churches interest whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here and els where affirme And where yt is supposed that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is off the churche off god As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling and Maister Caluin iointly that they haue affirmed off the significatioÌ off the worde as muche as he yt is a manifeste vntrwthe For maister Caluin neuer affirmed that the scripture euer vsed that worde to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans signification off the word lifting vp off handes and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe as a clearer coulde not be required His words be thes yt is to be noted that the disciples vvithe fastinge and praiers did make elections by voices Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke and the Scoliast followinge him continually throwghe the storie of the Actes note the people whiche belieued it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both coÌclude vppon this place that the people did chuse and coÌcludethe yt also of the worde lifting vp off handes Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule and Barnab he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes I will not as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile stande yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed how this testimonie makethe directly againste that whiche the Doctor affirmeth that is to saie that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes For if it signifie bothe the election by voices and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands then our cawse standeth as sure as if it onely signified the election by voices And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius that the Ans in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off who writeth thus yt is meet that yovv as those vvhiche be the church off god should chuse by voices yovvr bishopp Wherby not onely appeareth that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification to note the election whiche is made by voices Chrysostome remaineth which taking the worde for the imposition off handes doothe not exclude the naturall signification Brentius translating Chrysost had folowed that sense I set downe yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example he is worthy off credite Let vs now see what the Ans hath to say against those reasons wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes ment properly the election by voices I may not saithe he teache the holie goste to speake God forbid I should goe abowte yt But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly speake properly him selfe I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe by liftinge vp And where yow saie I trifle becawse he that laieth on his handes muste firste lifte them vpp or euer he can laie them on who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge For who dothe not vnderstande that the name is vsually giuen off the principall and nearest action wherwithe it is doon and not off those actions whiche are farr off accidentall or for the cause and sake off the principall And yt is all on as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande cuttinge off breade because he that cutteth breade muste before take the knife into his hande How be it if there were the same manner off layinge on off haÌdes in the primitiue churche whiche is in poperie and withe vs where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand or euer he can laie yt on that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly like a paire off hanging sleeues he muste let them downe or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections haue if I shoulde deale hardly with yow loste this aduantage Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament nor that S Paule and Luke him selffe vtter the layinge on off handes by other words Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him but ye shall heare by and by where he hathe not halfe suche a reason the greate bell goe with certeinly and manifestly Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him yt muste needes haue weighte with those that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde when they speake off the same thinges and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters they kepe them so carefully to that that sometimes they vse it althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste aÌd so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew as mighte haue beene Which thinge doone off all those especially whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills amongeste whom S. Luke S. Paules Companion was whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke that in one and the same ceremonie commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament as those off the oulde Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes and the wordes off the 70 interpreters to take a straunge phrase from the one and diuers wordes from the other or whether he woulde leaue the phrase and wordes which the Iewes and gentils were acquainted withe to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of and a worde whiche was in that signification vnknowen vnto the Gentils off all whiche when there is no one which hath not force to perswade this sentence so the laste is suche that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men and to their vnderstandinge if by this worde lifting vp off handes he had signified a layinge on of handes he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge And where he saithe I oppose my bare coniectures to improue so many learned mennes iudgements I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde I haue no where reasoned againste yow as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde the laying of on haÌdes
the godly reader TO all here in controuersie coÌsidering they are barely said without proof yf they be affirmations one yea yf they be denials one nae shall be enowgh seing they are all handled at large in this book Except that off ceremonies vsed in popery wheroff how vntrwly he speaketh when he saith that the reiecting off them standeth vpon this that we may not vse in any wise or in any consideration reteined in the church any thing that hath bene abused vnder the Pope both hath manifestly in my former book and further shall God willing in the later part off my reply appear Answer to his two Tables wheroff the first is intitled off daungerous pointes off doctrine the other off vntrwthes and falsified autorities conteined in my reply AFter I had ended my book and was entred vpon the preface I receiued a treatise called An examination off M. Doctor VVhitgiftes censures conteined in tvvo Tables set before his book intituled the defence of the ansvver to the admoni Wherof as I was glad for the truthes safe which shall receiue strenght by yt so I was sory that I receiued yt no sooner for that it might both haue cased me off muche labor and haue serued me for a good direction in those places which might seem to require a larger defence then the shortnes yt foloweth would receiue And as those off the churche which acknowledg this trwth so I especially for whose support I take yt was written hartely thanck the autor and desire the reader to vse yt for a supply where my answer doeth not satisfy him Whiche answers off myne so far as I haue hetherto gone he shall finde after this sort In the firste Table The first Article becawse yt was not lincked with any particuler cause in controuersie I pourposed to answer in this place but now I will rest in the answer which is made The 2. is answered page xlij line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix li. 14. The 6. page xcv l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij li. 21. For the 8. I refer my self to the foresaid treatise especially considering that I haue passed by that whole Tractate The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij lin 6. The 14. page ccclj li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij li. 37. In the second Table The first is answered page viij li. 22. The 2. page ix li. 26. The 3. page lxij li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij lin 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx ij l. 29. The 7. page cxcj li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtil suppression is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth vpon Illiricus whom I named the autor off that report yf yt be not in the Code The 9. is answered page cclv li. 16. The 10. page cclvj li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij li. 7. The 16. page ccc li. 33. The 18 pa. cclxâx li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij li. 33. The 24. page diiij li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij li. 11. The 27. dlxx li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj li. 36. The 30. page dcxv li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle The 33. page dcxlj li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered in the second part off my reply The replye vnto the answer pag. j. c. FOr the foure fyrst sectyons being either false accusations bare repetitions off my wordes or profes off thinges which I haue set downe and confesse I will not answer His fifte section answerethe not any thinge to diuers reasons which I haue set downe to proue that this cause can not be charged with disorder whose whole worke is that nothing be donne owte off place owte off tyme besides the boundes off euerie one His seuerall callinge in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing doothe gwilfully passe by the reason which I haue alledged why this doctine which we mainteine can not be thowght enemy vnto princes seing yt was a freende to princes when princes where enemies vnto it For him selfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders the choise off the ministers by the churche the moste off those thinges which he especially supposeth to haue warre with the ciuile magistrate and are in controuersie betweene vs were in the tymes off the Apostells when they being troden vnder feete off the ciuile Magistrate did neuer lifte vpp their heele againste his power And where he saithe it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cause which is trewly spoken off the gospell he needed not to haue charged vs with wante of plaine dealing seing we offer to shew the discipline to be a parte off the gospell and therfore to haue a comon cause so that in the repulse of the discipline the gospell receiueth a checke That the discipline off the church is not in the nomber of those thinges which are varyed is disputed in the second tractate and in her seueral partes thorowe out the whole booke That the distinction off the common welthe and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men which haue spokeÌ or written with any Iudgement shall be shewed in the 20. Tractate and therfore althowghe the answerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions yet the reader shall once for all looke for the answer off thes thinges in those places In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authoritie off the magistrate vppon no occasion to no purpose with greate wordes with no proofe Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the priestes of Aegypte he complaineth of my obscuritie and that he can not vnderstande what I meane wheras I coulde hardely haue vsed greater light of speache if I had bente my selfe therunto For I proue the singuler benefite that the discipline bringeth to the comon welthe for that by the Ecclesiasticall censures off admonition reprehension suspension c. the lesser faultes off lying vncomely iesting and cholericke speaking being met with all the passage is stopped againste the greater faultes off thefte adultery and murder Wherin obserue his vnfaithfull dealing which feining him selfe not to vnderstande that which my wordes doo fullie sounde doothe notwithstanding forge thinges off me wheroff there is not the smallest ynkling For here vppon he asketh whether I thinke not the punishemet of thefte and murther sharpe enowghe with diuers other which folow vnto all
so expound it he speaketh as thowghe some one translation onely had so turned And in steed that he should haue said they plainelie and clerelie declare it he saith that yt semeth in some translation to insinuate and where he should haue said the same thinge that I haue sett dovvne he saith some suche thinge And on the other side when he speaketh of the translation Which serueth his humor He saith That yff credit may be giuen to those vvhich be notable lerned men speaking in the plural numbre as thowghe there were a numbre that had so translated it when beside the oulde translator he is not able to shew so muche as one For wher he saith that Pellicane translateth those wordes c. he is a-abused for they are the wordes off the ould translator and not off Pellicane who neuer set forth any translation I graunt that Pellicane being deceiued by the oulde interpretor so expoundeth it but what is that against so manifest both light of the texte and consent off all other learned men which all with one coÌsent refuse the oulde traÌslatioÌ as that which dooth opeÌ violence vnto the trewth so that I perswade my self that euen the verie papistes as the monke Isiodorus Clarius hath in this point reformed the oulde traÌslator And it is a mere fable that the Leuites could be sanctified easlier or in shorter time then the priestes neither is their any suche thinge in all the law of Moses For as touching the corporall pollutions that happened vnto men by touchinge of thinges which the law counted vncleane and common or off what other meanes soeuer men were made vnmeete to come either into the congregation of God or other societie of men the purgation and clensinge accordinge to the kind off pollution was the same and in the same time not onelie vnto the priestes and Leuites but also vnto the common people and this answere is manifestlie ouerthrowen by the wordes off the text for in that there were some priestes sanctified as well as the Leuites it proueth manifestly that the cause off staie was not in the time that the ceremonie off sanctifing required for then that should haue also staied the rest off the priestes And wher he saith Surelie the verie circunstance off the place doth proue that sence to be true there can no wordes be sufficient to declare this bouldnes For wher the holie ghoste doth assigne the cause off the fewnes off the priestes in the worke off the lord in plaine wordes for that the leuites were more vpprighte in hart to sanctifie theÌ selues then the priestes he would make vs beleue that the cause of their fewnes in that worke was that which he hath imagined wherof there is not a lettre in the scripture For that there were to few priestes to fleay the sacrifices I graunt that the Leuites helped the priestes vntill other priestes were sanctified I likewise graunte but that the cause off this fewnes was either the want off nombre off those which were in the order and degree of priesthood or for that more time was bestowed in sanctifying the priestes then the leuites which he imagineth I denie and against his imaginatioÌ oppose the manifest wordes of the holie goste In the place also off the 30. of the Chronicles it is manifest that the people were more earnest then either the priestes or the leuites And althowgh the answerer haue here neither corrupte translation nor vntrue exposition nor patch off reason to set against it yet he wil not yelde him selfe to the truthe The holie goste declaring the readines off the people off Iudah in assembling them selues so spedilie and withe so generall a consent and their zeale in breaking downe the monumentes of Idolatrie first at Ierusalem as appeareth bothe in the last verse of the 29. chapter and in the verse goinge before this place and afterward in the whole contrie off Iudah as appeareth in the beginning off the nexte chapter iff he had said nothinge els yet it might haue bene gathered But when he addeth immediatelie after he had spoken off the readines and zeale off the people that the Leuites and the priestes vvere ashamed Iff this be not the cause I would gladlie learne of the answerer what should be And the Rabbins althowghe they often times wringe the wordes off the texte to couer the shame off their nation and especiallie off those which were in publike charge yet durst neuer attempte to striue against suche light off wordes as be here but in bothe those places off the Cronicles confesse the faultes off their priestes and leuites And one of theÌ in this place giueth this reason why the priestes aÌd Leuites differred their sanctifiyng of them to the worke of the lorde namelie for that they could not beleue that king Ezechias meÌt good faith and therfore held of and stode aloufe because they suspected that the king would returne to his fathers traine of Idolatrie as it commeth often to passe in those that serue the time which waite vppon what side the wind will turne And that owght not to seme so strange a thinge vnto the answerer considering that beside this place there is example off this vntowardnes of the priestes and Leuites in respecte off the people in an other place for when king Artaf hasta had giuen leaue vnto the Iewes to returne vnto Ierusalem for the aduancement off the seruice off God with Esra it appeareth that there were of all sortes off men which willinglie accoÌpanied Esra in his iorneye but of the the leuites either priestes or which were simplie leuites ther was not founde one vntil suche time as Esra was faine to vse his authoritie which the king had graunted him for the causing of them to come Vnto the three next sections being reproches I answere not for it is vnworthie to be answered which he speaketh off contrarietie with my selffe because I acknowledge the Bishops my superiors which would haue equalitie off the ministerie To the next pag. i3 I answere IT is not enowghe for yow to corrupt the holie scripture sentence by senteÌce but yow must also ouerthrow at once the meaninge of thre whole chapters togither semeth it a smale thinge in your eies to coÌfound thinges diuerse but yow must mingle those which are cleane contrarie For S. Paule dothe not in the eight ninthe and tenth chapters speake against those which strine aboute owtward thinges but quite contrarie disputeth against those which meinteined the free vse off all owtward thinges withowt exception not against the spiced conscience off some weake brethren that made scruple off thinges wher was none but against the senseles coÌscience of those which vnder pretence off libertie off owtward thinges gaue occasion of daungerous falles vnto the weaker brethreÌ and which coÌsidering onelie what was in the owne nature lawfull had no regard to the circumstances off place and persons wheryvpoÌ he sheweth thinges otherwise in them selues lawfull to be throwgh circumstances as towching the
vse vnlawfull And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place which was that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast was but an owtward thing and went no farther then to the bellie therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion So the place then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker but contemned them Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend they are suche as there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall for that they come not vnto the conscience nor bind not yt For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand which are thinges indifferent or vnindifferent For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion as I haue shewed and there are some internall thinges as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector or Achilles or troye as is described off Homere and virgill I sinne not and if I thincke there was neither is that imputed vnto me for synne But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded and necessarie by the word off God how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger and Zuinglius against those which trouble the church for indifferent thinges as thowghe yow had alreadie gotteÌ that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall that these things which we demaund are not necessarie What order of iudgement is this first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither yow shall haue for answere â plaine blancke To the 16. sect pa. 14. WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions partely hath bene alreadie shewed and more shall appeare But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god is neither to propound any thing to the church neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other off credit off any godlie learned zelous man And althowghe this be to much yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie whether owt off the Scriptures or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste is the onelie rule for the minister which he calleth the man off god either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god I leaue it to be considered how dauÌgerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile I willinglie graunte but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie but off the Papistes whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors was neuer hard off And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell maye to the vtter subuersion off it cause this to be printed and flie abroade And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters hathe more absurdities in yt then yt hathe wordes For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture in that as the authoritie off the Scripturr so it also is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste besides the authoritie are diuerse drawen off the causes and off the effectes c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd to perferr the authoritie of any man which ys onelie his bare affirmation vnto his one reason and discours And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God what a miserable yea what â cursed faith shall that be that is hanged off the authoritââ off men which be they neuer so learned yet are they because they be men Lyers suche as deceyue and be deceyued And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession then yt hathe in humane sciences I confesse it hathe so iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered But as for the authoritie off men for the which cause he alledgeth this yâ is farr otherwise For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences and in mens matters be off small force off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men is Good neither in humane nor diuine science yet
it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advaÌced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better theÌ the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depeÌdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer oâ disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude maÌ alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures theÌ selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not coÌtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ⪠and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture aÌd being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
off the church nor disturber off the peace but pleased god and lefte a notable example to all posteritie off Kinges and Queenes that they should not for any respecte of kindred league or allie suffer any suche pollution in their landes The same also might be fall vnto them in gatheringe off the booke for it maye well be that there purpose was by that tempere off popishe ceremonies with the gospell partly the easelier to drawe the papistes to the gospell whilest fearing that they would not frame them selues to yt yt should be some what framed vnto them partely to redeme peace therby the breach wheroff they feared might haue ensued off suche a perfecte and throwgh chaunge as the sinceritie off the gospell required Yff this were there purpose they were studious of peace and buildinge of the churche but yet erred in the meane so it appeareth that it being graunted vvhich the A. demaundeth yet my gathering off his argument is iustified To the 37. sect pag. 30. WHie should yow note here that Cyprians place was abused by the Papistes yt is besides your purpose and contrary to the law to leaue your matche withe whom your are collered and take yow to a stander by For so vnhappelie is it come to passe that the papistes whose disorders and corruption off the discipline off Christ were here oppugned haue founde yow their champion to fight for them whilest they looke on And to what ende seruethe this headlesse arrowe not shott but picked owt against the Papistes They are god be praised substantially conuinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian by diuerse learned men so that this bare affirmation that Cyprian speakethe not off the vsurped authoritie off the Bishopp off Rome besides yt is owt off season dothe rather moue laughter and confirme the enemie in his obstinacie then giue him remedie against his error But what weighethe this word for in our language is it not a causall and rendreth a reason off that which goethe before Whiche yow haue therfore by all lykelihoode lefte owt that this poore shifte might haue some colour the reste is answered before Vnto the next I answere that yt shall appeare when I come to that place whether there be suche reasons or no. In the next sectioÌ he chargeth me in great wordes withe vntruthe and askethe me where I finde in the â3 page this argument that by that there was one offeuerie congregation he prouethe that there was one ouer a whole prouince To whom I answere that in that he concludethe an Archebishopp ouer a prouince vpon Ignatius places whiche speake off a Bishop in euerie churche he makethe the same argument whiche I haue made To the next page 32. being bare denials and false accusations I answere not Vnto the next sect pag. 33. LEauing his vntrue accusations I answere that where he saithe that the case off Luther and Zuinglius off Circumcision and preaching vnto gentilles which I alledged are not like for that they be substantiall pointes of religion and these be not it is his oulde cuckoes songe For we offer to proue this also off the substance off Religion And I browght the examples onely to shew that to be vntrue which he goethe abowt to perswade that all those which contende where the gospell is preached are to be holden for disturbers Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zuinglius did that which they did in strininge abowt the SacrameÌt by consent off theire seuerall magistrates althoughe he dothe not make that appeare yet I aske him what Zuinglius c. should haue done iff the Magistrate would not haue suffred him to answere should he haue suffred the truthe to be destitute off his defence Where he citeth owt off Zuinglius that the gospell is a sworde to deuide the faithfull and therfore that this doctrine which hathe made a diuision in the church can not be good I answere that althoughe he might well saye it to the Anabaptistes and that yt so comethe to passe for the most parte yet that can be no generall rule consideringe that the preaching that circumcision was not necessarie although it deuided those off the church which beleued it from those that did not beleue it yet those which did not beleue it did not ther fore cease to be off the churche and off the numbre off the faithfull The Sermon which our Sauior Christ had amongest his disciples and those that beleued in him touching that his fleshe was the true meate and his bloude the true drinke which who soeuer did not eate and drinke could not haue life in hym did make suche a cut amongest the Disciples that all sauing twelue departed from our Sauiour Christ Yff they made a full departure and Apostasie it is euident that the gospell cureth euen those which be in the church cleane from it yff they did not vtterlie forsake the gospell but offended at that sermon were not as before dailie folowers off our sauior Christ yet it is cleare that that doctrine of the gospell did make apartition betwene the twelue and those other which went there waies in that they beleued that sermon which the other did not they were taught and the other offended Wherupon it foloweth that ether the doctrine which our Sauiour Christ preached was not the truthe or els the truthe may sometimes deuide the faithfull amongest themselues I could cite diuerse other examples bothe owt off the Actes off the Apostles and owt off S. Iohn but these shall suffise to shew the vanitie off M. D. reason And iff he will saye that iff he err M. Zuinglius errethe withe him he is vecelie vnworthy the name off a Deuine that carethe not how ofte he fallethe so he maye fall withe companie Howbeit I haue shewed howe M. Zuinglius sayinge may be vpholden and yet make nothinge for the confirmation off that which he would proue To the next pa. 36. IT fareth withe M. D. as withe malefactors whiche hauing left somethinge behinde them wherby they may be knowen for feare off that whiche foloweth renounce it vtterlie to be theirs But that the conclusion off all thes articles is as I haue set downe that is to saye that the authors off the admonition are either Anabaptistes or in the waye to Anabaptisme albeit he here denie yt I reporte me to the conscience off all those that shall reade him And let his vvordes be considered vvhich be that Anabaptiisme is almost plainely professed in the admonition and so be iudged vvhether I haue trulie gathered his meaning yea or no. I haue spoken so plainelie in that the Answerer maketh so straunge and weroff he requireth more open speache that I can not speake plainlier I vse the wordes which are worne in all schooles and writers which haue occasion to speake off these matters I gaue that which I said light by examples Notwithstandinge he can not see how the Ministerie off England maye be commonlie and for the moste parte vnlawfull and
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌbre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌe of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌre are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off âhe churche lately set forthe where this is answered
at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ pa. 5â he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlââ times ther was a perfecte patruÌ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌdes may doo some thiÌges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌfesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌaundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌt vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌer schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
the coÌparisoÌ is made would haue cleared this margeÌt To the Diuision 4. pag. 84. The Admonition saide that nothinge ought to be established in the church vvhich is not commaunded by the vvorde off God the A offended hewith condemned this sayinge the replie shewethe how the saying of the A. is maintenable namely for that thoughe there be not expresse wordes for euery thinge which may be established yet there are generall commaundementes whereby all thinges which can fall into any Ecclesiasticall consultation are to be directed The A. to mainteine his sodeine and vnaduised condemnation saithe that in those thinges which are varied by time and other circumstances and whereoff there is no precise determination in the worde off god yt is enoughe that they be not against the worde of god So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him they will haue those thinges not onely not to be against the worde but to be grounded vpon the worde and he saiethe it is enough they be not against the worde Wherin iff there were no diuersitie the Ans is in fault which in his greedines off findinge fault condemneth that in the Adm. which he is constreined to allowe off But in deed they are not all one For albeit it can not be but that which is not agreable vnto the worde off God is against the worde off God and off the otherside that which is not against the worde off God is agreable vnto yt yet he that so saithe that certaine thiÌges must be doone not agaiÌst the worde that he wil not also accorde that they should be doone accordinge to the worde gyuethe thereby to vnderstand that there is some star or light off reason or learninge or other helpe whereby some act may be well doone and acceptably vnto God in which the worde off God was shut out and not called to counsaile as that which either coulde not or neede not giue any direction in that behalfe Nowe in this later boocke and in this diuision he saithe that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde And afterwarde saithe that he agreethe vnto this sentence off mine that in makinge orders and ceremonies off the churche it is not lavvfull to doo vvhat men liste but they are bovvnde to follovve the generall rules off the scripture that are giuen to be a squire whereby those are to be squared out And thus in the end the A. is constreined to yelde him selfe to that which he hathe before founde fault with for if nothinge may be doone in makinge orders off the churche but accordinge to the generall rules off the scripture and those generall rules be commaundementes it folowethe that nothinge may be doone in makinges orders for the church but accordinge to the commaundement off god Which is that which the Adm. did set downe And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue that we haue giuen backe in that we confesse certeine orders may be established in the churche which are not expressed in the worde off God I haue shewed howe the Adm. is very vntruely charged with that sentence there beinge neither the same nor the valew off those wordes to be founde in it This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe sides we might haue here shut vp these controuersies sauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes dothe notwithstandinge in deede continue the siedge against it in that all those places which I haue alledged for proof off it he doothe by shamefull and open corruptions essaye to ouerthowe And to the first place whiche is that the wisdome of god in his worde doothe teache men euery good way and therefore the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders and ceremonies in the churche he asketh me in great scorne what that maketh to the purpose in deede to proue that which he vntruly and contrarie to my playne wordes in his answer to al my argumeÌtes surmiseth to be my pourpose that is that no lawe ought to be made in the churche which is not expressed in the worde I say to proue this I graunt it is not sufficient but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church not onely not against the comÌaundement but also accordinge to the commaundement of God which was that which I propounded and he denied it is more sufficient then he is hable to answer His answer also which supposeth this sentence directed vnto princes and magistrates onely belike in that he saithe my sonne is vttered withowte all iudgemeÌt consideringe that Salomon by that title speaketh vnto all the children off god of what callinge soeuer they be as it is manifest by the writer to the Hebrues To the next argument grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul which is nothinge can be doone to the glorie off God withowt ebedience all thinges doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God are withowt obedience therefore nothinge doone withowt the Testymonye off the worde off God can be doone to the Glory off God to this argument which he calleth vndigested he answereth by repetition off my wordes and that Saint Paulâ meaninge is that nothinge be doone against the worde Which how absurde an answer it is when bothe that is the question and I haue expressly vrged the Testimonye off the worde off God to be required let all men Iudge The next argument which he saithe is euill framed is apparant Wheresoeuer faithe is wantinge there is synne in euery action not commaunded faithe is wantinge therfore in euery action not commaunded there is sinne To this be answereth that the wordes off Saint Paul not to be off faithe signifie that we ought to doo nothinge against our conscience Which both is very absurde and ouerthroweth the sense off the Apostle For hauinge shewed that he which doothe any thing doubtingly is condemned he assigneth immediately this to be the reason because he dooth it not off faithe So that the Apostle calleth that doone not off faithe which is doone doubtingly But he is sayde to doo agaynst conscience which hauinge his knowledge and persuasion setled goeth agaynst yt And where he saithe that the wordes going before which are Blessed is he that condemneth not hym selffe in the thing vvhich he allovvethe do proue that sense off his it is spoken withowt all consideration off the place For how commeth yt to passe that he rather referrethe these wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe to this sentence which is farther remoued then to that off doing with dowbte which goeth immediately before yea wherwith it is coupled in the same verse withe a coniunction causall And althowghe the reason sometime be referred vnto that which goethe farther off yet that is bothe rarely and then when by no meanes yt can agree withe that wich goeth immediatelie before Which can not be here considering especially that it could not be vnknowen but that he which dothe against his conscience sinneth wherby the
because contemners are not Idolaters This is his ordinary faulte that he can not vnderstande that iff an Idolater owght to die miche more a contemner of the worde For contempte althowghe yt be not in an action which doothe vtterly ouerturne the seruice of God as Idolatrie but in one which staineth or cracketh yt onely as is the breache off the Sabbothe is yet shewed to be so displeasante vnto the lorde and so detestable that that which off yt selfe was not deadly onely by this circumstance of contempte was punished with presente deathe which may appeare in him that gathered stickes on the Sabothe daye The breache off the sabothe daie was not simplie punishable by deathe as Idolatrie was myche les so small a breache by the gathering off a fewe stickes yet because yt was doone as the scripture saithe in a highe hande that is to saie proudly and contemptuouslie the lorde commaunded that he shoulde be put to deathe and setteth that downe for a generalle lawe How myche more then shall he which despisethe the worde off God which is the rule off the whole bodie off the seruice off God and off that trew reste From our owne workes and from sinne whereoff that bodelye reste was a figure be punished withe deathe And iff because the lawe doothe not saie in thus many wordes that a contemner shall die yt be not lawfull to conclude that he owght to be put to deathe what wil the answerer saie vnto the writer vnto the hebrues which saithe that he that despisethe the lawe off Moses vnder two or three witnesses was put to deathe withowt mercie For by those wordes yt appearethe not onely that a contemner of the lawe off Moses owght by the lawe to die which is that which I sett downe but also that the writer vpon thââ and suche like places as I haue here alledged gathered that whiche is no where in the lawe found in the same wordes wherin he vttereth that sentence Touching the place off Deutronomy which he saithe is onely vnderstaÌded off false witnesse yt is apparaÌt that althowghe yt folowe immediatly the lawe off puttinge a false witnesse to deathe yet it is a generall sentence and hathe regarde vnto all the crimes which are capitall for iff false witnesses be put to deathe and Idolaters or contemners remaine how is the lande purged off the euills whiche drawe the wrathe off God vpon yt or how is a terror stricken into the reste wherby they may be kepte from the infection off that synne And if no punishement but deathe be hable to giue a sounde full enoughe to stricke a sufficiente terror of the synne off false witnes in suche a case how myche more ys yt needefull that there be as brymme and as audible a punishement against Idolaters and contemners of the worde to the ingendring of that feare in others wherby the reste maye be kepte in the feare and trewe worship off the lorde The place off the Chronicles is not answered for yt is more generall then the A. taketh yt and is an exposition off the lawe For where the lawe saithe that he that seruethe straunge Gods shall die this place saithe that he shall die vvhich seekethe not the lorde wher in are comprehended not onely Idolaters but Atheistes and mockers and contemners off God which is that which I had to proue As for that he asketh off the perpetuite off thes lawes yt is afterwarde spoken off In the ende he findeth faulte that I saying there are other punishementes for suche as neglecte the worde of God according to the faulte doo nether tell what they are nor where they be to be founde I thowght that the mowthe of his vnderstanding had not bene so narrowe but yt coulde easely comprehende that if contempte be by the vvorde off God to be punished by deathe that the neglecte off yt owght not to escape the ciuile punishement either in bodie or Godes c. Why I did not recken them vpp I assigned sufficiente cause in that the varying according to the quantitie off the faulte more or les coulde not be sett downe And iff he will see in generall what punishement the lawe of God aloweth of in such cases he may reade in Esra Where beside the punishement off deathe againste the transgressors off the lawe there be also appointed banishement losse of Good or imprisonement as the qualitie off the faute required And if he saye that that vvas doone by the authoritie not off the lawe of God but of a heathen prince the answer is easie that yt is very like that the commission given to Esra and authorised by the kinge vvas drawne by Esra vvhich vvas a cunninge scribe in the lawe of god At the lefte yt is manifeste that he bothe accepted that and amongeste other thinges gaue God thanckes for yt which he wolde neuer haue doone oneles ât had bene a Good interpetation off the lawe in that behalffe considering that euen the ciuill and politike lawes Wherby the Iewes were theÌ and in Iurie especially gouerned ⪠ought to be no other then those which the lorde had prescribed in the lawe And thus let yt be Iudged what Good cause I had to aske vvhat vvas become off the A. iudgement vvhen he set dovvne that there is no Discipline appointed ân the worde off God for those which shall contemne the worde off god and common praiers Diuision 7. pag. 91. THe answerer saide that there was not one worde in the scripture off pulpites or off sytting at the communion in a worde I shewed that ther was And where he saithe the pulpit was placed in open streete That vvas because off their dwelling in tentes the feaste vvheroff they celebrated For otherwise yt appeareth that suche a highe place in the temple owte off the vvhich the voice off him vvhich spake might be hearde vvas ordinary The reason off calling the doctrine of Moses the chaire of Moses by a metonumie off the subiecte For the adiuncte I will leue to the reader to iudge of for my iudgement off them I saide that they are not lightly to be chaunged and he dispurethe against me as if I had saide that yt were not lawfull to chaunge thes vppon any occasion And beside this disputing againste his owne phansie and not against my vvordes he hathe violently broken into the question off reading and interpreting the vvorde off God vvithowt any the leste occasion giuen therof and hathe also shamefully corrupted the place off Nehemias as shall be seene in the proper place 8. Diuision pag. 92. Here he accusethe me of falsifying his wordes whiche haue charged him vvith saying that yt ys an indifferent thinge to preache the worde of God in churches or howses priuately or publikely wherin he still vttereth his forheade harder then any steele For thes being his owne wordes that the scripture speaketh not a worde of preaching or baptizing openly or priuately at home or in the church doothe he not saye
the same that I laye vnto him What ys indifferent yf that be not vvhich the scripture saithe not a vvorde of hathe not prescribed hathe not determined hathe not appointed all vvhiche phrases he vseth as those which signifie the same thinge And when he addethe in the ende that there is none so symple that vnderstandeth not that the churche hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges dooth he not affirme the same for the churche hathe authoritie onely in indifferent thinges to take order So that it is more manifeste then the daie that which I haue charged him with ones he hathe saide twise althowghe not in the same yet in as full vvordes And where he asketh whether yt be all one to saye the scripture hathe not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opeÌly or priuately at home or in the churche and to saye the churche maye make baptisme priuate or publike verelie they are in mine and I thinke in all other indifferent iudgement all one and iff they were not yet as I haue shewed yow haue saide bothe the one and the other And vvhere yow saye that I therby giue the reader to vnderstande that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche to apointe that ther shoulde be no publicke baptisme althowghe I giue no more to vnderstande that then that yow affirme that it is in her power to appointe that ther should be no priuate baptisme yet all men see that this ys at the leste the weight off your wordes that althowghe the churche shoulde abvse her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptisme yet that must be obeied For as when yow saie that the scripture hathe not determined whether the communion shoulde be celebrated sitting standing or kneeling baptisme in fontes basons riuers c. Your meaning is to affirme that iff the churche will haue the communion alwaies receiued kneeling or baptisme alwaies ministred in basone that so it owght to be and neuer either staÌding or sitting or in fontes so in saying that the scripture hathe not determined whether the preaching off the worde shoulde be publike or priuate c. and that the churche hathe the ordering of this thinge yow affirme that if the churche should allwaies ordeine that preaching and baptizing shoulde be priuate that so yt ought to be Iff yow had saide that yt had bene in the churches power according to the former rules prescribed to haue ordered whether preaching and administring the SacrameÌtes shoulde be in the towne or in the fielde in a churche as they call it or in some one mans house or other I wolde haue moued no question againste yow but when yow saye that yt is in the power off the churche to ordeine whether yt should be publike or priuate I can not abide yow for euen in the time of persequution when it is preached in the howse off a priuate man I haue shewed that the churche assembling there the meeting is publike wherunto yow answer not a worde Againste the place I alledged oute off Salomon he excepteth that it is strangelie applied and farr fetched Salomon in the chapter before had shewed how the harlot doothe lye in waite for men secrethe and in the nighte time and so pressed with conscience of the euill which she goethe abowte shunneth the lighte and sekethe secrete corners In the beginninge off this chapter he comparethe the wisdome off God in his worde vnto a noble woman whom he opposethe vnto the Harlot and shewethe How she off the contrary parte doothe not lie in waite or seeke corners or night to hide her selffe in or whisper in the eares off men but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places and corners off streates where the greateste concourse off people is wherupon it may appeare that iff the A. ether will or vnderstanding were at home and not far from him this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpose For iff the worde muste be taught in suche sorte as it maie beste be conueied vnto the knowledge of moste men and leste be charged with the seeking off corners or the couer off the night and yt is manifest that that is better doone when yt is preached publikly then when yt ys preached priuately yt must folowe that by that saying of Salomon yt is prescribed vnto the churche that the preaching owght to be publike And if there be not onely examples off Christe and off his Apostles but also a plaine commaundement as I haue shewed to preache the worde openly then yt folowethe that yf the churche haue power to order whether the worde should be preached publikely or priuately yt hathe power to order contrary to the commaundement of our sauiour Christe And where he saithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately and that a man may exhorte priuately that is nothing to the purpose For we speake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concerne the bodie off the churche and not of the priuate exhortations teachings and admonitions that ether the minister owght to vse towardes the seuerall persons off his flocke or one priuate man towardes another or the father off a howsholde in his familie c. And this is so farre from helping off him that it makethe altogether againste him For as yt is not in the churches power to forbyd thes priuate teachinges admonitions exhortations or to ordeine that thes teachings c. be publike because the lorde hathe commanded theÌ to be priuate so yt is not in her power to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde considering that the lorde also hathe commaunded yt And therfore yt ys vntrew which he set downe that the scripture hathe not determined whether the worde shoulde be tawght priuately or publikely For by priuate men yt hathe determined yt shoulde allwayes be doone priuately by publyke persons also yt shewethe how and in what case yt shoulde be spoken priuately and how and in what case publikely contrary wherunto the churche can not determine and iff she determine a 100. tymes she is not to be obeied And wheras vppon that that neither the place nor the nomber off Persons be off the substance off the wordes and Sacramentes he woulde conclude that it is in the power off the churche to make the preaching and administring off the Sacramentes publike or priuate he maye aswell saie which he saide in his former booke that yt is in the churches power to take order whether men and women shall come clothed or naked to receiued the Sacramentes considering that to come either clothed or naked is not off the substance off the Sacramentes Where he owght to vnderstande that there are diuerse thinges annexed and hanging by which being commaunded by the worde off god are no more in the churches libertie to alter then yt is in her power to change the daye into night Howbeit as I haue shewed that the place otherwise priuate being by the order of the churche appointed for the assemblie off
aduantage considering that bothe the ceremonies are for a greate parte naught and the opinion off the necessitie off them a greate deale wors And Ieromes wordes also in tying the later churches vnto the customes off the ancient which are not against faith albeit they be smoothed by translatinge praesertim namely and with his exposition of matters off faith yet euen as they are set downe off him ouerthrowe the churches libertie in thinges indifferent For althowgh they should be inconuenient and vncomely yet the matter off inconuenience and vncomelines being by the Ans no matter off faith the churche must still be clogged with them nether can it by that rule shake them off There are a fourthe sorte of places owte of the auncieÌte fathers wherin he putteth the greateste confidence and vpon which he hathe laide greateste weight and therfore by handes set ouer againste them moueth the reader to laie sure hould on them Thes places drawne owte off Ambrose vppon the Ephes and of Tertull de virginibus velandis that of Ambrose being as hathe bene shewed very corrupte is also a conterfaite as shall after be noted The other off Tertull is a flat and a plaine Montaniste yt is not vnknowne that Montanus helde that there was no sufficient instruction giuen by the Apostles vnto the churche but that there were onely certeine principles off Religion giuen by them being vnperfect and were afterwarde to be finished and polished by the conforter whiche himselfe did forge This poison Tertullian hauing druncke he lefte the Sauour off yt in diuers places but in no place more brimly then in this which maye appeare by the comparisons he vseth off likening the churche off God in the Apostels time vnto a tree whose fruicte was not blomed and vnto one which is in his base age and the churches after the Apostels times throwghe reuelatioÌs suche as he imaginethe the Apostels were not hable to beare allwaies marching forward towardes a greater ripenes in fruicte and perfection in age And if the D. had bene a litle awakened he might haue smelt the fraude euen in thes wordes which he hathe bene ab vsed by For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuersatioÌ and leading of liffe of a Chirstian then that which hathe bene giuen he might haue iustly suspected the sentence seing the rule off conuersation comprehended in the commaundementes is vnchangeable And when he addeth that that should be doone by the grace off God receiuing increase dailie vnto the ende he did not obscurely touche the head off his error which is that there shall be still vnto the worldes ende greater graces off the spirite off God giuen to the churche generally then hathe bene before in the Apostels tymes Wherbie appeareth that the places which the A. will haue the reader laye so faste houlde of are thornes not to be once touched withowte a hedging gloue in one hande and a hatcheâ in the other We willingly subscribe vnto the Iudgement off M. Caluin alledged here And where the Ans woulde make peradueÌture the reader beleue that by the wordes off pollicie and gouernement lefte to the iudgement off the church Caluin meaneth to make thes pointes in coÌtrouersie at the churches disposition it shall appeare bothe by his seuerall sentences of thes thinges that he holdethe them vnchangeable and by the exposition off M Beza his wordes the same in effect with thes off Maister Caluin which cometh after to be considered It remaineth that seing the answerer woulde oppresse vs with the authoritie off the fathers We consider whether there can be any fitter places browght for the maintenance off the Admonition then the A. hathe alledged for him Augustin VVhether yt be questioÌ off Christe or vvhethet yt be question off his churche or off vvhat thinge soeuer the question be off I say not yf vve but iff an angel from heauen shal tel vs any thinge beside that yovv haue receiued in the scriptures vnder the lavv and the gospell let hym be accursed And lest the Answ should restreine this generall saying vnto the doctrine of the gospell so that he woulde therby shut owte the discipline let him heare what Cyprian saithe The Christian religion saithe he shall fynde that ovvte off this scripture rules off all doctrines haue spronge and that from hence doothe springe and hether doothe returne vvhatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doothe conteine And euen Tertull himselffe before he was imbrued with this heresie off Montanus giueth testimonie vnto the discipline in thes wordes VVe maye not giue our selues this liberty to bringe in any thinge off our vvill nor choose any thinge that other men bringe in off their vvill vve haue the Apostels for autors vvhich them selues brought nothing off their ovvne vvill but the discipline vvhich they receiued of Christe they deliuered faithfully vnto the people And if the sentence were any thinge worthe which he browght in towching the discipline owt off Tertull yt maketh against him For in that he will haue that correction off the discipline to haue the authoritie of the holy goste speaking in his fantastical coÌforter he declareth that it is not a thinge which hangeth vpon the will of mortal meÌ And that in indiffereÌt thinges it is not enowghe that they be not againste the worde but that they be accordiÌg to the worde yt may appeare by other places Wherehe saieth that vvhat soeuer pleasethe not the lorde displeaseth him and vvithe hurte is receiued And in another place he saithe that the scripture denieth that vvhiche yt noteth not And to come yet neerer where he disputeth against the wearing of crowne or garland which is indifferent off it selfe to those which obiecting asked vvhere the scripture saithe that a man might not vveare a crovvne he anwereth by asking vvhere the scripture saithe that they may vve are And vnto theÌ replying that yt is permitted vvhich is not for bidden he answereth that yt is forbidden vvhich is not permitted Whereby appeareth that the argument off the scriptures negatiuely holdeth not onely in the doctrine and Ecclesiasticall discipline but euen in matters arbitrarie and variable by the aduise off the church Where it is not enoughe that they be not forbidden vnlesse there be some word which dooth permit the vse of them yt is not enoughe that the scripture speaketh not against them vnlesse it speake for them and finally where yt displeaseth the Lorde which pleasethe hym not one must off necessitie haue the worde off his mouthe to declare his pleasure Whether I commonly vse to propounde thinges in controuersie in bare affirmacions or denials withowt reason and whether yowe applie the scriptures better then I and howe true yt is that yowe haue in yower former booke alledged more scriptures then I did in mine all which thinges this glosse affirmeth I leaue yt to the Iudgement off the reader Cap. 3. Diuision 1. pag. 100. IN the first whole page there is nothing to be answered yt being shewed
compasse off the law as can be the A. in imagining that vve haue no word for diuers thinges wherein the Iewes had particular direction presupposeth gteater perfection in the lawe gyuen vnto the Iewes then in that vvhich is left vnto vs And that this is a principal vertue off the lawe may be seen not onely by that I haue shewed that a conscience well instructed and towched with the feare off God seeketh for the light off the word off God in the smallest actions but euen by common reason the masters whereoff giue this rule ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã that is to saie that yt greatly behoueth those lavves vvhich are vvell made as muche as can be to determine of all thinges and to leaue as fevve thinges as may be to the discretion off the iudges Where he saithe that the examples I browght off orders vvhich the Iewes did vvell obserue vvhereoff there was no expresse mention in the lawe off God make not to the pourpose for that he spake off ceremonies vsed abowt the worship off God I answer that that vvhich I haue alledged is a manifest confutation off those wordes which he hathe set downe nether was ther the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the lawe For are not these thinges vvhich I browght example off to be doon in the church are they not Ecclesiasticall orders yea are not part off them which he denieth perteining to the seruice off God Yf these orders off the howre for the morning and afternoone sacrifice off preaching the vvord off God in a place vvhere yt may be best hard off fasting for the better humbling off the people before the lord in praier be not orders and Ceremonies perteining to the worshipp off God then the daylie sacrifices preaching the vvord off God and calling vppon his name vvhereunto these belonged are no partes off the worshipp off God then the vvhich there is nothing more absurde And verily this is not by iugling or sleight off hand to deceiue the eyes off the reader but by flat facing to endenour to make hym tourne them from the truthe That vvhich I said off the Iewes Ecclesiasticall gouernement by the morall and Ceremoniall lawe onely and not by the iudiciall as that vvhich may be cast downe with reasons owt off the vvord of God vvhich is here onely doon by autoritie of men I am vvell content it fall So that I haue no fault to finde vvith the Ans in this behalfe but that the vveapon he strooke this vvith all vvas not sharp enoughe Diuision 5. pag. 120 c. Of the nomber off thinges vvhich the Iewes had not particulerly decided by the lawe the reason is apparant vvhich I haue assigned that this hyndereth not but that there is a vvord and generall commandement to direct them by hath bene shewed that it is a vaine cauill that maketh doubt whether in saying that vve haue the same lavves to direct vs in the seruice off God vvhich the Ievves had I meane the Ceremoniall lawe or no appeareth by that vvhich I set downe in the third diuision p. 118. vvhere I receiuing the morall lawe for our direction left the Ceremoniall and of the same sort is that vvhich he vvrangleth in becawse I saie the nevve Testament is a noble addition vnto the ould considering that I adding vvherein namely that it maketh the ould more manifest and bringeth greater light shut owt all euen the least occasion off suche trifling And this maner of speach that I haue vsed Maister Caluin vvhich is here opposed hath him selff vsed Where he calleth in this respect the gospell an addition vnto the lavve yt remaineth to see vvhether in the matter off the iudiciall lawe that vvhich I haue set downe be straunge and daungerous as the A. surmiseth or no. It is not as the A. surmiseth vntruly that the magistrate is simply bound vnto the iudicial lawes off Moses but that he is bound to the equitie which I also called the substance and marrowe off them In regard off vvhich equitie I affirmed that there are certen lawes amongest the Iudicialles which can not be chaunged And hereof I gaue example in the lawes vvhich command that a stubbern Idolater blasphemer murtherer incestuous person and suche like should be put to death For the first point that the equitie of the iudicialls doth remaine aÌd therfore owght to be a rule to direct al lawes by to let passe the autoritie of M. Caluin M. Beza and other writers off our time that haue writen with any iudgement off this matter which doo in plaine wordes affirme that there is a perpetuall equitie in them and that our lawes albeit they differ in forme yet owght to reteine the reason or ground of them I saie to let that passe yt is to be considered that all these lawes morall Ceremoniall and Iudiciall being the lawes off God and by his reueled will established must so far forth remaine as yt appeareth not by his will that they are reuoked And seing that the alteration which is come in this behalfe is by the comming off our Sauiour Christ onely yt is to be inquired what those lawes are which he put end vnto Which thing may be considered in that diuision which Saint Paul vseth where he saith that our Sa. Christ came to make peace first betwene God and men and then betwene men and men that is to say betwene the Iewes and Gentils The Ceremoniall lawe therefore beinge a lawe of enimitie which as a wall held owt the Gentils from ioyning them selues vnto the Iewes was necessary amongest other cawses in this respect to be taken away The curse off the lawe for the breache of any the lawes of god ether perteining to the Iewes in tymes past or vnto vs nowe being that which maketh the wall betwene the Lord and vs was for our reconciliation with his maiestie necessarily to be remoued Wherevppon followeth first that the morall lawe as that which nether hindereth our reconciliation with the Lord not our good agreement with men is in as full strenght as euer it was before the comming of our Sauiour Christ For the curse off the lawe beside that it is in regard off the elect rather fulfilled and executed in the persone off our Sa. Christ then abrogated beside that also yt hath a necessary vse as yet towardes the elect not onely to driue them to the faith which is in Christ Iesus but also to kepe vnder the remantes of rebellion euen of them which haue already beleued and beside that the force thereoff is daily aÌd shal be for euer execured vpon the wicked beside all this seing this curse was annexed not onely to the breache off the morall lawe but also off the Ceremoniall and Iudiciall there is no iuste cause why the morall lawe should be sayde to be abrogated At the least it can not stand which the Ans hathe very daungerously set downe that the whole lawe off god generally is
diuersitie betwene the lawe and the Gospell whiche I haue alledged maye be fetched from those lerned men whiche handle this poincte yt is enowghe for me so to haue helped the answerer owte withe that whiche he trauailed with that I haue not onelie shewed howe this cause is nothinge hindered but greatly helped therby Yff the plaine wordes off the Prophete Zacharie will not serue for our pourpose what shall become off your cause that hathe neuer a worde of the scripture let vs then heare why it will not serue Because forsoothe by that meanes the parentes shoulde haue powre of deathe vppon their children and therfore their muste some other sense be sowgthe then that vvhiche the vvordes doo proporte Wherunto I answere that Moses shewinge vvhat owghte be doone agaiÌste those false teachers whiche goe abowte secretly to vvithdrawe froÌ the trewe worship of God saithe that allthoughe he be his brother his sooÌe his dawgther or his wiffe he shal not spare but fill them Tell men owe I praie yow doothe not Moses meane there truly and as his vvordes sounde that the false teacher shall die If yow dare not denie yt then yow see yowr reason vvhiche yow heere assigne is nothing vvorthe for there also yt is commanded to the father to kill his sonne Now if yow liste to lerne yow maye perceiue that by thes vvordes vnderstanded simplie there is no powre giuen to one priuate man to kil another nor for the parente as a priuate man to kill his children but this manner off speache is grounded vppon the lawe off God vvherby yt vvas prouided that the witnesse vvhiche had accused shoulde throwe the firste stone againste the conuicted person for so muche therfore as boothe Moses and Zachary after Moses wil haue the father accuser of his owne childe if the knowledge off his inticemente to Idolatrie remaine vvithe him alone therfore also they ascribe the killinge of the giltie person vnto them as a thinge belonginge vnto the dewtie off the accuser But seeinge this sense please the yow not let vs heere what yow bringe Yf saithe he yow will referre yt to the tyme of the gospell then this is the true meaninge if to the time off the lawe then that Yf al be gospell yow speake vve muste needes beleue yow ⪠yf your wordes haue no further aucthoritie then yow gyue them by Good reason and conference off the scriptures then castinge a waye the sense whiche hathe warrante off the manyfeste wordes off the Scripture yow shoulde haue confirmed by substanciall argumentes that whiche yow haue set downe The prowde Sorbonistes and Magistri nostri off Paris did neuer vsurpe a more absolute auctoritie and more owte off rule then this is And yt is to bringe in an intollerable Tyrannie into the churche off God and lordeshippe not to be abydden Whiche when I vnderstande off all interpretations off men be they neuer so lerned and sharpe muche more off suche wooden interpretations whiche the answerer thruste the vppon vs But tell me Good Sir what difference is there betwene yowr firste interpretation and yowr seconde For iff vnder the gospell it be lawfull as yowr exposition suppose the for parentes to kyll ther children whiche shall prophecey falsely what leue yow to the Iewes wherin they differ from the Christians and tell me also howe yow differ herin from that whiche I set downe that Idolatrie ovvghte to be punished vvithe deathe vnder the gospell But pardon me I thinke I see yowr difference which is that the Iewes muste doo yt accordinge to the lawe off Moses and the Christians accordinge to the lawe off whome why kepte yow backe that Surely iff the Christians be bounde to doo yt as yowr interpretation saythe they are bounde to doo yt by the lawe off Moses for I knowe no other lawe off preceptes but that There is yet another difference whiche yowr wordes maye gyue suspicion off that is that the Christian parentes shoulde rather put them to deathe then be withdrawne by them so that the Iewes haue a symple commaundemente to put them to deathe but the Christians haue yt vnder condition yf they can not otherwise kepe still the trewe worshippe off god But where and in what shopp is this difference coyned Whose Image and superscription beare the yt the Doctors What Paules no Whitgyftes I knowe him not yt is not good For howe shall they be sure they shall not be withdrawne by him onles they procure hym to be put to deathe And althowghe they were owte off perill off beinge withdrawen how are other prouided for whome he maye corrupte And yff it were possible that poison which he hathe coulde not hurte any other where is the reuenge off Godds glorye whiche hathe bene dishonored by suche false teachinge and in the maintenance vvheroff the zeale off the children off God aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the lawe dothe consiste Thes differences betwene his interpretacions he giueth incklinge off but the folye off them was so apparante that he durste not laye them open And althowge vve haue alredy to manye interpretations by one yet here comethe the thirde And this is an allegorie whiche expoundeth killinge confutinge Where firste the answerer shoulde haue remembred that he condemned in the Admonition allygoryinge as Papistical vvhiche in deede is not so muche Papisticall as Anabaptisticall allbeit they fetched their allegorie from two famous men maister Hoper and Maister Alasco Here yt is Catholike in him that was there Papisticall in them then obserue Good reader howe he that chalenged the Admo For makinge the holy scripture a nose off wax and me that I make yt yt a shipmans hose hathe here set vpp three interpretations off one and the same place Off vvhiche althoughe neuer a one can stande vvith a nother yet becawse he thinkethe they all make for him he stickethe not euen to strike hym selffe to gyue a pricke vnto the truthe And as for maister Luther I answere withe Ierome whiche albeit he did not so well practise it him selfe yet in one place of the smaller Prophetes that cometh not now to my minde saithe that to seeke for an alligorie vvhere a Plaine and litterall sense maie be had is to seeke a knotte in a rishe Seinge therfore the scripture meaneth here as it speaketh and calleth a spade a spade and a figg a figg to expounde killinge confuttinge and corporall vveapons spirituall and heretikes heresies is by Maister Luthers Good leaue owte off season Futhermore if Maister Luther shoulde by confutinge off their herysies shut owte the corporall punishmente off deathe he hath the Answ interpretation whiche he calleth theÌ true meaninge off the place for enemie So that either maister Luthers meaninge was that they shoulde not onely put them to deathe but also confute their heresies or els yt serueth as well to ouerthrowe that whiche the answerer hathe set downe as that which we mainteine But obserue here I beseche yow the shamfull practise off the Answ If Maister Caluine or
men beare witnes that bothe here and almoste euery where yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader And althowghe I am fully perswaded that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine yet if any weare it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill hathe without repentance borne his punishemente and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped Yt maie not be passed by that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections matched the lawes off the Iewes whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe vvithe the lawes of the moste barbarous and Prophane Tyrant that euer was suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of god Note also that where I saie that I vvill ioyne vvithe him that the transgressions off the lavve vnder the gospell are to be seuerelyer punished then they vvere vnder the lavve He in pretendinge and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne slyppethe me clean a syde and saythe that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses for the manner off punishinge as thowghe that were any thinge like that whiche I propounded And in that he answerethe no one worde to the two reasons whiche I alledged that is to saye for that bothe the knovvledge off the lavve is greater novve then theÌ and other gyftes off the spirite off God vvherby the lavve shoulde be better kepte more aboundantly povvred oute novve then then he dothe not onely slyppe a side but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me Nowe to returne backe to the Diuis pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is vvhich requireth answer of that which hath been so often answered In the next Diuis p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding and defining he maketh him selffe pytifull to all that euer saluted that scoole For what an absurd saying is yt that becawse the definition off a generall thing agreeth vnto his particular therfore yt is the definition off the particular As though euery thing vvhich vvere verefied of an other were by and by the definition off it or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition of the generall and of the speciall And what a miserable defence of his diuisioÌ is yt which to proue that his three last partes are not conteined vnder the first alledgeth that they are not all one with the first But as I promised I will leaue this to the learned reader that I leese not the tyme in confuting off these tryfles The rest off his section is answered before In the next beside the sentence which I denie and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies thinges are to be vsed in the church which are not conteined in the scriptures ⪠There is nothing which maketh any thing vnto the questioÌ For where he saieth that I mislike that of Zuing. If they be not repugnant to the vvord I haue tould him before that I neuer found fault with that but becawse he condeÌned the Ad. which will haue theÌ caste in the mould off the word off god And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here off discipline left in the order off the church and that some thinges doon off the Apostles are not alvvaies to be follovved off vs whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue that he meaneth this off the pointes of discipline nowe debated yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing vppon Maister Bezaes booke off epist. Which declareth in so many places and wordes that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable and precisely determined in the word off God and howe he maketh the partes thereoff the same which the D. fighteth against with might and maine he would paraduenture saie that he could take no notice off that which was not yet brought to light But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections the right institution off Deacons c. as necessarye which he will haue arbitrarie he owght to haue vnderstanded that those thinges which M. Beza noteth vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church are nothing lesse then these which he would insinuate Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes that leaueth yt not in the churches power ether who shall gouerne or what they ought to doo which must gouerne but howe that gouernement which is prescribed may be vsed most decently in regard off circumstance off time c. For euen in that place the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline as that vvemen ought not to speake in the church c. declared sufficiently that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church in her owne disposition and order But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate off the Election off the church where this here spoken generally shall there belaied open by example the reste off this Diuis is answered In the next Diuis I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes As for the defense he maketh to proue Truly and Purely all one for so he must if he mainteine his answer the first reason he bringeth that a man may preache true thinges and not truly is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ for to ouerthrowe that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. that the word is not truly preached becawse the Ministers are not duely called he saithe that the reason is not Good becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth yet he may preache the true word off God. Here ether the Ans must make to preache true thinges and to preache truly all one or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse The other is for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe for syncerely Wherein beside the former fault which is the contrarietie with him selfe he should haue learned that that maner off speach is taken off the Ebrues which as they call a lie not onely that which is spokeÌ but that which is doon or imagined against the truthe so likewise contrary Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge is fondly and out off time pretended considering also that the translatioÌs in our tounge as in others haue shunned that phrase as that which they could not reache vnto Tract 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister Cap. 1. Diuis 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation THe replie standeth vpon the certeine and vnfallible grounde off the worde off God which is that the
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knoweÌ And considering that as yt comethe comoÌly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to theÌ althowghe they vvere well knowne to others TheÌ the questioÌ is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinacioÌ Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more theÌ once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhoÌ the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they caÌ by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweeÌne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his sonÌe beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more streÌght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumeÌtes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatioÌs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
to admonishe those to whom the election off the ministers belongeth to tell them what maner a one owght to be chosen if that be not yet ys not this necessary to commend the election of the minister of the worde to the praiers of those whiche are presente at the election And where as he saithe that yt being extraordinary is not off necessitie to be followed he should haue saide that being extraordinary yt owght not to be followed Now vvhen he graunteth them to be suche as may be vsed althowghe not necessaryly he concludeth against him selfe that they are not extraordinary for as those thinges whiche are ordinarie in the worde off God owght to be followed so those thinges that are extraordinary are by no meanes of vs withowt an extraordinary spirite to be followed thinges whiche may be doone or lefte vndoone are nether ordinary nor extraordinari but haue a meane nature betweene bothe But as it is in in prouerbe the egle ketcheth no flies Maister D. hathe greater matters in hande then thes and yet to keepe the proprietie of speche profiteth muche to the keping off the pure nes of doctrine But the wordes off maister Caluine saithe he are plaine So they are in deede plaine to shewe your great vntreuth and plaine to shewe that which I contende for that is that althowghe some thinges are not to be followed yet other some thinges in this election are and owghte to serue for the direction off the election off the ministers nowe And because you shall not abuse the reader nether with the deniall off thinges to be so which are manifest nor guilfull escapes wherwithe yow goe aboughte to defeate the autorities which I alledge although yt be muche against my will to lenghthen my booke with translating so thicke and three folde of other mens sentences into mine yet being driuen to yt I had rather be somewhat troublesome to the reader then that yowr vnhonest practises shoulde not appeare to all that will not willingly close there eyes against the truthe But before I cum to maister Caluine I will set downe Cyprians wordes which are there commended by maister Caluin Cyprian therfore speaking off the election of a Minister writethe amongest other thinges thus God commandeth that the preyst shoulde be placed before the face off the vvhole congregation off the Ievves that is to say he dothe teache and shevve that the ordeininges off the ministers ovvghte not to be made but vvithe the knovvledge of the people standing by vvherby they being presente either theyr faultes shoulde be discouered or their vertues commended and so it may be a iuste and a lavvfull ordination vvhich is by the voyces and iudgemeÌtes of all examined The vvhiche after vvard according to the dyuine mastershippe or authoritie is obserued in the Actes off the Apostels vvhere Peter speaketh vnto the people off ordeining a bishop into Iudas place Off which place fyrst yt appeareth that the people not onely had but oughte to haue to doo in the appointing off there minister and that not by any custome or decree off men but by the eternall worde off God bothe in the olde and newe Testament Also that theyr right consisteth bothe in examining the life off him which is to be chosen and in the approbation off him yff they like off him or refusall iff they like him not which Cyprian proueth bothe by the 20. off the numbers by this place and the sixte off the actes which he also citeth Now I come to maister Caluin After he hathe in the 13. section shewed that the election off the Apostell into Iudas place is no certaine rule for our elections he sheweth further whearin yt is no rule namely for that the election there was committed to lotte the vocation off an Apostell so requiring that by the iudgement off the lotte as yt were by Gods owne mowthe a successour might be appointed in steed off Iudas But in the 14. section he sheweth the lorde so approuethe off the iudgment off men vvhich he after expoundeth the churche that euen in the Apostels appointement vvhich haue this prerogatiue that they shoulde be created immediatly from God the iudgment off the churche shoulde not be passed by and to that endecitethe the 13. off the actes and 2. verse and this place off the first off the actes and 23. verse and off those places gathereth a perpetuall document to establishe the discipline and order off the churche in elections for euer Whearby appeareth that maister Caluins minde is not as the doctor woulde make vs beleue that ther can nothing be gathered out off this place perteining to our elections Afterward confuting them which vppon the places off Timothy and Titus gooe abowte to proue that the election off the ministers is in the Bishopps powre he saithe thus VVel therfore sayd CyPrian vvhyle he contendeth that yt commeth off the authoritie off god that the minister shoulde be chosen the people being presente in the eies off all and shoulde be by the coÌmon iudgment and testimonie approued vvorthy and fitt And forth with reciting Cyprians vvordes before alledged and quoting this place off the Actes he concludeth in this sorte vvee haue therfore saith he that this is the lavvfull vocation by the vvorde off God vvhere those vvhich are chosen are appointed by the consent and approbation off the people Here againe yt is manifest that Maister Caluine vseth this place off the Actes to proue that the election owghte not to be withowte the approbation and consent off the people Furthermore speaking against the popishe election for that in yt all is in the pleasure off the bishoppe He citeth Leo and Cyprian which proue that by the worde off God the church owghte to haue her interest in the election off the minister and many Synodes which dooe severely prohibite suche elections and if they be made commaund that they shoulde be off none effect Then concludeth yff thes thinges be trvve there is this day in poperie no canonicall election nether by Godes nor by any ecclesiasticall lavve And if there vvere nothing els hovve can they excuse them selues that they haue spoiled the churche off her righte And so goeth forthe with confuting off the same reasons off the Papistes which are afterwardes alleadged off the doctor This may be sufficiente to let the reader vnderstande howe the Ans woulde shamefully abuse him with the authorytie off M. Caluin Wherin I doe not forget that in going abowte to proue that this place off the Actes hathe place in diuers pointes in the ordinary election I haue together with those places belonginge to the examinatioÌ pressed also those which touche the election yt selffe Which I did pourposely that I myghte not be compelled to set downe thes places againe a litell after Where yt beinge alleged for the election which is here alledged for the examination receiueth the same answere off the S. which this doothe Vnto my reason in the second Diuision that if an
greatly in suspition off error It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one be trewe for the moste parte which is the nature off a prouerbe And in makinge off lawes the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expedieÌte and not that whiche maie be good some times For otherwise it might be saied the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election but his chapleine because yt may happen that he is more hable to medle in that matter then the bishoppe It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God to accounte off yt as off an ignorante multitude For onlesse yowe meane the churche when yowe saye then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant yowe speake beside the matter seing wee doe not permitte either examination or election off the ministers to euery multitude and blinde assemblie but vnto those onely whiche make an open and cleare profession off the trewthe Therefore yowre glorious and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes are affectioned and aspire somewhether For yf they preceded off the feare off God yt can not be but that feare of God and spirite of humilitie whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche whose seruantes they owghte to be And when yow saie or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche the voice is straunge and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt especially seinge it touchethe as yowe thinke the cause But yowe wander still and the prouer be yowe confute not For let yt be that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche whiche proportion beinge more vnequall then that betwene the sonne and the mone carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good yet if the churche haue anie eie at all that beinge ioined with his will see better then his alone And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe not to compare one good eie with manie bad but to shewe that that whiche alone iâ hable to doe somewhat withe company and helpe is hable to doe it better And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte that he can leaue no thinge vnseene and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe yowe haue yet browghte nothinge to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others in the examination off the minister S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the churche off God in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese Apollos was instructed and tawghte of a powre handycraftes man and his wiffe In the counsell of Nice a simple man and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe bothe ouerturned aÌd turned a Philosopher whome all the 318. Bishopes coulde not moue bothe S. Paule and Apollos and the 318. Bishopes were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges wherin they were aided and desired to be aided off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off that they can see so clearly into the fitnes off a minister that the churche off God can not bothe see that whiche they see and that also whiche they haue ouerseene Belike yt is because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte then euer any were and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before And if the churches were tawghte of them wherein they are for the moste parte smalliest beholdinge vnto them as the plentifull knowledge of the churche shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation Which yff it were well considered of him yt semeth that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise Still yowe confute your shadowe for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhich is to be chosen all the reste vvhich haue interest in that election vvill giue theyr voices What worde is here which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections which are made by her selfe alone yowe haue therfore picked a quarel to speake off the welbestowing of offices onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes I see no ende of yt sure I am yt is no answere vnto that which yt pretendeth For my parte I will not contrary that yow speake of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince And I am well assured that some of them be bestowed of moste worthye men But yt is good for princes to haue as it were eares off horne againste suche sweete songes as these be and notwithstanding them to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the comÌon wealth for the Ecclesiasticall charges which her maiestie bestoweth althowghe they be off the greateste porte yet they will appeare not off the greatest charge vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely that is to saye great charge and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche not bearinge the churche but borne of yt euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe And those also as I thinke are not chosen off the prince alone but named onlie and chosen off the canons off that sea wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe and confirmed off the Archbishoppe But lett yt be here obserued that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing although falsely without saying any thing against yt to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes whiche he taketh head ministers muche more maie he doe it in the other ecclesiasticall orders which he accounteth vnder the bishope here first I woulde knowe wether he will stande to this or no or whether hauing nothinge to answere he vsed this for a shifte Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte this translatioÌ of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate aÌd whether for there teÌporalties as it wer for a messe of rise potage they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated to be offered where yt is not asked to be geuen where it is not receiued And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be that they maie kepe thother or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe The election off ministers committed
into the churche and make off the hande and the eie vvhiche are twoo members but one Vnles yow vvill saie that he that is promoted from one Ecclesiasticall degree vnto another kepethe the same still vvhich he had before he vvas promoted by which reason the bishope and the Archbishope are deacons also because they sometimes had that degree And then yt is required off them that they doe the offices off all those functions the names Wheroff they beare for there are no idle and voide names in the churche whiche can be seuered from doinge the dewties that those titles require And it is as if a man passinge from one office or dignitie in the common wealth vnto an other vntill he come to the highest beinge in that office or dignitie shoulde be saide still to haue all the vnder offices and dignities by the vvhich he hathe passed And not that onely but vvhen a man from priuate estate is called ether to office in churche or common welth together with the publike parson vvhiche he hath gotten he kepeth his priuate estate still Yt hathe bene sometimes I graunte that either throwghe ignorance off the institution of God or throwghe ambition of some which desire to haue all in their owne handes or vpon some extreme necessitie the pastor hathe donne that whiche belongeth to the office off a deacon and contrariwise But althowghe I should graunte that one might be ordeined to be bothe Pastor and Deacon whiche is as monstruous in Theologie as yt is in nature that one and the same shoulde be halfe a man and halfe a woman yet yow helpe not your selfe that way For in sayinge that he may be a minister of the worde yow confesse that he may be also none but a deacon onely whereoff also there are examples iâ in our churche Last off all those Archedeacons which haue the degree off a pastor in our churche do not examine by that they are Pastors but onely in respecte that they be Archedeacons And so whether he be pastor or deacon together or deacon onely the disorder remaineth still that the inferior and he whose callinge is contented with smaller giftes is made iudge off his sufficiency whiche is superior and vvhose callinge requirethe greater giftes Whether the Archedeacon haue the examination committed vntho him onely I referre me vnto the booke off ordering ministers and to that whiche I haue before alledged Here I vvould haue the reader mark that this disorder of ordeininge ministers at the testimonie off an Archedeacon came from Rome as Ierome bothe notethe and confuteth This reason is altogither different from the seconde For althowghe he were by neuer so many and neuer so well examined yet were it vnlawfull for the Bishop to admit him as this third reason dothe suppose that is to saie vppon the credit of the Archedeacon vvithovvt his ovvne knovvledge vvhiche I doo not gather off the wordes off the Archedeacons presentation as yow would make me but off the answere of the bishop Take heede that the persons vvhom yovv present vnto vs be apte and meete for their godly conuersation to exercise their ministeri devvly to the honor off God and edifyinge off the churche vvhich vvordes vvhether they haue that sense vvhiche I alledge I leaue to all men to iudge off the forme off the vniuersities presentation helpethe yow not because there is no suche answere made by them againe vnto the presenter vpon whiche I grounde my argument and yt maketh muche against yow For I dowte not but that forme of presentation by some one of that facultie wheroff the presented person is was therfore browght in because neither all the vniuersitie to whom he is presented nor the vicechauncelor off whom he is to be admitted can allwaies take knowledge off his sufficiency for the degree he asketh As the vicechancelor beinge a lawier neither he nor diuerse other off the vniuersity off them selues are able to iudge whether he be meete to practise in phisike but are driuen to stay vpon the faithe off the presenter so that yow likening herein the Archedeacons presentation to the vniuersities doo therby confirme that bishops admittance is oftentimes suspended off the trust of the Archedeacon I would yow had that reuerence of the holie scriptures that yow pretend often we should then passe this controuersic easely But for the place wheroff it is said I make a shipmans hoose yt shall be seene how trwly yow haue spoken For the declaration wheroff I take the 10. verse off that chap. For when S. Paul saith let them first be tried and then minister yt is as muche as he should saye that he should not applie them to the ministery before they were tried Whereupon I conclude that if that place commaunde Timothe that he shoulde not applie any to the ministerie before triall the same implieth that he should trie them for so muche as any other mans triall withowt his owne is no triall wherupon he might proceede to the applyinge of them to the ministery especially considering that otherwise he should offend against that which he forbiddeth in another place off sodeine laying on of handes And if it be said that it is to be vnderstanded of the deacons the answere is that iff he commaunde that off the deacons election muche more he requirethe it in the Bishops And wheras he saithe I am still contrary to my selfe I aske him wherin In that forsoothe I therby conclude that the bishop should be the examiner where did I euer denie it But if he thinke any thinge grow vnto the lord bishops or that therfore the bishopp alone may examine and ordeine because I graunt that he hathe interest in booth he hathe ouercast the summe is not so great To shew that the same owght to be the examiners that are the chusers it is sufficient to haue shewed it in one the law beinge the same in all which is in one That it can not be restreined vnto Timothy alone which S. Paul commaundeth him to doo and that he was no bishop but an Euangelist shal be handled hereafter Yow that charge me with contrarietie wher there is no coulor must be here this second time admonished off off this faulte in this short section for in affirminge not once nor twise that those thinges which touche the election is that epistle are spoken vnto Timothe alone yow affirme that plainly whiche yow denie vnto me that is that S. Paul maketh the same the ordeiners and examiners Salamon saith that all the vvordes of the mouthe off god are plaine to him that vvill vnderstand and streite to them that vvould finde knovvledge Wherfore I meruaile not if the answer because be would so faine haue a broad vvay wher he may driue a sumpter horse and is nor conteÌt with the lordes path waie finde many difficulties and stoppes But alas what paines he taketh in liftinge at a fether And of the three difficulties that are here moued two of them whiche are towchinge triall
cum dovvne from heauen declaringe therby that the receiued opinion off them was that the ordinarie Goddes were in heaueÌ For yt is not to be dowted but they had the images of Iupiter and Mercurie whiche they worshipped in that place and yet they did not take them for their Goddes but Imagined that the Goddes wherof those vvere the Images were in heauen Nowe this that euery dronken poete and boy c. can tell to be otherwise let vs see whether graue learned sober aÌd ancieÌte diuines doo not plainely confirme Augustine vvhich is here alledged to proue that the gentils did take the verie images them selues to be their goddes shewethe that the verie vulgare and grossest sort of Idolaters coulde answere vvhen they vvere rebuked of their Idolatry and heathenishe vvorship that they vvorshipped not the visible image but that vvhich dvvelt inuisibly in it and that they off the finer sort answered that they neither vvorshipped the image nor any spirite in the image but by that bodelie image did beholde the signe off that thinge vvhich they ovvght to vvorship M. Caluin answeringe vnto the Papistes obiection that their images are not takeÌ for goddes saith thus Nether vvere the Ievves saith he so vnvvise that they did not remember that it vvas God by vvhose hande they vvere brovvght ovvte off Aegypte before theye made the calfe yea vnto Aaron sainge that those vvere their goddes vvhich brovvghte them ovvte of Aegypte they did vvithovvte staggeringe consente gyuinge therby to vnderstande assuredly that they vvoulde kepe still the same God for their deliuerer so that they mighte see him goo before them in the calfe Nether is it to be thovvghte that the Gentils vvere so blockishe that they did not vnderstande that God vvas some other thinge then vvood or stone For they changed their images ofteÌtimes and yet kept the same goddes still in there mynde and their vvere many Images set vpp to one God neither did they therfore accordiÌg to that multitude imagine many Goddes Besydes that daily they consecrated nevve Images and yet they thovvghte not therfore that they made nevve Goddes And towardes the ende off that sectioÌ he vvritethe thus Notvvithstandinge boothe the Ievves vvere Persvvaded that vnder suche Images they vvorshipped the eternall god the one trevve lorde off heauen and earthe and the Gentils also that by them they vvorshipped their goddes althovvghe false yet vvhiche they imagined to haue their abode in heauen And in the beginninge off the tenth section Those vvhiche denie that this vvas doone in tymes paste and is doon in our age lye impudentlie And towardes the latter ende off that section vnto the Papistes obiecting that they doo not call the images their godds he answerethe Neither did either the Ievves or Gentils so in times paste and yet the Prophetes in euery place did not cease to caste in theyr teathe fornicatioÌ vvith vvood and stone onely for the things vvhiche are dayly doone of those vvhich vvil be counted Christians that is to saie for that they vvorshipped God carnally in vvood and stone Nowe take awaie that which yow haue partly in your glose and partly in your texte moste vntrewly surmised and shew me one worde in all this section vvhiche yow haue made such horrible owtecries off that Maister Caluin doothe not speake more fullie then I. For where in your glosse vpon my wordes And vvho knovveth not that they thovvghte that by them and in them they vvorshipped the God vvhiche made heauen and earthe yow note in the mergente a grosse error making me to affirme that all the Gentills beleued that God made heauen and earthe yow change not your skin stil yow seeke aduaÌtage by falshoode For tell me are thes all one they thovvghte they vvorshipped God vvhiche made heauen and earthe and they they thowghte that God made heauen and earthe When it is saide that the Papistes thinke they swallowe Christe whiche onelie sittethe at the righte hande off God doth one affirme that the Papistes thinke that Christe sittethe onelie at the righte hande off God For when there are two propositions there Wheroff the one is that the Gentills thowght they worshipped God the other that that God made heauen and earthe the Answ woulde make them as one But vvhat a veration off spirite is it to haue to doo withe one which either knoweth not vvhat the valewe off a proposition is or els knovvinge doothe so shamfully vvrest yt Yet the other vvhich he ascribethe vnto me in his texte is yet farther from honest dealinge For he askethe me whether iupiter Apollo c. were goddes whiche created heauen and earthe as if I had giuen any occasion of that question He addethe and asketh whether they were thowght to haue made heauen and earthe To vvhom I haue answered before that the wordes importe no suche thinge neither had I either in that proposition or in any before made mention off Iupiter or Appollo c. And if I shoulde answere that Iupiter was thowghte off some abused by fables of the Poetes to haue made heauen and earthe What woulde folowe therof I saie therfore againe that take awaye your vntrew additions and there is nothinge set downe off me which Maister Caluin dothe not precisely affirme And that which I haue set downe owte off Maister Caluin I coulde recite as fully and as plainly owte off Maister Musculus which I omite For your places which yow haue heaped together here I knowe them wel and had theÌ before me when I wrote Yow gyue me them in grosse withowte applyinge yow either coulde frame no argumente of them or feared the answer I can not examin all those chapit which yow giue me oneles I woulde write a whole booke off that matter onelie Yow take vp the Adm. becawse they applie not their scripturs and frame not their argumeÌtes yet they let not yow wander in the vvhole chapiter but gaue one verse to speake vnto I muste also admonishe yow to beare more reuerence vnto the scripture then to confounde yt vvith Baruche and especially vvith the storie off Bell and the Dracon if yow vvill not be admonished I vvill desyre the reader to take heede off suche confusion there being as much differeÌce betwene the one and the other as betwene heauen and earthe God and man. Why is this the profe yow promise in your glose wherby yow saide yt shoulde appeare to be vntrewe that I alledged Those greate vvordes made me hope after some stronge reasons yff we will folowe hym here he vvill leade vs the ready waie to the popishe transubstantiation For he stickethe in the very vvorde and vvill admit no sacramental speache and therfore vvhere the arke is called the lorde off hostes the kinge off glorie in his diuinitie yt muste needes be taken so in deede that the arke made off vvoode is very god For in the wordes off the texte it is expressly signified And euen as that is so is this a sacramentall speache wherby they hauing
shoulde be meÌte Therfore if yow had spared that cauil yow mighte haue bene cleare of two moe errors which yow are fallen into by affirminge partly that S. Luke by the worde lifting vp off handes signifieth the whole solemnitie of creatinge ministers which can not be true seinge he expresseth two other parts off yt whiche are praier and fastinge partly in affirminge that he dothe in the wordes off laying on off handes all waies vnderstande the bare layinge on off handes onely when as in two off those places whiche I haue alledged it maie appeare that by those wordes is noted not onely the puttinge on off handes but also the praiers whiche were made for the receiuinge off the giftes off the holie goste Which thinge expressed in an other place to haue bene done by Peter and Iohn we must esteme obserued at othertymes Yf I had not browghte the place off the Actes the A. had had nothinge to saie to that I alledged of Saint Lukes borowinge this phrase not off those which came many yeares after but of those which were before But seinge destitute off yowr owne yow are entred vppon my possession againste my will and so also that yow vvill thruste me owte let yt be sufficient that yow haue eased yowr selfe heere a vvhile I saie therfore that this place maketh againste yow in that this vvorde in that place signifieth not a layinge on off handes vppon the heades off the chosen but a chusinge by voices consideringe that wee reade plainly that he chose his Apostels by voice Let vs heare now how it maketh against vs Firste becawse the word is not there taken for liftinge vpp off handes but for appoinctinge and ordeining As who shoulde saie yt is not vsuall vnto the scripture and to all speaches by figure in one parte to note the whole aÌd therfore S. Luke by that one forme off election passed by the céremonie off liftinge vp off handes notethe this election whiche was made by voce off our Sauiour Christe yt maye be also applied vnto other electioÌs wherin by goinge from one syde to another or by writinge his voice in a table the consente off the chuser is vttered So dothe the scripture by bondes and chaine vvhiche are particular kindes off restrainte note all manner off restraincte off libertie althowghe a man haue nether bondes nor chaine 's a bowte him So that that which is so often saide in the gospel simply off our Sauiour Christes chusing his Apostels S. Luke did here in figure not without greate grace vtter Where yow saie that by this means yt signifieth not to ordeine by suffrages in deede in this place yt can not consideringe that our Sauiour Christe was but one But vvhere yow vvoulde conclude therof that Paule and Barnabas by their voices onely chose the ministers and elders Yt is further a sunder then euer yow can sett together heere yow muste be admonished that where the moste off yowr witnesses did forsake yow before yow beheere forsaken off them all For there is neuer a one off the newe vvriters especially named of vs bothe but vppon that place off the Aces hathe in plaine wordes approued the election by the churche Secondly the person off our Sauiour Christe whiche chose with whome none mighte be ioined in commission and the person off the Apostels whiche coulde not be chosen of any but off God did sufficientlie off them selues withowte further addition argue the sole election off our Sauiour Christe But in the 14. Actes seinge nether the Apostels vvhiche did chuse vvere suche as mighte not be accompanied off the churche nor the Mynisters that were chosen off suche degree as mighte not likewise fall into the choise off the churche and consideringe also that all the elections off the ministerie spoken off before in whiche the Apostels had to doo vvere by consente of the churche yt is cleare that if S. Lukes meaninge had beene to tye this election as streighte vnto Pau. and Barn. as the other to our Sau. Christe he woulde haue put in vvordes vvhich mighte as clearly haue declared that meaninge in this as the circuÌstances of the persons doo in the other Thirdly if this worde whiche notethe the choise by voices shoulde be restreined vnto Paule and Barnabas then also the vvorde vvhich declareth that they praied shoulde onelye be restreined vnto them for as that is gyueÌ vnto them so is this Nowe if it be absurde to saie that in those publike praiers Paule and Barnabas onely praied yt is as absurde to saie that they onely chose and the same may be saide off fasting For that which followethe vvith fastinges is all one as if he had saide fasting sauinge onely that S. Luke for elegancy sake and to a voide the multitude of participles comminge so thicke turned the verbe into the nowne so that for so much as Paule and Barnabas did not onely faste but the churche also yt muste followe that they chose not onely but the churche vvith them Therfore as S. Luke in saying that Paule and Barnabas praied and fasted meaneth not that they praied and fasted onely but that they wente before the reste in gouerning those Ecclesiasticall actions euen so in sayinge that they chose by voices he meaneth not that they chose alone withowte the churche but that they guyded and directed the iudgementes off the churche Laste off all seinge that all the twelue to gether woulde not enterprise to doo any thinge off their priuate autoritie vvithowte consente of the churche muche les can yt be thowghte that Paule and Barnab woulde attempt yt Hereto make an end of this dispute I will answer that vvhich is brought off this vvord p. 163. And first I deny that euer I saide that this word by it selfe withowte ioininge any thinge vnto yt signifieth election off many by voices for yt can not signifie any thinge vnles yt be ioyned with somethinge These vvordes off the churches althowghe they declare of vvhome the election vvas made yet they are not added to note the manner of the election as the vvorde Act. 14. but to gyue credite vnto the embassadors vvith the churches vnto vvhich they wente that they mighte safely committe their monie vnto them for the behoufe of the churche off Ierusalem Therfore it is nothinge yow alledge that this addicioÌ off the churches had bene needles if the word liftinge vp off handes had signified off it selffe an election by voices For Sainte Paule shoulde not haue to the full aduanced their credite vvith the churches if he had giuen onely to vnderstande that they were chosen by voices of many considering that they were chosen not only by the voices of many men but by the voices off many churches Wheruppon I conclude that S. Luke Act. 14. vsed that word as the Grecians before him for electioÌ by suffrages and withal put him in minde that his certein and manifest thinges haue neither grownd to stand on nor light to shew them by
for the Apostelship And if no election of the church can be saide to haue beene in the fyrste off the Actes because an Apostell can not be chosen off any but off God alone then can not the Apostels which the D. affirmeth be saide to haue chosen Matthias and Barnabas owte of the reste off the churche In the 1. 2. 3. sections off this diuision he hathe filled vp allmost a whole side wherin ther is nothinge at all which either is not gone before or commeth not after and so grosly repeted withowte ether newe coate or newe colour that I meruaile he is not ashamed For the places Act. 1. 6. 14. for that also Cor. 8. 2. I haue replied before to the other answere shall be made in their places Now then to beginÌe with the falsifyinge yow charge me with I saie that althowghe I haue not gyuen yow the same wordes yet I haue gyueÌ yow the same weighte and I acknowledge yow for no M. of the tonge by whose autoritie I shoulde be bound to the same wordes which yow vse I haue not taken yow as yow doo me at the worste but I haue gyuen yowr wordes a fauorabler meaninge then they deserue bycause I perceiued that yow mente to comprehende Cyprians tymes althowgh yowr wordes euen to Cyprians time woulde not so well beare it yt is disputed whether this worde vntyll or vnto dothe shutte owte or shut in the tyme wheroff it is spoken but there was neuer I think anie that dowbted vvhether that sayinge in coÌmon speach mighte be stretched owte beyonde that time wherunto it is particularly applied Notwithstanding yowr wordes are yet more restreintiue For yt restreineth more to saie euen to suche a time then to saie simplie vntill suche a time for that encrease off the worde euen makethe the wall off separation higher But nowe he seethe the vntrwthe off this sayinge he castethe yt vppon Maister Musc and he must beare the weighte off yt But suche moste grosse ignorance off the estate off the primitiue churche was farre from him And Maister Musc cleareth him selfe off it well For when he saieth that the election of the minister by the voices off the churche endured vnto Cyprians tyme he meaneth not as the D. to put difference betwene the elections made by the people and the bishopp but shewethe onely a difference betwene elections made by consente off the people withowte the magistrate and betwene the elections made by the consente of the people withe the confirmation off the Magistrate And that this is his meaninge yt maie easely appeare For pursuinge the profe of that election by the churche without the magistrate alledging certein CanoÌs thus he coÌcludeth After this sorte therfore vvere the Elders bishops and deacons in times paste chosen vvhiche fashion they still reteined vntill the tyme off Christian magistrates vvhose consente vnto the election off the bishops vvas required Therfore this absurditie beinge the Ans owne he muste be contente to beare yt Yt makethe no matter that this forme of election was not in some fewe churches off the worlde in Cyprians time nether is it meruaile althowghe in some places at that time they had departed from the institution of the Apostolicall churche If it be proued that Cyprian teachethe that it owghte to be so and that it is Gods ordinance if all the churches had declined from yt as there were verie fewe Cyprian muste needes by that sentence disalowe them Althowghe I muste also admonishe yow that if those fewe examples in Cyprians tyme coulde preiudice the trwthe yet yowr bishops election is not confirmed therby for it mighte be doone by the eldershipe of the churche by assemblie off manie bishops moste vnlikeste is yt off all other that it vvas doone at the pleasure off one bishope Let vs therfore come to examine Cyprians iudgemente and see vvhether I haue reported trwly of him Firste as a trewante lothe to goe to scoole seeketh the furthest vvaie so the A. afraide off the lighte off Ciprians vvordes makethe entrance into this sentence by halfe a score lines vvhich mighte haue bene in one Heere good reader as the A callethe for thy diligence so if thowe gyue a litle heede thow shalte see suche open and violente peruertinge as coulde not be doone withowte cracke off conscience Firste therfore let vs holde that vvhich I thincke is accorded off both partes that Cyprians purpose is to withdrawe the people from communicatinge with the ministrie off those which had fallen from the gospell vnto Idolatrie To the confirmation vvheroff vvhen he had alleadged the greuousnes off that crime he addethe especially seinge the people haue povvre to chuse vvorthie and to refuse vnvvorthie ministers As if he shoulde saie if it vvere not in yowr powre to refuse those vnworthie ministers yow mighte haue some excuse or if beinge in yowr powre to refuse the vnworthie yow had not also powre to chuse another worthy yow mighte haue likwise somewhat for excuse For yow mighte alledge peraduenture that it vvere better to kepe him stil then to be vvith owte altogether or to haue a nother as euill or worse then he but seinge yow haue bothe power to refuse the vnworthly and to a chuse a nother there muste needes befaulte That this is the meaninge off Cyprian and his argumente wherwith he calleth them backe from communicatinge vvith the ministrie off those vvhich had fallen all vvhich can set the nominatiue case and verbe together muste needes vnderstande Nowe let vs see vvhether the exposition off the Ans vvill mainteine this sayinge To accorde him and Cyprian vve muste firste expounde thes vvordes to haue povvre to chuse and to haue povvre to refuse to be to stande by while they be chosen or refused Whiche maister D. gatherethe belike becawse Cyprian saithe the election muste be had the people beinge presente In deede it appearethe the maner was then that he that was to be chosen was before them but is it a good reason that Cyprian woulde haue the people presente at the election therfore he vvoulde not haue them to chuse seinge he had sayde imÌediatly before that they had powre to chuse Yt is well therfore that he added that yt owghte to be doone by their iudgemente so that if the churche iudged him not meet he owghte not to be minister And further addeth vvhich the D. is afraid of and whiche he shamfully deniethe in state wordes by their voices The examples out off the Actes wherwith he bringethe lighte vnto that vvhich he thawghte are touched before and amongest others by the electioÌ off the DeacoÌs whiche becawse the D. can not denie but it was by the churche he hathe lefte yt clean forthe and yet most plainly he sheweth this by exaÌple of an electioÌ which was lately made in the churche wherunto he vvritethe sayinge vvhiche vvee see to haue bene doone vvithe yovv in the ordeininge off our fellovve in office Sabinus thar the bishopricke shoulde be gyuen him by the
gyuen vnto the people againste their vvill nether by oppression of mighty men vvhiche is detestable let the cytisens or clergie be dravven to gyue their consente And thus muche for answer to yowr Councels To fetche a commaundemente out off the booke off numbers is to fetche yt out off the higheste courte off heauen And I was not constreined vnto it for off more then halfe a score reasons brewghte whether one off them be once moued by yow I leaue it to be iudged This commaundement pinched yow so that albeit yow pretende lawghter yet I dowbte not but yt is Sardons lawghter that is to saie from the teethe owtwarde where yow saie there is no worde which signifieth an election yt is yowr olde boldnes off denying that which is as cleare as the none daies Where also yow saie that it speakinge off layinge on off handes can make nothinge for the election off the church I beseche yow syr how doo yow proue that Timothe hathe the choise of ministers ys it not by thes wordes that he is bidden not to laie on his handes and haue yow not saide that by the layinge on off handes the whole solemnitie off creatinge ministers is vnderstanded this is faste and lose and not onely as Teconius said that that vvee vvill is holie but when wee vvill and as longe as vvee vvill Belike the laying on off handes signifieth nothinge or if it doo and not the consente off the people Why doothe not the Answ tell vs what And where he goeth abowte to finde some differeÌce in this and that vvhich I saie off the layinge on of handes by the Eldershippe and heroff besides the peintinge off his mergente speaketh ones twise and the thirde tyme accordinge to his olde manner of repeticioÌs He purposely as seemeth passeth by my answer to that obiection that not the people but certeine that is to saie the elders in the name off the people did laie on their handes as it is to bee seene in other places vvhere the gouernours in the name off all the people laie on their handes vpon the sacrifice for synne Where yow will mee to speake in good earneste If I had onely to doo vvith such a trifler I woulde either answer nothinge or els as such a one is worthie but because I haue to doo with the church off God for iudgement off the iudiciall and Ceremoniall law and for proofe off yowr vntrew dealing I refer my selffe to that I haue saide before Yff this I haue alledged off layinge on off handes vpon the ordeined bee a Ceremoniall lawe which tooke ende by the comming off our Sauiour Christe then the Apostels vvere iniurious vnto his deathe that translated that Ceremonie from the Iewes vnder the lawe into the churche vnder the Gospell Therfore in this poincte yow haue to doo with the Apostles and not with me For as vnder the lawe the gouernoures and the people consentinge into one action testified the same by layinge on off handes off the gouernours onely so vnder the Gospell the elders and people consentinge in the election off one doo testifie it by layinge on off handes off the Elders onely Where yow vvoulde proue yt abrogated because yt yt is ioined with other thinges which are abrogated I haue shewed howe that is an engyne to wreste owte off the handes off the church all the morall lawes that euer vvere vvritten Where yow saie there coulde be no election off the people in the leuytes for that God had chosen them Yow mighte haue vnderstanded that althowghe the tribe of Leuy onely were vsed to the ministerie yet all that tribe was not applied that vvaies but as many as vvere thowghte enoughe to supplie that office and those also not at all aduenture but by choise accordinge to their habilitie I feare not Maister W. the iudgemente off the greateste enemies I haue and frendes yow haue in this cause but that their owne consciences shall vvitnes vvithe mee off my faithfull alledginge off the scriptures and off yowr either notable ignorance or very euill conscience And in thes iestes off yowres and accusations off my byndinge men vnto the Ceremoniall lawe and bringinge them to Iudaisme and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall lawe Were yow not a fraide by my sides to thruste thorowghe Cyprian Who fetcheth his profe for the election off the ministerie by the voice off the people owte off the booke off nombers vvhere mention is made also off the preistes garmentes vvhich vvas ceremoniall Or vvere yow not afraide thus to handle Maister Caluin His profe is fetched owt off Leuiticus vvhose speciall argumente is to handell ceremonies and mighte not I fetche a commaundement out off nombers which hath an other scope He onely vppoÌ that it vvas coÌmaunded that Moses shoulde bringe the Leuites before the congregation concluded that the peoples consente ovvghte to be had in the ministers choyse and was yt not lawfull for me hauinge the same grounde and further also the comaundement that the people shoulde laie on their handes to conclude as muche He toke his place from thence where nether in the chapiters before nor in that owte of the vvhich he fetcheth this there is any thinge but ceremonial And was it not lawful for me to take this sentence becawse other thinges in this chap. vvere ceremoniall but that I muste needes be thus iested on and my discretion so greatly required in handlinge the scripture Therfore I saie that I citing this place am no more Iewish then the Apostels then Cyprian then Caluin Where I alledged for the establishing off that vvhich he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremoniall law that the grovvnd of childrens baptisme standeth vpon the ceremony off Circumcision He answering that circumcision was a figure off baptisme but that the Leuiticall priesthood was no figure off the Ministery off the Gospell is deceiued For certein thinges in the Ministrie off the lawe were figures off thinges in the Ministrie off the Gospell as their anointinge signified that none maie bee admitted vnto the ministerie off the Gospell but those which haue giftes meete for that purpose as our Sauiour Christe him selffe owte off Esai expoundeth yt Euen their sacrifices vvhich off all other thinges are furthest from the ministrie of the gospell shadowed out the mortyfyinge off synne by the sworde off the worde off God that the mynisters mighte offer the people vnto God an acceptable sacrifice throwgh Iesus Christe as appeareth by Saincte Paule And the lawes off the leuiticall priesthoode are not onely figures off our ministerie but often times also rules to directe yt by therfore as off that Aaron toke not vppon hym the preisthood before he vvas called off God the vvriter vnto the Hebrewes concluded the callinge off our Sauiour Christe to his preisthood so farre different from the preisthood off Aaron so wee conclude that no man maie put his foote into the ministrie oneles he bee called Thes argumentes
booke he affirmethe precisely that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that vvhich the Anabaptist helde that there was no churche where there was no excommunication Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions doo not belonge vnto publicke offences but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated if they reste not in the churches Iudgement and consequently first complainned of to the churche Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures mentioned in that place off S. Mathew he dothe more then once or twise affirme Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne if al were trwe yow alledge here as they are very vntrwe yet they helpe not For yow vvill not denie but dronkardes vvhoremongers papistes c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance or owte off the churche which whether soeuer come to passe taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge againste the election off the church So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche as bandogges to kepe owte this election this barre againste it is easely remoued It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably one with another but also and that especially to see that they hauing the trwe knowledge of God maie serue him as he hathe prescribed This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case if yow can shewe better mine shall giue place Onely therfore I made mention of it to shewe that the impossibilitie vvhich yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion can haue no place if they continewe vncorrigible I haue before shewed that yt is the coÌmaundemeÌt of God vnto the magistrate to vse cutting and burning and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them nor the reste off his subiectes infected If they can be discerned for dogges or swine vvhich are not onely filthie in vvhich regarde I called dronkardes c. Swine but also treade the worde vnder their feete then I graunte he vvhich hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God owghte not to teache them But this coÌmeth owte of time For I made no mention off dogges and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes but to filthie liuers and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose for if they maie not heare the worde muche lesse can they be off the church The preuenting off an obiection is no digression vvhether yt bee friuolous the iudgement shall bee with the reader I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established which is surely grounded withowte remoue and which hathe all the partes off a church nowe I see that by established yow meane allowed by the magistrate Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie that there were churches then which had maintenance of the magistrate yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me not helpeth yow I wil not striue speake of the church visible standing off good and euill of the owtwarde gouernment of the church vvhich standeth in administring off the word and Sacramentes and exercise of all partes off church discipline and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes althowghe not all her ornamentes Which I did not withowt reason annexed againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion and a charge off ignorance off that distinction which I my selfe did first propounde towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche yt falleth into the questioÌ of the Archbishop where it shall be god willing handled That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular by his owne iudgement which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment of that parte which moste rulethe is vntrwe for the State off the beste did beare the greateste rule considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp wherat the people were not nor coulde not by any conuenience be present yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present and president And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times had to doo almoste in euery thinge is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed For to the Admo and me opposing the places off the Actes where thinges were doone ether by voice or consent off the church his answer hath bene that the churche had nothing to doo there but onely in the election off the Deacons and that popularitie he affirmeth to haue bene not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution as here in this place but for a speciall cause off contention then in the church Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment were doone by consent off the people if those places wee hauÌe alledged doo not proue yt That which yow ad off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church withowte the consent and knowledge of the magistrate yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche For the magistrates consente and the churches are not at warre but one may hathe and dothe stande well vvith the other Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable I leaue yt in the readers iudgement howe trwly and withowte bragge or figure I haue spoken But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better onles yow can shewe that those differences pull with them a necessitie off change off the forme off election vvhich yow nether doo nor can That one churche shoulde admonishe another and that there are many Hypocrites vnder persequution is before shewed Off wicked ministers which had their followers and louers in the churches of God vvhich notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians partly Nestorians and especially of the Nouatians were persequuted and banished of heathen Emperours together vvith the catholike church of Christe And it appeareth plainly by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him did chuse vnmeet ministers Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe when he saithe that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell doo yt allwaies off conscience or off good conscience wheroff the question is And if he vvill admitte none off thes proses yet if he stand vnto his exposition off
diocese will not holde owt the whether For although it might be therby gathered that there vvere seuerall Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceses yet it is plaine by his wordes that the elections vvere throvvgh ovvt made by the church vvhich is that vve desire Because yow busie yowr selfe so much to proue that this was not decreed by autoritie of the vvord of God althowgh yt be not that vvhich I tooke in hand to proue yet the wordes off that decree proue yt fully And albeyt he saied not according to the rules of the Apostles yet he saith that in effect For in saing that the church should vse that election in the name and authoritie off god what is yt els but that god hath so ordeined And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church which he giueth not him selfe but assenteth vnto he declareth yt incident to the church And what a reason is this TheÌperour for bad that any man shoulde spoile the churches of their elections therfore it was in the Emperours powre to take awaie the election from the churches Which is in this diuision for feare of forgetting fowre times repeted aÌd vnworthy once to be coÌfuted as I haue before declared And as that which the A. alledgeth off the rest of the decree maketh nothing to proue that the electioÌ off the church is in the Emperours powre so that which imÌediatly foloweth vvhich he hydeth in c. doth manifestly proue that he helde yt for grounded of the vvord off God that the churches should haue the election off their mynisters For he addeth Because vve haue bene tavvght by the holie fathers that this thing that is to saie the taking awaie off the election from the church as the D. himselfe expoundeth yt is most greuous synne If therfore it be greuous synne to spoile the church of this honor and synne is defined the breach of the law off god yt followeth that the Emperour toke yt for a lawe of God that the church should chuse her minister And if I had bene bente vppon that poincte I could haue cited diuers testimonies which Illyricus vseth wherby this off the vnchangeable necessitie off the election by the church is confirmed As that Leo the firste affirmeth that no reason suffereth that he should be bishop vvhich is not chosen by the people alledged and pressed against the Papistes off Maister Caluin to the same pourpose Which place how violently and vnfaithfully yt is wrested off the D. in the end of this treatise shall be considered Also that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth and Celestine which confirmed the same ordinance vvith this testimonie it is not conuenient and yt is againste reason yt should be othervvise Likewise owt off the epistles off the Archbishop off Reines in Fraunce vvho diuers times vseth this saying he ovvght to be chosen of all vvhom all must gyue obedience vnto Last off all a whole treatise owt of the second booke of Cusanus vvhich proueth of diuers places out off the scripture Cyprian and canon Lawe that yt is no constitution off men but the lawe off God that the minister should be chosen off the church and that vvhosoeuer doth not enter into the church by that means entreth not in by the doore but is a these and a murtherer Thes I would haue browght at large if I had not contented my selfe with proofes owt of the scripture for the necessitie off yt which I here haue shortly set downe because I see the D. more afraied off the iudgemeÌt off the auncient church then of the scripture so that althowgh yt be a slender buckler to shild him selfe that the constitutions in that behalfe make no mention off any grownd owt off the word of god wheras he should rather haue shewed that they protested in their lawes off the indifferencie againste the necessitie off it yet euen that buckler also is by diuers Testymonies taken from him Yt is a poore falsifying off Platina vvhich is nothing but change of one worde for another without any gaine at al. For the Emperours coÌmendacion serueth me as well to proue that the election of the church was alowed of and confirmed of the ciuill magistrate as if he had commaunded yt The second place off Platina proueth nothing les then that it was in the Emperours powre to change the election seinge that he nether made nor altered any forme off Election but onely off two Elections by the people mainteined that vvhich vvas lawfull Seinge also Platina supposeth no right off makinge the election in the Emperour but by the resignation off the Bishopp if that place proue any thing or thother after alledged owte off Bale and Barnes they proue that yt was in the Bishoppes hande to order yt at his pleasure Which howe vntrwe yt ys maie be considered off that vvhich hath bene before spoken againste the sole election off the Bishopp and off that vvhich is here confessed that the Bishopp of Rome began to vsurpe that which belonged not vnto hym For iff he encroched vppon the Emperours right no meruaile althowgh he brake in vppon the possession off the church Where he saith yt is to be noted that the libertie for the people to chuse was graunted by Charles the greate note also thaâ that note is worth nothing For where he would haue yt seeme that he was the firste that gaue that libertie he is confuted manifestly by the wordes off Charles a litle before alledged vvho speaketh of that election as of a thing accustomed of ould and doth not make any newe lawe therof but gyueth his assent vnto those which vvere made The vvordes yow ascribe to me that the electioÌ perteineth not to the Emperour I haue not I kepte the very wordes of Platina and nether added nor tooke awaie from them Where yow vvould seme to confirme owt of Platina in the life of Iohn the 13. by the worde creating that the Emperour chose Leo yt is but an abusing of the reader For Platina in the next chapter sauing one vvhere he speaketh of Leos election declareth that that creation vvas nothing els but a confirmacion of the election made by the people and clergie Therfore I saide the Emperours permitted the elections vnto the churches because by powre and violence they might haue taken them from them vvherfore yt followethe not that he mighte withowt breache off Gods lawe take them from the churche When yt is saide in the stories that the Emperous permitted vnto the churches the exercise off their religion maie yt therby be concluded that it was at their pleasure to haue without offence of God restrained them of that libertie verely I am ashamed to confute vvhich the D. is not ashamed to obiecte Yet the testimonies alledged make no mention of this word permission wherby this aduantage yf yt vvere anie should betaken Yow might easelie haue forgiuen me this fault where the iniurie which I doo is a gainst my selfe For where I might
is a popishe shifte as I haue shewed sufficiently before confuted yt hath no grounde in the vvorde testimony wherout he woulde pull yt For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice because by giuinge it they gaue also testimony what they the wght off him Where it is to be noted that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God then S. Paul giueth to straungers froÌ yt of whom he willeth that the bishop shall haue a good report There followeth the open violence doone vnto August wordes Where first let the reader obserue againe that this wresting of the example of Eradius against the election of the church was taken from Pighius as appeareth manifestly But for answer vnto Pigbius and the D. it muste be vnderstanded how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August decease there were assembled two bishopes besides August 6. Elders beside Eradius with the reste of the clergie and people For what purpose all thes if it were in Augustines powre to choose onelie After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to haue there consente because he had experience off trouble and discontentement of the people off Millen for that Seuerus the bishop there did appoincte his successor before his death withowte speakinge any thinge theroff vnto them vvhich could not be auoided off Augustine if he mente to chuse any againste the will off the people For yt had bene better for him to haue appoincted one as Seuer us did vvithowte communicatinge the matter vnto them then in communicatinge yt to take one againste their willes Againe where the D. vppon those wordes I vvill haue Eradius my successor woulde haue that Augustine onely had the election off him he is coÌfuted by and by after with his owne wordes I saie that I vvill haue him because I knovve that yovv vvill haue him And after he vvilleth that the publike notories shoulde as vvell note their voices as his vvill in this matter that saith he your consentes fall not to the grounde or become voide Wherunto also pertaine the subscriptions of them which folowed Which althowgh the D. saith are referred onely vnto the peticion off Augustine to be discharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters yet the wordes sounde otherwise For when he required their subscription to those Actes yt is cleare that he muste be vnderstanded to haue spoken off both those matters otherwise he woulde haue required subscription to that Acte and not vnto the Actes And where in the ende for an other reason he addeth Augustine was appointed bishope when Valerius bishope off Hippo was a liue I see not howe it maketh for him one word For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it he is vtterly deceiued seing Possidonius writeth that Valerius spake vnto the people to prouide and to ordeine an elder off the cytie and sheweth how he was ordeined by the consente off all the people Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies off this Epistle off August yet yt mighte appeare by other as where he declareth that Pinianns was ordeined off the people elder off the church againste his will. moe might be alleadged but thes shall suffyse Sauinge that I muste put Maister D. in remembrance howe he merueilously forgetteth him selfe For grauntinge me before that the councell off Carthage wherat Augustine was presente decreed that the election shoulde be made by the commen consente off the people clerkes and bishopes in the same prouince he must heere needes confesse that ether Augustine did there ioine together in election with the church and the clergie as they terme them or that he brake the order off the Councell which could not be vvithowt his fault although the election off the church had bene as the D. esteemeth yt but a thing indifferent And the truth is yt appeareth that August had in that election an expresse regard vnto the decree off the councell which caused him beside the eldership off the church and people to send for two other bishops to be assistants Wherupon the reader may see how there is no light off wordes so cleare which Phighius and the Ans misled will not giue thânser to darcken Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church which he could not onles yt were by the institution off God the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth that the election off the people is there accounted off as necessary For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chusing a bishop vvhen it vvas also infected vvith Heretickes vvhy did not Amb. at least by vvay off Lapse take the election vnto him self but vvriteth vnto them reprehending them that they did not aske for a bishop as other churches were vvont to doo Gregor Nazienz speaking there off diuers elections vvherin still the people bore one part and that withowt controlement speaketh more for that election in that one place then the D. hath hitherto or in the residue of his treatise is able to shew And where he might seeme to haue somewhat nipped at it in shewing how at certeine elections some off the people were contentious he healeth that euen in the next sentence to this saying that at that time it was to be feared lest he ovvght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered then their ovvne and after maketh mention off the corruption off those which were fellow elders vvith his father but obserue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes which expouÌdeth the worde churches the clergy Where learned he thus to expound Let it be that as in the scripture sometime so in the auncient fathers the eldership off a church is called by the name off church where can he euer shew that the eldership or as he termeth it the clergy of one onely church vvherof Greg. speaketh is called by the name off churches In steed therfore that he should haue translated both the richer and they off great authority in the church vvere cleane from that euill he hath translated the churches that is to say the clergy c taking the nominatiue plurall for the genitiue syngular Which although in the latin toung if one take not heed vnto the sense may deceiue yet vvhen the D. had the Greeke which hath off the church before him as it seemeth by cyting the greeke in the same place by and by after ether he vnderstood it not or willingly peruerted the meaning So I leaue to the reader whether I haue reasoned to the pourpose or no and whether yow besides wordes haue any thing at all As in certeine other places so in this in steed off that I should haue taken the quotacion which came after I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before was deceiued and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates set downe the 6. and 7. of Eusebius This verely is the error which the D. maketh so
much more owghte the bishops election which hath so manie bankes both off ignorance and euill conscience to put him from the waie of a good election be susteined by the iudgement off others And yt ys vntrwe that it is plaine that the church was heere shut forth For althowgh yt was nether in the ministers powre nor the peoples to chaunge this election yet the faste there mentioned beinge generall and the accoumpte off their embassage and successe therof beinge afterwarde made vnto the churche yt is not vnlike but in the approbation which that election coulde admit the church also had her parte That which is heere added owte off Beza vvhich the D. woulde haue so diligently noted is but to vvaste paper For vvee holde that it is moste conueniente the people shoulde haue the ministers and elders goe before and directe them in their elections But yt is moste directly againste the D. For therby appeareth that Beza is off that minde that althowgh the people be ignorant and vntractable yet they owght not to be cut of from ecclesiasticall electioÌs but directed and called to some moderation Off that which remaineth in this diuision the canons called the Apostels that off Antioche Eusebius and others which speake off ordeining make nothing to this question which is off election consideringe that yt hath bene shewed not onely that ordinacion differeth from election but also that the councells from time to time haue confirmed the election by the churches So that iff there haue bene any elections made by the Bishopes alone they haue bene directly contrary to the tenure of the councelles In the councell off Nice althowgh his boldnes be greater then in the other canons hauing chaunged the wordes off the councell and in steede off ordinacion put election yet hath he no more warrant off the wordes off that canon then off the others And albeit the generall answer is more then sufficient to resiste suche naked assertions yet euen in this councell it is manifestly to beshewed that that canoÌ is to be vnderstaÌded of ordinacion as it is distinguished from election For in the letters which the Synode off Constantinople wrote vnto the councell holden at Rome yt is thus written Touching the care off the gouernement off euery church yovv knovv that the oulde decree and appointement of the fathers off the Nicene councell hath preuailed from time to time that the inhabitants in euery prouince taking to them if they vvill and if yt be profitable those vvhich are next adioining should make the elections According to the tenure vvherof vnderstand yovv that the residue of the churches vvith vs are gouerned VVherupon vve haue in our generall councell set our bishopp off Constantinople Nectarius in the sight off the Emperour Theodosius and clergy off that citie the vvhole citie giuing theyr voices therunto And so goeth forward with the election off the bishop off Antioche and confirmacion off the bishop off Ierusalem Where yt appeareth manifestly not onely that the ordinacion gyuen by that canon to the bishop did not shut owt the election off the people but that yt implied necessarily an election by the people and clergy ioined with yt For the Synode saith that those elections vvhich vvere made by consent of the church vvere made according to the decree off the Nicene councell And if it should be as the D. pretendeth that the councell off Nice ment to gyue the whole interest off election vnto the bishops and to take yt from the church then coulde not that councell haue saied that they made the Nicene councell the squire off their elections when they admitted the suffrages off the people And that there be no doubt heroff I will set downe the wordes off the councell off Nice which are these Let the people chuse and the bishop approue and seale vp the election vvith them For Gratians distincions vvith his glosse first them selues gyue me defense enough against all the force wherwith they assaile this cause as when he saith that the other priestes vnder degree off a bishop may be ordeined off their ovvne bishop so that both the citisens and the rest off the priestes gyue their assent And the glosse vpon the second canon off that distinction saying the Bishop alone may gyue the degree vnto priestes addeth alone that is to say vvithovvt other bishopps Then I coulde oppose the authoritie off Illyricus which sheweth plainly that the wordes cited owt off the 63. distinction by the D. be a mere lie off Gratian. Howbeit I will not gyue ether Gratian or his glosse that honour as once to vouchesafe hym off any answer in the church of god And that thow maiest know good reader what maner of man he was of vvhom the D. plunged seeketh helpe vvith commendation also of his interpretation euen where it is condemned off protestantes writers off our time as heere thow seest and further shall appeare I will in a word aduertise the. That whether he vvere the brother off Lombard tharchepiller of Antichristes seat borne with a third brother of a strompet as they write vvhich couer the shame of his birth or Lombardes bastard conceined by a Nun which by reuelation accompanied her selfe vvith Lombard vvhether so euer I saie he vvere off thes this is certeine that in gatheringe the canons off the councelles he endeuored by mighte and maine to make them agree vvith the Patrone off the adulterous church off Rome Therfore in goynge aboute to reconcile thee gouernemente off the elder churches off Christe vvith that vpstarte Synagogue off Antechriste as yt vvere to make accorde between the owle and the rauen there is no kinde of false dealinge nether in addinge changinge dimynishinge false interpretinge nor other corruptions and that contrarie to the cleare lighte off wordes controrolmente off recordes extante to confute him wherin he hath not caried awaie the bel of vnshamfastnes from all that euer wrote before him or in his time Off thes corruptions there are almoste as many both vvitnesses and gath erers off our owne cotrey men and of others as haue at any time bene exercised in this fielde off confutation off the popishe religion As for his glossers as the Popes hyred seruantes such as flattered for a cruste off breade sayinge yea to his yea and nay to his nay they shall goe to gether with their maister And let euen this place of the D. befor a sey off the glosses impudencie in expounding Leos wordes For where Leo speakinge of electioÌ setteth forth the intereste of the churches with all thes wordes that the minister ovvghte to be chosen by the consente off the people by the voices off the people by their good vvilles and that none be ordeined vvhich they desyre not vvhich they vvishe not for vvhich they require not all thes wordes this good glosse bringeth me vnto this that the people shoulde onely gyue testimonie off his good behauiour vvhich is before confuted And if he saie here
chusing such a one as was an Arian a runnigate from his former bishoppricke a railer of the Emperour yet he confesseth still that yt belonged vnto them to make a hewe election Fourthly what will he say to that that the people bridled the rage of the scribes and pharises againste the truth and ministers theroff in that they were a fraide off them that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop chosen by the church aÌd placed an Arian Which disorders beinge often coÌmitted by the Bishops maie by the D. rule as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering and confirming as the people in chosing What also that the euill disposition off the people hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours So that people diuers times good when the rulers were naughte hath bene seldome naughte wheÌ their gouernours were good besides all this there are other faultes off Symonie off choise off moste dissolute and most vnlearned ministers wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous and the churches election scarsly to be touched with that many contentions off the people woulde drawe les blould off the churche then the choise onely off one suche blinde and lame minister as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose sende forthe by whole armies Laste all as in other reasons before I haue shewed that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes vseth the very selfe same armour bournished by the names off Zuinglius Caluin Beza c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election wherunto Caluin maketh answer For vnto the Papistes sayinge that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions and tumultes which happened often times he answereth confessing there were such motions and sturres but that the taking awaie off the churches electioÌ was browght in for a remedy against those sturres he affirmeth to be a plaine lie and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders as to punishe them which should moue any tumult And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie from the churche To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste with a sentence off Chrysostome vpon Iohn drawen from Hosius who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche Where both Hosius and the Ans shoulde haue learned to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude and the church off god For I woulde aske off Hosius howe shamles so euer he be whether he dare define the church off God which is the spouse and body off Christe to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte and sturres consistinge ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie that this is the difinition that is to saie the very nature and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church And verely I can not see howe he coulde speake more vilely of the moste disordred rowte off moste godles people then he semeth to doo off that assemblie vvhich beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste he calleth a thing consistinge off folies and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate or at leaste off the wicked vvhich haue as yet no societie with our Sauiour Therfore to conclude seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers hath grounde owt off the worde off God both in commaundement and continuall practise both in the olde Testamente and in the newe consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason the approbacion off all times after the Apostles as longe as ther was any sinceritie in peace and perquution both by councells and Emperours decrees both by godly writers ancient and off our time and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie owte off any auror and if he coulde yet the same is condemned not onely by the worde off god but by continuall good harmonie off councells one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares and forasmuch as the Ans hathe this question of election by the bishope onely commen with the Papistes and hathe had both sworde and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes I conclude that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers and that the sole autoritie off bishops creating ministers is vnlawfull Vnto this question off election and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract of ceremonies in ordeining off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered and the first and third vnworthy of answer there remaineth onely the fowrth Againste that he alledgeth that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper I replied that there was a commaundement for the one and not for the other wherunto he saith that there is no speciall commaundement Which is no answer For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff then the argument standeth That he bringeth off the minister sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie and in recitall off the commaundementes thow shalte haue no other god but me is nothing worthe seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface off God spake thes vvordes Christe tooke bread c. The place of Timothe vvith Maister Caluins expositioÌ is vtterly impertinent For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth or no but vvhether he giueth them by this means of sayinge receiue c. where he saith that the Apostels when they laide on their hands likely vsed thes wordes it is vntrwe considering that Saincte Luke pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed made no mencion off it being in the D. iudgement worthiest off all other to be followed And if they had vsed yt yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles to giue the giftes off the holy goste by layinge on off handes Where he saith that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet and breathing vppon his disciples confirmed his diuinitie I answer that he did the same in commaunding to receiue the holy goste which otherwise he woulde haue praied for as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie Caluin althowgh he vse not the same example yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes receiue the holy goste with those being saide
to Lazarus dead in his graue come forth and to the Palseie man ryse and vvalke And his breathing beinge the Sacrament off those wordes receiue the holy goste they muste off necessitie be referred to the same ende So that if our Sauiour woulde declare his deuinity by one it was his minde to doo the same by the other And if because he instituted a minister by those wordes they are to be vsed then the breathing also must lykwise considering that he vsed that for the confirmacion off the wordes Where he saith they conteine a perpetuall promise off the presence off the spirite with those which Christe shall call euen so doth the commaundinge off the sea c. to be quiet conteine a perpetuall promise that the winde and sea shoulde ryse and fall for the profite off those vvhich be the Lordes But as there is no promise that that shall be in abating their rage so foundainly as our Sauiour Christe did so there is no worde that the Lorde will giue his spirite by pronouncing off this sentence The bishop saithe he hath no meaninge to commaunde Nether had the Papistes but why he shoulde speake one thing and meane another he can shewe no reason therfore our faulte beinge in this poincte the same vvith the Papistes hath the same Censure off writers inueighing againste this vnaduised imitacion That which is saide that if any patron off calling is to be followed our sauiour Christes owghte is a grosse begging of that in controuersie and then apparantly refuted in that our Sauiour Christe gaue newe names in his ordination sente forth two by two commaunded they should cary no weapon c. which can haue no place in our ordinacions Where I alledged that the reason was not one in thes wordes and in the wordes off the supper in that the minister doth not commaund that the bread be the body but saith yt is he answereth nothing Tract 3. and 4. according to the D. That all ordinarie Ministeries are annexed to a certein place THe A. in heaping vp certein differences betwene the office off an Apostle and Pastor answereth nothing to the matter Yff this be true which is set downe that they be like in this that a certein church is to a pastor or a minister vvhich the twelfth place was then amongest the Apostels the reason off the Adm. is mainteined For then as it was not lawfull for them to haue proceeded vnto a newe election if Iudas had not fallen from his ministerie so it is not lawfull to ordeine Pastors so longe as the place is full likewise if the Apostels would not vndertake any election but where they had the light and guide off the worde off God to shewe them the way not onely what manner a one but when he should be chosen muche lesse is it lawefull for the Bishoppes The first off thes being so cleare as the A. durst not plainly denie he doth notwithstanding pushe at priuely saying that Paul and Barnabas were added aboue the nombre off twelue But he should haue knowen that they were added by the Lorde and not by the church where he should haue shewed that the Apostels c. chose the thirtenth Apostle And we denie not but the Lorde may nowe if yt seme good vnto him choose some Minister which hath no certein place That which he obiecteth off Epaphroditus c. to be Apostels suche as we speake off is an absurd begging off that which is in question Where against the second point he saith that there is no suche thing in the Election off the Pastors as that in their election the scripture should be fulfilled c. allthoughe there be not so particular a worde as off chusinge one into Iudas place yet there is a certein rule in obedience whereoff the scripture is daily fulfylled And so falleth also his other exception which supposeth that off one example we make a generall rule Considering that we craue no further helpe off that example then the same was compassed by the worde off god The A. grauntinge the distinction off ordinarie and extraordinarie Ministeries and yet denying that it can be warranted by the scriptures poursueth his former traine off shrincking the scriptures Seinge yt followeth thereuppon that some truthe in Diuinitie cannot be warranted by the worde off god The question moued off the Elders is out off place the answer whereunto shal be differred vnto the proper treatise The absurd speaches which he hath here and in the next Diuision off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes come to be examined in the answer to his third chap. Heere first he trifleth with his reader whilest he supposeth that I ground the function off Elders vpon the 4. off the Ephes and that Iesteme that place a perfect rule of Ecclesiasticall functions when as not onely I haue no syllable sounding that way but haue declared the contrarie in that by a long discourse in the question off the Archebishop I haue shewed that that place is onely of the Ministeries occupied in the worde That which he speaketh heere off ouerseing shepherdes and watchmen belongeth to the 6. Diuision where yt is repeated That off one shepherd hauing many flockes belongeth to the question off hauing many benefices Yt remaineth to mainteine that part off the Diuision which setteth downe the Doctor off the church as a seuerall member from a Pastor Which may appeare by that the Apostle placeth them both to the Romanes and Ephes as diuers beside that the giftes differing whereby those functions are executed and there being apt to teache and therfore meet for the office off a Doctor which haue no grace in exhortacion or mouing the affections off the hearers and therefore not so fit to be Pastors yt must followe that the functions be diuers And where the Ans opposeth vnto vs the iudgement off one or twoo it is easye to shewe not onely moe authorities off priuate men but the vse off the Elder churches euen from the Apostels time Epecially in Alexandria where the distinction off the Bishop and Doctor off the church is so often obserued by the ecclesiasticall story also the coustome continued in cathedrall churches as they are called wherefrom time to time beside the Bishop hathe bene a reader And if thes were not distinguished theÌ must it needes follow which in an other place the A. denieth that there were ordinarily two Bishops in one church considering that beside the Elders and him which they commonly called the bishopp there was also a Doctor Nether ought it to be any hinderance to this distinction that Saint Paul coupleth the Pastor and Doctor together where as he sundred the rest that goe before by this worde Some For the coniunction dothe not couple them in signification but maketh them onely couples off the liberalitie off Christe towardes his church Especially considering that bothe this coniunction And is oftentimes a note to couple seuerall members off one diuision and the Apostel would rather
haue saide or Doctors then and Doctors if he had ment to make them all one But all this had not needed if the Ans woulde haue stoode by his former worde in the writinge intitled The Doctors booke For in sayinge there that the Apostle in the Epistle to the Corint speaketh onely off Apostels Prophetes and Doctors Leauing out Euangelistes and yet Euangelistes and pastors necessarie he dooth manifestly confesse that thes functions differ betwene them selues Nether can he saie that he spake there accordinge to my sense For I had not then ether spoken or written any worde off that matter Thus in that he is called the Doctor off suche a churche in parte is answered the question how yt can be shewed that he is tied to a certeine churche And for further answer when as admitting that there is suche an office he can not denie but the institution off it is amongest other spoken of vnto Titus all those mynisteries being appointed to a certein towne and congregation yt foloweth that that office ys likewise Moreouer considering that exhortation and doctrine be necessary for the interteinement off a churche in the trwe seruice off God in that S. Paul parting thes betwene the Pastor and Doctor and placing the office off the Pastor especially in exhortation ascribeth that off teaching principally to the Doctor yt followeth that the Pastor being tied vnto a place the Doctor muste also wherby is likewise answered his other question how it can be proued that the doctor was gyuen in aide off the pastor for the pastor being by the baÌdes of his vocatioÌ especially tied vnto exhortation a supplie of teaching being nedefull it must be fetched at his handes whose proper profession that is Last off all herby appeareth what an abuse yt is in the vniuersitie that they are created doctors which not onely doo not the office but haue not so muche as a certeine place assigned to teach in which amongest other are the two principall thinges I mislike as vnlawfull Where in the end off his booke he saith that it were cofusion and Barbarisme to take away such degrees he doth shamefull iniury to diuers reformed churches in Sauoy and Swisserland where all kinde of learning and good behauiour florishing those degrees are not But it is to be noted that together with the churches Musculus especially hath his part in this charge off Barbarisme c. The churches not hauing the other degrees in artes which are indifferent gyue no sentence off the Doctorshipp but Musc doth plainly declare his misliking For hauing spoken against the popish Doctors he addeth vvherfore I haue often merueiled vvhat diuers notable ministers off Christ meane that they glory so much off the title off an vniuersitie Doctorship as though any autoritie came to their doctrine therby Where it is knowen that those whom he ment were modest gloriyng no further then that as a meanes to draw more credit to their ministery they receyued it which Muscul to wcheth them for Therfore onles he had bene driuen headlong he would at least haue left his degrees indifferent and not such as withowt which no godly honestie nor ciuilitie can stand In the next diuision his answer is vnsufficient For the reason against reading Ministers is not onely because they are appoincted to no certein place but for that they are vtterly without all ministerie and whether euer they shal be or no yt hangeth ether off their owne or off their patrones pleasure So that if ether he forthincking him selfe like the shop better then the churche or the patrone will kepe the dore shut against suche insufficient men which the bishopp opened so wide or as sometime falleth out they can not agree of their market yt comet to passe that he is made a Minister which ether can not or will not not onely not fulfill but not so much as lay hand off that ministerie whereunto he was appointed Contrary vnto the rule off Saint Paul that leueth not this in choise but commaundeth precisely that if after triall they be found blameles they should exercise their ministerie To proue that there may be a rouing ministerie and some which may haue the walk of a whole prouince here is first alledged that the Apostels visited the places where there were seuerall Pastors Whereunto the answer is that that function off the Apostels was extraordinary as shall appeare and therfore at no hand to be drawne vnto our times Secondly is brought the example of Darius which beside 120. gouernoures set ouer the seuerall prouinces made three other to ouersee theâ Wherunto I answer that the Lord hath in assigning offices off the commen wealth left the libertie vnto men which he hath not doon in offices off the church The reason whereoff is manifest considering that they bothe are off greater sufficiency to ordeine offices for the commodities of this life then for those off the life to come and the errour in appointing of them is not so daungerous Eusebius sheweth howe Constantine inuented newe degrees off honour to pleasure those which were about him This not being forbidden in ciuill gouernemeÌt I thincke the A. dare not say it is lawfull to be doon in the gouernement off the church Hereby also is answered the surmise off kinges which being called sheapherds should by this meanes haue their dominions restreined vnto the gouernement off one cytie For the scripture hauing not determined whether there should be a Prince ouer euery citie as it hath that euery assembly should haue a pastor and the enmities and assaultes against the ciuill estate not being so great and daungerous as against the spirituall yt can by no meanes followe that the tying off the Minister vnto one church should enclose the Princes aucoritie in the circuit off one citie But it is to be obserued that both the D. reasons off the Apostels visiting and of Darius pollicie leade to Rome For yt followeth vppon them that one may haue ouersight of all the Ministers seing that both euery off the Apostels had autoritie to visite any church through the world and euen off those three vvhich were ouer the gouernours off 120. prouinces Daniel was the cheif And albeit we leaue no place ether to those rouing or owtgrowne ministeries yet the sheapherds and watchmeÌ want not therefore their ouerseers considering that the Ecclesiasticall Senate doth not onely watch ouer the body off the church but euery one off them ouer an other and especially ouer the mynister off thes also as euery one in brotherly equalitie ought to admonishe so iontly they haue autoritie not onely to admonishe but by Ecclesiasticall censures to chastise the default off their minister Yf they also faile the Synodail assemblies haue interest as I haue before alledged And if the fault be suche as requireth cyuill punishement the Magistrate is the watchman appointed off God for that pourpose Where he saith that a similitude maketh a matter plaine but proueth not
when I added they were argumentes drawne off the nature off thinges wherunto the Ministers are likened and are for the moste part vsed by the holy gost himselfe I preuented that obiection wherunto the S. saithe nothing But if they proue nothing because they were similitudes then his answers to ouerthrowe them being bare similitudes and in thinges wherein they be compared moste vnlike are insufficient The rest off the second section off this diuision which is almoste a whole syde ys perteining to the question off Residence and off hauing twoo benefices Vnto thes argumentes which I vsed as hovve they should knovv his voice vvhen they can not heare yt acknovvledge him vvhen they can not knovv him follovve him vvhen they can not see him goe before or hovve he should heale their diseases vvhen he can not possibly knovve them he answereth not a worde That S. Paul in commaunding to appoint Elders throwghe euery citye ment euery companie off the faithfull rysing vnto a nombre coÌuenient to meet in one assemblie yt is manifest by the place off Saint Luke where yt is saide that elders were ordeined thorowghout euery congregation Wherunto albeit the Ans could say nothing yet in pressing the word cytie he sheweth his good will. Vnto this yt may be added that the scripture vseth oftentimes for shortnes sake by a cytye to comprehend as well townes and villages as the great cities For where Saint Matthew hath citie or towne S. Luke hath citie onely and in diuerse places off the tenth of Saint Matth. 9 and 10. off Luke the precepts gyuen off the Apostels behauiour in the cities are necessarily vnderstanded off other places Likewise that both M. Beza and Erasmus reformed herein the ould translatour changing his translation off citie by citie as that which attained not fully to the meaninge off the Apostle into a more generall speach off tovvne by tovvne This shall yet better appeare in the 3. cha 8. Tract where it shal be shewed howe the institution off God is that a Bishop shoulde be not off a diocese such as ours or prouince but off a particular church Which treatise I would haue drawne hyther as vnto the proper place but that these places are so intangled with the question off the Dominion off the Bishop that I could not without too great trouble off the reader seuer yt Where he saithe that Saint Paul commaunding to appoint Ministers to certein places did not thereby forbid Titus to make Ministers hauing no certeine place he should vnderstand that S. Paul knewe he had to doo with one which had learned well that lesson off the lawe off God Thovv shalt onely doo that vvhich I coÌmaund the. And it is shamefull iniurie doon to Titus once to thincke that he made kindes off Ministeries whereof he had no commission by the Apostle The rest is nothing but a manifest begging off that which is in question Where I alledged the councell off Calcedon that none shoulde be ordeined losely but vnto some speciall congregation the D. being at a bay and hauing no place to escape commeth vpon me vvith open mouth and will beare the reader in hand that I haue falsified the Councell and why forsooth becawse I haue left out these wordes Or in the place off Martyrs buriall or in monasterie I left them out in deed because we haue no vse off them Howbeit what syllable is there here which helpeth him or in all the canon which he hath set downe That the councell menâ not that a man must off necessity be ordeined to a certein place but that he should haue some stay off liuing is directly contrary to the councells wordes which expresseth the first plainly and off the later speaketh nor a word The reasons vsed haue not so much as any sense and are drawen first from the filthie puddle off Popish diuinity that there be eccesiasticall ministeries withowt cure and places not neding any pastorall charge wheras if those monasteries c. were lawfull assemblies euery ecclesiasticall ministery was as necessary for them as for other Afterward they are drawne from a shameles corruption off the councels wordes by sworne ennemies off all good order in the church which to ouerthrowe a plaine meaning haue interpreted vvithovvt hauing some title withowt hauing some possession or liuing And that I haue set downe the true meaning off this councell may easely appeare by an other which forbad this wandring from citie to citie For Theodoret reprehending Eusebius bishop off Nicomedia for leauing his owne church to be bishop in an other alledgeth a canon wherby yt was ordeined that none ether bishop or elder should goe froÌ citie to citie Wherby appeareth they had all certein places Yea the D. Denis shall giue testymony vnto vs in this behalf whose wordes be vve haue appoincted to euery elder his proper parish and church yeard and ordeine that euery one kepe his ovvne right so that none enter into the boundes off an other parish but euery one conteÌt him self vvith his ovven and so gouerne the church coÌmitted vnto him that he may giue account c. But that this shameful facing off the D. may be manifest I will set downe Caluins iudgement off this canon wherby shall better appeare who hath vsed most faith herein he or I. Speaking against the Popish making off ministers he saith But it vvas ordeined in the councell off Calcedon that there should be no absolute ordeining off ministers that is to say onles there vvere a place assigned vvhere the ordeined might exercise his charge Here is the same sense and exposition off the councell which I haue followed as full in euery point now let vs heare owt off what schoole the D. exposition commeth He addeth a litle after But our Romish maisters vvhich thincke nothing to be cared for but the belly fyrst interprete a title a sufficient reuenue vvherby he may be able to liue vvhether left off his freindes or by some benefice Therfore ordeining a priest or Deacon if he able to liue they giue him the degree not regarding vvhere he should exercise his ministery But vvho vvill euer admit that the litle vvhich the councell requireth is a yerely reuenue to mainteine himselfe vvith And after shewing other fraudes wherby they haue deluded other councells which coÌfirmed this he addeth is yt not alvvaies absurd to ordein an elder to vvhom there is no place appointed wherby appeareth not onely Calu. iudgement off this question but how impudent a corruption off the councell he estemeth this which the D. so greatly alloweth The councell off Vrbane owght to make the D. blush and the corruptions which he to so small pourpose chargeth his booke with cause it to speake so lowde that the very deafe eares owght to heare For this diuinity off the later popery which he mainteineth being condemned off the former hath therby a brand of corruptioÌ wherby it may be knowen Consydering that popery geue still from euill to
worse and that it was not able to put this order off the church to flight vntill yt approching vnto her full age had gotten greater strenght off wickednes What Ierome hath of this matter I haue shewed In the next Diuision beside this question whether yt be conuenient for a minister to take wages which can liue off his owne which I will not enter into there is nothing but bare repetition and open petition of that in controuersie The next chap. of Ceremonies in ordeining is answered before That functions off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are not ordinarie Chap 3. pag 229. TO th end it may be better vnderstanded that the D. hath here in maintenance of his Anabaptisticall dreame so confusedly turned vppon heapes I will first mainteine the argumentes which I haue set downe after answer vnto his reasons taken out of the scripture thirdly shewe howe impudently he hath abused the autoritie both of elder and later writers to couer this phrenesie Which shal be doon so much the shorter as he is vnworthye any answer at all First to nip at the distinction off ordinary and extraordinary functions receiued off all which haue but a sparkle off iudgemente he saith that the gift off foretelling thinges to come was for the tyme wherin yt was ordinary Which beside that yt is senseles yt being ordinary in this part which is doon by a setled order and rule appointed off God vnto his church yt ys also from the pourpose consideringe that the question is not off an ordinary function in the beginning off the Gospell but off the gospell symply which reacheth to the whole estate off the church vnder the Gospell Therfore forasmuch as he can not deny but such Prophetes if any were should nowe be extraordinary the distinction standeth After to that I set downe off the vvord Apostel extended in the proper signification to all Ministers that are sent which the knowledge of the Greek word might haue led him to he opposeth Caluin which saith in the proper signification it onely comprehendeth the nombre off 12. Wherin he declareth himselfe but a trifler For onles he be at defiance vvith his grammer he shal be constreined will he nill be to confesse it to be true which I haue set downe That which Maister Caluin saith is not contrary considering that vvhere I spake off the generall vse off the worde he spake of the vse off it in the newe Testament where it is most vsually taken in that sense As for that he saith it is the proper signification he meaneth not the naturall as I ment and expressed but the particular in which sense proper is also taken which appeareth in that he calleth the other generall Where I assigned a proper note off an Apostell to be called immediatly off God he setteth him selfe to confute it when a litle before he had statly confessed that yt is a thing proper vnto the Apostels to be called off God immediatly His first exception is of Matthias which he saith was not so chosen which is vtterly vntrue where he saith also that I confesse the same that is an open vntruth For I shewed that the election out off those two was permitted vnto lot that thereby the Lord might from heauen declare whom he would haue to be an Apostell So that the church chose no Apostle but onely chose twoo off the which one was taken by the Lord to be an Apostle His other exception is off Barnabas which being an Apostle as he saith appeareth by the 11. off the Actes not to haue bene called immediatly where there is not a word which confirmeth that and therfore he durst not note the place whereoff he gathered yt Where he saith it can not be proued by the scripture that he was so called he beggeth the thing in controuersie not able to answer the reasons alledged For where he saith that S. Paul doth not say that he sawe Christ to proue that he was an Apostel but to proue that he was not inferiour to other Apostels he is manifestly confuted both by the wordes going before and folowing after For hauing propounded this for his question am I not an Apostell aÌd not as he saith am I inferior to any Apostel he addeth for a reasoÌ haue I not seen Christe And in the next wordes that followe yf I be not an Apostell vnto others yet I am to yovv he declareth that the estate off the question is there whether he were an Apostel or no. To that I alledged off the protestantes prouing that the Pope can not be Peters successour because there is no succession into the office off an Apostell he aswereth not To that I alledged off Epaphroditus called an Apostel not in respect of the ministrie of the vvord but as sent vvith relief vnto Saint Paul he patcheth out an answer almost of as many coulors as he alledgeth autorities out off the Centuries that he was an Apostel in that sense that Paul and the rest off the Apostels were Which beside that yt is false they onely affirming that he was an Apostel is cleane contrary to that he alledgeth out off Caluin that it is taken there generally for any sent to preach and therefore it can not be taken in that signification off Apostels in which the 12 and Paul. yt is contrary also to that owt off Ambrose which saying that he was therefore called an Apostel because he was sent off Paul confirmeth in part that which I haue set downe that he was called an Apostle not in respect off any dignitie off ministery aboue others Ministers off the word but onely in that he was sent Finally contrary to that alledged owt of Theodoret which so calleth hym an Apostle that forthwith also he maketh him to be a Bishop When as if he be a Bishop he can not be such an Apostell as the 12. considering that they be twoo seuerall members off the ministers off the Gospell differing by the D. owne coÌfession at the least in the place of exercise off their misterie the bishop hauing an especiall bonde to his Bishopricke and the Apostel preaching Where he thincketh need Where he saithe also that it confirmeth his side that he is called the Apostell off the Philippians and other the Apostels off the churches for that thereby it may appeare that one may be Apostel off a kingdome or off a prouince he dalieth with his reader For in that place I alledged out off the 2. Corinthes 8. the Apostels off the churches are not so called in respect off any ministery off the word but off the almes which they were sent with And beside that the church off the Philip. was nether prouince nor kingedome but a particular church Epaphroditus is not called their Apostel in that he was sent off Saint Paul vnto them but in that the Philip. sent him to Saint Paul as the wordes which followe immediatly after obserued off Maister Beza doo declare So that yf that place
out off Bulling Muscul Heming to be preaching the gospell purely and constantly is nothing to the pourpose For we graunt yt is true but that there is further vnderstanded which may seuere hym from other ministers off the word Whereoff Caluin assigneth thes reasons one that by ascribing vnto him this degree aboue that off Pastors he might procure him more autoritie the other that he might thereby gyue the spur to stir vp and enforce him self to all carefull trauaile off answering so highe a calling Off both which reasons he assigneth a manifest cause which is that the Apostel throughout his whole epistle driueth vnto those two endes This is yet clearer for that where other titles off Apost Prophe c. be caried off the scripture from their particular vnto a generall signification this word off Euangelist set a part this place in controuersie is not vsed but to note that proper office opposed vnto other ministeries off the word And therefore the Apostel hauing occasion to speake off this word preacher shunneth as semeth the word Euangelist and vseth an other when as notwithstanding the word Euangelist was proper to holy writ and thother commen to prophane off which reason also I left a step in the place before recited Againe Eusebius howsoeuer otherwise he forgetteth him self where he speaketh off that proper office noteth it out by the same manner of speache which the Apostell saying they did the vvorcke off Euangelistes Last off all it appeareth by that the scripture setteth forth off him both before he was at Ephesus and after touchching his ministerie in many places where the Apostels had tawght before that the worcke off Euangelist is taken in that particular signification whereby it is seuered from other Ministers considering that the Euangelistes office was to water where the Apostles had planted and to be assistant vnto them His third answer is a mash and bruing of all together drinck fitter for horse then men For to be sure to make Timothe a bishop he thinketh that one at one time may be Apostle Euangelist Doctor bishop and I can not tell what which is directly against the word off god As when yt saith that God gaue some Apostels some Prophetes againe he set first Apostles secondly Prophetes c. Againe are all Apostels are all Prophetes c. Whereby appeareth that the holy gost placeth thes diuers giftes in seuerall persones and that they are one vnder an other so that onles one and the same maÌ may at one time be second and third inferior and superior before and after him selfe yt can not be that one at one time can be Apostle Euangelist c. hetherto perteineth which is towched in the former booke that the Apostel bringeth off the likenes off constitution off our bodies with the church that as the naturall bodie so the spirituall of the churche is best preserued and mainteined in most comelines when euery member doth his proper office and of the contrary side ââ th one so thother is hurt and disfygured when one breaketh vpon an other Whereuppon yt is euident how vntrue yt ys which the D. doth in so great assurance set downe that one may be Euangelist and Bishop at one time Besides that he is confuted by his owne wordes For if the office off an Euangelist be to preach more feruently then others which significatioÌ those three which he hath set downe onely as that which putteth a differeÌce betweÌ yt aÌd others caÌ staÌd theÌ he caÌ be no bishop coÌsidering that euery office hath his proper gift according to the measure whereof it is exequuted And yt is as absurd that a bishop should preach more ferueÌtly aÌd beyoÌd the measure of a bishop as yt is that a maÌ may leape beyond him self ouerrun himself yt is saide that one in his full age differeth from him selfe in his childhood and a man at one time may after a sort passe hym self at an other but that he should differ from him self at one and the same time as the D. iudgement implieth this is the first tydinges I haue heard off yt Againe yt is houlden off all that I haue red Zuinglius onely excepted which maketh a bishop and an Euangelist all one that both an Euangelist is not and a bishop is bound to a certaine place And this difference is thus far confessed off the D. that the Pastor is more bound to one speciall church then the Euangelist which yf yt be true a man being as he saith at one time both bishop and Euangelist may be also at one time bound and not bound vnto one place haue a speciall charge off one and indifferent off all which will be hard for him to bring to passe without he worcke miracles For his reasons whereupon this opinion standeth that Saint Paul is called a Doctor S. Mathew and Iohn being Apostels are off writers called Euangelistes they are far from prouing this Touching the fyrst Saint Paul ys not called a Doctor symply but with addition Doctor off the Gentils declaring that his Mynistry perteined not to one kingdome but vnto all which is all one with an Apostel Towching thother he should vnderstand that our question ys not off an Euangelist as writers but as Sainct Paul taketh Euangelist which can be by no meanes vnderstanded off him which writeth the storie off the gospell considering that Philip which is confessed to haue bene an Euangelist in that sense was none Yff he say that the Apostle ment to set forth twoo kindes of Euangelistes one preaching onely an other preaching and writing too I answer that Saint Paule pourposing there to set forth the liberalitie off the Lord in giuing preaching ministries vnto the church was nether so negligent a commender off the grace off God nor so drie and poore off speach but yf there had bene an other seuerall ministerie as this answer supposeth he both would and could haue vsed an other word as a seuerall dishe to haue presented this gift with And seyng the D. bringeth in S. Paul offring one onely gift of the bishoprik vnto the church in two wordes as it were two dishes what likelihood ys there that he would thrust vp so narrowly thes two giftes whereoff ech off them being more excellent then the bishoprick asketh greater roume Moreouer by the same reason that men may call Saint Mathew and Saint Iohn Euangelists becawse they wrote the stories of the gospell they may call S. Paul and Peter c. For as they wrote the storie so thes wrote the summe off the whole doctrine off the gospell They being therefore both writers off the gospell in this rule of esteeming Euangelistes by writing muste needes be a like Euangelistes For the greeke word fauoureth the one as well as the other yt being as ioyfull newes which S. Peter and Paul wrote as that which S. Mathew and Iohn For the difference off storie and summe bring not a graine weight to pull the name of
Euangelist and Prophet vnto the Pastor or bishop yf I say none of these be sufficient yet the D. hym selfe will help vs which in appointing the giftes off Prophetes and Euangelistes greater then those of the bishop proueth that he here denieth And although he take this libertie off denying thinges which none durst euer call into doubt yet he escapeth not so considering that although he make the bishop to take the wall off the Euangelist yet he can not do yt in the Apostels and Prophetes Therefore the absurditie remaineth still that the bishop being an inferior minister taketh vpon hym to make ministers which are aboue him He saith that the 7. of the Heb. maketh not for me becawse blessing is not there taken for consecration to the ministery yet the reason is all one For as the Apostel proueth that Melchizedech was greater then Abraham because he was the minister of God to pronounce the bessing vpon him in the name and autoritie of the Lord so he that ordeineth being a publike Minister off God to pronounce his assistance to wardes him that is to be admitted owght by the same reason to be greater then he Where I alledged out of Euseb that the Euangelistes did ordein bishops hauing nothing to answer he was content to take the benefit off the printers or writers fault which as casely might come to passe for the figure off 3. had set the figure off 2. where I shew that thes Euangelistes are superfluous yf the pastors and Doctors doo their dutie he asketh what iff there be not for euery church a sufficient Pastor Which being answered in an other place I answer also here that his Euangelistes should helpe to make vp the nomber Where he saith if euery church were prouided off an able Pastor yet for confirmation off the doctrine oftener preaching diuers worcking of God by one rather then an other the Euangelistes might doo good beside that he easely forgetteth the churches charge which being hardly able to mainteine their proper ministery should be ouercharged with those that ride abowt and beside that the Pastor being prouided vnto euery church the ouerplus owght to serue to fournish them off Doctors an other ordinarie mynisterie off the word he must know that able teachers can teach as often as the church can conueniently meet And it can not be denied but they haue the blessing off God promised to their labours before any other Yf there be any such great and vrgent need off confirmation off any point off doctrine the churches hard by may by dutie off godly neighbourhood help one an other in that behalff The place to proue the ceassing off this Mynisterie out off Eus is manifest to all that wil vnderstaÌd For in that speaking of the time about the yeare 162. he saith there vvere yet Euangelists he declareth that there were none in his time and that he saith with repetition there vvere there vvere all see that he wrote that with declaration off sorow that they hauing bene before were not then That which he answereth that they can not now goe from kingdome to kingdome becawse the miraculous gift off tounges is ceased maketh vtterly against him For Euseb putting that amongest other anÌexed to the office off an Euangelist left the reason off the want off that ministerie which he had before bewailed Which being the same now that was then yt followeth that as there was not then so there is not now any such function Thus much for the maintenance off the reasons which were set downe by me against the D. Apostels Prophetes c. it followeth to examin his First the reader may see the hardnes off the D. countenance which hauing diuers reasons alledged out of the scripture asketh notwithstanding for one word out off it which doth but insinuate thes offices to be temporall After he alledgeth Ephes 4. where vpon that it is saide that those with other Ministeries off the word were giuen off God for the gathering together off the sainctes vntill we all come vnto a perfect man he concludeth but vniustly that they are perpetuall ministeries For the offices off Apostelship c. may well haue their worck in the perfection off the church without such continuaÌce Which he might haue easely knowen if he had considered that which our Sauiour Christ saith that the fruit off their preaching should remaine Therfore although their ministrie were but for a time yet for as much as the fruit thereoff hath and shall haue her worck vnto the worldes end in the perfection off the church off God it might be well saide that they were gyuen for the gathering off the sainctes vntill they cam to a be perfect man Nether doo the wordes off the Apostle import continuance off all these offices For if all thes amongest them and euery one in his turne finish this worck yt is enough nothing falleth from the liberalitie off the Lord nothing from the truth off this word no more then he breaketh promis which vndertaking to furnish an other off all manner of worckmen vntill his howse be finished after foundations layed and patron left vnto carpenters and masons how to proceed in the rest off the building with draweth the master builder for as the lorde abated the nomber of sortes of builders so hathe he deminished the varietie off workes requisite to the building And as the offices off Pastor and Doctor which were not in the beginning off this building are saide to be gyuen to perfecting off it euen so thes functions off Apost c. although they be not in the end may likewise be saide But I merueil that the Answ doth not vnderstand that both this place of the Ephes and that off the Corinthes â 12. speak of such Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes as were noted with such markes off immediate calling extraordinary giftes c. as fall not into the Apostels Prophetes c. which he dreameth off If therefore he think that the Lord hath bound hym self by those wordes to continue thes degrees yt followeth that he is bound to furnish them with giftes proper to them For if promising such as S. Paul here meaneth he giue other kindes much inferior vnto them he thereby which all godly eares detest is argued off vntruth His other reason is that Prophetes in the 1. Corint 14. and Prophecie 12. Rom. are put as ordinary Whereunto I answer that the word Prophecie is taken sometimes not for that particular function Saint Paul speaketh off but generally for any publike instruction off the people in the will off god As when it is saied extinguish not the spirit dispise not prophecie That it ys so taken to the Rom. yt ys manifest for that yt ys deuided and altogether consumed into the ministeries off the word So that there being no ordinary minister off the word in the church which it embraceth not yt must follow that it is taken there for no particular function Which thing
may better appeare for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche the ministrie off the word which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes but vnto Bishops And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth is a simple Ministrie off the church that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded muste needes be diuers Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying to all which haue any gift off teaching and in that he doth so often oppose it to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung amongest the assembly of the faithfull His testimonies out off writers remaine wherein amongest the auncient he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose as I haue before declared which as yt ys full of confusion and disorder so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops and Euangelistes and Euangelistes be Deacons c. what maketh that to proue that there are beside the bishops and Deacons seuerall functions of Apostels and Euangelistes which is the question But how this fable is beaten down by all auncient antiquitie that may be a sufficient argument that the auncient writers in great consent speake off the whole ministrie off the church as deuided into thes three orders Bishops Elders and Deacons After that other ministries entred as doorkepers subdeacons c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off that durst peint out any their mynysteries with the names off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes For the new writers that the D. if his forhead be not of yron may learn to blush I will towch their Iudgment onely which he hath alledged for him self Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors and Doctors affirmeth that the tvvo last onely that is to say Pastors and Doctors are ordinary Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall and for a tyme affyrmeth that these perteine vnto thestate off the former church and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision sheweth that the function off Apost and Prophets are not in vse and that the ministrye of Prophets is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place Musculus deuideth the mynisteries off the vvord into those vvhich serued for the beginning off the gospell as Apost Euang. Proph. and those vvhich coÌtinue for euer as Pastors Doctors Elders Bishops Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship Prophetship and Euangelistship were instituted off the Lord for a tyme and that thes many ages euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ both Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are ceassed into vvhose place are come bishops Pastors Doctors and Elders Last off all the confession off the churches hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word mencioned off the Apostel concludeth that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche Bishops Elders Pastors and Doctors Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary that they were for a time that other are come into their places the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him Let yt now be noted how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth that God hath stirred vp Apostels or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche and hath doone so at this tyme. Within a lyne after he addeth yet I call that extraordinary because in churchs vvell dressed it hath no place Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke whereas vpon Maister Caluin so of my wordes which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit vvithout any calling off men he woulde conclude that the office is ordinary and perpetuall then which bouldnes what can be greater Out of Bucer he alledgeth that there be now EuaÌgelists Where if his maner of speach that there are found Euangelists could not yet that which he addeth that God doth it by merueilous meanes ought to haue kept him from that allegacion except he thinck that a miraculous calling be perpetuall and ordinary Out of the Confess is brought that thes offices off Apostles c. are mynistries off the new Testament els should they haue great iniury seing they were both in tyme and dignitie first but who the D. set a part would euer conclude therof that they are perpetuall ministeries especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes that the Apostles are ceased and Pastors come into their places which could not be yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth Where it saith that there are yet Prophetes yf that were not which I alledged out of it towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries from them which are now in vse yet the manner off speaking there are yet found the same with that of Bucer before alledged declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling For so we vse to speak of thinges rare and not in commen vse Last off all where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded yt doth not make for him but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop and against those which he hath cited in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other their names notwithstanding be confounded yt muste follow that not euery one which is called an Apostle or bishop c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other and which the Apostle meÌt to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle is sometimes called a Prophet Bishop Doctor Elder and Deacon yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries beside thabsurdities before shewed the vntruth doth manifestly appeare in the office off disposing off the churches money Whereoff the Apostles discharging them selues ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons And to vse those authorities which he hath brought Ierom calleth I say the Prophet both Euangelist and Apostel Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement as to think that he was ether off them in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise where he hath cited out off Caluin that Timothe was a Pastor when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor yt is cleare that he spake not off
the speciall function off a Pastor The same may be saide off Beza which calleth S. Paul a Bishop with diuers other wherin writers speaking off one in passing and not off pourpose content them selues with those generall titles which notwithstanding when they inquired into the natures off them as we doo here spake otherwise which vse is also noted off Cicero And to shut vp this matter it is to be vnderstanded that there be diuers significations off thes wordes Apostles Propheres Doctors c. for in generall signification they agree vnto all ministers off the word Considering that all are sent all feed teach and by a trope are saide to prophecie Their other signification which S. Paul setteth forth is particular and agreeth onely to onely to one seuerall ministrie Obserue then how the D. hath trifled when as a part off our question being whether there be now Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes in particular significatioÌ and as they differ aswell one from an other as from Pastors and Doctors he hath brought certein places where thes names be taken generally and as euery off them may be verified off all mynistries off the word as yf vpon that the Maior off the citie is called sometimes the officer sometimes the Magistrate he should conclude that he hathe three seuerall offices And where an other part off our question being whether these functions are now ordinary or extraordinary perpetuall or for some ruinous time he hath taken vpon him to proue them ordinary and perpetuall he hath alledged testimonies which confessing that some off thes ministeries haue bene found in our daies ad partly in expres wordes partly in wordes and circumstances of like valew that they were extraordinary that they are but for a time then which what can be greater mockery off his reader And so I trust yt appeareth aswell vpon the argumentes I haue vsed as vpon the shame off the D. answers that off all the mynisteries of the word reckened of S Paul there remaine onely Doctor and Pastor and that the function off Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes haue no place in the church onles the lord immediatly styr them vp withowt the ordinary calling by men Off the necessarie residence of the Pastor 4. Tractat. 5. according to the D. Cap. 1. Diuis 1. pag. 235. THe D. to deliuer the Non residents from the crime he ys charged with flieth from the iudgement off the word off God vnto his owne conscience so that yf he and his conscience although astonished or blindled can agree off some easier way theÌ is debated all mouthes are shut vp to speake against him And pa. 238. he saith that preaching and priuate exhortations must be according to the conscience and discretion off the Pastor which is too shamefull a saying In stead wheroff if he had put a good conscience which will admit no persuasion but out off the word off God he had openly begged that in question The lord knew too well the vnreformed corners and false doores of the best coÌsciceÌces to coÌmit his church which he loued so dearly vnto their courteousie When Saint Paul coÌfesseth that he was not as towching his ministrie iustified albeit his conscience cast him not in the teeth of any thing he had doon he declareth that the conscience is no sufficent rule to direct the minister in his charge ⪠Yet his was more Chryst allike then is to be hoped after off any now and when he saith that all the worckes off a good minister are taught out off the scripture inspired off God he incloseth the Pastor within streighter boundes then the Answ which leaueth him in the large field or wildernes rather sometime off his conscience sometime of the peoples pleasure That which he bringeth off the examples off the Apostels and Euangelistes is absurd considering that both the callinges are diuers and euen in the very point whereoff the question is towching the place yt is confessed of him that the Pastor hath one certein appointed him to exercise his charge which the other haue not Off this sorte is that he alledgeth after off sonas the Prophet whose mynistery was altogether extraordinary towardes the Nineuites Whiche yf yt proue any thinge yt proueth that the pastor after he hathe once laide open the synnes off his flocke and denounced the iudgement against them may goe his waies withowt ether deputy or returne Likewise that off S. Paul Act 20. free from the Ephes bloud becawse he had declared them the whole counsail off God. Which is first impertinent considering that the pastors teaching at his charge is not to be compared with the Apostels teaching at one church but at all the churches of his Apostelship Then yt ys apparantly againste him considering that the Apostle which cleareth him selfe off their bloude doth nowithstanding all the knowledge they had charge the pastors with watche and warde ouer them as those which should answer for them So that onles S. Paules diligence had bene poursued in feeding them which were alredy so well fed not the people onely but the pastors also should haue perished And euen the extraordinary callinges are so far from strenghthening thes startinges a side from appointed charges that they help to binde them more streitly to them ⪠for they had not onely a generall calling to execute their function but withall speciall direction vnto the persons and places vnto which the Lord would haue their ministrie to apperteine for when those off Nazareth thought muche that our Sau. Christ healed in other cyties off Galile and not in theirs where he was brought vp he alledgeth the calling off God which sent him to doo miracles in other places rather then there and sheweth the cawse why Elias rather relieued the extreme famin and Elizeus cured the leprosie of straungers then of their owne countrey for that they were sent vnto them Also desired to tary in a place he saide it was not at his libertie to tary but that he muste preach to other cyties alledging this reason that he was sent off his father so to doo Considering therefore that they had not onely generall callinges to doo their duties but also where and to whom muche more in the callinges which are ordinary and certein it owght to be obserued that men haue not onely callinges to preach but direction vnto the place and parties to whom they should preach Which because yt is not now without calling of the church yt followeth there can be none such That he addeth if he haue care off them is altogether from the cawse considering that the pastors care is but one part of his duty and may be taken off one neuer present Likewise that of his sufficient deputy beside that yt cometh after to be spoken of if the absence he phansieth be vnlawfull the deputy for yt ys idly mentioned I alledged that the Euangelistes and Apostles taried more in one place then in an other Which may be easely vnderstanded
ouer his second and third instructions and admonitions c. why may be not the first So it may come to passe which he deniing in vvordes doth in deed confirme that a Pastor may doo all by deputy That he alledgeth off God directing the preacher in his wordes and matter tendeth to Anabaptisme For aswell may it be alledged to proue that the Pastor may preach without study as withowt knowledge of the estate of his people as a meanes to direct both his wordes and matter to the most profit of his hearers Where he saith a discrete preacher will so temper his matter as he may profit all and hurt none Yf he had tould vs how and off what droges thaâ receipt is made which is fit at all times in all places I should better haue knowen what to haue answered In the mean season he is cleane beside the question vvhich is not whether a man may profit in preaching to the people whose estate he knoweth not but whether he profiteth more that knoweth yt He that casteth blindefold may hit the mark but no wise man will lay any thing on his head The reasons I brought to proue that the want off knowing the estate may ether hinder the fruit or gyue occasion off that daunger vvhich by knowing it might be auoided are for the moste part vntowched Heere his memory serueth him not for any place owt of the law which proueth continuall residence off the Pastor I will let passe the howses built rownd abowt and ioyning to the temple vvhich being doon off Salomon as was the rest off the building according to the vvord of God might declare how neer their charges the lord vvill haue the Ministers off the church Likewise I will not presse the example which is alledged off Ely sitting at the dore of the Tabernable to espy the manners and answer the doubtes off those vvhich entred I vvill content my selff vvith the Apostel the best expounder off the law vvho setting forth the Priestes function by that part off it vvhich consisted in sacrifices vseth a word off great strenght to binde them to a continuall residence and signifieth in effect a continuall sitting at their charge Now considering that the Pastors diligence is the same in his church that theirs was in their charge continuall presence being required off them the same or greater rather if greater can be is required off the pastor as he which hath greater trust committed vnto him That which is spoken off diuers beside the Pastor able to dissolue doubtes which arise not to meddle vvith the truth thereof nor to stay in the great giftes required in one that should comfort him that is cast downe whom the scripture affirmeth to be so care that a man shall skarce finde one amongest a thowsand I answer that it helpeth not not onely becawse they hanging of their Pastor know not to whom to haue recourse but also considering that the dissoluing off the doubt or comfort according to the necessity off the person dependeth not off knowledge onely but vppon the blessing which the Lord giueth that being therefore greater and more aboundant when yt is doon by the instrument vvhich the Lord hath sanctified for that pourpose yt followeth that if there vvere such supplies as he speaketh of yet the Pastors presence is necessary And therefore yt helpeth him not which he alledgeth afterward owt off the Coloss that they should admonish one an other in psalmes c. but maketh against him considering that if particular persons haue a duty off admonishing those that are fallen the Pastor hath much more And if the lord will not spare the meanes off the admonition off a priuate man for restoring off hym that is fallen he vvill much lesse spare the mynistery off the Pastor That which he often repeteth of help by reading off the scriptures is not to the pourpose For if the help of the Pastor be not requisite when the sheep are particularly stricken off the Lord there ys no necessary vse off hym at all And where the Lorde hath prouided resistance agaynst tentation not onely by reading but also and that especially by the lyuely voice off the Mynister what is els to betray the sheep vnto the woulf yf this be not to leaue them destitute off the moste principall meanes off their defense beside that the place off Tymothe 2. 3. is abused whilest he draweth those thinges to priuate men vvhich the Apostle speaketh off the Mynister off the word vvhom he calleth the man off God as the manner of the scripture is to call the Prophetes in which respect Saint Paul so calleth Timothe in an other place Nether dothe it belong vnto priuate persones to teach and to confute false doctrine which the Apostle sheweth to be a part off those good workes which scripture storeth that man off God with To the next diuision he answereth nothing but yet filleth vp the place as is there to be seen To that out off the Apostle and our Sauiour Christ off the Pastors presence that in going before his flock he might serue for a patron off good vvoockes he answereth that our Sauiour Christ and Sainct Paul serue for examples to those which neuer saw them and with whom they were not continually Albeit the light off their example shining so cleare might be seen off those which were far of yet the same followeth not in the pastors vvhose light is a great deal dimÌer Likewise the pastor being notas our S. Christ and S. Paul lightes off the world but off those howses ouer vvhich they are set ought to be placed vvhere they may giue most light vnto them CoÌsidering that it is vnmeet not onely to put the light vnder a bushell vvhere it is altogether vnprofitable but also vnder the table vvhere notwithstanding it may giue some comfortable remedy against the darcknes Therefore forsomuch as the example that may be both seen and heard hath more force to conforme the followers vnto yt then that which is onely heard the reason remaineth still vnanswered seing the question is not onely how he may serue for example but how he may doo yt to their moste aduantage To that of the restreint of Pastors to their proper flockes he answereth he wrote not to Pastors onely but to all in generall that haue the name off Elders his reason therof that Peter saith he was also an elder is senseles and hath no maÌner of tast I vvill not stick to coÌfesse that S. Peter vvrote in those wordes to other Elders then the Pastors yet that he vvrote to them onely that vveretied to particular congregacions which mainteineth the reply yt ys manifest by the vvordes alledged owt of S. Peter Wherein yf I haue brought the right sense he owght to haue rested els to haue confuted thereasons wherewith that translation is vvarranted and the other vvhich he setteth downe remoued and not thus coÌfusedly to make a mashe of all And it auaileth him
not to seek corners in the diuers interpretation off the place when as that off the Actes doth in plaine and confessed speach vtter the same that is here debated off After he addeth howsoeuer the place be expounded yet it maketh not against him No if S. Peter and Paul crye neuer so highe in this language of continuall residence yet the D. is deaf and will not heare Yf both the Apostles doo not only commaund the Pastors to feed in their proper flockes not onely that they must employ their talentes but vvhere yt ys manifest that they shut owt that rouing abroad vnto other churches vvhich is pretended for Non residence I shewed how the argument is good taken from the place off the Thessal that for so much as S. Paul conceiued a great greif in being absent a small space from those to whom he was not so streitly bound as the Pastor to his flock the Pastor owght muche more to be greiued to be away from his flock And consequently thereoff must follow that if their absence sat so neer their hartes as yt owght yt would hang such plummets off their heales as should hinder them from those lightfooted leapes which he mainteineth I added also that the Pastor hauing the same dutie vnto his proper church vvhich the Apostles had tovvardes all the churches of their charge yt must follovv that as they vvere continually in their ministery tovvardes some off those churches so the Pastor should be continuall vppon the charge off his church That he bringeth against this that the Apostle did not speake this in any duty off mynistery for that a learned man noteth off that place how the sainctes desire to see one an other bodely is ridiculous as if his desire to see them could not stand with the duty off the his mynistery In the two next diuis vnto the reasons alledged off the Pastors care so much more stirred vp as he seeth the blessing of God vpon his labour and of familiar acquaintaÌce needfull in a Pastor tovvardes his flock to embolden them to come vnto him both vvhich are best procured by continuall residence he answereth nothing where I alledged the singular loue by this meanes vvrought betvvene the Pastor and the flock he asketh me how I know it seing I had neuer experience in any I know yt of the cawses off loue whereoff the daily conuersation and delight to be together is one off the principall off naturall reason which I cyted owt off Aristotle that teacheth how men haue greater care ouer thinges proper vnto them then ouer those that are commen to them with moe And hauing greater care yt followweth they haue greater loue from whence the care proceedeth Likewise I know yt by experience in the Apostle S. Paul which vttereth greater affections off loue towardes the Corinth and Philip. and other with whom heremaineed longest and suffred moste for then towardes the other churches where he made not that abode nor tooke so great paines He asketh what Aristotle had to doo with non residence if yt had bene but Balams asse he should haue bene schoolemaster fit enough for some which refuse to be taught by the vvord off god But this is one off M. D. oracled which he saith owght to be belieued considering that speaking off the naturall causes off preseruation of thinges for which I alledged him he spake of thinges perteining to his profession That he chargeth me with not reporting Aristot vvordes truly is a wrangling cauill for I kept the sense off the autor considering that a thing commen to many requireth the care off many That he saith it can not be true that it is neglected off all which is cared for off all is to childish considering the flower off speach so often vsed off all writers both prophane and holy as they liuing are dead hauing nothing possesse all thinges he that is euery where is no where Nether is care taken in lesse measure then yt owght to be which I speake off contrary to neglect as he supposeth but a kinde off neglect That he addeth a man owght not so take care off hit priuate thinges as to neglect the commen wealth is froÌ the pourpose seing the pastor in his charge ouer his flock serueth not him self but the commen profit and that off the whole church forasmuch as it perteineth to the commoditie off the vvhole body that the part which he hath the nourishement off be well preserued beside that I haue shewed how the care for other churches may be with a continuall residence at his owne In the next diui skowring ouer againe the remouing of Apostles and EuaÌgelistes from place to place which is answered he addeth that the Pastors did the same which is vtterly vntrue that a man may be transferred from one place to an other which is no part of the question that those which haue gyuen their names to the gospell are sufficiently armed with faith although the Pastor be not present which is absurd when the armour off faith with the rest off the complete harnesse off o Christian which he speaketh off in the next diuis is not so put vpoÌ but that it is daily to be put on and that by the preaching off the gospell especially He saith further that although they be tempted yet they can not be ouercome which is confuted not ânely by diuers examples of moste excellent sainctes Noe Dauid Peter c. but by whole churches off Galatia c. which haue bene caried away by false teachers For if he speake off the finall victory yt is absurd consydering that that dependeth off the election off God vnknowen vnto him and may be aswell saied off the elect which haue not yet belieued Likewise that it is a more acceptable worck to gaine those which are altogether in ignorance vvherein beside that he taketh vppon him to be a planter off churches which before he assigned to be proper to the Apostles I answer that albeit it be neuer so good a worck in yt self yet it is not good much lesse the best vnto him which hath no calling therunto And in that he presumeth a calling he doth but beg that in controuersy which is also before refuted That he alledgeth off the loste groat ⪠Prodigall sonne c. maketh against him considering that those places are not off straungers from the church but off them vvhich after knowledge off the truth fall into some corruption of life or doctrine as appeareth in the parable of the stray sheep which although it be of the same kinde with thother two he hath by all likelihood left owt because it did more plainely shew his folie In this respect also S. Iames saieth that a man that gaineth his brother straied from the truth sâueth a sowle He saieth his brother not his neighbowr Therefore this moste excellent worck off conuerting sinners and finding off those which are lost being alwaies in the purest churches through the ambicion
he hath off one vvhen that one is able to mainteine him and his familie honestly he answereth not yet was it necessary to be answered considering that therby the peinting of that Zeale vnder pretence whereoff they spred their nettes ouer so many churches is washed away Where he accuseth me whotly other of deceiuing or being deceiued in that the Councell off Nice is put withowt the addition off Second wherby yt might be seuered from the purer Councell off Nice I can not precisely say whether the leauing owt off Second were my fault or the fault off some other but that I meant to deceiue none there be which can witnes by that that in the second edition howsoeuer yt was omitted I gaue a note wherby that should be corrected His reasoÌ wherwith he would proue that I ment to abuse the reader for that I set it before Damasus is to friuolous considering that that conterfeict Damasus mentioned in the first Tome off councels was not before this second Councell and yt is not vnwonted to put the iudgemeÌt off a councell before that off a particular person As for the corruption off the Councell I haue shewed how that maketh more against the D. then if the testimonie had been fetched from the first Councell And where he saith the Councell ment that one should not haue permitted vnto him moe great cyties then one yt is a shameles corruption off the minde off the Councell Considering that the drift theroff is that one should not haue more to liue one then is needfull to mainteine him self competently and therfore is coÌtent as it were to wincke at those which are placed in poore churches not able to mainteine their Pastor albeit it inclineth rather to this that he should supply that which is wanting by some honest occupation That he addeth that Gratian him self doth so expound it all men vnderstand how vnsauourly yt is spoken As yf it were any meruaile that Gratian so expounded yt which is knowen to be an open corrupter off the Councels and manifestly in this point off hauing many benefices not onely in this councell but in that off Calcedon For where the Councell decreed that no man might be ordeined in tvvo cyties he doth impudently dally with it saying he may be notvvithstanding Archebishop of one cytie and bishop of an other prouided that he enioy the one as intituled to yt and the other by vvay off commendation Which is but a toy to mock an ape As if a man should say that yt were not lawfull to haue two wiues at ones but yet he might haue two weomen one vnder the title off a wife an other of a lemÌend This interpretation off the Councell is yet made worse by the D. for he addeth that a Pastor may not be ordeined in moe great cities then one as thoug the Councell would permit one to be ouer diuers small cyties The proofe browght by the Councell that euery one ovvght to tary in that vocation vvherin he is called is fit The reason against yt that the Apostle speaketh off the kinde off vocation and not off the place is fonde as thowgh yt were not a mannes calling to doo that he hath to doo in one certein place or as thowgh yf the soldier or embassadour commaunded to serue in one place serue in an other he offended not against this rule off the Apostle Where fault is found that I set downe councels in the plurall numbre alledging but one he dealeth very streightly which will not suffer me to speake as other doo but that there may be councels let him learne that the same was decreed in the councell off Toledo Wherunto I ioyne Maister Hopers iudgement which saith that no man off vvhat giftes soeuer may haue tvvo liuinges and therfore he is not so much a shepherd which hath many flockes as the D. saith as a theef seing not able to doo the office of a Pastor towardes them he pilleth them Towching Damasus that his pourpose was nothing les then to condemne idle bishops him selfe idlest off all shal be seen in an other place when yt shall appeare that he had no good meaning in thes wordes Notwithstanding the comparison which likeneth the Pastors that put ouer their charge vnto harlots that gyue their children to other to nourse that they may sooner gyue them selues to lust being apt I tooke as a good stone set in an euill place In the next diu the first part that it is better that one should haue diuers flockes then any be vntawght is answered in that yt is both better that one church be sufficiently fed then all insufficiently and it is alledged before and after how the want off preachers is in part becawse they are not sought after in part because they are driueÌ owt which were placed The other part is also answered All the Answer witnesses browght in to proue that Denis the Monkish pope fyrst deuided parishes and Dioceses are suspected Polidore whom he hath chosen to speake in the name off the rest doth as the D. hym selfe hath doon falsifie the wordes off the Monke Considering that he saith not that he appointed dioceses but parishes and churche yardes onely making no mention off dioceses Wherupon the Canonistes them selues say that boundes off bishoprickes were deuided long before Both which opinions shall appeare more at large to be false where I shall shewe God willing by what practises the bishoppes stretched owt their armes so far Afterward the man in going abowt to shew mine proclaimeth his owne ignorance For where he saith ther was no limitation off place in the Apostles tyme he is greatly deceyned For beside that there is almoste in euery story before the Apostles often mention off prouinces wherinto the gouernementes were deuided Cicero maketh mention off the diuision off prouinces into dioceses The Romans likewise before the Apostles had their Curias the same with the greeke word wherof our word parish is taken Also towching the very word parish by that Eusebius reciteth owt off Apolonius a Senator off Rome who liued about the yeare off our Lord 180. of Montanus vvhich could not be receiued not so much as of his ovvne parish vvhence he vvas yt appeareth that it was both in vse and in the same signification that we take yt long before Denis off whom the D. would father this diuision off Parishes was bishop So yt is manifest thes diuisions were before the Monkes tyme yea before the Apostles time And where he saith all men may know that limitation off Parishes and dioceses could not be made but off men in authoritie and theruppon concludeth that it could not be made by the Apostles yt is very true towching the precise limitacion but how is he so blinded that he can not also therby see that yt is an idle dreame that he so greatly stryueth for that Denis limited dioceses parishes c considering that the Denis he supposeth lyuing
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ⪠yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether theÌ nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heaueÌ throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake aÌd my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knoweÌ forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
seely Sophistery it is and whether this whole diuis declare the D. spoiled off all both conscience and iudgement I leaue yt to be considered off all men The 5. Tract and 6. vn the O. Off preaching Mynisters HEere may be iustly renewed the complaint of the prophet that the preists did not onely them selues not execute their charge according to the lawes giueÌ in that behalf but gaue those also entrance to whom the lord had vtterly denied it For yt is not enough for the D. to feed hym selff and others with the bloud off the church in defense off the vnlawfull absence off the Pastor onles by this maintenance off vnpreaching ministers as yt were by banner spred he make a feast theroff vnto all the rauening and Cormorant foules in the land And so as if it were a small thing to beare the condemnation off his owne parishes he stretcheth owt his hand to haue part in the gilt off others And although this defense may seem to be gyuen to thes wofull readers yet if we gyue a litle heed we shall easely perceiue that both this puddle aÌd others which depend vpoÌ it returne to fill if it were possible the Ocean sea off non residents For noÌ residence would bring litle ether to filling off cofres or bathing off them in the delightes off the world or to what other thing soeuer they in their absence propound vnles there were such hungry knightes as would for a crust of bread supply this absence Now for remouing off thes sweepinges owt off the church ministery we must come backe to a diuis towching this matter Where yt is saied that the people need not pine away for lacke off foode seing they haue one to reade c yt is but a begging off that in question for is this the diet which God hath appointed to his children or portion he hath commaunded his faithfull seruantes to gyue vnto his family in due season or that delicate table and cup that runneth ouer are thes the housholders which before they set vp or take the charge off housekeping haue filled all the ir garners furnished all their cellars frawght all their threasuries with all store newe and oulde fitte to enterteine the sonnes and dawghters off the great kinge off heauen we is vnto that how 's holde that hathe such a stewarde and wo shall be vnto that stewarde that vppon suche prouision vndertaketh the stewardshippe off the howse off god But wo and wo againe shall be to him that not onely him selfe famisheth the how sholde which he hathe but teacheth others to doo so and not onely doth euill but iustifieth the euill doer A. great parte off the D. alowance here cometh to be examined after as that bare reading is not able without Gods extraordinary worke to deliuer one sowle and that homilies are not seruiceable in this solemne bancket Now to runne throwgh the reste I answer prayers and Sacramentes forasmuche as they take effecte by the preachinge off the worde where that is not those doo not onely not feede but are ordinarily to further condemnation That whiche the Curates can gyue before they haue learned their Cathechisme of wiche tyme is here spoken is poison and no meate so that hetherto they maie pyne for any thinge that the Answ setteth before them in suche sorte especially as he settethe yt All the hope therfore off delyueringe them from famyn hangeth vppon the well disposed preacher whiche if he feede another flocke withe the hinderance off his owne or hauinge no flocke goe abowte in circuite whether so euer he thincketh good I will not dente but the one and the other maie haue a good meaninge therin but whether the lorde alowe off it onles he be able to shew the seale off some extraordinary calling I leaue yt to be considered of that which hathe bene before disputed I omit that I know my selfe that within seuen myles of Cambridge there haue bene parishes where one off thes sermons was not in fowre whole yeares Which if yâ be so neere Cambridge where the greatest number off those preachers be what is to be thowghte off other places off the Realme Onles yow counte euery reproche and raylinge worde an argumente here is no worde to proue that yt is meete to enioyne mynisters to learne Cathechismes that is to saye to proue that they maie be ministers off the worde before they haue learned the Christian A. B. C. which children off seeen yaere olde in reformed churches can answer vnto They are necessarie poinctes whâ he are tawghte there So ys the A. B. C. to him whiche will learne to reade they are the weightieste thinges in our Religion Els they coulde not be the foundations whiche vphold the whole buildinge To haue saide somethinge yow shoulde haue saide they are the hardeste and difficulteste poinctes off religion but that yow can not those beinge without the circuite off a Cathechisme I am contente therfore yow shall praise the booke withe what wordes yow will but when yow haue doon looke that yow leaue yt a Catechisme that is to saie a treatise of the firste elemeÌtes or A. B. C. off Christianitie And then yt followeth that yowr enioyninge off yowr mynisters to learne it doth necessarily presuppose ignorance off those thinges the wante off knowledge wheroff in that age not onely owghte to remoue them from the colledge off mynisters but leaueth them no place till they be better instructed to syt amongest the Christians And if yow thinke this no discredite at all yow haue yowr credite seperate from the credite off the churche whiche is discredited dishonored yea vtterly destroied by suche blinde eyes And I maie further saie that he whiche thinketh this no discredite maie be feared to seeke credite in the ignorance off the mynisters whilest amongeste such a blinde companie his sighte maie be somewhat aÌd whilest he maie vse their simplicitie to the establishmente off that tyranny which a learned mynistrie woulde neuer beare But because the Ans can saie nothinge let vs heare what the Heluetian confession fully repeted againe 253. and yet againe 484. mentioned also the fowrth time saithe for them vvee condemne all vnmeete mynisters not indued vvith gyftes necessarye for a shepherd that shoulde feede his flocke What doo I heare doo yow condemne all c hearken Maister D. heere is sentence off condemnation gyuen off those whiche yow defende Was there no easier worde to vse but condemninge yf they had onely saide they approued them not speakinge owte off the worde off God as they doo yt had bene a shrewde blowe But in sayinge flatt'y that they condemne them they haue saide what they coulde for the vtter sweepinge them owte of the church as longe as yt standeth And take this also with yow that in condemninge them they condemne the making and defence of them Thus our ignorante ministers haue once passed the condemnation off the churches and in this condemnation they lie and shall lie as longe
by this meanes from the maiestie off the scriptures and making them dâââe c. amplified in the next diuis by asking why the scriptures were then written with other suche too too idle questions which I am ashamed to defile my penne with is vnworthy the name of a reason As yf in that reading maketh meÌ fitter to heare the word preached and to seeke after yt in that yt helpeth to nourish faith engrended in that it confirmeth a man in the doctrine preached when by reading he perceiueth yt to be as the preacher tawght in that it renueth the memory off that was preached which otherwise would decay I say as if in thes respectes and such like the profit off reading and committing the word to writing were not singular and inestimable beside that it is not denied but the Lord may extraordinarily gyue faith by reading onely although the order which God hath put is to saue by folishenes as it is esteemed off preaching beside also that yt is absurd that the D. asketh why els the gospell should be writter as yf there were no other cause of writing off it then that it should be simply redd or as though the principall cawse was not ⪠that yt should be preached But to retourne to the D. exposition First it ouerthroweth the argument off the Apostle For the Iewes offended that he and other preached to the GeÌtils prouing first that the inuocation off the name of God perteineth vnto them he concludeth therupon that preaching vnto them was lawfull considering that they could not otherwise come to call vpon the name off God where by the D. expositioÌ the Iewes might haue excepted that his mynistery towardes them was not therby iustified forasmuch as they might come to inuocation by reading onely withowt his and others ministery off preaching Furthermore the Apostle S. Paul affirming in plaine wordes that the preaching he speaketh off can not be made but by him vvhich is sent yt is first manifest that reading priuately is cleane shut owt from being conteined vnder this preaching For faith comming onely by that preaching aÌd that preaching onely lawfull by the sending of God and publicke calling it followeth that except he will say that the scripture may not be redd priuately onles a man be publikely called therunto that both priuate reading of the scripture can no be conteined vnder the Apostles word of preaching and that faith onles by extraordinary worcke of God can not be engendred by priuate reading Forasmuch as it is engeÌdred only by that preaching vnder which priuate reading is not conteined And so goeth to the ground one peece off the D. assertion Now if priuate reading onely can not ordinarily engender faith I would know how publike reading onely can doo yt Beside that when publike reading may be by a simple reader which hath no other charge in the church and off whom this solemne fending can not be vnderstanded yt followeth that faith can not by publike reading onely be engendred Forasmuch as he being none off those sent his reading can not be that preaching by which faith is engendred I say that a reader onely can not be off those sent the Apostle speaketh off not onely because he hath regard vnto the ministeries off the word appointed by God but also for that the place off Esaie owt off which he proueth that faith cometh not but by preaching will by no meanes suffer to cary the word preacher vnto a simple reader For beside that it were friuolous to refer the lifting vp off the voice off those preachers wherunto the Prophet exhorteth vnto a loude reading which is vnderstanded of earnestnes and diligence in preaching that voice he speaketh off is the voice off the churches vvatchmen ⪠which title when yt can not agree vnto a simple reader that hath no further charge then to reade in a booke according to the prescript off others yt is manifest that a simple reader can not be conteined vnder S. Paules preacher seing he can not be conteined vnder Esaies which is the same with S. Paules For when the title off vvatchman draweth a continuall care and circumspection ouer those he watcheth and the reader for any thing his office requireth may occupy him self in any worldly busines sauing onely the time off his reading yt is cleare that he is no church watchman Nay the reading mynisters which haue charge off sowles committed vnto them can be none off this order of watcheman seing they can not onely not see the ennemy a far of but not hard by much les discry him yt perteining to an instructed pastor which according to the circumstance off the inuasion knoweth to apply his watche word Now seing simple reading nether priuate nor publicke can be conteined vnder the preaching S. Paul speaketh off Rom. 10. which is an interpretation and laying open the scriptures by a publike mynister apt and autorised therunto yt followeth that faith which the Apostle teacheth no otherwise to come but by that preaching cometh not ordinarily by symple reading I omit heere that the Apostle vseth to expresse this preaching both by crying and telling good nevves wheroff when yt can not be shewed owt off scripture or as I am perswaded owt of any other autor that ether of them much les both together is vsed for simple reading yt followeth that simple reading can not be vnderstanded by the word preaching To proue that bare reading ingendreth faith he citeth Iohn 5. repeted pag. 574. 2. Timo. 3. whereto perteine Math. 7. Act. 17. 1. Iohn 4. Gal. 1. disorderly placed pag. 717. but to no pourpose For when our Sauiour biddeth the Iewes search the scriptures he referreth them by that search to iudge off the doctrine he had preached before which proueth no fruict off reading when there is no preaching beside that it will be hard for him to refer the word search to reading onely as if one could not search the scriptures when he attendeth to them alledged in sermons yea he is confuted by the place him selfe hath alledged Where he would proue that the scripture red in respect off making the hearers more apte to discerne off preaching is better then preached for when the Apostle teacheth the Galatians to hould them accursed which preache other doctrine then they had receiued by his preaching he dooth flatly make his preaching the rule to examin other preachings by The place off Tim. being as I haue shewed off the proper duties off the minister off the word in preaching making no manner off mention off reading is alledged withowt all iudgement Hether refer Bucers Testimony in his former diuision which maketh for that set downe in this For Bucer setting him self to commend reading in the churche saith twise bare or onely reading confirmeth in the knovvledge off the Doctrine which necessarily presupposeth a knowledge foreplaced or euer yt can be confirmed by reading onely Where as if he might it is to be thowght he would haue
diligent reading where not daring as it semeth say planting he hath chaunged it wheroff the question was for tilling belike becawse he remembred he had saied before that yt is proper vnto the Apostles to plant Where againe his cawse receiueth an other wound For if planting be by preaching and not by reading then in this respect preaching is more effectuall then bare reading Then that he saith killing and watering may be applied to reading he should to mainteine his cause haue saied as well or as muche To that off the people perishing vvithovvt prophecy vvhich is not bare reading but expounding and applying off scriptures he answereth that the people muste needes decay in holines and knowledge where there be no preachers but why doth he say decay and not perish as Salomon speaketh where his cause falleth flat to the ground For if the people perish where be no preachers althowgh there be readers and coÌtrariwise preaching withowt bare reading saueth engendreth faith and nourisheth yt yt is manifest that the word redd is not so effectuall as preached and that by bare reading ordinarily there is no saluation and therfore also no faith both which he before denied And if the people perish withowt preaching which haue already bene lightened by it how muche more except the Lord worcke extraordinarily must they perish that neuer had preaching Where he saith both preaching and bare reading be necessary in the church yf he meane publikely as yt is true in preaching so yt is vntrue in simple reading For although yt be very conuenient which is vsed in some churches where before preaching time the church assembled hath the scriptures redd in suche order that the whole Canon theroff is oftentimes in one yeare run thorough yet a nombre of churches which haue no such order of simple reading can not be in this point charged with breach of Gods commaundement which they might be if simple reading were necessary Considering especially that some off them beside their set sermons expounding euery day paraphrastically two chapters with the principall pointes theroff taken and applied vnto their auditors gaine that which the D. owt of Bucer presupposeth to come onely by simple reading that the scripture therby is made familiar vnto the people Where he saith they be moste profitable the wine off this error so fumeth into his head that it hath taken away the vse off his toung for two thinges to one and the same end can not but very vnproperly be saied most profitable For if preaching be moste profitable to worcke faith by then is not reading if reading theÌ is not preaching it is true that meÌ sometime speake so when the questioÌ is not of comparison betweene those thinges they speake off but otherwise it is altogether straunge Where he saith preaching is more apt for the ignorant and vnlearned and that he denieth not this the vntruth theroff is apparant For if preaching be more profitable to the vnlearned then reading and de at least as profitable to the learned then yt is false that he hath set downe with so great assurance that reading is as effectuall as preaching seing the effect we speake off is the profit off the hearers Yet as a man strawght off his wittes striketh him selfe he ouerthroweth this also in an other place for in asking why Iosia caused the lawe to be redd ⪠except it had as great force to perswade redd as preached he signifieth the contrary off that heere affirmed Considering that the greatest part was off the commen people and that grosse as those which newly came owt off filthy idolatry Further if preaching were as meet for the learned and meeter for the rude then his reason there which imagineth that Iosia would not otherwise haue caused the law to be redd onles there had bene as great fruict in reading as preaching falleth flat Considering that the D. confesseth that preaching is more effectuall to the people and I thincke dare not deny but it is as effectuall to the learned Therfore the reason why Iosias cawsed the law to be redd was not becawse reading was as effectuall as preaching but because being both redd and preached yt profiteth more then when yt is symply redd Where he saieth marry haue bene called by bare reading he saith yt againe and againe but withowt all proofe For where altogether owt off place his pourpose being to proue that reading edifieth more then preaching he faith God vsed reading at a meanes to call Augustine yt is vaine seing the question is whether he vsed that onely meanes for yt appeareth that August had greatly profited in godlines before that time wherin he heard the miraculous voice which sent him to reading Beside that the voice he telleth off going before his reading will not suffer that that reading onely may chalenge the whole meanes off conuersion Likewise that he affirmeth owt M. For off many browght to light off the gospell by reading onely he maketh not nor as I am perswaded could make yt appeare Although yt be confessed that that may be doone by the Lordes extraordinary worcking which feedeth sometime with quarles in the wildernes Yet yt is hard to shewe any time wherein there haue bene professors off the gospell and God hath not raised vp some ministers which haue ether openly or secretly as the time required preached the word considering that euen in those desolations of the church the Lord by his tvvo vvitnesses promiseth that the church shal not be destitute off true ministers Where confessing the vvord preached and red all one I shew notwithstanding that as the fyre stirred gyueth more heat so the vvord as yt vvere blovven by preaching flameth more in the hearers then vvhen it is redd he answereth that this is to ione with the Papistes in condemning the scriptures of obscurity but reason he can shew none and it is all one as if one should be charged to haue saide that the Sonne is darck for that he affirmeth yt lighter at noone daies then at the Sonne rising Then he muste vnderstand that we place not this difference of lightsomnes in the worde which is alwaies in it selfe most lightsom red and preached but partly in the ordinance off God before noted making that the speciall meanes partly in the darcknes of our vnderstanding which withowt the aide off preaching can not come to sufficient knowledge off yt Lastely he must learne that althowghe all thinges necessary to saluacion might by reading onely be vnderstanded yet yt followeth not that a man may by reading onely be saued For yt is one thinge to haue the scripture in his head another to haue it in his heart one thinge to vnderstaÌd yt another to beleue yt which beleef being onely able to saue ys ordinarily onely ingendred by preaching Wherby also we haue a peece off remedy against another poison spit forthe in this diuis that to those which vnderstand the scriptures they are as whot and lightsome red as preached
For where in his former assertion although not in wordes yet in deed he vtterly condemned the wisedome off God ordeining pastors and Doctors for continuall functions in the church of whom there is no vse if simple reading be as effectuall as preaching that being wrung owt off his handes in that he is compelled to confesse greater efficacy off preaching towardes the vnlearned yet rather theÌ all this cobweb should be vnweaued he maketh the ministery off preaching voide towardes the learned Wheras the scripture doth not onely generally but particularly and expresly shut vp the saluation off the learned in the meanes off preaching as off the vnlearned But this is a peece off the doctorall diuinity of some in Camebridge which to excuse their shamefull contempt off preaching and to make them a pillow to sleepe on or to pane them an alley to bowle in during sermons in the afternoone shame not to alledge that they caÌ profit as much in reading the scriptures or an homily owt off Chrysostome in their study as by hearing a sermon in the church Vnto the example off the Eumuche vvhich reading the scripture belieued not vntill he heard Philip preach he answereth that he vnderstood yt not and that he speaketh off an vnderstanding reader Which although it be vntrue the wordes off his former booke being generall withowt so much as the least signification off exception yet it is nothing worth For the cause why he could not vnderstand yt is there assigned for that he had no teacher to shew him the way Wherby followeth not which the Papistes conclude off this place that the people owght not to read the scriptures seing the Eunuch which both knew and confessed that he could not vnderstand withowt a guide exercised him self diligently in reading off them but this followeth that a man can not ordinarily not onely come to saluacion but not so much as to a sufficient knowledge off it withowt preaching Where off infinite examples he saith one is as few as may be yt appeareth this one was to muche for him to answer Now for all the false accusations off ioyning with papistes in despising off reading the scripture c. once heare yowr one proces that yt is yow that strengh then their handes For as in popery by committing the office off preaching especially vnto the beggerly friers and by declaring it more honorable for the bishop to reade a masse then to preach a sermon they set reading in the head and preaching in the taile so yow making simple reading as profitable as preaching hasten after them and if yow keepe the same pase yow haue begon it will not be long or euer yow ouertake them The D. hauing before made simple readers equall with preaching pastors in that he holdeth simple reading as effectuall as preaching heere in making bare reading better then preaching preferreth the readers aboue the preachers But in this later absurdity first as before he woulde make Musculus his pack-horse and therfore brawleth becawse I laied it not vpon Musc so princely is the D. that he would haue his faultes whipped vppon an other mans skin but at least I should haue deuided it between them As if I were matched with Musculus but the truth is that he maketh not for him For he compareth the profit taken of symple reading and off a sermon made of him which endeuoreth to make a glorious shew off eloquence and learning rather then to apply him self to the capacity off the simple which is nothing to that in hand where good reading is coÌpared with good preaching And therfore it is ridiculous the D. bringeth of bitter inuectiues and contentious sermons c. compared with orderly reading For in this comparison it were not hard to proue which is blasphemy that yt is better to reade a peece off Lyuy then the bookes off the kinges namely if Lyuy be simply red and the other with interlining and mixture off popishe interpretation If one defending this would for maintenance off his comparison bring this escape would not all men hisse at him this is his refuge also to salue that he saied off homilies red better then sermons preached His other instance off a papist carying preiudice against all preachers and therfore not moued once by their doctrine in which notwithstanding after by reading he is established is insufficient for if the Lord by his vertue shewed throwgh preaching doo conuert men vttenly peruerted and at enmity with all truth and consequently with the ministers theroff how much more will he therby conuert papistes which by doubting whether the gospell be truth or their superstitions haue ground or no cary not that enmyty the other doo which haue no such entrance Then yow muste vnderstand that as in the SacrameÌtes the Lord doth not alwaies at the same tyme they are ministred worcke by his spirit but chooseth the time that seemeth good to his wisedome so yt is in preaching wherby yt cometh to passe that the spirit of God worcking faith at the time of reading wrought it not by that meanes onely but vsed therunto the help off preaching which went before For as greene wood laied vpoÌ fire and her with many strong blastes as laste set on fire and flaming with one and that a soft blaste is not to be be saied chiefly set on fire with the soft blaste because it weÌt immediatly before euen so the word off God blowen by preaching and after sensibly burning in the hearres of the hearers by the meanes off reading immediatly gone before is not so muche to be ascribed vnto reading as preaching Considering that so it might comme to passe which is absurd that contemplacion off the creatures should profit more then reading For wheras the Lord hath seth the print off the moste off his promises and other doctrines in the creatures for example off his fatherly care off prouiding al thinges necessary for his in the prouision for birdes off the ayer and rich array off the lilies off the field yt may comme to passe that that doctrine knowen by meanes off preaching and lying as yt were dead in the heart may after by sight and earnest vewe off the thinges them selues be quickened yet none off iudgement will say that the beholding off the creatures wrrowght more in this then preaching Howbeit if the cases he putteth in this point were true yet he is inexcusable thes plaisters comming a ye are and a half after the wound giuen by such straunge speach which owght to haue gone with yt if peraduenture they might althowgh not heale yet somewhat hide the lothsome rawnes Hytherto perteineth that which he hath disorderly put pag. 176. where he saith that the reading off Saint Paules epistles did the Romanes more good theÌ preaching which is coÌtrary to S. Paules meaning who sheweth that he could not haue the like fruice off his ministery towardes them as off other nations because he was letted to comme and preach vnto
I will not deny but some other deceiued by him might fall into that error Vnto whom althowgh I could oppose an other flatly expounding these verses off reading ioined with exposition the exposition off the former not shutting owt preaching yet I had rather my confutation stand of reason then autoritie Which is that the holy gost shewing in the 7. verse that the Leuites made the people vnderstand the law in the 8. sheweth howe they did it for saith he they redd in the booke off the lavv distinctly and in giuing the sense caused them to vnderstand the reading Wheras those wordes which are tourned gyuing the sense can not ãâã withowt a gap be caried to the peoples attentiue hearing considering that it is spoken in that verse off the Leuites withowt resuming off the people ether expresly naming them or obscurely by any article Which hard translations when an other sense doth well agree to the suit off the text are by all meanes to be auoided That thes wordes the Leuites cavvsed the people vnderstand the lavv be nothing els but they made them gyue diligent eare vnto the reading yt is violent For beside that it is against the generall rule not to run to a figuratiue speach when the simple will which the D. can not deny agree with the residue off the text especially when both this and the other interpretation they gaue the sense are confirmed by the practise off the churche yt is vnconfirmed by any conference off scripture or circumstance of place confuted also by that this word is expounded by an other they made them knovv the lavv Where the scripture speaking off one thing diuersly if it speake figuratiuely in one word vseth to speake properly in an other Where both by the wordes and practise of the church in other places I shewed the place off the Actes to be vnderstanded off reading and preaching iointly the D. not answering the reason saith that the place is euidently for him which is a begging off that in question that he can reade no interpreter which enterpreteth yt otherwise no one being browght which followeth that sense that the circumstance off the place maketh for him becawse Saint Iames vseth for a reason to proue that the Iewish ceremonies could not be forthwith abolished that Moses had by reading of the law euery Sabboth so great autority which is manifestly against him for it maketh more for the confirmation of S. Iames sentence that he was both redd and preached euery sabboth then if he had bene onely redd coÌsidering that his authority was so much the deeper setled in the heartes off the Iewes Hytherto perteineth that in the end off his booke where he trifleth for that the Adm. expoundeth reading is not feading by this it is bare feading which is vnworthy answer considering it is receiued in all tounges often to deny that to be doon which is doon insufficiently as is before noted That also he saith there repeted p. 718. off dissent with my self for that saying there that bare reading withowt a miracle can not saue from famishement I say in an other place that the word off God is easy giuing vnderstanding to idiots is friuolous Considering that I spake off reading not vtterly separate from preaching Yf it be easy and gyue vnderstanding by preaching and reading togither although not so by reading onely that standeth which I haue set downe That he exclameth off that sentence as Papisticall c. I haue shewed how it is catholike and his Papisticall that maketh so easy a way to saluatioÌ withowt preaching yt is well with vs and the scriptures kepe their honour if they bring to the elect saluatioÌ vsed and applied as the order which the lord hath set requireth onles paraduenture he will say the holy SacrameÌtes leese their honour when it is saied they are not effectuall to saluacion without men be instructed by preaching before they be partakers off them Hauing shewed that bare reading off scriptures can not make vnpreaching ministers occupy any place in the church remaineth yet the reading of Homilies with the Apocrypha in which couer is sowght for theÌ against the senteÌce of condeÌnatioÌ and storme of the Lordes wrathfull iudgement which will follow if they repeÌt not speedely for where thes dry nources haue no milke of their owne the D. will haue theÌ yet giue sucke although of the becastes of others But this kinde off milke hauing taken winde shall appeare not to be so fit to nourish as that it may come into the church for a supply of sermone yt is enough if as for support off the nource sometimes other then hers be taken so to spare the pastor hardly able euery day to preach the godly Christian strenghthen him self with them at home In which treatise first cometh the D. reason Augustin and Chrysostome preached sermons in their churches therfore we may reade sermons in ours The absurditie wheroff lest it should be hidden he hath made a great deale bigger for charged with it he answereth that the committing them by writing vnto posterity argueth that they thought them very profitable vnto the church so that his argument is they are profitable therfore they may be red publikely in the church As if there were no profit reaped by reading theÌ priuatly or as if al thinges profitable for the church may be red openly in yt where are browght in to publike reading whole cartlodes off disputations of the Catholikes with Papistes ⪠Anabaptistes Arians likewise of Ecclesiasticall stories a hudge heape and other rables of heritikes and schismatikes which being profitable haue the D. ladder to clime vp into the pulpit But one thing we may note ⪠what is that that August and Chrysostom writ their sermons therfore it may be they red them sometimes in the church If yow be in earnest in earnest yow are a sleepe For so far be yow from concluding iustly that it is meet to reade them in the church that yow conclude not they were so much as red I pray yow haue any off our homilimakers red their homilies in the churches I thinck not onles it haue bene since yow wrote to make yowr argument seeme good So in thincking to make one note yow make two shamefull blots yow see not why they may not aswell now be red in the church as then preached a pitifull blindnes wheroff the remedy if yow will open yow eyes followeth Now to come to the 3. chap. Tract 21. The first and second diu be not worth the answer the third is answered except that he saith the Adm. proued not the sufficiency off the scripture by 1. Cor 1. 18. 1. Ro. 16. becawse there be manifest places for that pourpose as though it were thus to be charged if it vsed places which proue that although not the fittest Where vppon that the Lord admitteth no instrumeÌtes be they neuer so vile in the seruice of the temple nor truÌpets in assembling the people but
signification should be followed for part of the writers of canonicall bookes as of Iosue Iudges Sam. Chron. Kinges c. are vnknowen To that wherin the booke is charged for lifting vp of diuers cha of the Apocrypha to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies vvherin there are greatest assemblies some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all he answereth not a word but leaueth it to speake for it self Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach and bare reading off homilies is conuenient off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities off reading to be preaching to be as good yea better then preaching that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church owght to be throwen owt Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract off Ministers apparell wherunto albeit I was determined as may appeare to reply yet considering after that this cawse hath bene so fully debated both by bookes in print and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them considering also that the D. second answer beside false accusations as that men haue learned off me and my parteners to esteme the surplis c. corrupt in them selues c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell bare affirmacions withowt proofe as that no minister making conscience off wearing thapparell will rather weare it moued by example off other then by the law which commaundeth it almost continuall reasoning not to the matter which he cowardly dissembleth as that Prophetes which were extraordinary ministers had an extraordinary apparell which is not denied which traine taken at the beginning is followed to the end triumphes in his owne shame ââ appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all not before answered and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning but as taken vp by the highe way sideâ and considering that we haue this question with very few him the Papistes or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes onely excepted with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged were to heale the skinne and leaue the bones still broken all thes things considered with that that it may better appeare we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we coÌplaine of I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot and to saue some good howres which might be lost in vnripping this beggery That I saie off hauing this question with very few him c. excepted I meane in that where he saith the surplis square cap and tippet be most conuenient decent and comely others in whom there is any loue off the truth confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell which not able to root owt they are for certeine causes content to beare with And althowgh destitute off answer he plie his matter with accusatioÌs of disobedieÌce and conteÌpt of magistrate yet I doubt not but with all indifferent our open and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers and off the honour and humble submission to Her Maiestie and all magistrates vnderneth her ether in doing thinges commaunded or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscieÌce doo shall be sufficient defense especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell it is confessed that obedience owght to be giuen where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery As for the D. ether error or flattery that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard to the offense off the weake but that if all should be offended that is to say perish and make shipwracke off conscience for that is the offense which S. Paul and we after him speake off yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord we vtterly condemne Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent if the weake brother should be offended no autoritie ether off church or commen wealth can make yt voide And where the magistrates commaunding and owr obedience vnto him owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men our brethren especially this new carpenter as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber and not his timber according to the squire will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate the rule off the loue off God and our brethren So that in steed that he should teach that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate then the same wil agree with the glory off God and saluation off our brethren he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent we must haue no further regard nether to saluacion off our bethren nor to the glory off God which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth But I am gone further then I thowght seing there caÌ hardly be any so symple which perceiueth not easely both the fondnes and absurdity off his answers in this question The replie to the D. 8. Tract off Archbishopes and Bishopes Vnto the firste and seconde diuision being beside the question I answer nothing Before I come to the thirde forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes which is before is generall and striketh at all the loftie and swelling titles off the ministrie I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons browghte againste the names off Archbishopes c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names muste nedes comprehende thes In the D. answer therfore wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious or bountifull Lordes make nothing againste the great names and magnifical titles off the ministers this is the firste that Saint Marke and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense Wherunto I answer that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture that repetitions are not withowt some vsury and increase so in the writinges of the EuaÌgelistes yt is to be obserued almost euery where And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely S. Luke added also touching the titles Secondly he answereth this clawse yt shall not be so vvith yovv is not referred vnto those wordes are called bountifull and benefyciall but vnto ambition and tyraÌnical dominioÌ onely wherunto I answer firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers and the worde off gracious Lordes is as well affirmed off kinges as the worde off bearinge dominion therfore those wordes yt shall not be so
vvith yovv are as well referred vnto the wordes gracious lordes as vnto the word off domynion Secondly yowr answer is contrarie to the authoritie yow haue alledged owte off Caluin For if yt be true that thes wordes bountifull benefactors be all one with the wordes off Mathewe kinges exercise autoritie ouer them and yowr selfe graunte that thes wordes yt shall not be so vvith yovv are referred vnto the dominion and exercise off autoritie yt followeth that they muste needes be verified also off bountifull benefactors Thirdly he answereth that this word bountifull is off no such imperiousnes but it mighte well agree to the disciples and consequently to ministers Wherunto I answer that it is no worde off empire but annexed vnto yt and therfore that which can not agree to the ministers whom God hath shut from any suche domynion And that it is a worde off greate porte and statelines appeareth forsomuche as not onely the Egyptian kinges were so called but as the D. him selfe confesseth the Ebrewes did so call their princes Now he muste vnderstande that that Hebrew worde which he hath set downe bountifull was nether gyuen vnto the Hebrewe princes by flatterie off their subiectes nor wronge from the subiectes by tyrannous ambition off their princes but was a title gyuen vnto them by the holy ghoste Therfore it is apparante that S. Luke in those wordes ether respecting the coustome off the prophane kings or of the good princes of the Iewes in ãâã paste mente that style was proper to the cyuill magistrate and to highe for the lowe countenance off a minister Againe this title off munificence and bountifullnes as Aristotle sheweth is much more then liberall and is not said but of those which besides a great readines of mynde to gyue haue also wherwith to bestowe great gyftes and that to many So that yt is no meruaile althowghe this title be giuen off S. Luke vnto princes as they which for the moste parte are onely hable to vse the bountie answerable vnto that title Againe where he saith that thes wordes off S. Luke are to be expounded by S. Mathewe and Marke which haue for bountifull they that are greate yt is manifeste by his owne confession that this title off bountifull importeth some great pompe and owtwarde statelines And therby foloweth that S. Mathewe and Luke vsing thes three wordes princes great kinges to note one thing yt muste needes be that this worde bountifull beinge as yow saie all one with great is forthwith all one with the other two wordes princes and kinges Laste off all Caluin gyuing a reason off the signification off this worde a litle after the wordes yow haue alledged saith that theruppon yt commeth that men paye tributes and impostes that princes maie haue to mainteine the porte and magnifycence off their estate Wherby yow mighte vnderstande that this word doth drawe withall a more glyttering and glorius estate then can agrree to the simplycitie off the ministrie off the gospell Where also againste me makinge two members of the sentence off our S. Christe one towchinge the autoritie and domynioÌ of the cyuill magistrate thother towching his title aÌd name the D. owte of Caluins wordes woulde proue that they be all onethe muste vnderstand that Calu. wordes are not full enowghe to carie that meaning For when he saithe that S. Luke calleth kinges bountifull in the same sense that S. Mathevve saithe they exercise autoritie his purpose is to shewe that they perteine and are referred both to the description off his estate and to put the differeÌce betweene hym and the minister of the word For otherwise they caÌ not be saide to he all one seinge one of theÌ is verified off the other and Luke beside this title of bountifull lordes maketh mention off exercisyng autoritie and Domynion ouer them Therfore if this be an absurde saying they which exercise autoritie ouer them exercise autoritie ouer them yt is clear that Caluins meaning is not to confound one of those with an other and if yt shoulde yet the Euangelistes vvordes vvill not suffer yt Where further he saith that the name off graciouse Lorde beinge a name off svperioritie and reuerence may therfore be gyuen to ecclesiastical persons as well as vnto ciuill I can see no corde off reason which bindeth thes together For the name of Kinge Prince Duke c. names off superioritie and reuerence by his reason maie be gyueÌ to ecclesiasticall persons which him selfe denieth Therfore the D. muste seeke another distinction then this Nay let him deuide tytles off dignitie when he will making as he doth thes two off superioritie and reuerence one member whatsoeuer he maketh the other yt will fall within their compas Furthermore the names off Erles and Dukes are no more proper to cyuill magistrates in our countrie then the name off gracious lorde For as the one is a note off one lyfted vp into highe degree so thother and as the name off a lorde vvith vs is not the name off an office but off honor onelie so be the names off Dukes and Erles For men being borne dukes and Erles are not therfore borne magistrates which notwithstanding they shoulde be if the names off Dukes and Erles were proper to the ciuill magistrate In the name off Archbishop the firste parte which signifieth a prince is proper to the ciuill magistrate and can not withowt robberie be translated from him vnto Ecclesiasticall persons Which is to be shewed firste in that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles when soeuer they speake off the superioritie off the ministers off the newe Testamente doo so carefully auoide that worde with all those which fall from yt or are deriued of yt Then in that Aristor saith the vvorde domynion doth signifie an imperious rule as Beza obserueth where he sheweth that it can not agree to the ministers of the gospell Thirdly eueÌ by the D. owne confession in this place For the greke worde signifinge a prince which name he confesseth proper vnto the ciuill magistrate yt muste folowe that the name off Archbishop which is asmuche as prince off bishopes breaketh vpon the possession off the magistrate wherupon foloweth that that name is not onelie iniurious and tyrannicall in respecte off the order off ministers while it chalengeth princedome ouer them but presumptuous againste the magistrate whyleste yt pulleth that name vnto yt which is proper to him So that if it were lawfull for him to exercise any superioritie ouer his felowe mynisters yet yt owghte to be by an other title My maior which yow saie is ouerthrowne hath not so muche as felte any attempte for the ouerthowe therof were to proue that the names proper to the cyuill magistrate belong vnto one minister ouer another which is not once endeuored The minor which is that a cyuil magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall persons by lofty titles hath nothing againste yt but this that gracious lorde is commen to both ciuill
gathering and keping off his church Thes groundes laied yt is to be considered whether the exercise off the sworde by the magistrate come from our Sauiour Christe preseruer off man kinde wherin he is coequal to his father or as mediatour off his church wherin he is inferiour Where forasmuche as our Sauiour Christes kingdome was not of this world and that against horrible disorders in his church punishable by the sworde he did not one extraordinary whipping excepted draw yt and considering that this lawfull ordinance off God is not onely in the churche but withowt yt is manifest that our Sauiour Christ in respecte off his mediatourship towardes vs exerciseth not the cyuill sword For in that he said his kingdome was not off this worlde he made an opposition not vnto the wicked off the worlde as other some times but vnto Cesars autoritie which was the ordinance of God wherto he was falsly charged to haue made claime And in that he drewe not the sword againste opeÌ disorders it argueth that that was without the compas off his vocation otherwise he would neuer haue suffred the glory of God to haue bene troden vnder feet And in that the autoritie off the sword in heathen princes althowgh not a like vsed is the same ordinance off God that in Christian th one proceding off God immediatly and not from our Gauiour Christ as mediatour thother doth likewise But why should wee wrastle further in this poincte with Andrue seing the D. which buildeth of his autoritie in coÌfessing that the magistrate is ordeined off God immediatly standeth with vs that he ys not ordeined off our Sauiour Christe in respect that he is mediatour betwene God and vs heruppon followeth that the office off the cyuill magistrate is properly one off those means which serueth the Lordes prouidence in the preseruation off man kind Now yf the cyuill magistrate should be the head off the church he must be an vnder and subordinat head off Christ Consydering that the lorde hath committed the gouernement off the church vnto our Sauiour Christe and that otherwise there should be two heades off yt wheroff one were not vnder another which is absurd But he is not an vnder and subordinate head off Christe consydering that his autoritie cometh from God symply and immediatly euen as our Sauiour Christes and therfore not the head off the church To this disputation perteineth that which the D. els where in synuateth off the Magistrate comprised albeit not expressed in the 12. 1. Corinth vnder the word gouernementes but in an other treatise more plainly in the fyrst place to hale in the Archbishop in the second to thrust out the elders which notwithstanding is easely refuted by the same place for if the cyuill magistrate shoulde be compreheÌded vnder that worde off gouernement and be one off the officers off the church there mencioned yt should followe that he should be an vnder officer not onely to the Apostles but also to Prophetes and Doctors For S. Paule putteth thes as the principallest mynisteries in the church as the degres off first second and third declare But I thincke the D. will not make him vnder officer to all thes therfore he is not coÌprehended vnder that diuision but is of an other sorte off officers Secondly yt should follow that Christian magistrates were in that tyme yt being graunted that the offices there reckned were already in the church But the D. saith that there were then no Christian magistrates yt foloweth therfore by his owne wordes that the magistrate could nether be expressed nor conteined in those wordes yf yt be said that althowgh the D. say there were none yet I and the trwth yt selfe saie otherwise I answer that all the gyftes and offices there reckned were not onely then but were then most plentifull Considering therfore that the Christian magistrate was then a gifte more rare then at other times after yt can not be that he is comprehended vnder that wordes Vppon all which yt falleth that the Magistrate is head off the church as Andreas saith in respect off that he exerciseth the sword Likewise it goeth to ground which the D. putteth that by the same reason the magistrate is head off the commeÌ wealth next vnder God he may be also head off the church Which is a grosse peticion of the principle being nothing but the contrarie off that I set downe That owte off Chrysostome that certeine weomen were head off the churche off Philippos will not serue considering that he speaketh not off any cheifdome in powre or autoritie but off excellencie in godlines and zeale And the greek word he vseth signifying also a summe nedeth not to be taken in signification off head but that Chrysost meaninge was that in those weomeÌ there was as it were a summe off the church in whose godly vertues a man might beholde the estate off the whole Nay yt can not but with great violence there signifie a head for then he should haue said they were heades of the church and not head And if it shoulde yet yt muste be vnderstanded that head there is to say the cheife off the weomen off that church which is nothing to purpose for I am sure yt was not Chrysost minde to preferre them to the Bishopes c. The cauill also that the magistrate being but a member off the church is not therby barred from being head is vnworthy answer seing yt is manifest off what members I spake and the Bishop off Salsbury speaketh euen in the same wordes Yf yt be said that the magistrates honour ys touched here I answer that then the Angels them selues are dishonoured which hauing gouernement of kingdomes and nations add also of the churches which they serue haue not nor owght as I haue shewed to haue the title off head off the churche Nay those which goe abowte to gratifie Princes with the spoile off our Sauiour Christe are found dishonorers of them as those which leaue theÌ no place in the church of Christe for if the magistrate be head of the church of Christe which is within his domynioÌ theÌ he is none of yt For all that church maketh the bodie of Christe and euery one of the church fulfilleth the place of one member of the body So that he that is not of the body can haue no place in the church yf yt be further said that he hath iniury considering that he bringeth such singular comforte and profit vnto the church establishing the purenes off religion ouerthrowing the corruptions repressing sinne crowning vertue beside the weight of glory which attendeth for good Princes in the life to come and that they are honoured with most honorable names which owght more then contente the moste excellent seruantes off God which are but symple creatures yt muste be also considered that as the godly magistrate being head of the common wealth bringeth singular commoditie vnto the church so doo the godly pastors which be the church
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌmen wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌtinued and if the coÌtinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌdome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌt yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌgelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌpelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ For wheÌ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌsidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
Bucer followed an other interpretacioÌ theÌ wee yet yt shall appeare he meÌt nothing lesse theÌ therby to approue any of this stately Lordlines vsed of our bishops and that he is in this cawse ours As for his interpretacioÌ for my part although I coÌfesse that Princes in prouiding for the peoples vnder them doo after a sort serue them yet I deny that our S. Christ ment to note here Princes duties in their gouernment And fyrst the circumstance of the place doth confute yt For when as the disciples gaping after worldly rule depended of the opinioÌ conceiued that our S. Christ should be a great king vpon earth it is apparant that his answer that he came to be a minister and to serue was to ouerthrow that phantasye of theirs as if he should say yow looke to be Lordes vnder me and I my self came not to be a lord or Prince wherfore yowr desyre of rule vnder me is in vaine And if this be the naturall sense of those wordes then yt is manifest that this word of ministring being opposed vnto the state of a Prince this sentence can by no meanes agree vnto ciuill magistrates Further when he calleth his disciples to the imitacion of his seruice and ministry him self being a minister of the gospelly it is cleare that he speaketh of such a ministery as can not agree vnto the ciuill magistrate This may yet better appeare by the adiointes or cleauinges knit vnto the mynistery which being suche as can not agree to the cyuill Magistrate it followeth that thes wordes can not be vnderstanded off both gouernementes For our S. Christ in his mynistry did not onely serue vnto others but was as a seruaÌt aÌd did not onely minister but was as a minister that is to say caried the face and countenaÌce of a seruaÌt in apparell in diet in obedieÌce vnto the cyuill Magistrate Wherunto the Apostle hath regard when he saith that our Sauiour tooke the shape and forme off a seruant But Princes althowgh they serue the profite off their peoples yet they nether carye nether is it meet they should carie the forme and shape off seruantes ether in apparell or diet or any part off cyuill behauiour ⪠but contrariwise it standeth with the ordinance off God that they should haue some owtward marke off excellency aboue the rest Moreouer in that our Sauiour Christ declareth that the cheiftye of the disciples shall neuer be so great in the churche but that the highest shall be seruant vnto the rest it muste needes be that he meaneth an other kinde off seruice then can agree vnto the cyuill Magistrate For although he be called a minister and publicke officer of God for the profit of the people aÌd it be saied that Dauid did minister vnto the age vvherin he liued yet that the holy gost doth euer call them seruantes off their people as he saith here his disciples shall be it can not be shewed for this word seruant which our Sauiour Christ attributeth vnto his disciples and S. Paul vsed in saying that he was the Corinthians seruant signifieth a lower and more humble kinde off seruice then the other and is neuer attributed as I thinke vnto the ciuill Magistrate in respect off his subiectes but onely in respect off his subiection vnto the lord Wherupon followeth that forsomuch as our Sauiour Christ speaketh here of a more humble seruice then can fall into the Maiestie of the cyuill Magistrate towardes his people this place can not be vnderstanded off the cyuill gouernement That in the end hath also force that wheras the Euangelistes speaking off principalitie and greatnes which the Magistrate hath ouer his subiectes vse with full consent the word Prince when they come to describe the superioritie and greatnes which our Saui. Christ will haue in his mynisters they also with full consent absteine from it being proper as I haue shewed to the Magistrate and set in place theroff a leader a word off lesse autoritie and by thapostle ascribed vnto mynisters Where yf he had ment in that later part to haue described the duty off the cyuill magistrate he would by all likelihood haue kept the same word saying whosoeuer amongest yow shal be Prince shall be as yowr seruant Therfore yt is euident that our Sauiour ment this sentence off the ministry off the word and not of Magistrates I know well yow say this place is fitly alledged against the Pope and that in wordes yow thrust him far away whom in deed yow cawse to approch But forasmuch as yowr wordes seruing against the Pope yowr reasons are for him and that his person being changed his cawse is still defended it behoued me to looke not so much at yowr defiance in wordes as at that maintenance which the course off yowr disputation bringeth vnto him And let it be now considered whether yowr toung being with the Bishop yowr hand be not with Harding He to proue that the Pope may exercise both ciuill and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction bringeth forth the exaÌple of Moses both priest and Prince The Bishop to confute that alledgeth this text off S. Mathew which if it put not a differeÌce betwene the office of a Prince and off a minister as yow say it doth not then hath the Bishop answered nothing For the question is not there whether the Pope may tyranÌously or ambitiously ether seeke after or exercise cyuill iurisdictioÌ but whether he may exercise any at all Nether is the question whether the Pope may exercise that autoritie as a thing belonging vnto him self or of the graunt off Princes For then his rule should be auouched good in some times when the Emperours haue willingly submitted them selues with their scepters vnto the pleasure off Popes As for his reigning in mennes consciences it peteineth not to this place So that if the D. answer be good then this place which the Bishop alledgeth maketh nothing against the Popes ciuill sword prouided that he seeke it not and that he haue it of the kinges graunt Which how contrary it is to the Bishops meaning may easely appeare by that which followeth Yf therfore he agree with the bishop as he saith he muste allow off thes wordes off Cyprian Christ by seuerall dutyes and distinct honours hath here set a difference betvvene both the povvers And then doth Bucers autoritie faile him who thincketh that those offices are not distinguished in those vvordes it shall not be so vvith yovv and then also is he goen from his strongest hold that our Sauiour Christ did onely discerne betwene the affections when as it is saied that he discerned betvvene the offices Moreouer then must he allow off Bernardes saying yt ys plaine that temporall domynion is forbidden the Apostles novv therfore thovv being Pope hovv darest thovv vsurp ether the Apostleship being a prince or the Princehood being successour off the Apostle doubtles from the one off them thovv art forbidden c. And if he allow
grammers head seing Aristotle teacheth that the numbre of three is the least numbre that this vvord all can be verifyed off Where yow saied Christ did not say no man shall be great amongest theÌ my answer was that he had saied that before and needed not to repete it wherunto yow answer nothing The place I alledged owt of S. Luke ouerthroweth yowr answer For if by thes wordes vvhosoeuer vvill be great desire off dominion had bene onely found fault with then he would not haue spokeÌ simply vvhosoeuer amongest yovv withowt adding any thing off ambitioÌ or desire to rule and to this yow answer nothing but couer yowr self onely with Musc autoritie For where yow say yow spake as the wordes be ⪠yow vnderstand well that they doo not specifie any ambitioÌ which yow must needes meane or els yow mainteine not yowr answer Where yow say S. Lukes wordes make against me as which insinuate that there must be some great amongest them yow take it otherwise then it is For if yow will not admit the interpretacion I alledged in referring this greatnes vnto excellency of gyftes one aboue an other nor Cal. interpretation sauoreth not in yowr tast that it is as much as if our Sauiour should say yovvr greatnes excellency and dignitie shal be in submitting yovvr selues vnto yovv brethren yet yow vvill not refuse Bucer vvhom yow here build vpon vvhich by great in this place vnderstandeth him that is elder in age and proueth it by the word younger opposed to him And it is not vnlike but one of those reasons wherby some off those disciples would haue grounded their principalitie ouer other their fellowes vvas for that they vvere auncienter in yeares Which soeuer of thes expositions yow admit yow see that to be great here signifieth nothing les then any dominion off one minister ouer another First the Ans saith that I goe about to proue that our Sauiour Christ doth not reproue thambition off his disciples vvhich is a manifest vntruth For I say that he doth reproue it and gyue also larger place to the reproofe off their ambition then he for vvhere he would haue it to consist onely in that they ambitiously desired to rule ouer their fellowes I affirme that he did not onely take them vp for that but also that they desired to rule one ouer an other which was not lawfull Secondly he saith I haue falsified his wordes in that I father off him that our Sauiour reprehended onely thambition of his disciples vvhich I doo not for my vvordes ascribe vnto him that he saied they vvere reproued not onely for desire off rule but for rule to oppresse Then to maintein this quarrell he affirmeth he saied our Sauiour reproueth the tirannicall rule off kinges off the Gentills as thowgh that made any thing to proue that he did in his disciples onely reproue ambition For reproofe of oppression in kinges vvas not part off reprehension off the disciples Moreouer he coulde not be ignorant by the course off disputation that vvhen I saied yf ambition onely vvere reprehended in the disciples I ment that if our S. Christ had forbidden his disciples ambitious desyre off rule one ouer an other and not rule it self which doth manifestly towch the cawse Thus partly with a manifest vntruth partly with a trifling cauil which if it were true maketh nether whoat nor kold it seemeth he would haue cast a mist before his readers eies that he should not see him giue the slip from my first argument in this diuis For vnto this reason that in that sense off the place vvhich he setteth dovvne the ansvver off our Sauiour Christ shoulde not haue benefit considering the Disciples might haue replied that he forbad tyrannicall rule of their inferiours but they desyred moderate and vvell ruled gouernement he answereth not a word To his answer vnto the second reason that they are called bountifull which haue no sparck of bountifulnes I replie that althowgh that may sometimes come to passe yet it shoulde haue bene owt of time to haue made mention of it here in that sense For if as yow say our Sauiour speake here against the tirannie and ambition of Princes then it was owt off place to make mention off the flatterie off their subiectes which call them by the title off bountifull For that is rather the fault off the subiectes then off the Princes If yow say that they desire that title first the wordes off S. Luke doo not beare it owt for he saith they are called gratious Lordes and not they desire to be so called Then it being a thing not simply vnlawfull for a Prince to desire to be called and counted bountifull to this end that by that fame men might be more seruiceable althowgh it should be graunted to yow that S. Luke ment that they desire that title yet forasmuch as there is no staine off ambition or tirannie in that desire yow are still behinde with yowr answer For yowr example off the Pope called most holiest c. yt is nothing like For men deceiued by error call hym so and althowgh they say vntruly yet they speake as they thinck which can not be in this case considering that no man can be abused by a false opinion off his bountifulnes which not onely giueth not but is an oppressor And although as there are found which knowing the wickednes off the Pope call him notwithstanding most holy so there be vvhich knowing the illiberalitie off their Princes call them notwithstanding bountifull yet yow should haue considered that S. Luke speaketh not here how Princes are called off certein particular persons but by what titles they are called generally of all their subiectes So that if yow would haue spokê to pourpose yow should haue shewed that it is a coÌmen thing for tyrantes to be called generally of their subiectes whom they pill bountifull and that vvhich is harder for yow to doo that men will call ministers bountifull which giue nothing Otherwise the interpretation vvhich yow imagine hath no place To my third reason that it is not to be thovvght off all the Apostles that they desyred rule one ouer another to the end they might vse crueltie and oppression ouer their fellovves he answereth not a vvord It may be as I haue shewed gathered off the scripture which is not expressed in it els how take yow vpon yow to set downe that the 10. were as ambitious in disdayning as the 2. were in desiring seing that is not expressed If I be deceiued in thincking that those greek wordes be all one I am deceiued with the Grecians for so I haue red And if yowr autoritie were any in this case yet it is suspected and therfore needed better proof then yowr bare vvord and albeit it vvere true that the one hath sometime a more larger vse then the other yet hereit appeareth that the indignation off these Apostles vvas such as Aristotle defineth thother vvord by that is
conceiued off an opinion they had that those tvvo vvere not vvorthy to rule ouer them The vvordes off our Sauiour Christ in the 20. of S. Math. c. are spoken vnto the 12. onely vvhom he had set apart for the ministerie off the gospell but his vvordes S. Math. 23. are spoken not onely vnto them but vnto the commen people Wheruppon it followeth that our Sauiour ioining the people vvith his disciples in the dehortations vvhich he maketh here could not as in the other place vvhere he speaketh vnto them alone speake off the proper listes and boundes of the ministerie and therfore there is no cause vvhy M. shoulde be glad that I agree with hym in the exposition off Math. 23. Further Math. 20. making comparison betwene the 12. disciples and Princes here so far as towcheth the disciples he maketh comparison betwene them and other ecclesiasticall ministers There being therfore thinges in the state off a commendable Prince vvhich agree not vnto the ministery of the gospell it followeth that he may be well thowght there not onely to haue forbidden the disciples ambition damnable in bothe estates but also those thinges which being commendable in Princes agree not vnto them Off the other side all thinges coÌmendable in the Pharises ministrie Ecclesiasticall agreing likewise to theirs it followeth of necessitie that there he must needes speake against ambition onely Vnto the next diuis being reproches I answer not onely vvhere he chargeth me vvith falsehood becawse I affirme he saith the booke off commen praier is a perfect rule to gouerne the churche off England by where nothing is wanting or to much I answer that there be not the same wordes but when there is nothing he will acknowledge to be off the order of the booke which he mainteineth not and refuseth to haue added thinges vvhich haue their ground off the word I leaue to the reader to iudge whether although my wordes are vvith the fullest yet I am far from his meaning Now I returne againe to his 8 Tract The Ans skoffing vppon my vnskilfulnes in logicke saith he can finde nether head nor foot in my reason Thus I will finde both They which deny the lawfulnes of Iohns ministrie because there was no suche ministerie conteined in the scriptures thowght no ministerie lawfull not conteined in them but the Scribes and Leuites did so therfore they esteemed no ministerie lawfull not conteined in scripture Against this he taketh exception first to the translation which is altogether friuolus for beside that both the wordes may beare that signikication and it is not vnlike but by the article the Euangelist ment not some one singular Prophet spoken of in the law beside the Messias but rather any Prophet extraordinary to vvhom the Lord shewed him self ether by vision or dreame the interpretation vvhich he citeth owt of Beza altereth not the argument but rather strenghtheneth it noting therby that it vvas necessary not onely to haue the function off a Prophet but off one which vvas especially noted and marked owt by the scripture SecoÌdly where he saith that if they had asked Iohn whether he had bene a Prophet he would not haue denied it and addeth for proofe theroff our Sauiour Christ saied he was one he is abused for our Sauiour saying that he vvas greater then a prophet and that the Prophetes endured vntill Iohns comming denieth that he vvas a Prophet and maketh his ministerie a meane function betwene the function of a Prophet and ministerie off the gospell more excellent then the first and inferior to the other If he vvould haue had a coulor off his defense he should rather haue cited his fathers saying of him which calleth him the Prophet of the highest but that could not haue serued the turne nether For that the vvorde is there taken generally for those which teach the will off God which is often as hath bene shewed Yowr third exception that all the functions are not reckened vpp becawse they aske him not whether he was a Priest or Leuite is as vaine as the rest for therfore they aske him not becawse he tawght not being consecrated vnto any of them according to the ecclesiasticall order prouided in that behalf and that vvas one occasion off this embassadge vnto Iohn Last off all where in the margent he saith that the Pharises made false argumentes and that I doo the same he speaketh vnaduisedly for howsoeuer there was otherwise great ignorance in them yet that their reason vvas good herin it appeareth by that S. Iohn to proue his ministerie lawfull browght testimonie theroff owt off the scripture and for that our Sauiour Christ meaning to confirme the ministerie off Iohn asketh whether it were from heauen or off men In vvhich wordes condemning all ministeries vvhich men institute and that come not from heauen he confirmeth the Parises argument vvhich vvas that Iohn exercising a mynisterie not ordeined by the law should haue bene gilty of breach of the law if he could not haue shewed some extraordinarie vocatioÌ Thus appeareth that there vvas both bead and foot in this argumeÌt and that by all likelyhood true vvhich he could not impugne but by vntruth The 8. and 9. diuis vvhich follow haue as commonly the rest nothing but bare sayinges which becawse I shall meet withall againe I vvill heere passe ouer ⪠onely in the eight yt ys to be noted that he saith it is seruile to tie the church off Christ to the patrone off the Iewes Synagoge Wherin ether he saith nothing or he would haue vnderstanded more then he dare veter For if he meane that the church of Christ may not be in all ordinances and ceremonies coÌformable to that off the Iewes it maketh nothing to the pourpose but if he meane that the church hath now more libertie in adding ministeries then the Iewes had as his answer to that I set downe doth require then I see no cawse vvhy he should not haue so saied But that although he would say yet he durst not and therfore spaââ thus vncertenly that vvheÌ I should shew the coÌtrary he in this generall speach might haue some corner to hide him in Seing I must needes proue that the crow is blacke that is to say tharchbishoprick a new ministerie thus yt is proued That which hath diuers efficient cawses is an other and diuers but there are diuers efficient cawses off the ministerie off tharchbishop and those expressed in the word off god That there are diuers efficient cawses is manifest for that the office off Bishop Elder and Deacon being by God him self the office off tharchbishop was deuised and browght in by man And although this be proof enough to them that haue their senses exercised in the holy scripture where in the ministerie oftentimes they are called straungers which haue not their offices limited by the prescript off Gods word yet that it may appeare how litle modestie there is in this strong deniall
Therfore this difference betwene the Archbishop and Pope being accidentall and not towching the nature off the gouernement wheroff we haue to enquire is vnstilfully alledged Yet it is the hole wheruÌto the Ans is coÌpelled diuers times to haue his recourse That the ministerie is a matter of saluacioÌ that tharchbishop is a new ministerie that it is absurd here to flie to thexample off the Magistrate where the questioÌ is what Ecclesiasticall offices are profitable is before declared The Ans conclusion off my replie touching the place to the Ephes is euill shut vp For where he saith that tharchbishoprick may stand becawse that place reckening vp onely the ministeries of the word that is a ministerie off order and policie how could he forget that tharchbishop medleth with the ministerie of the word and therfore it was necessarie to be here mentioned if the Apostle had gyuen hym any place in the church If he will say that he hath not onely the mynisterie off the word but off order also the answer is at hand that so had both the Apostles by his owne confession and all the rest off those ministeries as appeareth afterward Whether therfore tharchbishop be considered in his ministerie of the word or as together with that he holdeth the raignes off gouernement or as one of the most principall ministeries of the church ether he hath his place here to the Ephes or not aâ all For both all ministeries off the word to speak as the D. separate from gouernement and order and all occupied in the word and gouernement ioyntly and all principall ministeries of off the church are here reckened vp Euery one then off thes three cawses being sufficient to haue made mention of tharchbishop all together put a necessitie vpon the Apostle to speake off him if he had bene worth the speaking off Where he thincketh there was no cause to speake off him for that he differeth not from a bishop in ministerie off the word but in order and gouernement onely and that therfore yt is no diuers ministerie from the bishops office by the same reason I may say that S. Paul needed not to haue mentioned Pastors c. For the Pastors preached the word as the Apostles But yf this one difference alhough there were no moe make the ministerie of Apostles and pastors diuers that th one hath charge off one onely church thother off aâryâ must follow that the ministerie off an archbishop is diuers from the bishops th one watching ouer a whole prouince thother ouer a diocese onely Yea it is plaine off that spoken before off the Archbishops new ministerie that there are as many or moe thinges wherby he differeth from a bishop then any of thes ministeries S. Paul reckeneth vp differ one from an other His answer to the place off the Corinth consisteth in that he would proue that the diuision off offices there is perfect Wherin it it easie to see what extremitie my reply which he calleth a vaine shift draue him vnto and how he could not couer his nakednes here but with discouering an other place as vnsemely as this For amongest his answers to the place off the Ephes wherby he would proue that that diuision is not perfect this was one in the latin pamphlet that to the Corinth S. Paul speaketh off Apostles Prophetes and Doctors leauing owt Euangelistes and Pastors and now to auoide my replie to that answer he saith cleane contrarie that the Apostle made there a perfect diuisioÌ of offices But let vs see whether this chauÌge be for the better Where he saith Saint Paul did more perfectly deuide to the Corinth then to the Ephes he is deceiued For euen by his owne confession he speaking there of preaching offices onely not off all offices off the church and there being none other preaching offices but those which he reckeneth vp yt followeth that he made there a perfect diuision In the place to the Corinth that there is no perfect diuision although the D. wordes he chaunged yet his reason he vsed standeth still that the Euangelist is not there mentioned nor Pastor which were offices in the church Beside that he kepeth in this refutatioÌ his ould wont which is to cut the knot and not to lose yt For he bringeth reasons of his to proue the perfectioÌ of the diuision withowt answering mine And yet his be such as are vnwothy answer For in the first beside that yt is vntrue that the Apostle made a perfect diuision of giftes in the church if he had yet it followeth not that he made the same in offices especially wheÌ he wil needs separate offices from giftes The second reason therfore yt is a perfect diuision because there is added first second third is as simple as the first for those wordes are not put there to note the noÌbre of offices but to declare which is highest in degree and which next c. aÌd if they did yet I neuer could yet read that they were notes off a perfect diuision His third because yt hath moe members then that in the Ephesâ I think he vnderstandeth by this tyme what strenght yt hath if he remember that which I answered that the Apostles meaning to the Eph. was not to deuide the offices of the church in generall but those onely which handle the word onles par aduenture he thinck that he maketh a fuller partition which deuideth both the handes into eight fingers then which denideth one into fiue Martyrs autoritie doth not help him For he saith not that he reckeneth all the partes of the church particularly or how many it hath which he should haue saide to help him but onely that he reckeneth vp what members the church hath which he doth that reherseth some Whether a bishop be conteined vnder a Pastor or rather a Pastor vnder a bishop shall not now be the question But yow are inconstant in all yowr waies and haue one senteÌce standing an other sitting For albeit I should agree with yow that a bishop is a Pastor yet yow doo not agree with yowr self For otherwere in stretching owt the Bishops armes yow haue thes wordes a bishop is both superior in office and giftes vnto a Pastor If he be so he can not be conteined vnder him for that vvhich conteineth an other thing hath at the least all in it self which the conteined hath Againe if I graunt a bishop conteined vnder the Pastor S. Paul speaketh of yet I will not graunt that the bishop yow meane which hauing so many churches to rule hath neuer a one where he doth the office off a bishop is conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor For seing his foundacion is laied in Ieromes bishop proued before and after not to be of the institutioÌ of God but off man yt can not be that our kinde of bishop shoulde be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor Wheruppon also followeth that tharchbishop which hath a necessarie relation to that kinde off bishop and can not
or not at the churches vvill Moreouer if he say that it is necessarie aÌd commaunded aâ some tyme and not at others vvhat a miserable case is the churche in that hath no certein addresse owt of the word vvhen that necessitie and commaundement beginneth and when it endeth vvhen this office is in season vvhen owt of season Lastly forasmuch as S. Paul speaketh of offices theÌ in the chuch not of those vvhich came after as the Ans him self is forced to confesse the Archbishops office must needes haue bene in the Apostles tyme Which if it be true those times being as the Answ hath borne vs in hand so vnlike ours the persons in the church then off so different dispositions from those now the place also the gospell being theÌ in the East partes where now it is in the West it must needes follow that this monely office off the archbishop which ebbeth and floweth being fit for the Apostles times is by all likelihood vnfit for ours His distinction vnto the second proposition is that an Archbishop in respect off the ministerie off the word and SacrameÌtes is necessarie alwaies but not in respect of policie and gouernemeÌt Which is asmuch to say as an archbishop vvhen he is an archbishop is alwaies necessarie for the church For when he hath not the owtward gouernement then by yowr owne rule he is no archbishop then which speach what can be more absurd And of this answer followeth that there is a time vvhen the Pastors haue nothing to doo vvith the externall policie and gouernment off the church but onely to administer the word and Sacramentes and then the church shal be an heape and not a bodie a confused multitude not an orderly societie Yet in the next section he gyueth the gouernement off the church and order vnto the bishops and archbishops and will haue them part the stake off the Apostles autoritie vvhich they had in the church And as this answer is absurd so yt ys contrarie to that he hath set downe in his former booke that not onely the office off the Archbishop is necessarie but most necessarie I saied before that the Apostle speaketh to the Ephes off mynisteries vvhich haue to doo vvith preaching the vvord but neuer added as yow in yowr Doctors booke and here and not those which haue to doo with order and discipline Therfore I had nothing forgotten my self if be would haue vnderstanded that which is plaine to all the world for thes two may well stand together the Apostle spake there onely off functions conuersant in the vvord and the Lord spake of those functioÌs vvhich Preach the vvord and administer the gouernement for the word onely doth not seclude gouernemeÌt from those ministries but shutreth owt all ministeries not preaching as that off the Elder and Deacon And yt is one thing to say the Lord spake there onely off preaching mynisteries an other to say he spake there of ministries onely preaching which me thincketh yow could not be ignoraÌt of Therfore Saint Paul reckening vp the ministeries there which haue together with the preaching of the word the administration off gouernement and making no mention off the Archbishop supposed to haue both yt followeth that yow are yet behinde with yowr answer I haue not confuted my shadow but yowr fond phantasie For if S. Paul speake in that place of those that haue the ministerie off the word and Sacramentes onely and not off those which haue to doo with the order of discipline yt followeth that Apostles haue nothing to doo with order and discipline forsomuch as they are amongest those which S. Paul there speaketh of If this cogitacion neuer entred into yowr head how cometh it to passe that yt ys found in yowr papers Lastly yow say the administration off discipline and gouernement in the Apostles is fallen vpon the Archbishops and bishops the ouerthrow off my whole assertion Yf a man will belieue yow speaking he may otherwise here is nothing but I saied yt And surely yt must be a very simple hould that is cast downe with this paper shot of bare affirmatioÌ but if yow will weigh a litle what yow say yow shall see that if there be any bullet at al in this yowr saying yt is charged wholy vppon yowr self For before yow haue saied once or twise that the office and autoritie off an Archbishop was in the Apostles tymes Which if yt be true how doth the Archbishop receiue his auauritie off order and gouernement by their death for hauing yt before he cannot receiue yt by their departure Ether therfore this is vntrue that the archbishop exerciseth the same autoritie which the Apostles or that which yow saied before that the office off the Archbishop was in the Apostles time or els this third is true that he hauing in the Apostles time autoritie which he hath now by their death obteined beside their former autoritie that which the Apostle had also Which how neere it pricketh at the papacye I leaue to euery one to consider But yf the Archbishop will succede vnto the administration off order and gouernement off the Apostels why sheweth he not his euidence why bringeth he not forth his recordes of bequest off resignation that it may appeare he is not entred as a trespasser In that sense which I haue shewed in an other place I graunt it true which Ierome saith that all bishops succede vnto the Apostles but shew me who speaketh any thing off the succession off the archbishop vnto them Nay verily that is flat against the archbishops autoritie For if euery bishop haue that autoritie in his church which the Apostles had in all the world it followeth that there nether needeth nether can be any archbishop to receiue any theroff And that if any archbishop chalenge a greater autoritie then is in any one bishop he pulleth to him self greater autoritie in his prouince then euer the Apostles had in the world And by the same reason that they be Lordes and superiours ouer bishops they must be lordes and superiours in their prouince ouer the Apostles them selues if they were aliue Considering they rule ouer those which in their dioceses haue the same autoritie that the Apostles had This I speake not that I thinck the Bishops had not this autoritie from the very birth and foundacion off the function as towching the gouernement off their churches or that there came any autoritie vnto them by the Apostles death which they had not in their tymes but that yt may be vnderstanded that if there were any such succession vnto the Apostles gouernement as the D. phansieth the bishops are the right beyres and that not certein other some shut forth but euery one as Ierome saith Although if tharchbishop should haue an Apostolicall autoritie in gouerning his prouince it hath appeared and more shall God willing that the Apostles gouernement was far from that principalitie and rule one ouer an other which tharchbishops chaleÌge ouer
their vnder bishops The next diuision I will not answer The next vnto that I report me to the reader whether I haue faithfully and allmost seruilely bound my self vnto his wordes in translating thes peeces of his latin paÌphlet For the next also I hauing shewed that yow placing the Apostles function in preaching and ministring the Sacramentes not in gouernement and assigning to tharchbishop both AdministratioÌ off the word and Sacramentes and order and discipline must needes lay greater weight vpon tharchbishop then vpon the Apostles yf yow now reuoke yt I am glad Howbeit ashamed to speake it in so many wordes euen yet the course off this treatise doth breath nothing els This is no answer vnto my reason For if the church withowt the Archbishop and Archdeacon be a bodie consisting of all the partes comely knit together wherin nothing wanteth nor nothing is to much then it followeth that thes offices bring nether ornement nor accomplishement to the church but make onely an vnprofitable knob and lump off flesh to the both disfuguring and hinderance off the growght off the bodie And the ministrie off order and policie of the church being one part off this bodie if it be not whole and complete but need to be peeced owt with archbishops and Archdeacons it must draw with it this absurditie that there being one member vnperfect withowt them the bodie also off Christ is not perfecte And where it ys saied that as in the Apostles times the church was not perfect withowt them and Prophetes c. so it is not now meaning therby as both before and after hath appeared that tharchbishops should supplie the roume off the Apostles I answer that the Argument holdeth not For considering that the perfection off the bodie must be measured by the will off him whose the bodie is that is Christ as when he gaue Apostles Euangelistes c. he made it appeare that he would not haue his bodie perfect withowt them so when he tooke them away from his church he made it knowen that the bodie was perfect withowt theÌ Yf Apostles and Euangelistes had bene put downe by autoritie of man then yt might haue helped yow that as men put downe Mynisteries so they might supplie them with other But seing they were taken away by the Lord this yowr reason in effect becawse God taketh away therfore men may administeries hath no strenght in it And where all this drift is that yow vvould haue tharchbishops office come in for the Apostles and therfore say that their autoritie ouer the pastors doth and must remaine in such places as there be churches besides my former answer vnto this point yow are againe taken in the wordes off yowr owne lippes For if it must remaine then the office off the archbishop which yow make the vessell to receiue this autoritie in and whose office yow say consisteth in the rule off other pastors is not variable and depending off circuÌstance off time c. but perpetuall and constant Yf Bucer speake as yow make him I can by no meanes subscribe vnto him For S. Luke saith plainly that there were many bishops at Ephesus and gyueth the name off bishop to many That the name off bishop did properly remaine in one off them aÌd improperly in thother if it haue so good autoritie as the former I will belieue that too if not I hould me vnto the wordes off S. Luke And if the name off bishop doth vnproperly belong vnto those whom Saint Paul saith the holy gost had appointed bishops ouer the church I confesse that I can not tell what autoritie is sufficient to make that name off bishop proper vnto them And if the name off bishop did not properly belong vnto them all but vnto one onely yt followeth that the name also of an Elder did not properly belong vnto them For the one of them ys as well verified of them as the other and there is no more restreint off the name off bishop then of an Elder vnto any one singular person amongest them And how is this sentence off Bucer here pulled in by the heare for albeit it were concluded that one bishop should beare dominioÌ ouer the ministers of one churche yet yt followeth not which is here in question that one also owght to rule ouer all bishops in a prouince The rest is answered In deed I denie but yow affirme that there be still Apostles Prophetes c. aÌd therfore by yowr saying that order which was then owght now also to be continued And although yowr archbishop vvere vnder gownde yet order in ecclesiasticall mynistries remaineth that the teaching Elders should be a degree aboue those vvhich gouerne onely and they aboue the Deacons The marck I shoot at is certein that is to confute yowr distinction off mynisteries off the word and Sacramentes onely and ministeries off gouernement and order and it seemeth I shot so nigh that I haue driuen yow away from the marck For yow wander and tell vs of thinges that haue nether head nor foot and which if they were true make nether whot nor kold vnto this question For if your learned interpreters haue well defined S. Paules rule the Elders vvhich rule are vvorthy c. when they say yt is to serue Christ and his church faithfully in doctrine and integritie off life c then it must suffice yowr Archbishop to doo so and no more For if yow thinck that euery minister in his church is barred by that definition from further gouernement then which consisteth in preaching administring the Sacramentes vncorrupt life c it followeth that he medling with moe then those breaketh the boundes off good gouernement After yow make an other rode owt off the question bearing the reader in hand that I would conclude owt off that place equalitie off ministers when as my pourpose was as I haue shewed to confute yowr vaine distinction Which although yow here denie yet the print off yowr hand is deeper then yow can wipe owt by thes so strong but litle honest denials For onles yow refer this word onely to the secluding off the ministeries mentioned to the Ephesians from the gouernement and policie off the church yowr answer falleth as is before declared Considering that yow labouring to make a difference betwene those mynisteries and the Archbishops make none if they together with administratioÌ off the word and Sacramentes handle also order and gouernment And although yow had quite left owt the word onely yet thes wordes the Apostle doth recite those ministeries which are occupied in praier the word and Sacramentes not off them which are instituted for order and discipline haue that sense which I haue gyuen them For if he speake off those which minister the word and Sacramentes not off those instituted for gouernement c. yt followeth that he speaketh off those which minister the word and Sacramentes onely As he that saith a man is iustified by faith and not by worckes saith
an archbishop is a newe ministrie is declared Where he saith if no man appoint new offices but he which can gyue giftes to discharge them it should follow that no man might appoint offices if he vnderstand as he owght to doo ecclesiasticall offices it is that I mainteine if he leap ouer here as his coustome is to ciuill I haue shewed that the reason is not like Half this diuis is in the tenth off this chap. where yt hath answer My argument here a man may not ad to the ministeries because he may not take avvay is fyrst off thinges apparantly like as those vvhich are likewise forbidden likewise punished Then it hath this grownd that they being contrary fall into one subiect except one be naturally in it as heat in fire Which I am constreined to speake of because I haue to doo with such a trifler as would snatch at this exception although nothing to prurpose So that as he that hath autoritie to make lawes hath also to abrogate he which may absolue may condemne he that may binde may loose so he that hath power to ad hath also to deminish But marck vvhat the D. answereth The question is vvhether men may ad to the ministeries the meane and argument wherby I proue they can not because it is not lavvfull to deminish now when he answereth that men may ad doth he not gyue that for answer which is the question and take that for his proofe which is to be proued And as for that which followeth the added ministeries may be helpes to ministeries instituted off God yt is likewise in controuersie being as doubtfull as the rest And the Papistes may as well answer thus for the multiplying off their Sacramentes as the D. for encrease off the ministries But forsomuch as thes are yowr commen answers here is nothing new or to be wondred at Vnto the second proposition he saith men may take away offices off God which are temporall that is enduring for a time but not perpetuall Wherin he is greatly abused For nether any man nor all men in the world could haue put downe the temporall ministeries off Apostles Euangelistes c. which the Lord ordeined onles the Lord him self had withdrawen them and therfore they so long remained in the church vntill he by their death withowt raysing vp any seede vnto them by distribution of those giftes wherby those ministeries might be furnished declared that they had an end The Ans in defense of this forged Doctors is like vnto one which to defend him from the kolde couereth him self with a wet sacke For before his ignorance might haue in part excused him now by this maintenance off his answer he hath doubled his folie For first to make him self cleane he defileth as much as he can Maister Caluin and the Bishop off Salisburie both which he nether sheweth to haue vsed this Clement and if they doo yet their vse of him or such like is so farfroÌ lessening his fault that is maketh it more appeare For they vse them agaynst the Papistes which for the moste part attributing vnto them as great weight of autoritie as to the scriptures themselues are so set vp Which they doo also therby to driue from them that if they can not be browght from the confidence they haue in such becawse they are false at least they might be browght to mislike them becawse they make against them Likewise when they alledge them they gyue them such an eare marck that all may know them forged But the D. doth vse them against those which hunger for proofes at his handes owt off the worde off God in the matters debated which haue that estimacion that is meet should be had off such filth as that is which could not giue credit vnto this autoritie withowt renouncing the profession off the gospell which we haue in commen And in steed off giuing him his eare marck he putteth a night cap vppon him to hide it with for in steed off alledging off him owt off the epistles where he appeareth with his hornes and clawes plainly he maketh him come owt of Polidore as disguised owt off a straunge contrey and becawse Polidores wordes did not muffle him sufficiently in saying that this was conteined in a litle summarie off Christian religion he that Clement might goe the better vnknowen added in a booke intituled c. which I merueil with what face he citeth Polidore for as if there were no difference between his and Polidorcâ wordes And he is not coÌtent onely to haue alledged the autority but as in a certein and vndoubted victorie he triumpheth and insulteth vpon his aduersarie sarie saying Peter was not Antichrist ergo the name off an Archbishop is not Antichristian In the second place he saith he vsed them not ââ sure growndeâ but as probable testimonies off antiquitie of the name Wherin his hand being with the Papistes is against not onely the manifest truth but all those godly writers which reiect those epistles as vpstartes and lately forged vnder a hedge For against them all the D. saith that it is very probable that they haue that antiquitie which they pretend Thirdly he compareth them vvith the Canons attributed vnto the Apostles wheroff albeit diuerse ââe falsely fathered yet those creeping in at sundrie times were âââwââstanding some 100. yeares before this drosse came ââto the church Wheruppon also the corruptions in them although they âaâter the walles off the cytie off God yet they rase not the foundacions off it as this Clement doth nether are they alledged off me as he pretendeth but with atteint off the basenes off their birth And for my alledging off Higinus I refer me to the indgement off the reader what a cognisance I haue gyuen him there to be knowen by His last refuge is that yt is like Polidore ment some other booke not now extant For confutation off which vnshamefast speach to what end should I other alledge the latenes off the time wherin he wrote or vnfoundnes off his iudgmeÌt wherby he hauing not made half a turne from Poperie vnto the gospell might by all likelihood think that those were Clementes epistles The weakenes off his owne proofes doo betray him as those that make more against then for him For if he will make difference between a grosse epistle and a litle booke the precise distinction tendeth rather to proue a booke then an Epistle And for the lenght it is manifest considering that Tully calleth such long letters a volume and in two or three epistles drawen owt beyond the ordinary correcteth him self as breaking the bondes off an Epistle The same may be saied both off the matter handled and off the manner off handling Which being nether commen nor familiar if a man will speake as the Latines whom Polidore followeth vse they were fitter for a booke then an Epistle That Clement scarce knowing what difference there is between the nominatiue and accusatiue case yt was
Timothe a simple bishop as left in one cytie But it is good to obserue by the vvay how the Ans building vvith one hand ouerthroweth vvith the other For let all men that haue but a graine of salt iudge how likely it is that Timothe was Archbishop wheÌ so many writers both ould and new yea some in those times that archbishops were speaking of him not one calleth him archbishop but all bishop as in his treatise may appeare but thus their tounges must be confounded that build vpp Babylon As for Titus vvhom Erasmus calleth archbishop to make his autoritie of any vveight he muste needes raise that title ether of some name giuen vnto him in the scripture or of some effect which he was knowen to excute proper to an archbishop or els off some auncient writer But he could not raise it of any title the scripture giueth him there being none such nor off any thing Titus did forasmuch as there is nothing doon off him vvhich the Ans affirmeth not to be commen to euery bishop nothing prescribed to him which was not prescribed to Timothe whom Erasmus calleth simply bishop nor off any auncient vvriter there being none browght nor as I am perswaded can be browght therfore it is cleare that Erasmus calling Titus archbishop hath no weight as one vvhich spake according to the corruption off time vvherin he liued The rest of this diuis is answered before for the next let yt be iudged how yow haue ouerthrowne that alledged towching Timothe and Tite being Euangelistes I will also refer to the readers iudgement what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie and in vvhat place the D. vvill haue vs receiue mens autoritie vvhen he vvill not haue them controlled by other men How by this meanes he that hath the first place to speake may stop the mouth off all that follow forasmuch as yt shall be vnlawfull for them ether owt off the autors vvhich the first speaker alledged or any other to oppose a contrary sentence How also this being so vnlearnedly doon off me is notwithstanding learned in him which hath vsed it diuers times I leaue also to be iudged how to the pourpose he hath alledged thes examples off Iustice and cheif Iustice seing I helped him with this kinde off diuision and yt might haue easely appeared that my argument vvas that forsomuch as the Scoliast called them simply bishope therfore yt could not be thowght that he esteemed them archbishops vvhich is opposite meÌber in this diuision Last of all how absurdly ys it saied that he which calleth an archbishop a bishop speaketh properly WheÌ he that hath litle more then learned his GraÌmer knoweth that it is a Trope vvherin the generall is taken for the speciall which is contrary to proper speach To the first reason I haue shewed vvhat mighte lead Erasmus to cal Titus archbishop ouer Crete and not Timothe ouer Ephesus To the seconde I am content that my reason off framing titles according to times be nothing worth yf Erasmus in a matter off diuinitie and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his sighte could not be deceiued which erred in many thinges and in those he sawe was ofte more Cretian theÌ Christian The third Erasmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the custome off that age wherin him selfe lyued for that there was then no bishop of Crete âs there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued ys sensles Consydering that my answer is apparante that in speaking of Titus he applied him selfe to the coustome which had preuailed in all places off calling the bishops off the metrapolitane cyties archbishops which this answer towchech not Let him shewe one approued autor for the name of archbishop or patriarch once onely vsed in Eusebius time or before to note the superioritie off one bishop ouer all his fellowes and wee will all clap our handes vnto him if he can not then yt ys shame to say those names were vsuall in Eusebius tyme. That Nicephorus spake no otherwise off Victor then yow haue set downe yt is all one to me which pourposed to shew that he spake otherwise then ether Eusebius or the trwth would suffer hauing regard vnto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors are such as they are no more beficiall to my cawse then if I had vsed their very wordes For my answer made vnto Volusianus and Erasmus that men vse to speake and to thincke for the moste parte of thinges past by the measure off thinges present yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with yet yt is so manifest and sensible that I durst barely leaue yt to the conscience off all and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung but a litle into the hand of his conscieÌce I dowbt not but he would also confesse yt Howbeit we haue a manifest example in the Centuries which confessing there was no Metropolitane in Cyprians time call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome wheÌ all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him Laste off all when yt happened vnto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane which am an enemy to that estate as I am also charged therwith by the D. following therin the custome off the tymes which folowed how muche more might that befall to others which had no such combat with that office That next conteining vaine excuses to salue ether his ignorance or his vnfaithfullnes I haue answered His escape that Iames called bishop by Eusebius to whom may be adioined Ierome yet might be Archbishop I haue coÌfuted The plenty off testimonies for the Archbishop browght now hideth not his pouertie in his fyrst boke for all may know that this haruest cam in sithens For the expositioÌ of Ireneus which interpreteh they euery one seuerally yf they seuerally ordeined bishope euery one in his circuit so it be vnderstanded with the churches consent as is before declared I am well content Yf the error off my argument had bene so grosse as yowr sight had perceiued yt I had bin sure to haue heard of yt Whatsoeuer and how many cawses soeuer yow assigne of appoincting an archbishop yet this is a perfect diuision off the subiecte that forsomuch as the Archbishopricke if any owght to be muste needes be both in some person and place not found by thapostels ordination which knewe the best gouernment nether in that person nor place both most fittest and moste likest to receiue yt yt muste folow that yt owght not to be As for yowr exception off the time fyrst yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to haue store off answer to make fowre off one for wheras the tyme and persons to be gouerned the suppression off sectes and peace off the church ⪠are put for seuerall cawses yt ys manifest that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another
a simple exception against the Councell off Vrbane that it is not to be found in the tome off Councells especially when I cite it but for a storie witnes seing there are some Councells of more weight owt off that booke then some in yt When Sozome tieth the archdeacon to the church of Alexandria as well as the Elders and Deacons onles he wll say that the Elders and Deacons were not tied vnto that church he must coÌfesse that the archdeacon was Which if it were not cleare by Sozome is manifest by the wordes of Ierome and Gregory before recited Where he saith we haue no archdeacon not tied to one church seing he is called the archdeacon off such a shire and hath his office not in one but a hundred churches I leaue it to the readers Iudgement with what boldnes he determineth to owtface all truth Likewise I leaue to his iudgement whether Ieromes wordes which to declare the manner off the bishops election bringeth for example the choise of the archdeacoÌ by the DeacoÌs be cleare to proue that I haue alledged theÌ for and how friuolous he is in his shiftes as thowgh it were so strange a thing for the soldiers to choose their Capitaine and how he taketh it for graunted that it is not materiall who chose the archdeacon which is before confuted and last of all how well he concludeth that forasmuch as a bishop is aboue a Deacon therfore he is aboue the whole colledge off Deacons Likewise how soundly he hath answered vnto the 2. next sections which to auoide the subiection off the archdeacon vnto the minister is driuen to denie that an Archdeacon is a Deacon which notwithstanding affirmeth that an Archbishop is a bishop yt being also before shewed that Gregorie calleth an archdeacon Deacon and being more clearer then the day that as the archelder was both an Elder and vnder any bishop so the Archdeacon was a Deacon and of right vnder any Elder Considering that Ierome speaketh of that Deacon at whose testimonie an Elder was made which one may easely vnderstand to haue bene an archdeacon I leaue the thinges before handled off Residence on a certein place for euery minister here is question onely what likelihood our Deanes haue with the ould Which becawse the D. will not perceiue I must be compelled to shew Augustines wodes to him better First therfore the Deanes were monkes for often monkes one was Deane and consequently not ministers when it is manifest by stories that the ould monkes were not onely no ministers of the word but not so much as within any order ecclesiasticall Secondly it was a reproche for those monkes and Deanes to be in any citie or great towne seing that a citie was a prison vnto monkes and agreed vnto them as drie laÌd vnto fish Thirdly their profession was to labour and to gaine their liuing by hand nether was it lawfull for them otherwise to liue so that he that did not labour was esteemed as a theefe beside that their diet was very homely and grosse Hetherto I think there is nothing like with our Deanes Now where the Answ saith the Deanes were set ouer the other 9. Monkes and so in their rule resemble ours he forgetteth that their rule was but in prouision for meate and playing the part off their Cater wheroff they made account vnto the Father Of whom there was no cawse the D. should make mention here but that he finding no deanly autoritie in this poore Deane would faine make it owt in the father whilest he would make the reader belieue that the Father and Deane were all one Where he saith thes were godly societies which Augustine speaketh off I will not denie but that Ierome and August with others commend them as it is not hard to shew that discommend them but that they were so what shew soeuer they bore being instituted besides the warrant off the word I vtterly denie Wherin I will refer my self to the treatises off diuers learned meÌ which haue handled that matter that I be not compelled here to set vpoÌ this vermin which the Ans raiseth againe from hell to help the office off the Deane it is enough to haue shewed that beside the name and institution withowt warrant of Gods word they haue nothing in commen As for the vnspeakable profit he saith they bring vnto the church it is but his coustome with riotous and ouerrunning wordes to supply the beggerie of his reasons and yt is confuted in an other place There remaineth one testimonie perteining to this question off tharchbishop taken owt of Beza wherby the Ans would proue thes names good and holy Wherunto before I answer to th end yt may appeare that the D. doth but hunt after wordes contrary to mennes constant practise and manifest writinges I am compelled here to open what Bezaes iudgement is off them First I haue shewed before how he holdeth that the name of dominion wheroff the Archbishop and archdeacon be made doth not agree vnto the ministerie Secondly in an other place he so far misliketh that any should be called archbishop that he saith the order vvhich for policie sake vvas taken in the auncient church that one onely amongest the Elders of euery churche should haue the name off bishop or president vvas the first foundacion vvhich the deuill laied off tyrannie in the churche After it came to Metrapolitanes vvhich they call archbishops vvhich distinction had notvvithstanding a glorious pretence that Synodes might be the easelier called and some order kept in gouernement of thinges Then to fovver Patriarches from fovver to tvvo from tvvo to one vvhich is the Pope In the end for conclusion he addeth behold vvhat it is to goe a naile breadeth from the vvord off God. Thirdly that the auncient fathers established amongest the bishops Metropolitanes he confesseth a good intent but forsomuch as that horrible tirannie vvhich proceded off them did ruine the churches and novv hindereth the reformacion off them vve vvill saith he content our selues vvith the coustome and order off the Apostles c. But what will the D. say to that he saith Archbishops aÌd Primates are a shadovv and image of the policie of Rome vvhich came in by litle and litle that he calleth them pety tyrantes in respect off the Pope that althovvgh the names be neuer so auncient yet it ovvght to haue bene inquired vvhether it vvere lavvfull to bring them into the church and if it vvere yet vvhether it be expedient novv in this regeneration off the gospell to set vp a fresh or to abolishe them that he saith it is an other reason of a Bishop Pastor Deacon Elder as those vvhich are instituted by the holy gost that he is so far froÌ allowing Archbishops that our kinde of bishops he calleth counterfaict bishops reliques of poperie such as vvill bring in Epicurisme that all vvhich vvil the churches safe must take heede of that pestilence that
the forbidding of the second mariadge off ministers before that councell Furthermore I would know what charter the Answ can shew that the firste 500. yeares within compas wherof he hathe browght his testimonies be iuste the time off the primitiue churche nether more nor lesse But thus muste he doo that hauing nothing els he might with this glorious title off the primitiueÌ churche dasell the eies off the simple Laste off all when he saithe there was no function browght into the churche the first 500. yeares alowed by generall councell or credible writer not meete for that time and alowable by the worde off God besides the grosse demaund off that in question I woulde know off him wherfore serued exorcistes when the gifte off casting forthe euill spirites was ceased what he will answer vnto Ieromes monkes Eremites Anchoristes Which were at that time very grosse what to the fower Patriarches or rather three Which by the generall Councell off Calcedon soone after 400. yeares had the gouernement off churches throwghe owte all the world whether he allowe of that famous robberie wherby the bishop off Rome Constantinople and Alexandria for the bishop of Ierusalem beside the name had scarce aplowgh lande in comparison off the rest parted the state off the whole inheritance off Christe And if it be true which he affirmed that the Councell of Calcedon offred the name vniuersall bishop vnto the bishop off Rome how will he mainteine that no generall Councell within 500. yeares alowed any office not agreable vnto the word of God and meet for those times Finally what will he say to that yt was as Iulius bishop of Rome saith decreed by the lawes off the churche and immediatly after the Nicene Councell that the Bishop off Rome must be called to the Synode and that it was voide which was doon there beside his sentence Thus yow may see that yowr selfe enemie to Antechrist throwghe your inordinate desire of making good that you haue once setdowne haue giuen him more grounde then he coulde euer by stronge hande off disputation conquer If there were no other difference betwene the times off the Apostels and those from whence the D. fetcheth his examples but this that then there vvas none so litle an error vvhich vvas not beaten dovvne as soone as euer yt peeped vp no infection being hable to laie holde off the cheif gouernours which in his times had possessed the beste off them that alone is sufficiente to shewe that examples may be safely fetched from the Apostels times which can not be withowt greate daunger drawne from his times But dothe not the D. see how greatly he is abused which compareth the heretikes off the Apostels times with the Catholikes off his their vtter falling away with the corruption of others Whereas if he woulde haue answered to that I set downe he shoulde haue compared Catholike gouernours with Catolike gouernours But he to lift vp the credite off his times and to make them equall or rather for the matter off gouernement superior vnto the Apostels compareth the rose of his with the thornes off the Apostels times the golde off those with the drosse off thes And althowghe yt be grosse answer yet as if one shoulde glorie in his shame in the nexte sextion he insulteth vppon me as thowghe he had answered very aptly and I had spoken in the ayer Wherupon I will leaue yt to the consideration off the reader whether he seeking to aduance his testimonies in those wordes hetherto Antechrist had not inuaded the churche off Rome and in thes approued off the best worthiest and eldest Councels fathers and writers and a litle after thes names were vsed in the purest times of the churche I haue to the pourpose shewed that those times were not pure nor virginlyke but that the churches were then muche departed from the singlenes vvherin the Apostels had lefte theÌ I leaue also to iudgement whether the answer I make in this behalfe be other then all those gyue which haue to doo with confutation of those popishe errors for the establishemeÌt of diuers wherof the Papistes vrge the same antiquitie which the D. now presseth vs with Clementes place which he can not finde is as I saide not far from the beginÌing of the booke who after he had shewed that certeine receiued the doctrine immediatly at the Apostles handes to note how corruption entred interlaceth this prouerbe in a parenthesis fevv children are like their fathers And if it be grieuous for him with reading off two or three leaues to seeke yt he shall haue a shorter way for yt is repeated of Eusebius As for the nexte section wherin Socrates testimonie is wiped awaye by accusing him of the Nouatian heresie besides a proofe off the light esteme off autors which make againste him he gaineth nothing For there is nothing saide off Socrates which is not confirmed otherwise The bishop off Salisbury alledgeth somewhere owt of Origen off the whole estate off bishops which Socrates saide of theÌ of Rome and Alexandria that the bishops euen in his time and vnder the clogge off persequutioÌ seemed to passe the rage of wordly Princes And where he saith Socrates vniustly reproueth the bishop of Rome c. how vntrue that is may cuidnetly appeare for as much as the bishop whoÌ Socrates speaketh of was Celestinus whoÌ the Ans before saith to haue claimed superioritie off all churches and taken vpon him as yt were the name off vniuersall bishop Nether did that proude statelines of the Romishe Bishop which Socrates speakethe of beginne in Celestinus which banished the Nouatians but was in his predecessors Boniface Zosimus and Innocentius c. as may appeare by diuers monumentes of that time And Socrates doth not reproue them for that they were ennemies to the Nouatian heretikes but for that they tooke vpon them to exile them vvhich perteined not vnto the Bishop but vnto the magistrate Also it appeareth that Theodosius the Emperour had permitted the Nouatians to haue a churche there so that there was double fault in the Bishop which in steed that he should haue contented him self to preach that it was not meet to haue suche heretikes in the church tooke vpon him to put them owt both by strong hand and contrary to the Emperours permission And if Celestinus were suche as the D. hathe tolde vs then it is so farre that Socrates speaking off him as I haue alledged did it of euill will that he is rather to be be accused for to soft speache in suche a heinous faulte Where he saithe I haue falsified Socrates which for passing beyonde the limites of priestehood to an owtwarde dominion haue set downe leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion I leue yt to the iudgement of all indifferencie what cause he hathe to make suche an alarme for so small a matter when yt is plaine that how
howshoulde considering that he opposeth the gouernement off his howse to the gouernement of the church yt followeth therfore that he appointeth hym to one particular church That by this word church must be vnderstanded one of thes three significacions yt standeth vpon this grownd that in none off S. Paules other Epistles or S. Lukes writinges that word church is euer vsed otherwise and neuer signifieth the church ether off Prouince or Dioces For when the Apostles vtter the companie off belieuers in such a circuit they alwaies speake in the plurall nombre and call them the churches of such and such a place And if it can be shewed that this word is taken in them for the faithful in a whole prouince or dioces I will giue ouer the hould of this argument If as I perswade my self that can not be doon then the church assigned vnto S. Paules bishop is a particular congregacion Moreouer S. Paul writing to Tite to appoint Elders throwgh euery towne which were vnblamable addeth because a bishop must be vnblamable Wherupon ether euery towne must haue a bishop or his reason is not well knit For he should both giue his rule off one thing and his reason off an other and it should come to passe that those churches vvhich haue no bishops might lawfully haue slaunderous and spotted bishops seing his onely reason why elders of euery towne owght to be withowt reproche is because a bishop must be so Againe vvhere it is saide that Paule and Barnabas apointed by voice elders in euery churche ether beside the auncientes off the churche the Bishop was ordeined or els the famous cities of Antioche I conium and Listra in the number of those churches there mencioned receiued no bishop But the Ans him selfe affirmeth that the Apostels ordeined bishops in the principall cities and townes therfore vnder thes wordes ⪠they ordeined elders by voice in euery churche ys vnderstanded that they ordeined bishops in euery churche For S. Luke vsing the same wordes to set for the the ministerie off all other churches wherwith he settethe forthe the ministerie off those famous cities vnlesse he will denie there were Bishops there he muste off necessitie graunt that the other churches had their bishops aswell as they Laste off all vnles yt be the institution off God that euery particular congregacion shoulde haue her bishop in that largies and bountifull liberalitie of ecclesiasticall ministers which S. Paule shewethe our Sauiour Christe bestowed vppon his churche after he was ascended nothing falleth to the lot of the partilar churches But yt ys horrible iniurie vnto the liberalitie off Christe so to shutte his hande which he opened so wide therfore it muste needes be that our Sauiour Christe gaue euerie churche her Bishop as for the apostles EuaÌgelistes and Prophetes beside that their ministerie was not streightned vnto particuler churchs they are as before hathe bene shewed ceassed There remaine therfore of the ministeries there reckened the Pastor and Doctor wherof whether the bishop be the same with the Pastor as some thinck or whether he conteine both Pastor and Doctor as other some esteme it ys manifest that ether euery particular churche must haue a bishop ⪠or els none of those ministeries there recited For if it be saied that taking a bishop for the same vvith a Pastor the particular congregations hauing the Doctor may haue one off them althowgh they haue no bishop it is easy to answere that if the Pastor most necessarie and vvhom the churche can worst spare doo not belong the Doctor can les be thowght to apperteine to a particular church And thus far owt of the scripturs for proofe of a bishop in euery particular church yt followeth to shew the traces of this institution in the primitiue church vvhich succeded next vnto the Apostels The same the D. supposeth the true Ignatius writeth thus Euery church should haue her altar and euery churche her bishop And lest peraduenture the D. should interprete euery church euery dioces or prouince beside that I haue shewed that signification of churche was vnknowen vnto those times the autors meaning is cleare to the contrary when he saithe euery church should haue her communion table which he calleth vnproperly an altar Onles therfore the D. will say that his meaning is there should be but one coÌmunion table in a whole dioces or prouince this hole is stopped vp against him And if as he would make vs belieue this was Iohn thapostles scholer then amongest the testimonies of men this may worthely beare the bell Yf not as I for my part thinck yet the later he is the longer is proued this order of hauing a bishop in euery particular congregation seing he sheweth what the face off the church was in those times when he liued Epiphanius prouing a bishop and preaching Elder to differ which cometh after to be examined saith vvhere not as the Pope and the Answ in what great cytie soeuer there vvas found any vvorthy to be bishop there a bishop vvas appointed yea and vvhere there vvas not to fournish both bishop and preaching Elder there thapostles made a bishop and left the Elder So that by his Iudgement bishops were in greater nombre then then preaching Elders That the same was also in Cyprians time shall appeare God willing in the places after to be handled owt off him From his time vnto the Councell off Nice we haue the storie of Eusebius wherin as in a glasse we may see that the churche in this point was litle altered Considering that he assigneth the bishops charge continually for any thing that ether the Ans sheweth or I can gather to one church or to the churches in one citie onely Which maie better appeare in that his bishops are so often times called the bishop off a parishe as hath bene shewed and that he confoundeth a parishe with a churche a pastor with a Bishop as shall appeare so that onles the Answ will saie that there was in those times but one parish church pastor in compas off a prouince or dioces he muste be constreined to confesse that euery particuler churche for the moste parte had a Bishop And althowgh after time of the Nicene Councell there is no dowbt but that as the Bishops had more occasions of enlarging their boundes throwghe the disordered zeale off the godlie Emperours so they let not slip those occasions yet if we consider the estate off the churche what yt was abowte 400. yeares after Chryste we shall finde that bishops were not the tenth parte so thyn sowen as ours be now If a bishop ranne in to any slaunder and the slaunder pressing him he coulde not assemble a greate nomber of bishops to the ende he shoulde not remaine in that slaunder the Councell off Carthage was off aduise that his cause shoulde be hearde off twelue bishops and his owne bishop And an other that if an elder were accused he might call 6. bishops froÌ
thapostels times at Philippos where Paul expresly saluteth diuers bishops at Ephesus froÌ wheÌce certein bishops sent for came to MiletuÌ Likewise in the church off Thessalonica there were diuers Presidentes the same by the D. diuinitie that Bishop or Archbishop And as it was in those churches so yt ys like to haue bene in other off greate resorte to heare the worde off God and habilitie to enterteine a more plentifull ministery Nether let him as he is wont oppose vnto the manifest wordes off the scripture Ambroses exposition vpon the place to the Philippians nor that which goeth vnder Ieromes name vpon the same For as for Ambrose a childe may see how violently he forceth the texte and what inconuenience he runnethe into to make yt agree with the coustome off his times wherin this order was for the moste parte worne owt And as for the other he is a couÌterfaicte and so marked not onely because he contrarieth that which Ierome did plainly teache but also for that the forme off writing is farre off another complexion Yt can not be denied but that this order of God was strickeÌ at by diuers canons off Councels and that as this was the firste attempte which the deuill gaue to abridge the nomber off Bishops in the churche so yt was more aunciente then that other off robbing the villages and small Cyties off their bishops Vpon what rotten groundes this abuse crepte in cometh afterward to be considered here yt is to be noted that this corruption was not so generall but that often times yt admitted exception And notwithstanding bothe custome and Canons in that behalfe good men vpon occasion made no conscience to ordeine twoo bishops of one citie Euseb maketh mention of Narcissus and Alexander Bishops at ones in one parishe and if yt be true which he reporteth that the same was by reuelation from heauen yt ys a good argumente that this voice was as yt were a repeale off that custome which had bene browght in contrarie to the firste institution off god Yt is writteÌ off Augustine that he was made bishop off Hippo bothe by the instante requeste off Valerius then another bishop there and by the consente off the Metra politane Bishop off Carthage And albeit in consideration off the canons made to the contrarie Augustine was lothe to take the charge yet instantly required he accepted yt Augustine him selfe also was off aduise that in those places where was a Donatiste Bishop and a catholike if the Donatiste returned vnto the vnitie of the churche then he should be receiued into the felowship off the bishops office with the catholike bishop Where he putteth onely thes exceptions if the people vvill suffer yt yf becavvse yt is not accoustomed the people vvill beare it Wherby is cleare that notwithstanding it was forbiddeÌ by canons yet he thowght yt not vnmeet to haue two bishops in one church if the people would beare it and if he were of this aduise notwithstanding the couÌcels to the coÌtrary how much more would he haue thought it meet if the church had required aÌd made sute for it Also it is not to be forgotten that although this corruption off gyuing the name bishop to one in a church from the rest to whom it did off right belong be auncient yet godly men misliked it and by all likelihood broke it of Which Ieromes wordes do apparantly import this coustome vvas in the church off Alexandria from S. Mark vntill Heraclas and Dionysius For onles there were some change then why would he not rather haue saied from S. Mark vntill his time considering that all that time there was continuall succession of church and bishops Therfore belike those godly men seing the mischeif like to ensue of that coustome and vnderstanding that thinges owght to be called to the apostolick institution changed that coustome Furthermore it is diligently to be considered that this order off hauing one onely in euery church to haue the name of Bishop ouerspred not the church soudenly and at a clap but entred by litle and litle so that it is like there were diuers ages past or euer this had a generall passage thorowgh all the churches in the world By all which it may appeare how the Ans is abused in saying it can not be shewed from Christes time that euer there were two bishops in one church Thes thinges being thus laied let vs now come to Cyprians Testimonies Caput 3. VNto the firste diuision I haue answered In the second to proue that Cyprian speakethe off an Archbishop the D. concludeth thus yt is the principall office of the archbishop to prouide that peace and vnitie be kept in the churche c. but the office off him whom Cyprian describeth is to keepe peace in the churche therfore Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop This argumente is caste in the same moulde that those which he hathe vntrwly compared my reason vnto before and yt hathe almost more faultes then wordes But that the simplest maye see his dealing yt is to be vnderstanded that as the pretence off institucion off the Archbishop was to keepe peace and suppresse scismes so the onely pretence off translating the name off bishop from manie in one churche vnto one onely was the same as appeareth by the place off Ierome after discussed To let passe therfore that I haue proued and will after more appeare that there was then nether Archbishop nor Metropolitane and for disputacion sake to imagin Archbishops then yet when bothe the name and office Cyprian speaketh of agree vnto him which gouerneth in euerie churche or to speake as the D. speaketh diocese and the office onely withowte the name agreethe to the Archbishop yt must needes be meeter âo refer Cypcians wordes to the Bishop then to the Archbishop seing that there be more cordes off reasons to pull them that waies then the other At the leaste yt is cleare that the Argument off the A. is faultie seing yt was not onely the principall office off the Archbishop to prouide for peace c. but the same also was the principall office off the Bishop as that vnder pretence wherof that kinde off Bishop was instituted Where he cometh to his oulde hole that althowghe the name be not there yet the office is I refere my selfe vnto that written before in that be halfe Howbeit here yt appeareth how he spake withowt booke saying all writers before the Nicene Councell make mention bothe off their names and offices when as Cyprian one off them hathe no worde off them Where he saithe Cypr. speaketh off Cornelius who had gouernement off all the prouince that is the question which becawse he coulde not proue he taketh graunted Where he addeth Cyprian had the charge and ouersight off all churches in Aphrica and for proofe alledgeth the 4. booke 8. Epistle he is abused for Cyprian dothe saie no suche thing He speaking there off himselfe and
in the bishop of Salisbury and M. Beza which both affirme the same As the D. coulde frame no argument oute of Cyprians place for the office off tharchbishop withowte begging so he can not answer the reasons againste the Archbishop owte off Cyprian withowt the same For where I shewed that the whole people mentioned of Cyprian being not the people of a diocese or Prouince were notwithstanding those which Cyprians bishops gouerned aÌd therfore that they were not ouer a diocese or Prouince he answereth that if I hadred any stories I might vnderstande that bishops were chosen onely by the Cytisens of that place wherof they were called bishops and by no other in their Prouince or diocese Which is a grosse answer For althowghe the stories off later times wherin yt is not denied but thes offices were make suche mentioÌ yet what is that to our cawse whose controuersie is whether yt were so in Cyprians times as in times that folowed If he can shewe any ecclesiasticall storie off like auncientie vvith Cyprian that maketh mencion off suche election then he saith somewhat yf he can not he doothe to much abuse the time and the reader And certenly if CypriaÌ said had no more but the people chuse theÌ bishops yet withowte contrary proofe he owght by all reasonable vnderstanding be iudged to speake off all that people ouer which he had gouernement but when he addeth all the people he leauethe no controuersie And in the same place he saithe for the due making of ElectioÌs the nexte bishops of that Prouince vvhere the place is voide must come vnto the people ouer vvhom the bishop is set and the bishop ovvght to be chosen in the presence off the people Vppon which wordes yt maie thus be further reasoned that people in whose presence the Bishop was chosen was that over which the bishop was set but the bishop was chosen in the presence off the people off one congregacion therfore the people ouer which the Bishop was set was the people off one congregacion The firste propositioÌ is manifeste by Cyprians wordes the people ouer vvhom the bishop vvas to be set ovvght to be presente for election off the bishop The seconde is also cleare forsomuch as it coulde not be with any conuenience that all the people off a diocese or Prouince shoulde meete allwaies for the chusing of their bishop especially in time of persequution And therin I will refer my selfe to the iudgemeÌt of the reader how absurdly the D. saith afterward all the people of a prouince or diocese might meete then withowte perill or inconuenience And where he saithe there were suche metinges at Synodes in those tymes he is abused considering that the churches met not but their gouernours and not all but certeine owte off euery quarter as he might easely knowe by the practise off all times For althowghe it was not denied vnto priuate men to be presente at Councells yet yt was very rare that they were found there in anie number vnles vpoÌ some notable controuersie and that not by appointmeÌt or order takeÌ as in thelectioÌ of their bishop but onely at their pleasure And if yet the D. be off that boldnes that withowte any proofe owt of antiquitie he will expounde this worde all by some or as he doothe in the nexte diuis by manie and vvhole by parte and that the smallest parte and people by cytizens to the open violence off Cyprians wordes yet that all his starting holes maie be stopped let vs further examin the place of Cyprian owte of which he woulde confirme the office off the archbishop Neither haue heresies or schismes rysen of other occasion then of that the priest of God is not obeied nether one preist for the time in the church and one iudge for the time in steede off Christ thovvght vpoÌ to vvhoÌ if the vvhole brotherhood vvould be obedieÌt c. To shape an archbishop or bishop such as is with vs owte of this place the D. is coÌpelled to expounde this worde church by Diocese or Prouince Which if it be truly downe then thes wordes also the vvhole brotherhoode must be expounded of all those which are in the Prouince or diocese For both the whole brotherhood are those which belong vnto that church and if there should be any moe in Cyprians church theÌ those conteined in thes wordes the vvhole brotherhood yt were no remedie against heresies and schismes to haue the whole brotherhood obedient vnto the preiste Yf I can therfore shew that thes wordes the vvhole brotherhood signifie onely one particuler assembly yt muste folow that nether Cyprians bishop is an Archbishop nor the churche there specified a diocese or Prouince but onely a particular congregacion In the nexte sentence therfore yt is saide in the election off Sabinus the bishopricke vvas giuen him by voice off the vvhole brotherhood Now considering that the whole brotherhood did chuse Sabinus and yt is certein that nether the whole Prouince nor dioces chose him yt is manifest that thes wordes vvhole brotherhood with Cyprian signifie not the people off a dioces or Prouince but off one particular churche Againe in Cyprians wordes heresies rise and schismes begin off this that the priest off God is not obeyed is an other argument to proue that by priest must needes be vnderstanded the minister in euery seuerall congregation For seing obedience vnto this priest hindreth the beginning and seed off both heresies and schismes and this can not be if obedience be giuen onely to one bishop in adioces or archbishop in a Prouince onles also euery minister in his particular congregation be obeied yt must follow that the priest Cyprian speaketh of is the minister off euery particular congregacion For otherwise the remedie against heresies and schismes which his wordes promise doth not follow For it is diligently to be weighed that Cyprian saith not heresies and schismes therfore continue in the church or therfore are not taken away becawse the priest is not obeied but rise haue their seedes and first beginning becavvse c. Wheras if he would haue set forth a bishop of a dioces or archbishop of a Prouince he should haue saied the cawses why heresies and schismes are continued and not why they rise Considering that the vertue off thes offices is phansied to compose and decide schismes and heresies and that althowgh the people be by them cured off their heresies and schismes when they are fallen into them yet they can not by their teachinges be kept from entrance into them being so far off and seldome or neuer hearing their voice Moreouer as it is saied here there is one priest in the church so in an other place there ovvght to be but one pastor in one place and againe euery pastor hath a portion off the floock committed vnto him vvheroff he must gyue account vnto the Lord. Yf therfore he will not suffer this one priest in the church to be applied to moe then
otherwise yt is nothing why doth he let his cause fall for wante of shewing yt For where he saithe he hathe shewed yt before there is no word founding that waies And Eusebius saying that he did fulfill the office off a Bishop in the cytie of Rome will not suffer the D. to lurk in that corner onles paraduenture he will say the church in the cytie off Rome was spred thorowgh the whole Prouince And when Ruffine sheweth that the Bishop of Rome about a hundred and fiftie yeares after at what time the Bishops had spred the winges of their dominion had but the churches in the suburbs and round about Rome is it a like thing that Cornelius had rule off all churches of Italy For althowgh the coustome whiche the Nicene Councell speaketh of should haue bene euen from Cornelius tyme yet yt is cleare that Cornelius had not gouernement off the churches off all Italy but onely of those in the suburbs of Rome For answer vnto thes bare and bold sayinges ⪠I refer my self partly to that before spoken that thes vvordes must be vnderstanded nether off Prouince nor dioces but onely of particular assemblies partly to that which followeth After I saying that forsomuch as Cornelius saied to haue banished one ovvt of his church could not banish him ovvt of the Prouince therfore church aÌd ProuiÌce be diuers he answereth thowgh he could not banish him owt off the prouince yet he might excoÌmunicate him froÌ the coÌgregatioÌ thorowghowt the Prouince wherin beside that he still presupposeth an archbishop which is in coÌtrouersie whilest he gyueth Cornelius power to excommunicate thorowgh the whole Prouince he is also deceiued that thincketh by thes wordes is ment that Cornelius did excommunicate Felinus For he was excommunicated before by the Bishops off Africk so that Cornelius had not to doo to excommunicate him Where for confirmacion of his answere he asketh whether he forcibly shut him owt of the locall church of Rome I answer that if he had remembred that there were then doorekepers to withstand those that cut from the church would enter in he should not haue thought it so straunge a thing that Heretikes vvere shut forth from the locall church especially seing he seemeth to haue allowed dorekepers as officers necessarie for those times And althowgh it were permitted vnto heretikes by Cornelius and his fellowes to enter into the locall church yet he might haue considered that when they offered them selues vnto the lordes table Cornelius with his assistance owght to see them remoued Seing therfore this not suffring of Felicissimus to enter into the church is no excommunication as the D. saith and carieth necessarily with yt that which Cornelius coulde not doo throwghe the Prouince but onely in place where he was present yt muste folow that by the worde churche where this was doone a particular place muste be vnderstanded and not as is supposed ether diocese or Prouince Where I shewed that forasmuche as by churche is mente the place vvhere the poenitents confessed their faultes that being nether diocese nor Prouince but a particular congregation the word church also must note a particular congregation the D. answereth that forsomuch as Nouatus denied forgiuenes vnto the fallen the meaning off Cyprian is nothing els but that Nouatus did not receiue theÌ into the generall and catholike church off Christ Wherin he hath cleane ouerturned the meaning off Cyprian which is not to shewe as he saith that Nouatus woulde not suffer those that had fallen to be receiued into the lap of the church which thinge was notoriously knowen of it selfe but to shew what were the impieties vvhich waited vppon that heresie amongest which he placeth thys that therby publicke confession off faultes to be made in euery particuler congregacion a singular exercise off pietie and true worship of God was quite taken awaie And wherfore in translating my wordes to no pourpose nor to no aduantage off his hath he passed by so slyly those wordes the threshoulde off the church For if by confession of faultes in the churche Cyprian meane the generall and catholike churche off Christe I would gladly know off hym whether the catholike churche off Christ haue a threshould and if it haue where he will assigne it Laste off all where as owte of thes wordes off Cyprian they dare nor approche the threshould off the churche but vvander abroade in the Prouince I conclude that the worde churche can not be taken for the Prouince being opposed vnto yt he answereth that Cyprian dothe oppose there the churche vnto heretikes and not vnto a Prouince This is straunge that by a churche Cyprian muste meane a Prouince and by the worde Prouince he must not meane a Prouince and in saying they roued abovvte the Prouince to deceiue and spoile the brethren yt is cleare that by Prouince are not vnderstaÌded the heretikes in the Prouince for brethreÌ be not heretikes Where he would gyue to vnderstande that the Prouince yf yt be Christened being the churche can not be opposed vnto the churche in deede yf by opposed were meÌ te contrarie he had saide truly but when by opposed or set againste he coulde not be ignorant but I mente that which was diuers he might haue knowne that as a Christian diocese maye be opposed vnto a Christian Prouince so a particular Christian churche maye be opposed vnto ether off bothe I would yow would omit nothing which might make for yowr pourpose but I woulde wish that yow woulde not repete one thing so often For if they had no good tast at the first surely by this often seathing they are altogether vnsauory Cyprians matter is answered the diuision of ecclesiasticall functions into three degrees bishop Elder as yow say priest and Deacon I haue shewed to make flatly against yow There remaineth here that I answer vnto Demetrius vvhich was about the yeare off the Lorde 291. Who if he were bishop off so many churches as is supposed there is the greater likelihood that in Cyprians time there might be bishops of the same breede First if I graunt that he had such a superintendence ouer all the parishes off Alexandria and Egypt as Cyprian is saied of Gregorie Nazienzen almost ouer all the world that is that for his learning and godlines he was sowght to off all the bishops of those partes the Answ seeth he can gaine nothing therby to settle ether his bishop archbishop or Metropoliran But I answer that he hath vnfaithfully reported Eusebius yea and that also pretending to set downe the autors wordes as appeareth for that he hath set them in latin Eusebius very wordes are thes Laetus vvas then gouernour off Alexandria and the rest of Aegypt and Demetrius then nevvly after Iuliane receiued vpon him the Bishops office off the parishes there Here yt appeareth that Eusebius saith that Laetus the magistrat gouerned bothe Alexandria and Agypt but speaking of the Bishoprick off Demetrius onely saith he vvas
Bishop off the paris hes there which when by common construction yt maye be aswell referred vnto Alexandria onely or vnto the reste off Egypte onely or to bothe together yt was to greate boldnes not onely to gather this sense of Eusebius but also to bringe him in so speaking But that the worde there can not be referred vnto the reste off Aegypte but onely hathe relation vnto the parishes off Alexandria and that as there are no suche wordes as yow ascribe vnto Eusebius so there can be no suche sense as yow Imagin yt may easely and clearly be vnderstanded off that before and after For if nether the bishops of Alexandria before Demetrius nor those after him vnto the times wherin Cyprian and Cornelius liued had that Iurisdiction ouer Egipt which yow Imagin then by all reasonable vnderstanding yt muste be estemed that this worde there owght to be restreined vnto Alexandria Abilius the thirde Bishop off Alexandria after Marke had bene in that churche about the yeare of our Lorde a 100. Eusebius affirmeth to haue bene bishop off the parishe off Alexandria but of the other partes of Egypt maketh no meÌtion He saith the same off Primus succeding him in that bishoprick off Alexandria the same off Iustus which succeded Primus the same of Eumenes which succeded him the same off an other Marke which succeded him the same of Celadion which succeded him the same off Agrippa whoÌ also he calleth Agripinus which succeded him And where speaking off all the former he saide they vvere bishops off the Parishe off Alexandria off Iuliane which succeded Agripinus he saith he gouerned the churches in or at Alexandria vttering the same thinge by diuers wordes Vnto this Iuliane succeded Demetrius off whom is saide as before hathe bene shewed yea off those which succeded Demetrius as famous and as renoumed as he there is no suche thinge For off receiued the ministerie vvhich vvas at Alexandria likewise of Dionisius which succeded Heracles that he receiued the gouernement of the churches vvhich vvere at Alexandria which Dionysius liued abowte the times off our Cyprian and Cornelius which we haue presently in hande When therfore the Bishops of Alexandria so famous are not red to haue had bishoply autoritie off anie Prouince but are conteined within the circuit off one citie vntill the time off Cyprian and Cornelius yt appeareth not onely that the D. hathe bene abused in thes wordes off Eusebius but that this owght to be an other marke to know that nether Cyprian nor Cornelius had any Bishoplicke autoritie at all further then the cyties wherin their churches were And withall appeareth the cawse why Euseb did no more particularly restreine the bishoprick off Demetrius vnto Alexandria namely for that he had so often spoken before of the precinctes of that bishoprick The next diu hath nothing worth answer being onely that which I in few wordes subscribed vnto Sauing this that Cyprian was Pupianus bishop which maketh nether whot nor kolde vnto this question seing that Pupianus was no bishop but one that sometime had bene off Cyprians churche But of answer to my argument that forasmuche as Cyprian condemneth the pride of Pupian for that his deede vvas like as if one should be appointed bishop of a bishop or iudge of iudge there is no newes wheras if yt were not a proude thinge to be bishop of a bishop c. Cypr. did with no good aduise set owte the faulte of Pupian by those wordes And that Cyprian complaineth not off any wronge doone to him as archbishop which the Ans afraied to affirme would haue his reader thinck but onely as he was Bishop yt appeareth manifestly by diuers places in that he denieth that he pressed him vvith further autoritie then that vvhich all bishops had by succession vnto the Apostels That Cyprian did not obiecte this to appointe hym selfe bishop of a bishop as a prowde name but as a prowde deede is a poore exception for if yt were a prowde deede to exercise the office off bishop ouer a bishop yt muste be also a proude name to be called the bishop off a bishop The Answ wordes carie no meaning with them to coÌclude that which this cawse requireth For what meaneth this one bishop off a Prouince had no autoritie ouer another but were equall what is this to my reason which is that forsomuche as the godly vvriters proue the equalitie off the bishop off Rome vvith other bishops for that they called one another fellovves and brethren the bishops off dioceses and metropolitanes calling one an other fellovv bishop fellovv in office brother c doo therby declare that there vvas none vvhich ruled ouer an other For onles the reason be firme in the one yt is not good in the other But he answereth further Cyprian in calling the bishops off his Prouince fellow bishops and brethren declared therby the function to be all one So may the Papistes answer that the Bishop off Rome called the Bishops his fellowes and brethren becawse they had the same function and not in that for pollicie sake they were not subiect vnto him But as that so this is an absurd answer The Godly writers vse not this reason to proue that other bishops exercised the same ministerie off the word and Sacramentes with the bishop of Rome which the Pope him self confesseth but to proue that they were not vnder but off the same autoritie with him which he denieth The next answer Cyprian in calling them fellow bishops declareth his humble spirit is I doubt not althowgh I can not presently note the place another buckler off the Papistes againste this reason As if true humilitie did hinder any to take that honour which his lawfull office ether in churche or commen wealth doth put vpon him He further answereth that S. Peter calling the Bishops and Pastors to whom he wrote fellow Elders was notwithstanding higher in degree then they I graunt but I denie that therfore S. Peter could exercise dominion ouer them When it is saied that fellow bishop importeth equalitie yt is not ment so much for honour as for equalitie in autoritie that one hath ouer an other For in honour the bishop off Rome had some preeminence ouer the Alexandrine c. yt being graunted him to haue the first seat in meetinges which notwithstanding had no dominion Therfore this maketh directly against the dominion off Archbishops For if Peter in degree off ministrie aboue the pastors in calling them fellow elders renounced dominion ouer them how much more owght they forbeare to vse dominion ouer those with whom they carie the same yoke and degree off ministrie To that owt off Cyprian none of theÌ toke him self bishop off bishops he answereth he meaneth the title off vniuersall bishop which how absurdly it is spoken may appeare by that a before spoken off the Africane Councell His second answer is a pinch at Cyprians autoritie for that thes wordes were
Callis Deep Ireland and Flaunders then at Canterbury Yea the triall from Carthage vnto Rome is much easier seing there was but three daies iorney betwene Rome and Carthage As appeareth by that Cato to induce the Senate of Rome to desiroy Carthage held ovvt a fig saying that vvas but the third day sitheÌs that fig grevv in Carthage Therfore Cyprians argument by his interpretacion is not worth a shoe buckle to proue that they owght not to flie from Carthage to Rome the passage being easter then from one end of a Prouince to an other Especially making suche large Prouinces as he doth that is one to coÌteine 160. bishoprickes belike such as ours Where he saith this reason may serue as well againest VVestminster hall leauing that as impertinent vnto this question it shall be sufficieÌt to answer that besides that there be many causes ended in lower courtes houldeÌ almost in euery village he owght to vnderstand that ecclesiasticall causes are to be handled with greater speed then ciuill matters of conscieÌce more then of the pourse the title of heaueÌly inheritance more then the earthly of the life to come then of this So that althowgh the trial of ciuill cawses for the whole realme were as he saith necessary aâ Westminster yet the same reason will not stand in ecclesiasticall In all thes places which the Ans hath browght owt off Cyprian Eusebius Socrates it is manifest that one bishop is opposed vnto heretick bishops Whereby may appeare how like it is which I haue alledged that by one bishop is vnderstanded not the vnitie off nombre but off truth in religion And that there be no doubt hereof let Cyprians wordes be considered That there should be an other altar appointed and a nevv priesthood besides one altar and one priesthood it can not be VVhatsoeuer he be vvhich gathereth iÌn an other place scattereth yt is adulterous yt is vvicked yt is sacriledge vvhatsoeuer the rage off men doth institute vvherby the ordinance off God is broken Now except the Ans will say it is wicked against the word of God adulterous to haue two bishops in one citie yt must follow that Cyprians wordes doo not bar many bishops to be in one citie And what if it be shewed that not onely in Cyprians time but in Cyprians church there were diuers bishops Augustine speaking of the Donatistes which seperated them selues from the church for that they saw certein faultes vnpunished therin saith Hovv did then Cyprian and other the Lordes corne in that church meaning Carthage of vnitie eate the Lordes breade and drink his cup not vvith the people onely or commen sort off the Clergie but vvith the bishops themselues vvhich vvere couetous ketchers and vvhich shall not possesse the kingdome off heauen I woulde gladly vnderstand what Bishops they were like to be with vvhom Cyprian did celebrate the supper off the lord were they not Bishops off the churche off Carthage If they were it appeareth I haue not so vainly expounded Cyprian as the Ans would beare his reader in hand And althowgh the D. be not able to proue that ther was but one onely bishop in a citie in Chysostomes time yet I graunt that was obserued in the moste places Whether I am able to shew that from Christes time there were two Bishops in one cytie before appeared now appeareth what a vaine crack it was that all the godliest and best learned expound Cyprians wordes off an Archbishop when not one can be found to testifie it Yet to th end he may haue some thing to mainteine this brag he goeth about to make the writers differ from them selues For if this place be off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his dioces as writers doo flatly affirme in so much that the bishop off Salisbury bringeth in Cyprian speaking after this sort For euery bishop saith Cyprian vvithin his ovvne dioces is the priest of God c then yt cannot be vnderstanded of an Archbishop For the autoritie Cyprian speaketh off being the highest and such as could not be controlled of any other bishop yt must necessarily seclude tharch bishops autoritie which is aboue a bishop And as the Answ to make Cyprians place serue his turne was compelled to expound Priest archbishop church Prouince so to make the bishop and M. Fox help to beare owt his folies he must expound dioces Prouince and Bishop archbishop And what manÌer of proofe is this to coÌclude the greater by the lesse yf of an archbishops autoritie he had concluded a bishops it had bene more probable but off a bishops to conclude an archbishops and off dominion ouer a dioces as he pretendeth to conclude dominion ouer one Prouince is far owt off square The next is answered in the beginning The first place is that the bishop vpon that of Cyprian saith confusion and sectes rise in a Prouince or dioces vvhere the Bishops autoritie c. Here because the bishop maketh mention off Prouince he concludeth that he speaketh off an archbishop As if his wordes may not well be taken that the confusion of secres insueth in a whole Prouince thorowghowt because the bishops autoritie which be theriÌ is dispised For beside that I haue shewed that the bishop can not sauing his former sentence which he soft repeateth expound Cyprians place off an archbishop if he had in this place ment an archbishop it had bene easie to haue coupled him with his Prouince as he doth the bishop with his dioces He asketh me what I call him that hath gouernement off a Prouince I aske him where the bishop off Sal. saith Cyprians place is to be vnderstood of that bishop which hath gouernement off a Prouince doth the onely mention of the word Prouince ⪠infer an Archbishop If he proue an Archbishop and Prouince relatiues so that a man can not name the one but he muste vnderstand the other he saith some thing Ad also that the Ans dealeth vnfaithfully in this place For the bishop making his conclusion both off Cyprian and of a place off Honorius Emperour he propoundeth it as the conclusion of Cyprians place onely Whereas if he could conclude off thes wordes vvithin a prouince an archbishop yet yt were easie to answer that the bishop put in those wordes in respect of the place cyted owt of the Emperour and not in respect off Cyprians Considering that within a dousen lines after he affirmeth that Cyprians place is vnderstanded off thautoritie off a Bishop within his seuerall dices and by vvhole Brotherhood a companie vvithin a seuerall dioces For that off M. Novvell pag. 33. beside that whatsoeuer he speaketh there is not vpon this place of Cyprian but of an other I haue shewed in the former booke that cheif Prelate ys not alwaies vsed for a bishop And that it is not altogether vnlike but M. Nowell might meane so appeareth by that the D. cyteth owt off the 62. and 63. pag. wherehe taketh cheif
which the Ans hathe alledged yf yt be weighed dothe sufficiently declare how farre Dionysius was front that antoritie euer the churches off Pentapolis which he imagineth For there ys shewed bow when he vnderstoode off certeine bishops there leauened with the heresie of Sabellius he sente messengers to them to call them backe from their heresie And when they wente yet forwarde more impudently what iurisdiction doothe he exercise againste them doothe he cause them to appeare before him send owt the sentence off excoÌmunication remoue them from their charges suspende them at the leaste vntill some triall off their amendement none off all thes but saith he vvas by this stubbernes off theirs compelled to vvrite againste them And yet if Dionysius might haue vsed this autoritie he woulde no dowbte and if he had Athanasius would by no meanes haue let it passe For if he could haue alledged that Dionysius had ether deposed suspended or excommunicated those Sabellian bishops yt had bene a singular meanes to haue stopped the mouthe off the Arrians which woulde haue borne men in hande that Dionysius fauored Sabellius heresie and consequently also theirs And towching the gouernement off his owne churche in Alexandria how farre yt was from that lordlie dominion the bishops and archbishop vse now maie appeare in that he calleth the elders off the churche off Alexandria his felovv elders After folowethe one Gregory which he auoucheth owte of Euseb 7. li. 24. to haue gouerned all the churches throwghe Pontus firste this word all is not founde there Secondly yt is vtterly vntrue that he saith he gouerned all the churches For Eusebius ioineth Athenodorus with him as his matche in all pointes So that if there were any archbishop there it was two headed contrary to the archbishops institution supposed of his patrons Thirdly yt appeareth in an other place where Eusebius speaketh of them againe that they were not bishops off all the churches of Pontus but had onely their parishes or churches in Pontus And the cause why Euseb made mention of those onely was as is there apparant because they were the moste famous amongeste the Bishopes in those partes and therfore by all likelihood chosen owte off the reste were sent vnto the Councell off Antioche gathered against the heresie of Sabellius Therforè he which is saide off the D. to haue bene ruler off all the churches off Pontus is founde to haue but one onely parishe in that circuite Peter Bishop off Alexandria foloweth which hauing regarde vnto the time wherin he died was onely aboute eight yeares before the Councell off Nice So that the Answ in saying he was 20. yeares before must be vnderstaÌded of the tyme he entred into his bishoprick Of him Epiphanius saithe he had the administracion of all the churches of Aegypte was archbishop What manner off archbishoprick and gouernement this was may be gathered by that that Epiphanius saithe Miletius vvas archbishop likevvise and had the gouernement together vvith him And not that onely but that Miletius occupied the seconde place in the archbishopricke vvith Peter Wherby Epiphanius gyueth to vnderstande that there was the third and fourth and consequently as many archbishops as there were bishops off name and estimacion amongest them which beside their owne procured the good off other churches rounde aboute This is further confirmed in that Epiphanius as rendring the cause why he calleth Miletius Archbishop and to haue the seconde place after Peter saithe Miletius seemed to excell the other bishops in Aegypte And where yt is saide that Miletius vvas vnder peter yt is to be vnderstanded that he was vnder him in honor and not subiecte vnto him as vnto a commaunder or as to one which had dominion ouer him as yt shall appeare by the Councell off Nice after and as the discourse of Epiphanius storie plainely shewethe For where as betwene Peter and his adherentes off the one parte and Meletius and his felowes off the other being shut in in prison for testimonie off the trwthe there fell a controuersie abowte receiuing those which had fallen in time off persequution Peter as Epiphanius reporteth desired and made supplication vnto Miletius and the rest saying let vs receiue them and appoint them a penance And when he coulde not gaine his cawse by praier and supplication he spred owte a vaile in the middaste off the prison and proclaimed by a deacon that as manie as vvere off his syde ⪠shoulde come vnto him and those vvhich vvere off Melitius parte shoulde goe to him Wherupon a fevv ioined them selfes vnto him the greater nomber remaining vvhith Melitius In which counte off Epiphanius there is nether any autoritie or dominion pretended by Peter ouer the reste nor any subiection acknowledged off the other but there is to be seene contrariwise all felowlike behauiour of one towardes an other And onles this be the propertie of an Archbishop to be autor off a horrible schisme and rente in the churche whereas yt ys vaunted off him that he compoundeth schismes made by other ther appeareth nothing in Peter in that whole action Archbishoplike If the Answ say the prison was no place where he could exercise his archiepiscopall autoritie the replie is easie that he might as well exercise yt there as owt off prison For yt being a time off persequution he coulde vse no where any other constreint then by the ecclesiasticall censures and those hauing as appeareth a company with him in prison he might as well vse there as being at libertie Hitherto I trust hath appeared that there hath bene not so much as any footing or kold sent ether off archbishop or metropolitan suche as ours yt followeth to examin that owt off the Nicene Councell which bringeth the first tydinges of the Metropolitanes Where we hauing confessed that there were Metropolitanes denied that they vvere like ours how truly resteth to be considered First that which the Answ can most pretend owt off this Councell for iurisdiction off Metropolitanes ouer Bishops off the same Prouince is the bishop off Alexandria ovvght to haue povver ouer the bishops in Egypt Lybia and Pentapolis Thes are the sounding wordes and which carie the greatest noyse off Metropolitane autoritie Yf therfore it fall owt that thes wordes to haue power bring more shew in the eie then weight in the balance then the Answ is greatly fallen from his hope which thincketh to reape of this peace dominion off the Metropolitan ouer other bishops The wordes which the D. turneth to haue gouernement signifie in that place nothing but to g haue cheif dignitie or honour Which is apparant for that the same thing being attributed vnto Rome Antioch and other metropolitane churches is vttered by the word honorable revvard the same that dignitie in the next canon where be speaketh off the bishop off Ierusalem as it is also noted off Villerius where he confirmeth this signification off the word preeminence owt off Plato This may be further vnderstanded
set downe off the Ans He saith it is a poore refuge to discredite the autor I spared the autor casting part of the error vpoÌ the times wherin he liued which I proued corrupter and further from the truth left by thapostles by a reason which he could not so much as wrangle with althowgh as towching the proofe off an archbishop or bishop suche as ours I am content the Ans set vp his credit as much as he will. He saith there is no difference betwene Cyprians bisbop and Ieromes Seing he will needes haue it so let one measure be off both and therby I trust shall appeare off that which I haue spoken before that Ieromes bishop is lower by heade and shoulders then they for whom his autoritie is houlden owt Howbeit if in Cyprians time the bishop onely had not the laying on of handes and ordeining him that was chosen to the ministrie by the church but the Elders and he did nothing in his church or parish but vvith aduise of the Elders theroff yt appeareth that Ieromes bishop althowgh differing onely from an other minister in ordeining Elders and Deacons had somwhat encroched vpon the boundes off the presbitery more then Cyprians Lastly he saith for the corruption off times this kinde of bishop was deuised I willingly giue testimonie vnto those gouernours or at least the most off them that they had a good meaning in that inuention off man but that it was remedy against the corruptions I deny And to the reasons before alledged for proofe therof let this be added that euen from the first day wherin this deuise was established the corruption in the church was not deminished but grew and got strenght by litle vntill the whole face of the earth was couered and the power off darcknes in the fulnes off Antichristes kingdome wholy setled Likewise that the first resistance by any setled church against that corruption was by those which abolished that deuise off man and receiued the order in the Apostels times towching the equalitie off ministers As the Bohemians Merindoles the churches in Germany and Geneua whose standerd bearers as partly hath appeareth and more hereafter shall fowght against this stately dominion both of bishops and archbishops The next diuis I leaue to the readers iudgement referring him to that answered in the beginning In the next as one whose forehead is more hard then Adamant he shameth not still to affirme that this manner off bishop and archbishop was in the Apostles time notwithstanding the autor owt off whom he draweth his proofes confesseth that at the first there was no difference betwene a bishop and an Elder and that after it was decreed that in euery church one onely should haue the name of bishop Yf it were the first institution that they shoulde be one and the first institution be the Apostels institution it was the Apostels institution that they shoulde be all one yf the Apostels did reuoke this institution off theirs shewe their handes bringe forthe their euidence Ierome prouethe by diuers testimonies off scripture that a bishop and elder were one according to S. Paul. Therfore if the D. auoide this autoritie he must shewe vs the Apostels autoritie in writing for herin yt is trwe that the lawe saith matter of vvriting and recorde can not be auoided but by that of as high a nature He gathereth that this order of bishops and archbis was in thapostles times because there were schismes then I haue by this reason proued in an other place that thââe were no archbishops where if he had any thinge he should haue spoken And how is he bewitched which seeth not the wordes of his autor For when Ierome saith this came by custome he euidently declareth that ââ was not by determinacion of the Apostels The same declareth Augustin when he saith the office of a bishop vvas greater then off an other mynister as tovvching the names off honor throvvghe a custome off the churche vvhich novve hathe gotteÌ the vpper hand Likewise when Ierome saithe this preferment of the bishop is not by any necessitie of lavve but for that yt vvas graunted to honor him vvithall yt ys manifeste that yt was not by the Apostlels determinacion For yf yt had bene their institution yt had bene necessarie After admitting yt was after the Apostels he procedeth to answer Tertullian which saithe that ys true vvhich is first that ys false vvhich is later But how cometh yt to passe that he anwereth not that alledged owte off our Sauiour Christes e wordes which calleth the Pharisies vnto the firste institution that was belike to harde for him to byte vpon And the answer vnto Tertullian is absurde For he bringeth him in reasoning as he vseth that is prouing the thinge in controuersie by that a like doubtefull For if the rule of Tertullian extende yt selfe no further then vnto thinges he there speaketh of and in debate his reason is no reason but a giddie turne aboute wherin altowghe greate paines be taken yet there is no grownde gotten Wheras Tertullian proue the that Praxeas iudgement of our Sau. Christe was therfore naught because yt was new aÌd new because yt was not agreing with that gyuen by the scripture Moreouer his answer to the place presumeth that the gouernement off the churche is not a matter off faithe and saluacion which is the question And as for his Phantasies he resembleth my reason with they haue nothing like For beside that there were Christian magistrates baptisinges in churches coÌmunion ministred vnto more then 12 ⪠in thapostels times and off their alowance the Apostels neuer tawght that there should be no ChristiaÌ magistrates no baptisinges hut in riuers no eating off thinges strangled c. the contrary off all which they plainly taught ordeining onely that the Gentils should support the Iewes in strangled thinges abut they rawght that a bishop and traching elder be all one and neuer alowed that one Pastor shoulde take the name off a bishop from all his fellows within 40. myles compas The testimonie owt off Tertull maketh way for Montanus heresie wherof I haue spoken beforé Vnto the nexte diuis he answereth not For yt being plaine that the Apostels tawght that a bishop and elder were all one because he had nothinge to answer he leueth that and runnethe backe to that handled in the beginning off the equalitie off ministers As for the testimonie owte of Zuinglius firste yt is vntrw that the Anabaptistes obiecte this place againste Zuinglius which I haue pressed him with secondly yt is vntrue that they obiected vnto him in the like case which wee doo for in all their controuersies with him they haue not one of those pointes now debated And where he saith Tertullians wordes serue not because thes degrees are not againste the truth let him denie if he dare that this is the truth off God that a Bishop and an other minister off the word be all
one Then let him answer whether thes sayinges a bishop and an other minister off the word are all one a bishop and an other minister off the word be not all one be opposed and set one against an other If he can deny none off these then it ys iustly concluded that this inuention off man which hath made a bishop to differ from another mynister off the worde is againste the truth Because I loue not that compas off wordes which the D. delighteth in I concluded shortly and yet sufficiently to the vnderstanding off any that dothe not willingly blindefolde him selfe My argument ys The best deciding off controuersies vvas in the apostels time but that vvas not by archbishops vvherfore the best deciding of coÌtrouersies is not by archbishops for proofe that yt was not by archbis I set downe that there were no archebishops then Vnto this deformed face off reason as he calleth yt let vs see how formally he answereth Firste he saith we are not bounde to the forme of gouernemeÌt vsed by the Apostels and therin referreth him selfe to that he hath and shal saie where also let him take his answer Secondly that althowghe the Apostels had not the name off Archbishops yet they had the office which I haue shewed to be a shift of the Papistes Then yt is to be obserued how he proueth that thapostels had the office of an archbishop and in what good logicke Archbishops haue the direction off many churches the ending off controuersies c. the Apostles had the same therfore the Apostels were archbishops by this reason a man maie proue not onely diuers but contrary thinges to be all one seing contraries haue diuers thinges wherin they agree So that first this kinde off reasoning hath the fault of those ridiculous argumentes which the D. propoundeth pag. 316. secondly yt taketh for graunted which is the question For he presumeth that the Archbishops office kepeth the church in godly quietnes which is debated Thirdly to proue the Apostels autoritie in the churches which is not in question he hath made a greate muster of testimonies to proue the archbishops not a word After he cyteth Ambrose to proue that Apostles are bishops Yt is greate merueill if he kepe good order in the church for whose establishement the Answ is constreined thus to confound and make a broile off all and it is before confuted Howbeit admitting that the bishops succede vnto the Apostels in preaching the word and gouerning the church I haue shewed how that is a whip to driue the archbishop cleane owt of the church off god And this is here to be obserued that when it is saide the bishops succede vnto the Apostels c. that must be vnderstanded off the Apostles bishops and such as they instituted For what bishops haue better right to succede the Apostles then they But those were as I haue shewed bishops off singular congregations bishops which had no superiotitie ouer their fellowbishops as Ierome doth confesse In the end he saith If I can proue by good autoritie that one was gouernour amongest the 12. Apostles it shall not seme strange to haue an archbishop ouer a Prouince If vpon this that one had gouernement of 12. assembled in a particular place he can conclude that there should be one gouernour off the ministers in a Prouince I can with better reason conclude that there may be one to gouerne all the ministers in the worlde For if because one gouerned twelue therfore one may gouerne all in Prouince then becawse one may gouerne all in a Prouince I will conclude that one may gouerne all in the worlde As towching the number off those which are gouerned there is not so much difference betwene the ministers off a Prouince and the ministers off the whole church as betwene 12. and the ministers off some whole Prouince Towching the distance off place yt is as much betwene a Prouince and the wole extent off Christianitie as betwene a particular place off an acre breadeth and some Prouince Wherfore this reason is more fauorable to the Pope then to the Archbishop Peters superioritie shall be after seen where also this sentence of Ierome shall be answered Onely here let it be obserued that the Answ hath borowed this reason off Pope Anaclete which alledgeth it to proue Archbishops And it is browght also of Pighius against the protestantes which denied that there owght to be any archbishops as shall appeare herafter more at large The place off Caluin is handled afterward Bucers vpon the Ephes I haue answered That owt off his booke de Reg. Ch. the same in effect hath the same answer Howbeit it is here to be noted how the D. thorowgh greedy desire off seeming to say somwhat putteth downe with one hand that he setteth with the other For to the maintenance off the archbishop and bishop here be browght two testimonies one of Ierome thother of Bucer cleane contrary If Ierome say true that the superioritie off one Bishop ouer an other is by coustome not by institution off God then is that vntrue pretended out off Bucer that it pleased the holie goste yt should be so For if it be off the holie goste it is the institution of god The D. therfore must forgoe one off thes seing that both will neuer drawe in one forowgh The contrarietie with my self which the glosse chargeth me with is for that pag. 349. I saied owt off Eusebius that as long as thapostles liued if any vvent about to corrupt the doctrine they dit it in the darck and here owt off the Apostle I affirme there vvere heresies and schismes Wherin what contrarietie there is and what a trifler this is let the reader iudge sauing that if there were any contrarietie it is not mine with my self but Eusebius with the Apostle The Answ would gird vp his Archbishop in smaller roume that he might seme les growen owt off faschion He saith therfore the archbishop when a schisme or heresie riseth determineth yt according to the law established by the church Wherin he speaketh absurdly considering that the church can make no other rule wherby he may procede in decision off schismes and heresies then in referring him to the rule off the scripture So the summe off this answer is the Archbishop may not determin the matter at his pleasure but according to the word off god As thowgh the question were by what rule controuersies should be decided and not by whom For when the controuersie at Antioch was referred to the Apostles c. in Ierusalem it was not permitted vnto them otherwise to iudge off it then according to the word Now therfore let it be obserued how aptly the D. answereth To abatâ the swelling autoritie off the Archbishop I alledge that in deciding coÌtrouersies yt is not permitted to any one to determin vvhat is the vvill off God in that behalf The D. saith the archbishop must determin by the word off God.
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no Iâ perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be coÌsidered what a popish tyraÌnie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly aÌd learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commeÌ sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that conteÌtion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignoraÌce aÌd errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commeÌt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the coÌmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off meÌ may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
ministers preach and suppresse heresies so well thorowgh all the church as an archbishop in a Prouince I haue shewed that albeit one be graunted more impossible then the other yet this also is impossible which is sufficient to proue that in hand And that is here confessed when he is constreyned to lay one part off his dutie vpon his Suffraganes shoulders an other vpon his archdeacons c. All which if he be able to beare him self why doth he driue them vnto others Let the church at least be discharged off thes bourdens If not why hath he taken it vpon him Yf the Pope deserue condemnacion for taking more vpon him then he is able to doo the Archbishop and bishops which beare him companie in this point caÌ not be separated from it So this reason browght against the Pope standeth fast against them Moreouer as the Pope can not dispatch his matters in the whole churche so well as an Archbis in a prouince so can nether an Archbis in his Prouince so well as a bishop in his dioces nor he in his dioces so wel as in a particular coÌgregacioÌ doo the duties of a bishop So that this answer no more shutteth owt the Pope then the archbishop or lordly bishop But he saith the archbishop may haue conference with his archdeacons and Chauncelours which the Pope can not He seemeth to haue forgotten the conference by letters and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time so particular and precise off churches furtheste off him as if he had bene in the bosome off them which pointe Maister Tindall hathe well set forthe And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbishops conference vnto the good off our churche which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof And if conference by mouthe be necessary Rome is not so far but as it hathe bene so it maie be had For besydes that stories aforde vs diuers examples off churches which haue sowght the appeasing off their controuersies from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome the marchandrise off vnitie owght to be so precious that we shoulde not doubte to saile for yt vnto the Indes and Garamantes so that if there be suche a mysterie in the nomber of one to kepe vnitie the distance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche yf for no other cause yet for this that when the archbishops of whom hangeth forsoothe the churches peaââ are fallen owt there maie be some to accord them That as the mynisters haue lorde bishops and they tharchbishops so the archbishops might haue a Pope in reuerence off whose autoritie they might easelyer be conioined And in deede by so much more yt is necessary in this respect there should be a Pope ouer the archbishop then ether archbis ouer bishops or bishops ouer ministers as the reÌte and diuisioÌ in theÌ being cheif is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeste those in lower places For when schismes and heresies light amongeste them they spred so muche further as they with the arme and power off their autoritie are hable to flinge them further then the other The differences betwene the Pope and the archbishop serue but for stuffing for I excepted in my replie the corruptions off doctrine and yow owght to haue vnderstanded that superiority of one bishop ouer all in the catholike churche chosen by consente doothe not necessarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god c. Yow should therfore haue made yowr coÌparison betwene an vniuersall Bishop chosen and not breaking in violently meinteining the truthe and not fighting againste yt c. Vnto that I alledged that thinges passing by voice in the churche of Alexandria the distinction off bishop from the reste off the elders in the church there might come in vvithovvte Saint Marckes consente he saithe nothing And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde so faine that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time yet he shall neuer obteine this that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge onles he will saie the Apostells and Apostolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time in euery singular congregacion Vnto that I saide the vvordes from Saint Marcke maie be taken rather exclusiuely to shut ovvte S. Marke he answereth that none off iudgement will graunte that where notwithstanding he that hath anie iudgement doth easely vnderstande that the wordes haue manie times that significacioÌ and that they are so here I am coÌtent it be tried by the other reasons propounded I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that distinction because he making those thinges diuers vvhich the holy Gost made one should make the storie he vvrote suspected He answereth yt ys certeine thes were no otherwise distinguished then the holy gost appointed them which I haue shewed how shameles yt ys Then that my collection is vngodly to imagine so off the gospell written by the Euangeliste As yff I did not in plaine wordes deteste all suspicion of the vntrwthe off that Gospell and therfore caste awaie his false surmise which might gyue occasion theroff He saith therby appeareth at the least that yt was auncient I denie not but yt is manifeste also that ther were other corruptions in some places of the churche as aunciente The Answ as his coustome is taketh his pleasure off me because vpon the wordes off Ierome this coustome vvas at Alexandria I gather that yt was not in other places As if yt were not manifeste that Ierome noteth where yt began and if it had beginning at Alexandria yt was there when yt was not in other churches If it had had further passage at that time Ierome should haue doone yt iniurie in coÌcealing yt For it would haue made much for the credite off that distinction Which I alledging in the next diuis the Ans saith nothing vnto Nether is there anie so rude an idiote which knowethe not that a notable or vnwonted thinge saide off one man place or time is spoken emphatically and excludeth all other But as the D. will not vnderstande a generall proposition vnles yt haue the signe all or euerie before yt so he will not vnderstande that any thinge is appropriat vnto another vnles yt haue thes wordes onely alone c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his insultations seing Ierome in saying that this coustome gat grounde by litle and lytle declareth the trwth of my collection And where he answereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieste and bishop that the bishop is a prieste but not contrariwise he first answereth not to the argumeÌt For this is not to be confounded when off two thinges one is verified of the other but thother can not returne and be verified of his fellow Secondly his answer is ouerthrowne by his exposition of the place of
bishop all men see that in taking Ierome by the lips withowte considering his meaning the contrary off that the D. gathereth doth folowe that euery minister is a bishop but not euery bishop a minister For that which is conteined vnder an other is more particuler and les then that vvhich dothe conteine as because the kinge is conteined in the magistrate therfore euerie Kinge is a magistrate but not euerye magistrate a Kinge And albeit yt be no meruaile althowghe he which striueth with the trwth shoulde be stricken with suche a guiddines off spirite that he shoulde not be hable to discerne not onely betwene the morning and noone daies but not between noone daies and midnight yet because the smattering in logick which this booke maketh shew of might be so much as not to be so grossely abvsed in casting with my selfe wherfore he shoulde alledge this in the ende yt came to my minde that by thes wordes the elder is conteined in the bishop he woulde haue vnderstanded that the elder is conteined vnder the bishops gouernement If he meane so there is as great ouersight in his grammer as before in logicke ogicke considering that the toung as I suppose will bare no such sense certeine ys that the autor will not suffer yt For he assigneth as reason why thapostle did not speake of the elder for that an elder is conteined in the bishop and therfore speaking of th one he needed not to speake of thother Wheras if he should meane that he would not speake of an elder because he was in the gouernement off the bishop to order as he thowght good yt had bene a witles saying vnworthy of Ierome considering that thapostle speaketh of a deacon which is vnder a bishop Which shall be answer to his like dealing with Chrysostome That Ierome speaketh of an archdeacon in that place I haue before declared But the D. asketh why I went about to deface Ierome if he nether make for our ether bishop or archbishop for that there coulde be no other cause but this I haue shewed that I saued him his due and conuenient honor the cause why I gaue the reader warning to trie him by the rule off the worde off God was because he seemeth in some places to alowe that distinction off bishop from an elder which is diuers from the institution off the Apostell After he setteth downe his places oftén before repeted and asketh whether I thincke those meÌte of euerie pastor in his parishe I haue shewed how althowghe vpon occasions before recited there were not in euery congregacion at that time a bishop yet there were in diuers he saith further that the pastor in euery congregation from the beginning had his autoritie ouer his flocke withowte anie suche constitution I graunte he had his antoritie but not so soueraigne as after he obteined by this euill custome considering that he had an equall parte of gouernement with those ioined with him in the administracion off the churche And this althowghe yt be debated betwene vs yet the D. frameth his answer as thowghe there were no suche thinge For albeit for the moste parte there were no moe pastors theÌ one in a parishe yet there were moe elders And albeit Ier. speake of those elders which had the ministerie of the word yet ââat excludeth not those which were onely for gouernement Where he saith moreouer the care of the whole flock was committed vnto him I see not how he can conclude therof that the bishop was ouer a whole diocese suche as ours yt might rather be concluded that he had charge off one onely congregation considering that althowghe him selfe alone were thowght hable to care for one congregacion yet there is none which would thinck him self alone able to care for a whole dioces And beside that the churches should be in miserable case if none should care for theÌ but euery bishop in his dioces let the D. stretch owt the bishops iurisdiction as far as he can yet I haue shewed owt off the Emperours letters to the bishop of Alexandria that the elders off the same church where he abode had aioynt care with him ouer all Which is also confirmed by the testimonie the Ans hath alledged owt off M. Fox where not the bishop onely but his church also is saied to haue the ouersight off the precinctes which perteined vnto him And Ierome him self shewing that the elders ovvght to gouerne in commen vvith the bishop can not be thowght to giue vnto the bishop the whole care of the church as peculiar vnto him alone onles a man will make him contrary to him self For if they haue the gouernement in coÌmen with him they haue the care in coÌmen for somuch as there can be no gouernement withowt care So that where Ierome saith the care off the whole churche was coÌmitted vnto one yt must be vnderstanded so as yt may be leuell with his other saying especially wheÌ he saith that a bishop differed from his elder onely in ordinacioÌ Which may appeare by the practise off the churches about the time wherin Ierome wrote For it was ordeined that the bishop should not iudge off any matter but in presence off his clergie if othervvise his sentence should be voide Wherby appeareth that an other canon permitting the iudgement off subdeacons and other inferior orders vnto the bishop alone must be vnderstanded alone withowt other bishops not withowt other assistance Which is also cleare considering that the Councell opposeth the decision off their cawses vnto that off elders and deacons which was to be doon by six and three bishops beside the bishop off whom they were accused This gouernement in commeÌ appeareth also in that vvhen one off the clerckes vvould goe ether to the vvidovves or virgines he must haue as vvell the leaue off the elder as off the bishop Likewise that it was ordeined that the deacon should acknovvledge him self as vvell the minister vnto the elder as to the bishop Here it is also to be obserued what that ordinacion was wherin onely the bishop differed from the elder how poore a thing For beside that it can not be vnderstanded off the election which was commen to him with the people and the eldership yt was decreed that vvhen there vvas a bishop to be ordeined tvvo bishops should hould the booke ouer his heade one other bishop should pronounce the blessing aÌd the rest of the bishops vvith thelders present should all lay on their handes So that ether there was an other order at Rome theÌ is here appointed or els the bishops preeminence was onely to pronounce the blessing and hould the booke the elder hauing as good right to lay on his handes as he Where he saith his place against the Luciferanes with an other owt off his epistle is more cleare he bringeth no reason at all nether are there any wordes to enforce that Onles by church one vnderstand dioces or Prouince such as ours
which I haue shewed to be far from the vse of those times or onles we graunt that there can be no schismes nor heresies in a particular congregacion wherof there is to good experience or that yt is impossible there should be many elders in one church which I haue declared and shall God willing declare further to be vntrue I saie onles thes proue an archbishop or a lorde bishop there is nothing in those wordes off Ierome And yet the D. that he may helpe his weake reasons with stronge wordes muste vppon thes conclude yt impossible to expounde Ieromes wordes otherwise then off bishop or archbishop such as ours Where he concludeth vpon that the elders chose one amongeste them whom they made bishop as the captaine is chosen of the the soldiars that therfore the bishop was ouer diuers congregations there is no likelyhood off reason And where to giue yt some he threapeth twoo thinges at my hande the one that this worde elder signifieth onely a minister off the worde thother that euery minister of the worde had his seuerall flocke he doothe but dalie For he knoweth well that I hould that the worde elder reacheth to such as gouerne onely and that there were in diuers congregations more then one which preached the word of god Where he saith those which I call obscure villages were litle cyties suche as with vs Ely or Peterborowgh I leue it to the reader to iudge how muche I haue therin squared from Erasmus who calleth them peeuish litle Tovvnes Where he saith he callethe them base cities I am contente the reader take which he liketh beste For bothe in proper speache can not be trew for to cal a towne and a litle towne and a peuishe lytle towne a citie is not for any thinge I know wonted Howbeit I will not here striue yt is sufficient that I haue shewed that there were bishops in other places which were no cities And euen in this the D. letteth fall the Popes decree which he defendeth in an other place which forbiddeth as well to place bishops in base and small cities as in vplandishe townes And albeit the D. be not hable by thes wordes of Ierome nor by any other which he hathe browght to proue that the bishop had any further reache then vnto one onely churche yet forsomuche as yt is not here question off the victorie but off trwth nor what the Ans is hable to proue but what maye be proued I will not denie but in Ieromes times the bishops vpon occasions before off me alledged had enlarged their boundes in suche sorte that there were certen congregacions which belonged to their ouersight and wherof they were called bishops But I appele first to the institution off God and vse of the purer times after the Apostles and then I answer that a dioces was not the twentith part of that which they haue now As appeareth by that alledged before owt of the Councels and by that Ierome saith that their elders vnder them gouerned in commen vvith them which they coulde not haue doon onles they being hard by had made one bodie with them For nether could the bishop doo any thing in his congregation withowt the elders nor they in theirs withowt him but they made one Senate amongest them The practise wherof is yet to be seen in certein reformed churches ⪠where the elders off certein small parishes round abowt make one bodie off Senate with the elders off the principall towne meeting together once at the least euery week Sauing that they haue altogether abolished that euill coustome which wrong the name of bishop from all the rest vnto one and graunted the ordinacion to him alone there being one amongest them which hath onely this aboue the rest when they assemble together to propound matters gather the voices giuethe exhortations and that also for a time and not during his ministerie I haue shewed that the argument wherwith the Ans would off a bishop conclude an archbishop and off one ouer a dioces one ouer a whole Prouince is too bad and it is not here to be repeted This place requireth to shew that albeit the Metropolitan was now receiued in the East partes yet ether he was not in the most partes off the weast where Ierom was or Ierome did not acknowledge him Wherin I will first propound my argumentes and after answer to his obiections And firste euen with the selfe same places he would proue tharchbishop is he ouerturned as of that againste the Lucifer For if it be certein which I haue shewed that Ierome speaketh off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his precincte and plaine by Ieromes wordes that the autoritie he speaketh off there is suche as not onely hath no superior but no mate yt muste folow that aboue the bishop which Ierome propoundeth there can be no archbishop Againe where he affirmeth that the bishop elder and deacon vnder the gospell are in the same place that Aron his sonnes and the Leuites were vnder the law yt maie be concluded that forasmuch as euerie bishop in his charge hathe the same autoritie Aaron had and yt is certeine that there was no ecclesiasticall autoritie ouer Aaron therfore by Ierome there owght to be none aboue the bishop in euery churche Moreouer vpon that he saith that all bishops succede vnto the Apostels yt maie be reasoned forsomuch as the bishops haue the places off the Apostels in their seuerall churches and it certeine that the Apostels had no dominion one ouer an other but equall autoritie ⪠as bothe hath bene and shall be God willing further shewed that bishops owght not to haue anie bishop to whom they owght to be subiecte Beside this speaking off the orders in the churche in his times he reckenethe vp deacons archdeacons elders archelders and bishops If there had bene any Archbishops where heÌ was or he had alowed of anie there coulde neuer haue bene so fit a place to haue spoken off him considering that his purpose was to shew those degrees which were Seing therefore he maketh no mention off him yt is apparant that there was none or that he alowed off none Moreouer he putteth this difference betwene the Montanistes and the Catholikes that Catholikes had their bishops as the successors off thapostels gyuing vnto them the firste place but the montaniste heretikes had in the firste and cheifest place Patriarches in the seconde certeine vvhich they called Cenones so that the Bishop with them occupied but the thirde Now if the bishop was the higheste degree in the catholike churche and if to haue a Patriarche which the D. saith is all one with a Metropolitane and Archbishop ouer the bishop was in Ieromes iudgement worthie off this reproche I leaue yt to the readers iudgement what was Ieromes opinion off the office off an Archbishop and whether the same blot which he marked in the rowte off Montanistes be not in our churche where there is aboue
Wherby also foloweth that where the popular estate or the rule of the beste beareth swaie they can not althowghe they vvould haue an archbishop yea herupon foloweth that ether the Canterbury or Yorke archbishop muste leese his head For yt is concluded off his highe diuinitie that as there is but one prince in the whole Realme so there muste be but one Archbishop His reason the Prince can not els be supreme gouernour off all estates and causes ecclesiasticall to say no more is senseles and hath no knot with that wherunto yt belongeth As if vvhen Roome had both Emperours and consules the Emperour could not be cheife gouernour off the consuls because the Consuls were equall amongest themselues I confessed yt vnconuenient that there should be one Caesar ouer the worlde but that yt may be he alledgeth Caluin that yt is moste absurd to what pourpose what contrarietie is here yt is enowghe for me that there may be and that lawfully a Prince of larger extent of dominion then the archbishop of his archbishopricke althowghe the prince vvould graunte yt him which vtterly ouerthroweth his cause and this being alledged off me afterward is clean passed by For his defense consisteth in this that the Popes widenes off iurisdiction ouer churches ys vnlawfull because he hath yt not of the gifte off Princes and in this that the externall gouernement of the church must be according to the forme and kinde off gouernement in the commen wealth Which is also manyfestly confuted there whence he hath borowed this temony For there he addeth that althowgh yt were graunted that there might be one Caesar ouer all the worlde yet yt followeth not that there may be one bishop ouer all the churches which notwithstanding muste needes folowe if the externall gouernement off the church muste be according to that forme and kinde off gouernement vsed in the commen wealth a For the distinction which supposeth certein ministers of the word and SacrameÌtes onely and certein to haue to gether with the administration off them the gouernemente also I refer the reader to that before written his vaine cauil that I desire to be vncontrolled off any but off God is answered The D. accuseth me off falsehood for that I charge bim with citing Augustine and Crysostome at large Towching Augustine that he vvas so alledged appeareth firste pag. 583. and both he and Chrysostom pag. 296. Where he saith he vsed that large quotacion onely once in Muscul Cyril and M. Fox he coulde hardly doo yt oftner in the two laste considering that as I remember he alledgeth them once onely but towching Muscul beside the place I charge him with he lefte his aduersary twise to his wide worckes Where he remembreth not that he sendeth to any other writers but with places quoted as particularly as he could his memory vvhich is so miraculouse at other times is here but miserable To helpe yt beside this place off Cal. he sendeth to his Institutes vvithowt any further restreinte as appeareth pag. 132. againe pag. 74. in his former booke for he hath quoted yt in this later Likewise that Damasus calleth Stephen Archdeacon withowt any direction pag. 344. Also alledgeth Gratian Polidore Volateran vvithowte any restreinte 589. pa. I omit that he sendeth towardes th end off his booke to the large feilde off godly interpreters that diuers times he gyueth the booke onely where he might gyue the chap. the chap. onely where he mighte giue the section all which are contrary to that he setteth downe Wherby may appeare what a hard mouth he hath and howe I speake sparingly off this kinde off allegation off his Charged heere by his fonde allegacion off Cal. Institut he answereth I knew there were sundry editions I did so but whether yt be absurd that he should leaue both the beste and moste vsual to take that which is worse and in the handes of fewe onles he mente to play vnder the boorde that men should not vnderstand I leaue to the readers iudgement His reason he had noted yt laboured it and was acqainted with yt is very simple For is yt meete that because he had made his booke a litle heuier with yncke he should be wedded so to yt as to neglecte the commen commoditie how he is acquainted with yt I knowe not but I trust yt hath and shall appeare that there is no more frendship betwene him and his booke in thes matters then betwene light and darknes But yt is foly to reason with him for he addeth Doctorlike that he both hath and will so vse yt still Howbeit how cometh yt to pas that euen in his former booke he hath alledged the later edition belike ether that was some tributary allegacion or els the latter was better to him there then his noted one Howe vniustly he chargeth me with vncerteine direction in ether all or the moste off thes he setteth downe I leaue to be iudged off that I haue said in that behalfe The reste off this diuis with the nexte is nothing but bare and bould affirmacions reproches and repetitions The nexte to it hath nothing but trifling and vnlerned questions before answered That set downe off the inconuenience off many speaking together according to the prouerbe many may sing but not speake at once is not as he saith needles but made way to the necessitie of hauing one which otherwise equal should haue some preheminence in that action The next hath nothing but railing wordes with repetition off repetitions and that beside the matter considering that the cautions I put off the moderator in the assembly off ministers I put not as alwais obserued off the D. Bishops and Archbishops but as those which owghte to be In asking scripture for proofe he dalieth seeking for that he would not find as the scholer the rod he must be beaten with The cocke a glorious and proud birde which will not suffer his victorie to be hidden but proclameth yt forthwith by crowing yet if he be ouercome hideth him selfe Wherin he sheweth a great deale more modestie then the D. which althowgh he haue neuer a spur of argument ether to defend him self or to offend his aduersary yet croweth as high as if the maistrie were in his hande But let yt goe let vs see his fighte To that I alledgrd of Peter chosen by the other Apostels to moderate the two firste actions notwithstanding yt be not set downe he answereth yt is wicked to grounde thalteration of the archbishop and our bishops gouernemente continued long and practised in the beste times of the church withowt yea contrary to the ground off scripture The long continuance onles they haue salte off the worde off God to preserue them argueth they be rotten and suche as caste an euill sauour That they were not in the beste times off the church hath before appeared whether yt haue ground owte off the worde that Peter was chosen by the Apostels
althowgh yt be not expressed yt may partly appeare by that disputation vppon 20 Math. for if all the Apostels were lefte of our Sauiour Christe in equall autoritiâ ⪠ether Peter tooke that vppon him withowt callinge or els he receiued yt off the Apostels But the firste is confessed vntrw therfore yt hath grounde off the word off God that Saint Peter was chosen off the Apostels vnto the presidentship in those actions And as yt hath bene shewed owte off S. Mathew 20. that none off them was higher then other so off S. Peter yt appeareth particularly in that he and S. Iohn were sent by the colledge of the Apostels wheras if he had bene made cheife by our Sauiour and that from the ascention vnto his dying daie yt had not bene lawfull for the Apostels by making him their Embassadour to haue made him inferior to the resâdâw I know what the Papistes answer in this poincte but the D. bancke being discouered I thincke he will chaunge his creditors Where he saith yt is contrary to scripture because S. Peter 2. Act. so soudenly defended the Apostels againste the accusation off dronkennes as he coulde not tary for their voices it is ridiculous For I would know first what testimonie of scripture he hath to proue yt doon so soudenly Then who is so sensles as not to vnderstand that the eleuen standing with him could not in a trice ether by voice or finger lifted vp caste that charge off speaking then vpon Peter so that onles he did as it were take the Iewes wordes owte off their mouth no time could wante for that matter He saith further Act. the 1 and 15. considered yt shal appeare allwaies Peters office to speake firste and rule the action and that he was at no time chosen therto by voices much les at euery particular meeting which first is a grosse petition off that in question Then if wee were not hable to shewe by the worde that our S. Christe did not apoincte Peter cheife off the reste yet by what ether sentence or worde owte off the scripture is he hable to shewe that he was appoincted gouernour by him ouer all the reste during his liffe Thirdly to leaue Actes 15. disorderly alledged which is to be handled in the very nexte diuision let him shew vs how he can proue that S. Peter was cheif in that actioÌ of praier where yt ys said that all the Apostles lifted vp their voice likewise in the election of the deacons where the calling together off the disciples the exhortacion vnto them the praier for the Deacons chosen the laying on off handes is as indifferently giuen to all the reaste as to Peter All know that one conceiued the praier in the name off the reste that one was president in the election But that that was Peter more then ether Iohn or Iames or any the reste can not be shewed by one title off scripture yet our D. doth assure vs and as he saith owt off the scripture that Peter was the lodesman Where I shew that to suppose Peter not chosen by the Apostels to take vpoÌ him the gouernmeÌt is to doo him iniury he answereth he was appointed vnto yt off God and lawfully As if to be appointed off God and lawfully could not stand with the Apostels chusing of him or their electioÌ were not the electioÌ of god For if he meane he was chosen to yt by Christe imÌediatly it is that in question wherof he bringeth not a lettre of proofe But this iudgemeÌt offmine hath no ground off scripture or ether learned or auncient autoritie What ground off scripture I haue let the reader iudge off that already and to be alledged in the next diuis For autoritie I haue shewed that Musculus whom he hath made his pillor in this behalfe affirming that Peter vvas in many places the cheife is againste him which saith he was alwaies cheife and for me as giuing therby to vnderstand that this cheiftie varied and was sometimes put vpon other Which is also confirmed by Caluin who in saying the Apostels gaue this vnto Peter for the moste parte that he should speake firste confirmeth both that he had his preheminence off the Apostels and that he had yt not alwaies Secondly I haue here alledged the Scoliaste that all vvas doone by commen consente Wherto he answereth he saith not Peter was at euery assembly chosen cheife which is vaine For if all were doone with consente then Peters forespeaking a parte of that which was done was likewise What wil he say to Gratian his good expounder which in this cause is more fauorable then the Papistes he hath folowed which fetch Peters cheifdome from our Sau. Christe for he confesseth that Peter vvas chosen by the Apostles Wher owte off the scoliaste I shewed that this presidentship off Peter vvas not doone imperiously vvith dominion or povvre he answereth no lawfull iurisdiction not of the king him selfe is so Which smelleth off Anabaptistrie and is before confuted For if the vvorde imperiously vvhich I vsed be taken often in euill parte yet may not I beseche yow a Prince doe princelike vvhich is the vvorde the Scoliast vseth may not the higher power doo thinges vvith powre both vvhich the Scoliaste denieth to haue bene done of Peter But there is in superioritie humilitie If you meane that Princes muste be humbly minded I graunte but yf you meane that humilitie in Princes will not suffer to commaund Princelike in thinges lawfull I denie yt He addeth that in rule and autoritie meaning ciuill there is seruitude If he meane to the lorde I graunte and then yt is nothing to the pourpose If that Kinges are seruantes vnto their peoples which onely can haue place here I denie yt for the cause before assigned Where wee see againe how the D. as if he led Princes in a stringe maketh them to beare vp my Lorde Archbishops traine For seing he seeth yt denied him to rule princelike or with powre for shifte off answer he wresteth the scepter owte of their hand saying the king him selfe may not doe so yf the Scoliast had said that Peter did nothing tyrannically nothing with oppression which two are aswel denied vnto Princes as to bishops then the D. answer would haue serued But when he saith he did nothing princelike nothing by povvr yt is manifest he tawght that the rule lawfull in Princes ouer their subiectes was not meete for Peter ouer the other Apostels Where he addeth the Scoliaste saith Peter rose c. as one that had receiued the Presidentship of the Apostels to let pas his translation which in steed off disciples vnderstanded of all the church hath put Apostles which was peculier then to the 11. he doth but daly For I deny not that Peter had receiued yt but that he had yt giuen off our Sau. Christe immediatly or during his liffe both which are in controuesie there is not a worde Where in the entrance
off this diuis he saith Peter was in all such assemblies the cheife and in an other place he was the cheife in euery matter and for proufe saith the moste off the old ecclesasticall writers in that respecte counte him cheife of the Apostels yt had bene good he had shewed at the leaste one I coÌfesse that there are ould writers which call him so but that they doo yt in that respecte I denie for the cheifty they giue him ouer the reste was for his singular zeale and other giftes not as he saith for that he had autoritie ouer them For proofe wherof I will propound him firste that Peter was Prince of the Apostels as Plato was of the Philosophers likewise that he was Prince off the Apostels as Moses Helias Dauid Isay off the Prophetes Now if Plato were ruler or had the commaundement off other Philosophers or if Moses of the Prophetes that cam after his death then Peter also might haue the same ouer the Apostels but if they be therfore so called because they excelled the reste in giftes then yt is cleare that thes fathers estemed not Peter chiefe for any powre or autorny ouer the reste An other saith Peter vvas that the reste off the Apostels vvere off like not office onely but honour and povvre directly contrary to D. vvhere he preferreth Peter in honour and contrary to that he both here and pag. 68. althowghe not in the same in wordes yet indeed doth affirme Thirdly it is to be noted that heere the D. hande is againe with Harding againste the bishop to whom alledging that Peter had powre ouer the reste off the Apostels the bishop answereth Peter vvas chiefe off the APostels as Aristippus is called chiefe off Philosophers that is the firste or beste man off the company where he denieth that S. Peter was ether lord or Prince or had povvre or vvas gouernour ouer the reste off thapostels He addeth from this opinion that Peter in all such assemblies and in all matters moderated the reste was chiefe and spake first the late writers dissent not If he meane the Papistes I graunt if the Catholike he bringeth not nor as I thincke can bring so much as one which saith so Here he hath the bishop againste him to whom may be added Caluin Bullinger Beza Gualter with others Wher I shew that Iames ruled the action Act. 15. and not Peter considering that he pronounced the sentence vvherunto the rest agreed he saith first that Peter spake before the reste which is vntrew for there was great disputacion off both sides before Peter spake ⪠therfore yt muste needes be that the cawse was propounded by some before And so yt is friuolous he alledgeth owt off Caluin to proue Peter proloquutor for that he stoode vpon this especially that he mighte declare thestate of the question as yf the Apostels Synode were so confused that a great parte of it was spente or euer the company were informed of the state off the question Wheras Caluin meaneth that S. Peter confirmed pithely the trwth in that question and not that he trauailed to shew wherin the question consisted as appeareth by Peters whole oration So that Saint Peters oration is firste set downe not for that he spake firste but for that he was the first amongeste the Apostels and Elders which S. Luke thowght good to commit to writing It is also childish that Peter was moderator because he spake after there was great disputacion as if euery one which cometh betwene two parties striuing to draw theÌ to concord hath autoritie ouer them considering that ther is not a worde in Peters oration which giueth the least ynckling off suche autoritie beside that to helpe him selfe he shamfully slaundreth the Apostels Synode attributing vnto yt a tumult and bitter contention where S. Luke saith onely greate disputacion which may well be withowt both Whether yt be custome off Synodes for the moderator to speake laste and so to ponounce the sentence gathered vpon the former voices I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader referring him also to that the bishop writeth in this behalfe who proueth against Harding which will haue Peter cheife that Iames vvas chief because he gaue the definitiue sentence Wherby also appeareth that this came ether from Pigghius or Harding or from some suche popishe fen After admiting Iames Moderator he faithe being then bishop by the Scoliastes iudgement yt was not vnmeete he should be moderator within his charge I haue shewed that an Apostle can not be changed into a bishop and if he coulde yet yt was vnmeete that S Peter should leefe his right wherto he saith he was ordeined off God to vse from thascention vnto his dying day Therfore it is against him directlie but how against me he nether doth nor caÌ shew Beside it is absurde that an Apostle shoulde giue place vnto a bishop because the bishop is in his charge considering that an Apostle is in his charge in what churche soeuer he come and that as an Apostle to whom the bishop vnlesse he were by consent chosen to gouerne the synode owght to giue place And if yt be trew that it is meete the bishop of the place where the synode is houlden should gouerne the synode why hath he made this before a necessarie cause off hauing an archbishop to gouerne Synodes The other place off the Actes makethe for this matter For if Iames assembled the lders and ruled that meeting wherin it was determined what S. Paule should doo him selfe being present which was as shall appere in nothing inferior vnto Peter he might by the same right moderate the assemblie in Peters presence Where I shew that this is the superioritie which is amoÌgest bishops and ministers he answereth yt is so but not all But owt of the scripture wheroff the question is here he neither doth nor can shew other superioritie so that here his cause faleth flat Wher I alledged Maister Caluin that one off the Apostles indefinitelie not any one singular person had the moderation off the rest he answereth owt off him that it vvould not be absurde if vve confesse that the Apostels gaue preheminence vnto Peter Which is but daliaunce For he affirmeth simply that our Sauiour Christ meant nothing lesse then to make Peter cheife off the reste off the Apostels Here Hauing proued that Peter vvas nothing els but one of the tvvelue that he vvas equall vnto them their fellowe not their lord that they had as muche povver ouer him as he ouer them he disputeth that if it were graunted which the Papistes require off Peters being Prince off the Apostles which he vtterlie deniethe yet yt followethe not which they would conclude off a Pope Likewise he daliethe in shewing what autoritie the Consull off Rome and masters of Colledges haue adding that tharchbishop is content with lesse Where Caluin compareth the moderator in the ministers meeting with the
nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule that Timothe was ordeined by imposition off handes off the companie off elders Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder because S. Paule vvilleth Timothe not to rebuke an elder to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office which is spoken of an elder by yeares and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man and after off the elder woman So I leaue to be estemed what good cause the D. hath to couer his face in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth The next diuision is answered In the next I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie the causes yea the examples off a thinge setteth him selfe to proue that it was Althowgh if this be his trim order he hath kept it euill for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first comethe after Ierome which is browght to beare vp his seconde That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely I haue shewed and therfore the wordes ouer all pressed off the D. as they are off Pigghius from whence this was taken are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche Besides the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde then off a diocese or prouince for the reason assigned in my former booke That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned and deacons is confessed yf he were aboue the teaching elders that was by custome whether good or bad let it be iudged off that said Howbeit that that be graunted yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese muche lesse an Archbishop When the bishop in euerie church or to speake as the D. in euerie diocese was the Cheife aboue whom there coulde not by this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop for therby he affirmeth that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe yet there might be an other higher then he Also how fonde he is in his reason that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop therfore Ignatius allowing one allowethe the other When yt is manifest by his owne confession that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops either of one particular church as the trwthe is or off one diocese as he imagineth So that his argument is Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops therfore the Archbishop all one as if a man should say he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate therfore a whale fishe The D. detected in that Iustins president was neither bishop off diocese nor Archbishop off Prouince but of one congregation for excuse saith he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers Where first his trim order that all my logicke and Rhetoricke is not able to moue is too pitifull for how childishe is yt after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese and tharchbishop of a Prouince in the ende to endeuour to proue that ther may be superioritie as if any man would denie this that graunted the other and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer yet I would know off him what meanethe the word this wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before and imÌediatelie after Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren not taken for the gouernours but the people obserue how vainly he answerth that Iustine meant the ministers and deacons by brethren because he calleth the people after by the name off people As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture aÌd other writers by diuerse names Thirdly how if it be graunted that Iustins presideÌt had superioritie ouer the minister yet how fondly yt is concluded that yt is lawfull because yt was Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza haue alwaies their edge towarde him and his cause For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste and had the name off bishop which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie as is declared Lastly how by this answer he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen which before he tooke from him when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word and samentes only Iustines writinges compared as I compared them with the holie scripture are as I said a ditche I added the reason that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors which the D. could not answer otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie and learned Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus which Iustines president did which was meete considering he had a higher ministerie then any there So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop kept that presidentship continually during his abode yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other should take that vpon him Yf he were the true Ignatius he should in dede be before Iustin but to let passe other exceptions withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer that vaine boaste off being able to expound the orders off Angells their varieties the distinctions and differeÌces betwene vertues powers Thrones c. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell is towched after that the names proper to our S. Christ can be coÌmunicated with man is absurd and before confuted where also the name off Prince a peace off Prince off Priestes is shewed vnfit fer the ministery That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops as there is one bishop ouer pastors hathe no parte trw as hathe bene shewed onely let yt be noted that the reason here for the Archbishop is Hardinges for the Pope This argument browght before and after to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction that one had care of the whole Prouince here is pursued wherunto I answer here that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction or rule ouer that cared for seing that there is no minister I might haue said also no magistrate yea no priuate membre which owght not to haue and shew forthe a care off all the churches which are in Christendome euery one according to the meanes which
the lord hath giuen The Prince with his power the minister with his conforte and instruction the priuate man with the wealthe God hath blessed him withe at the least with his praier the communion off sainctes and fellowfeeling in the members off one bodie requiring this Hereoff we haue example in Aurelius which saith he had care off all churches Bouins a Popishe friar or Monke I well remembre not whether tawght in this point in the same schole with the D. in esteming that care off churches implied rule least the bishop off Rome should be hurte by that speache expoundeth all churches all in Affricke Our D. h alledging this place because in taking care in his sence for rule with authoritie he should in trauailing with the Archbishop haue browght vs forth a Pope in steede off all churches putteth many churches so that he wil neuer want for if his places be to streite for his Archbishops measure he settethe them vpon the teinter hookes if to wide he laiethe them in water and shrinkethe them But what shoulde I stand in confuting this seing yt is so farr off that care prouethe rule and dominion that it is sene not onely in one equall ouer an other but euen in seruantes ouer their masters As for that that is said Chrysostomes care restreined here to certeine places can not be vnderstanded off suche a generall care as comprehendeth all churches I answer that the care off his owne churche being properly commended vnto him it is mete that as the churches next doo most affecte his bettering it commonly yf they be good making yt worse if they be nawght so in that generall care ouer the rest ther should be suche dispensation as to haue a greater care ouer those then ouer the rest as we see in wise Princes more carefull off the borderers then off those further remoued from them In which degre yt is not vnproperlie spoken that he had the care off suche churches rather then off all His foure notes owt off Theodoret depend vpon these wodes the same care so that yf yt fall owt that Chrysostome had not the same rule ouer Thracia Asia c. which he had ouer Constantinople then those wordes spoken off the gouernement he had in that citie are idle to proue the same in Thracia c. But first the D. crieth owt of corruption crafte and either ignorance or malice good wordes Maister D. I pray yow For ignorance yt is no greate matter I am content yow say that I borowed two greeke wordes off my neighbours But why corruption c did I not set downe wordes sufficient to confute your vntrew dealing which in stede of care put downe rule was I bownd to set downe more in greke then yow surmised in Englishe yea could I haue set downe the worde yow require with any sence vnto the reader vnles I had set downe as yow now the whole story and so haue giuen your cause greater coulour then your selfe knew of then I helpe yow diuerse times with argumentes which yow make much of but will yow binde me to do so alwaies I haue more coulour to crie out of yow which to proue Chrysostome gouernour of these places voluntarily cite Socrates trippinglie vvinding vp in thes wordes et caetera vvhich is your ruine and which manifestly confuteth the largenes yow suppose off the bishop off Consiantinoples metropolitaneship Therfore seing this bitternes must be vented yow at least should haue waited some better opportunitie now let vs see vvhether these wordes he had the same care ouer Thracia c that he had ouer the churche off Constantinople vvill intitle Chrisostome lawfully to as great authoritie ouer one as ouer the other For the discussing vvheroff I must by thy good leaue gentle reader fetche this matter somewhat higher The Councell off Nice bounding and butting the metropolitaneships decreed that the bishop of Constantinople vvhich it calleth the greate citie should be metropolitane ouer Thracia certeine other ouer Pontus others ouer Asia to the nombre off ten metropolitaneships This order was confirmed by other councels off Constantinople and Ephesus as they are obserued and continued vntill the councell off Calcedon vvhich moste confusedly and disorderedly throwghe extreme Ambition off the bishop off Constantinople drowned almoste all these ten in his one onlie sea Where also yt was ordeined by the same Councell of Nice that the Metropolitanes shoulde be off equall power and not one vnder an other this Councel made one Metropolitane ouer a nombre Where further it was ordeined by diuerse Councells as hath partely before and partely may appeare by c Theodoret that the Metropolitane off euerye Prouince shoulde be chosen by the bishops theroff this Councell maketh the bishop of Constantinople to haue the appointement off all metropolitaneships within the compas alledged by the D. Moreouer where the same Nicene Councell with sundrie others ordeined that the bishops of the Prouince at the least three should be at the ordinacion off euerie bishop this Councell giue the yt in the bishops off the Barbarians meaning as I suppose Scithians vnto him off Constantinople Now if the D. will make Chrysostome accessary vnto this famous robberie if giltie off all this confusion and disorder off the breache off so many Canons off the Nicene and other Councels and finally if he will make him a Pope he dothe him that iniurie which I would be lothe For where vnto me alledging that if he vvere Archbishop off all thes churches he vvas off moe then euer the Pope in his greatest pride he answereth that I am greatly deceiued for that Phocas the Emperour made all these churches and all other subiecte to the Pope and appointed him head off all I answere that he is greatly deceiued Considering that the Empire being deuided into the east and weast Empire more then 250. yeares before Phocas made Boniface the third Pope Phocas coulde not hauing his Empire for the most part in the easte where the churches were most ruined make all or halfe the churches subiecte vnto Boniface So that yt ys manifest that Chrysostome by his saying metropolitane off all Asia and a good parte off Europe must needes haue moe vnder him then Pope Boniface What the Pope claimed is nothing to that I set downe which spake precisely off that he was and not off that he claimed to be Therfore if he build vpon Chrysostomes supposed metropolitaneship he doth manifestly allow a larger circuite vnto a bishop then euer any Pope had Yf I would haue sought to haue discredited Chrysostome I might haue answered that yt was no meruaile thowghe he exercised suche dominion considering that bothe Socrates and Camerarius after him which commende diuerse vertues off his affirme him to haue bene a proud man But considering that him selfe opposeth the Emperours large dominion to a bishops charge in one cytie I chose that sence which I setdowne Neither are there any wordes either in Theodoret or the Centuries
not yet yt was hard for him to haue suche knowledge off so many churches wherby he might giue so precise a sentence especially if they be compared with ours which often haue heretikes euen vnder there nose and either see them not or looke throwghe their fingers Where to declare the vnlikelihoode off our bishops with theÌ in times past Theodoret bishop 26. yeares is shewed to haue had neuer a halfepennie c his answere is he professed voluntarilie pouertie Wherto I haue litle to replie but that the D. for aduantage spareth not the honour of his authors it being a great reproche in so great wealthe as the D. supposeth he might lawfully haue had to be so beggarly The next I leaue to the readers iudgement That the office off Archbishop and Patriarck by Caluin was nothing but to assemble the Synod propound the matter gather the voices c. I haue shewed condemning those names in the generall he must nedes condemne them in the particular for in bothe those names the word off dominion ys put which he condemneth That he condemneth the office with vs is clearer then the sunne and that in diuers sortes first generall in that vppon the Apostles wordes no man may take honour but he that is called as Aaron he denieth yt lawfull to set vp any gouernement in the churche at the pleasure off men vvithovvt vvaiting for the commaundement of God and that the church office deuised vvithovvt his commaundement and expresse ordinance is vnlavvfull Wherby appeareth that the admonitions allegacion which the D. other where calleth grosse is in effect as fyne as Caluins Secondly in that he dothe in flat wordes declare that the holie goste tooke great heede that one should not so much as dreame off principalitie and dominion in the gouernement of the churche Thirdly in that he dothe precisely mislike that any should haue postorall charge ouer a Prouince which he declareth yet more manifestlie when he saithe the gouernement of the highe priest vvhich vvas ouer one nation ⪠being a figure off our Sau. Christ ovvght not to be follovved Wherby appeareth how vntrwly he chargeth me otherwhere with falsifiyng Caluin for saying that his iudgement is that no one should be minister off a whole nation That onely which he liketh off and confesseth to haue bene done according to the word off God is that when there were controuersies to be voided one had the preheminence to assemble the companie c. which preheminence we haue before confirmed so far is yt from vs that we can not abide yt That it can not be drawen further appeareth by that in the beginning off this treatise where it is manifest he streineth him selfe to speake honorably off the maner off discipline in the elder churches yet he saith there vvas almost nothing againste the vvord off God. And further that althovvgh there may be some lack in their orders yet because they did it oft good mynd and erred not muche it is good to gather yt Moreouer towching that institution which off all other is most plausible and least princelike that one in a churche should haue the name off bishop which notwihstanding as hathe bene shewed had no dominion nor autoritie to commaunde the reste he saithe that autoritie had no institution nor ground ovvt off the vvord of God. Wherupon yt is manifest those wordes off Calu. the ould bishops did frame no kind off gouernement but prescribed in the lordes vvord can not be drawen further then I haue said Where he expoundeth Caluins wordes euery singular bodie off church a dioces or prouince yt is as all the rest off these diuisions a shamefull bouldnes considering that Calu. doth in expresse wordes shut forthe a prouince and in calling it a singular bodie vsed moste propre wordes to set forthe a congregation which assembled into one place may at once be fed at one mouthe Where also otherwhere he supposeth Calu. meant by Prouinces suche as are vnder diuerse gouernours because one Prouince in one particular church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one bodie c. to omit his absurd speache that a prouince is in a particular churche in stede that he should haue said a particular churche is in the prouince let it be obserued that in making the whole churche in a kingdome but that singular bodie Calu. speaketh off he maketh notwithstanding the churche in one prouince which is the halfe off that yea euery diocese to be that singular bodie So that one singular and vndiuisible bodie off a churche must be twentie and one off them also coÌteining an other which is absurde yea by this meanes the church in a 100. Prouinces being vnder one Prince shall be but one singular bodie His reason that he can not meane a particular parish because euery one hath not many ministers is a cauill For it is enowghe that ther were diuerse in some churches as in the churche off Philippes wheroff he spake to draw him to that consideration Besides that there was as shall appeare in the particular churches appointed by the word off God an eldership amongest whom it was meete the same order shoulde be kepte Where he supposethe Caluin to haue thowght the churche off Geneua with all those belonging vnto yt to haue made but one bodie off a churche all see the D. pouertie driuen to leaue his wide workes to seeke some comforte in his thowghtes onely knowen to the lord If I shoulde vse the aduantage off that he spake and I hearde off vndowbted witnesses that althowghe he had no preheminence before the lowest Mynister but onely to propounde the causes gather the voices c. and was chosen therunto euerie two yeare yet he misliked that that small preheminence shoulde so long remaine with one as which in time might breed in conuenience likewise that I hearde my selfe off Maister Beza which misliked off yt for the same cause affirming it coÌuenient that it shoulde be done by euerie Pastor off the same resort in his weeke wheroff there be also other witnesses I say yf I should vse this aduantage a great deale more honest then his all see how that chaunge of presideÌtes which he derideth and will haue my onely phantasie should beside the scripture alledged and vse off the churches in Fraunce haue the approbation off these godly learned men But when in deede he deride the their iudgement written I haue smale hope that he will beare any reuerence to it onely spoken Neither require I that he esteme any thing theirs which can not be conuinced owt off their writinges let him wreste and wring wind and turne his worst But that we be not streight with him admit Caluin so thowght dothe yt follow that becawse he estemed a singular bodie off a churche scarce 20. small parishes lying round abowt wheroff euery off the ministers at the least meete once a weeke bothe for exercise off prophesie or interpretacion off the
Athanasius when he was but deacon or elder at the most writeth To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonÌe So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord call the elders or Deacons Lordes likewise So there shall be Lord Bishop Lord Elder Lord Deacon vvhich as it is ridiculous so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour which the D. fighteth for And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yovvres as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were yet if he vvill therupon conclude any superioritie of him aboue thelders off his church he must by the same reason say that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other seing Eusebius bishop calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord which is absurd and condemned off him self Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Lordes he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect which is idle seing that was confessed To my answer that Lorde vvith them vvas no other title then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree he saith most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie which is onely said and may easely be confuted in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie vvriting to all the church ministers not bishops onely called them most honorable fellovv ministers That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles that Princes ys very plaine language and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning sauing that he durst not vtter all For if he would haue applied his place he shoulde haue saide yt was not grudged at then that bishops vvere called by more loftie titles then th Emperours seing the title he presseth for the bishops is most precious Lordes and the Emperour as he saith vvas onely called Lord. That the house off salutations was within the boundes off the churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche is weake For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere yet there might be some neere not perteining therto Hââbeit if it were belonging to the church in that vvord there is no such note off excellency wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces To that off the bishops bestovving the church goods vpon loitering seruing men vvhich shoulde be bestovved vpon the vniuersities and poore bothe ministers and other he saith and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme honour off the prince and their owne good education off the princes honour yt is answered strenght to the realme they can not be seing the men should be althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop especially seing the bishops howse is an vnfit schole to traine vp to vvarfare And if the former necessities were helped aÌd yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that vvay all see that yt would rise to more profit if some were nourished off them in profession off a Souldiour then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become vvhite liuered then fashioned for that seruice Beside that the bishops countenaÌce being so profitable as yt is made and placed a greate parte in this suite off men it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme For the education they get vnder them the corrupte religion of some the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion the leudnes of diuers the idlenes off the most parte which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte wherin let the reader obserue how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses and Prouinces which haue their proper houses so euil ordered especially seing the Apostel vvill not truste him vvith one parishe vvhich ruleth not his owne howse vvel And the trwth ys that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care that yt vvill not suffer the bishops gyftes be they neuer so greate to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber vvhich vvas no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture and the olde Canons shut owt the bishops from this pompe Where he saith the vniuersities ministers and poore may otherwise be prouided for when that ys browght to pas and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber âf learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers and coÌmen wealth off her magistrates the ouerplus may as M. Hoopers counsail is goo to maintenance off Souldiours or other necessary vses aduised off by the common vvealthe That the canons browght against the bishops pomp reache to vniuersitie colledges forasmuch as there were none such then as we haue now ys vntrwe considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse vvas as hathe bene shewed a colledge off Students in diuinitie and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient For I reason not againste their pompe because yt was not vsed in times paste but because yt was forbidden And if he can shew the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels then yt had heue somewhat he saith Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges werelike the bishops yt were likewise worthie to be spoken against Ierome cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse Ieromes wordes be these let the readeriudge off his meanig yt is a foule shame that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe VVho also eate of other mens meate the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde vvaite and that the ruler off the Prouince shoulde dine better at thy hovvse then in the palace But if thovv pretend to do these thinges to th ende to beg for the poore the Secular iudge vvill giue more to a churche man vvhich kepethe measure and is frugall then to one vvhich is riche and reuerence more thy holines then thy riches Or if the ruler be suche that he vvill not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe but vvhen he is amongest the cupps I vvill gladly vvant suche a benefit and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge vvho is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge I omit that he inueighethe against a church maÌ which poore before becometh riche by the church aÌd liuing very homely before after vsethe delicate fare with other thinges to that ende Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe that certeine noble and riche men receââed to the mynistery and liuing somvvhat like their former estates others assaied to be like vnto them whether an other cause were for that it being amongest the heathen priests
before yt came into the church off the Christians yt vvas as diuers other corruptions taken off them by imitation whether a thirde and more higher cawse theroff were that the brauery of the pourpled vvhore of Rome might bothe easelier take her seate and faster houlde yt vvhilest other bishops vvere made somevvhat sutable vnto her vvhich she could not haue done if other bishops left in the simplicitie vvherin God had apointed them she had bene as an ovvle amoÌgest the reste of the birdes I say whether these three are amongest the causes off bringing in the bishops pompe into the churche I leaue to the readers iudgement Considering that the D. beside begging and dissembling the matter which I goo abowte to proue hathe nothing That Christians might aswel be thowght to haue folowed Maximinus in building churches as in sufficiently prouiding for the ministers ys to simple seing we deny hym not sufficient prouision But if he esteme nothing sufficient onles he be mainteined as a lord let him learn off S. Paul what is sufficient and so he shal I doubt not fall from his 1000. to a 100. vnto thes three causes off the bishoplike statelines I will heer ad the fourth worthy to be obserued M. Bucer shewing the incommodities which came by that the bishops vvere receiued to bear ciuill offices saith after they began to occupie the place off princes they chalenged also to them selues their pompe and brauery So let the reader iudg how trw yt ys that I said that our archbishops bishops c. besides the names haue almost nothing commenvvith those of elder times and hovv if the old bishops vvere aliue they vvould not knovv one annother For that they vvould thinke ours princes and ours vvoulde esteme them as hedge priÌestes What I allow off the oulde Canons and what I disalow althowgh he dissemble yet he knoweth better then he would I hauing at large declared yt in this Tractate The first diuis I oââit In the next to that the Apostle called the Corint to a moâârate estimacion of the ministers meane betvveen contempt and to much exalting them vpon occasion that the false Apostels were to much lifted vp he saith yt was a partial affection to wardes their teachers not in respect off any title which is friuolous for if it be denied generally that they shoulde not be so mounted then the way is stopped against titles and offices and other meanes whatsoeuer wherby that may grow Beside that the D. is afraied as appeareth by his answer to be browght vnto a moderation and meane betvvene contempt and excessiue estimacion Where I shew that as the false Apostels pompe in preaching lifting them vp aboue the faithfull ministers caused the faithful ministers to be contemned so the pompe of our bishops lifted vp aboue the rest off the pastors to be a ready vvay to bringe their mynisterie ovvt off credit and that as that gaue occasion to the Corinthes to saie I houlde off suche a teacher c. so this giueth occasion to say I vvil beleue my Lord Bishop or my lord Archbishop vvhatsoeuer our parson say for they be vvise men and learned I say to all this beside wandring and vnlikely slaunders there is not a word seing I trust it appearethe to all that we giue no occasion by any pompe that the people in magnifying off vs should condemne others The next diuision I leaue to the reader Where against the D. slaunder off the Admonitions intent to take away princes I shewed that his practise against vs is the same vvith the Pharisies against our Sauiour Christ vvhich being rubbed for their ambition accused him as no friend off Cesar He answerethe that we are not Christ which is ridiculous that the case is not like whereof let the reader iudge seing he is as they were honour pricked Whether our Archbishop dvvell as far asonder almost from the ciuil magistrate as Rome and Ierusalem let the reader iudge off that alledged likewise what a coÌning stargaser the D. is which saw in the star off my forehead that the admonition intended the ouerthrow off the ciuill magistrate The nexte off the canon off Antioche Councel is answered but where I shew that that Canon is not like to be iustifiable considering that it sovvght falsely ââedite off the name off the apostels he answereth not Onles this be his answer that yt is the naturall Canon off the apostels And in deede his wordes so sound for thus he saithe That canon off the Apostels is repeated in this councel as diuers off the Nice be repeated off other councels Which how shamfully yt is spoken may appeare off that we haue before disputed off the antiquitie off the metropolitane How dangerously to the ouerthrow off our faithe whilest we are borne in hand that there be canons of the Apostels not coÌteined in the canonicall scripture al that haue iudgement may vnderstand and yt is in parte before declared I omit that yt is cleane contrary to his doctrine off the archbishop wherby he maketh him an officer changeable at the wil of the Prince For if that be thApostles Canon there is no ministery in the holde scripture which hathe better euidence for an vnchangeable perpetuitie then yt That M. Bucer is wholy for vs in this point I refer the reader to that before written The place alledged here would haue made litle for him if he had not kepte his custome For where Bucer speaketh off obedience to be gyuen by the bishops to the metropolitan he hath left owt these wordes after their maner By vvhich conning he may proue the Acthiopian afaire man because he hath white teeth For all see that M. Bucer by these wordes delaied the autoritie off the metropolitanship And if they were not plaine enowgh yet others in the same place are that the patriarches vvere set ouer the metropolitanes as they ouer the bisho ⪠but that nether could doe any thing saue onely admonish those ouer vvhoÌ they vvere set aÌd if they obeied not to complaine of them to the synod After he condemneth that the Patriarches toke vnto them the ordination off the bishops nigh them and by meanes therof by litle and litle gat some iurisdiction ouer those bishopes and their churches So appeareth that if there be any difference here touching these offices betwene vs and M. Bucer yt is onely that where we affirme yt good that the presidentship should be chosen at euery meeting as that which cometh neerer the apostels example and more safe against Tyranny M ⪠Bucer may seem to make yt a standing and continuall office set ââ in one man For as towching his autority wherin the chief poinct off the controuersie lieth yt findeth as smal grace with M Bucer as with vs. Whatsoeuer is here is answered sauing the contrarietie assigned betwen this an Apostle vvas aboue an Euangelist and that there was chiefrie euen amongest the apostels in that one labored more and
is vnmeet to ⦠own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌt that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be ãâã ââmple of life cccxliij Proued also by ⦠oÌtinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌsidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij ãâã yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâââich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of ⦠e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌs and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌdle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌmon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th ãâã sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g ⦠⦠ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporââââath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the âouââshing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌt And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemââ matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified ãâã simple reading off the scriptures ⪠then by sermons paââ â80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons
not right and yet some founde whiche either maye haue there calling according to the word off god diuerse from that which is commonly vsed or els the lawfull callinge by the church ceasing haue it by an immediate calling from god Iff M. D. will be so ignorant as not to know how these two maye stand togither let him be ignorant if he delight in his blindnes what should he doo with a guide After he saith my distinction is not good off lavvfull and ordinarie for that whatsoeuer is lawfull in a churche established the same is ordinarie and for proufe hereoff he addeth that coÌmon reason teacheth it but what is that common reason it had bene good yow had set it downe This is a simple confutatioÌ which yow vse to proue that in an established church lawfull and ordinarie are all one And iff I should replie and saye that the distinction is good and that common reason teacheth soo if I light off as fauorable a reader as yow my proufe will be as good as yours ⪠but this is but to abuse the time and to delude the world And it is the more vntollerable that yow are not contente to haue said it once withowt proufe onlesse it be also quoted in the margent as thowghe we could not withowt some great damage want this highe sayinge And wher yowe make common reason the iudge hereoff althowghe she be an euill scholemistris oftentimes in these cases yet she teacheth here plainely against yow For iff a man will consider it in naturall thinges yt is euident in the birthe off children that some thing is lawful which is not ordinarie It is nor ordinarie for a woman to bring foorthe thre or fower children at once and yet it is lawfull And if this common reason be considered also in politicall thinges there it shall appeare likewise that thinges are lawfull in a well gouerned aÌd established coÌmon wealth which are not ordinaârie As if order be taken that none shal clime the walles of the citie aÌd the citizens climinge the wall vpon the sodeine comming off the enemie driue him backe no maÌ can denie but this acte is lawfull and yet it is clere that it is not ordinarie being otherwise but in suche a case as this punishable But let these goo and let vs see how this oracle agreeth withe the word off god And first iff by a churche established yow meane a church which hathe one vniforme order grounded owt off the word off god yow take that for graunted which is the controuersie for we denie that the churche off England is so established But iff yow vnderstand by a churche established a church of god vvherin vvith other thinges well donne the corruptions which are in yt are by common consent off those which rule the churche agreed vppon it is manifest that in suche a churche there hath bene a calling lawful which was not ordinarie For before the comminge off our Sauior Christ it is confessed that there was amangest the Iewes aÌd in IerusaleÌ especially a churche of god established the ordinarie ministeries off the priestes and Leuites vsed thâ prescribed sacrifices offred the law read and taught the corruptions of the churche were not the seuerall opinions of particular persons but the vniforme decrees off those vvhich had the gouernment And yet there the lord raised vp Simeon and Iohn Baptiste whose vocations being extraordinarie were notwithstanding lawfull And that there be no hole for M. D. to hide his bouldnes off castinge forthe whatsoeuer taketh him first in the heade it is to be shewed that in the moste orderlie established churches off god and moste purelie reformed according to the worde of god there haue bene ministers lawfull and yet not ordinary In the vvildernes the churche vnder the conduite off Moses and Aaron was for the owtward face exactlie gouerned according to the rule that god had giuen theroff and yet we reade off the 72. vpon whom the spirite of Prophesie fell vvhich vvas no ordinarie calling as that vvhich endured but for a time as the wordes of the texte howsoeuer they be otherwise translated do declare which saith that they added not to prophesie anie more When was the churche better established according to the rule off the worde of god then in Dauids time and yet then besides himselffe there vvere diuerse extraordinarie ministers For there was the Prophete NathaÌ and Gad withe others not off the Leuiticall order whiche onelie was the ordinarie callinge off the churche In the new Testament the churche off Antioche ceased not after it was established to haue the extraordinarie function off Prophetes And onless M. D. vvill saie that all these functions were vnlawfull he must confesse that in an established churche ordinarie and lawfull are not all one And albeit in these times vvhere there is a churche established according to the vvord off god the lord dothe not vse to raise vp anie suche extraordinarie ministerie neither is it to be looked for yet yt is a thinge vvhich may come to passe and vvhiche hathe nothinge in the vvorde off god to the contrarie In steade of that yow saye Iff any church in England doo electe there minister otherwise then the lawes off the churche dothe permitt it can not be excused off schisme yow should haue said otherwise then the worde off god dothe permitte For iff it be shewed that that order established be corrupte and the other vvhiche they folowed in the calling off their minister according to the vvord of god then they neede not to be afraid off the slaunder off schisme And vvhere yovv saye suche and suche parishes muste be loked vnto verely they nede not therin be ashamed vvho looke vpon them But If eare the looke yow meane is to put owt their eye in taking awaie the Minister that they should be the lesse hable to looke vnto your vnfaith full dealing vvithe the churches off god Yow vnderstand not yow saie what I meane when I saie that the choise off the Minister by the churche is suche as the examples off the scripture do shew to haue bene before the Eldershipp and gouernment off the churche be established I know in deede these thinges before haue bene vnhearde off by yow whose ignorance the churche must rue And now when yow are tolde it in so plaine wordes as I nothinge dowbte but a childe off nine yeres oulde dothe vnderstand yt yow can not yet comprehende it Yt was the practise off the Pharises against our Sauior Christe when they had nothing to answere to charge him that he spake not plainlie but propounded thinges dowbtfully that men coulde not tell where to haue him For they come vnto him and saye how longe doest thow holde vs in suspence Iff thow be Christ tell vs plainlie as thowghe he had not tolde them plainlie before This Pharisaicall practise the D. vseth against me diuerse times gropinge at noone dayes and complaining that I am not plaine and open enoughe and going
and coper or any other refuse metall And yet their is nothing which the Ans doth suppose may come to passe here which may not happen to them all a part and to the greatest parte off them altogither And therfore for any thing yet alleadged the bishops election is further off then before and the equitie off the churches consent in chusinge off Ecclesiasticall officers more apparant For the Westmerlande Minister I doo not here appointe any certeine parlicular rule althoughe I doubte not there are many wates which the churches vpon the persente occasion shal be able to take but it is answered before in generall that what way soeuer the bishop may take for his knowledge the same may the churche Yow tell me often that it is no matter what I thinke off this or that aÌd I desire not that any man should weighe what I saie further then it hath weight off the word off god Which rule if it be kepte in the examination of yours also as I dowbte not it willt we shall not neede to feare any great praie yow shall carrie away at this meetinge I haue shewed in part and more also will appeare how the reformed churches agree withe vs And I am assured that he can not bringe one example off any other church which professeth the gospell where the elections off the ministers depend vpon the pleasure of one Where he saithe none is admitted of the bishop which hath not dwelt a conuenient time in his dioses The scolers of Cambridge go indifferently for orders as they call them either to Elie or Bugden or Peterborowghe and sometime to London and I am sure they can no haue dwelt in all their dioses Therfore either there is no suche law or it is cuill kept And what will yow doe with the Archebishopp may he not ordeine in his prouince so that if yow thinke the diocese so narrowe a place as all those that dwell in yt may take sufficient triall off him that is to be ordeined yet yow answere nothing for the largenesse off the prouince To vvhom is that singulier person borne owt off time and in a darke corner of the bishops chappell before the rest to vvhom I saie is his habilitie so sufficiently knowen if to the Bishop so owght all the rest to others off the diocese how can he And vvher dothe the booke prescribe any suche rule that for some suche singuler person there may be suche a darke election so that for any thing that I know it is still at the bishops pleasure Sure I am there haue bene in that sort admitted vvhich for any singularitie that gaue them any commendation to the ministerie might haue well bene in the taile vvith a nomber of the reste And the ende off notifyinge the daie off orders vvhich yow say is especially that there may be resorte thither of suche as haue any thinge to obiect against any that is at that time to be admitted into the ministerie is as I think but a shifte to serue this turne the confutation vvherof may be fetched from the Bishopps bull vvhich being set vp vpon the church dore as by the sounde of a trumpet to gather an armie wheroff the greatest parte off of them after the bishops hand is laid vpon their heades haue power to inuade the church of God at all occasions propoundeth this as the cheife ende that if any be disposed to receiue orders he should repaire to the bishop at suche time and place For it maketh no mention as I remember of any suche ende or at the least that that is the principall ende And if that be so vvhich I will not precisely affirme but referre it to the reader vvhich may haue more assured knowledge then I can haue off it then the vntrewth off this saying dothe notably appeere for if it had bene the principall cause off the settinge vp theroff it ought so to haue bene propounded at the leaste not to haue bene left owt But whether it be or no it is manifest mockerie of the people off God and if it should be approued off the Bishops vvhich is here alledged I caÌ not see how they could deliuer them selues from that sore accusation off making merchandise off the people off God by coulorable and deceitfull vvordes For to omitt that the bishop was wânt to goo to euerie church which had a pastor or bishopp to be ordeined as I am able to proue and not all the churches to come vnto him and to let the incoÌuenience passe how the churches throwghowt the whole diocese can be lodged especially oftentimes in a litle village wher the Bishopp giueth his orders and to let passe that the bill vvhich is set vp vpon the churche doore is in the latin tonge wherby they can make no preparation not vnderstanding the sounde off the trompet I saie to let all thes passe what should the churches doo there to haue triall off the sufficiencie off the ministers vvhich haue alreadie an incumbent for the Bishops do as well giue orders vvhen the places are full as vvhen they are not And what should those vvhich vvant doo there vvhen they know not vvhether they shall haue one of that creation or of some before one made in that diocese or in an other And if so be they were which they can not be sure that they should haue one off them there being peraduenture fower or fiue vvhich want either they must enquire into the sufficiencie off 40. 50. yea a hundreth sometimes which is impossible or els they may be deceyued For the Patrone and the bishop are not tied nether will be vnto these vvhich they haue made enquirie off but will chuse vvhich they list of all that nombre vvhich hath passed throwghe the bishops handes And if ther vvere no moo made then they wanted yet vvheÌ they haue not bene conuersant in that parte off the diocese vvher the voide and vvidowe churches be how can they stand vp against those which they neuersawe nor heard of before Therfore if there had bene any trewth ment by this pretence the Bishop should first haue haue knowen what they be vvhich vvould enter the Ministerie and so giue the churches vvhich vvant vvarning to enquire by suche a day of suche and suche as be suters and vvoers vnto them So that by these and many other considerations vvhiche I leaue to euerie on s estimation vvith him selfe it appeareth vvhat reuerence he hathe of the church vvhich dare offer suche a broken vizard to hide from their knowledge the disorder off the bishops election Where yowe say that he muste off necessitie be admitted into the ministerie before they can gyue any iudgemeÌt of his abilitie in teaching c. In deede I heare yow speake sentences and looked for some argumentes for the confirmation off that which condemneth the order off diuers churches which for better triall off their ministers giue them some pece off scripture to interprete They haue bene moued with
some reason and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde But the order of trying his gifte off expounding is good and for the moste parte necessarie For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ yet his vtterance disposition and memorie giftes necessarie for a minister can not be tried but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners and him that is to be ordeined And iff in well ordered cities ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie some worke for a masterpeece and declaration that he hathe skil in that he will open his shop for how muche more in the ministerie off God owght it to be prouided that before he be allowed to worke in the great misterie off our saluation and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God the maisters off the companie especially whiche are the Elders off the church being best able to iudge owght to haue triall how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God. But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation will here to pinche me vvith all girde it so streight I answere that neither he which is to be admitted doth it withowt vocation being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the electioÌ nether doo they admit him withowt warrant of the word of god For the lord in comÌaunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie aÌd that precisely before he be admitted doth in that commaundement include all thinges that pertaine therto For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one ther is also a waye to come vnto it graunted withall althowghe the same be not mentioned so the lord in giuing to his church power to trie his ministers can not by any meanes bethowght to haue hedged vp the way which leadeth neerest vnto that triall And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches We haue plaine examples in the scripture as I haue shewed in my former booke And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities wherin younge men that they might he better prepared for the ministerie do interprete in there courses the scriptures which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie I will let yow passe heere with this contrarietie with yowr selffe that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places where yow giue it to the Bishops and Archbishops If yow had found suche a one in me yow would haue made suche hue and crie sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey But I will not presse your contrarieties but wher they be pregnant And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke which were by me in this behalffe assigned Their wordes are to be seene my replie and your answer let the world iudge what forehead there is in him which saith they condemne all as euill and as vnlearned lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge that it is light at noone daies There is more likelehoode that for want of iust triall they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge to those which are admitted by the common order But it followeth not theroff that they saie there are none lawfullie admitted for the cause before alledged And it is vnreasonable yow should charge them vvith that vvhich I vvrite or vvith that the second admonition vvriteth Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce I wrote that vvhich I receiued wether it be trew or no it may easely be knowen of those vvhich vvill enquire off it Take yow good leaue to speake all good off the vniuersitie it shal be my recreation after your importunate barkinges yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her and althowghe I be from her yet I caried some of her boweles vvith me so that whether there be in her either iust cause of ioye or sorowe I haue them in comÌon with her I can take no exceptioÌ vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers not hauiÌg the register of the vniuersitie but yow did warely saie knoweÌ preachers and not godly preachers for some of those haue troubled the vniuersitie and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie free will aÌd Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure then euer our sauiour Christ taught But to leâ the corruption off some and the inhabilitie off other some with the so rare preachinge off certeine that as at the appearinge off a comete or blasinge starr or some other notable change in the heauens so at their preaching there may be feare off some calamitie to come to let all those goe to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte those which are taken awaie by death those vvhich are thrust owt off the ministerie and musled by the bishops those which are mued in cloisters those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie remaine there and those vvhich hauing charges in the countrey lurke there These being subducted excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew I feare me that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of EnglaÌd which I assigned before as many as yow take from that nombre which I reported to be in Fraunce And alas what are these fiue loues and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares and had not had an other ende then is false owt we should haue had to thaÌke yow for this leuie of ministers vvhich the vniuersity hathe bred as that which streÌgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers which I assigned M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie and as Plautus Euclio he suspecteth euery man for his treasure and by putting his hand so often to the sore vvhen he is not touched he declareth plainely vvhat is the greife The feare of spoile off the churches goodes is not vvithowt cause But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court which off their yearly exhibitions giuen to mainteine there studies haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures more for any thing I know then all the bishops haue doone Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie with such suspitions Yf the Centurion deserued praise for building a Synagoge and is coÌmended by the holie Gost to all posteritie for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word then they for there liberalitie in prouidinge for the minister him selfe deserued a better gratulation then this Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban and botomlesse bagge it should haue bene counted to them for