satisfaction for their sinnes M. The satisfaction which they maintained was an ecclesiasticall and publike mulct or penalty imposed vpon notorious offenders thereby to testifie their repentance and to satisfie the Church whom they had offended Perkins 1. V. 577 c 2 vol. 165. 2 D. 166. The efficient causâ— of our iustification is God alone It is God onely that forgiueth our sinnes Esa 43.25 Mar. 2.7 Ro. 8.33 They teach that the Pope can forgiue sinnes and we know that he giues pardons not only for the time past but also for the time to come yea they teach that priests haue right to remit sinnes and they alleadge these places to proue it Math. 16.19 Ioh. 20.23 Now we are to note this that as none can forgiue a debt but the party to whom the debt is due so none can forgiue sinnes but God onely against whom the sinne is committed Ps 51.4 The power of binding and loosing committed to the Apostles Ministers of the Word is by declaring the will and pleasure of GOD out of his Word both to pronounce forgiuenes of sinnes to all that are truely penitent and the retayning of them to the impenitent The Pope and his Clergie are neuer able to proue themselues to bee the true Ministers of Christ and they cannot so much as challenge this latter authoritie and power to themselues much lesse the former which is proper to God onely The motiue or impulsiue cause which moued God to iustifie vs was not any thing in vs but onely the grace of God that is the free good will and pleasure of God Rom. 3.24 Eph. 2.8 Tit. 3.5 7. They teach that wee are not iustified by grace onely but by workes also that is by the merit of our works And to this end they haue of late yeeres deuised a first second Iustification The first is when a sinner of an euill man is made a good man and this they say commeth onely of Gods mercy by the merit of Christ The second is when one of a good or iust man is made better and more iust and this proceedeth from workes But we are to know that there are not two kinds of iustification a first and second but one and the same iustification considered in different respects In respect of Gods actuall acceptation of a mans person iustification is absolute but in respect of the actuall application and manifestation of Gods acceptation vnto a mans conscience iustification is by parts and degrees M. Scudder on the Lords Prayer pag. 303. to 309. And further we are to note that the Papists second iustification is no other then sanctification which is an effect fruit of iustification the which is imperfect not able to iustifie vs before God The materiall cause of our iustification is the actiue and passiue righteousnesse and obedience of Iesus Christ his inherent holinesse his fulfilling of the Law his death sacrifice and full satisfaction The formall cause or the forme of iustification is the righteousnesse of Christ imputed of God vnto vs Rom. 5.19 Rom. 4 5 6 7 8. 1. Cor. 1.30 2. Cor. 5.19 21. Phil. 3.9 The Papists deride this doctrine that Men are iustified by the imputation of the righteousnesse of Christ which righteousnesse is not in vs but in Christ The Rhemists call it a new no-iustice a phantasticall apprehension of that which is not Rhem. on Ro. 3. Sect 7. They hold them accursed that so affirme and teach And they teach that the onely formall cause of our iustificaâ—ion is the iustice of God whereby wee are not reputed and â—ccounted iust but are made iust indeed and this iustice is â—hat which euery man hath within himselfe and is inherent â—n him Concil Trid. Sess 6. can 10 11. Rhem. on Phil. cha 3. Sect. 3. â—he instrumentall cause of iustification on our part is a true â—nd liuely faith whereby wee receiue and apply vnto our selues the mercy of God Christ Iesus and all his benefits resting vpon him alone for saluation They teach that faith doth not iustifie as an instrument in apprehending the righteousnesse of Christ but as a proper and true cause it actually iustifieth by the dignity worthinesse and meritorious worke thereof Bellar. l. 1. de iustificat cap. 17. They teach also that faith is not the onely cause of our iustification but that there are other also as hope charity almes-deeds and other vertues yea they say that workes are more principall then faith in the matter of iustification and pronounce him accursed that shall say a man is iustified onely by faith Rhem. on Rom. 8. Sect. 6. and on Iâ—m 2. Sect. 7. Bellar. l. 1 de iustif c. 13. Concil Trid. Sess 6 Can. 9. These and other such like things they teach contrary to the doctrine of iustification which is a maine ground of Religion And if there were no more points of difference betweene vs these were sufficient to keepe vs from vniting of our Religions for heereby the Church of Rome doth raze the very foundation C. You said before that we are iustified freely I would know how this can be if we be iustified by the righteousnes and for the merit of Christ M. Because the Decree of God the Father for our Redemption is free and we pay nothing againe to God of our owne And therefore by the word freely our merits are excluded but not Christs By which it appeareth that in respect of our selues we are iustified freely of Gods meere mercy and grace without any respect of our owne righteousneâ— or worthinesse but yet through Christ and for his righteouâ—nesse and obedience imputed to vs both which are signifieâ— by the Apostle Rom. 3.23 24. C. Shew me I pray you what is meant by Merit what the dectâ—â— of the Papists is concerning merit and whether that our workes be mâ—â—â—orious or no. M. By Merit wee vnderstand any thing or any workeâ— whereby Gods fauour and life euerlasting is procured 〈◊〉 that for the dignitie and excellency of the worke or thiâ— done Now the true merit whereby wee looke to attaine the fauour of God and life euerlasting is to be found in the person of Christ alone in whom God is well pleased The Papists make two kindes of merit the merit of the person and the merit of the worke The merit of the person is as they say a dignitie in the person whereby it is worthy of life euerlasting The merit of the worke is a dignitie or excellency in the worke whereby it is made fit and inabled to deserue life euerlasting for the doer of the worke See Rhem. on Rom. 8. Sect. 5. We now doe renounce our owne personall merits and all merit of our owne workes and rely onely vpon the merits of Christ and we hold that no workes of ours can merit That no man by any workes of his can merit may bee proued by the properties and conditions that must bee in a worke meritorious and they are fiue First the worke must be absolutely perfect
but all our workes are vnperfect as well in parts as in degrees of accomplishment In parts because we omit many things which the Law prescribeth and doe many euill things which the Law prohibiteth In degrees because the works of the Saints are vncleane Esay 64.6 Phil. 3.8 Secondly a man must doe the worke of himselfe and by himselfe for if it be done by the helpe of another the merit doth not properly belong to the dooer But the good workes which we doe are not ours but are wrought by God in vs. Thirdly a man must doe the worke of his owne free will and pleasure not of due debt for when we doe that which we are bound to doe we doe no more but our duty But whatsoeuer we doe we doe it as poore debters nay wee are worse then poore debters we are miserable bankerupts wee haue nothing we haue lesse then nothing to pay Luke 17.10 Fourthly the worke must be done to the benefit and profit of him from whom we looke to be repayed But no man by any worke of his can bring any profit vnto God Iob 22.2.35.7 Psal 16.2.50.12 We may benefit men but we cannot benefit our Maker from whom we haue receiued life and limb soule and body and all that we haue wee can giue him nothing and therefore can deserue nothing from him Rom. 11.35 36. Lastly the worke and the reward must be in proportion equall for if the reward be more then the worke it is not then a reward of desert but a gift of good-will But there is no proportion betweene our workes which are altogether vnperfect and the excellency of those great blessings and benefits which the Father giueth vs freely in his Sonne Rom. 8.18 And therefore in this and the former respects there can be no merit in any meere man wherefore it is no lesse absurd to say that we merit saluation at Gods hands by good works then if one should say Thou hast giuen mee an hundred pounds therefore thou oughtest to giue me a thousand C. Was not this doctrine of merit taught in the times of ancient Fathers M. Merit being taken in his proper sense for due iust desert was neuer allowed of the sound Professors for a thousand yeeres after Christ Perkins 1. Vol. 574 575. second Vol. 535 536. Such therefore as will be iustified and saued by their owne workes and challenge eternall life by their merits doe shew themselues to be most proud and vnthankefull persons and deserue most iustly to be condemned eternally C. The Papists at their end doe renounce their owne merits and professe that they looke to be saued onely by the merits of Christ M. If there were nothing else but this it were enough to proue their doctrine of merit to be a false doctrine for if it were a truth then a man is not onely in his life time to professe it and maintaine it but also in his death yea rather to dye for it then to deny it But seeing they in their life professe it and maintaine it but at their death renounce it it is a manifest argument that euen they themselues doe know that it is not a true but a falâ—e doctrine C. If they know that it is not a truth what makes them then in their life-time so stiffely to maintaine it M. It serues greatly to maintaine and vphold the Popes kingdome for they teach that the ouer-plus of Christs merits and of the merits of Saints and Martyrs is the treasure of the Church which being gathered together and put into a store-chest is in the Popes custodie and he alone hath the plenary opening and shutting of this Chest and the ordering and disposing of these merits by vertue whereof hee giues out Indulgences and Pardons when and to whom hee will So that such as haue not merits enow of their own may haue them from thence And so hereby hee maintaines and vpholds his kingdome for hereby comes in infinite wealth and reuenewes Perkins 3. vol. 1. part pag. 165 2. D. 2. vol. 590. 2. a. In these and many other particular points the Papists teach contrary to the Articles of the Creed and therefore are no true Catholikes neither doe they belong to the Catholike Church as is thus proued Whosoeuer haue not the Catholike faith doe not belong to the Catholike Church but the Papists haue not the Catholike faith therefore they doe not belong to the Catholike Church That they haue not the Catholike faith is plaine by that aforegoing DIALOGVE 6. C. Doe they teach any thing contrary to the doctrine of the Sacraments M. Yes many things Christ ordained but onely two Sacraments The Church of Rome hath added to them fiue more namely Confirmation Penance Matrimonie Orders and extâ—eme Vnction C. Are not these Sacraments indeed M. No surely for there are foure things necessarily required to make a Sacrament First the authoritie of Christ commanding it Secondly the element or outward signe as the matter of it Thirdly the word of institution as the forme Fourthly the end and vse to be a seale of our faith for remission of sinnes These foure things are not to be found in their fiue latter Sacraments and therefore they are no Sacraments indeed Master Attersoll on the Sacraments pag. 119. to 150. Synopsis Papis Controu 14 15 16. C. May not the Church then institute and ordaine Sacraments M. None may ordaine a Sacrament but onely the Lord. As none may put a signe and seale to a mans last Will and Testament but onely the maker of the Testament so none may ordaine Sacraments which are signes and seales of the new Testament and couenant of grace but onely the Lord which made the couenant And therefore the Church of Rome in doing the contrary proues her selfe not to bee the true Church of Christ but rather the Church of Antichrist They doe also in many other things teach contrary to the doctrine of the Sacraments As First that the Sacraments doe giue grace and namely remission of sinnes ex opere operato by the worke wrought Rhem. Acts 22. Sect. 1. Secondly that not onely faith doth iustifie but the Sacraments also Rhem. Rom. 6. Sect. 5. Whereas Sacraments are signes and seales of iustification Rom. 4.11 Thirdly that Infants dying without Baptisme cannot bee saued Rhem. Ioh. 3. Sect. 2. They haue also added many idle ceremonies to Baptisme as Creame Tapers Salt c. with an opinion of saluation and worship annexed vnto them yea in times past they baptized Bels but now they begin to be ashamed of it and say that they were but onely hallowed and consecrated to holy vses Bellar. l. 4. de Pont. Rom. c. 12. Synopsis Papismi Controu 12. Quest 5. Concerning the Lords Supper they haue likewise most grossely abused it in many things First they take away the Cup from the Laity whereas the Church of Rome for aboue a thousand yeeres after Christ vsed both signes in the Communion The Communion vnder one kind was decreed defined and
determined as a publike Law in the Councell of Constance about the yeere 1114. Perk. 2. Vol. 554.2 b. Secondly they reserue the Bread in boxes pixes other vessels of the Church for dayes weekes and moneths They shew it to the people the Priest lifting it ouer his head anâ— going with it in procession All this is contrary to the Sacrament for it is no Sacrament vnlesse there be a giuing receiuing eating and drinking M. Attersoll on the Sacraments 386 387. The reseruation of the Sacrament was not allowed of but rather found fault withall by the Fathers Perk. 2. vol. 557. Thirdly they adore fall downe and honour the Sacrament with diuine worship calling it their Lord and God A thing neuer heard of among the heathen Idolaters namely to worship a piece of bread or rather a thin Wafer The adoration in the Sacrament belongeth vnto Christ sitting in heauen and is an inward worship of the heart or lifting vp of the minde being stirred vp with the outward signes Pope Honorius the third in the yeere 1220. was the first that euer instituted the adoration of the Sacrament And after him Vrban the fourth ordained a feast in honour of the body of Christ Perk. 2. Vol. 564. Attersoll on the Sacraments 388 389. Fourthly they turne the Sacrament into a sacrifice for the quick the dead abolishing the fruit remembrance of the death of Christ disannulling his Priesthood giuing him to his Father whereas the Father hath giuen him to vs c. ibid. page 390. Fiftly they maintaine Transubstantiation These are their very words If any man shall say that there remaineth the substance of Bread and Wine in the Sacrament after the words of consecration or shal deny that the whole substance of Bread and Wine is changed and conuerted into the bodie and bloud of Christ the formes and shewes onely of Bread and Wine remaining which singular and miraculous conuersion the Church calleth Transubstantiation let him be accursed Con. Trid. Sess 13. Can. 2. This their doctrine of Transubstantiation is a very fable to mock fooles withall and it ouerturneth both the nature and vse of the Sacrament Attersoll on the Sacraments page 45. 46. page 365. to 369. If there were a miraculous conuersion as they say there is of the Bread and Wine it would appeare to the outward senses For al true miracles are wrought openly cleerely euidently to mens senses Ioh. 6.26 But the Bread and Wine by the iudgement of all the senses remaineth and appeareth to be the same in substance which it was before of the same quality quantitie colour taste handling smelling vertue and nourishment there is not any one sense or all the senses together that can iudge otherwise of it then it did before If a man should bee called in when the Bread and Wine is set on the Table and bidden to consider well what he there seeth smelleth tasteth and then is willed to goe forth and to come in againe after the Consecration is ended by the Priest and to do the like and then is asked what he thinketh of it he no doubt will answere vnlesse feare of persecution make him to conceale the truth I see feele smell and taste the same wafer-cake and wine that I did before I can perceiue no naturall and substantiall change therein And therefore it followeth that there is no miracle wrought and consequently no transubstantiation at all The difference that is is in the end vse onely Before consecration it was common bread and wine ordained for the nourishing of our bodies After consecration it becommeth holy Bread and Wine sanctified by the Lord not so much to feede the body as the soule C. Did not the ancient Fathers hold this doctrine of Transubstantiation M. They knew nothing hereof for at least 800. yeeres after Christ Afterwards begun the disputations of Transubstantiation but not approued as an Article of faith The Church for a whole thousand yeeres taught no other then spirituall receiuing of Christ In the yeere 1215. Transubstantiation was decreed and determined in the Councell of Lateran vnder Pope Innocent the Third and made a maine matter of faith Perk. 2. vol. 558 559. C. What say you then of their Transubstantiated or consecrated host as it is called or the bread in the boxe carried in processiâ—n worshipped M. Surely it is nothing else but a wheaten or breaden god or rather an Idol nothing inferiour to Aarons Calfe or Ierohoams Calues or the Nehustan and piece of brasse that Ezechias brake in pieces nay as vile and detestable as an Idoll among the Heathen And for a conclusion of their doctrine of Transubstantiation I will heere set downe a wittie conceit which one shewed me not long since I haue kept the matter but changed the meeter to make it sound somewhat the sweeter The Priests doe make Christs body and bloud Hereof none must once doubt They eate they drinke they box him vp They beare him all about DIALOGVE 7. C. I am satisfied touching the first point namely that the Papists are not of sound faith but how doe you proue that they are not of good life seeing they doe so many good workes M. I proue it thus Where the Doctrine is corrupt the life cannot be good but their doctrine as you haue heard is most corrupt therefore their life cannot bee good A true faith is the ground of a good life and without which it is impossible to please God Heb. 11.6 yea whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14.23 A true faith they haue not and therefore their workes cannot be good and such as may please God That they haue not a true and sound faith hath bin shewed in many particulars and it further appeareth also in this that they do euen wilfully reiect the meanes whereby it is wrought namely the preaching hearing and reading the Word of God They haue not neither will they haue the Scriptures to be soundly preached read and heard in their owne tongue That they cannot abide to haue them in their owne language appeareth by this one example One Pauier a Towne-Clarke of London in the time of King Henry the Eighth hearing that the Scriptures should be put into English he spake to this effect and confirmed it with an oath viz. that if he knew that the Scriptures should bee put into English and that the King would haue them to be read in the Church rather then he would lâ—ue so long to see it he â—ould cut his owne throat But as Hall saith who heard him speake it he was not so good as his word for instead of cutting his throat he hanged himselfe C. What is the cause that they cannot abide to haue the Scriptures in their owne language M. S. John giues the reason For euery one that doth euill hateth the light neither coÌ„meth to it left his deeds should be reproued discouered Ioh. 3.20 If the Owle flieth abroad by day the birds by by discerne him
follow him fall vpon him and therfore he flies abroad in the night and then he is quiet If the Scriptures should be suffered to be expounded and read of all Nations in their owne language then that Owle of Rome the Pope I meane with all his fooleries and abominations would be discerned and discouered and then the world would hate him follow after him persecute him euen as the small birds doe the Owle and therefore they cannot abide the Scriptures in the vulgar tongue but loue darknes rather then light because their deedes are euill Iohn 3.19 C. What say you then to their good works as building of Churches giuing of Almes c M. These and such like workes required in the Law of God in themselues are good and to be practised of all but to them they are as the Fathers called the vertues of the Heathen but splendida peccata glittering drosse and beautifull deformities C. Doe they teach any thing contrarie to the morall Law and to the doctrine of good workes M. Yes they doe both teach and practise many things directly contrarie to Gods Commandements They reach for good workes such things as are not commanded but rather forbidden in the Law of God as namely to goe on Pilgrimage to vow single life to fast forty dayes and forty nights c. First concerning set Pilgrimages vnto certaine Images there was none of the Fathers did so much as dreame of thâ— for 600. yeeres after Christ at the least Perkins 2. Vol. p 141 542. Secondly the necessitie of the vowe of continencie was established first and annexed vnto Orders about 380. yeeres after Christ and that by Pope Siricius But it had no vniuersall admission vntill the time of Pope Hildebrand in the yeere 1070. Perkins 1. Vol. 583. to 587. 2. Volume 575 576. Acts and Monuments 1151. Thirdly their doctrine of single life was neuer commanded of God nor knowne in the Primitiue Church but hath sprung vp since and is indeede the very doctrine of Diuels 1. Tim. 4.13 So is also their forbidding of meates for religions sake They teach also that a man may fulfill the Lawe yea doe workes of Supererogation that is more then the Lawe doth require and that men of their abundance may allot to others such workes of Supererogation Rhem. on 1. Cor. 9. sect 6. 2. Cor. 8. sect 3. This doctrine of theirs makes the Law of God to be vnperfect and is directly contrary to the words of Christ Luke 17.10 And it was not knowne of the ancient Fathers They spake indeed sometimes of Supererogation but in a farre other sence then Papists doe There are no such workes to be found in the person of any meere man or Angell but onely in the person of Christ God and man Perk. 1. vol. 598. 599. 2. vol. 540. 541. DIALOGVE 8. C. Shew me I pray you in particular what things they teach contrary to the commandements M. I could plainely proue vnto you that they doe both teach and practise many things contrary to euery one of the Commandements but I will onely set downe the chiefest and such as most men know to be true The first Commandement concernes the inward worship of God the ground of which worship is the true knowledge of God and without which none can truely worship and serue him for such as our knowledge is such is our worship â— Chron. 28.9 Psal 9.10 Ier. 9.24 The Papists teach that â—gnorance is the mother of deuotion but the truth is it is â—he mother of superstition and idolatry Gal. 4.8 The Papists therefore being ignorant and without the true knowledge of God cannot truely worship him but must needs bee Idolaters worshipping they know not what The first Commandement requireth that wee haue the true Iehoua for our onely God They make Christs body to be God because they hold that it may be in many places at once which thing is proper only to God They make the Pope to be God that in plaine words Christopher Marcellus said to the Pope Thou art another God vpon earth and the Pope tooke it to himselfe Concil Later Sess 4. They giue the power to the Pope which is proper to God and so make him to be God As that he can make holy that which is vnholy pardon sinnes c. Perkins 1. vol. 400. 1. and they giue diuine worship to creatures and so make theÌ„ their Gods The second Commandement concerneth the outward worship of God or the forme manner of his worship This Commandement they haue cleane put out of the Decalogue and to fill vp the number they diuide the last into two The scope of this Commandement is that no Image is to be made of God nor any worship performed to him in an Image Deut. 4.15 16. But they teach it lawfull to make Images of the true God and to worship him in them and that there is a religious worship due to them Belarm 〈◊〉 imag sanct lib. 2. cap. 21. And in the second Nicen Councell it it was decreed that the Image of God should be worshipped with the same worship that is due vnto God Their practice is answerable to their doctrine for they worship the Images of God of Christ the Saints the woodden Crosse yea a piece of bread C. They say that they doe not worship the images but God Christ and the Saints in the image M. Suppose that this were true yet in so doing they commit grosse idolatry and the same that the people of Israeâ— did for which God plagued them greatly Exod. 32.5 28. 〈◊〉 thinke there is none so very a Calfe as to thinke that they did worship the Calfe it selfe The Calfe was but a representation of God and yet they sinned greatly in making it and worshipping God in it The Heathen in times past could say as much for themselues concerning their worshipping of Images as the Papists now doe and yet as they were Idolaters so are the Papists for as touching their superstition and idolatry bloud caÌ„not be more like to bloud or an egge to an egge then the one of them is to another The Heathen had for euery Nation and Prouince some peculiar god Among them the Elements had their seueral gods to rule ouer them The Heathen had a certain god assigned to their cattell The Heathen had peculiar gods for learning and learned men and for handi-crafts men And all these haue the Papists likewise The Heathen erected Altars ordained Priests to offer sacrifices fell downe before their idols c. So the Papists deck and adorne their images goe on Pilgrimage to them fall downe vpon their knees before them and make their prayers vnto them And what is all this but to worship the very images themselues the which is most grosse idolatry Musculus on Psa 16. ver 4. page 139. 140 Virels grounds pag. 87. to 92. Attersoll on Philemon pag. 63. 64. C. They say that there be degrees of religious worship the highest is latria and this is
Trent This concupiscence which the Apostle sometime calleth sinne the holy Synod declareth that the Catholike Church did neuer vnderstand to be called sinne because it is truely properly sinne in the regenerate but because it commeth of sinne and inclineth vnto sinne If any man thinke the contrarie let him be accursed Sess 5. cap. 1. de pecc orig Wherein they both decree against the Apostle himselfe Rom. 7.23 and also they gaine say themselues for if this concupiscence boile out of originall sinne as out of a fountaine and that is damnable it followeth that concupiscence or lust is also sinne before God and doth deserue condemnation They say that in the regenerate it is veniall But this is an vndoubted principle that all sinnes in themselues and their owne nature are mortall And concerning this veniall sinne it was not knowne among the Fathers for 700. yeeres after Christ And thus you see what grosse things they both teach and practise contrary to the Commandements of God whereby it plainely appeareth that Popery cannot bee of God for thus I reason Whatsoeuer religion doth teach things contrary to the Commandements of God is not of God but Poperie doth so and therefore it is not of GOD and so by good consequence Papists cannot be good Catholikes DIALOGVE 13. C. Hitherto you haue shewed that the Papists teach many things contrary to the Creede the Sacraments and the ten Commandements now tell me I pray you whether they teach any thing contrary to the Lords Prayer M. They doe likewise teach practise many things contrarie thereunto I will but onely name some of them The Lords Prayer teacheth vs to call vpon God only They teach and practise prayer to Saints In the first Petition we pray for the hallowing of Gods Name They giue vnto Saints departed that which is proper to God and so dishonour Gods Name In the second petition we pray for the erecting of Gods Kingdome of grace in our hearts and also for the meanes thereof namely the preaching hearing of Gods Word They hinder the comming of Gods Kingdome in reiecting the Word of God and in persecuting such as will preach heare and reade it Contrary to the third petition is their doctrine of free-will Contrary to the fifth petition is their doctrine of satisfaction for sin In the sixth petition we pray for strength to withstand Satan his temptations They teach people to driue away the Diuell with holy-water and such like childish toyes These and other such like things they teach and practise contrary to the Lords Prayâ—r DIALOGVE 14. C. If Popery be so contrary to the grounds of Religion then we may â—ot ioyne with the Papists in their profession M. It is true indeede we must therefore doe as the Lord â—â—de Ieremy Chap. 15.19 Let them returne to thee but reâ—urne not thou to them We may ioyne with them in respect â—f ciuill societie but not in respect of Religion and yet eâ—en then we are to take heed left we be corrupted by them â—r he that toucheth Pitch shall be defiled therewith Some thinke that our Religion and the religion of the present Church of Rome are all one for substance and that they may be vnited but they are grosely deceiued for an vnion of these two Religions can neuer be made more then the vnion of light and darknesse and that because the Church of Rome as hath at large bin shewed hath strooke at the very foundation C. If Poperie bee so contrary to the very grounds of Religion then what is the cause that so many yea of the more wise and learned sort do embrace and cleaue to it M. One speciall cause of it is that because men will not receiue the loue of the Trueth therefore God will send them strong delusion that they should beleeue a lie 2. Thes 2.10 11. A second cause is ignorance of the Scriptures and of the grounds of Religion for if men would well acquaint themselues herewith they should easily see the grossenesse of Poperie A third cause is that Popery is very agreeable and pleasing to mans corrupt nature As for example to be iustified by our good works to haue images to worship God in to liue in ignorance to haue pardons for our sinnes to serue God in outward ceremonies as in choice of meate difference of dayes c. these are things very agreeable pleasing to our corrupt nature and therefore one especiall cause why so many embrace Popery A fourth cause is the tyranny of the Church of Rome whose chiefe meanes to vphold her religion is fire sword for were it not for this many thousands in a few yeers would vtterly renounce Popery A fifth cause why so many especially of the Learned dâ— embrace it is pompe and profit that is ambition and couetousnesse This was that which made the Scribes and Pharises eueâ— against their owne knowledge to withstand Christ and 〈◊〉 Gospell And this makes many learned Papists ro do the like They know no doubt that in some things they erre as it doth appeare by the words of Stephen Gardiner on his death bed The Bishop of Chichester seeing him to be in a desperate case comforteth him with the hope of remission of sinnes by the merits of Christ Gardiner hereunto answereth thus What will you open that gappe now you may speake it to me and to such as are in my case but if you teach it to the people then farewell all meaning our authority pompe and profit by absolutions Masses c. These are the speciall causes why so many embrace Popery C. There is one thing more that I would gladly know concerning the Papists and that is whether a Papist may be saued seeing that Popeâ—ie is so contrary to the grounds of Religion M. You are then to marke what a Papist is A Papist as the Rhemists on Acts 11. Sect. 4. doe describe him is one that cleaueth to the Pope in Religion and is obedient to him in all things Euery one now that is vnder the iurisdictioÌ„ of the Pope is not to be counted a Papist for there are some euen in Italy â—paine c. that hold the Grounds of Religion doe sigh and â—rone vnder the Romish yoke and desire to be free'd from 〈◊〉 yea would reioyce to see it Againe there may be some that for want of knowledge â—nd the meanes thereof are entangled with some points of â—opery but yet they hold the foundation which is CHRIST â—ESVS and looke to be saued by his merits and not by their â—wne or any others Such we account not Papists but the â—â—e Church and children of GOD. But by Papists wee meane such as cleaue fast to the Pope in Religion are in all â—â—ings obedient to him will not be reclaimed from their erâ—â—urs refuse to heare the Word of God to read the Scripâ—â—res or any other good bookes Of such we may boldly say â—â—t if they thus continue to the end they cannot be saued DIALOGVE 15. C. I
doe now plainely see that Papists are no good Catholikes because they are neither of sound faith nor good life but tell me I pray you who indeed are the true Church and true Catholikes M. All that doe truely and sincerely embrace professe and practise the aforesaid grouÌ„ds of Religion in what Countrey soeuer they liue C. Is the Church of England the true Church M. Yes for it hath the speciall markes of the true Church namely the Word of God sincerely and soundly preached and the Sacraments rightly administred C. The Papists say that there are diuersiities of opinions among vâ— that we cannot agree among our selues and that therefore wee are 〈◊〉 the true Church M. In all substantiall points of Religion we agree both amongst our selues and also with all other sound Protestants in Christendome In other things there haue bin are and will be diuersities of opinions and differences to the worlds end They should first plucke out the beame of their owne eyes for we can truely charge them with greater differences As namely with that sharpe and bloudy contention betweene the Franciscans and the Dominicans and vvith the late bitter contention betweene the Iesuites and the secular Priests wherein the Priests did write as bitterly against the Iesuites and namely against Parsons as euer did any Protestant nay there was neuer any Protestant Writeâ— that did lay such foule odious crimes to their charge as thâ— Priests did And heerein they verified the old Prouerbe When theeues fall by the eares true men come to haue theâ— goods For one dissention that is among vs they haue 〈◊〉 least ten among themselues Doctor Willet in his fourth â—â—ler of Papistry hath set downe at large First the conradictions and diuerse opinions of old Papiâ—â— and new 2. The contradictions of the Iesuites anongst themselâ—â— Thirdly that their stoutest Champion Bellarmine is at â—riance with himselfe shamefully forgetting himselfe sayâ— and vnsaying now of one opinion by and by of anothâ—â— And no maruell Oportet enim mendacem esse memorem A lyer had need to haue a good memory Fourthly he sheweth the repugnances inconueniences and inconsequent opinions which Popish Religion hath in it selfe And thus you see how they charge vs with that wherein themselues are most faulty DIALOGVE 16. C. Are there none among vs that maintaine any strange and new opinions contrary to the grounds of Religion M. If there be any such our Church doth not approue of them but rather censure and punish them C. There be some that professe the former grounds of Religion as we doe and yet say that there is no true Church among vs and therefore will not ioyne with vs in prayers hearing the Word and in the vse of the â—acraments but separate themselues from vs what say you of such M. I say that they are possessed with the spirit of pride and singularity and that in so doing they doe euen deny â—hese Articles of faith the Catholike Church and the Communion of Saints and are such as the Apostle speakes of Ro. â—6 17 Heb. 10.25 39. Master Perkins in his first Vol. pag. 409. â—ls them a schismaticall and vndiscreet company and saith â—â—at they are full of pride thinking themselues to bee full â—hen they are empty to haue all knowledge when they are â—â—norant haue need to be catechized Another saith thus 〈◊〉 them The errour of those men is full of euill yea of blesâ—â—emie who doe in such manner make a departure from this â—hurch as if Christ were quite banished from hence and â—â—at there could be no hope of saluation to those that abide â—â—ere And further he saith that if they cannot finde Christ â—ere they shall finde him no where The errours of these â—â—n you may see in a little Treatise set forth by M. Bernard â—â—led The Separatists Schisme C. I pray shew me some example that they ought not to separate â—â—â—mselues from vs and that they doe sinne in so doing M. In the Church of Corinth the incestuous man was not â—â—nished fornication was lightly regarded yea there were some that euen denied the Resurrection yet S. Paul doth account and call them the Church and Saints hee doth not perswade any to make a separation but doth plainely rebuke them and sheweth how they should punish the euill doer I speake not this to excuse any grosse sinne that raigneth amongst vs for I wish that the same might bee seuerely punished but to shew that where the Word is truely preached and the Sacraments rightly administred as in our Church they are none ought for any cause to separate themselues And that such as doe it doe sinne grieuously I will shew yoâ— by a familiar example A mother conceiueth and bringeth forth a sonne and that with great trauaile and paine Sheâ— traineth him vp to mans estate and that not without great care and labour This sonne at length espying some spot and blemish or some infirmitie in his mother forsaketh her and will not acknowledge her to be his mother what would you now thinke of him C. Surely I should thinke such a one to be a very wicked and vnnaturall sonne M. Euen such are they who for some seeming faults iâ— our Church deny it to be a true Church and doe separatâ— themselues from it whereas this Church hath conceiueâ— them brought them forth and nourished them For if eâ—eâ— they were truely begotten vnto Christ and borne anew iâ— hath been by our Church and our Ministerie by whicâ— likewise they haue been trained vp and brought to thâ—â— knowledge which they haue C. There are many amongst vs that make great profession of Râ—â—â—on but I can see no good workes come from them nay they are 〈◊〉 onely barren in good workes but also liue in some one grosse sinne or 〈◊〉 Are these the true Church and true Catholikes M. Though they liue in the Church yet they are noâ— the Church they are but Hypocrites and shal if they repâ—â—â— not haue the reward of Hypocrites yea it shall bee eâ—â— in the Day of Iudgement for many Papists then for theâ—â— because by their barten and fruitlesse yea wicked 〈◊〉 they haue caused the Name of God his Gospell the true Professors thereof to be euil spoken of Let all therfore that will be accounted the true Church and true Christians be carefull to adorne the doctrine of God our Sauiour in all things and that by a godly conuersation and by doing of good workes C. The name of God be blessed for this our conference whereby I finde my selfe much edified There remaineth yet one thing more which I will demand of you and that is How I may come to know and be assured that I am indeed a member of the true Church and that I shall certainly be saued M. Be diligent to heare the Word of God preached Reade the Scriptures Receiue often the Sacrament Acquaint your selfe throughly with the aforesaid grounds of Religion Ioyne hereunto earnest and hearty prayer Set apart some time for these things specially be carefull to spend the Sabbath herein And to all these things ioyne an holy conuersation indeuouring aboue all things to haue alway a cleere conscience toward God and toward men In doing this you shall at length come to that full assurance whereof S. Paul speaketh namely that you are the child of God and that nothing shall be able to separate you from the loue of God which is in Christ Rom. 8.38 Babylon is falne is falne Reu. 14.8 Praise honour glory and power be vnto him that sitteth vpon the Throne and vnto the Lambe for euermore Amen Reuelation 5.13 FINIS