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A74979 Excommunicatio excommunicata, or, A censure of the Presbyterian censures and proceedings in the Classis at Manchester wherein is modestly examined what ecclesiastical or civil function [sic] they pretend for their new and usurped power : in a discourse betwixt the ministers of that Classis, and some dissenting Christians. Allen, Isaac, 17th cent.; Allen, Isaac, 17th cent.; Heyrick, Richard, 1600-1667. 1658 (1658) Wing A1026A; ESTC R42720 45,307 67

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not finde that the Presbyterian Government hath lyen hid so long as that for the space of 1500 years it could never be found till this present You have heard what rule did anciently belong to Presbyters notwithstanding that through the corruptions that crept into the Church in after times the exercise of that power was long disused And the like may be said of Ruling Elders and as hath been shewed by others But it is what de jure ought to be and not what de facto is or hath been which is that which you and wee are chiefly to attend and concerning which the Scripture must be the onely Judg as wee have said before But you say now subjection to our present Government is required by us and then demand Whether all that observe not our rank and order and subject not themselves to our present Government must be taken for lawlesse persons for so say you doth this close connexion of ours seem to import viz. Many who do not subject but live c. But here you do reason fallaciously à bene conjunctis ad male divisa For in our Paper wee speak of such as did live in a sinfull and total neglect of the Lords Supper That were scandalous and offensive in their lives drunkards unclean persons and that will not subject themselves to the present Government but live as lawlesse persons And therefore the lawlesse persons wee meant and as might plainly have been gathered from our words were such who as they subjected not themselves to the present Government of the Church so they were also scandalous and offensive in their lives wee joyning these altogether whom you divide And whether such as will neither submit themselves to the Laws of God nor the Government that is settled in the Church by the Civil Power be not lawlesse persons we leave it to you to judg But yet we do here also minde you That however we do not judg all those to be lawlesse persons that do out of conscience not come up to the observation of all those Rules which are or shall be established by Authority for regulating the outward worship of God and Government of this Church being otherwise blamelesse yet both you and wee may well remember that such as should have refused to have subjected themselves to the late Prelatical Government would have been accounted in those times to have been lawlesse persons But you say When wee make it an Order that notice shall be taken of all persons that forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints you would gladly know how farr wee extend this Saintship this Church and Assembly of Saints To which wee answer as farr as the Apostle did when writing to the Church of Corinth and the Churches of Galatia hee calls them Saints and Churches notwithstanding there were some in those Churches that were leavened with unsound doctrine and grosly erroneous In Corinth some that denied the Resurrection made rents and schisms and sundry grosly scandalous In the Churches of Galatia such as mixed works with Faith in the point of Justification and of which the Apostle Paul would have those Churches to take notice even to the censuring of them they being spots to those Assemblies and however Saints by profession and in regard of outward calling being in Covenant with God and having been baptized yet answered not their profession by suitable conversation And therefore however there be sundry of the like stamp in our Assemblies wee do not therefore unchurch them or make our Assemblies not the Assemblies of Saints because of the corruption of such members And seeing our principles and practices are manifestly known to be utterly against the opinions and practices of the Donatists of old and those that have of late rent themselves from our Churches because of the scandalousnesse of the corrupt members that are found in them though the sin of these in our Churches is aggravated by giving that occasion you might well have spared your pains in transcribing out of Augustine what hee justly said unto those schismaticks that hee had to deal with Nay you might rather have gathered from our Paper That seeing wee said that notice should be taken of all those that should forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints our purpose was to have censured such as the Donatists were That wee purposed to observe and censure those that did maintain and hold up private meetings in opposition to the publick That crie down our Churches and publick Assemblies Ministery and Ordinances as you know several sorts do and who as they hold sundry grosse errors that subvert the faith so in regard of those and other their practices that in their own nature do manifestly subvert the order unity and peace that Christ hath established in his Church do justly fall under Church censure according to the rules of our Government above mentioned And that therefore wee were not altogether silent concerning either the sin or punishment of such as did err grosly in doctrinals or in discipline so as to make such dangerous rents from the Church as the fore-named Sectaries do Contrary to what you say of us in your Paper And further by such as forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints of whom wee said notice should be taken you might have gathered our meaning was that such of which sort there are but too many amongst us who out of a principle of carelesnesse sloth worldlinesse or manifest prophanenesse do on the Lords day either idle out the time or else are worse imployed when they should resort to the publick Assemblies and who as they are no friends to any private meetings for the good of their souls in the use of any private means of conference or prayer for that end So they do also Atheistically turn their backs on all the publick Ordinances forsaking them and the Assemblies where these are dispensed should be taken notice of in order to censure if there was not reformation and to neither of which sort of persons any indulgence is granted by any Laws of the Land that wee know of And if you had gathered thus much from our Paper as your mistake had been far the less so your Charity had been the more then to have reckoned us in the number of such Persons as the Donatists were And yet we did not mean That we intended to take notice in order unto censure of such who being sound in the faith and godly in life though differing from us in point of Discipline and Government had their distinct Assemblies from ours they indeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace They not being censurable by the rules of our Government as is manifest by what we have declared before Although we remember how all that submitted not to the former Government were counted schismatical Neither did we reckon these in the number of the lawless Persons we speak of who subjected not themselves to our Government and whom we account to be