it is agreed by all that beare the name of Christians but onely those particulars about which there is difference Serg. Paul I am also resolued by that which I haue heard from thee heretofore of all that is generally held by all Christians that there is one God which made and gouerneth the whole world who is a spirit incomprehensible and comprehending all things and one Lord Iesus Christ perfect God and perfect Man who dyed for our sinnes c. Tell me therefore onely what particular points of faith are held by the Protestants but contradicted by others Saul The first is that God onely is to be beleeued in and not any man of what title or succession so euer nor yet any company of men called the Church Rom. 3.4 because God only is true and all men are lyers neither doth the Apostles Creed propound any other to beleeued in but God onely Serg. Paul What doe you say that the Church is not to be beleeued in Is it not expressely said I beleeue in the holy Catholike Church Saul It is indeed said I beleeue the holy Catholike Church but not in it because the Catholike Church that is the Church of God being in all ages and ouer-spreading all parts of the world is an obiect of faith and not of sense forasmuch as by sense and experience wee cannot know this but by faith onely as wee apprehend the Communion of Saints forgiuenesse of sinnes and the life euerlasting Of all which the same is said that of the Catholike Church seeing there is but one Verbe I beleeue after which they all follow So that if hence it might bee gathered that the Church is to bee beleeued in it may likewise be gathered that the remission of sinnes and the refurrection of the body c. are to bee beleeued in which vvere absurd Serg. Paul What is the second particular point Saul The second is that Christ Iesus is our onely Mediator and Aduocate with the Father in Heauen neither is it lawfull to come to the Father by any other but by him and in his name alone and that the Saints departed out of this life know not of our seeking their mediation if wee should craue it Serg. Paul Is the Lord so strict that by him wee are thus restrained from all Mediators in Heauen and yet directeth vs to craue the helpe of others vpon earth to pray for vs Saul It is the voice of Gods own Spirit There is one God 1. Tim. 2.5 and one Mediator betwixt God and Man of whom onely and of none else mention is made sundry times as Ioh. 14. Ioh. 16 Rom. 8. 1 Ioh. 2. As for that direction to craue the prayers of men vpon earth it is that by hauing mutuall help one from another our mutuall loue might increase which cannot be in crauing their mediation in Heauen seeing howsoeuer our loue may increase towards them yet theirs is already fully perfect But to insist vpon nothing else they cannot heare vs as the liuing doe and if they heare it is kept secret from vs neither hath the Lord spoken one word to direct vs to them without which who so seeketh to them may iustly haue the complaint taken vp against him Ier 14.14 Hee runneth before he is sent Serg. Paul What is the third particular point Saul The third is that we are iustified and saued only by faith in Iesus Christ and that our workes euen when we are at the best merit nothing towards our eternall glorification For to this effect speaketh the Lord. Luke 17.10 When yee haue done all that ye can say that yee are vnprofitable seruants And Saint Paul A man is iustified by faith Rom. 3.28 without the workes of the Law Serg. Paul Is not the worke of him that hath faith then of more vertue then his that hath none Is he not Christs member and so Christs vertue his vertue that as in Christs actions so in his there should be merit Saul The workes of the best are of no more vertue to merit because hee is still a seruant and bound in duty to what hee doth whereas merit implyeth doing more then duty requireth And as for Christs vertue communicated vnto him it is sufficient that he is made thus worthy though not his works seeing perfect blessednesse is already fully merited by Christ for him neither is there need of any more merit Serg. Paul Can hee be said to be iustified then that hath no workes but resteth vpon a bare faith Saul No by no meanes for faith which iustifieth worketh by loue is liuely by workes as the bodie by the soule Wherefore Saint Iames writing against such a faith as is without workes Iam. â— 24 saith A man is not iustified by faith onely but by the workes of the Law That is hee is not become iust and righteous in the sight of God that hath a single and bare faith but proueth his faith sound by his workes For that he disputeth not of faith which is the sauing grace wrought in the hearts of the Elect but of a common faith of which euen Deuils are capable is plaine from the Text. For onely that common faith is the faith of which he saith A man is not iustified by faith onely Serg. Paul What is the fourth particular point Saul The fourth is that faith assureth a man without wauering or doubting of the remission of his sinnes and of eternall saluation Rom. 4.20 For such was Abrahams faith Hee doubted not through vnbeliefe but strengthened himself in faith And that faith which is ioyned with wauering in any man is like the waues of the Sea Iam. 1.6 Serg. Paul This is much that man should come to know so farre what the will of God is touching his future estate It may be that some singular man as Abraham or the holy Apostles might surely know by reuelation because they had more then ordinary acquaintance with God but for other beleeuers I cannot see how they should know though they may all hope well Saul There is great reason why any faithfull person should know this because hee hath receiued the Spirit of God 1 Cor. 2.12 which knoweth Gods will euen as the spirit within a man knoweth his minde Serg. Paul But seeing euery man is apt to conceiue the best of himselfe and naturall presumption ofttimes assureth a man of his saluation how shall he know that it is the spirit whereby hee commeth to be thus assured and not his owne partiall fantasie Saul It is a great indignitie to the Lord when as he hath taught vs Rom 8.16 that his Spirit witnesseth with our spirits that we are the children of God to question whether this testimonie can be knowne for wherefore serueth the testimonie of any if it be vnknowne Many indeed doe through their own fault deceiue themselues because being void of the spirit of sanctification they presume But hee that is renued in his mind vnto holinesse can
it whereas be speaketh not so warily at other times when be feareth not that any hold will bee taken vpon his sayings against the truth And I am the rather perswaded that they were against all liberty of the will vnto good because they so consentingly taught that euery thing proceeding from a naturall man before his conuersion is sinne Paul Touching iustification by workes or by inherent righteousnesse and not onely by the righteousnesse of Christ imputed by faith none euer taught it till An. 1500. For Christs righteousnesse onely hath euer heene rested vpon by the Fathers Ieron in 2 Cor. 5. in â— Cor. 1. Ierome saith Christ hath so receued the name of sinne as we are made the righteousnesse of God in him not ours nor in vs. Ambrose sayth This is appointed of God that he which beloeueth in Christ should be saued without workes hauing his sinnes freely forgiuen through faith onely And Chrysostome sayth In Rom. 3. Hom 7. Epist 190. So soone as a man beleeueth he is iustified Bernard saith Another mans righteousnesse is assigned vnto man because he wanted his owne the satisfaction of one is imputed to vs all Elym But there is a double iustification the first which is onely by faith and hereby a man passeth from the state of sin into the estate of grace and the second which is by inmherent righteousnesse whereby a man of iust becommeth more iust and worthy of heauen And of the first of these onely the Fathers spake not of the other Paul They could not well speake of that seeing it was vnknowne in their dayes and long since inuented And touching the merit of the best mans righteousnesse Bernard doth vtterly deny it saying The merits of men are not such Bernard Ser. 1. de Anâ—â—n as that for them eternall life should be due of right or so as that God should be vniust if he did not therefore bestow eternall life for to say nothing that allour merits are Gods gifts and so man is for them a debter vnto God not God vnto man what are all merits to so great glory Wherefore if meriting bee spoken of by the Fathers they meant nothing else but to preuaile or obtaine or else they called good works merits to set forth their dignity in respect of the diuine acceptance that men might be incouraged hereunto Elym You doe altogether peruert their meaning for they taught good workes in the regenerate to be properly meritorious seeing perfect righteousnes according to the law is worthy of heauen and such righteousnesse they taught that men through the grace of God inabling them did attaine vnto in this life yea and that they could doe and did more then the law required and so merited for others also Paul You doe most impudently wrong the Fathers for none till aboue 1000 yeares after Christ taught perfection of degrees in this life but onely perfection through Christ and a comparatiue perfection some exceeding others but altogether against it Saint Angustine saith Charity Epist 29. ad Hieron that cannot be increased is in no man bere and that which may bee increased is in fault because it is lesse then it ought to be by reason of which fault there is no man iust and sinneth not by reason of which fault no liuing man shall bee iustified in the sight of God And Ierome saith to affirme that any man liueth so as that he is without sinne is to take man out of man and to affirme that a man in the body is without the body Ierom contra Pelag Epist and rather to wish then to teach And if they held that no man can perfectly keepe the Law then it is certaine that they taught not that men could both doe all that the Law requireth and more also If then they haue spoken any thing wherein they may seeme to be for supererogation it is to be vnderstood either of outward things or of some speciall commendable thing which is not commonly commanded to all but commended to some And so their doing more then is required was onely with reference vnto others who did not likewise as not hauing that particular gift Hom. 3. in 1. Cor. or in exterials wherein Chrysostom saith euen the Philosophers exceeded the Commandement of God Serg. Paul I like this your interpretation of the Fathers very well and am hereby perswaded that both perfect keeping of the Law and workes of supererrogation are nouelties Proced therefore to vncertainty of faith Paul This vncertainty was not determined not certainty of faith condemned before the Councell of Trent Anno 1500. The Fathers are most plaine for assurance by faith Aug. Tract 75. in Johan August saith Christ is now in vs and we in him but we beleeue this now then wee shall know it although we know it now also through beleeuing but then we shall know it by bebolding it Regist lib. 6.187 Gregory saith The soule that thirsteth after God is first pricked with feare then with loue but when seare hath beene consumed with long anxiety of sorrow a certaine security of presumption of pardon doth arise Hom. 14. in Rom. 8. And Chrysostome sayth The supreme Essence which doth also bestow what it promiseth testifying vnto vs who can any more doubt of this dignity hereafter And Bernard exhorteth to beleeue without doubting Bern in Cant. Serm. 8. Whatsoeuer soule of you feeleth at any time in the secret of his conscience the Spirit of the Sonne crying Abba Father let it presume that it is beloued with afatherly affection and beleeue doubting nothing Elym They meant nothing else but certainty on Gods part but because man is mutable and all promiser runne vpon condition of his perseuerance they haue plainely taught elsewhere that none can be certaine by faith Heare August for all who sayth Who of all the multitude of beleeuers can presume that he is in the number of beleeuers as long as he is in this mortality Paul They spake in this manner to preuent carnall security which followeth vpon presumption but they neuer impugned but incouraged to assurance by faith Serg. Paul There remaineth now onely one point wherein I desire to heare you speake viz. that of satis faction Paul And this is none of their least errors that Christ satisfied onely for eternall punishments but for temporall due vnto vs for sinne we our selues are to satisfie for as it is a plaine derogation froÌ„ the dignity of his passions Touching this therefore I say as of the former points it was not taught anciently but the plaine contary Tertullian saith Tertul. de Baptis Guiltinesse being taken away the punishment is also taken away and that he may not seeme to speake of eternall punishments onely hee nameth death according as it was threatned Gen. 2.17 In the day that thou catest of it thou shalt dye the death which death here comprehendeth all punishments And Saint Augustine sayth Eâ—cbit c. 70. Christ by taking vpon
neuer be deceiued Serg. Paul Will the Spirit alwayes abide where once he hath sanctified or may not a relapse to carnality and sinne cause him to depart that so the estate of that man who hath beene once sanctified through his owne default may become as damnable or more damnable then before which if it may happen to be so what certainty can any man haue Saul He that is borne of God sinneth not neither can be 1 Iohn 3.9 because he is borne of God If I haue seemed to speake otherwise of those that haue beene enlightned and made partakers of the Holy Ghost Heb. 6.6 I sayd it to stirre vp to worke out saluation with feare and trembling and not as positiuely setting down that such might fall away Wherefore I added I am perswaded better things of you and such as accompany saluation Heb. 6.9 for God is not vnfaithfull to forget your labour and worke in the Lord. And he that hath begun this good worke Phil. 1.6 will perfect is in you Serg. Paul What is the fift particular point Saul The fift is That the soules of the faithfull being iustified by Christ doe immediately after their departure out of their bodies take possession of that inheritance which he hath by his blood purchased for them and that there is not any punishment by a Purgatory fire to bee further endured before their comming into heauen Luke 12. For Lazarus was caried immediately into Abrahams bosome and the dead that dye in the Lord are said to be blessed Because they rest from their labours which were not true Reu. 14.13 if they had more misery yet to passe through rather greater then any already past Serg. Paul But then thy selfe hast taught 1 Cor. 3.11 that euery one must be tryed in the fire after which he whose worke abideth shall be rewarded Saul Thou art vtterly mistaken for I neuer taught that euery man must be tryed by the fire but euery mans worke concerning which it may be doubted here euen as of mettall before it commeth to the fire but at the last day which shall be a time of fire and burning flames it will plainly appeare what solid or chaffie doctrine any man hath built vpon the true foundation Christ because the righteous Iudge of the whole world comming in person will lay euery thing open as it is They are very inconsiderate therefore that take this as spoken of persons it being altogether besides my purpose there to speake of any but builders or of any paine by them to be suffered after death for the more clarifying of them from sinne but onely of the difference of their acceptance before God at the last as they haue beene solid or sleighty in their building that golden Doctors of the Church might be incouraged and the chaffie terrified as being like if they would not build better to come into great perill at the last Serg. Paul What is the fixt particular point Saul The sixt is that when any are departed out of this life we that suruiue can doe nothing auailable to their saluation by offering vp any prayers almes or sacrifice Because as the rich man being dead Luke 16.26 it was said they that would come from thence could not so we beleeue that there is no remouing of soules from woe to blisse but as the tree falleth so it lyeth 2 Sam 12. And therefore as Dauid prayed for his child being aliue but when it was dead ceased so to doe in like manner we pray for the sicke as being yet capable of mercy but if they be dead we cease from praying any more being assured that to pray now is no more deuotion but superstition sauoring more of violent affection then of right reason Serg. Paul What is the seuenth particular point Saul The seuenth is that the Sacrament of the Lords Supper ought to bee administred to all the people in both kinds and that it is a Sacrament consisting of two parts the thing signifying and the thing signified and not a sacrifice of Christs very body and blood there substantially present as when he was crucified vpon the Crosse iterated againe by the Priest to as great auaile as when he suffered for vs. For this were not to remember Christ absent in the flesh but to bring him backe againe to the death tenne thousand times ouer and to make a miracle the obiect of faith when as the proper end of miracles is to helpe vs to beleeue things inuisible themselues being alwayes visible and sensible Serg. Paul Is not the Lord then to be beieeued who saith This is my body Saul Yes by all meanes but as in other speeches wee must not looke so much to the letter as to the sense as when he saith I am the Vine I am the Doore I am the Way Iohn â—5 1 in all which hee is figuratiue so here taking the speech as it is meant we beleeue it with all our hearts that the bread is Christs body to the faithfull receiuer and is thus called because by it Christ is exhibited and receiued indeed Serg. Paul What is the eighth particular point Saul The eighth point is that in Baptisme there is true and certaine remission of sinnes to all repentant and faithfull persons but not an abolition of naturall corruption for that remaineth still in the baptized to intice Iam. 1 14. Gal. 5.17 Rom. 7.23 and to draw to actuall sinning in so much that the regenerate cannot doe what they would nor yet I my selfe for I find in mee the law of my members rebelling against the law of my mind and leading mee captiue to the law of sinne Serg. Paul What is the ninth particular point Saul The ninth is that these two Sacraments are all the Sacraments of the New Testament because the Lord Iesus ordained these and none of the other fiue which by some are added to make vp the number seuen For a sacrament is Gods seale and so properly to be appointed by him who alone hath the power ouer that which is sealed vp hereby Serg. Paul What is the tenth particular point Saul The tenth point is that the best are not so perfectly righteous in this life neither can any attaine to such perfection in keeping Gods Lawes but that they are still much faulty for in many things wee sinne all and Iam. 3.2 1 Iohn 1.8 If wee say that we haue no sinne we deceiue our selues and there is no truth in vs. Serg. Paul What doth Christ then command vs things impossible for he biddeth vs be perfect Mat. 5.48 Phil. 3.15 as our Father which is in heauen is perfect and thou thy selfe hast said so many of vs as be perfect let vs be thus minded Saul There is a twofold perfection of parts and of degrees perfection of parts is when a man hath not onely one grace or a few graces but all graces perfection of degrees is when a man hath attained such a measure of
in the workes of the regenerate through which they become worthy of heauen Serg. Paul The Saints are so neere vnto Christ as that it seemeth to be all one to ascribe merit vnto their passions and to hiâ—â— if they were diuerse from him it were to lay another foundation indeed Hast not thou written to the same effect saying Col. 1.24 I fulfill therest of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body which is his Church And touching the Masse and good workes of the regenerate whatsoeuer vertue is ascribed hereunto it tendeth the more to the magnisying of Christs merit which is able to giue vertue to other things to mâ—rit also Saul These are plausible reasons indeed to dâ—ceiue the simple but he which hath any vnderstanding can consider that by the like reason the sunne moone and starres might safety be associated vnto God in diuine worship for they are neere vnto him also And for that saying of mine if any other part of my writing or of the whole Bible did sound to the seconding of such an acception it might well bee taken so but considering that I haue plainly professed elsewhere that Paul is nothing and Aposlo nothing 1. Cor. 3. Phil. 3.9 and that Christs righteousnesse is that onely wherein I desire to bee found Mee thinkes what I haue said to the Colossians should not be wrested so but bee simply taken of my sufferings in going about to doe good vnto the Church which I call Christs sufferings because vndergone for him who taught me sometime Act. 9. that the persecuting of his members was the persecuting of himselfe Lastly where there is any such extent of the vertue of Christs passion to make other things meritorious certaine it is good to acknowledge and extoll it but out of this case as it is in the matter of the Masse and of good workes it is a plaine derogating from Christs merit the onely sure foundation and a razing of it That there is no merit in these things hath beene sufficiently shewed heretofore Serg. Paul But did not the blessed Virgin Mary merit any thing for vs by thos passions which she had together with Christ in her soule when he hung vpon the Crosse Saul I am glad that you put me in mind againe to speak of this that the abhomination of the Romish religion might the more appeare For indeed they make her aboue all the Saints not onely a mediatrix of intercession but of Redemption also affirming that her standing by when the Lord suffered vpon the crosse full of sorrow to be hold it was a ioyning with him in our Redemption and therefore where as it is said of Christ hee shall breake the Serpents head they turne it she and whereas the Prophet saith in his person Gen. 3. I haue troden the winepresse alone there was no man with me Esa 63.3 they say there was no man indeed but that blessed woman yea and so farre be the Iesuites gone in their dotage about her meriting as that they make comparisons betwixt her milke and Christs blood ascribing as much to the one as to the other as appeareth in the booke called The Iesuits Gospell Serg. Paul Touching his mediatorship doe they rely vpon any other Mediators Saul Yes that they doe for they make both the Virgin Mary and all the Saints departed mediators vnto God for them in all their common prayers desiring them to pray for them and sometimes as though they had the disposing of heauen that they would conferre vpon them the Kingdome of heauen Serg. Paul Although Christ be the onely Mediator of Redemption yet there are more mediators of intercession for we all must pray one for another It seemeth therefore that this doth no more raze the foundation then desiring the Elders of the Church to pray for vs in the time of sicknesse Saul I haue already spoken enough to shew the error of this practice It shall suffice therefore onely to adde thus much more that this distinction betwixt a Mediator of Redemption of intercession in heauen is vaine for as Christ is the onely propitiation for our sinnes 1 Iohn 2.2 Rom. 8.34 so hee onely at the right hand of God maketh intercession for vs. If any else doe the like it is concealed from vs neither are wee bidden to come by them but altogether by the Sonne vnto the Father Moreouer we cannot come by any in heauen vnto God but wee must ascribe vnto them the diuine attribute of omniscienceâ— wherby they know all things though neuer so remote from them which is to rob the Lord of his peculiar honour as if Maiesty or Supreme power were ascribed to any of the kings subiects Serg. Paul Proceed new to the last point what doe they hold touching the beginning and proceedings of Grace Saul They teach that there is in euery man free will whereby hee can desire and doe preparatiue workes vnto grace which the Lord beholding hath mercy vpon him and inlargeth him being before in prison and bound as it were with chaines and then hee becommeth able to doe according to his desire that is perfectly to fulfill Gods Commandements for which he shall finally haue the reward of eternall glory bestowed vpon him Serg. Paul And haue they not good ground for this in the example of Cornelius Act. 10. whose almes and prayers done before his conuersion were acceptable to God so as that hereupon Peter was sons vnto him and the holy Ghost was bestowed vpon him Saul God had wrought in the heart of Cornelius before this Act. 10.2 for hee is said to haue beene a deuout man and one that feared God which could not haue been spoken of him if he had been a meere naturall man Therefore from his example no good argument can be made to proue preparatiue works in naturall men Hee had doubtlesse so much grace and knowledge as was incident to the faithfull before Christs comming in the flesh onely hee wanted the knowledge of his person in particular already come to preach which and that withall he might receiue the holy Ghost Peter was sent vnto him Serg. Paul But how doth this raze the foundation Christ Saul Because vpon Christ all our well desiring and doing doth depend We cannot thinke a good thought as of our selues but all our sufficiency is of God 2. Cor. 3.5 Ioh. 15.5 1. Cor. 1. Gen. 6.5 and the Lord hath plainly said without me ye can doe nothing and touching a naturall man the wisdome of God is foolishnesse vnto him all the imaginations of his bea rt are onely euill continually To teach that then whereby a man shall bee brought in part to rely vpon himselfe is in effect to disanull Christ the alone ground of our well doing and desiring Serg. Paul I am well satisfied by this touching your first reasen prouing that the Roman Church is no true Church of God me thought you game me an hint of a further reason in saying