sufferings by which it is evident that they are not born of God nor have overcome the world whatever outsideappearances they walke and glory in 2. Because I produced according to Johns testimony without distinction or alteration and meant it only of true believing 3. He saies it's true of true believers as if he would imply that Paul and the other holy men when they said they had sin in them were not true believers though in some other false sense believes that Jesus is the Christ what were the Apostles hypocrites when they said they had sin in them that George thinks them not then to have been true believers For if they were not true believers they were feigned believers and we may well bear G. W.'s railing language of us and his judging us to be hypocrites if he judged the Apostles when Apostles were such sure G. W. did better before when he waved it and fled before the power of God in it than to rake up such an evasion as implies his taxing the Apostles to be no true believers when they confessed their sins or that they â—ad not overcome the world when they were translated out of it into Christ and held forth the faith of Christ against all oppositions of the World then he is guilty of falsehood in saying John describes the true believers to be from under the bondage of corruption when he makes no mention of the bondage of corruption though that they are so in some sense is true but then he saies false and belies me in saying that I own not such while men are here for in such a sense as true believers are free from the bondage of corruption that is from being detained under the guilt of sin and condemnation for it or the dominion of it so as to inslave them to it I own believers though not from the being of it in their members is it all one to have corruption in a man yea and in many things to offend and to be under the bondage of corruption Was James under the bondage of corruption as corruption signifies sin when he said in many things we offended all or John when he said If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves c. Surely G. W. had need to goe to school to learn more understanding before he be a teacher that cannot distinguish things that so broadly differ He saies A man must believe that Jesus is the Christ and believe in him too before he be born of God as Christ said believed in the light 〈◊〉 ye may be the children of the light What is this but to fight against the Apostle John and to tell him Nay John thou saist not truly in saying who ever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God Men may believe that and yet not be born of God for that goes before a mans being born of God and yet some things are before others in order of nature that yet are not without them as he that hath life hath breath yet in order of nature life is before breath so though it be true that men must believe in the light that they may be the children of the light yet it followes not that some do believe in it that are not the children of it and yet even they that are born of God and so are children of the light may be further born of it and so more the children of God that is like unto God as the Disciples when born of God for God was their Father yet Christ bids them to love their enemies c. That they might be the children of their Father Mat. 6.44 45. And yet again There is some difference between believing in the light and believing Jesus to be the Christ some did believe in the light before they believed that Jesus is the Christ as Nathaniel and Cornelius and divers others So that here is nothing in Geo. yet but deceit and opposition to the Scripture sayings nay G is broadly contradictory to John the Apostle and sticks not to make him a lyer plainly afterward as well as safely to perswade people that some of his party perceived my deceit For saith he What people are there of any understanding even among those Priests which this Priest Horne calls greedy dogs strong to appetite that doe not believe that Jesus is the Christ Are they therefore born of God What is this but to cast the lye upon John for being so rash as to say whosoever believeth Jesus is the Christ is born of God when as he saies such as he reviles as the worst of men do that and yet are not born of God Judge Reader Whom shall we here believe the Apostle John or Geo. Whitehead Is it not better and truer to say what ever men perswade themselves of and what ever they pretend they do not believe Jesus to be the Christ that are not born of God than thus rashly to give the Apostle the lye That George fled to another shift when beat by that Scripture from his former answer that the Apostles were not born of God while they confessed sin he denies not but indeavours to justifie here what he therein said For he saies here again that The
confusion as not knowing how to phrase it intending saith he as 1 Iohn 3.9 who cannot sin it seems he was so baffled that he could not then tell us his intention nor now doth explain here those in 1 Joh. 3. are said to be born of God only seems to imply that he thinks there be other kinds of being born of God than that speaks of which would or could he have cleared himself he should have proved and not so spoken without distinction and understanding He adds that Paul could sin when he could do the evil he would not which yet he proves not seeing he expresly saies it was not he that did it but sin that dwelt in him and to the Galatians that the flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh they could not do what they would and so it was there with him as the law in his members warring against the law in his minde he could not do what in his spirit he would so the inner man or spirit delighting in the law of God and lusting against the flesh or law in his members he could not do what his flesh would and what sin in him did yea what his members or flesh and so he as denominated by it did he as in the spirit or according to the inner man accoring to which John saies whosoever is born of God cannot sin could not do What he adds about his travelling in pain for deliverance from the bondage of corruption and that where the son or birth from above is born the glorious liberty of the Sons of God is injoyed which the creatures waited for and the travelling in pain for deliverance is ceased as also the first clause of his saying above related that Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the birth was born in him Is all besides the bush as in our relation of the discourse also is evidenced for as I then and there cleared it what Paul saies of travelling in pain and of deliverance from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God he saies of the whole creation distinguishing himself and the Sons of God who had then received the first fruites of the spirit from the creature before spoken of as is clear Rom. 8.20 21 22 23. for he saies not only they but we our selves also that have the first fruits of the spirit even we our selves groan within our selves waiting for the adoption the redemption of the body It 's clear that the Apostles there in ver 19 20. c. speakes of the restitution of all things spoken of by the Prophets as Act. 3.21 When the glory of the Sons of God that now suffer with Christ as ver 17. even to the bodily death shall be revealed and when the creature it self as distinct from them even the fabrick of the world shall be renewed and freed from the bondage of corruption that it is by occasion of mens sins subjected to in hope for which freedome in it's kind it groans and travels together till now and for the redemption of the body then also to be effected from the bondage to what it suffers now and shall lye under in some things till then they the Sons of God distinct from the other creatures also waiting groaned what groaning or travelling was necessary to precede the being born of God Joh. 1.12 13. so as to be made Sons of God Paul and the other holy Apostles and Prophets had it in their receiving Christ before they were made Apostles and Prophers though I deny not but in that birth there might be degrees and growth after nor will the perfection of it be as to the body till the resurrection thereof from the dead So that yet it abides firme that Paul when born of God confessed he had sin dwelt yet in him Whereas he adds That I perverted his comparison and that it was not intended to prove that Paul was not born into the world according to the flesh wherewith he travelled c. I answer that G. W. grosly plaies the Sophister in representing me as wresting his comparison to any such intention It 's evident what I said is to this purpose that as no woman travells with natural children before she her selfe be born and be a woman So neither did Paul groan for the resurrection of the body till himself was born of God in the mind and spirit and so that he was born of God when he so groaned as he there speaks of His quotation of John 16.21 22. is impertinent for Christ speaks there of the sorrow they had before the spirit was powred down upon them before they were sent out into all the world as Act. 1.8 with Luke 24.49 which Paul had before he was an Apostle and so before he made that confession of sin Act. 9.17 in Rom. 7.17.20 or else also of their having sorrow in travelling to bring forth the knowledg of Christ in others and their joy after in their being brought forth unto God and most fully when they shal be presented with them together at the great appearance of Christ in his glory at the resurrection of the just as 2 Cor. 4.11 12 13 14. that in Jer. 30.6 speaking of Jacobs sorrow in captivity and their joy in their return again is yet more impertinently alledged by him and so is that in Isa 9.6 abused for the Prophet Isaiah doth not witnesse as George pretends that in them a child was born in them a son was given but to them which he speaks prophetically of Christ given in the counsel purpose and promise of God and to be born in his time which he speaks of for its certainty as if then accomplished though not to themselves but to us in these after ages they ministred the things now preached as accomplished as the Apostle Peter tells us 1 Pet. 1.11 12. His confusion in saying one while The Disciples travelled in sorrow before the man or birth from above was born in them and presently that they were in pain before they became that birth I passe as also his judging me as ignorant of the states he speaks of their talking of a babe in them fashioning their bodies to the likenesse here of Christs glorious body I have writ and yet do testifie against as arguing their unbelief and denyal of the resurrection of the body and the power of Christ thereto which makes them turne the things thereabout into fancies and allegories of their own divifing which shews them to be such as subvert the faith and such as are to be counted accursed That I wickedly belyed the people in saying they all laught because many of his friends and others that were sober minded did not join with them c. Is as false as that Mathew wickedly belyed the people of Judea and about Jordan in saying all Judea and all the regions about Jordan went out to John and were baptized of him when it appears that the
the same persons with different respects No man living as he is a man from Adam though a believer but as so considered hath sin and sinneth that is doth that that is sinful though it s not imputed to him that believeth because his mind being renewed consents not to it but strives not for it as these men say of us but against it and yet as born of God and according to the spirit or new man the man that believeth and abideth in Christ sins not nor can sin commit or consent to the sin that is and remaineth in his flesh and members and is there to be put off yet and mortified by him He saies Many saw the truth over me Yes over me as my defence and Protection I believe they did and error under my feet But none that saw things rightly could see truth with them nor what they erroneonsly call truth damping or confuting me for then could I not have laughed as he saies or rejoiced over them As for what peace they had in the truth may be conjectured from their want of honesty and truth in all hitherto discovered and I shall not need to grudge them their Peace but wish them more truth that their peace may be therein and not in deceit As for his coming alone into the Congregation that may be and yet it may be truly said his friends came thither with him as the word with signifies a consent with him in their coming also even as though Christ was buried alone before the believers now living were born into the world yet they may be said to be buried with him as those Col. 2.12 My discovery of his deceitful abuse of Psal 103.1 he wisely passes over I hope he is ashamed of it that he neither at his coming then or now hath a word to justifie himselfe therein That I would encourage those in power to persecute him and to cause the outward man to suffer followes not from my saying that they namely those of them amongst us where he hath been proved a Deceiver should do well not to suffer him to speak his pretended words from the Lord except he recant his errors no more than our Saviour encouraged the Church of Thyatyra to persecute Jezebel in reproving the Angel thereof for suffering her to teach to seduce the people Rev. 2.20 and in such waies as he ought not to have suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce in the like way persons in power hinder G. W. or any that are proved to be deceivers without persecution of their bodies except that was persecution Christ approved no more doth it follow that we are such by our own confession as have not the Seal of God upon our foreheads because we say they the Quakers are a heavy judgement of God to us in this Nation and are like the Locusts out of the bottomlesse Pit for it is not said that the Locusts were a judgement or tryal to none that had the Seal of God in their foreheads but that they should not hurt them And I trow the house of God is not hurt by the judgement of God that begins there nor are we hurt by the Quakers though they be troublesome yet by occasion of that trouble blessed be the Lord we have got good they being made as means to provoke as to exercise our selves more to look to God and by contending for his truth against them to grow more clear and confident therein As for his boasts of their borders inlarged See what is said of the false Prophets many shall follow their pernitious waies 2 Pet. 2.2 All they in Asia turned away from Paul 2 Tim. 1.15 Thy were never the better for that not the multitude of followers but the truth of the Doctrine is to be regarded But above all Reader see and admire that a man should be so infatuated or blinded with malice as this G. W. appears to be in his cavilling against the words of the Holy Ghost quoted by me from Psal 63 10. Which he repeats as my words thus I. H. sayth The King Christ shall rejoice in God every one that sweareth by him shall glory c. To which he saies If every one that swears by Christ shall glory then must the drunkards and Lyars and all such prophane persons as swear by him glory And so this Doctrine mark this doctrine which is the Doctrine of the Scripture and only quoted by me with an explication of the word swear too according to the languag of the new Testament for I said every one that sweareth or confesseth which he wilfully â—â—â—â—…ed This Doctrine saies he tends to the encouraging of drunkards and prophane persons in swearing which is against the doctrine of Christ which is against the Oathes and swearing which was under the Law c. What may we think of such a pittiful man as this that shames not thus to revile the Scripture sayings What would he not have those words Printed or read would he take away those Scriptures for fear the Prophane should abuse them Nay ought they not to be taken away as I have heard it said of some of them that they reject the Bible and say it 's good for nothing or fit to be burnt or the like if the Doctrine contained in the Psalmes and Prophets tend to incourage drunkards and Prophane persons in their swearing and be contrary to the Doctrine of Christ If this be not a desperate deceiver that durst thus revile and blasphene the very words of Scripture and a man bitterly malitious that the better to colour over his charge of me therein witholds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 my explication of the word swearing by the word confessing as it 's explicated in Rom. 14.11 and Philip. 2.11 with Isa 45.23 and so a man not to be listened to but to be accounted accursed I know not who is I might also note his errors in implying the Disciples were taught by Christ to call God Father as he is Creator and not as born of God and that some thing in the Disciples but not the Disciples themselves called Father but they praying in that received what forgiveness they asked but it seems were not to aske that dayly as they did their bread for when they received what they asked then they had to more sin nor need to pray for forgivenesse And so he implies that before they were born of God or could by the Holy Ghost call Father before the Birth was brought forth in them they might pray for forgivenesse as when our Saviour teacht them to call God Father and yet to pray for forgivenesse A deal of such confused Babylonish stuffe George is full of A gaine in asking Why Christ should teach his to pray that his will may be perfectly done in Earth as it is in Heaven if it be not in this world to be done He implies there is nothing to be prayed for but what is here to be enjoyed in this world and so would exclude the coming of Christ
for the confirmation of their faith in the reality of his Resurrection though he said to Mary taking hold of his feet to worship him touch me not for I am not yet ascended Mat. 28.9 with John 20.17 For the Disciples were bid to the end aforesaid to handle and touch him Luke 24.39 John 20.27 3. To the third I say It 's probable Mary did at the same time touch him and intended to worship him with Divine adoration that occasioned his saying to her touch me not even as Cornelius fell down at Peters feet to worship him and worshipt him and John fell down to worship the Angel and both were thereupon forbidden by them so to do Act. 10.25 Rev. 19.20 4. To the fourth The two Angels that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel c. were two Angels and had two individual formes but that they had bodies as the bodies of men of the same substance with them the Scripture saies not nor do I believe it Nor find I it said that Jesus appeared to his Disciples after his Resurrection in white or shining garments or that he and the Angels had bodies alike of flesh and bones which a spirit hath not nor that a spirit hath a body without flesh and bones or a body at all otherwise then it assumes a body or appearance of a body to appear in And the inquiring and prying into these things about what is written argues a proud Luciferian spirit and a man rashly puft up with fleshly minde not holding the head or an Atheistical deriding and designe to undermine the authority of the Scriptures There is enough in what is revealed to busy ourselves about and no need to inquire of things kept secret as Judg. 13.18 Deut. 29.29 5. To the fifth That the women did distinguish which was Christ is certain but how they did so is curiosity to inquire and persumption to determine one of the foolish and unlearned questions which we are to avoid 2 Tim. 2.23 He that could appear to them in divers forms as he pleased could also appear in such a form as in which they might know him when he pleased and in such a form when he pleased as in which they did not know him as to Mary and the two Disciples going to Enimaus or he could open their eyes to discerne him or hold them from it as he would The like may be said for his speech Luke 24.16 6. The sixth The Angels of whom the women had a vision were seen visibly without doubt for of seeing invisibly I have not heard except in such a fence as the seer be not seen again which was not their case Nor were those Angels bodies or persons of men much lesse had they visible voices as is ignorantly and non-sensically queried Visible voices and audible colours are both alike 7. To the seventh in which are several Queries I say 1. That the 11 Disciples saw him after his Resurrection at Jerusalem before they saw him at Galilee for at Jerusalem they saw him the same day he arose But Galilee was above a daies journey thence Luke 2.44 much lesse could they being in mortal bodies go thither and returne again to Jerusalem the same day 2. To what is said That Luke 24.33 He appeared where the 11 were met together And yet it 's said John 20.24 That Thomas was not there with them I Answer It 's clear That Luke mentions together the things of two appearances to them distinctly mentioned by John And yet 2. It 's not said in Luke that the 11 were together when he appeared but when the two disciples returned How knowest thou but after that Thomas might be gone out before Christs appearing 3. Thomas is called one of the 12. John 20.24 Mathias was chosen into their number and reckoned with them before the Evangelists wrote those books though not before those appearances it may be and the Evangelists might speak of them according to their present accompt of them when he wrote that book And so Thomas who was one of the 12 when the Evangelists wrote being absent there were besides him but 11 of the 12. 3. As for his Ascending to his Father before that time possibly he might be said in such fence as in John 3.13 to have ascended more than once yea frequently in his spirit but in the most proper sense of his body going up thither there to be contained or received till the time of restitution of all things he was not as then ascended 8. To the eighth If by my story you mean that these are not to be taken as they are spoken of I deny it They are a history or relation of things not now to be so done or so seen now as then they were done and seen Though the usefulnesse of them is not to be known and understood but by the Spirits opening it to us in his Testimony concerning him and giving us an understanding therein But herein the Q's corrupt judgement is seen that they imply that they believe not that there was ever any such things really done or seen And so that they are very Atheistical not believing further than their reason can comprehend and therefore where they judge it absurd as generally they do the truth of Christ they turne it into a fancie and believe nothing really as it is recorded Written by J. Horne April 19. 1660. Eight Queries propounded to Richard Hubberthorne by John Horne to which his plain answer is desired accord-to his real mind in them 1. IF the believing Samaritans did know rightly and by the Spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh is indeed the Christ the Saviour of the world John 4.42 and if Paul was a true Apostle and preacht the truth when he proved that that Jesus is the very Christ And Christ himselfe said truely that his flesh is meat indeed and his blood drink indeed John 6.53 54 55. And the spirit of truth witnesses Christ come in the flesh 1 John 4.2 How canst thou clear thy selfe of being a Deceiver and false Teacher in saying and publishing that Christs coming in the flesh was but a Figure 2. What but a silly deceiver was he G.W. in his answers to the Cambridge Queries who in justification of thy said saying alledged that Christ was transfigured Might it not as well by the same reason be touched that the Apostles and Believers were but forms of men or of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.1 3. And if Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure whether dost thou believe indeed that that Christ or Jesus was a reall man consisting of a real humane body and soul that had in his body real flesh and blood really and verily conceived in the natural womb of a corporal Virgine A Virgine in such sense as other Virgines be before married to or carnally known by any man and born really of her into the world or