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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64702	The church-papist (so-called), his religion and tenets fully discovered in a serious dispute ... whereby the common ... arguments of pretended visibility, succession, universality, &c., of the Roman Church ... are briefly confuted : whereunto is added, a short discourse proving episcopacy to be of divine institution, kingly government of Gods setting up, and the religion of the Church of England, to be the best in the world / by one of the children of the late captivity, 1680.	Underwood, John, fl. 1680.	1680 (1680)	Wing U46; ESTC R7367	28,086	42

well beloved Son in whom I am well pleased hear ye him and to hear him is Life And I know They committed two Evils that forsook the Fountain of Living Waters to hew out to themselves Cisterns broken Cisterns that can hold no water Jer. 2.13 That Episcopal and Kingly Government are inseparable in England and the Establishment of both are Jure Divino WE have in the late Tragical Revolutions been too severely taught that no Project of Government either in Church or State Episcopacy excluded is consistent with England's happiness and that Episcopacy and Monarchy are inseparable and the only props of this Nations Peace we by the same cruel Experience have been made sensible whereby it appears that 't is England's great Interest to uphold both for her safety and that the one cannot subsist without the other was well understood by that second Solomon King James of blessed memory from whom we have the Maxim in his Basil Do. Sublato Episcopo tollitur Rex no Bishop no King And no Faction or Profession though nick-naming themselves Protestants deviating from the Principles in Doctrine and Practise in Worship from the present Church of England can stand with Monarchy A right Protestant of the English Church protests not only against the errors of Rome but against all Schism and errors of every Sect and against all Doctrine not agreeing with the Primitive Profession and Practise of the antient Church of Christ There are sorts of People that are ever clamorous and designing to Reform the Reformed and even to amend Reformation it self chiefly plotting a great alteration which is more than a Reformation of Church Government by removal of Bishops from the Government but these are enemies to good Reformation for no good Reformer ever held Episcopacy unlawful the Order doth emanare ab Apostolis The Government is of Divine Right of which Christ himself the Great High-Priest Heb. 4. v. 14. and Bishop laid the Foundation was Bishop over all and the Apostles were Ministers After him every Apostle had his Charge many of them a Diocess and was Overseer that is Bishop over many Churches and they left this way of Government a Pattern for all Posterity to follow So it is manifest that Church-Government by Bishops is as old and universally practised as Christian Religion and Christian Faith was received in England soon after the Crucifixion of our Saviour and the Government of the Church by Bishops entred with it as well it ought for there was no other Government Order or Constitution in the Primitive Church Apostles Angels Bishops Patriarchs c. are Synonima one Office under several Denominations St. Paul an Apostle not of men neither by man but by God was a great Apostle or Bishop Timothy had a Jurisdiction over the Ephesians and was ordained Bishop Tim. 3.22 and so was Titus Bishop of Creet and had many Ministers under them Thus entred Episcopacy and that Order of Priesthood to the Government of the Church in the beginning There was an order of Priesthood in the old Law of which the high Priest was chief and there were Priests and Levites so in the new it seemed meet to the Eternal Builder of the Church to leave by the example set by his Apostles an Order and Method of Government therein and this divine Emanation the Universal Church hath in all Ages embraced and this Order best keeps the Presbyters and Clergy in Unity one with another and in an Union of Doctrine and Worship in the Church throughout which otherwise the order of Church-Discipline left to every Presbyter's private fancy to use after his own modelling would greatly hazard the introducing as many Novels may be Schisms and Factions as there are parochial Churches in the Land what a Medly what a Confusion what a Hydra what a Babel what an open Mockery as it were of God would there be throughout the Nation to the scandal thereof so the Church in England would have no appearance no face and constant dress to be known by Strangers would be at a loss for the true English Church finding here a Hydra of many faces not one like another But who and what generation of men are wiser and more holy than the Apostles and Fathers of old to set up a new way of Government of their own contriving in Christ's Church what Power on Earth can abrogate that Government by divine Institution reared and continued by the same right all Ages in the Church of God And what necessity is here of a change or alteration of Government in the Church from that which is Apostolical to that which peradventure may prove Diabolical for what good can be expected by pulling down that which is of Gods setting up and introducing a new we know not what of Man's absolute devising But if perchance any Irregularities have crept in or undue practices contrary to the established Order have been committed in any part of this Government which should call for or minister a Necessity of Reformation surely not unhallowed hands of the prophane Laity who should be governed by the Church and not the Church corrected by them are fit Instruments of this Work especially in a Nation that hath so lately felt the dire Effects and Issues of a popular pretended Reformation and wherein those men have shown to the World what ill Workmen they are Let the people reform their own Manners This reforming part of what is amiss in the Church belongs only to them to whom the Holy Spirit said I will be with you always to the end of the World with the Church i. e. with the Apostles whose personal continuance lasted not in the World and their Successors in the Office of Apostles Bishops Pastors Patriarchs c. in the Church who shall have the assistance of the Holy Spirit for ever As my Father sent me so send I you And as Christ sent them so they sent others so what shall seem meet to the Holy Spirit and to them whom Christ hath sent and through whose word we are to believe in Christ St. Jo. 17.20 the Governours of the Church successively to whom Christ hath promised to be with and in whom only the Jus Divinum remains may reform and alter what they judge convenient for it is of the same power that chang'd the Sabbath from the last to the first day of the week and 't is from and by the same Power and Divine Authority that the Church conveys all the Ordinances Sacraments and Holy things of God to his People from Generation to Generation These Pastors and Governours with whom Christ according to his word is always present to the end of the World may I grant transfer the Government should they deem a necessity into more hands under other names than that of Bishop which note will still be but Episcopacy degenerated into another denomination the Power will be the same not altered but translated from one to many in whom the Supremacy and Jus Divinum will remain In all

Succession Numerate Sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte as saith St. August In hoc ordine successionis nullus Donatista Episcopus invenitur And our English Bishops had no succession from Roman Catholick for immediately after their Consecration Stapleton Harding c. told them to their faces they were no Bishops Ergo only the Roman Church have lawful Succession The Third Argument from pretended peculiar Privileges belonging to the Roman Church viz. 3. That Church only that have confuted and anathematiz'd all Hereticks converted Nations deprived Schismatical Bishops restored Orthodox Bishops called Councils c. that is the True Church But only the Roman is such Ergo only the Roman is the True Church The Proof THe Major is plain because these Privileges belong to the Authority of the Mother Church which is Matrix Radix omnium Ecclesiarum The Minor is proved for In Ecclesia Romana semper viguit Apostolicae Cathedrae Principatus therefore in the Oriental Councils when some Bishops would not agree divers cryed out Romam ambulent Let them go to Rome Nam a Petro inquit August ipse Episcopatus tota Authoritas nominis hujus emersit and 't is manifest no Protestant Church ever confuted Hereticks converted Nations deprived Schismaticks restored Orthodox Bishops but slept Endimion's Sleep for above a thousand years or like a Didopper dived in the Apostles time and never rose again until Squire Luther that second Elias that fift Evangelist The Fourth Argument from Universality of the Roman Church viz. 4. That Church is only Catholick which is dispersed through all Nations But only the Roman is dispersed through all Nations Ergo the Roman Church only is the Catholick Church The Proof THe Major is proved for Universality is an evident mark of the Catholick Church Si vestra Ecclesia saith St. August sit Catholica ostendite per universam terram ramos suos copia ubertatis extendere for no Heresie can be Universal no Heretick can be Catholick Protestants are so far from Universality that 't is as hard a matter to find a Protestant in fifteen hundred as motum in vacuo The Minor is as evident that the Roman Church was dispersed through all Nations by St. Paul to the Romans 3.8 where he faith that the Roman Faith was Preached in all the World that is Peter's Faith and what Faith the Romans had then the very same they have at this present for the Roman Church is not to be new bottom'd neither to be reformed of new Calciners Fidei enim Regula una omnino est sola immobilis irreformabilis as Tertullian the Doctrine of Faith once delivered to the Apostles by the prime verity Jesus Christ and assisted by the Holy Ghost for ever cannot be altered and the Church being built upon a Rock need no repairing of new Masons Soliditas illius Petrae quae Apostolorum Principe est laudata perpetua est sicut Petra permanet quod in Christo Petrus credidit ita permanet quod PetrO Christus instituit Here St. Leo saith the Church is Perpetual and cannot fail so long as Christ is the Son of the Living God And although the Protestant Church be fallible yet the Roman is infallible therefore Vivat Fides Catholica Vivat Ecclesia Romana quae fuit tempore Apostolorum est eritque per secula sempiterna THE ANSWER SIR I Derive not my Faith from Luther or Calvin as Beginners of it yet do confess with St. Paul Acts 24.14 that aften the way which they call Heresie so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers I mean as those Fathers did whom Justin Martyr calls Patres Patrûm professing the Ancient Catholick Faith all the Articles of my Faith being grounded on Scripture and the constant belief of Fathers and Couneils in the Church of Christ the first four hundred years Antiqua Ecclesia primisquingentis Aunis vera Reclssia fuit Bell. lib. 4. de not Eccl. c. 9. The Opinions of any Posterior Fathers where they vary from the Doctrine of the First I think it unsafe to follow For St. Hierom teacheth me well Nec Parentum nec majorum Error sequendus est sed Authoritas Scripturarum Dei docentis imperium nam Judaei post Baalim abierunt quos didicerunt a Patribus In Jerem. ca. 9. We are not to take error by Tradition from our Fathers or Ancestors but the true sence of holy Scriptures is to be followed and the Power of God instructing us in them for the Jews went after Baal by the example of their Fathers As your Fathers did so do ye Acts 7.51 I am of the Apostles belief and I am sure they were no Papists rather Protestants protesting the Truth and sincerity of Faith against Error and Schism So we by receiving the true Sacraments which are called Visible Signs protesting the Faith protest against those which are corrupted and against all Doctrines contrary to Scripture and the Apostolick Faith c. and so in that sence you may call me Protestant Now to prove only the Roman Church to be the True Church you say That Church only that is Visible in all Ages is the True Church but only the Roman Church is Visible in all Ages Ergo only the Roman Church is the True Church And to prove the Major you instance the words of St. Mathew Dic Ecclesiae To which I answer that 't is not said Dic Romanae Ecclesiae Tell it to the Roman Church therefore makes no more for Rome than for Greece or any other place where the Church is hath been or shall be And to prove the Minor you only say 't is cleer by Church Histories Councils and Fathers that the Roman Church only is Visible but bring not one particular proof from any of them to make it evident and evince that the Church was no where else Visible for History also tells us that the East or Greek Church though often in great misery and persecution was and is a Church from the Apostles time So that Argument which is common to others you cannot appropriate only to the Roman seeing it makes as much for the Greek Church in whose Language the Oracles of the Son of Ged were written as for it The Greek Church was first honoured with the Original written Gospel and the Latin Church had it only by Franslation from it That there was and is a Church constant in all Ages though not apparently flourishing and visible at all times to all the world I not deny but that there is no Church where 't is not Splendid and Visible to all eyes you have not yet made any ways apparent Certainly the Ark of God was not less an Ark in being in Dagon's Tent and the Hands of the Philistines Persecution the fare of the Church Militant obscured the Churches Rays in many Nations and sometimes so totally Eclipsed her as she was not visible to Humane Eyes Besides your Position that

Visibility is the only mark of the true Church you have not proved to be granted be Churches differing from the Roman therefore is a Principle of your own and a begging of the Question I deny it to be the only mark for a mark must be infallible and That mark which may possibly deceive and is common both to a True and a False Church and may as probably lead to the one as the other is no certain infallible mark to find the true Church But Visibility may deceive being common to both and may as readily lead to a False as a True Church Therefore Visibility no sure mark and unerring Rule to find the True Church The Major is undeniable bearing its own Proof Truth and Reason in it self The Minor is apparent in all Ages even from the beginning of the World to this day Go up into Paradise the Garden of Eden there was Truth and Falshood even as soon as God had laid his Church the Devil began to build a Chappel for in Genesis not long after Et Deus dixit And God said c. the Devil was busie to set up a false Worship and wrong Obedience and then comes Et Serpens dixit And the Serpent said which visibly and miserably deceived our first Parents The Church was with Moses in Egypt there were Magicians and mock Miracles Falshood ever followed the Truth or Truth found it where it went There were Calves in Dan and Bethel there were worshipers of Baal Error is almost as old in the world as Truth No sooner went the Apostles out to Preach but a false Doctrine appeared in Simon Magus and his Followers Acts 8.14 In one place or other Erroneous and false Churches have been always Visible to this day even when the true Church have been obscured by Persecutions for so it must be according to the saying of St. Paul 1 Cor. 11.19 Oportet esse Haereses Were the idolatrous People in the time of Elias Achas Manasses and others the True Church because they only were Visible to the World For where was Visibility of the True Church when the Prophet cried out and complained 1 Kings He only was left alone so a true Church may be though not visible for there were seven thousand true Worshippers which he knew not of Where was Visibility when the Shepherd was smitten and the Sheep scattered hid and concealed Zach. 13.7 Joh. 16.32 Where was Visibility of the True Church in the time of Dioclesian the Emperour when neither Church Book nor Men escaped Was she not as St. Joh. testifieth Revel 12.6 fled into a Desart where she should not be found for a space c. And St. Chrysostom in Math. 24. saith In the time of Abomination of Desolation viz. of wicked Heresie Nulla probatio potest Christianitatis c. No proof of Christianity can be made or refuge found for Christians to know the true Faith but only the Divine Scripture So the Church of Antichrist may be Visible and Flourishing when the true Church of Christ is in obscurity and hath no Lustre Therefore Visibility is not in all Ages and all times an infallible mark of the true Church but is a mark also of a false one and so a true Church hath been and may be though not Visible to Humane Eyes c. Your next Position is from Succession viz. 2. That Church that have lawfull Succession is the True Church But only the Roman have lawful Succession Ergo only the Roman Church is the True Church To prove the Major you twice instance St. Augustine but direct to no place where therefore I know not whether he speaks as you represent him or if he doth whether he denotes a Succession in Place of Persons or of Doctrine and you bring in Irenaeus to say Successione Confundimus omnes c. but there is no such saying in the manner you mention found in Irenaeus 't is only corruptly quoted by Bellarmine Bellar. li. 4. de notis Eccles ca. 8. Sect. 2. nor have I heard or found Irenaeus or any other Father make Local Personal Visible and Continued Succession a necessary Sign or Mark of the True Church in any one place as though a True Church could not be in any place without it yet the Faith was delivered over by Succession in some places or other to their time and is to our time and shall be till there be no time for a True Church may be hath been and is in places where there hath not been Continued Visible Personal Succession Were not Jerusalem Antioch c. and others in the Primitive times true Churches yet Succession of Bishops hath not continually succeeded in them to this day and later Churches are true likewise Constat omnem Doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis Matricibus Originalibus Fidei conspiret Veritati deputandam So saith Tertullian De praescript advers Haeret. c. 21. And in the same place Ecclesiae posteriores non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate Doctrinae The Succession Irenaeus stood upon was of the Churches then in Asia and of Smyrna where Polycarpus sat Bishop as that of Rome Testimonium his perhibent quae sunt in Asia Ecclesiae omnes qui usque adhuc successerunt Polycarpo Iren. l. 3. advers Haeret. ca. 3. And St. Hierom tells us Ecclesia non in parietibus consistit in Psal 133. So Succession in the Fathers Account is not tyed to Place or Person but to the verity of Doctrine as Tertullian de praescript c. 32. Ad hanc formam provocabantur ab illis Ecclesiis quae licet nullum ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis Authorem suum proferunt ut multo posteriores quae denique quotidie instituuntur tamen in eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro cansanguinitate Doctrinae shewing that modern Churches such as are daily instituted and set up agreeing and linking together in the same true Faith are no less to be esteemed Apostolical for their neerness and consanguinity of Doctrine and to that we have as good Succession as any Christian Church this day in the whole Catholick Body the Religion professed in the Church of England being nearest of any Church now in being to the Primitive Christian Church Churches that have Doctrine that is not allied in Blood to that of Christ and his Apostles have no lawful or good Succession for Consanguinitas Doctrinae is required Irenaeus speaks plain Illis Presbyteris obediendum est qui cum Episcopatus Successione Charissima acceperunt veritatis Iren. l. 4. ca. 43. We are to obey those Priests who with their Succession in the Office of Bishop have received the Pledge or Gift of Truth whereupon Stapleton Relic cont 1. q. 4. A. 2. Notab 1. is forced to confess successio nec locorum tantum est neo personarum sed etiam verae sanae Doctrinae And why it cannot be of Pastours he again tells us Notab 4. ibid. name Pastore Lups fleri potest

all Hereticks converted Nations deprived and restored Bishops called Councils c. that is the true Church But only the Roman is such Ergo only the Roman is the true Church The Major you say is plain because these Privileges belong to the Authority of the Mother-Church which is Matrix Radix omnium Ecclesiarum I answer you should first have proved her to be the Mother-Church Radix c. before you exercise or can claim the Authority of a Mother I would fain know what Church is the Mother of the Roman or is Rome it self Motherless for I deny her to be the Mother of the universal Church of God yet do agree that those Privileges you mention do belong to the Authority of the Catholick Church but 't is an insolent and intolerable usurpation of the Rights and Privileges of the Universal Church for any particular Church to confine all the Catholick Privileges to her particular self I am sure she hath not this power from Christ to judge and condemn her Sisters for she is not Matrix Radix omnium Ecclesiarum as you say there were elder than she therefore she at best but a Daughter Church and Sister to others Jerusalem if any particular was it as was prophesied of old Mic. 4.2 and fulfilled Luke 24.47 and so Theodoret lib. 5. Hist Eccl. cap. 9. tells us Ecclesia Hierosolymitana quae aliarum omnium Mater And Men were first called Christians not at Rome but at Antioch Acts. 11.26 St. Gregory Nazian saith The Church of Caesaria was Mater prope omnium Ecclesiarum meaning of neighbouring Churches not of the whole Catholick Church Et Constantinopolitana Ecclesia dicitur omnium aliarum caput so in that sense and no other Rome may be called Head of those Churches in her Patriarchat Every particular Church that teacheth the Catholick Doctrine may be called Catholick as a Member of the universal and so was the particular Roman whilst it held all things true concerning the Faith but never was she Mater Radix omnium Ecclesiarum for the Universal Church hath no particular or locall Root of its being Jerusalem as I said before if any was it Or if you will have a particular Root of the Catholick Church 't is in the East not in the West at Rome se praecisam esse a Radice orientalium Ecclesiurum c. St. August Epist 170 But the Head Root Matrix Fountaine c. of Rome and all other particular Churches is the Catholick Church and her Unity and to break her Uunity by usurping a Power or Priority which Christ never gave is at the least abominable if not certainly damnable 't is against a command too The Text is clear There was a strife among the Apostles which should be greatest St. Luke 22.14 Christ answered them The Princes and Rulers exercise Dominion c. but it shall not be so with you He that will be greatest c. St Matt. 20.26 There is no Priority much less Superiority given to Churches National Tertullian tells us Omnes Primae omnes Apostolicae dum unam omnes probant unitatem de praescript advers Haeret. cap. 20. Porro unam esse primam Apostolicam ex qua reliquae hanc nulli loco affigit B. Rhenanus therefore not at Rome And it is to be observed that Tertullian long since numbering the then Apostolical Churches reckons Rome last of them Tertull. ibid. cap. 32. and Pamelius lately puts Rome after others cap. 21. num 129. what you speak out of St. Augustin In Ecclesia Romana semper viguit Apostolicae Cathedrae Principatus that in Rome there did always flourish the Principality of an Apostolick Chair in relation to the West and South parts of the Church all the other four Apostolical Chairs being in the East doth not give Rome nor the Pope thereof power to exercise this Principality beyond his Limits out of his own Patriarchate over the whole Church of Christ for in the same Epistle of St. August Epist 162. Melciades then Bishop of Rome had leave granted him to hear a matter of the Donatists adjudged by the African Bishops and other Bishops by the Emperour were sent Judges to determine with him for if he had done it without leave the Epistle tells us it had been an usurpation seeing ad cujus curam c. ibid. it belonged to the Emperours care and charge and that he is to give an account to God for it Yea a Pope himself saith 'tis Antichristian to be stiled universal Bishop St. Greg. l. 4. Epist 78 monstrous and blasphemous Absit a cordibus Christianorum Nomen illud Blasphemiae ibid. Epist 76 and further St. Greg. Epist 83. In isto scelesto vocabulo consentire nihil aliud est quam fidem perdere So the Roman was not then universal Bishop had no power over Patriarchs and National Bishops no Monarch over the whole militant Church for near six hundred years after Christ and Britain in those times was never subject to the See of Rome for it had a Primate of its own Et a Patriarcha non datur Appellatio saith the Civil Law from whom lies no Appeal Now then the general power of anathematizing Hereticks depriving Schismaticks restoring Orthodox Bishops c belong to the Catholick Church Militant and her Authority in general Councils lawfully by her called and constituted and that the Catholick Church is our Mother no man will deny that accounts God to be his Father But this Holy Catholick Church mentioned in the Apostle's Creed is not the Church of Rome nor any other particular Church on Earth The Holy Catholick Church there spoken of contains not only the whole militant Church on Earth but the whole Triumphant alive in Heaven for so St. August Euch. cap. 56. Ecclesia hic tota accipienda est non solum ex parte quae peregrinatur in terris c. verùm etiam ex illa quae in Caelis And who converted Nations originally Did not Christ send out his Apostles and seventy Disciples at another time and then after sent many more were not then Apostles Apostolick men and the general Church they that converted and confuted Nations and planted the Church of Christ in the World Now this Holy Catholick Church before ever Rome was a Church is Matrix Radix omnium Ecclesiarum of Rome as well as other The Catholick Church was ever one and the same Church viz. the Church of God spread over the whole World and as before described by St. August Rome could never be it for if Rome a particular Church can be now the Catholick Church then by the same Rule if it be not out of Rule some other particular Church before it was the Catholick Church and how came that to lose it and Rome to get it that it is now as you say translated to Rome and doth it not follow by the same rule that Rome also may transire in non Ecclesiam pass way in no Church for what Patent or holy Charter