it is agreed by all that beare the name of Christians but onely those particulars about which there is difference Serg. Paul I am also resolued by that which I haue heard from thee heretofore of all that is generally held by all Christians that there is one God which made and gouerneth the whole world who is a spirit incomprehensible and comprehending all things and one Lord Iesus Christ perfect God and perfect Man who dyed for our sinnes c. Tell me therefore onely what particular points of faith are held by the Protestants but contradicted by others Saul The first is that God onely is to be beleeued in and not any man of what title or succession so euer nor yet any company of men called the Church Rom. 3.4 because God only is true and all men are lyers neither doth the Apostles Creed propound any other to beleeued in but God onely Serg. Paul What doe you say that the Church is not to be beleeued in Is it not expressely said I beleeue in the holy Catholike Church Saul It is indeed said I beleeue the holy Catholike Church but not in it because the Catholike Church that is the Church of God being in all ages and ouer-spreading all parts of the world is an obiect of faith and not of sense forasmuch as by sense and experience wee cannot know this but by faith onely as wee apprehend the Communion of Saints forgiuenesse of sinnes and the life euerlasting Of all which the same is said that of the Catholike Church seeing there is but one Verbe I beleeue after which they all follow So that if hence it might bee gathered that the Church is to bee beleeued in it may likewise be gathered that the remission of sinnes and the refurrection of the body c. are to bee beleeued in which vvere absurd Serg. Paul What is the second particular point Saul The second is that Christ Iesus is our onely Mediator and Aduocate with the Father in Heauen neither is it lawfull to come to the Father by any other but by him and in his name alone and that the Saints departed out of this life know not of our seeking their mediation if wee should craue it Serg. Paul Is the Lord so strict that by him wee are thus restrained from all Mediators in Heauen and yet directeth vs to craue the helpe of others vpon earth to pray for vs Saul It is the voice of Gods own Spirit There is one God 1. Tim. 2.5 and one Mediator betwixt God and Man of whom onely and of none else mention is made sundry times as Ioh. 14. Ioh. 16 Rom. 8. 1 Ioh. 2. As for that direction to craue the prayers of men vpon earth it is that by hauing mutuall help one from another our mutuall loue might increase which cannot be in crauing their mediation in Heauen seeing howsoeuer our loue may increase towards them yet theirs is already fully perfect But to insist vpon nothing else they cannot heare vs as the liuing doe and if they heare it is kept secret from vs neither hath the Lord spoken one word to direct vs to them without which who so seeketh to them may iustly haue the complaint taken vp against him Ier 14.14 Hee runneth before he is sent Serg. Paul What is the third particular point Saul The third is that we are iustified and saued only by faith in Iesus Christ and that our workes euen when we are at the best merit nothing towards our eternall glorification For to this effect speaketh the Lord. Luke 17.10 When yee haue done all that ye can say that yee are vnprofitable seruants And Saint Paul A man is iustified by faith Rom. 3.28 without the workes of the Law Serg. Paul Is not the worke of him that hath faith then of more vertue then his that hath none Is he not Christs member and so Christs vertue his vertue that as in Christs actions so in his there should be merit Saul The workes of the best are of no more vertue to merit because hee is still a seruant and bound in duty to what hee doth whereas merit implyeth doing more then duty requireth And as for Christs vertue communicated vnto him it is sufficient that he is made thus worthy though not his works seeing perfect blessednesse is already fully merited by Christ for him neither is there need of any more merit Serg. Paul Can hee be said to be iustified then that hath no workes but resteth vpon a bare faith Saul No by no meanes for faith which iustifieth worketh by loue is liuely by workes as the bodie by the soule Wherefore Saint Iames writing against such a faith as is without workes Iam. â— 24 saith A man is not iustified by faith onely but by the workes of the Law That is hee is not become iust and righteous in the sight of God that hath a single and bare faith but proueth his faith sound by his workes For that he disputeth not of faith which is the sauing grace wrought in the hearts of the Elect but of a common faith of which euen Deuils are capable is plaine from the Text. For onely that common faith is the faith of which he saith A man is not iustified by faith onely Serg. Paul What is the fourth particular point Saul The fourth is that faith assureth a man without wauering or doubting of the remission of his sinnes and of eternall saluation Rom. 4.20 For such was Abrahams faith Hee doubted not through vnbeliefe but strengthened himself in faith And that faith which is ioyned with wauering in any man is like the waues of the Sea Iam. 1.6 Serg. Paul This is much that man should come to know so farre what the will of God is touching his future estate It may be that some singular man as Abraham or the holy Apostles might surely know by reuelation because they had more then ordinary acquaintance with God but for other beleeuers I cannot see how they should know though they may all hope well Saul There is great reason why any faithfull person should know this because hee hath receiued the Spirit of God 1 Cor. 2.12 which knoweth Gods will euen as the spirit within a man knoweth his minde Serg. Paul But seeing euery man is apt to conceiue the best of himselfe and naturall presumption ofttimes assureth a man of his saluation how shall he know that it is the spirit whereby hee commeth to be thus assured and not his owne partiall fantasie Saul It is a great indignitie to the Lord when as he hath taught vs Rom 8.16 that his Spirit witnesseth with our spirits that we are the children of God to question whether this testimonie can be knowne for wherefore serueth the testimonie of any if it be vnknowne Many indeed doe through their own fault deceiue themselues because being void of the spirit of sanctification they presume But hee that is renued in his mind vnto holinesse can
thus I haue faithfully related the practice of the Reformed or Protestant Church Serg. Paul But why is this called the Reformed Church hath Christ any more Churches but one Saul No the Church of Christ is but one wheresoeuer dispersed in all the world but this Church partly through the ambition and couetousnesse of the Popes of Rome and of the rest of the chiefe of the Clergie and partly through blind deuotion became very corrupt both in doctrine and manner of seruing God wherein hauing lyon many yeares to the griefe of the truely zealous and wise who did what they could or durst to rectifie things againe but without effect at length though very loth so to doe many without feare of bodily danger separated themselues from all society and communion with those that still adliered to these curruptions teaching and holding as hath be one before deelared who notwithstanding the hot brunts of persecution which they met withall increased dayly whole Countreys and Kingdomes being in a short time by Gods prouidence ioyned vnto them And because of this reformation about which they made then protestation that simply for conscience towards God and his Truth and onely according to his written Word they thus proceeded they were called the Reformed or Protestant Church others willfully cleauing to their corruptions still and to the Pope and Roman Clergy the chiefe maintainers hereof were called the Church of Rome or the Popish Church or as they needes will haue it Roman Catholikes Serg. Paul Then it seemeth that the Church anciently one is now become two the one opposite to the other Or are they both one Church still but diuided for their contrary opinions and manners in many things Saul As the Church of Christ hath beene so it still is and euer shall bee one and not two for it is Christ Spouse which is onely one I doe not therefore acknowledge but aduisedly deny the Church of Rome to be a true Church of Christ Reu. 3.1 As the Church of Sardis had a name to be aline but was dead so it may hold this name still but is indeed a very carkasse without a soule by reason of the grosse errours therein maintained and practised for truth is the life of the Church The reformed Church then is the onely true Church neither may we returne againe to them vpon paine of damnation but they must and shall come to vs at the last for truth is stronger then all Serg. Paul But the maine truth is still maintained in the Church of Rome viz. That Iesus is the Sonne of God and hast not thou thy selfe taught 1. Cor 3. that who so buildeth vpon the foundation Christ Iesus though but hay or stubble which shall hurne yet himselfe shall escape as it were through the fire What is this but that so Christ bee cleaued vnto no erroneous opinions or practice in the seruice of God shall damne the soule Saul The Church of Rome teacheth indeed generally this truth touching Christ Iesus but in the particular explication of what they hold hereabout they doe plainly raze this foundation and so their building is not vpon the foundation Christ described in the New Testament but imagined in their owne braines Againe although the foundation were rightly held yet they are builders onely that shall be saued not destroyers or demolishers as they of the Church of Rome are Serg. Paul Wherein doe they raze the foundation Christ Saul In that they doe not rely vpon Christ only for saluation and grace For this is the property of a foundation to beare vp all the building alone if it be the only foundation as I haue taught that Christ is If then the building rest partly vpon some other foundation this is in effect razed because though this be sound yet the other vpon which it partly standeth being deceitfull and vnsound when that shall faile the whole building cannot but come downe Serg. Paul It seemeth then that Christ is the foundation to them onely that rest vpon him alone and that they which together with him rely vpon any thing else are in effect gone from the foundation and so shall haue no more benefit of it then they that hold not Christ at all Can you proue the Roman Catholikes to be such Saul There is nothing more plaine to them that will vnderstand For first when Christ only is relyed vpon and so made the onely soundation his passions alone are held to be fully satisfactory for all punishments due to vs for all our sins both temporall and eternall Secondly all merit whereby we become worthy of saluation is held to be in him onely Thirdly His mediation onely to God the Father is rested vpon to obtaine any benefit or helpe in the time of need Fourthly The beginning progresse and perfection of all grace is imputed to him onely through the working of his Spirit and nothing to a mans selfe But the contrary to all these are maintained in the Church of Rome Serg. Paul Declare this more particularly and first that they rely not vpon his passions onely as fully satisfactory Saul They say that he hath satisfied for all eternall punishments in hell but not for temporall for these are left to vs to be satisfied for partly here by acts of penance and partly hereafter in purgatory And that there are certaine lesser sinnes called veniall for which we our selues must satisfie Flatly contrary to Saint Iohn who saith 1. Ioh 1.6 the blood of Iesus Christ cleanseth vs from all sin And I haue taught that Christ hath redeemed vs from the curse of the Law being made a curse for vs Gal. 3.13 Now this curse did as well extend to temporall as eternall punishments witnesse Moses his dilating vpon it Deut. 28. and Leuit. 26. throughout which Chapters he sheweth that the curse comming by sinne is temporall Serg. Paul If Christ had satisfied herein for vs were it not iniustice in God to put his to so much smart againe daily by sickenesses losses ignominies and persecutions in the world Saul It were iniustice indeed if our sins being forgiuen and clensed away in Christs blood hee should still require vs to be temporally panished Luke 23.16 This were iust Pilates iustice I finde no fault in this man I will therefore scourge him and let him goe God forbid that wee should once thinke the most righteous Lord to be such in his proceedings It is to bee vnderstood therefore that the smart imposed vpon vs here is onely either for our triall or for our correction in loue as parents are wont to deale with their children Serg. Paul What doe they hold touching merit Saul That Christs death and passion alone are not the meritorious cause of our saluation but the blessed Virgin Mary and the holy Apostles and other Saints which haue suffered death for the Gospell haue also merited for vs and that there is merit in the sacrifice of the Masse extended to all both quicke and dead and
in the workes of the regenerate through which they become worthy of heauen Serg. Paul The Saints are so neere vnto Christ as that it seemeth to be all one to ascribe merit vnto their passions and to hiâ—â— if they were diuerse from him it were to lay another foundation indeed Hast not thou written to the same effect saying Col. 1.24 I fulfill therest of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body which is his Church And touching the Masse and good workes of the regenerate whatsoeuer vertue is ascribed hereunto it tendeth the more to the magnisying of Christs merit which is able to giue vertue to other things to mâ—rit also Saul These are plausible reasons indeed to dâ—ceiue the simple but he which hath any vnderstanding can consider that by the like reason the sunne moone and starres might safety be associated vnto God in diuine worship for they are neere vnto him also And for that saying of mine if any other part of my writing or of the whole Bible did sound to the seconding of such an acception it might well bee taken so but considering that I haue plainly professed elsewhere that Paul is nothing and Aposlo nothing 1. Cor. 3. Phil. 3.9 and that Christs righteousnesse is that onely wherein I desire to bee found Mee thinkes what I haue said to the Colossians should not be wrested so but bee simply taken of my sufferings in going about to doe good vnto the Church which I call Christs sufferings because vndergone for him who taught me sometime Act. 9. that the persecuting of his members was the persecuting of himselfe Lastly where there is any such extent of the vertue of Christs passion to make other things meritorious certaine it is good to acknowledge and extoll it but out of this case as it is in the matter of the Masse and of good workes it is a plaine derogating from Christs merit the onely sure foundation and a razing of it That there is no merit in these things hath beene sufficiently shewed heretofore Serg. Paul But did not the blessed Virgin Mary merit any thing for vs by thos passions which she had together with Christ in her soule when he hung vpon the Crosse Saul I am glad that you put me in mind againe to speak of this that the abhomination of the Romish religion might the more appeare For indeed they make her aboue all the Saints not onely a mediatrix of intercession but of Redemption also affirming that her standing by when the Lord suffered vpon the crosse full of sorrow to be hold it was a ioyning with him in our Redemption and therefore where as it is said of Christ hee shall breake the Serpents head they turne it she and whereas the Prophet saith in his person Gen. 3. I haue troden the winepresse alone there was no man with me Esa 63.3 they say there was no man indeed but that blessed woman yea and so farre be the Iesuites gone in their dotage about her meriting as that they make comparisons betwixt her milke and Christs blood ascribing as much to the one as to the other as appeareth in the booke called The Iesuits Gospell Serg. Paul Touching his mediatorship doe they rely vpon any other Mediators Saul Yes that they doe for they make both the Virgin Mary and all the Saints departed mediators vnto God for them in all their common prayers desiring them to pray for them and sometimes as though they had the disposing of heauen that they would conferre vpon them the Kingdome of heauen Serg. Paul Although Christ be the onely Mediator of Redemption yet there are more mediators of intercession for we all must pray one for another It seemeth therefore that this doth no more raze the foundation then desiring the Elders of the Church to pray for vs in the time of sicknesse Saul I haue already spoken enough to shew the error of this practice It shall suffice therefore onely to adde thus much more that this distinction betwixt a Mediator of Redemption of intercession in heauen is vaine for as Christ is the onely propitiation for our sinnes 1 Iohn 2.2 Rom. 8.34 so hee onely at the right hand of God maketh intercession for vs. If any else doe the like it is concealed from vs neither are wee bidden to come by them but altogether by the Sonne vnto the Father Moreouer we cannot come by any in heauen vnto God but wee must ascribe vnto them the diuine attribute of omniscienceâ— wherby they know all things though neuer so remote from them which is to rob the Lord of his peculiar honour as if Maiesty or Supreme power were ascribed to any of the kings subiects Serg. Paul Proceed new to the last point what doe they hold touching the beginning and proceedings of Grace Saul They teach that there is in euery man free will whereby hee can desire and doe preparatiue workes vnto grace which the Lord beholding hath mercy vpon him and inlargeth him being before in prison and bound as it were with chaines and then hee becommeth able to doe according to his desire that is perfectly to fulfill Gods Commandements for which he shall finally haue the reward of eternall glory bestowed vpon him Serg. Paul And haue they not good ground for this in the example of Cornelius Act. 10. whose almes and prayers done before his conuersion were acceptable to God so as that hereupon Peter was sons vnto him and the holy Ghost was bestowed vpon him Saul God had wrought in the heart of Cornelius before this Act. 10.2 for hee is said to haue beene a deuout man and one that feared God which could not haue been spoken of him if he had been a meere naturall man Therefore from his example no good argument can be made to proue preparatiue works in naturall men Hee had doubtlesse so much grace and knowledge as was incident to the faithfull before Christs comming in the flesh onely hee wanted the knowledge of his person in particular already come to preach which and that withall he might receiue the holy Ghost Peter was sent vnto him Serg. Paul But how doth this raze the foundation Christ Saul Because vpon Christ all our well desiring and doing doth depend We cannot thinke a good thought as of our selues but all our sufficiency is of God 2. Cor. 3.5 Ioh. 15.5 1. Cor. 1. Gen. 6.5 and the Lord hath plainly said without me ye can doe nothing and touching a naturall man the wisdome of God is foolishnesse vnto him all the imaginations of his bea rt are onely euill continually To teach that then whereby a man shall bee brought in part to rely vpon himselfe is in effect to disanull Christ the alone ground of our well doing and desiring Serg. Paul I am well satisfied by this touching your first reasen prouing that the Roman Church is no true Church of God me thought you game me an hint of a further reason in saying
Anno 409. the worshipping of Saints Reliques is declared to be heathenish and supplication vvas made to the Emperour that Reliques should be abolished In a Councell at Laoduâ—ea Anno 368 the worshipping of Angels is condemned as horrible idolatry Petrus Gnapheus is noâ—ed to bee the first that brought inuocation vpon the Saints into the publique seruice Anno 500 Niceph. l. 15 c. 28. and at euery turne the mention of the Mother of our Lord. And about Anno 600 Pope Gregory the first appointed your Liturgy with prayers to all the Saints as now it is Anthony was the first that renouncing the world led a solitary life in the Wildernesse because of the hot persecutions of the Church Anno 300. For so Frising saith Lib. 4. cap. 5. There were in these dayes famous Princes of Cbrists Kingdome Paul and Antony the first Eremites And Basilius first built Monasteries Basil Episâ— 63. for hee saith that the Neocesareaus obiected vnto him the newnesse of a Monasticall life Eustatius an Hereticke extolled a Monasticall life and condemned mariage holding it necessary to saluation to forsake all and to turne Monke Against him a Councell was assembled at Gangra Anno 324 and his opinions were condemned where they professed that they honoured true Virginity and withall the chaste bond of mariage c. Auticular confession to a Priest began not till An. 800. It was first appointed in Concil Cabiloneusi 2. c. 32. and coneil Mogunt in the time of Gregory 4. c. 26. Before if it were vsed yet it was not inioyned yea warning was giuen against it Chrys hom 4. de Laz. Chrysostome saith Take heed that thou tell not thy sinnes to man lest bee vpbraid thee but shew thy wounds to the Lord Scal paradisi Grad that hath a care of thee that is gentle that is the Physitian And Iohannes Climacus An. 580. Before all things let vs confesse our sinnes onely to the Lord our iudge and bee ready at his command to confesse them to all men And with confession began workes of penance For before Chrysostome speaking how a man might attaine peace with God saith Hee hath not commanded thee to passe ouer the Mountaines Chrys in Math. Hom. 55. to sayle ouer the Seas to digge so much ground to remaine fasting or to put on sackcloth but to giue of that which thou hast vnto the poore Serg. Paul But seeing you acknowledge most of these things to be very ancient and the Fathers which subscribed vnto them with the Church in their dayes to be the true Church of God Why haue you vtterly abolished all these things Had it not been better to haue restored them onely to that state wherein they were in the time of the Fathers cutting off the accessions that haue since been made Paul No by no meanes for it would not haue beene so safe to hold these customes after their manner seeing they haue since proued rootes of most pestilent weeds lest in time there should bee danger of the same euils comming on againe Euen as it is no wisedome in taking away Bâ—yars and Thornes off a ground to preserue the rootes still For from their praying for the dead to expresse their affection if happily they might increase their ioyes or mitigate their paines sprung an opinion of a third place wherein the soules of the faithfull are tormented but may bee holpen out by praying for them From vsing a crosse in the aire for commemoration of their Christian profession sprung confidence and adoration of the Crosse From mentioning the Saints departed ouer their altars praising God for them sprung praying vnto them From annoiling to heale sicknesse of the body sprung annoiling to conferre grace to the soule From a Monasticall life taken vp for necessity sprung vp an opinion of the necessity of a Monkish life in all that would be perfect and of the merit hereof Serg. Paul You haue not yet shewed the first broaching of that doctrine touching freewill instification by workes in part vncertainty of faith of perfection the merit of workes and of workes of supererrogation nor of Christs satisfaction onely for eternall punishments which you shewed did chiefely pull downe the foundation I pray you therefore now shew the beginning of these points also Paul This whole brood was hatched almost at one time viz. of the Schoolemen about Anno 1200 or of the Councell of Trent Anno 1500. That man hath freewill to desire to trune vnto God as one wounded and halfe dead hath to be succoured was vtterly reiected by the Fathers especially after that occasion was giuen by Pelagius an Hercticke to looke more narrowly into the truth hereabout Before they speake somewhat vncertainly De Sp. lib. c. 3. de dogmat Ecclesiae c. 27. Cont. Epist 2. Pelag. l. 3 c. 8. but then Augustine saith Freewill anatleth to nothing but to sinne And againe A holy thought a good purpose a godly counsell and euery motion of a good wil is from God And againe freewill anaileth to nothing but to sinne And with him consenteth Ierome against Pelagius and Prosper and Chrysostome who saith that wicked men are altogether dead Yea to the dayes of Bernard the same was held For he saith We haue power to will Barn de gra lib. arbuitrio but neither good nor euill to will good is a profect to will euill is a defect O r freewill maketh vs willing but grace well willing And nothing is more frequent amongst the Fathers then to teach that whatsoeuer proccedeth from a naturall man is sinne Ieron in Gal c. 3. Heare Ierome for all who saith without Christ all vertue is vice This point then is not yet foure hundred yeares old Elymas Nothing was more frequent in the mouths of the Fathers before Pelagius then freewill Apol. 1. Lib 4 c. 71. Iustin Martyr saith that there were nothing in men worthy of praise if they had not equall power to turne themselues either way Ireneus saith Man hath power to choose euen as the Augels Wherefore their impugning of freewill afterwards was to bee imputed to the heat of their opposition made to Pelagius who taugâ—â— that men had power to turne to God and to keepe his â—â—mmandements out of the libertie of their free-will Paul That which you alleage touching their oppugning Pelagius may much more truely bee applyed about their sayings wherein they seeme to be for the freedome of mans will for they had to doe with the Marcionitel and Mannichces who held a necessity of all things wherby men were caried either to good or euill and hence it came to passe that they vttered such sayings as these but when they saw the danger of the Heresie touching free will ensuing they laboured by speaking against it to quite themselues from the least aspersion this way Serg. Paul And truely this is most likely for the proper time for a man to expresse what he holdeth is then when disputation is moued about