Selected quad for the lemma: world_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
world_n	apostle_n	sin_n	sin_v	1,996	5	9.1338	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A95338	Truths conflict with error. Or, Universall redemption controverted, in three publike disputations. The first between M. John Goodwin, and M. Vavasour Powell, in Coleman-street London. The other two between M. John Goodwin, and M. John Simpson, at Alhallowes the great in Thames-street: in the presence of divers ministers of the City of London, and thousands of others.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Weekes, John.; Powell, Vavasor, 1617-1670.; Simpson, John, 17th cent.	1650 (1650)	Wing T3167B; Thomason E597_2; ESTC R202232	95,080	122

is one thing to pray for all men indifinitely and another thing to pray for all men universally We are to pray for all men indifinitely that is all sorts of men not defining these and these particular persons as set apart for salvation but we are not to pray for all men and women universally excluding none M. Grif. I pray speake to that Proposition prove that all are to be prayed for without excluding any M. Good I prove that we are to pray for all excluding none If so be that all are to be prayed for whom God hath not excluded from our prayers Then all simply indifinitely and universally are to be prayed for but all whom God hath not excluded from our prayers are to be prayed for Ergo. Mr. Simp. I deny the Major Proposition there are some excluded the prayer of Jesus Christ and consequently they are excluded the prayers of all the Saints And besides it is contrary to Scripture 1 John 5. 16. For such a man I do not say you should pray M. Good This I prove that your answer is clearly beside the sence of the Scripture and nothing to purpose as to my argument M. Simp. Prove that we are to pray for all men and women in the world without exception M. Good This is my sence in that proposition namely that all men as they are men and before they put themselves into an incapacity of being prayed for so all men I say are to be prayed for you bring a Scripture to prove that some men that have put themselves out of a capacity of being prayed for are not to be prayed for I do not say that all men in any condition after any degree of sining whatsoever as for example the sinne against the Holy Ghost that such men as these ought to be prayed for But I say that all men considered simply as men are to be prayed for M. Simp. These are words which you bring in now not before mentioned your proposition is universall without exception that all men are to be prayed for And I give a clear Scripture where we are commanded not to pray for some and therefore your Argument is false M. Good My argument is not false because I did not intend nor did I say that all men in any condition were to be prayed for but as they come into the world I told you in what sence I affirme it And the reason why I did not distinguish and limit it was because I did not thinke any man would be so irrationall as to conceive that I did include those that sin against the Holy Ghost I thought you had had more understanding M. Simp. The thing that you have indeavoured to prove is that the Apostle in that place of Timothy exhorts that prayers should be made for all men in generall but we prove that that cannot be the sence because it is contrary to another Apostle as in this place of John M. Good Nay I tell you it is not contrary to that Scripture though it should be taken in such a sence because those very persons who are there excluded by reason of that sin The very same persons before the committing thereof were capable of prayers and consequently all men are to be prayed for yea these men themselves are not excepted in reference to their persons but in reference to their sinnes Mr. Simp. The thing which you have indeavoured to prove though not able was that the Apostle in these words did intend that all men without exception were to be prayed for But by what we bring from John it is plain that all cannot be taken in that sence M. Good That in John is nothing to the purpose and I prove it thus The committing of the sinne against the Holy Ghost doth not multiply person in the World doth not make more soules to be in the world then there were And I say that all persons even these before they had sinned that sinne they were included in the Apostles all And you cannot prove that any Person in the world then had committed the sin against the Holy Ghost and if you could yet this was not to the purpose for even these very persons before they had committed that sinne were persons to be prayed for and consequently all M. Simp. I shewed there was a positive Command that we should not pray for some men therefore what Mr. Goodwin saith cannot be according to the mind of the Holy Ghost I beseech you speak something that we may not spend all our time upon one Scripture but if you please let us proceed to another M. Good Now you take upon you the place of a Moderatour M. Simp. Sir I consider the People and I think it very unprofitable for the Hearers to insist so long upon one Scripture M. Good I conceive it most profitable for as the light of the Sun is more profitable then the light of all the Stars so one Scripture where the truth is evident pregnant and cleare may be of more concernment to the people and more edifying to them then many M. Simp. Sir you are not able to overthrow the distinction that we have given but we have overthrowne your Argument M. Good I that you have just as you have overthrowne the Apostles And I trust that those who are present and heare they do consider and see how things are carried And for my part I shall be willing to leave those things which have been argued to their judgements and Consciences M. Simp. I conceive they will and I know they will not say that all men in the world are to be prayed for when the Apostle saith expresly that some particular men are not to be prayed for M. Good This is that which I say that mens committing the unpardonable sin doth not multiply persons in the world but these very men before they had committed that sin were to be prayed for Mr. Cranf Sir you have waded in this Argument I conceive as farre as your Argument will drive from this Scripture The substance of all is this you contend that every singular man in the world is to be prayed for at least under this notion of a man quatenus homo Mr. Simpson he peremptorily denies this Propostion he cites out Text of Scripture which is 1 John 5. There is a sinne unto death I do not say that he shall pray for it You say that that sinne doth not multiply persons but states and that a man as a man was to have been prayed for before such time as he sinned that sinne He objects and sayes that Jesus Christ knew a sort of men as men that were not to be prayed for But I conceive so farre as I am able to understand that you are both gone from the main question you began with which was whether God had given sufficient meanes of faith and salvation unto those Gentiles to whom he had not given the Gospel M. Good We have proceeded in this question by direct

and in the immediate expression of it in the gift of his Son it was that men should not partake of the compleat fruit and benefit of it but upon the terms and condition of believing M. Powell Let us keep to this either the love of God is a speciall or common love if it was a speciall love then it is a love to all or unto some if to all then you must prove it if to some then it must be tied to the Elect of God M. Goodwin I gave you clearly my sense before that there is an ambiguity in the word speciall if by that you mean great wonderfull and admirable so as to affect the heart and to ravish the souls of men so both this and that in the Romans are the speciall love of God but if you mean by it such a love or such expressions of love from God which are peculiar and appropriate only to believers so I say the love of God is not meant neither in this place nor in that M. Powell I conceive that in both these places he meanes a speciall love in the latter sense for the Evangelist and the Apostle do intend this speciall love to the Elect and my reason is this because God in the Scriptures holds forth no speciall love at all but unto such persons M. Goodwin You deny the conclusion for my conclusion is that it holds forth a speciall love M. Caryll That is not at all in the Question whether the love of God be speciall as a great love or a small love but whether speciall be opposed to generall M. Goodwin If by speciall he means such a love which is exprest or born by God towards those who are actuall believers then I say it is not speciall M. Powell When I speak of speciall love I mean not speciall so as belonging to actuall believers onely but unto those who believe as well de futuro as de praesenti M. Goodwin The Scripture doth not take knowledge or hold forth any speciall love in your sense to any but only unto those that are actuall believers As for all others whom you term the elect of God before their faith the Scripture still wraps them up in the same generall term of the world The whole world lieth in wickednesse saith John Now in this word world certainly there were more elect in your sense that did afterwards believer then at the present els all the labour and preaching of the Apostles had been in vain And therefore for the elect who do not actually believe they are no where presented in the Scripture as under part or fellowship of the speciall love of God which is appropriate to believers but they are bound up in the common bundle of the world and they are enemies to God and God an enemy to them in such a sense as to wicked men M. Powell Give me leave to answer unto this You say that if we mean a speciall love that is such a love as God beare unto believers that then there is no such love in God but unto actuall believers Now I deny this and affirm that there is the same love in God towards others that are elect who are not believers as there is to those who actually believe And this I prove from two Scriptures Jer. 31. 31. I have loved thee with an everlasting love and Rom. 9. 11. Jacob have I loved c. and now from hence I will argue thus That love which these two texts hold forth it is a speciall love and it is towards persons that were not actuall believers M. Cranford M. Goodwin's argument formerly was to this effect That the love of God was the motive to the giving of Christ is extended unto the world and therefore the giving of Christ must likewise concern the world M. Powell's Answer was that by the world is meant onely the elect this was took away thus that such a construction of the word would take away the savor and sense of the Scripture Now M. Powell should have given an answer to this and proved that the love of God in that place is meant of a speciall love Now I desire you to have respect to this word world where your Argument chiefly consists and prove that the word world in a narrower sense then the whole world takes away the savor of the words M. Caryll M. Goodwin seems to conclude against any interpretation but onely that of a universall because if it be taken in any narrower you spoile the sense M. Drake Let that be proved that it marrs the sense M. Goodwin I beseech you consider the words God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever c. Now if by the world you will understand the Elect then the sense must run thus God so loved the Elect that whosoever of these Elect should believe should not perish c. For this word whosoever is a distributive word it must distribute some either the Elect or all men therefore the meaning must needs be that God so loved the world that whosoever they be whether Elect or not Elect that shall believe they shall be saved And if you look your best Expositors many of them do interpret the word world as I do universally Musculus and others M. Powell When M. Goodwin urged his Argument I denied the major and minor Proposition that the world was not taken in that sense onely M. Goodwin Why who then doth he mean by whosoever for that must needs relate to the persons of men and if to men then to some men or to all men if you will not understand it so you make an absolute nonsense of it and put a Pronoune without an Adjective Therefore this word whosoever must distribute either the Elect or all men or else some middle sort of men between both M. Drake I desire you to bring an Argument to prove it nonsense if by the world be meant the Elect. M. Goodwin Mind the words again God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him c. That which I am to prove is that to make sense of the place the word whosoever must distribute some men either the Elect or all men or some other number of men between both If you deny that it must be distributive then find a Substantive to the Adjective who doth God meane when he saith whosoever doth he not mean what man soever M. Powell I think whosoever and world are of the same signification and extent and I suppose by the world there is meant those that should believe and not the world taken as it is oft in Scripture for all men I have given my reason why it cannot be understood but in the former sense for the Elect. M. Cranford Answer punctually to M. Goodwins Argument which is that the word whosoever is a distributive word dividing the subject spoken of into two parts and therefore the word world must not be understood

great Apostle disputed against the opposers of Christian Religion which he stood up indeed to maintain against the whole world if you please you may add to those instances another in the 6. Acts 9. where you shall find that certain of the synagogue called the sect of the Libertines and Cyrenians disputed against Stephen So that ye see there were disputations as well managed against the Apostles as by the Apostles as well against Paul as by Paul against those that were enemies to Christianity and that in the synagogues of the Jews As for that which Mr. Simpson was pleased to intimate concerning the state of the question now in dispute by which he doth distinguish it from those Questions or doubtfull Disputations whereunto the weak Christians were not to be admitted I suppose there is nothing spoken by Paul against their admission thereunto but only this that weak Christians were not to be intangled or incombered or denyed communion in Church-fellowship upon points or questions that were doubtfull and not clear but ambiguous not but that the weakest of all are fit and indeed more fit to be admitted to such Disputations which may tend to the increase of their faith and knowledge then other men But now whereas he chargeth so much weight upon the question now to be debated through the assistance of God and his presence with us as that it is a fundamentall point of Religion and that which is of absolute necessity to be believed by every man and woman unto salvation I must confesse though I verily believe that I do place as much weight in it and am as tender and jealous of the honor and glory of God I may speak it upon this occasion though I be a fool for my labour as Paul somtimes said though upon another occasion as he can do in that point opposite to mine which he stands up here to maintain yet neverthelesse I do not place any such weight or concernment in the question but that whether men be of the one faith or of the other whether they be of his judgment or of mine in the point they may be saved through the grace of God which doth not stand in this that men should take part evermore with the right hand in matters of such deep and profound found consideration as this is but solely and entirely in this that they doe truly and sincerely believe in Jesus Christ for salvation Now whether it be supposed or held that Christ died for all men or onely for a certaine number of men such and such and no other this I conceive hath no influence at all but is altogether irrelative to the faith of Christians and that men may believe in Christ unto salvation whether they believe the one or the other I desire onely to add this one thing further to the Congregation here present I hope they are here met together without prejudice in their judgements or at least with their Consciences unbyassed in a point I confesse of very great concernment though not so great as hath been presented to them and therefore I desire to speak these two things very briefly to them First of all that for my self as Paul saith in another case he was a long time a Pharifee in the way of a Pharisee and very strict he was and did profit therein above many his equalls but afterwards when Christ was revealed to him those things which before were a treasure to him which he highly esteemed and thought himself in a happy condition because of them afterwards he counted them but as drosse and dung in comparison of the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ his Lord So must I professe before you all this day though in part it will redound it may be to some shame and disparagement to my self yet for the honour of him for whom I was created and for whom if I should sacrifice all that I have or am I am fully resolved herein that I cannot be better bestowed or disposed of then in sacrificing upon the service of the Lord Jesus Christ who hath been already sacrificed upon the service of my soul as of yours Now this is that which I would signifie unto you that for my self for many yeares together even since I was first capable of understanding any thing in the Gospell and Ministry of God I was of that judgement whereof it seems Mr. Sympson is at this day and though I would not speak it of my self yet I crave leave to acquaint you with what others have said in this behalf that I spake more and produced more Arguments and Reasons for the confirmation of that Opinion more I say then what generally others of my Brethren in the Ministry or others of the same judgement with me then usually did But since it pleased God to enlarge my understanding so far as to go round about the Controversie and to see and ponder and weigh with the greatest impartialness of Judgement and Conscience that I with my weaknesse and infirmities common to all was capable of going I say round about again and again and telling the towers and viewing the strength the arguments evidences and mighty demonstrations of that Opinion and judgement wherein I now stand I was not able by all the help and assistance that I had from all my former thoughts and discussions wherein I had given out my self to the utmost of that light and learning and strength which God had given me all these were of no value or consideration at all unto me to stand up against that further light which came in unto me on the other hand yea though I was conscientiously and deeply ingaged in it and this is one thing which I desired to impart unto you upon this occasion There is only one thing more and then I have done I know it is the sense of far the greatest part of you if not of the generality that in matters of Faith and Religion and which concerne Salvation though but in such a degree as the present question doth at a distance that yet there is nothing or nothing considerable to be built upon any mans reason or upon such Discourses or Discussions which are managed or drawn from the Scriptures by the interceding or mediation of reason or humane understanding which supposed Let me say this unto you that there is no man who holds that Christ Died for some particular persons and not for all but his Faith in this point doth stand meerly and purely upon the Discussion Advice and Workings of the reasons of men whereas that Opinion which I maintaine concerning the Vniversality of Christs Death for all this stands upon expresse Scriptures plaine and clear words and terms without the intervention of any mans reason to carry it or to make it out and therefore in as much as there is no place in all the Scripture that doth affirme that either Christ Died for some particular persons only or that denies that he Died for all men but many

and all that can be concluded from it if we should put your sense upon it is this that it is the will of God that all men should be saved who do injoy the means of grace but Heathens according to us do not injoy the means of grace and therefore this Argument doth not reach the businesse in hand M. Goodwin If you would please to betake your self to one steddy answer I should know the better how to proceed but by your multiplying answers you clearly argue that there is no sufficiency in any one of them And therefore you make a pile of answers that so you may be thought to answer somthing to purpose M. Simpson My answer is plaine I tell you in what sense God wills that all men should be saved and in what sense he wills that they should not be saved And now if you please proceed against this distinction I say that God by his decretive will doth not will the salvation of all men but by his preceptive will where he affords the means of salvation to a people there his revealed will is that all that believe shall be saved by Jesus Christ And I beseech you proceed against this distinction M. Goodwin What against the decretive and preceptive will M. Simpson There is a fallacy in your Argument M. Goodwin Then there is a fallacy in the Apostles M. Simpson I distinguished between a twofold will of God a decretive and a preceptive will M. Goodwin It is a signe you are jealous of your distinction because you repeat it so often M. Simpson My answer is plaine that the meanest of the Congregation may understand it and I appeale to the Moderators which is this that God doth not will the salvation of all men by his decretive will but his preceptive will he reveals it that all that will believe should be saved so that I say there is a twofold will in God a decretive and a preceptive will M. Goodwin By that superfluity of words that you come with in the rear of your Answer I alwayes forget the sense and substance of it M. Cranford This is M. Simpson's Answer that the Text speaks of the preceptive will of God which concerns only those men who live within the Pale of the Church and not at all concerning his decretive will M. Goodwin If this Text of Scripture speaks of all men without exception then it doth not speak only of those which are within the pale of the Church but the Text speaks of all men without exception therefore it doth not speak only of those who are within the pale of the Church M. Simpson I deny your minor Proposition M. Goodwin I prove it thus If so be the exigency of the context and the scope of the place doth evidently require it and inforce it that it should be understood of all men without exception and not determinately of those withing the Church then it is so to be meant But the scope and context of the place being that which must open and determine the sense of the words doth necessarily and clearly shew that it is to be understood of all men without exception and therefore it is not to be limited to those that are within the Church M. Simpson I deny your minor Proposition or if you please I will give you a distinction I grant that the Apostle in these words doth acknowledge an universality of all men but here I distinguish all men that is either first all men of all sorts qualities and conditions rich and poore high and low Or secondly all men without exception of any all men in the world I grant an universality in the first sense that it is the will of God that all men that is that men of all sorts and conditions should be saved by Jesus Christ but that it is not according to the decretive will of God that all men without exception should be saved And this I conceive to be the plaine meaning of the Text and the ground and reason why hee would have us pray for all men M. Cranford M. Simpson you should give him leave to speake M. Goodwin Sir if you please go on where you was and prove that the scope of the Context doth require it to be understood of all men and not of all sorts and ranks of men only M. Goodwin I prove it thus If so be a limited sense of all sorts and ranks of men will render the Apostle in this discourse of his incongruous defective and indeed ridiculous then the other sense namely the generall and universall which respects all men without exception is that which is here meant But the limited sense determining it to all ranks and sorts of men onely this makes the Apostle weak defective and ridiculous in his Context and discourse and therefore it is the other sense that is to be taken Mr. Simpson I deny the sequell of your major Proposition M. Griffeth How Sir what the sequell of the major M. Powell No Sir he denies the minor M. Goodwin Then I prove it that the limited sense makes the Apostle weake and defective in his Argument thus Evident it is from the Context that the Apostle in these two Verses the third and fourth doth deliver a motive or Argument to presse his exhortation delivered in the two former Verses This is cleare from this illative or rationative particle for I exhort therefore that first of all supplications prayers intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men for Kings and for all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour who will have c. Now there is nothing more pregnant and evident then that there is a motive delivered in these two Verses to presse the exhortation delivered in the two former Now then I say if so be we shall take this phrase all men here in this motive to the Exhortation in a limited sense it makes the sense of the motive to be directly opposite to the exhortation and not any way conducing to the pressing and urging of it and that I demonstrate thus Moderator I pray draw up your sense into a short syllogisme M. Goodwin For matter of context it will not readily come into a syllogisme but we will try what may be done Thus then I prove it that that sense will make the Apostle ridiculous in his argument If so be such a sense which will make the motive incongruous incoherent nay opposite unto that very end for which it is brought will render the Apostle ridiculous then such a sense we speak of a limited sense will render him ridiculous But to bring a motive which is quite contrary and opposite to the exhortation which it is brought to promote and presse this makes the Apostle or whosoever doth it ridiculous defective and weak in his argument Therefore this is contrary to the Apostles

meaning Mr. Griffeth M. Simpson be pleased to repeat Mr. Goodwins argument M. Simpson I will give it you in a shorter syllogism That which makes the motive incongruous doth make the Apostle ridiculous but this sense makes the motive incongruous and therefore it make the Apostle ridiculous Now I deny your minor Proposition and say that it doth not make the motive incongruous M. Goodwin If so be the sense of the Apostles exhortation in the two former verses be generall that he would have Christians to pray and make intercessions for all men without exception Then to bring this as a reason that God will have some to be saved and not all it is to make the motive incongruous to the exhortation and consequently the Apostle ridiculous in his argument M. Cranford The Argument is this that the Apostles motives is as large as his exhortation and that his exhortation is meant of all men M. Simpson I answer to this I must have liberty to open the text M. Good Very good you MUST have it though I MIGHT not have it upon intreaty M. Cranford Mr. Simpson you should give answer presently by repeating the syllogisme and then denying the Major or Minor M. Smpson I beseech you Sir repeat your argument for to my apprehension it was not according to forme and figure M. Goodwin You see the substance and I beleeve the power of it which makes you contend against the form and figure of it it is this if the Apostles exhortation was to have all men without exception prayed for then his motive to his exhortation must be this that God would have all men without exception to be saved But the Apostles exhortation the tenor of it is to have all men without exception prayed for and not only all sorts degrees and kinds of men and therefore requisite it is that the motive should be understood of all men for the motive must be as large and commensurable with the exhortation and consequently if all in the one must be understood of all men without exception then must it be so understood in the other M. Simpson You do not dispute according to order nor reason you are to bring in the Proposition denied in the syllogisme which is not M. Cranford It is in and the syllogisme is very good which is this That which makes the reason shorter then the exhortation makes the Apostles argument ridiculous but this limited interpretation doth so Ergo. Mr. Simpson I deny the Minor Proposition M. Goodwin I prove it thus That the Apostle in his exhortation unto Christians to pray for all men by all men he doth mean all men without exception not genere singulorum but singulari generum not all kinds of men but all particulars in every kind This I prove from the second verse if so be the Apostle doth here injoyne and exhort that prayers be made for all particulars of one sort of men and there can be no reason given why prayers should not be made for all particulars of any sort of men then it is an evident case that he doth exhort that Prayers be made for all particulars of every sort of men But evident it is that the Apostle exhorts that prayers be made for all particulars in one rank or sort of men Therefore certaine it is that Prayers should bee made for all particulars in every sort or kinde of men M. Simpson I will repeat your Argument and put it into form thus If the Apostle in his Exhortation would have all men to be saved M. Cranford No all the particulars in one kind then he commands that prayers be made for every particulars of all sorts but God would have all men to be saved of one kind Ergo. M. Goodwin You destroy the power and substance of it with your forme M. Cranford M. Goodwin's Argument is this If the Apostle exhorts that Prayers should bee made for every particular in one kind or sort of men and there can bee no reason given why prayers should not be made for every particular of all sorts then it is plaine that he exhorts that prayers should he made for all particulars in every sort and kind of men but it is evident that he exhorts that prayers be made for all particulars of one sort of men Ergo. M. Simpson I answer by denying your minor Proposition and say that the Apostle doth not will us to pray for all particular men in the world without exception that they may be saved there are a people for whom Christ prayed not M. Goodwin You deny somthing that your self say but nothing of what I say M. Griffeth The minor is this that the Apostle exhorts that Prayers be made for all particulars in one sort or kind of men M. Simpson I say that every particular person without exception is not to be prayed for there are a people in the world that are not to be prayed for M. Goodwin That is not to the businesse M. Grif. If every particular in one sort of men should be prayed for then every particular of every sort of men ought to be prayed for but every particular in one sort of men are to be prayed for Ergo This is M. Goodwins argument if you please deny the Minor M. Simpson I deny your Minor Proposition M. Goodwin I prove it clearly from the second verse For Kings and for all that are in authority From hence I gather that If Christians ought to pray as in the Apostles exhortation for all without exception that are in authority then he commands that prayers be made for all particular persons in one rank or order of men and that too of such a rank and order which the Christians then might have thought of all other ranks of men should not have been prayed for because they were the greatest enemies in those dayes unto the Christian Faith And that 's the reason why he doth specifie and instance especially in them to shew that he would have all men without exception as well the greatest enemies of the Church as those that may seeme more friendly to them prayed for M. Simpson Your argument is this If the Apostle would have us to pray for all men that are in authority without exception then it is his will that we should pray for all men of all sorts I deny the Minor Proposition it is not the will of God that we pray for all that sort that is for their salvation we may pray for those who are in authority that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life under them But absolutely to pray for the salvation of their soules that I deny M. Good I prove that the Apostles exhortation is that we should pray for all even for their salvation and that first from your own principle which saith that it is the preceptive will of God that all men should be saved If it be the Apostles minde that the preceptive will of God should take place then it is his minde that the