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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18933	The conuerted Iew or Certaine dialogues betweene Micheas a learned Iew and others, touching diuers points of religion, controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants. Written by M. Iohn Clare a Catholicke priest, of the Society of Iesus. Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge ...	Clare, John, 1577-1628.; Anderton, Lawrence, attributed name.; Anderton, Roger, d. 1640?, attributed name.	1630 (1630)	STC 5351; ESTC S122560	323,604	470

make to thy selfe any grauen image c. thou shalt not adorethem nor worship them c. do concurre to make vp one Precept or Commandement But absolutly and simply to make Images and to adore or worship them being made are two different things in themselues because one man may adore an Image which he did not make and an other Man may make an Image and yet not adore it Therefore only one of these two things is prohibited in the foresayd words Since otherwise there should be eleuen Commandements But it is certayne that the worshipping of Images in place of God is forbidden Therefore the absolute making of them is not forbidd●n but only with reference of worshipping them insteed of God Now the Schoolemen and all Latin Catechismes Primars do follow herein the first opinion of S. Augustin to wit that those words thou shalt not make any grauen Image c. do make but one Commandement with the first Precept of not worshipping other Gods And therefore Primars and Catechismes intending but breifly and in few words to set downe the ten Commandements do omit to set downe that thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. thou shalt not adore them c. because as is said these words are implicitly included in the first Commandement In like sort and for the same cause of briefly setting downe the ten Commandements we find that Latin Cathechismes and Primars do omit to set downe diuers words immediatly following in Exodus and belonging to the Commandement of keeping the Saboath day holy The words omitted are these Six dayes thou shalt labour and doe all thy worke but the seauenth day is the Saboath of thy Lord thy God c. Besides many other words there following The same course the Catechisms and Primars take in setting downe the Commandement of honoring thy Father and thy Mother where these words following are also for b●euity omitted that thy dayes may be prolonged vpon the land which the Lord thy God giueth thee Now is it not a loose and dissolute kind of reasoning thus to argue The Papists do purposely conceale and labour to put out of holy Scripture diuers passages immediatly following belonging to the Commandements of keeping the Saboath day holy and of honoring thy Father and Mother because for greater breuity they do not set downe the said passages being but meere explications of the sayd Commandements in their Cathechismes and Primars when they make recitall of the ten Commandements And yet we see the Protestants do euen in the same manner argue most wildly against the Catholicks for not setting downe those words Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauē Image c. Yf the Protestants could prooue that any one Catholicke did say or mantaine that the said words of not making Images were not Scripture and were not spoken by God in the deliuery of the ten Commandements to Moyses then they had iust reason to charge the Catholicks with great Impiety herein But this is impossible for the Protestants to do And therefore this accusation of the Protestants against the Catholicks herein is an errour as in the beginning was intimated compounded of malice and ignorance where I thinke the greater Ingredient is malice And thus much touching the supposed raizing and expunging out of one Commandement by the Catholicks The Catholicke Doctrine touching Images TOuching Images the Catholicks do teach two things First that lawfully they may be had and kept by reason of the profit proceeding from them Secondly that we hauing them may lawfully geue vnto them a peculiar respect or worship aboue other prophane things as they are things consecrated vnto religious vses Touching the Vtility This we find in them First they do instruct the ignorant and such as cannot reade and therefore they are worthely called Libri illiter atorum by some of the fathers And hence it is that the picture is so made as that for the most part it contayneth in it selfe a short abstract or Compendium of the history of him of whom it is the Image Thus for example When Christ is painted either in the shape of a yonge Child in the bosome of his mother or in the forme of a Man tyed to a Pillar to be whipped or hanging vpon the Crosse or rysing from the graue or ascending to Heauen c. And so the ignorant by behoulding the pictures are theareby put in remembrance of the Incarnation the Passion the Resurrection and the Ascention of our Lord and Sauiour And the lyke may be said of the pictures of Saincts who are commonly pictured in such sort as that the picture doth descrybe some cheiffe part of their Sanctity sufferance Martyrdome or power and authority as for example S. Lawrence is commonly pictured lying vpon the gridiron and so of other Saincts And thus secondarily it resulteth from hence that Images are profitabl● to 〈…〉 our Loue towards God and his Saincts Seing we see by experience that who loueth doth most willingly behould and comtemplate the Image of the partye so beloued by him Lastly and principally Images do greately healpe vs in tyme of prayer for seeing and behoulding them at that tyme they presearue in vs the Memory of Christ and his Saincts and so●n time of prayer our thoughts are fixed with greater eleuation of mynd vpon Christ and his Saincts by reason of the pictures ●eare present Now this is to be vnderstood that whē we pray we neither pray to the Pictures nor honour them with the honour due to God for this is the Protestants willfully mistaken assertion most wrongfully laid to our charge but only in presence of them we do in tyme of prayer prosecute God with that supreme reuerence and honour which is peculiar to himselfe alone This is the true vse which we Catholicks make of Images in tyme of our Deuotions But now before we come to entreate of the worship of Images in particular we are to conceaue that according to all learned Schoolemen Adoration or worship of any thing containeth in it selfe three different Acts. The first is an Act of the Vnderstanding by the which we apprehend the excellen●y of any thing The second the Act of the Will by the w●●ch we are inwardly moued to manifest or protest our Worship by some exteriour or interiour Act The third is an exteriour Act by the which we moue our hat or bow our leg or show some other externall signe in manifestation of our inward worship geuen Of which three Acts the second which is of the Will is most e●entiall seeing the first may be without Adoration and the third with ●rision and scorne as the Iewes worshipped our Sauiour vpon the Crosse Heare further we are to remember that that worship which is geuen to God alone is a cheife and supreme prostration and inclination of the Will with the apprehension of God as the first beginning and last ending of all things and therefore as our cheife Good and is called by

shew their loue to the Truth by their hate to this Pillar and Foundation of Truth Besides this deportment disculps great Humility a Character euen of Christ himselfe dicite a me quia humilis sum corde so true it is that an humble man is like to a lowly vally sweetly seated Thus doing Micheas no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith of which point I am in greater hope in that it is obserued that whereas many Protestants haue becom Iewes yet not any Iew a Protestant D. WHITAKER The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope since most of these are but humane and morall inducements which stand subiect to errour and falshood and you are to call to minde that to run well out of the right way is noe better then to stand still Pálin dromêsan ' è dramêin cacôs Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ only the Holy Scriptures These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies These are of that worth as that they are profitable as the Apostle speaketh To Doctrine to reprooue to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfect instructed in all good workes of that Clearenes as that iustly they may be called lucerna pedibus meis Of that fulnes and amplitude as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted out of the booke of life if we either add or detract from thence finally of that easines and facility as that for picking out the true sence we are to receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit instructed by the Holy Ghost spiritus vbi vult spirat MICHEVS You both speake learnedly And first touching your directions my L. Card. I hold them most graue waighty Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law and the Prophets being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue and seing that multiplity of reading which your method exacts to wit of the Auntient Fathers the Generall Councels Ecclesiasticall Histories is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age my selfe not likely to liue so many years as will be answerable to so infinit a labour Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short and abreuiated course for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion Touching your graue aduice M. Doctour of relying only vpon the Writen word Grant that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define and determine all Controuersies in Religion yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one and the same text I should euer rest doubtfull once abandoning the sence giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe That no Prophesy of the Scriprure is made by priuat Intepretation And sure I am that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto that I am the more easily thus perswaded euen by both your speches at this present seing both of you do strengthen and fortifie your different iudgments touching the finall determining of Controuersies euen from the Scripture it selfe But what doth the Scripture speake different or rather contrary things Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture euer the same and vnchāgable Ego sum dominus et non mutor And indeede to speake plainly when you vrge those words spiritus vbi vult spirat whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit interpreting the Scripture I euer disliked this Principle euen before I beleeued in Christ as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other so that that man who for his Faith and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion which himselfe best pleaseth is like in my iudgment to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter then of the Elements well tempred togeather since he is in possibility Anything But to proceede seing the directions of neither of you in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them can at this present sorte vnto my case I must make election of some other method for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith And vnder both your fauours it shal be this wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament as you Christians call it I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes a Christian though as yet but a Christian imperfect and scarsly initiated So out of the same deuine Records I am instructed that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith incontaminate and free from all errour Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule who in his Epistle to the Romans much celebrateth the Faith of Rome saying To all that be at Rome the beloued of God called to be Saints Grace to you And againe I thanke my God for you c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world And yet more your obdience is published in euery place finally the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans as that he particularly euen in words ascribs one and the same Faith to himselfe and them saying That which is common to vs both your Faith and mine From all which texts it is euicted that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith Now here it comes to be examined whether Rome since her first embracing of it hath changed her Faith or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine which first the Apostles did plant in her This point most excellent Men deserus an exact discussing and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall doth pleade for my ignorance herein and makes my humble request for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment to you both to enter into a graue skirmish and feight of disputation herein Both of you are learned and therefore by vrging what can be said on either side able to accomplish this my desire both of you are charitable as I must suppose and therefore no doubt willing for my confirmation in the Christian Faith to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity as euer desirous to do good omnia sperat sustinet a charitable man partakes of the

of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence

God for which you suffer See the like texts noted in the margent That the auncient Fathers mantayned the doctrine of merit of works see for greater breuity Ignatius Ireneus Basill Chrysostome Nazianz Nyssene Cyprian Ambrose Austin Ierome The iudgment of the auncient Fathers touching merit of works is discouered besides by their owne testimonyes euen from the acknowledgment of the Protestants For first we find D Humfrey to confesse in this s 〈…〉 rt Ireneus Clemens and others called Apostolicall haue in their wrytings merit of Works In like sort the Centurists thus charge Chrysostome Chrysostome handleth impurely the doctrine of iustification and attributeth merit to works They also t 〈…〉 censure Origen Origen made works the cause of our iustification Brentius in like sort saith that Austin taught assiance in mans merits towards remission of Sinns Luther styleth Ierome Ambrose Austin and others Iustice Workers of the old Papacy D. Whitakers thus wryteth of the age of Cyprian Not only Cyprian but almost all the most holy Fathers of that tyme were in that errour as thinking so to ●ay the payne due to sinne and to satisfy Gods iustice D. Whitguift as afore of praying to Saincts so of merit of works thus confesseth Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the greeke Church and Latin also were spotted with doctrine of merit Bullenger confesseth the great antiquity of the doctrine of merit in these words The doctrine of Merit satisfaction and iustification of works did incontinently after the Apostles tyme lay their first foundation To conclude this point M. Wotton no obscure Protestant reiecteth the authority of Ignetius the Apostles scholar touching merit of works in this sort I say plainly this Mans testimony is nothing worth because he was of little iudgment in Diuinity Thus farre touching our Aduersary acknowledgments of the Fathers iudgment herein Now that some learned Protestants do teach and beleiue the doctrine of Merit of Works to be true and Orthodoxall doctrine is no lesse euident then the former point For it is taught as true doctrine by the Publike Confessions in their Harmony by M. Hooker by Melanct●on and by Spandeburge the Protestant To the former doctrine of merit of Works I will adioyne the doctryne touching works of Supererogation Which doctrine is greatly exagirated and depraued by many Protestants who are not ashamed to traduce the Catholicks and to diuulge both by penne and in Pulpit that the Catholicks do hould that their works can do more then merit Heauen But this is the Protestant● 〈…〉 lumny since the Catholicks do not hould or beleiue any such thing Therefore I will sette downe the true definition of an Euangelical Counsell distinguished from a Precept seing vpon Euangelicall Counsells works of Supererogation are grounded An Euangelicall Counsell of Perfection is called any good Worke Which is not commanded by Christ but only commended by him and poynted on to vs by hym As the Vowe of Chastity of Pouerty of Obedience and diuers other good Works not commanded by God It differeth from a Precept First because the subiect of a Precept is more facill and easy then that of a Councell Secondly in that a Counsel doth include in it the Performance of a Precept and something more then a Precept Thirdly in that Precepts are common to all Men to performe Counsells are not so Fourthly Precepts of their owne nature do oblige Men to their performance Counsells are in the choyce of one to performe or not performe Lastly Precepts being obserued are rewarded being not obserued the transgression is punished Whereas Counsells being obserued and kept haue a greater reward being not kept no punishment followeth Thus far touching the definition of an Euangelicall Counsell Which in other words may be also thus defined An Euangelical Counsell is any such good Worke of high Perfection to the performance whereof we are not bownd as that we sinne in not doing of it Now whereas it is commonly obiected against the doctrine of Euangelicall Councells That we are so obbliged to God as that we cannot euer do more then we ought to do It is therefore heare to be conceaued that if we consider Gods benefitts bestowed vpon vs we willingly acknowledge that Man can not do more good then he ought no not the thousand part of that he ought to do in that Man cannot render or retaliate any thing of equall valew and worth to Gods benefitts Neuerthelesse Yf we consider the Law and Commande imposed by God vpon vs then man may be sayd to do more then indeede he is obliged by Gods Law to do For although Man cannot exceede or equall Gods benefits with his owne works yet he is not become guilty hearby seing Men is not obliged to performe more then that only which God commaundeth Euangelicall Councells take the cheife and first proufe from sacred Scripture As wheare it is said There are certaine Eunuchs who haue gelded themselfs for the Kyngdome of Heauen Which place is expounded of the Euangelicall Counsell of Chastity by Cyprian Chrysostome Austin and others A second text to omit diuers others for breuity is that where our Sauiour sayth to the yong Man Yf thou wilt be perfect go and sell all that thou hast and giue it to the poore and thou shalt haue treasure in heauen Which text is interpreted of the Euangelicall Counsell of pouerty by S. Ambrose S. Ierome and S Austin The foresayd doctrine is further confirmed by the authority of the auncient Fathers For b 〈…〉 es their expositions of the foresaid places of Scripture this doctrine is further taught by Origen Athanasius Basil Chrysostome Nazianzene Cyprian Ambrose Ierome and finally by Austin who speaking of Precepts and Counsells vseth the very Word Supererogation thus saying of precepts and Counsells Dominus debitum imperat nobis in his autem si quid amplius supererogaueritis in reddendo reddet nobis The doctrine of Euangelicall Councells is warranted and taught besydes by the former auncient fathers of the Primatiue Church euen by diuers learned Protestants According hearto we find it is mantayned for true doctryne by M. Hooker by D. Co●ell and by Bucer And thus f●r breifly of Iustification by Works of merit of Works and of works of Supererogation The Catholicke Doctrine touching Indulgences THe Vi●ulency of Protestants against the doctrine of Indulgences is most remarkable Wherefore for their better conceauing of the state of this Question or Indulgences this following in the Catholicke Doctrine First that Mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession so far forth only as concerneth the guilt or offence of God and the punishment of eternall damnation yet so that this eternall punishment by Gods Mercy is turned into temporall punishment as appeareth by the example