and a surplussage to be bestowed vpon others which you terme workes of supererrogation your doctrine of free-will whereby you doe attribute vnto man an absolute power to doe all good workes and thereby to merite heauen And your doctrine of the keys whereby you doe attribute to the Pope and his Priests power to forgiue the sinnes both of the quicke and dead an easie way to heauen for such as haue money and are disposed so to dispose it is not this doctrine as contrarie to the word of God as light vnto darkenesse Pap. I will answere you herein as briefely as I can desiring you first to a VVhich you seeme not to vnderstand your selfe vnderstand rightly the doctrine of the Church of Rome in these points and then to iudge indifferently First therefore concerning iustification by workes we doe hold with Dauid that the iust man offendeth b Then must hee doe seuen good workes else can he not bee iustified by workes 7. * Pr. 24 16. It is Salomon not Dauid nor doth Salomon say seuen times a day that is no addition to the text times a day we doe acknowledge also the death of Christ to be sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world we doe confesse that euery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue and that our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth yet we doe hold therewithall that our good workes such as they are being clensed in the bloud of Christ are both c They may be acceptable but meritorious they cannot be acceptable vnto God and meritorious which we doe ground vpon the promise of our Sauiour Christ where he saith he that giueth to one of these little ones a cup of cold water shall not want his d VVhat reward temporall or eternall or what reward grace goeth before and draweth vs vnto good workes our will consenteth and worketh together with the grace of God so that as S. Austine saith Tractat. 3. primi cap. Iohannis God crowneth his owne gifts in vs and giueth vs grace for grace this is our Doctrine of Iustification by workes wherein we doe e Then nothing that is good in man can merite ascribe whatsoeuer is good in man vnto God as vnto the Fountaine attributing nothing vnto our selues f This tale will hardly agree within it selfe but the libertie of our will whereby to apprehend the grace of God offered vnto vs which frée will also we doe acknowledge to be the gift of God Concerning the merits of dead Saints we doe hold that as God doth may times spare the wicked for the righteous that are liuing among them and shewe mercie vnto thousands in them that loue him and kéepe his commaundements euen so he doth many times spare the liuing for the righteous sake that are departed hence g You are deceiued it doth not appeare there as appeareth in the 2. of the Kings Cap. 13. Where you shall find that the Children of Israell were deliuered from the hand of King Aram for Abraham Isaak and Iacobs sake whereby h You must prooue it better before I can see it you sée that the merits of dead Saints are auaileable vnto the liuing whereupon we may conclude further that if the children of Israel were spared for Abrahams sake who was dead that it was lawfull for the Iewes to pray vnto God that he would deliuer them i That is for the couenant sake made with Abrahā which being graunted you are at a stop for Abrahams sake which being graunted why is it not as lawfull for Christians to pray vnto God to be mercifull vnto their sinnes for Saint Peter and Saint Pauls sake This Doctrine was beléeued and practised in the Church in Saint Austines time as appeareth Can. 40. Meditationum where he prayeth to be deliuered from all euill by the praiers of the Patriarkes by the merits of the Prophets c. And more than this the Church of Rome doth not attribute vnto the merits of Saints The Answere HEere our Protestant layeth three capitall errours to the charge of the Church of Rome First iustification by our owne workes and the merites of dead Saints Secondly free-will to merite heauen Thirdly forgiuing sinnes by the power of the keys Mar. 2 7 Luk. 5 21. which the Scribes and Pharisies as blind as they were knew and professed to be blasphemous herein I will answere you saith our Papist as briefely as I can yea but when shall wee haue your briefe answere Marry first I must desire you saith he to vnderstand rightly the doctrine of Rome in these points Well but will you then be so good as answere vs as briefely as you can Yes marrie will I for I will say nothing at all and that 's as briefe an answere as can be deuised Thus this mans pleasure is to delude vs with expectation of an answere which hee God wote is not able to afford vs and therefore we must be content with we hold and we confesse and what 's that thinke you Marry the iust man offendeth dayly the death of Christ is sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world and our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth which is sufficient to perswade any man that is not contentious that we are not iustified by our workes for that which is sufficient needeth not to be pieced and patched with a polluted clowt of our righteousnesse yea but our workes iustifie not so long as they bee polluted but after they are clensed in the blood of Christ and so they are both acceptable and meritorious Alas man that 's not the question whether they be acceptable and meritorious but whether they iustifie and the filly fellow himselfe telling vs that our workes are clensed in the blood of Christ tels vs withall that we are iustified not by our workes Act. 15 9 Mar. 7 21. that want clensing but by faith in the blood of Christ which clenseth our works and makes them acceptable howbeit all the world together in a heape will neuer be able to proue that works polluted with an arrogant conceit or intention of iustifying can bee possibly clensed in the blood of Christ his blood can no way else clense that which euacuateth his crosse and passion but by taking it away quite and reforming the proud conceits of such heretickes And touching meritoriousnesse the verie name is odious to the seruants of God Paul saith 1. Cor. 4 4. Luk. 17 10. I know nothing by my selfe yet am I not thereby iustified and our Sauiour hath taught vs to say wee are vnprofitable seruants and haue done that which our dutie bound vs vnto when wee haue done all that is commaunded but what should I labour to take away merites which this man himselfe groundeth vppon the promise of Christ Genes 15 6. Ro. 4 3 9 13. Galat. 3.18 22 c. I hope the promise of Christ was free and must be layd hold vpon by faith not workes as Abraham did for
euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
supposed to be deliuered and commended to vs by none but them These words though they seeme plaine haue some doubt which somewhat quaileth the force of them for it is not so easie to know whether ab ipsis should be referred to Apostolorum or posterorum howbeit I say further that the Traditions that Augustine speaks of are of the same nature with that one Tradition which he treats of in those Bookes against the Donatists namely the not rebaptizing of Heretickes which though it bee not expresly and explicately set downe in the writings of the Apostles yet Austine himselfe knew it might be soundly deduced out of the Scriptures and so hee testifieth almost in euerie Booke of that worke against the Donatists Haeres 75. The other place which he alleageth out of Austine sspeaks of a Tradition indeed but it was a Tradition of the Fathers not of the Apostles and euen so saith Epiphanius of the very same tradition Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta the Church doth this by a tradition receiued from the Fathers In Philip. homil 3. And therefore Chrysostome went too farre when he sayth Ab Apostolis sancitum est it is decreed by the Apostles but though there be places of good shew in Chrysostome yet your Papist could say no more but that hee citeth a place out of the Canons of the Apostles and yet quoteth neither Booke Chapter leafe nor Homily where a man may finde it in Chrysostomes workes howbeit if hee meane the Apostles Constitutions he hath his answeare if those Canons that be set downe in the first booke of Councels I say they neuer sawe any of the Apostles but were begotten in later times as it is most cleere in the Canons themselues Can. 8. Si quis Episcopus aut presbyter aut Diaconus sanctum paschae diemante vernale aequinoctium ex Iudaeis celebrauerit abijciatur If any either Bishop or Priest or Deacon shall according to the manner of the Iewes celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernall equinoctiall let him be deposed If this had been inacted by the Apostles it may bee wondred how there could be such adoe about the feast of Easter betweene the East and West Churches the whole matter being so cleerely decided aforehand by the Apostles themselues Againe when we read in another Canon Can. 30. that such Bishops as came by their Bishoprickes by secular Princes should be deposed it is easily seene that some of these Canons were not shot off till the time of Christian Magistrates for Infidels I trow vsed not to giue Bishopricks neither was there euer any so farre beside himselfe as to seeke a Bishopricke by their meanes if this will not content your Papist then let him shew me some reason why these Canons are not set downe as a part of the new Testament but marked by Pope Gelasius for apochryphall Apud Gratian distinct 15. C. Rom. Ecclesia and then I will consider whether it bee needfull to giue him another answere Thus haue I runne ouer the choisest testimonies that hee could finde in all the ancient Fathers and Doctors for if hee could alleage all as it were with one mouth to speake for his blinde Traditions as here he bragges it is to be thought that either he hath chosē the best or els that he hath no iudgment as for Saint Iohns Gospell beside the Maiestie of the stile let him read Epiphanius against the Alogians and there hee shall finde some better proofes for the confirmation and defence of it than the testimonie and consent of antiquitie Nowe touching his Dilemma which hee takes to be so intricate a verie childe may easily dissolue it for wee doe not hold that any thing can make a damned hereticke but the stiffe and peruerse holding and auouching of such doctrine as is contrarie or inconsonant to the holy Scriptures whereof the Fathers are not guiltie neither will any Papist at this day stand in defence of such Traditions as agree not with the word written The Dialogue Sectio IIII. PRo Your learning I confesse is farre beyond mine yet if you will giue mee leaue to presse you with your own argument I doubt not but I shall compell you to make such an answere as may serue vs both Pap. Take your course Pro. You shall finde in Epiphanius Haeres 73. that the Apostles did ordaine that the Wednesdaies should bee fasted through the whole yeere except in the feast of Pentecost and that sixe dayes before Easter no sustenance should be receiued but salt bread and water Now if you doe thinke that these Traditions were left by the Apostles why doe you not obserue them and why doe you seeke to lay a burden vpon vs which you do refuse to beare your selfe Pap. You must vnderstand that from the first planting of the Church many thinges taught and deliuered by the Apostles haue béen altered and taken away partly by the Apostles themselues and partly a Then were their Successors ouer-sawcie vnlesse they had warrant in the Scripture so to doe by their Successors as the alteration of times and euents haue giuen occasion to alter or take them away for the good of the Church as the communitie of all things practised and allowed by the Apostles the office of b They were men as well as widow womē Rom. 12.8 Widdowes instituted by the Apostles the prohibition of eating of blood decréed by the Apostles the antiquitie did fast vppon the Euens of solemne Festiuall dayes and watch in the nights as the name Vigilia yet remaining doth testifie but when an abuse was perceiued to growe therby the watching was taken away the fasting being continued practised in the Church at this day August ad frat in Eremo Serm. 25. We might giue like instances of the Sundaies in Lent which were not fasted in ancient times with the Wednesdayes fast by you alleaged out of Epiphanius and many such like too long to repeat Out of which we gather with the Bée that the Apostles did ordaine many things in the Church which it is lawfull for themseleus c How prooue you their Successors might doe it and their Successors to alter or take away when time and occasion should require it for the good of the Church but if wée shall gather hereof that because the Church vpon graue deliberation hath taken away some d VVhat bee those things things deliuered by the Apostles that therefore Iohn Caluin or any other priuate man may at his pleasure reiect other some we shal sucke poyson with the Spider if I should argue with you that because you doe reiect the Wednesdayes fast which was e VVe heare you say so a Tradition of the Apostles that therefore wee may reiect the obseruation of the Sunday it would séeme but a weake argument although you could be content to confesse that the obseruation of Sunday is grounded onely vppon the Tradition of the Church which to doe were lesse shame
commemorat fluuius igneus currebat ante eum transibunt c. They which haue done things worthie temporall paines of whom the Apostle saith If any mans worke burne he shall suffer losse but he shall be saued yet so as it were by fire shall passe through the riuer of fire which the words of the Prophet mention and a riuer of fire ranne before him You see here that Pauls place is alleaged for nothing els but to shew that some doe things worthie of temporall paines which we denie not nay we will graunt further that our workes shall abide a fierie triall yet the fire that trieth euery mans worke is not a fire by nature but by metaphore and if it be metaphoricall any where it must be so chiefly there where it is slaked with sic tamen yet so quailed with quasi as it were Now where this Austine saith further that these temporallists shall passe through that fierie streame which the Prophet speaketh of Dan. 7.10 though I might answere that they may so passe Absque vlla violatione without any hurt as hath bin seene before yet looke the place in Daniels Prophesie you shal soone find that the Prophet speakes there not of a fiery flood that was indeed really but which he saw in a vision he saw in the same vision the ancient of dayes that is God himselfe sit vpon a fiery throne in white apparel the haire of his head like pure wooll yet I trow no man will therfore imagine that God sits in purgatorie or weares apparell or hath either head or haire moreouer the horned beast that spake presumptuously against God and his Saints was slaine and his body was throwne into this fire I hope purgatorie fire was neuer made for bodies but for soules neither yet for blaspheming tyrants but for pidling offences of small moment There is another place out of Ezechiel which this pretended Austine dragges in whether the Prophet will or no Cap. 24. to countenance purgatorie for whereas the holy Ghost euidently compareth the citie of Ierusalem to an emptie pot or kettle set vpon the hot coles of Gods wrath to the intent that her filthinesse might be consumed he will needes outface vs that the scripture compareth a sinfull soule to this pot saying Sermo diuinus quodam in loco ellae animam peccatricem comparat and then cries out amaine Illic sermones otiosi cogitationes iniquae illic multitudo leuum peccatum illic stannum vel plumbū diuersorum subrepentina delictorum consumentur c. There idle speeches and wicked thoughts there the multitude of light sinnes there the tinne or lead of diuers secret sinnes shall be consumed Yet the great Gregorie tels vs that they cannot be saued by fire which build ferrum Dial. lib. 4. cap. 39. aes plumbum iron brasse lead vpon the foundation for by these he vnderstandeth peccata maiora duriora insolubilia greater harder or pardonable sinnes and to say the trueth such were the sinnes of Ierusalem which Ezechiel speakes of and therefore no meat for purgatorie to feede on The Dialogue Sectio XII SAint Ambrose This ancient father expounding the same place of S. Paul saith thus he shall be saued because the a He consisteth of body and soule but both I trow belong not to purgatory substance whereon he consisteth shall not perish as his euill doctrine shall because an accident is the cause and therefore the Apostle sayd yet as it were by fire because this saluation is not without punishment he said not he shall be saued by fire as if by b I trow he may escape purgatory by merits his merite he should remaine vnburned being examined by fire but when he saith yet as it were by fire he sheweth that hée shall be saued and yet receiue c In this world not in Purgatory punishment that being purged by fire he may be saued and not punished with the damned in eternall fire The Answere AMbrose conuerted S. Austine and therefore I trow they expound S. Paul both alike and indeed Ambrose here is cleere against Purgatory and must be vnderstood for ought I yet see of the fierie tryall and afflictions of this life 1. Pet. 1.7 for tell me what substance doth a false teacher consist of doth he not consist as other men doe of body and soule why then his substance whereof he consisteth is neither examined nor punished in purgatory fire which toucheth not the body but by that same animi dolor griefe of mind which Austine speakes of moreouer Ambrose here excludes merite saying that his merite cannot so saue him from burning but he must needs receyue punishment that he may be saued which cannot be vnderstood of the paynes of Purgatory for they may be redeemed by the merits of this life if you will beleeue counterfet Austine De Sanctis serm 41. Hmil 16. totis viribus vnusquisque laboret vt minuta peccata possit ita bonis operibus redimire vt de ipsis nihil videatur remanere quod ille ignis possit absumere and againe Illic multitudo lenium peccatorum consumētur quae hic ab anima separari per eleemosynas lachrymas compendiosa transactione potuissent Let euerie man labour with all his might that hee may redeeme his small sinnes with good workes that there may seeme nothing to remaine of them which that fire may consume There the multitude of light sinnes shall bee consumed which might easily haue bin separated from the soule by almes and tears Againe Ambrose applieth Pauls words to false teachers whose euill doctrine shall perish as hee saith and indeede Paul speakes of the Doctors of Corinth and of their faults in teaching and therefore if there be a purgatory to be found here it must be a purgatory for preachers and teachers of euill doctrine Bellarm. de purg lib. 1. cap 4. Mat. 5.19 not for euery one that commits a smal pidling offence and hath payd all but a few farthings now where it is said that there is the same reason of other mens sinnes I doubt they teach euil doctrine that say so and so make them selues thrall to purgatory for he that breaketh the least commandement which Papists count but a veniall slip and teacheth men so shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen saith our Sauiour teaching vs that the sinne of a teacher and of another ordinary man euen in small things differ much and may not be ballanced with the same weights for to breake and teach is a greater offence by much then to breake onely and so the one may goe to heauen without trouble when the other must sticke in the bryers and stand vpon his purgation So then this place of Ambrose you see is like a Carpentars toole called a twibill which when a man hewes with the one ende of it is ready to pecke out his eyes with the other and this did Bellarmine see wel inough for he cuts
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
hee beleeued God and it was counted to him for righteousnesse Againe this promise may bee vnderstood of temporall rewards which the Lord bestoweth oftentimes vpon such as neither be nor euer shall be iustified beside a cup of cold water Cap. 20 23. can merite no great matter vnlesse it bee such water as wee read of in the Epistle to the Hebrewes Math. 10 42. Mar. 9 41. adde to this that our Sauiour speakes of doing good to his Disciples whom hee sent to preach in the Cities of Israel for so Marke expoundeth it To be short here is a reward spoken of which we denie not for he that freely promised it is true of his word and promise that hee made to a thousand generations Psal 105 8. yet here is nothing sayd of Iustification I hope no man lookes to bee iustified by giuing a cup of cold water But now I trow hee comes to the point grace goeth before saith he and draweth vs vnto good works our will consenteth and worketh together with the grace of God and so God crowneth his owne gifts in vs as Saint Austine saith Indeed Saint Austine saith Coronat dona sua non merita tua He crowneth his owne gifts not thy merites speaking of the Apostle Saint Paul And againe Coronat in nobis Deus dona misericordiae suae God crowneth in vs the gifts of his owne mercie But what 's this to iustification by workes As for that which he addeth in the same tractate that we receiue grace for grace he tels you that the first of these graces is faith Accepimus de plenitudine eius primò gratiam rursum accepimus gratiaÌ„ pro gratia quam gratiam primò accepimus fidem in fide ambulantes in gratia ambulamus We haue receiued of his fulnesse first grace againe we haue receiued grace for grace what grace haue we first receiued faith walking in faith we walke in grace Againe Si consequutus es istam gratiam fidei eris iustus ex fide iustus enim ex fide viuit If thou hast obtained this grace of faith thou shalt bee iust by faith for the iust shall liue by faith Moreouer thus he expounds gratiaÌ„ pro gratia Ipsa fides gratia est saith he Et vita aeterna gratia est pro gratia Faith it selfe is grace and eternall life is grace for grace And againe De plenitudine eius omnes accepimus de plenitudine misericordiae eius de plenit adine bonitatis eius accepimus quid remissionem peccatoram vt iustificaromus ex fide in super quid gratiam pro gratia idest prohac gratia in qua ex fide viuimus recepturi samas aliam Of his fulnesse haue we all receiued of the fulnesse of his mercie of the fulnesse of his goodnesse haue we receiued What forgiuenesse of sinnes that we may be iustified by faith and what more grace for grace that is to say for this grace in which we liue by faith we shall receiue another Now then where our Papist talkes of grace going before let him tell vs plainely without clowding whether it be faith or not if it bee faith then hee pleads our cause and lets his owne fall if it bee not faith then let him intreat Saint Austine to hold his peace Moreouer see I pray you how handsomely this mans dreames agree with the word of God For whereas Saint Paul saith Rom 3 24 11.6 Eph. 2 8 9 we are iustified freely by grace and not of works hee is not ashamed to talke of grace going before which draweth vs at length to worke together with the grace of God as if the grace of God in Christ Iesu were not able to iustifie vs without the assistance of our workes or as if the Apostle did not euidently exclude workes when hee sayth in one place wee are freely iustified and in another if by grace not of workes else were grace no grace Besides this the same Apostle saith that if Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but no man Rom. 4 2. Rom. 4 2. 3 27 Eph. 2.9 Rom. 4 5. c. Rom. 4 4. Rom. 11.35 De Rom. pont lib. 3. cap. 23 Aurithes 2 cont Chytraeum no not Abraham himselfe hath any thing wherein to reioyce with God Ergo no man liuing is iustified or euer was or shal be iustified by workes No no faith is accounted for righteousnesse to him that worketh not saith Saint Paul he that worketh hath his wages neither by faith nor by fauour but by debt and who is he that hath giuen or can giue to God first and he shall be recompensed A man would thinke such euident testimonies as these be should bee past the reach of all wrangling Yet Bellarmine tels vs that Abrahams works which Paul speakes of proceeded from nature without either faith or grace Cap. 12.3 cap. 15 6. Cap. 11.8 Act. 7.2 c. as if Paul had spoken of Socrates or Aristides not of Abraham the Father of the faithfull yet I am sure he had the righteousnes of faith before he was called Abraham as appeareth in Genesis and the Author to the Hebrewes testifieth that hee had faith before hee went out of Chalde to dwell in Charran Now I beseech you must wee needs thinke that Paul speakes of such workes as Abram wrought in Mesopotamia when hee and his Father Terah serued strange Gods Iosh 24. not of such as Abraham wrought afterward when hee was called away from his Fathers house kinred and countrey Moreouer the same Iesuite tels vs that there is a second kinde of workes which proceed from faith and Gods grace and those works doe but disponere ad reconciliationem cum Deo remissionem peccatorum Dispose vs to reconciliation with God and remission of sinnes But what doth faith and Gods grace in the meane time doe they still bring forth good workes and good workes a disposition and so neuer actually reconcile vs Marrie looke the Tridentine councell for your answere Ideò gratis iustificatur homo quia nec fides nec opera iquâ— iustificationem praecedunt ipsam merentur nimirum ex iustitia quasi eiusmodi operibus esset debita iustificatio A man is therefore freely iustified because neither faith nor workes which goe before iustification doe deserue it to wit of right as if iustification were due to such workes Well sayd hold you to that and goe no further for wee teach not that faith properly iustifieth but layeth hold vpon Christ that iustifieth the vngodly makes them blessed by imputation of his righteousnesse without works as Paul teacheth out of Dauid Rom. 4 5 6. but here followeth a tamen that marres all Fatemur tamen haec opera quatenus ex fide adiutorio diuino proficiscuntur diuina esse opera suo modo mereri hoc est impeâ—rare peccatorum remissionem Yet we confesse that these workes as they proceed from faith and the help of
denie that which our Sauiour Christ hath affirmed Nemo venit ad me nisi pater meus traxerit eum No man commeth vnto me vnlesse my Father shall drawe him yet we doe say with Saint Austine that this a yet Austine elsewhere makes it to be more than perswading looke the answere drowsing is as the pleasant pasture draweth the shéepe and not a violent drawing as a Beare drawne to the stake man can doe no good workes except he be drawne vnlesse he be inspired from aboue but being b No maruell for then we are regenerate and iustified alreadie yet haue wee then no freedome to refuse so drawne and inspired it is then in the election of mans frée-will either to be obedient therevnto or else to refuse the same and to quench the spirite as Saint Paul calleth it Diabolus dat consilium saith S. Austine sed Deo auxiliante nostrum est eligere vel repudiare quod suggerit Homil. 12. If there be no power in man to repent or to doe good workes c Because God by that means worketh repentance in vs. 2. Tim. 2 25. how is it that the Scriptures doe so often exhort vs to repentance newnesse of life and good workes and threaten gréeuous punishments to those that will not doe that which as you say they d The fault is in themselues not in God This is the verie obiection of the Pelagians answered by Saint Austine lib. de grat lib. arbitr cap. 16. cannot do For your full satisfaction herein read Saint Austine sermone 7. de verbis Apostoli Irenaeus libro 4. cap. 72. Saint Hilarie vpon 118. Psal Epiphanius Tom. 1. Haeres 16. The Answere ABsolute freewill either to good or euill is hardly to be found vpon the earth yet our papist heere makes as though he had found it and might hold it by Saint Austine though Saint Iames and Saint Paul say no howbeit mans freewill may begge his bread well inough if it haue no better friends then Saint Austine for where that good father in his Tractats vpon Iohn Tract 26. saith that the father draweth vs vnto Christ as a greene bough draweth a sheepe you must vnderstād that this green bough resembleth our faith as our Sauiour expoundeth it Ioh. 6.64 c. Ad simplician lib. 1. quaest 2. and Saint Austine else where is bold to say Quis habet in potestate sua vt sua mens tali viso tangatur quid voluntas moueatur ad fidem Who hath it in his owne power that his mind might be touched with such a sight whereby his will may be moued vnto faith Againe you must presuppose that the sheepe is hungry and is not afraid of him that holdeth offereth that bough otherwise he may hold it till his armes ake Matth 5.6 1. Iohn 4.18 Ephes 3.12 and euen so it fareth with the sheepe of Christ for they are first brought to hunger and thirst after righteousnesse and to haue the loue of God which casteth out feare before they will regard the pleasant pasture that is offered vnto them and therfore the same father else where saith that the Lord draweth men De correct gratia ad Valantin cap. 14. Ibid. cap. 2. Suis voluntatibus sed quas ipse operatus est By their wils but yet such as himselfe hath wrought in them And againe Ideo volunt quia Deus operatur vt sic velint Therefore they will because God worketh that they will say so Besides this the sheepe is naturally drawen to feede vpon a greene bough whē she is hungry but our hunger after righteousnes is not naturall but Gods extraordinary and supernaturall blessing Matth. 5.6 which may not be confounded with nature vnlesse we will shake hands with Pelagius the hereticke and yet if you consider of that generall flying power to choose or refuse good or euill which the papists call grace for feare of Pelagianisme you shall hardly discerne it from nature and therefore well saith Saint Austine against Pelagius and Celestius and the papists their successors Lib. 1. cap. 10. Non satis est confiteri qualemcunque gratiam sed illam qua per sua deamur qua trahamur qua detur ipsum bonum It is not inough to confesse any kind of grace but that by which wee are perswaded by which we are drawne and by which the good it selfe is giuen Touching the place in Austines Homilies I answere in a word that eligere and repudiare consililum diaboli is nostrum the one by nature Ephes cap. 2.23 the other by grace by nature we are the children of wrath and walke after the counsell of the deuill but by grace wee haue some freedome from that captiuitie yet would I wish you to haue a more particular regard of this allegation man saith your papist can doe no good worke except he be drawen that 's true and inspired from aboue that 's true to and what then marry then after this drawing and inspiring it is in the election of mans free will either to obey or refuse and how is this prooued marry you shall heare it proued out of Austines Homilies Diabolus dat consilium Homil. 12. sed Deo auxiliante nostrum ect eligere vel repudiare quod suggerit The deuill giueth vs counsaile but it is in our power the Lord assisting vs to chuse or refuse that which he suggesteth Is not this a worthy proofe the question being of Gods worke in vs Cap. 3. he answereth that the deuill doth counsell vs and we by the freedome of our wils may either eligere or repudiare quod suggerit what dare you accuse Saint Austine of so hainous a crime they be Austines very words But by your leaue you must prooue that before it will be beleeued I am sure Saint Austine would not say that we may choose that which the deuill entiseth vs vnto by the helpe of God indeed the regenerate man may repudiare consilium diaboli by the helpe of God but I am sure God will not helpe him to yeeld to his suggestions The child of God that 's borne againe hath freewill in some measure but to good not to euill and so haue the wicked but to euill and not to good and both their wils are therefore free because neither the one is constrained to that which is good nor the other to that which is euill but farre was it from Saint Austines thought that God should affoord any helpe to choose the councels and suggestions of the deuill As for quenching the spirit 1. Thes 5.19 which Saint Paul somewhere speakes of I answere that the Greeke word signifieth keeping vnder or shaking as wel as extinguishing so the word quenching is sometime taken in our English tongue secondly the same Apostle saith else where Eph. 4.30 greeue not the spirit which may well be interpreted slake not or quench not or keepe not downe the power of the spirit yet it
followeth presently by whom ye are sealed to the day of redemption But let it signifie vtter extinguishing and putting out in this place to the Thessalonians yet me thinkes he should know what Beza answereth in his Annotations Annot. in Thes epist 1.5.19 where this obiection is extinguished thus he obiecteth Si in electis nunque extinguitur frustrà hoc praecipitur If it be neuer quenched in the elect this precept is giuen in vaine Then he answereth Imo verò ideo non extinguitur in electis quoniam eum fouent vt autem foueant istis exhortationibus adducuntur Yea rather therefore it is not extinguished in the elect because they cherish it and that they doe cherish they are prouoked by these exhortations And hereof it commeth that Saint Paul addeth immediately in the very next verse despise not prophecying that is Vers 20. giue heede to Gods holy word preached and opened vnto you whereby this fire of the spirit was first kindled and must still be kept burning in your hearts moreouer it may be considered that the Prophet Dauid Psal 51.10 11 12. euen in the same verse where he calleth vpon God to create in him a new heart addeth further and renue a right spirit with in me where he saith cast me not away from thy presence then he saith also take not thy holy spirit from me he had not so soone sayd restore to me the ioy of thy saluation but he sheweth againe that all was not lost saying stablish me with thy free spirit And so we find the creating he speaketh of to be a renuing the not casting of him away to be the not taking of Gods holy spirit from him and lastly restoring to be establishing One dusty reason yet remaineth which our papist shakes out of the bottome of his bag in these words if there be no power in man to repent or to doe good workes why doth the Scripture exhort vs to repentance newes of life and good workes and threaten to punish vs for not doing that we cannot doe 2. Tim 2.25 doe you aske why marry Paul tels you why saying instruct them that be contrary minded proouing if God at any time will giue them Repentance that so they may come to amendment out of the snare of the deuill where that we learne cleerely that God by the meanes of the Scripture draweth vs to repentance and amendment of life Repentance and remission of sins was giuen freely to Israel Act. 5.31 Act 11.18 likewise God graunted repentance to the Gentiles if we at this day be neither Iewes nor Gentiles or if God worke not in these dayes as he did in those then may we brag of our freedome and manumission if not then are they ouer-sawcie that honour themselues with the spoyles of God And touching Gods threatnings for not doing that we haue no abilitie to performe who but a blind papist can or will therefore charge God with iniustice considering that he gaue vs abilitie in the loines of Adam though now by his fall Iohn 15.5 and ours in him we haue lost it Our Sauiour when he saith without me yee can doe nothing doth he therefore leaue off exhorting conuincing and threatning or doth S. Paul hauing once testified that it is not in him that willeth Rom 9.16 nor in him that runneth but in God that sheweth mercy neuer after exhort men to will and to run aright nor threaten them if they happen to will and to runne amisse when Christ saith Mark 1.15 repent and beleeue the Gospel must we needs conclude against the plaine euidence of Gods word that repentance and faith Phil 1.29 hebr 12 2 Ad simplicianum lib. 1. quest 2. are not the gifts of God but the home-spunne fruit of our owne wils wherefore I will conclude this point with Saint Austine whom our Papist here seemeth to follow as his speciall guide Quis potest rectè viuere ac iustè operari nisi iustificatus ex fide quis potest crederenisi aliqua vocatione hoc est aliqua rerum testificatione tangatur Quis habet inpotestate sua vt sua meus tali visu tangatur quo voluntas moueatur adfidem Who can beleeue except he be touched with some calling that is to say some testification of the things who hath it in owne power that his mind should be touched with such a sight Despir liter Cap. 34. whereby it may be moued to faith Againe Cur hnic ita suadeatur vt persuadeatur illi autem non ita duo sola occurrunt quae mihi placeat respondere ô altitudo diuitiarum Rom 11.33 Rom 9.14 nunquid iniquitas est apud deum cui ista responsio displicet quaerat doctiores sed caueat presumptores Why this man is so instructed that he is perswaded but another is not so I haue found two onely answeres that doe please me O the depth of the riches and is there iniustice with God he that is not pleased with this answere let him seeke him learneder instructers but withall let him take heede he find them not presumptuous Now let your Papist tell Saint Austine that the one was persuaded the other not because it is in mans freewill either to obey or refuse for so he may prooue a presumptuous foote like his fellowes but better learned then Saint Austine will he neuer be Yet for all this we must read Saint Austine for our full satisfaction as if Saint Austine were a patrone of such licentiousnesse or as if a man liuing or dead by his owne authoritie could fully satisfie any Christian conscience yet S. Paul in that place which Austine expounds Ephe 3.13 writes to regenerate men that had their wils freed by the mercy of God were to go on by the same mercy to a further perfection Austine saith Quod peto à vobis rogo det vobis De verbis Apost serm 7. That which I require of you I desire for you And againe Hoc à Deo petit quod ab hominibus exigit This he desireth of God which he requireth of men And againe Det vobis inquit non enim habetis nisi det vobis Let him giue you saith he for you haue it not vnlesse he giue it you Yea but what say you to Irenaeus Hilarie and Epiphanius doe not they satisfie you No nor any man else that is not a Pelagian hereticke Irenaeus saith plainely Lib. 4. cap. 72. Omnes eiusdem sunt naturae potentes retinere operari bonum potentes rursum amittere id non facere All men are of the same nature and able to reteine and to worke that which is good and able againe to loose it and not to doe it Againe Liberae sententiae ab initio est homo est liberae sententiae est Deus cuius ad similitudinem factus est Man had freewill from the beginning and God hath freewill according to whose similitude he was made To