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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28837	A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1687 (1687)	Wing B3780; ESTC R23256	107,935	138

receiv'd the Gospel of St. Matthew and the Epistle to the Romans and the rest she understood them This Sense which she receiv'd with the Scripture she has kept with the Scripture and the same exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us receive the Holy Scripture he uses also to give us its true Sense All this comes from the same Principle all this is the Sequel of the same Design As then there is nothing to examin after the Church when she gives us the Holy Scripture so there is nothing to examin when she interprets it and proposes its true Sense Wherefore you see that after the Councel of Jerusalem Paul and Silas said not Examin this Decree but they taught the Church to observe what the Apostles had judg'd In this manner has the Church always proceeded I would not believe the Gospel says St. Augustin were I not mov'd by the Authority of the Catholic Church Ep. 5. Cont. Manich. And a little after Those whom I believ'd when they said to me Believe the Gospel shall I not believe when they bid me not believe Manicheus This Society of Pastors establisht by JESUS CHRIST and continu'd until now giving me the Gospel has also told me That I must detest Hereticks and evil Doctrins I believe both together and by the same Authority After this manner were Christians instructed in the primitive Times Tertull. praescrip adv haeret 18. 37. in which Hereticks were told That they were not receivable to dispute of the Scripture because without Scripture they could be shewn that Scripture is not for them that there is nothing common between them and Scripture And observe if you please That all Christian Societies except the Churches newly reform'd have kept this manner of Instructing Mr. Claude and I said That the Greek Church the Ethiopian the Armenian and others were deceiv'd indeed in believing themselves the true Church but all at least believe That there is nothing to examin after the true Church There is no other manner of teaching the Faithful If we tell them That they may understand the Holy Scripture better than all the rest of the Church together we nourish Pride we take away Docility None says it but the Churches which call themselves Reformed Every where else they say as we do That there is a true Church which must be believ'd without examining after her This is believ'd not only in the true Church but also in those which imitate the true Church The Pretended Reformed is the only Church which says it not If the true Church which soever she is says it the Pretended Reformed is not then the true Church because she says it not Let them not tell us The Ethiopian says it the Greek says it the Armenian says it the Roman says it which shall I believe If your Doubt consisted in choosing between the Roman and the Greek 't would be necessary to enter into this Examen But now 't is agreed in your Religion That the Greek Church the Ethiopian Church and the rest are in the wrong against the Roman and if they were true Churches you ought in leaving the Roman which as you say was not to have sought Communion with them They are not then the true Church No more are you For the true Church believes That we must believe without examining what the true Church teaches You teach the contrary You call your selves the true Church and you say at the same time That one must examin after you Which is to say That one may be damn'd in believing you You renounce then from that time the Advantage of the true Church You are not the true Church You must be left 'T is here the Beginning must be If any one in leaving you be tempted to unite himself to the Greek Church he shall be answer'd Mademoiselle de Duras having heard these things nothing seem'd to me capable to trouble her but the Habit contracted from her Infancy and the fear of afflicting her Mother for whom I knew she had all the Tenderness and all the Respect that such a Mother deserves I also saw she was concern'd for the Reproaches that were made her of having human Designs and especially of having delay'd the doubting of her Religion till after a Donation made her by her Mother Your own Conscience said I to her best knows in what Condition you were when this Donation was made you whether you had any Doubt and supprest it in prospect of procuring your self this Advantage I did not so much as think of it answer'd she You know well then said I to her That this Motive has not any part in what you do Continue therefore in Peace provide for your Salvation and let Men talk For this Apprehension of having human Respects imputed to you is it self a sort of human Respect and that of the most delicate and most to be fear'd She requested me to repeat in Mr. Coton's Presence what had been said through a Desire she had that he should be Instructed with her He was sent for we agreed on the Facts Mr. Coton with an extream Sweetness made me some Objections about the Doctrin I had explicated I answer'd them He told me he was not exercis'd in Dispute nor vers'd in these Matters He said true he refer'd himself to Mr. Claude I pray'd GOD to enlighten him and departed to return to my Duty After another Conference which Mademoiselle de Duras and I had at St. Germain in the Dutches of Richelieu's Apartment she told me That she believ'd her self in condition to take her Resolution within a little while and that there was nothing more to do But to pray GOD to conduct her well The Success was such as we wisht On the 22. of March I return'd to Paris to receive her Abjuration She made it in the Church of the Reverend Fathers of the Christian Doctrin The Exhortation I made her tended only to represent to her That she was returning into the Church which her Fathers had forsaken That she would not henceforth believe her self more capable than the Church more illuminated than the Church and fuller of the Holy Ghost than the Church That she would receive from the Church without examining the true Sense of the Scripture as she receiv'd from her the Scripture it self That she was henceforth going to build upon the Rock and that her Faith must fructify in good Works She felt the Consolation of the Holy Ghost and the Assistance was edify'd by her good Example The End of the Conference REFLEXIONS ON A Writing OF M r. CLAUDE'S REFLEXIONS On a WRITING of M R. CLAUDE ' S. YOU have seen in the Advertisement which is at the Beginning of this Book That after Mr. Claude had read my Recital he made an Answer to the Instruction I had given Mademoiselle de Daras joyning to it a Relation of our Conference which he had drawn up as he affirms in that Writing the next day after ou● Meeting

of Piety of real Sanctity Where then the Profession is wanting there are neither true Believers nor a true Church But moreover this is visibly not so else when Luther appear'd and Zuinglius innovated their Disciples must have made this Declaration This is what we always believ'd we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith and from the Pope and from Bishops and from the Real Presence and from Confession and from Communion under one Kind and from Relicks and from Images and from Prayer to Saints and from the Merit of Works Where are those who spake in this manner Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them On the contrary are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak as newly retir'd out of the Darkness of the Papacy and does not Luther glory at their head that he was the first who declar'd the Gospel All the Reformed grant it except Zuinglius who disputes this Honor with him He in the mean time acknowledges that he was the sincerest Monk the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists Do not the others use the same Language Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes who not only durst not declare their Faith whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church but after they were gone out of it durst not say they had always held in their heart the same Faith But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation In the Definition that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church he says 'T is the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one If before the Refomation there was no such Church the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was and if there were such a Church where Profession was made of the Truth and which by her Ministery gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds Separation Is it perhaps that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass and teach all the Doctrins which our Reformed have alledg'd for the Cause of their Rupture To think it only would be the greatest of Absurdities But it may be in teaching all these Doctrins they had not yet thought of excommunicating those that oppos'd them Whence then come so many Anathemaes against ●erengarius against the Waldenses and Albigenses against John Wickcliff and John Hus whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors What then had not those who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth that is according to Mr. Claude of the Reformed Doctrin yet found the Invention of making a Schism and was all the World agreed to suffer them But should all this be true the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better since still before it had any Existence there must be acknowledg'd a Ministery where without teaching either that the Sinner is justify'd by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordi●ate Prayer which is address'd to Saints or in fine without any of those Articles which distinguish our Reformed from us althô they place their Salvation in them they ceas'd not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary fo● the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one What has the Reformation wrought if all these things are not necessary Aliments if even the Sacred Cup and consequently the Supper which according to our Pretended Reformed cannot subsist without the Cup is none of these Aliments necessary to the Christians Faith How they have tormented themselves in vain and how unadvisedly they have caus'd so many Troubles and shed so much Blood if these things are not necessary Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduc'd to the Apostles Creed or in general to the Scripture But the Socinian Church remins this Creed and this Scripture so that the Ministery of a Socinian Church would according to this Rule have furnisht the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one What then at last will these necessary Aliments be and if they are furnisht without the Substraction of any one only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture in what Heresy have they been wanting The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself Man Ans 4. q. the more he is intangled For after he has establisht as a Fundamental Truth that GOD always preservos in the Ministery all that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers and bring them to Salvation he says it does not thence follow that the Ministery is exempt from all Error even in its Decisions but that whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience or even concern Salvation the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil and preserve Purity Thus all would be reduc'd to Liberty of Conscience and what Error soever is taught in the Ministery provided they force none to follow their Decisions and suffer all contrary Doctrin good or bad 't is enough to make Mr. Claude say that the Ministery furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one But according to this Pretention there would be no Society whose Ministery should more furnish all necessary Aliments than a Society of Socinians who brag that they will not damn any one If it be said amongst our Reformed that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST 't is also said there that 't was no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries which as they say reign'd every where And if they will in fine imagin that 't is more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions which they call Idolatry besides all the Substractions we have just now shewn there according to the Principles of the Reformed and even before their Reformation it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe that it would be more easy for these true Believers who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrins under a Ministery full of Errors to cut off what is superfluous than to supply what is defective or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing than by adding the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those that diminish as those that add 'T would be better then for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉 and the perpe●●al Visibility of the Church and 〈…〉 't is in fine sufficient all this Visibility being 〈◊〉 that GOD has preserv'd the Holy Scripture where the Faithful whether conceal'd or open

tell thee According to this Rule whoever can shew a whole Church a whole Society of Pastors the Beginning of its Being and a Time whensoever during which it was not has convinc'd it of not being a Church truly Christian This is our Pretention and we pretend not that this Question is about a simple Formality We averr that it concerns a fundamental Article contain'd in these words of the Creed I believe the holy Catholick Church an Article besides of such importance that it carries with it the Decision of all the rest But as this Point is decisive so it is no less clear and it cannot be long spoken of but one side or other will shew their weakness Let us say better when a Catholick never so little instructed undertakes a Protestant upon this Point this Protestant how able and subtil soever will find himself reduc'd not always indeed to hold his Peace but what is no less strong than Silence to say nothing when he shall attempt to speak but visible Absurdities This is what here befell Mr. Claude thrô the sole Defect of his Cause for 't will appear that he defended it with all possible Skill and so subtilly that I fear'd for those who heard him for I know what St. Paul writes of such Discourses But in fine we must boldly say The Truth gain'd a manifest Victory What Mr. Claude avows ruins his Cause The Places where he stood without an Answer are indeed such as suffer none And to the end it may not be said I assert what I please or that I now desire what I ere while disclaim'd to be believ'd on my own word two things will shew whatever Opinion may be had of me that in this Point I must necessarily he believ'd The first is that relying on the force of Truth and his Promise who said Luk. xxi v. 15. that he will give us a Mouth and Wisdom which our Adversaries shall not be able to resist where-ever Mr. Claude shall say that he has not acknowledg'd what I make him acknowledge in the Recital of the Conference I engage my self in a second Conference to draw again from him the same Acknowledgment and where-ever he shall say that he was not without an Answer I will force him without any other Argument but those he has already heard to Answers so visibly absurd that any men of good Sense shall acknowledge he had far better have been silent than have made use of them And for fear it should be said for in an Affair that concerns the Conversion of Souls we must as much as may be prevent all Objection for fear then once again it should be said that Mr. Claude engag'd himself in these Inconveniences by ill management I on the contrary affirm that this Advantage is so inherent to our Cause that there is no Minister no Doctor no man living but must in the same manner sink under the like Arguments Those who will make trial of it shall see that this is no vain Promise If any one says I presume too much on my strength now that I examin my self in the presence of GOD if such a Presumption had made me speak I should disown all I had said Instead of promising my self any Advantage I should esteem my self already vanquisht by trusting only to my own Arm and my own Weapons and so far should I be from defying the strong as David that I should rank my self among those Ps 63. of whom the same David sings that the Arrows of Children have pierc'd them and their own Tongue too weak to defend them is in fine turn'd against themselves The Instruction I offer in general to the Pretended Reformed I particularly offer those of the Diocess of Meaux whom I am above all the rest oblig'd to bear in my Bowels Those that shall refuse this Christian Instruction no less peaceable fraternal and paternal than concluding and decisive I shall say to them in the words of St. Paul with sorrow and groaning there being no comfort in the loss of ones Children and Brethren Acts. xx v. 26. I am pure from the Blood of them all This is the first thing which will shew that I impute nothing to Mr. Claude which might give me any Advantage The second is that Mr. Claude himself in the midst of what he opposes against me and amongst all the Turns he gives our Dispute still acknowledges at last what was in contest between us or else shifts it off in such a manner as plainly shews he cannot entirely disown it But this will be better understood by those who after the Instructions and the Conference shall read the Reflexions I make on Mr. Claudes writing Some Attention is requisite to comprehend the whole sequel of these Instructions for whatever Easiness it has pleas'd GOD to let us find in a matter in which he shews the most ignorant as well as the most learned the plain way of Salvation yet would be not discharge any one of the Attention he is capable of and since the following Discourses had their Rise from the XIX and XX Articles of my Exposition the reading of these two Articles which will take up but half a quarter of an hour will facilitate the Vnderstanding of all this Work thô I moreover hope that it is of it self sufficiently intelligible Besides the Reading of them will not be unuseful to Catholicks who ordinarily too much neglect Books of Controversy Grounded on the Faith of the Church they are too careless in perusing such Works by which their Faith might be confirm'd and in which they might find means to reduce the Erring This was not the Vse in the first Ages of the Church the Treatises of Controversy written by the Fathers were sought after by all the Faithful Conversation being one of the Means propos'd to us by the Holy Ghost for the gaining of Vnbelievers every one endeavour'd to render his profitable and edifying by such Reading The Truth insinuated it self by so sweet a Means and Conversation won those whom a premeditated Dispute would perhaps but have made more averse But to the end the Works we make of Controversy may be read as those of the Fathers were let us endeavour as the Fathers did to fill them not only with exact and found Doctrine but also with Piety and Charity and let us as much as we can correct the Dryness not to say the Sourness which is too often found in such Books A TABLE OF THE ARTICLES CONFERENCE I. THE Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction p. 1 II. The Conference p. 20 III. The Sequel of the Conference p. 49 REFLEXIONS THE first Reflexion on Mr. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed p. 58 Second Reflexion on one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Churches Judgment p. 64 Third Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the

as open'd the Book He forms not then his Faith by the reading of the Scripture this Reading finds his Faith already form'd this Reading does but confirm to a Christian all he already believ'd and all he had already found in the Churches Belief He believ'd then before all things that the Church deceiv'd him not and by this he began to make the Acts of a Christian Children are not instructed in any other manner When they hear their Parents 't is the Church they hear for our Parents are our Teachers only as they are Children of the Church 'T is for this reason the Holy Ghost sends us to them Ask thy Father and he will shew thee thy Elders and they will tell thee St. Basil Ep. 29. so great a Divine justifies himself and at the same time confounds the Hereticks by alledging to them the Faith of his Mother and of his Grandmother St. Macrina and he herein imitates St. Paul who praises Timothy for having an unfeigned Faith 2 Tim. 1. 5. which dwelt first in his Grandmother Lois and his Mother Eunice The meaning is that true Doctrin ought always to descend from hand to hand and that there shall always be a true Church to which none can ever shew her beginning nor find in her State those Marks of Interruption and Novelty which all other Sects bear on their Front Christian Parents joyn'd to this Church joyn their Children to her and put them at the feet of her Ministers to be there instructed 'T is not to be imagin'd that Children in whom Reason begins to appear because they know not how to rank their Discourses are incapable of resenting the Impressions of Truth They are seen learn to speak in an Age yet more infirm in what manner they learn by what they make the Distinction between the Noun and the Verb the Substantive and the Adjective neither themselves know nor can we who have learnt by this Method well explicate so deep and hidden it is We learn almost in the same manner the Churches Language A secret Light guides us in both these States in the one 't is Reason in the other Faith Reason discovers it self by little and little and so does Faith infus'd by Baptism We must have Motives to fix us to the Churches Authority GOD knows them and we know them in general in what manner he ranks them how he makes these innocent Souls perceive them is the Secret of his Holy Spirit However 't is certain that this is done and by this he begins As this is the first Christian Act we make and as on this Foundation all is built so it subsists for ever The time will come when we shall know more distinctly why we believe and the Churches Authority will from day to day become stronger in our minds The Scripture it self will fortify the Chains which bind us to her but we must always have Recourse to the Original that is to believe on the Churches Authority What Age soever we are at 't is by this we begin to believe the Scripture we continue also on the same Foundation and St. Augustin was already perfect in the Ecclesiastical Science Cont. Ep. Fudam 5. when he said He would not believe the Gospel if the Authority of the Catholick Church did not oblige him to it I could were it in dispute shew the same Opinion in the other Fathers We must always re-ascend to the first Principle and this is the first Principle that fixes us to the Church Let them not reproach to us this Vicious Circle The Church makes us believe the Scripture the Scripture makes us believe the Church This on both sides is true in different Respects The Church and the Scripture are so made for one another and do so perfectly suit with one another that they support each other like Stones in an Arch which mutually keep up the Building All Nature is full of such Examples I bear the Staff on which I lean the Flesh binds and covers the Bones which sustain it and all things in the whole Universe mutually aid one another So it is with the Church and the Scripture There was but one Church such as JESVS CHRIST founded to which such a Scripture as we have could be address'd that is such an one as durst promise the Church in which this Scripture was made an eternal continuance If any one receives the Scripture by the Scripture I will prove to him the Church if he acknowledges the Church by the Church I will prove to him the Scripture but since we must begin on one side I have clearly enough shewn by Mr. Claude's Confession that if we begin not by the Church the Divinity of the Scripture and the Faith we ought to have in it is in Danger Wherefore the Holy Ghost begins our Instruction by fixing us to the Church I believe the Catholick Church Amongst our Adversaries one must examin before he believes and he must before all things examin the Scripture by which he examins all the rest 'T is not enough to have read some particular Verses some Chapters some Books till such time as one has read all conferr'd all examin'd all Faith continues in suspense since 't is by this Examen that 't is form'd Amongst the true Christians one believes at first Thy Faith hath saved thee saith JESVS CHRIST Thy Faith Tertul. de Praescrip 14. observes Tertullian in that divine work of Prescriptions and not thy being verst in the Scriptures There 's no need of passing through Opinions through Doubts through the Uncertainties of human Faith I never chang'd says St. Basil What I believ'd from my Infancy Ep. 79. has only been strengthned in my following years Without passing from one Opinion to another I have only perfected what was at first given me by my Parents As a Grain which is sown of little that it was becomes big but continues always the same in it self and without changing its Nature takes only Increase so is may Faith increas'd and this is not a Change in which one passes from worse to better but an Accomplishment of a Work already begun and the Confirmation of Faith by knowledge In this manner we pass not as amongst our Reformed from a State of doubt to a State of Certainty or as Mr. Claude loves better to speak from an human Faith to a divine Divine Faith is declar'd at first by the Churches first Instructions and this could never be did not her infallible Authority prevent all our Doubts and all Examination 'T is thus Cont. ep Man 4. as says St. Augustin 't is thus I say That those believe who not being able to arrive at Vnderstanding secure their Salvation by the simplicity of their Faith If we must always examin before we believe we must begin by examining whether there is a GOD and hearkning for some time with a kind of Suspension of Mind to the Arguments of the Wicked That is we must pass to the Belief