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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06697	A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity.	R. M., student in divinity.	1609 (1609)	STC 17149; ESTC S103258	25,816	46

A Profitable Dialogue for a peruerted Papist OR A little Labour of a Lay man tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist namely by laying open vnto him his owne errour in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre Composed in Dialogue maner as it were betweene a simple Lay man and certayne graue Diuines and published onely for the benefit of the Lay Papist Written by R. M. Gent. and Student in Diuinity Brethren be not children in vnderstanding 1. Cor. 14. 20. If God be on our side who can be against vs Rom. 8. 31. Seeke and ye shall finde Math. 7. 7. LONDON Printed by Simon Stafford dwelling in the Cloth-fayre neere the signe of the red Lion 1609. The Contents of this Booke THis small Treatise is diuided into two parts 1 THe first part contaynes certayne proofs frō Antiquity that it is onely the society of the faithfull the holy Catholike Church that can not finally erre and that the visible Church of Rome or where else soeuer may erre And therefore not lawfull for any one Bishop on earth to be admitted vniuersall Bishop or supreme head of the vniuersall Church 2 THe second part confirmes the former proofes by manifest proofes also from Antiquity that the visible Church of Rome doth erre in a principall poynt of Christian doctrine as namely touching the Sacrament of the blessed Body and Blood of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ The Authour to the learned Reader GOod Reader my selfe being a Lay man and altogether vnskilfull in Artes I am therefore to entreat of thee being a scholer that thou wilt not so much regard the maner and forme of this my weake worke as the matter and substance it selfe which is no other thing in effect but certaine manifest proofes from Antiquity that the Church of Rome doth erre proued by such ancient witnesses as the Papists themselues allow for lawfull and so forcible are those witnesses against those Romish aduersaries that if hereafter any of them shall go about to reply against this Treatise ensuing they shall but thereby the more lay open their owne follies and shame in striuing against the inuincible streame for great is the Trueth and it will preuayle yea what can more confound the learned aduersary or as S. Paul sayth * Tit. ● 10. 11. condemne him to erre in his owne iudgement then to find himselfe altogether vnable without absurd cauelling and vndirect dealing to resist the weakenesse of a simple Lay man fighting in Trueths behalfe for notwithstanding my Sixe demaunds to the learned Papists be the simplest booke that euer hitherto hath bene brought foorth against them yet are they not able to reply directly against it without absurdity Whereupō I doubt they will seeme to skorne to vouchsafe it an answere But here by the way I acknowledge and that sincerely that it is vnmeete for any Lay man although neuer so great a scholer to take to himselfe the office of ministery in the Church or to clime vp to the Pulpit before he be lawfully called to that holy and reuerend function But for Lay men decently to instruct and admonish one another it is no nouelty but a thing allowable in the Church many yeeres since as witnesseth S. Hierome who sayth playnely * Vpon the Ep●stle to the Colo. Chap. 3. that the Apostle Paul doth teach that Lay men ought to haue the Scriptures abundantly and to instruct and admonish one another c. But if it be tolerable for Lay men to admonish one another it followes then because all are not scholers that some of them may be also tolerated to write simply and playnely and according to that maner of speach which the common vulgar sort do vsually speake who neuer speake more eloquently then when they speake trueth sincerely and playnely and then they thinke they speake very well if they be vnderstood very well But perhaps some learned Aduersary will obiect according to his vsuall maner against these proofes which I haue here cited from some of the ancient Fathers liuing in the Church aboue a thousand yeeres since that they haue bene brought forth already by diuers learned men long since answered by learned men also therfore in vaine for me being a Lay man vnlearned to cite them againe thinking that I haue but gathered them here and there out of other mens workes where they haue bene collected before and for that cause likewise from me the lesse to be regarded These things being obiected I answere True it is that the same proofes haue long since bene brought forth against the Aduersaries by thē also answered but how well or how ill they haue bin answered let that be tryed by those Christians which are of soūd iudgement for this I da●e auouch that a lawfull witnesse being brought against any mā it is no lesse then an absurd answer in that man whosoeuer to reply that the same witnesse in speaking of one thing doth thereby meane another But into the same strayte are all Heretiks brought by resisting the apparāt truth And this is a principall marke to be aymed at in this our corrupt age in which there is so much dissension and controuersie among professed Christians For if our aduersaries might be permitted to answere so absurdly and to passe from one poynt to another before some one poynt onely be throughly decided all the labour wee take to cleanse them from their infectious spots of errour would proue but labour in vayne but God be thanked the faithfull know well how to preuent the silly shiftes of Heretikes and so with little labour eyther to conuert them or confound them for commonly the Heretike may be condemned by his owne mouth his doctrine contradicting some trueth in Scripture which himselfe professeth to beleeue for where traditions and customes of men are regarded before holy Scripture there ignorance doth soone beget errour especially if diuers things called by one name be not so perfectly distinguished but that the one may be taken for the other But let the ignorant learne first touching faith A true faith which worketh by loue is one thing and a verball or vaine faith another Secondly touching iustification A iustification before God is one thing and a iustification before men another for God iustifieth according to the inward heart by the good tree true faith but man iustifieth according to the outward declaration by the fruits proceeding frō that tree * Luke 6. 43. good workes S. Paul treating of the first iustification denyes not the second for he sayth If Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but not with God c. γ Rom. 4. S. Iames treating of the second denyes not the first for he graunts Abraham beleeuing God it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse c γ Iames. 2. Thirdly touching the Church The society of the faithfull which liue by true faith and therefore hell gates not possible to preuayle against them is one thing and a

prayed for the faith of S. Peter and so consequently for the faith of all his sucessours according to the opinion of the aduersary * In their Rhemish notes vpon the 28 of S. Luke verse 31. that it should neuer fayle But if any Bishop of Rome may proue a false Christian and liue so lewdly that he may dye a Reprobate then vndoubtedly euery Bishop of Rome is not the true successour of S. Peter vnlesse a true faith may contradict in maners the things which it professeth in words for it was a true faith in S. Peter which our Lord prayed for to continue in his Church and not a vaine fayth And if it be true that the Bishop of Rome may erre as he is man but not possible as he is Pope that is to say although in person he may erre in his priuate doctrine and maners yet not possible to erre iudicially or definitiuely then could it not be preiudiciall to the Church although Antichrist himselfe were Bishop of Rome * See S. Chrisost vpon the ● to the Th●ssa and S. Barna●d in h●s 123. Epistle and Vniuersall Bishop But according to diuine reason this séemes not agréeable to trueth Gregory My sonne If this be permitted to be lawfully spoken f In his 4. Booke and 36. Epistle the honor of all Patriarchies is denied and perhaps when he pe●isheth in errour which is called vniuers●ll then no Bishop is found to haue remayned in the state of trueth c. I say therefore the vniuersall Church g In his 6. Booke and Epi●tle 24. falleth to ruine if one Vniuersall fall But farre be this vanity and foolishness● from my eares c. * A true faith doth not contradict in maners the things which it professeth in words * for which Hom. 29 in Eu●ng Tit. 1. cause it was sayd of certayn false Christiās by S. Paul * that they confessed God in words but denied him in deeds by S. Iohn * that whosoeuer sayth he knoweth ● Iohn 2. God and keepeth not his cōmaundements is a Lyar Which being so we must examine the trueth of our faith by consideration of our life for then not otherwise are we true Christians if we fulfill in works that whereof we haue made promise in words c. Lay. Would to God thy successours had bene of the same mind herein as thou and thy predecessours were for then the Church vniuersally could neuer haue bene so much diuided as it hath bene for most true it is according to thy speach that within lesse time then this 200. yéeres past hardly was there a Bishop to be foūd remayning in that sincere and pure doctrine taught in the Primitiue Church but being reuolted and departed from that sound doctrine they all from the highest to the lowest taught lyes in hypocrisie euen as Saint Paul prophested of them forbidding to marry h 1. Tim. 4 1 2 3. and commaunding to abstayne from meates lawfully to be eaten with other such like errours and deceyueable doctrines But the principall cause of such vniuersall euils thou hast playnely declared to procéede from the pride of him called vniuersall Bishop which man wée take to be no better then Antichrist himselfe for according to S. Paul i 2. Thesse 2. 4. he sits hypocritically in the Temple of God in word The seruant of seruants but in déede extolling himselfe aboue all power on earth for by vsurped authority he séekes not onely to be supreme head ouer all Bishops but ouer all Chr●stian Kings also which loftynesse was ney●her in thée nor in thy predecessours and that thou doost make most manifest not onely by these playne speaches here vttered but elsewhere also k In hi● 38. Epistle Chap. 82. with which we restfully satisfied herein And so we will conclude this first part with a few words taken frō our late Minister but now an Apos●ata Theophilus Higgons * Written since hi● re●o●t in his first Motiue Page 64. because they cōtaine a truth touching this poynt contrary to himself as thus It was a tyranny in Mezentius sayth he to bynd liuing men vnto dead carkeyses But the wisdome of God doth assure me and me also that he will not tye the lyuing body of his Church vnto the dead and putrified members thereof The end of the first part The second part treating of the Sacrament of the Blessed Body and Blood of our LORD and Sauiour Iesus Christ NOw diuine Augustine let vs go forward in that principall poynt touching the holy Sacrament let vs certaynely know thy mind whether Christ be there after a spirituall maner onely for the faithfull to eate and drinke or after a corporal and carnall maner as foode both for the worthy and vnworthy receyuer We find in holy Scripture that our Sauiour called l Iohn 6. 35. and 10. 7. and 15. 1. himselfe Bread called himselfe a Doore called himselfe a Vine These things in a spiritual sence we know to be truely and properly spoken yet according to the letter we take them figuratiuely to be spoken But wée would gladly vnderstand from thée what our Sauiour meant when he called Bread his body m Mat. 26. 26. and also what he meant when he sayd Exceptye eate n Iohn 〈…〉 the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye haue no life in you c. Whether these speaches according to the letter were figuratiue or proper Aug. My sonne Our Lord doubted not to say This is my body o Against Adamantus Chap. 12 when he gaue the signe of his Body c. p Vpon the 3. Psal Christ admitted Iudas to that Banket in which he did deliuer to his disciples the figure of his Body c. Note this also If it be a speach of commaundement eyther forbidding a mischieuous deed or a hainous fact q In his ● Booke of Christian doctrine Chap. 16. or commaunding a profitable thing or a good deed it is not figuratiue But if it seeme to cōmaund a wicked deed and a naughty fact or to forbid a profitable thing or a good deed it is figuratiue Vnlesse ye shall eate sayth he the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye shall not haue life in you c. He doth seeme to commaund a hainous or wicked deed It is a figure therefore commaunding vs to communicate with the passion of our Lord and sweetely and profitably to lay vp in memory that his flesh was crucifyed and wounded for vs c. r Vpon the 98. Psalm The words which I haue spoken vnto you sayth Christ is spirit and life s Iohn 6. 63. Vnderstand spiritually that which I haue spoken vnto you Ye shall not eate this Body which ye see neyther shall ye drinke that blood which they shall sheade that crucify me I haue commended vnto you a certayne Sacrament which being spiritually vnderstood shall giue you life c. t ●n his 2● ●reati● vpon

vnlesse they adde thereunto some matter of their owne deuising as namely by adding a condition to the holy text more then thou didst there expresse * Bellarmine in his 〈…〉 as though there were a defect in thy word by which all things are made perfit and by which at the last day they shal● iudge both the quicke and the dead But full well do thy faithfull people know by the direction of thy holy spirit that thou giuest not thy selfe for foode to any reprobate and vnworthy creature for thou sayst here most playnely that whosoeuer eateth and drinketh thy flesh and blood hath eternall life and therefore although the Sacrament thereof may be eaten and drunken both by the worthy and vnworthy receiuer as witnesseth thine Apostle Paul q 1. Cor. 11. 27. yet that blessed foode it selfe cannot so be eaten and drunken for the vertue thereof is to giue life to all that eates and drinks it and this is thy promise which can neuer be broken But most gracious Lord forasmuch as there be yet many weake people that cannot well vnderstand thée herein without adding to these thy words this word worthyly resolue them we humbly beséech thée whether it be so or not that some professed Christians may eate and drinke this sacred banket of thine euen thy selfe vnworthily and so dye in their sinnes as the vnworthy and faithlesse Iewes did notwithstanding they did eate Manna Speake so vnto them good Lord that they may both heare and vnderstand Christ My sonne Let those weake people of little faith marke well here what I say vnto them Haue not I graciously giuen you warning by my sacred word saying r Math. 16. ● and 15. 9. Take heede and beware of the leauen of the Pharises and Sadduces in vaine they worship me teaching for doctrines mens precepts Haue not I taught you by mine Apostle Paul faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God * Rom. 10. 1● Iohn 8. 4● Mark 1● 24. He that is of God heareth Gods wordes c. * Iohn 5. 39. Are ye not therfore deceiued because ye know not the Scriptures neyther the power of God * Search the Scriptures My sheepe heare my voyce and I know them Iohn 10. 27. and 12. 48. and 14. 6. Luke ●1 23. and they follow me He that refuseth me and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken it shall iudge him in the last day I am the Way the Trueth the Life No man commeth vnto the Father but by me * Iohn 6. 〈…〉 He that is not with me is against me and he that gathereth not with me scattereth but * He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me and I in him As that liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father and he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me Note well here what I say I speake not one thing and meane an other I make not my promise so absolutely and meane it but conditionally I say not he that eateth me worthily because no vnworthy creature that shall dye in his sinne can eate me And to make that most playne vnto you I say againe as I haue sayd already This is that bread which came downe from heauen not as your fathers haue eaten Manna and are dead he that eateth of this bread shall liue for euer c. Lay. For this thy playne declaration all prayse be giuen vnto thée O Lord for hereby all may discerne most clearely that thou doost not commit thy selfe to vnfaithfull creatures and to be foode for the reprobate as Iudas and such like We therefore most humbly pray thée to open the eyes of these blinde weakelings which by too much establishing the doctrines of men go about to contradict thée herein and so inspire their heartes with the grace of thy holy spirit that they may thereby discerne the onely cause of their great blindnesse But the same cause being by thy gracious help taken away they shall then clearely sée to séeke and find euen according to thy diuine direction ſ Math. ● 7. Let them sée O Lord that their Church of Rome doth yet erre and will erre still vntill shée acknowledge her owne weakenesse that she may erre But so aboundant is thy goodnesse mercy towards repentant sinners that if she would in due time repent her former errours with that vayne and presumptuous opinion touching her supposed purity in her owne doctrine generally no doubt thou wouldst not onely pardon all her erronious doctrines and superstitious cerimonies but also restore her to her first dignity and commendation and cause all her good and laudable Traditions and Customes which now in respect of her wilfull blindnesse in some poynts are little or nothing regarded by a great number to be as highly estéemed and as duely obserued as euer heretofore they haue bene for thy eternall wisedome doth more respect the good and faithfull intent of the dooer then the déed done whatsoeuer it be because whatsoeuer is not of true faith séeme it neuer so holy in the sight of man is no better then sinne in thy infallible Iudgement * Rom. 14. 23. In consideration whereof we most humbly beséech thée also to encrease in vs Protestants true and liuely faith which alwayes worketh by loue that we may be all in generall more zealous in thy seruice then hither to we haue bene for we here acknowledge before thée that knowest the secrets of all hearts who also hereafter shalt be our Iudge the knowledge without true zeale is more vnprofitable in thy sight then zeale without knowledge t Math. 21. 28. to 32. Luke 12. 47 48. Iohn 9. 41. Actes 10. 1. 10 5. Rom. ● 〈◊〉 5. 6. therefore as we professe thée in words so good Lord let vs expresse thée in workes that we may not be reckoned in the number of those foolish men that build vpon sand that is those that heare thy words and do them not u Math. ● 26. 27. We professe before thy diuine Maiesty that none can be saued but those that haue a faith working by loue x Gala. ● 6. 1. Tim. 1. ● Tit. 3. 8. Iames. 2. 20. other faiths we hold as dead and vayne in respect of Iustification but that faith onely which worketh by loue we hold to iustifie without the workes of the law euen as thine holy Apostle hath taught vs. y Rom. 3 ●8 Therefore for the great loue in thée declared vnto vs when thou didst suffer torments death for our sinnes we beséech thée swéete Iesus so to blesse the hearts of all true Christians that they may all from hencefoorth both liue and dye in peace and vnity Behold sayth thy Prophet Dauid * Psalm 1● how good how comely a thing it is brethrē to dwell euen together It is like the precious oyntment vpon the head that runneth downe vpon the beard euen vnto Aarons beard which went downe on the border of his garments and as the dew of Hermon which falleth vpon the Mountaynes of Zion for there the Lord appoynted the blessing and life for euer Let thine heauenly blessing therefore so blesse the Vniuersall Church here on earth that it may euen now without any more controuersies conclude a spirituall marriage as it were betwéene faith and workes that so wée may all both truely glorifie thée in this world also be made partakers with thée of that euerlasting felicity in the next world euen in that holy place of en●lesse ioy which from the foundations of the world hath bene prepared for thine elect z Mar● ●● 24 by thine heauenly Father our onely God and Creator to whom with thée our swéete Redéemer and the holy Ghost our sanctifier thrée persons and one euerliuing God be ascribed all prayse power honor dominion and glory both now and for euermore Amen FINIS Let no man deceiue himselfe If any man among you seeme to be wise in this world let him be a foole that he may be wise for the wisdome of this world is foolishnesse with God c. 1. Cor. 3. 18 19. Laus Deo et pax Christianis Glory be to God and peace among Christians Faults escaped In Page 5. line 23. for a principall Read the principall Page 12. line 24. for sayth he knoweth God Read sayth he knoweth God Page 24. line 5. in the mergent for Page 18. Read Page 15.