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A15978 [A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594. 1575 (1575) STC 274; ESTC S112318 85,201 271

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or some other kynde of wilde fruite the tree can beare no other but Crabbes or wyldinges Euen so we Chrystian persons who are the trees of God planted by the pleasaunt fountayne of his grace and purged with the holy water of Baptisme to beare fruite at our season so that we take euer to prospet withall the dewe of his grace that planted vs I meane the fayth of our Sauiour Iesus Christe so long we beare good fruite as it is sayd before alleaging the 3. of S. Iohn yll vnderstoode by Iouinian He that is borne of God doth not sinne for the generation of God doth preserue him the enimy of our health shal not touche him And in the sayde Chapter he sayth agayne All men or euery man that is borne of God doth not sinne for the seede of God is in him and he can not sinne because he is borne of god By this it is not ment that Baptisme the which he doth cal the beeing borne of God doth take away from man the power or libertie to do euyl for if he wyl degenerat from the grace that he hath receaued by the Sacrament of regeneration that in steede of growing graft vpon the stocke of the loue of God which is the true life that he will fructifie towards his death and destruction in this case he is no more the sonne of God for as Christe sayth If ye be the children of Abraham do the works of Abraham But as he doth cōtinue and hath this good wyl which was taught by the Angel vnto the Shepheards that he doth continue hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holy ghost at his baptisme so long he doth not sinne vnto eternal death for the generation of God that is to say the grace receyued by this holy Sacrament doth so defend him that the diuel can not persecute him to death being not able to preuayle agaynst him and as long as this good seede which is the word of god doth dwel in him he cannot sinne and if he did sinne the sede would no longer remaine in him The holy ghost sayth The wise man shal refuse the hypocrite and dissembler and shal depart from the vayne and craftie cogitations and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwel togeather nor we oughte not thinke S. Iohns wordes straunge in that he sayth That he that is borne of God doth not sin for it is as much to say as that one can not serue two masters and that he that serueth god can not serue the diuel For S. Paul sayth You can not assist at the Table of god and of the diuel altogether for what communication is there betweene Iustice and Iniquitie or betweene Iesus Christ Belial And he that doth loue this world declareth him selfe an enemy vnto god And a little before he had sayd He that doth commit sinne is the sonne of the deuil the which doeth not affyrme that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God if he repent and do penaunce but in the meane while he that is in actuall sin or hath a minde to doo euil is as then not the sonne of God but the sonne of the deuill The good tree doeth not beare yll fruite for although the fruit doo rot or perishe vpon the tree that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree but of the wormes byrdes or of some other kinde of vermine therefore when they saye that by the fruite we shall knowe the tree and by the workes the faith this ought to be vnderstood when the fruite doth ripe in season that it hath the naturall humour and propertie of the tree And in a man that he haue the influence of the true fayth and not otherwise for euen as the rotten fruite hanging vppon the tree doth not digresse nothing from the good Stocke euen so the yil workes of vs that are Christians ought not to stayne our holy and Catholike religion For the corruption of our yll fruites commeth of our selues and not of our religion the whiche doth defende vs from doing that we do I meane to sweare to blaspheme to commit adultery to doo anye man wronge or to offende God any way He that doeth desyre then by the fruit to knowe whether the tree of our religion be good he ought not to bende his eyes to looke vpon the rotten fruite as if that were sufficient to proue the goodnes of the tree but let him looke vppon the good fruites Suche are all the Doctours aswell of the Greeke as Latine Churche so manye good Emperours and vertuous Kinges Princes Dukes and erles which haue reigned in France Spayne Germany and Englande and ouer all the worlde and haue dyed in the fayth leauing their workes to bear witnes of their good fruites The which haue buylded so many fayre hospitals to helpe and releue the poore so many goodly Colleges to enterteyne fatherles children at their bookes so many foundations workes for the common wealth and that haue buylded so manye sumptuous Abbeys and houses of Religion the whiche you with your godly zeale haue not only robbed spoyled but that that is more odious you haue pulled thē cleane down to deface the memory of our Auncesters and to acquite al these which are notable monumentes you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doo which are much like vnto the gaynes of those that vse to cogge at dise for although they winne much it is neuer seene or like the Iewes whiche to color their horrible cruelty in putting our Sauiour vniustly to death they went and bought with the money that they gaue to Iudas a field to bury the dead And so you hauing robbed spoyled from the religious houses and Abbeyes more then you are able to restore you thinke to acquite it all with geuing a litle to the poore No no these deuises are but vaine yf by the fruite the tree be knowen as Christe sayth let them that haue any iudgement looke vpon the fruit of our trees and then iudge whether they be good or no. ¶ The .36 Chapter NOwe seing that you haue visited our gardein If a man may be so bolde I pray lend vs the keyes that we maye in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religiō Reade all the histories writtē frō the Passion of Christe to our dayes and you shall fynd that all those sects that haue left our Romane Churche haue done more mischiese in one yere being seperated from the said Church then they did in an hundred yeres before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholike church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late dayes I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose folowers you doo affyrm your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs you haue placed Iohn Hus as the fyrste Martyr of your auncient Church who was
the best of the worlde yea whollye without spot or sinne as some of you doo affyrme yet were not they sufficient to moue vs to chaunge our religion nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs for although it be so that our Sauiour Christe was as iust and as innocent as any can be hath beene or euer shal be yet neyther his holy life nor the Scriptures that he did alleage to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophetes nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist all these thinges together wer not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes and to receaue the Gospell without the testimonie of the great miracles that he did in their presence He doeth confesse this plainely where he sayth If I had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer any had done they should haue no sin This sentence is moste notable and woorthy to be grauen in the heartes of all Catholikes to assure their consciences which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinions For although it were so that you my masters were the honestest men of the worlde sent from God to teache and preache a true doctrine yet shoulde we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission euen as the Iewes had bene for not receuing of our Sauiour Christe if he had not done so manye miracles For we knowe no cause why you shoulde be more priuileged then Christe And seing that you haue shewed nothing to verifye it this waye and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles and that your liues are at the least as yll as ours what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receaue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discordes and diuisions that one maye easilye gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell the worde of the Lorde and as S. Augustine sayde vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio I say no more at this time but that I beseeche God to drawe you as nere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire youre mindes to turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken FINIS ¶ An offer made by a Catholike to a learned Protestant wherein shall appere the difference betwixte the open knowen Churche of the Catholikes from the hidde and vnknowen congregation of the Protestants FIrste seeing it cannot be denyed that our Sauiour Christe before his departure and Ascension did commit the charge and gouernment of his Churche the testimonie of his word the truth of his Gospell the ministration of his Sacramentes to his Apostles and Disciples that not only for them selues but to their successors Bishops and priests to none other saying onely vnto them Euntes docete omnes gentes Goe ye and teache all people and nations of the worlde baptising them in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghoste teaching them to obserue and keepe all thinges which I haue commaunded you Further Thapostle S Paule being at Miletum in executing of his charge and gouernment gaue this admonition to the bishops and priestes there assembled before him saying Attendite vobis et vniuerso gregi Take hede vnto your selues and vnto the whole flocke of Christe in the which the holy ghoste hath ordeyned you bishops Regere ecclesiam dei to gouerne the church of God. And in the thirtenth Chapiter of his Epistle to the Hebrews he doth commaunde al other sortes of men without exception of Emperours kinges Queenes princes to obey their bisshops and priestes saying Obedite Praepositis vestris et subiacete eis ipsi enim peruigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri Obey your Prelates and doo what they appoynt you for they doo watche as men that shall render accoumptes for your soules Seeing that by the testimonies before alleaged it can not be denyed but that the charge and gouernment of Christe his churche the preaching of his doctrine the administration of his Sacraments was by him committed to his Apostles disciples and to all Bishops and priestes as Successors of them to plant christian fayth and religion in his catholike churche vniuersally throughout all nations coastes and quarters of the worlde Seeing this is by the playnnes of the sayde Testimonyes of suche an vndoubted truth that it cannot be denyed Nowe let the learned Protestant affyrming princes to be the supreme heades of the Church eyther shewe by some suche other like playne testimonyes of the scriptures that our Sauiour Christe did committe the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Churche to Emperours kinges Queenes and princes to plant christian fayth religion in the same or that anye one of Christe his Apostles or disciples did conuert any people lande or countrey from their Idolatry Ethnike kinde of liuing to Christian fayth religion by preaching the doctrine of the Protestantes as of onely fayth to iustifye the contempt of good workes and that they be all vncleane in the sight of God the denyall of free will of the reall presence of Christes bodye in the holy Eucharist of the sacrifice of the moste blessed Masse the abolishing of Christe his Sacramentes of all grace and goodnes by them cōferred vnto vs then I shal yeelde and recant and not before Seconde Christe his Catholike Churche being on this wise planted by Thapostles disciples of Christe by Bishops and priests the successors of them had at all times a special care and regarde not onelye of preaching Gods worde but also of the preseruation of the same worde and Gospel by writing of the sacred Bible and holy Scriptures and did discerne iudge them from all other writinges prophane or authentique of all sortes What Churche hath had from time to time the custody of the sacred scriptures and moste safely hath preserued them for the necessary foode of Gods people and from the corruption of the aduersaries aswel Iewes and Gentiles as schismatikes and heretikes of all sortes but onely the common knowen Catholike Church of Christ When therefore the learned Protestantes shal be able to bring proufe to the contrarye that their priuate conuenticles and congregations were the firste bringers forth of this sacred Bible and the worde of God written the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles heretikes and schismatikes Then I will as I saide before reuolte and recant Thirde shew me good reason why ye protestants doo beleeue our catholike churche enfourming and telling you this to be the word of God written the true Bible and sacred Scriptures and doo refuse to credite her in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture she being
saye that we oughte to folowe those that conforme them selues moste vnto the pure worde of God that will come to one ende for if I doo demaunde of you how we shall know whiche do conforme theym selues moste vnto the truthe you aunswere me that it must be done by the grace of the holye Ghoste sent by the Lorde yf with a true hearte he is inuocated of the faythfull Seeing you knowe so well the way how to agree together howe comes it to passe that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeres which are the precinctes of the time since your auncient Churche beganne seeing that you haue assembled so manye times together why haue ye not prayed vnto the Lorde to sende the spirite of truth to make peace amongst his Apostles I thinke that you are not so vnshamfaste that you will denye the quarels and debates that haue risen amonge you I doo not saye in light wordes but in great battailes in rayling processes in horrible excommunications sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists and from the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans as I haue set foorth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament and therefore ye are greatlye ouerseene that ye haue not inuocated the spirite of the Lorde as Caluin hath taught you in his Cathechisme to the ende that you may come to some accorde ¶ The .29 Chapter NOwe to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation we were minded to forsake our Catholike religion the iniurious disputations that you vse amonge your selues were sufficient to make vs to suspende oure iudgement without leaning to anye of both parties vntill that we coulde see you more resolute in youre opinions being the hardest matter the knowing in what countrey the residence shoulde be kepte for that matter You haue geuē absolute sentence saying that the Catholike Churche hath erred euen from the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a thirde place called Purgatorye You shoulde me thinke at the least allowe a thirde place although it be not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they knowe nowe neither what is their faith nor of what religion they should be for whē they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans whē they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists and at the last they do not know which side in deede is the truest being both false and therfore I think it were good that a sequestration were made that neyther God nor the Deuill might haue parte of their soules till there were a farther inquirye made of suche a number of sects and that some good and honest arbitratour might geue iudgement as concerning which partie hath moste right And in the meane while I beseeche God to open so the eyes of the people that they maye see both youre errours and their owne and that through the aboundaunce of their sinnes he permit them not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doo seeke to drawe them with so manye contrary Gospels ¶ The .30 Chapter IT doth appere well by that that I haue saide howe the assuraunce of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande forasmuche as you doo seeke particulerly a contrary meaning euery one to his owne perticuler sense being not this the waye that an extraordinarye minister sent from God shoulde vse to confyrme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretikes as I haue alreadye sayde There is a verye great difference betweene setting foorth the Scripture to refourme ones religion to reforme ones conditions for when there is any questiō of the refourming of ones maners there is no neede to regarde whether the doctrine be newe or olde for as the Apostle sayth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to be talked of as touching ones fayth the Catholike ought greatlye to beware of singuler interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious He ought to folowe the sentence that is holden and taught by the auncient Catholike Churche without making any accompt of all these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to anye Mason although his cunning be but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can fynde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seeks to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleage to me some place or figure of the Sceipture not altogether to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I know his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me chaunge my naughtie life and to leaue my yll conditions But when he shall come to touche my fayth and to perswade me from that that all my auncetours did euer holde frō that that the Catholike Churche deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the auncient doctours teache and affyrme In the repayre of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verye best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you say that they maye all erre I praye remember the olde prouerbe that saith He is a foole that thinkes that he onely is wise and all the other fooles and that it is more agreable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as thei say commonly two eyes see more then one and fowre more then two ¶ The .31 Chapter OVr Sauiour Christe did approue his vocation after another sort thē you doo yours Searche saith he the Scriptures for they beare witnes of me he doth not say that they ar Iudges as you saye for you will haue none other arbitrator but the word of god You knowe that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge yet the scriptures of the old Testament doo conteine not only the veritie of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therwithall the very sufficient probation of his person to teache vs the true worde of God to ouerthrow destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainlye seene by those that list to looke vppon the oracles of the olde patriarchs and Prophetes It is written in the third of Genesis that God saide vnto the woman that her seede shoulde breake downe the serpents head And likewise in the said booke ther is mentiō made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the. 15. and. 53. Chapters of Esay in the. 2. Psalme Dauid doth talke of it And in like maner Daniell Moyses Aaron with al the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very