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A20398 A Most excellent and profitable dialogue, of the powerfull iustifying faith shewing what it is to beleeue in God, and what wonders are wrought by the power of beliefe, be it worldly or diuine, and what things do hinder beliefe : also how a man may hate himselfe, and by faith forsake himselfe, and kill the deeds of the flesh : the effect of the talke is this, that he which beleeueth in God, and in his son Iesus Christ, is able by the power of that beliefe, to mortifie his flesh, with the lusts thereof, through the Holy Ghost, and to serue God in spirit and truth / translated out of Latine by Arthur Golding. Golding, Arthur, 1536-1606. 1610 (1610) STC 6809.5; ESTC S342 24,313 58

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and without such hardnesse there is no accesse to be had to that strength like as a figge or a grape cannot become sweet except it be first sowre And because I my selfe haue not yet attained the victory but do yet still sweate in the incounter of forsaking my selfe and as yet am farre off from the garland I will say no more concerning the victory that is to say concerning the thing which is vnknowne to me but yet as much as I can I will helpe you by Gods grace in the incounter if you wil be my companion Lew. Truly for my part although my selfe do shudder start backe at it yet am I carried with my spirit and mind to follow you For I sée no other way for a man to be saued but by departing out of his owne nature that hee may put vpon him the nature of Christ and by caring studying striuing and taking paines to repaire the image whereafter we were created And therefore beséeching God y t it may be to his glory 〈◊〉 mine owne saluation henceforth I yeeld my selfe into this way as a follower of Christ taking God for my guide Fred. And I thanke God for this willingnesse which he hath giuen you beseeching him to finish his worke which hee hath begun in you and to bring you to that poynt that yee may at length serue righteousnesse as ye haue serued vnrighteousnesse which thing hee will vndoubtedly do except you grieue his spirit and cast it out through your disobedience Finally of this I will warne you that you must haue a rich faith because you beleeue in him that is rich in doing good For men haue euer sinned in beleeuing vnto wardly and more niggardly of Gods gracious goodnesse then they ought to do Abraham and Sara were rebuked for laughing as though it had bene a matter to be laughed at that God promised them issue when they were both old and Sara moreouer barraine Zacharias the father of Iohn Baptist was striken dumbe for a time because hee beleeued not the Angels words We be commonly more forward in following the weake beleefe or if I may so terme it the vnbeleefe of the godly then in following their full and rich beliefe Why doe wee not rather follow those which durst beleeue all things Elizeus durst craue double the spirit of Elias which soothly was a great thing euen by the record of Elias himselfe and yet he obtained it so vnpossible is it for any faith to be so great but that Gods gracious goodnesse and power doe surmount the same All things saith he are possible to the beleeuer Againe Whatsoeuer you aske beleeue that you shall obteine it and yee shall haue it in deede Remember I say the saying of Elizeus speaking after this maner to the poore woman Borrow oyle vessels of thy neighbours yea borrow a great sort and the Lord will fill them all full Euen so Lewis let vs do our endeuour that wee may haue such a faith as may be able to receue the greatest good things and let vs be bold to beleeue that God both can and wil bring to passe that wee shall loue him alone with our whole heart soule power and strength And hee of his owne gracious goodnesse will bestowe all thinges vpon vs much more largely then we can euen thinke for his Sonne our Lord Iesus Christs sake to whom be honour glory and dominion for euer Amen FINIS 2 Thes. 1.11 Rom. 6.2.4 Prou. 15. Rom. 5.1 Gal. 5.6 He beginneth at the difficulties of obeying GODS healthful commandements The effectuall power force of beliefe The righteousnesse of the law and why it beareth that name Beliefe without obedience is dead A godly Christian wish concerning obedience Beliefe in God is most necessary to the obtaining of saluation Many things are easie to bee said which are hard to bee done The first way to the knowledge of the truth What it is to beleeue in the Father is shewed by the gathering together of certaine circumstāces How needful obedience to the Father is is shewed by examples Fleshly feare 〈…〉 How belife in God is neglected by trusting too much to these trāsitory flightfull things That Gods promises deceiue not the beleeuers Two things may let mē frō performing their promises Honors change maners as the common prouerbe saith How boūtifull God is to them that loue him Proofes or tokens of mistrust in God Abrahams faith is of necessity to saluation This as I take it is that which they call the historicall faith The signes that are peculiar to the beleeuers The force of worldly faith and how wonderfully it moueth men He proceedeth in shewing the strēgth of the worldly beleefe How great force worldly beleefe hath euen amōg some whole Nations A triall of Christian faith most worthy to be obserued Where obedience is not there is not faith The mark whereat mans saluatiō shooteth What things our forefathers attained to by their faith The fond idle beliefe of the Iewes The work fulnesse of Christian faith appeareth in charity Who they bee which haue the true Christian faith To what purpose bodily myracles are wrought The diuels that lurk within vs and what is meant by speaking with new tongues The works of such as speak with new tongs Of the true iustifying faith how mighty it is in working No man doubts but that all these things are spoken of the wicked beleeuers By an argument frō the lesser to the greater he sheweth the force of true faith Paules faith warranted by his owne record What thing held Paul occupied chiefly aboue all other things The true faith hath scarce any place in the world The impediments of faith shewed by an argument taken from the Court barre or from a case in Law An example by the vse of things in common Another example by the deliuering of soules c. The last example by the persecution for religiōs sake Selfe-loue is the hinderer of faith There is no boubt among Christians cōcerning the doings of Christ What is the cause that so few beleeue Gods commandements Not myracles but beliefe is needfull to saluation The beleeuing of Christs resurrection maketh all the rest of his sayings doings credible What is meant by not beleeuing of Christs commādements and who they be that offēd in that behalfe How the Israelites beleeued not God in that they beleeued not his cōmādemēts How the place taken out of Iohn is to be vnderstood Psalm 95.8 Selfe loue dazeleth mens eyes that they cannot see to beleeue the truth What is the cause why false Prophets do easily finde credit We must 〈…〉 hate our selues and not loue our selues All things be they else neuer so impossible are possible to the power of God How pernicious selfe-loue is is shewed by certaine familiar exāples Men are ●aught with pleasure as ●●shes are 〈◊〉 an an●gle a ba●t 〈◊〉 their vndoing Euery mās own flesh is a harlot of whom he warneth men to take very good heede Most wholsome counsel worthy to be followed The incōparable harmes that come of pleasure The preposterous ●re●erri●g 〈◊〉 the feare 〈◊〉 worldl●●unishnēt ●●fore the ●●are of GODS ●rath ●engeāce The cōclu●●ō gathe●ed of the ●●ings go●●g afore The knowing of many yea or of al things is no let 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 may serue the Diuell 〈◊〉 being 〈◊〉 natiue ●ountry ●annot bee ●orsaken without griefe to vs. Euery mā is a deadly enemy to himselfe how such an enemy is to bee dealt with The flesh the spirit are cleane cōtraries and fightful but one against another A familiar example wha● by 〈◊〉 goet● about to teach a man how to forsake himselfe That to the beleeuer all things seeme they neuer so high hard or aboue power are notwithstanding easie to bee done There is but onely one right way to the attainment of saluatiō Men must not conceiue spa●ingly and niggardly but largely 〈◊〉 aboun●antly of 〈◊〉 gra 〈…〉 dnesse We cannot aske so largely at Gods hand but that his bounty wi●● surmoun● it God will grant vs all good things for Christs ●●ke
A MOST EXCELLENT AND PROFItable Dialogue of the powerfull iustifying Faith Shewing what it is to beleeue in God and what wonders are wrought by the power of Beliefe be it worldly or Diuine and what things do hinder Beliefe Also how a man may hate himselfe and by Faith forsake himselfe and kill the deeds of the flesh The effect of the talke is this That he which beleeueth in God and in his Son Iesus Christ is able by the power of that Beliefe to mortifie his flesh with the lusts thereof through the holy Ghost and to serue God in spirit and truth Translated out of Latine by Arthur Golding LONDON Printed by N.O. for Samuel Rand and are to be sold at his shop on Holburne bridge 1610. TO THE CHRIstian Reader GOod Reader amongst the multitude of books both written and printed that be at this day spread abroade in the world I lighted vpon this little Treatise of Faith wherein perceiuing a matter handled so necessary needfull to be read and knowne of all men especially in these dangerous if not desperate daies wherin iniquity haue gotten the vpper hand and men are growne so blinde that they striue more about the chaffe then for the pure wheate corne it selfe and content themselues to feede rather on the leaues then on the fruit of the fig tree that is more to talke of an imagined faith then to know haue and enioy in themselues the true powerfull and liuing faith which is a daily dying to sin rising to righteousnesse Seeing the same I say a worke so necessary to bee knowne of all men I thought it good being also perswaded thereto by many that haue found great benefite by it to be a means for the printing of it that whosoeuer haue any zeale or desire to know the true faith and to haue it with the fruites thereof effectually in himselfe as is said he may view himselfe in this little pithy Treatise of the powerful faith The title with the Authors name was torne out before it came to my hands but whosouer was the Writer the matter will shew from whence it came And so the almighty God which liueth euerlastingly plant his true feare and faith in our hearts that being iustified by this powerful faith that worketh through loue we may haue peace with God through Iesus Christ our Lord. Amen A MOST EXCELLENT AND PROFITAble little Booke concerning the true Christian Faith The persons that talke together are Lewis and Frederike Lewis GLadly in good sooth friend Frederick haue I heard your talke both yesterday and today and thereby I haue learned many things which I knew not before and this is one thing which hath chiefly moued mee that you haue shewed that our Lord commandeth not any thing which is vnpossible to bée done For I was of beliefe before that as it is commonly heard taught Gods commandements are vnpossible to be obeyed Which perswasion to tell you the truth hath made me slow to obey so as I neuer strained my selfe to obey with my whole power Fred. The like hath befalne vnto mee also and I could neuer yeeld my selfe truly and earnestly to obeying before I beleeued that it was possible to obey And truly hereby I haue learned the force of Beliefe which Beliefe maketh a man desirous and willing to obey And desire being afterward matched with power giuen of God bringeth to passe that a man doth the things which he hath beleeued himselfe to be able to do and so he is saued by obeying as he was earst vndone by disobeying And so being led by the spirit of Christ he fulfilleth the righteousnes of the law not walking after the flesh but liuing after the spirit which righteousnesse is therfore called the righteousnesse of the law not for that it maketh the beleeuer righteous but because the law requireth it For the whole performance thereof is Christs because it is brought to passe by his power and spirit liuing working in those that are his The law thē cōmandeth Christ fulfilleth so the praise is due not to the commander but to the performer Neuerthelesse it were to smal purpose to beleeue that it is possible to obey God vnlesse a mā do also know the way how God may be obeied without the which obedience faith is dead without faith no man can be saued But this I would haue you to be perswaded of my Lewis that the discourses both of vs and of all others are to say no worse of them vnprofitable if they traine vs not to obedience and to the renewing of the man Lew. These things are true Frederike Therefore that I may fare somewhat the better by your cōmunication I pray you shew me by what meane I may attaine to obey God For inasmuch as you haue shewed me by your talke that it is possible to be done I haue conceiued a desire of obeying Fred. O my Lewis would God that I my selfe were rightly obedient to the intent I might leade thee by the hand to obedience As now it is impossible for me to leade you further then I my selfe haue attained vnto Lew. Yet notwithstāding I beléeue you haue procéeded further forward then I haue done therfore I beséech you shew me but as far as you your selfe are gone Fred. Willingly will I do that Lewis but I am afraid the hardnesse and roughnesse of the way will scare you from it Lew. Feare not I hope I am ready to al things be they neuer so hard so I may attaine to the end that I desire Fred. I pray God to establish this willingnesse of yours to bring it throughout to the end And therefore to goe in hand with the matter you know how the Author of the Epistle to the Hebrewes hath written that without saith it is vnpossible to please God Lew. I know it well Fred. First of all then you must beleeue in God if you will be saued Lew. Procéede on then to the other things my Fredericke For as concerning beliefe I haue euer from my child-hood beléeued in God and truly I am of opinion that there be very few if there be any at all which beleeue not in God Fred. Indeed it is very easie to be said and so are men commonly perswaded But I feare me it is said rather rashly and of custome then of truth For the time hath bene that euen I also haue beleeued the same both of my selfe and of others but when it came to the tryall then I saw how farre of I was Lew. Thinke you then that I haue no faith Fred. I am not of opinion that you haue no faith Lewis but I thinke you haue so slender a faith as it cannot rightly bee said to be faith or saue you And I pray you bee not offended with mee for in as much as you haue said that you are ready to all things be they neuer so hard it is meet afore all things that
Insomuch that when my father my mother were about to haue sent me a little money I sent them word againe that thenceforth I should néed no money What néed many words I imagined aforehand in my minde a kinde of fashion of the buildings and of the place and of the persons among whom I was to dwell and yet had I neuer seene them Fred. I beleeue you Lewis For I my selfe haue had experience of the like But what if you had not beleeued that message Lew. Surely I had continued in mine old state still Fred. And what if a man had seene you abiding in your former state might he not well haue auowed that you beleeued not the message Lew. Yes very well Fred. Now let vs come to the matter To them that loue God God hath promised such good things as neither eye hath seene nor eare heard nor heart of man conceiued Let vs confesse the truth here also my Lewis If we beleeued this promise throughly should not our mindes be rauished vp into heauen so as no earthly care might touch vs much lesse trouble vs Lew. Yes verily Fred. But now when wee bee glad of gaine sory for losse greatly grieued and cast downe with reproch hoysed vp with honour and ouerioyed with pleasure all which things are earthly is it not an apparant proofe that we beleeue not Gods promises but sticke still to the earthly inheritance Lew. Yes that it is Fred. What if God should promise vs some thing that might seeme vnpossible as when he promised old Abraham a son by Sara being old and barren too Or what if hee should command vs a thing that might seeme vnreasonable as when he willed the said Abraham to offer vp his sonne in sacrifice by which sonne he had promised him an off-spring without number Lew. Surely I am afraid wee would not beleeue him Fred. And yet was Abraham the father of the faithfull so as if we will bee saued we must haue the faith of Abraham And thus much concerning beliefe in the Father Now if we come to the Sonne I feare me we much lesse beleeue in him For I take not faith as a number thinke it to be a beleeuing that Christ hath done and suffered the things which are written of him for as for that faith or beliefe the very diuels haue it But I speake of the true liuely mightfull faith which is able euen to remoue mountaines whereof the Lord speaketh thus The signes that shal follow those which beleeue are these In my name they shall cast out Diuels speake with new tongues and driue away serpents if they drinke any deadly thing it shal not hurt them When they lay their hands vpon sicke folkes the sicke folkes shall recouer Doe these tokens follow your faith Lewis Lew. No verily Fred. Then you haue not faith Lew. Why They deny that there is now any néede of myracles Fred. Neither do I now require any such neither were they at that time wrought by all beleeuers For Paul writeth Do all worke myracles Haue all the gifts of healing Doe all speake with tongues The thing that I require is the same that Peter requireth Get you strength to your faith saith he For needs must the faith of any man or of any time haue strength if it bee matched with loue Which thing that you may the better vnderstand consider the force of worldly beliefe A man beleeues that riches are good and that it is possible for him to attaine to it by merchandise Hereupon leauing oftentimes a very faire and deare-beloued wife and yong children at home hee vndertakes the vnmeasurable perils of robbers of waies and of seas and endureth intollerable pains to feth the riches whereon hee hath set his beliefe and loue euen from Taprobane and the Isles of Canarie which are the vttermost parts of the world and it is his beliefe that purchaseth him this stoutnesse For vnlesse he beleeued he would not do it And therefore it may bee said that this man is enriched by beliefe What shall wee say of Learning Lewis The child beleeueth that learning and humane arts are a very goodly thing and to bee sought with all his power And thereupon applying himselfe to them day and night hee endureth pouertie cold and whatsoeuer else in seking them with all his might to the intent hee may attaine to the thing which hee beleeueth to bee good Also what do souldiers What kind of calamity is there which they vndertake not to obtaine either victory or reward How often watch they all the night long How often are they pinched with hunger insomuch that sometimes they eate Mice Rats Horses yea euen their own shooes and afterward make their boast thereof Whence haue they so great strength Whence but of beliefe For they beleeue the thing which they couet to be good Againe what do hunters doe do they not spend oftentimes the whole winter nights abroad when the cold is so great that it giueth euen the flints Yea and what do louers what inconueniences do they not most gladly endure to the intent to please the partie whom they be in loue withall And still they deeme themselues happy that they haue suffered those things for her sake And this force of beliefe is seene no onely in seuerall persons but also euen in whole nations For whereof comes it that our Italians doe so easily absteine from drunkennesse or that the Swissers are so resolute in battell that they will rather be slaine then flye Euen of this that they are perswaded in themselues that so they ought to doe And surely if they perswaded themselues alike in all other vertues they should excell alike in all other vertues Many other things of the same sort may be gathered so great is the power of the beliefe that worketh in thē Therefore let vs examine our faith that we may seee whether Christs spirit do dwell in vs or no. Christ telleth vs that they bee blessed which doe hunger and thirst after righteousnesse and hee commandeth vs to hoord vp treasure in heauen Come on Doe you feele as great thirst of righteousnesse as euer you haue selt at any time of water or as great desire of Gods kingdome as the couetous man feeleth desire of money Doe you watch day and night to please God Haue you euer spent a whole yeare or twaine in the study of godlinesse Lew. Nothing lesse Fred. Well What strength haue you in suffering of wrongs If a mā strike you on the right cheeke can you turne to him the left Can you blesse him that curseth you Can you wish well to him that reuileth you Can you pray for him that raileth vpon you Can you seeke his welfare which practiseth your death Lew. Soothly I am very farre off from these things Fred. Then doe you not beleeue in Christ. For if you did you would obey his commandements Lew. But I neuer referred beléefe to
them In being imprisoned I passe them In death I haue often bene Of the Iewes I haue fiue times receiued fortie stripes saue one Thrice haue I bene whipped Once haue I bene stoned thrice haue I suffered shipwracke day night haue I spent in the deepe seas Often haue I iourneyed Often haue I bene in danger of Riuers of Robbers of mine owne Countrymen of strangers in the Citie in the Wildernesse on the sea and amongst false brethren Often haue I bin tired with trauelling and with watching often haue I fainted for hunger and thirst in fasting often haue I bene a cold for want of cloathes And besides all the other things which daily distresse me verily the care of all Churches lyeth vpon me Who is weakened and I am not the worse at ease for it who is offended and I am not grieued at it This is the almightie strength of faith Lewis wherewith he being armed was enabled to do al things by him which strēgthned him and if we haue the same strength then surely there is cause for vs to thinke our selues to haue the same faith if not thē let vs not beare our selues in hand that wee haue the thing which we wāt lest it befal vnto vs as it doth to that man which dreameth that he hath found a treasure and when he awaketh he hath not an halfepeny Lew. O my Fredericke my imagination that I abounded in faith is but a dreame but now being wakened by your words I sée plainly that I am quite and cleane without it as the rest of the world is For as for this effectuall power of faith I neither finde it in my selfe nor perceiue it in the world Fred. That you be faithlesse Lewis it is to be lamented but that being so you see your self to be so that is not only not to be lamēted but also to be reioyced at like as a sicknesse is it selfe to be misliked but the knowledge of the sicknesse is to bee well liked Lew. By what meane then or by what medicine may this my disease of vnbeliefe be cured Fred. By taking away the impedimēts of vnbeliefe Lew. Which are those Fred. You haue heard them of me already in my former talke Howbeit for asmuch as you haue scantly cōceiued them as things that your eares haue not heard of for our maner is not to bee ouerhasty in bearing words or things away which we haue not heard of afore I will tell you thē more plainly Giue good heed What thinke you to bee the cause why no man in matters of iustice is admitted to bee a witnesse in his owne case Lew. Because all men doe loue themselues and therefore will euer speake for themselues or at least wise neuer against themselues Fred. You say rightly And if they bee not willing to speake against themselues neither are they willing to heare any thing against themselues For the truth that is against them misliketh them lesse out of another mans mouth then out of their owne Lew. It doth so Fred. And if they be vnwilling to heare those things truly they be not willing to beleeue thē For no mā wil willingly beleeue the things which he is loath to heare of but al men do easily beleeue the things which they like of As for example If a man should say that the goods of Christians ought to be common among them whether sort would easiliest beleeue it the rich or the poore Lew. The poore Fred. Why so Lew. Because that by that match they should not lose but rather win Fred. What would the rich folke doe Lew. Hardly or not at al rather would they beleeue it because they should thereby become the poorer which thing they mislike of Fred. What if a man should deny that mens soules are deliuered out of Purgatory by Masses whether would the Clergie or the Laytie soonest beleeue it Lew. Not the Clergie because that opinion would bee a diminishing of their reuenewes Lewis What if it should bee said that vsurie were vnlawful for Christians were it possible to make those beleeue it which liue vpon vsurie and become rich by it Lew. Scarcely Fr. What if one should teach that men ought not to bee put to death for religion whether would they soonest beleeue it which are in credit with the Magistrats and are Diuines themselues and yet are persecuters of other men or at the leastwise willing to persecute them or the contrary sort Lew. The contrary sort For I know some Diuines who as long as they wanted that authority and were troubled for religiōs sake taught that men ought not to be molested for religion And yet the selfe same persons hauing gotten wealth and authority haue both taught done the contrary Fred. You see then how faith is hindered by selfe-loue so as men do not easily beleeue the things that are contrary to their liking Lew. I sée it plainly Fred. Let vs consider then whether the same cause bee not an impediment to our beliefe in Christ. In the doctrine of Christ are histories promises and commandements As for the histories and promises almost all men beleeue them because that in them no duty on mans behalfe is required Neither is there any controuersie among Christians whether Christ haue done the things which are reported of him in the holy Scriptures or whether he haue promised the things that are conteyned there But what is the cause that so few beleeue his commandements Lew. Do fewer folke beléeue his commandements then do beléeue his doings and promises Fred. Doubt you of that First as touching Gods commandements whereas our maisters vniuersally be wont to teach that they be not set downe to the intent we should obey them but to make vs acknowledge our infirmities what else is it then a discrediting of Gods commandements For seeing our Lord hath said that all things are possible to him that beleeueth and Paul saith he is able to doe all things through him that strgēthneth him surely that man which not onely obeyeth not Gods commandements but also beleeueth that it is vnpossible to obey them doth not beleeue the commandements aright Whereupon it followeth that looke how few folke obey the commandements so few do beleeue them Lew. But this saying which you alledge namely that all things are possible to the beléeuer séemeth to bee spoken of myracles and not obedience Fred. It is spoken generally of all the workes of faith which I spake of in alledging that place of the Epistle to the Hebrewes Through faith the Saints conquered kingdomes wrought righteousnesse c. For surely to worke righteousnes is a deed of faith Besides this if Gods wil be that mē should through faith be able to work myracles which notwithstāding are not of the necessity of their saluation much more is it his will that they shold by the same faith be able to obey his commandements seeing that without obedience a man cannot be saued and