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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

A GODLY TREATISE containing and deciding certaine questions mooued of late in London and other places touching the Ministerie Sacraments and Church Whereunto one Proposition more is added After the ende of this Booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against And a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. PENRIES last Treatise Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie Ephes 4. verse 15. Let vs follow the trueth in loue and in all things grow vp into him which is the head that is Christ c. Imprinted at London by G. B. Deputie to Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie 1588. ¶ To the Reader TWo sortes of Recusantes are in this land the one Popish the other Anabaptisticall They giue out that wee haue no ministery no Sacraments no visible Church These men labour of two diseases the one is great pride the other grosse ignorance Their pride appeares in their behauiour which is voide of humilitie their ignorance in their Arguments which hang together like a sicke mans dreame That her Maiestie may and ought to compell these Recusants to frequent our Church assemblies I make no question There is an other sorte which either deny or doubt whether vnpreaching ministers doe deliuer a Sacrament vpon better aduise some of them confesse that ignorant ministers doe administer a Sacrament but they adde this that such as receiue any Sacrament at their hands doe sinne grossely and pollute thēselues I will hope well of these men for they erre onely for want of iudgement The holy Sacrament is one thing the ministers ignorance is an other thing the Lordes Sacrament brings singuler comfort to the worthie receiuer the ministers ignorance can neither peruert the Sacrament nor pollute the receiuer The Donatistes taught otherwise in the former time and the Anabaptistes in our time but they are notably confuted by two famous men Augustine and Caluine What account I make of ignorant ministers appeareth in this treatise It pleased God to direct my heart and penne in this holy labour therefore I assure my selfe of his gracious blessing London Maij. 6. 1588. R. S. A Table of such points as are conteiin this Treatise 1 A Godly Prince may and ought to compell his subiects if any refuse to the externall Seruice of God 2 A godly Prince may not suffer any Religion but the true Religion either publiquely or priuately in his Dominions 3 Able teachers ought to be prouided so much as can be for the Churches 4 The teachers of religion must haue maintenance 5 Almightie God blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote and embrace his Religion 6 The childe of God is not polluted though hee be present at and partaker of the publique Prayers Sacraments c. at such time as wicked men are present at and partakers of them 7 They which were baptized in the Popish Church by Popish Priestes receiued true Baptisme touching the substance of Baptisme 8 They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of Englande by vnpreaching Ministers 9 The godly are not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister 10 The Church of England is the visible Church of Christ 1. A GODLY PRINCE may and ought to compell his Subiects if any refuse to the externall Seruice of God IT is the Princes duetie to prouide able men to teache the Lordes Religion in his dominions So did Iosaphat the king of Iuda 2. Chro. 17. and Artaxerxes the king of Persia Ezra 7. therefore it is the Princes duetie to prouide that his Subiects doe heare and learne the Lords religion Teachers and learners are relatiues Great outrages were committed against both the tables of the commandements as appeareth in the booke of Iudges for euery man did that whih was good in his owne eyes Iudg. 17. 19. cha The reason of these absurdities is set out liuely and often in these words There was no king in Israel Iudg. 17.18 19. Chap. by which words it is manifest that if a religious Prince had bene in place Idolatrie and wicked behauiour had bene suppressed and the Israelites pressed to serue the Lorde That Princes doe not passe their bounds in this it is cleare by that which Augustine reporteth of and commendeth in the King of Babylon Contra Cresc gram lib. 3. cap. 51. The Prince is bound to sanctifie the Sabboth so are his subiects the Lords commaundement is flat for this Remember the Sabboth day to keepe it holy Sixe dayes shalt thou labour and do all thy worke But the seuenth day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God in it thou shalt not do any worke thou nor thy sonne nor thy daughter thy man seruant nor thy mayd nor thy beast nor thy stranger that is within thy gates c. Exo. 20. If none are exempted by almightie God none can be dispensed with by man for all are charged to present themselues in the holy assemblies And least any either prince or subiect should forget this duetie the Lord himselfe is their remembrancer in these wordes Remember that thou sanctifie the Sabboth c. that is the sanctification of my Sabboth is a matter very important it concerneth my honour but thy comfort therfore remember and forget it not If any refuse they may and ought to bee compelled for the breach of the Sabboth is a hainous sinne Iere. 17. Nehem. 13. Faith commeth by hearing of the word Rom. 10. therefore refusall to heare hinders both the beginning and growth of faith The Samaritanes heard Philippe in Samaria they beleeued Actes 8. Lydia heard Paul at Philippos she beleeued Act. 16. Augustine was a Manichee nine yeeres he heard Ambrose the Bishop of Mediolanum and was conuerted August confess lib. 4. cap. 1. and lib. 5. cap. 13. and 14. If any shal aske me why all that heare beleeue not I answere Arcana Deisunt adoranda non scrutanda That is Gods secrets are not to be searched but adored and that vnlesse Gods spirit touch the heart as the worde doeth pearce the eare Gods holy Trueth is a dead letter vnto vs. Asa Iosias were famous kings of Iuda Asa commāded Iuda to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and to do according to the law and cōmandement 2. Chron. 14. Iosias compelled his subiects to serue the Lord their God 2. Chron. 34. So did Manasses after his conuersion 2. Chron. 33. If it were lawfull for these Kings of Iuda to cōmaund and compell their subiects it is not vnlawfull for ours to do the like If it be not lawfull to compell recusants why are Asa Iosias Manasses commended by the holy Ghost for this excellent course Ezra was a learned Scribe he was authorized by the King of Persia to teache them beyonde the riuer Euphrates the Lavve of God vvhich did not knowe it and to punish such as refused to learne Artaxerxes vvarrant is set dovvne in this sort And thou Ezra after

which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry Paul communicated since his conuersion with those Priests that were as vnlearned as euer any Which he would not haue done if inabilitie to teach had made them no Priestes R. Some Then in M. Penryes iudgement the holy Apostle was not polluted by communicating with vnpreaching Ministers Can any man if he haue but halfe an eye suspect that M. Penry dissenteth from me in iudgement What then may I thinke against whom he hath written Well I must be content with the measure he offereth me My comfort is that he shall gaine and I lose nothing by it Yea I assure my selfe by Gods grace that Gods Church shal gaine by this difference Hee pretendeth great desire of a learned Ministerie but his eagre defence of ignorāt Leuiticall priests bewrayeth him If I had written so much for ignorant Ministers the great bell had bene rung out before this I should haue had it on both sides of mine eares I haue dealt very earnestly and humbly by writings and speache for a learned Ministerie I haue receiued very comfortable answere of very great and honourable personages who haue alreadie thankes be to God employed some and will I doubt not employ more in the Churches seruice The Lord increase that blessing for his Christs sake The marke I feare which M. Penry leauels at is simply to condemne the outwarde calling of the Ministers in our Church and so to shake hands with the Anabaptisticall Recusants Though he hit not that white hee will hardly misse that Butte If hee bee throughly searched it is not vnlike to fall out so Some part of his writings looke shrewdly that way CHAP. 2. ALMIGHTIE GOD NEVER called any to the holy ministerie either in the olde or newe Testament but he furnished them with giftes fitte for that holy function THE Israelites liued in slauerie and drudgerie in Egypt They were as rude grosse as might be When the Lord would make his Tabernacle he furnished Bezaleel Aholiab of the tribes of Iuda Dan for that excellent worke He gaue them skill in working all kind of broiderie Exo. 31. 36. chap. When Salomons Temple should be built Almightie God furnished Hiram of Tyrus for that stately worke 1. Kin. 7. If Almightie God for the framing and building of the Tabernacle and Temple which were figures of the Church did so excellently beautifie Bezaleel Aholiab and Hiram it is great wickednesse to thinke that his Maiestie did euer send any vnfurnished to build his spirituall Tabernacle and Temple which is his spouse bodie Citie c. When the Lord commaunded Aaron Eleazar c. to be consecrated his Priests and consequently to teach to pray for the Israelites and to offer sacrifices in which three branches the Priests office consisted he furnished them with excellent furniture for that honourable seruice The words of God himselfe are cleare for this My couenant was with Leui of life and peace and I gaue him feare and he feared me and was afraide before my Name The Lawe of trueth was in his mouth and there was no iniquitie found in his lips he walked with me in peace and equitie and did turne many away from iniquitie Mal. 2. It is a positiue law of Almightie God The Priests lips shall keepe knowledge c. Mal. 2. It is a Canon of the Apostle A minister must be apt to teach 1. Tim. 3. If Almightie God had by any warrant of his commended the Israelites heretofore to the charge of ignorant Leuites or his Church since to ignorant ministers he had broken a statute lawe and Canon of his owne and had bin greatly touched in honor Those Leuiticall priests were sent of God and pastors according to his heart which were able to feede Gods people with knowledge and vnderstanding Iere. 3. Those Leuitical priests which were vnfit to teach were neuer of Gods sending though they were of the line of Aaron Almightie God disclaimes them in these wordes My people are destroyed for lacke of knowledge because thou hast refused knowledge I will also refuse thee that thou shalt be no priest to me Hose 4. Esay was a famous man for birth and eloquence Before that hee was sent to denounce and deliuer Gods iudgements and mercies to Ierusalem and Iuda c the Lorde did singularly furnish him with knowledge speach courage c. Esa 6. and 50. Chap. Ieremy was an excellent Prophet When the Lord would vse his seruice he touched his mouth furnished his heart c. Iere. 1. In like sort dealt Almightie God with Micheas he made him a complete man Mich. 3. Elizeus attended on the plough 1. Kin. 19. Amos on the herde Amos 1. and 7. Chap. The Lorde did not vse the ministerie of Elizeus and Amos vntil he had furnished them with skill wisedome courage c. Our Sauiour Christ did not send any vniuersitie men at the first to preach the Gospel least the conuersion of men should be attributed to learning and eloquence He called rude and base men from their occupatiōs to be his Apostles Before he sent them to be his trumpets to deliuer his message he cast them as it were into a newe molde he gaue them speciall furniture Iohn 20. Act. 2. If the Lorde Iesus had not dealt thus with them how could they haue acquited themselues in preaching and disputation as they did for they attended before on fishing and other trades Saint Paul setting out in orient colours the largesse and bountie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church after his Ascension hath these wordes He gaue some to bee Apostles and some Prophets and some Euangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the ministerie and for the edification of the body of Christ Eph. 4. If these here mentioned had bin vnfurnished First Christs gift had beene no benefite but a burthen Secondly how shoulde the Saints haue bene gathered his body built his sheepe fed his spouse garnished Those Princes and Captaines which send vnskilfull Ambassadours vntrained souldiers on ambassade and warfare doe greatly stayne and dishonour themselues Almightie God which is the greatest Prince and most valiant Captaine did neuer fault in this If he had hee had giuen his glory and the Church a grieuous blowe I confesse God giues not to all his seruants like furniture Some haue ten some fiue some two some one talent which talēts must neither be buried in the earth nor wrapped in a napkin If they be vsed they will multiplie as the loaues in the Gospel They which cannot feede with manchet must feede with barlie bread Rammes skinnes goates haire were amongst the holy offrings as well as gold siluer brasse purple c. Exod. 25. If none are called by almightie God to the holy ministerie but such as he hath furnished with giftes in some measure it is the duety of the ciuill and ecclesiasticall magistrates to prouide that

ouerthrowen as Pompey was If your arguments were as tidie as your speeches are confident there were no dealing with you I perceiue the greatest barkers are not the sorest biters Answere me I pray you directly to these questions Doe you thinke because our vnpreaching ministers are not preaching ministers that no sacraments either were or are administred by them Before you denie it not If you should neither sacrifices nor sacraments were offered or administred by your ignorāt Leuitical priests for they were vnpreaching ministers Do you thinke that al such are polluted which receiue a Sacrament at the handes of vnpreaching ministers If you doe then was Saint Paul polluted which communicated with your ignorant Leuites for they were vnpreaching ministers Thus you see to what streights you are driuen CHAP. 25. I. Penry THE MINISTERIE OF OVR vnpreaching ministers is not a preaching ministerie IF the ministerie of vnpreaching ministers be a preaching ministerie or if their function be a pastorall or doctoral function then there had bene a preaching ministery a pastorall and doctorall function knowen in the Church though there neuer had bene any preacher therein Otherwise howe can their ministery be a preaching ministery or their function be a pastorall function whereas the same may be in the Church no preaching ministery or pastorall function being knowen there But no Church much lesse a ministery had there bene knowen if there neuer had bene any that could haue preached Because God ordeined the Saints and so a Church onely to be gathered together by preaching ordinarily but not by the ministery of readers because it might haue bene in the worlde yet no saint gathered thereby which thing experience in our Church prooueth to be too true R. Some You would thinke him strangely occupied that should set downe argumēts to proue that midnight is not high noone Your labour is such in this particular and you sweate moyle in it very busily The gaine you are like to reape is your labour for your trauaile You write that if no preaching had bene no Church had bene If you meane that no Church had ordinarily bene without preaching that is that preaching is the ordinarie means for the beginning and growth of the Church I assent vnto you but I adde this that it hath and doeth please God by the reading of the holy Scriptures and the working of his Spirit to renue the hearts of many If you shall answere that this course is not so ordinarie as the other I will accept your answere and withall confesse that in this point no difference is betweene vs. I. Penry My 2. and 3. reasons are drawen out of these wordes of Paul Rom. 12.6 7.8 Seeing then that we haue giftes that are diuers according to the grace that is giuen vnto vs whether we haue prophecie let vs prophecie according to the proportion of faith or an office let vs waite on the office or he that teacheth on teaching or he that exhorteth on exhorting c. The 2. reason is thus concluded Whosoeuer hath receiued a ministery and so a pastorall or doctorall function hee hath receiued prophecie spoken of in this place verse 6. Because euery pastoral or doctorall function mentioned in the 7. and 8. verse vnder these words he that teacheth hee that exhorteth are conteined vnder the word prophecie vers 6. Insomuch as he that hath not receiued that prophecie there set downe wherby is ment the interpretation of the word he hath not receiued the pastorall or doctoral function set downe vers 7.8 But vnpreaching ministers haue not receiued the prophecie spoken of in this place which is expresly set downe verse 6. to be one of the diuers gifts bestowed for the gouernment of the body which is the Church Therefore also they haue receiued neither a pastoral nor a doctorall function and so no preaching ministery R. Some Your drifte is as before to proue that our ignorant ministers are vnfurnished therefore no preachers You say true Will you conclude of this that they haue no ministerie at all that the actions of their ministery viz. the administration of the sacraments the reading of the holy scriptures c. are not profitable in any sort to the godly assēbly If you dispute thus I deny your argument and do giue this reason An absurde Magistrate is not furnished by almightie God and therefore vtterly vnfit to be Gods lieutenant but we may not inferre of this that the actes done by him in his magistracie are not the actes of a Magistrate If you tell me that the arguments for vnfit magistrates ministers are of seuerall stamps I graunt you say so So did when time was an other grosse Anabaptist but all learned men agree with me and dissent from you I. Penry 3 No ministery is separated from a gift because prophecie spoken of in this 6. verse vnder which as we see euery pastorall and doctorall ministery is conteined cannot bee seuered from a gift but the ministery of our readers is seuered in them from a gift therefore in them it is no ministery It is no ministery in them I say although that ministery the generall name whereof they haue is not seuered from a gift in preaching ministers But what is that to them what is the ministery of other men vnto them they are not ministers by the ministery wherewith other men are endued but by their owne which being seuered from a gift is no ministery Paul had bin no Apostle had receiued no Apostleship vnlesse he could haue sayd I am a minister according vnto the grace giuen vnto mee Ephe. 3.7 and not according to the grace giuen vnto other Apostles the generall name of whose Apostleship I am entituled with A ridiculous speache it were to say mine apostleship hath receiued grace but I that am the apostle haue receiued none Howe then may our readers claime a preaching ministery vnto themselues seeing the ministery which they challenge is altogether in them without a gift though it be not so in others R. Some I graunt that no lawfull and good Minister of God wants furniture of gifts If you will conclude of this that the approbation of the Church is nothing if sufficiēt parts be wanting in them which are admitted to the ministerie I denie your argument and doe offer you for my reason a floure of your owne garden euen that which you haue written before in these wordes viz. that vnfitnesse to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuitical priests office If you answere that extreeme ignorance in the Leuiticall priestes did neither barre them from nor strippe them of the Leuiticall priesthood I replie that this is a positiue and perpetual law of almightie God for the priestes then for the Ministers now viz. The priests lips shall keepe knowledge Mal. 2. yea M. Caluine a famous learned man writeth vpon that place of Malachie that Sacerdos doctor sunt termini conuertibiles that is that Gods priest a teacher are so neere of