the philosophers of outward good works wherof you brag lustily in the later ende of this Chapter yet you shall neuer be able to proue your selues good trees because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures wil be proued false and Idolatrous This your selfe giue to be the very reason why the philosophers were bad trees notwithstanding that in respect of outward shew of holines we may truely confesse with you that euen their liues at the day of iudgement shall will confound a number of Christians in name which led Painims liues And therefore vntill it be set out of question that your Religion is not false nor Idolatrous which is impossible as long as the Scriptures keepe their place if you bragge of ten times moe outward workes then either you doe or can yet your owne mouth will condemne you as yet to haue saied nothing to proue your selues good trees And on the contrary euen by this your owne saying if we can proue our religion to be the sound Christian faith taught indeede by Christ and his Apostles and therefore that neuer since hell gates could preuaile against it which we doubt not of whensoeuer you will enter into this controuersie with vs then for all your saying here to the contrary Christes sentence shall giue vs very good aduantage Thus hauing shewed your cunning in restraining and collecting of this prouerbe of Christ as I haue now as one that after some wresting found it stronger for you then you would haue thought you graunt it to be most true the naturallie a good tree bringeth forth good fruit not bad at all and a crab-tree nothing but crabs And this you labour to proue first by certaine testimonies of S. Iohn affirming that he that is borne of God sinneth not then by other places as Iohn 8. Sap. 1.1 Cor. 10. you confirme that doctrine of S. Iohn lastly by a similitude shewing that as the rottennes wormeatennes or any such fault in the fruite of a good tree letteth not but that still naturally that tree may be saied to beare good fruit because these things fall out by some accident vnnaturall to the tree euen so the good tree alwaies as it is a good tree bringeth forth naturally good fruit Here in effect you let go and giue ouer the former restraining of Christs words and recant that you saied before the aâ—il tree as the philosophers may bring forth good fruit a good tree as a Catholique in Religion by whom you meane a Papist may bring forth ill fruits and will you nill you you are enforced to confesse that Christes wordes are generally true simply therefore alwaies verified of both good trees and bad trees as they are naturally considered But yet you adde the tree is knowen by his fruit and faith by workes so as then the fruit bee ripe in due season not otherwise Wherein I take your meaning to be that not euery shew of fruites nor vnripe works but works indeede good both in matter and maner of doing are the fruits whereby a good tree iustifying faith is discerned You yet proceede and say that as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging vpon a good tree seeing that came not thorow the nature of the tree but by meanes of wormes birdes or some other such accident ministreth not a sufficient argument to proue that tree to be an ill tree so the ill workes of Christians ought not to staine their holy Catholique religioÌ„ For the corruption of their fruits commeth not from the nature of these religion which forbiddeth such fruits or workes but from themselues In all this vnderstanding not as you doe but as you should the holie Catholique Religion indeede which yours will neuer proue we ioyne with you and allow what you haue saied And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholique religion haue thus answered the obiection drawen from the good workes of professours of our religion and from the bad workes of yours so euen in the same words and maner supposing our religioÌ„ not yours to be that true holy religioÌ„ your obiection against vs grounded vpon the good workes of some of yours lewde liues of some that yet professe ours is also answered For we tel you as you seeme here to tel vs that your works are not ripe works such as good works should be both in matter and maner and therefore no argument more of the goodnes of your religion then the Philosophers works were of the goodnes of theirs that the ill works fouÌ„d in some of our professours ought not to steine our religioÌ„ forasmuch as none of them are iustified but condemned by the same But in the vttering of these things you haue vttered diuers things whereof it is needful to admonish both you and your Reader First in examining S. Iohns words you seeme simply to vnderstand that by being borne of God hee meant nothing else but being baptized as though they were both one or at least so inseparably coÌ„ioined that whosoeuer were outwardly baptized were certainely forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne wherein you and al that ioyne with you therein shew both great errour and ignorance in the doctrine of that sacrament For though by that sacrament al that haue receiued it are sacramentally new borne and receiued into Christs Church and therein haue had the washing away of their sinnes in the bloud of Christ represented vnto them offered vnto them and sealed and ratified on Gods behalfe to belong vnto them if they inwardly also will imbrace it yet to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sinnes with regeneration and remission of sinnes it selfe or to tye the later so vnto the former as that of necessity whosoeuer is partaker of the former is also partaker of the later is against all good diuinity Scripture and experience For diuinity admitteth not a confounding of the outward signe with the inward grace in a sacrament the scripture experience withall teacheth vs the SimoÌ„ Magus was baptised and yet no sounde diuine euer helde that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated for by his fruites the contrary by and by euidently appeared Act. 8. Againe if outwardly to be baptised were by by to be regenerated then al that haue beene baptised haue beene inwardly regenerated all that are baptised once must needs be so which thing if it were so why how coÌ„meth it to passe that many neuer shew any fruites of regeneration and die giuing plaine euidence that they were neuer borne anew notwithstanding they were baptised and that there is no more hast made to baptise Turkes Iewes and whomsoeuer we can come by But it seemeth that as you holde this errour of baptisme that to defend it withall you are of opinion that a man once may be truely regenerated and so the childe of God iustified and sanctified in the bloud of Christ through grace and yet
haÌ„ging in S. Markâ— church at Venice sheweth that Pope AlexaÌ„der the 3. himselfe treading vpon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. caused thâ—se words of the Psalm Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the Adder tread the Cockatrise vnder thy feete which are properly to be vnderstoâ—â— of Christ to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his whereby appeareth that the Pope himselfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers That of Paul by him vnderstood of those that follow the directioÌ„ of the old maÌ„ and are led in their doings by the flesh They that are in the flesh caÌ„not please God Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of theÌ„ that liue in the estate of mariage A Bishop must be the husbaÌ„d of one wife saieth Paul 1. Tim. 3. that is by their interpretatioÌ„ of one benefice and so his house and children that he must well order and gouerne there also spokeÌ„ of be his parish and parishioners Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell he should there finde store of such interpretatioÌ„s for the maintenaÌ„ce of images so ridiculously alleadged as euer were any And how is it possible that the Church of Rome holding those principles that she doeth but that you must needes be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures as euer were For both Cusan Epist 2.3.7 Hosius de expresso Dei verbo in his triple Dialogue doe teach that the scriptures must alwaies be interpreted according to the practise of the Church so that how oft soeuer that change the sence of the scripture must change also For still the sence thereof must be fitted to the time and in no case it may be thought to retaine a sence contrary to the practise of the Church And now you are fully come to this whatsoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures doctours or councels your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority to interprete all as one hauing authoritie so to doe for his owne sence So that in deede and trueth neither Scriptures doctours nor councels how plaine soeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church shall cary awaie any sence to ouerwharte you at all but will they nill they they shal be caused by your Pope to speake on your side And therefore these thinges considered you are the men and not wee that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king that you speake of in your twenty three Chapter and decke the image of a dogge or of a foxe therewith that is according to your owne application which take the wordes of the Scripture and by wresting of them make them serue to countenance your heresies For heresies wee holde none â—â—ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures but in his true sence 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned we are alwaies readie to proue â—nd therefore for all your saying to the contrarie the Scripture as it is alleadged by vs shall proue euen that word of God that shall iudge you and condemne you if you repent not the sence that you force vpon it shall proue but the deuise of man false doctrine yea your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde heresies For with the Ebionits you will not be iustified by faith onely Euseb lib. 3. ca. 24. but also by your owne workes inhereÌ„t righteousnes as the Catharists haue taught you Isidor Etymolog lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus Of the Manichees you haue learned your ministring in one kinde Leo serm 4. de Quadragesimâ Marcus that heretique who by his inuocatioÌ„s made his followers beleeue that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into bloud hath beene your first schoolemaster for your doctrine of traÌ„substantiation Epip haeres 34. And your multitude of images your worshipping of them the Carpocratians haue taught you as to appeares Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. when you commit these idolatries you haue learned to excuse your selues to torment your selues and to light candels at noone daies of the ancient idolaters LactaÌ„tus lib. 2. cap. 2. lib. 1. cap. 21 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptisme to former sinnes witnesse Theodoret diuin decret cap. de baptismo so doe you As Montanus taught of purgatory oblations and praiers for the dead and limbus patrum Tertullian de coronâ militis euen so doe you As the Collyridians sacrificed vnto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her Epiphan haeres 79 so doe you As the Angelists and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels Epiphan haeres 38 so doe you As Montanus and the Manichees deuised lawes for superstitious fasting Euseb lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13 so doe you As the Tatians Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony crying out that it was a carnal life therefore forbad it to their elect and to them that would be perfect amongst them August Epist 47 likewise doe you And as the Pelagians denyed that to be sin which ariseth not from reason and wil August contra Iulianum lib. 3. cap. 5 so doe you for the very same reasons deny concupiscence of it selfe without consent thereunto to be sinne as there further it appears they ascribed to the natural powers strenght to doe spirituall things and affirmed that a man is to be saued for and by keeping the law so doe you Of the Valentâ—nians also you learned to haue in such price as you haue the signâ—â—f the Crosse and to abuse places of Scripture for it as God forbiâ— that I should reioice in any thing but in the Crosse of Christ Irenâ—us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleoâ—nites you learned your extreame vnction and other ceremonies you vse to the dead Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Macionites Pepusians Aug ad Quod. cap. 27 you learned to giue women leaue to baptise Epiphan haeres 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water holie salte holie oile and holy bread Epiphan lib. 1 Tom. 1. cap. 17. 19. And of the same Ossenes you haue learned also your superstition about reliques and to pray in an vnknowen tongue as Elcai their great Pope taught them Epiphan haeres 19. Thus if a man in reading Augustine Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others that haue laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques would diligently marke what heresies and fonde things they held and vsed he should by and by by comparing their doings opinions with yours finde that you haue reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned heresies and that you haue learned most of your Ceremonies of them And yet as though you of all men were freest and furthest from all heresie still you crie out he retiques heretiques But it is but policy that you haue learned of some theeues who the better in an hew cry to escape ride crying out of theeues theeues But for all
and so in effecte you denie the cause of his comming For to what ende came he but to execute that office that wee are taught in the Scripture his heauenly father appointed him Deny therefore that he hath executed that office and you deny the cause of his comming And you know sublatâ causâ tollitur effectus deny the cause and the effect is denied I knowe you will thinke that I offer you great wrong in charging you thus directly with denying Christ of his office but if you will haue patience a little if I proue it not let me haue the shame thereof You will say for your defence that you confesse and acknowledge him to be the Sauiour and redeemer of the world and you will say you beleeue by him to be saued I doe not deny but you will and doe say all this and more also but what is that to the purpose as long as in your deedes and practise you go from it againe and robbe him of that honour that is due vnto him Iudas saied vnto him Haile master and kissed him when indeede he betraied him and Pilat wrote him Iesus of Nazareth king of the Iewes and yet crucified him But to come nearer vnto you it cannot be denied but that the false Apostles that gaue Paul occasion to write to the Galathians did not deny these things which you giue out in wordes of Christ this onely was their fault that they taught men to ioyne their owne merits atteined vnto by the obseruing of Moses lawe togither with Christ in the office of iustifying theÌ„ as it most clearely appeareth throughout that Epistle For hauing of which conceite in their obseruations of Moses lawe and namely in being circuÌ„cised for otherwise in the same place he saieth neither circumcision nor vncircumcision auaileth any thing hee telleth them most confidently chap. 5. that Christ should profitte them nothing yea that they were abolished from Christ and fallen from grace Whereupon most euidently it followeth that Paul was of this minde that howsoeuer the lawe was obserued of them that beleeued in Christ it might not be obserued with this minde and to this ende thereby together with Christ to iustifie the obseruer You cannot say that heere Paul speaketh of obseruing the lawe to this ende before they had faith For he speaketh to such as after they had by his ministry attained vnto faith in Christ were now taught by false teachers to ioyne their owne merits in obseruing Moses lawe with Christ in iustifying But yet you say he speaketh in this and in such places onely of the workes of the ceremoniall law which was then abolished wherein you say more then you can proue For he so excludeth workes from this office of iustifying that he oft aduoutcheth that iustification commeth freely as Rom. 3. Ephes 2. and he calleth saluation the free gift of God Rom. 6. and therefore as little commeth it for morall workes sake as for Ceremoniall But though you could proue that he disableth onely Ceremoniall workes yet you could not escape the sentence set downe by the Apostle against such as doe them to the end aforesaied Yes say you for we doe not teach men to obserue them at all much lesse to any such ende What then you haue deuiled a number of Ceremoniall workes of your owne as the obseruing of holy daies and fasting daies going on pilgrimage offring to this shrine that taking of holy water creeping to the Crosse wearing of this thing and that and a thousand such other which you perswade men and women to obserue with as great an opinion to merit therby as euer the false Apostles taught either Galathians Colossians or any other to obserue Moses Ceremonies And you must remember that Paul reasoneth to the Col. cap. 2. that seeing they were in Christ freed from the ceremonies of Moses law which he calleth ther the ordinaÌ„ces of the world much more they ought to take themselues freed from traditions touch not tast not handle not and very reason will tell you that if in Pauls time it were a denying and renouncing of Christ to obserue the Ceremonies that God himselfe had appointed once and which so long by his owne ordinance had beene kept in the Church with that opinioÌ„ thereby togither with Christ to be iustified much more is it so to obserue these beggerly Ceremoniall ordinances of yours which yet neuer had any allowance from God but doe flatly contrarie his will in his word I knowe you Iesuites haue taught you yet one shift more and that is this that you haue not any such opinion in your works morall or Ceremoniall nor in any thing els that you doe or vse wherein you haue opinion of merit for their owne dignity or worthines considered in themselues but for that they are tincta sanguine Christi that is aduanced to that force and dignity thorowe the force of the death and passion of Christ Wherein sathan as it seemeth hath beene put to trie the vttermost of his cunning For therein doubtles is conteined though colourably a deepe mistery of iniquity and yet vnder new colours the very same Antichristianitie in robbing Christ of his office that was before For the reason why we charge you with denying Christes office is that wee take it taught in the worde that he is a sole and whole a full and perfect Sauiour in himselfe and by himselfe because it is writeâ—â— Math. 22. that in the mariage of the kinges sonne all thinges are prepared alreadie and Act. 4. that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation And we finde that you communicate at least some part of this office to mens owne workes and satisfactions and that which is more monstrous to the workes and satisfactions of others and to a number not onely of vaine and friuolous things as to holy water hallowed graines Agnus Dei and such like but also to the doing of some thinges which we know and are most sure of are horrible sinnes before God as to your blasphemous Masse-saying and to the vnnaturall murdering or deposing of lawfull Princes by their owne subiects at your Popes pleasure and commandement And by this newe shift none of this former dealing is recanted or reuoked but onely this is added that these thinges thus communicate with Christ in iustifying and sauing not simplie by their owne vertue force and dignity but by an efficacie that they haue got thorowe Christ Whereupon it must needes follow doth before God and true Christians that you are growen more iniurious to Christ then euer any of your forefathers were For whereas before you your selues alone robbed Christ of his office whiles you taught plainely that these thinges ex condigno ex opere operato that is euen in respect of their owne dignity and by the worke wrought were meritorious to euerlasting life now you continue not onely your former robbing of him your selues but you will make him the principall or at least accessarie to this robbing
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
where I rest O most beautifull amongst all women follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards If wee well note and vnderstand this answere it will learne vs that that shall suffice to keepe vs from running euer astray The sense is this O thou Christian which art troubled in thy conscience not knowing because of so many heresies which way thou shalt go or how thou shalt discerne the true religion from other false doctrine take my counsaile the which is to follow step by step the flocke that went before thee If that a thousand or two thousaÌ„d sheep run ouer a plaine those that come afterward doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them Doe not they discerne the way that the first went Yes surely although there be no Shepheard to guide them And if thou doest answere that this doeth not suffice for I doe see diuerse pathes I see the path of the Caluinistes Cant. 1. the path of the Lutherans and the path of those of the Roman Church but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I should choose To this I answere thus set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepheardes and of thy Pastours I meane that a Then we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe I would haue thee to leane to that flocke that can leade thee from age to age and from yeare to yeare vnto the crosse of Iesus Christ on the which hee was nailed at noone daies and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thy selfe and thy conscience Then to beginne If thou doest aske the Caluinistes Where is the true faith the which as they saie doeth consist in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde and in the administration of the Sacramentes according to the institution of Iesus Christ they will answere It is at Geneua the Lutherans will answere at Wittemberge and the Anabaptistes will answere at MonasteriuÌ„ the Vbiquitaries they wil answer at â—ubing and the Trinitaries at Petricone and so consequentlie of the rest And then pursue and aske further where it was twentie yeares agone They will saie in the saied cities but if thou come to demaund of them where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone if they are ashamed anie thing at all to lye they wil not answere at all for there is none of them that can denie but that Luther who began to preach his new Gospell the yeare b This is a monstrous and impudent vntruth for constantly and generally wee say and proue by the Scripture that our religioÌ„ hath plentifull warrant both in the olde newe Testament 1517 was the first beginner of all these troubles the father of al those that teach this reformed Religion Then is it farre from that place where thy frend was nailed at middaie or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone before the newe Church was dreampt of And therefore thou maiest easilie perceaue that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doest desire and consequentlie that is not the flock that wee should followe Then let vs come vnto the Roman Church and demaund where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone They will answere thee in France Spaine England Germanie and so ouer all Christendome And of thou aske where it was 500. yeares agone c They wil say so therefore it was so they will saie In the saied places And a thousand yeares agone likewise and likewise a thousand and fiue hundred yeares agone This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie as the others doe but it will leade thee vnto the verie time of the death and passion of d This is also most vntrue for the popish doctrine from point to point wee are able to shew when it began and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is not in a thousand years after Christ Christ by continuance of oâ—â— doctrine and by succession of pastours which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the sheepe heardes And therefore this is the place where thou must seeke thy Tabernacle and quiet thy conscience to the ende that thou bee not a lost sheepe and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blast of new doctrine e None such coggers as Papistes in giuing the sence of the Scriptures who make not them the rule of their practise but their practise how mutable so euer the rule to giue the sence thereof by that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe set forth to deceaue the simple sheepe The IIII. Chapter TO this fourth chapter I answere that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God wee as well as you exhorte Christes sheepe to followe the tracte of the flocke of Christ and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his sheepheardes that so they maie bee ledde on and vp to Christ himselfe But then forasmuch as wee haue learned before by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter concerning the fashion of heretiques especiallie seeing the same confirmed in you and other heretiques and apostataes in these our daies that euerie flocke is not Christes flocke that will pretende so to bee nor they alwaies his true sheepeheardes that are so accounted wee wish euerie one that wilfullie is not disposed to suffer himselfe to bee seduced by those that falsely thus pretende to learne to bee able as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no which they shall and may doe in trying both the flockes and their sheepheardes by the infallible worde of Christ contained in the Canonicall Scriptures For Christes sheepe will heare and obey his voice Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and sufficiently is sounded in the written worde For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation through the faith which is in Christ Iesus For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may be absolute being made perfit vnto all good workes 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true sheepeheardes will feede his sheepe with the sincere milke of this worde because that is it which they must desire as new borne babes doe milke that they may growe vp thereby if so be they haue tasted how bountifull the Lord is 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it according whereunto he that speaketh must speake because it is writen if any maÌ„ speake let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule if the flockes and sheepeheardes whom wee followe bee tryed they shal bee founde the sheepe whose tracte is to bee followed and the sheepeheardes by whose tentes is safe feeding And contrarilie by this rule your flockes and sheepeheardes come to the tryall of it when you
consequent thereof which is eating of Christes precious bodie with the filthy mouthes of vnbeleeuers bee absurd the antecedent thereof must also bee absurde Howbeit because you shall not say that we are vnwilling to yeelde you thorowly an account why we deny your reall presence vnderstand you yet further we are mooued so to doe because your doctrine of traÌ„substantiation the onely vpholder thereof and the doctrine it selfe as you holde it bringeth in without all reason such an interpretation and construction of the wordes of the instruction of this Sacrament as taketh away the analogie betweene the signes and the thinges whereof they are signes ouerthroweth the nature of a Sacrament in anihilating or otherwise abandoning the outward part which scripture and al antiquity necessarily require to continue to the constitution of a Sacrament as bringeth in many monstrous absurdities and needelesse miracles contrary both to the true faith of Christes manhoode and good maners abhorring both by nature and expresse warrant of the scripture from eating and drinking of mans flesh and bloud couered or vncouered and as lastly inferreth an eating drinking of Christ by the mouthes of the wicked and vnbeleeuers as wel as of beleeuers Which eating of Christ with the bodily mouth neither standeth with the doctrine of the word which teacheth no such bodily commition of our boâ—ies with Christs therefore seeing the sacraments are but confirmations of that which is taught in the word cannot or may not be taught herein nor yet with the nature of the couenaÌ„t communion with christ which is spirituall belongeth only to the faithful therefore only mâ—st be offered sealed ratified in this sacrament to them And yet for alâ—â—â—s I would not haue you to imagine that we deny al kinde of reall preseÌ„ce in this sacrament of Christs body bloud For we doe most constaÌ„tly teach with the ancient fathers that in this sacrament though by means thereof there be a change in name vse honour and estimation in the outward elements yet they remaine stil to be fed on with the mouth of the body and that when by occasion of that which is done by the outward elements the communicaÌ„t calleth thankfully to remembraÌ„ce christs death and beleeueth that his body was as certainly broken for him â— his bloud shed as there he seeth the bread brokeÌ„ wine poured out and both deliuered vnto him that thereby his ful perfect saluatioÌ„ was absolutely wrought theÌ„ by this mouth of his soule faith he as certainly though after a spiritual vnspeakeable maner feedeth vpoÌ„ christs very broken body bloudshed groweth through the working of the spirit to a coÌ„munion therw t as by the mouth of his body he feedeth vpoÌ„ the outward elements so by the force of nature hath them vnited with his nature And marueil not that faith can doth make the body brokeÌ„ and bloud shed of Christ which was now done 1500. yeares ago yet liuely truly present For it can make things spoken taught in the word though done neuer so long ago things absent to be present And therefore wheÌ„ Paul wrote to the Galat though christ long before had beene crucified and was ascended yet by the meanes of the word sacraments on the one side ministred amongst theÌ„ and of their faith on the other side he saith that Christ was eueÌ„ crucified amoÌ„gst theÌ„ Gal. 3. wherein as Chrysostom noteth vpoÌ„ that place his meaning was to shew the streÌ„gth of faith which is able to see things though far away that by the eies of faith Christs death was more clearly perfectly seene then it was of many that were present at it saw all that was done You seeme in this your doctrine and for the defence thereof to be great aduancers of Gods omnipotencie But in Christes time I pray you tell me whither they that beleeued that Christ could fulfill their desire though absent or they that thought he must be locally present or els it would not be had the greater faith in his omnipotencie I am sure you will say the faith of the former was the stronger and that they therein shewed themselues better perswaded of Christes almightinesse then the later for the euidence of the matter will enforce you to confesse thus much Then to applie this to this present matter the thing that both you and wee desire is truely to bee fedde with the bodie and bloud of Christ to eternall life whither then doe wee or you indeede beleeue his omnipotencie better we that say and beleeue that he can and doeth feede vs herewith and vnite vs and himselfe together in the vse of this sacrament hee tarrying still in heauen according to the Scriptures or you that imagine that hee cannot doe it vnlesse hee creepe into your mouthes vnder the formes of bread and wine Nay whatsoeuer you talke of his omnipotencie this argueth that your faith is too too weake therein in that you must haue such a reall presence of him as you imagine or else you thinke it will not serue your turne You will graunt that distance of place betwixt heade and feet betwixt man and wife father and sonne breaketh not nor hindreth the vnion that nature hath made betweene them what weaknes of faith then were it to thinke that Christ our head our husbaÌ„d our father must be locally conioined with vs or els the vnion betwixt him and vs cannot be perfected Assure your selues if beeing at this table you will secke him by faith where hee is in heauen and not as you doe in the formes of bread and wine whereunto only your owne fansie hath tied him by your faith you shall so reach and apprehend him and hee by his spirit will so embrace you that there was neuer head more surely by vienes sinewes arteries and other helps of nature tied vnto the inferiour parts nor husband to wife nor father to sonne more fast and surely linked and knit by the bonds of naturall vnion then he will vnite himselfe vnto you For the defence of your reall presence and for the auoiding of many absurdities concerning Christs manhoode that thereby you are fallen into you talke much of the state of Christes glorified body But alas doe you not see that whatsoeuer you talke thereof is quite besides the purpose For this is not a Sacrament of his glorified bodie but of his crucified bodie not of the coniunction of his bodie and bloud but of the separation of the one from the other and therefore Christ in the institution called not bread and wine simply his bodie and bloud but his bodie broken and bloud shed and gaue the bread a sacrament of the one and the wine a part from the bread a Sacrament of the other Whereupon it is euident that here we haue to doe with his passible body with his bodie broken his bloud shed vpon the crosse and not with the state of his glorified and impassible body and therefore vnlesse
your doctrine herein then he doth And you know that he lyued 400. yeares after Christ and more In lyke sort your doctrine of iustyficatiō in part by mans owne merits and satisfactions howsoeuer of ancient tyme the scribes and pharises troubled the Apostolicke Churches with the lyke doctrine yet was it a doctrine abhorred of the Church of Christ as blasphemous against the omnisufficient merits satisfaction of Christ Iesus our Lord sauiour ours of iustification freely and fully soly and wholy by fayth onely in Christ allowed and receiued as sound trueth and doctrine in that poynt not onely in the Apostles tymes as it appears Ro. 3. Gal. 2. 5. but also for many 100. years after euen vnto very late dayes For proofe wherof let any man read Origē vpon the 3. 6. of the Romās Ambrose vpon the 3 of the Romās also Hierom in his booke against the Pelagiās vpon the 4 to the Romās vpon the first and 2. to the Gala. Aug. de fide operibus ca. 22. vpon the 88 Psa and in his 22 Chap. of his Manuell and Hilary in his 8 Canon vpon Mathew See also Basils 51. hom de humilitate Paulinus 58. Epistle to Saint August amongst Augustines Epistles Chrysostome vpon the third to the Romans Theodoret vpon the same Chapter Gregory Nazianzens twenty two oration and Ruffinus his exposition of the Creed you shal not onely finde al these fathers in al these places as flatly to teach free ful iustificatiō saluatiō to cōe by faith in Christ alone wtout our works at al cōcurring as any helping cause therunto as any of vs now doe but also further I can doe assure you that who so wil vouchsafe to take the paines to read Bernards 23 61 and 62 Sermons of the Canticles his Sermon the 15 of the Psalme Qui habitat and his seuenty seuen Epistle he shal finde that he though he were aboue 1100 years after Christ was of the same minde For in these places he plainly confesses that he for his saluation rested onely vpon the merits of Christ and not vpon his owne at all counting mans merite to bee nothing else but to trust onely in Christ and in Gods mercy withall plainly testifiyng that he hoped to haue his solâ fide by faith onely in Christ Iesus Yea your owne Thomas Aquine confessed with vs that we are iustified by fayth instrumentally and that no vertue inherent in vs can be of the forme or essence of our iustificatiō Rom. 4 Ephesians 2 and in sundry other places of his commentaries vpon Pauls Epistles And Sadolet vpon the Epistle to the Romans acknowledged doubtles forced therunto by the power of this trueth that Abraham attulit tantùm fidem non sua opera that Abraham brought onely faith not his owne works againe he saieth quātum quisque affert de suâ iustitiâ tantum detrahit de diuinâ beneficentiâ that is how much in this respect a man bringeth of his owne righteousnesse so much he pulleth from Gods bountifulnesse How far likewise the strength of this trueth conquered your great Champion Piggius with griefe Ruard Tapper and others of your side haue noted writē against him for it For in the controuersie of iustificatiō fol. 61. he in playn tearms with vs cōfesses si formaliter propriè loquamur nec fide nec charitate nostrâ iustificamur'sed vnâ Dei in Christo iustitiâ vnâ Christi nobis cōmunicatâ iustitia that is if we speak formally properly we are iustified neither by faith nor by our charity but by the only righteousnes of God in Christ by the onely righteousnes of Christ cōmunicated vnto vs. And hauing with vs before in the controuersie proued confessed fol. 46. y al men euen the most righteous if they should be iudged of God or esteemed according to their own righteousnes by merit and desert they were to be accursed and condemned not onely for the imperfection of our best righteousnes but also for playne vnrighteousnes to be foūd in the best he proceeds concluds fol. 47. that our righteousnes hope of saluatiō with God cōsisteth in the free forgiuenes of our sins in Christ in that the perfect righteousnes of Christ is imputed vnto vs hauing cōmuniō with him And to make his meaning more plain that he meaneth not by the righteousnes of God or Christ any inherēt righteousnes of ours wrought in vs that beleeue by the spirit of Christ as our late Iesuites doe but the righteousnes that was is inherent in Christ he saieth that the righteousnes of Christ wherof he would be vnderstood in this case to speak is his obediēce whereby he fulfilled his fathers wil in al things and he expounds or declares the nature of the faith wherof the Apostle speaketh Rom. 3. saying We are iustified freely by his grace by the redemptiō that is in Christ Iesus whō he hath appointed to be our attonement maker by his bloud to bee fiduciā cōfidentiā in sanguine eius fol. 48. to be a trust and confidence in his bloud thereby alone to be saued so stil aduouching fol. 49. his onely righteousnes imputed vnto vs to be the whereby we shal stand be accoūted righteous before God and him therefore to be vnicū solidū the alone soūd foūdatiō of our saluation To conclude therefore this poynt I say with Iunilius Aphricanus who liued Anno. 440. lib. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 si quis in Christū crediderit remissis peccatis potest per solam fidem seruari that is if any beleeue in Christ his sinnes being forgiuen him he may by fayth alone be saued and with Augustine vpon the 31. Psalm si vis esse alienus a gratia iacta merita tua if thou wilt be voide of grace thē boast of thy merits Your doctrine of auricular confessiō of praying to Saints for the dead I haue at large in my answere to your thirty seuen Chapter shewed to be but new doctrines and of far later stampe then you pretend and in like maner elsewhere I haue shewed diuers other points of your religion to be in this aunswere of mine And I thinke you are not ignoraunt that that worthy bishop bishop Iewel here in England bishop of Salisbury hath most cōfidently protested that for 600. years after Christ you haue no sound groūd for 25. articles whereof the most of them are about your masse whereof you glory most which protestation or chalenge of his he hath hitherto defended sufficiently against all your obiections to the contrary And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge to the contrary so much of your religion as we count it popish for is and will proue when you haue done what you can but as the tares Math. 13 that were by Sathan subtly and secretly sowen in the Lords field long after the good seed was sowen And yet we labouring onely according to our callinges and that knowledge that God hath giuen vs
these more certaine rules helps to finde out the true sence first that the true Grāmaticall sence of the words and speech vsed by the holy ghost bee soundly and rightly vnderstoode by sound knowledge of Grammer Rhetoricke for the natiue signification of the words and vse of the phrase whereunto much helpeth conference of translation with translation of all transtations if neede be with the originall tongues Secondly that diligent consideration be had of the circumstances of the text in hand as namely what is the matter scope thereof vpon what occasion it was vttered who vttered it to whom where when Thirdly that it be taken in such a sence as will agree best with these circumstances and stand well with all other places of scripture And lastly that no sence be admitted but that which will stand with the sound proportion and summe of Christian faith and good maners taught vs plainely elsewhere in the scriptures By these rules we doubt not but to iustifie approue that to be the true sence of the scriptures which we take them in either for the confirmation of the trueth which we holde or for the confutation of the errours which you defend And such rules they are as the ancient fathers in defending the ancient Catholique faith against heretiques haue alwaies vsed and no other as appeareth in their workes And such they are as Augustine in his bookes of Christiā doctrine doeth prescribe as most necessary in this case to be followed as no mā can or ought to make any exception against And yet such they are as would anone discouer the ridiculous vanity of your interpretatiōs in any controuersie betwixt vs and you For example let vs try here by your interpretation of Hoc est corpus meū which to be soūd you will liue and die in By what grammer or by helpe of what tongue or translation shall the word Est is be all one with transubstantiatur in is transubstantiated into Sure I am in no language nor in anie Dictionarie shall you euer finde the verbe Substātiue takē in that sense Secondly the matter in hand when those words were vttered was a sacrament Christ spake them to his Apostles at his last supper to the ende to institute a sacrament to continue a duetifull remembrance of his death vntill his second comming What reason is there then to the contrarie but that this speech should be taken as the like speech alwaies els hath beene and yet is in other Sacramentes Where Est is neuer taken coupling the signe and the thing signed togither whereof a Sacrament consisteth as you doe here for It is turned into but for signifieth which standeth also well with the nature of a Sacrament whereas yours ouerthroweth the nature thereof in so annihilating or transubstantiating of the signe that you leaue no signe to beare any analogie of the thing resembled which is the ground of such Sacramentall phrases Thirdly your sence agreeth not with the rest of the scriptures not onely in that in the whole bodie of the Scriptures you cannot finde Est Is placed as it is here betwixt two thinges of diuerse kindes as breade and body be taken in your sence and yet in such propositious you finde it vsually taken for it signifieth or representeth but also in that the scripture for all that speech calleth it bread still euen whiles it is in eating 1. Corin. 10. 11. cap. and expoundeth the eating thereof to bee a communion or partaking with or of the body of Christ and that spirituall not by corporall cōiunction 1. Cor. 10. Lastly your interpretation for the bringing in establishing of a corporall reall eating of Christ with the mouth of the bodie which is a thing neuer taught vs in the word but such a kinde of feeding on him as you your selues confesse Iudas and such may atteine vnto and be neuer the better shaketh yea subuerteth al those articles that concerne Christs true manhoode making him to haue euen for that needles presence sake a body without any of the essential and inseparable properties of a body yea at one selfesame time to haue a body visible sensible and locall in heauen yet inuisible insensible and without dimentions of place in earth Besides it is against good maners which forbiddeth eating of mans flesh and drinking of his bloud either openly or secretly couered vnder or in another thing And truely Auerroes had some reason of all men in the world to thinke such Christians as you the most sauage and foolish that first would fal downe worship a peece of bread for your God whē you haue so done eate him vp and deuour him Howsoeuer you please your selues in this interpretation and in your imagination grounded thereupon I am fully perswaded that this your multitude of images and idols are two of the principall causes whereby you haue hardened the hearts both of the Turkes and Iewes against Christiā Religion And as I haue read some of them haue to some of your fellowes being in hand to perswade them to turne frō their Religion to yours yeelded these two reasons why they thought yours worse then their owne and consequently as sufficient cause why they would not yeelde to yours Now if I should but barely recite a number of other your interpretations and collections of the scripture which yet with you go for very sound and Catholique interpretations collections I am sure it were sufficient to make euery reader thereof that hath anie witte or discrecion left him to thinke that there were neuer heretiques in the world that haue more fondly vainely interpreted the scriptures then you For example let the reader marke these for a tast God made two great lights the sunne the moone that is the Pope the Emperour therefore as many degrees as the moone is inferiour to the sonne is the Emperour inferiour to the Pope Innocēt de Maioritate obediēt Glossa Ibid. Peter saied he had two swords that is the tēporall spirituall sword therfore the Pope hath both powers Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the councell of Trent blusheth not to apply to the Pope these words The Pope the light is come vnto the world men loue darknes more then light Euery one the euill doeth hateth the light commeth not to the light least his deedes be reproued Yea Paulus Aemilius in his 7. booke testifieth that the Pope suffred the Legates of Cicilia being prostrate before him to say vnto him Qui tollis peccata mundi Thou which takest away the sins of the world haue mercy vpon vs Thou which takest away the sins of the world graūt vs peace thus blasphemously applying that to the Pope which belongeth to Christ But you will say these were but the popes flatterers that made these expositiōs applications What then they were made vttered wtout checke yea to the liking of the Pope And a picture once
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
done so likewise therein your fault is double For first in so saying you tearme the Religion for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died false which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be and secondly in so saying you would seeme to make your Reader beleeue that amongst those whom you call Lutherans some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion wherein they differ from their brethren whom you call Caluinists and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities which is more also then you can proue I am fully perswaded The XXXIII Chapter SOme of your godly sect to a If you had meant to deale plainely you should haue named the man the place where any of vs do thus childishly reasoÌ„ verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians that is to saie how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they doe no wrong to no man that they doe neither robbe nor steale but that they are content with that that God hath sent them that they are very charitable to the poore then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie that one shall know the tree by the fruit b â—ndeede we may truely say howsoeuer some that professe our religion either through the coÌ„mon frailty of man or hypocrisie haue too too little of this fruit growing of theÌ„ that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion they should bear this sweet pleasant fruit abundaÌ„tly we ought to confesse saie they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to saie their Religion is good seeing that by the grace of God it doeth produce such sweet pleasant fruite I answere you first to this that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules but that that most commonly doeth happen as when he saieth that * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh would you affirme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees wheÌ„ he saied * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes but their hearts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrary to the other if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied that is to saie that manie times a man doeth vtter that that is in his heart as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines and so it is of all other sinnes But with all this a man may not affirme truely that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts whose mouthes are full of Gods word * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the Deuill in their hearts * John 18. We haue a lawe saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses he ought to die The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes And therefore you see manie times that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour when he saieth that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree For manie times naturally the fruit is good although the tree be worth nothing c The heatheÌ„ Philosophers liues howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines they caÌ„not be said to be holy good indeed because their workes were without faith lacked the form of good workes as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues will be confouÌ„ded with the example of those men that knew not God Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their Religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie the truth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the second the trees are good being grafted vpoÌ„ the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke The XXXIII Chapter IN this Chapter you saie that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie that our vocation is of God by the holines of life found amongst vs because Christ hath saied The tree is knowen by his fruit and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite Mat. 7.17 Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion the trueth is though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered we take comfort in their patience and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred in some sort we reioice therof also yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these For we know there may be hath bene great shew of patieÌ„ce in such as haue died for heresie and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it For both amongst the professours of sound Religion we know there hath alwaies beene are and will be some lewd liuers and also amongst those of a false Religion thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition there hath beene found and may be still a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers readers to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false by searching the Scriptures and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters Howbeit seing you could aforde so much needeles paines to disgrace what you could the profession of the trueth I will bee contented to take so much paines as to weigh what you haue saied and giue you such answere as you deserue for the maintenance of the credit thereof In this Chapter first you would proue by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh that it is no more generall theÌ„ that For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed that notwithstanding that saying of Christ man oftentimes speaketh otherwise then it is in his heart you conclude euen so is it many times naturally the fruite is good when the tree is naught as in the good liues of many heathen
hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holie ghost at his baptisme so long he doeth not sinne vnto eternall death d Yea the Apostle to the great comfort of them that are once truely regenerat teacheth in these places that such by the power of that grace shall be so preserued that they shall neuer sin as the vnregeneraâ— do with their whole man vnto death for the generatioÌ„ of God that is to saie the grace receiued by this holy sacrament doeth so defend him that the Deuill cannot persecute him to death being not able to preuaile against him and as long as this good seede which is the word of God doeth dwell in him he cannot sinne and if he did sinne the seed would no loÌ„ger remain in him The holie ghost saith * Sap. 1. the wisemaÌ„ shall refuse the hypocrite and dissembler and shall depart from the vaine and crafty cogitations and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwell togither nor we ought not thinke S. Iohns wordes strange in that he saieth that he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for it is as much to say as that one can not serue two masters and that he that serueth God can not serue the Deuill For. S. Paul saieth * 1. Cor. 10. You cannot assist at the table of God and of the Deuill altogether for what communication is there betweene iustice and iniquity or betweene Iesus Christ and Belial And hee that doeth loue this world declareth himselfe an enemie vnto God And a little before he had saied he that doeth commit sinne is the sonne of the Deuill the which doeth not affirme that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God if he repent and doe penance but in the meane while a If this assertion be true â—â—en as often as the regenerate either actually sinneth or hath but a minde to sinne he is not the childe of God I would gladly know theÌ„ h w often the authour hath coÌ„tinued a moreâ—h the child of God togither or any man else he that is in actuall sinne or hath a minde to doe euill is as then not the sonne of God but the sonne of the Deuill The good tree doeth not beare ill fruite for although the fruit doe rot or perish vpon the tree that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree but of the wormes birdes or of some other kinde of vermine and therefore when they say that by the fruit we shall knowe the tree and by the workes the faith this ought to be vnderstood when the fruite doeth ripe in season and that it hath the naturall humour and property of the tree And in a man that he haue the influeÌ„ce of the true faith not otherwise for euen as the rotten fruit hanging vpon the tree doeth digresse nothing from the good stocke euen so the ill workes of vs that are Christians ought not to staine our holy and Catholique religion b Thus we also answere the obiection that you make against our religion froÌ„ the lewd liues that you see in some which seeme to be of our profession It is a good defence for you you thinke why should you not graunt â— then so to be to vs For the corruption of our ill fruites coÌ„meth of our selues and not of our religion the which doeth defende vs from doing that we doe I meane to sweare to blaspheme to commit adulterie to doe anie man wrong or to offend God anie waie He that doeth desire then by the fruit to know whither the tree of our Religion bee good hee ought not to bende his eies to looke vpon the rotten fruit as if that were sufficient to disproue the goodnesse of the tree but let him looke vpon the good fruites c You shall finde that you farre oueâ—shot your se fe in your reckoning when you compare indeed their religion exp essed in their writiâ—gs with yours such are all the Doctours aswell of the Greeke as Latin church so manie good Emperours and vertuous Kinges Princes Dukes and Earles which haue raigned in France Spaine Germany and England and ouer all the worlde and haue died in the faith leauing their workes to beare witnes of their good fruites d Many Kings Quâ—enes Nobles and others of our religion haue done these things also The which haue builded so manie faire hospitals to helpe releeue the poore so many goodly Colledges to entertaine fatherles children at their bookes so manie foundations and workes for the common wealth and that haue builded so manie sumptuous e The first pulling of them dowâ—e here in England came euen from your Cardinals and great bishops vnder the pretence therwith to found colledges and so hauing giuen the king an example wheâ— he was disposed to follow it they easily consented indeed the abhominaâ—ions therin committed was their ouerthrow Abbeies and houses of Religion the which you with your godlie zeale haue not onely robbed and spoiled but that that is more odious you haue pulled them cleane downe to deface the memorie of our ancesters to acquite all these which are notable monuments you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doe which are much like vnto the gaines of those that vse to cog at dise for although they win much it is neuer seene or like the Iewes which to colour their horrible crueltie in putting our sauiour vniustly to death they weÌ„t bought with the monie that they gaue to Iudas a field to bury the dead k As deepe and grounded papists were lickorish of Abbey lands as any other and as greedily and securely they enioy them still amongst vs. Cardinall Woolsey and the Bishop of Rochester your great Martyr first began that course here And so you hauing robbed spoiled froÌ„ the religious houses and Abbeies more then you are able to restore you thinke to acquite it al with giuing a little to the poore No no these deuises are but vaine if by the fruit the tree be knowen as Christ saieth let them that haue anie iudgement looke vpon the fruit of our trees then iudge whither they be good or no. The XXXIIII Chapter PArtly in the former Chapter but more plainly in this you shew that you vnderstand by the trees that Christ spake of good Religion and bad But if you view the place you will at least I am sure you should rather thereby vnderstaÌ„d the persons of men effectually called as I haue saied or not called at all or at least yet vneffectually called that sound religion is one of the principall fruits that he meant should grow vpoÌ„ the former to discerne him from the later For his scope was not there to teach vs how to discerne religions but how to discerne the children of God from the children of sathan And thus it will proue that the sence of this prouerbe will not proue hard at all to vs to digest but to you who what shew soeuer you caÌ„ make with
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that