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A26776 An answer to (vindicate the cause of the nick-named Quakers of such scandalls and untruths as is falsly cast upon them in a lying pamphlet, otherwise called) A discourse concerning the Quakers set out by T.L., or, as I understand the signification of the letters, Tho.? Ledger / by Geo. Baiteman. Baiteman, George. 1653 (1653) Wing B1094; ESTC R4254 26,089 36

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all things But I would have the Author and all others to understand themselves better and then they shall understand Scripture better I would know of the Author what Scripture it was that the Apostle meaneth of when the Scripture which we have at this day was not written many a yeare after the time of Abraham but if the Author cannot tell I will declare to him what Scripture that was The Word Scripture is two-fold and to be understood in a two-fold sence the one Essencyall the other Declarative Now the Scripture Declarative is written in Paper by men and had a time for its beginning and so there is a time for it to end but the Scripture Essenciall hath its being in it selfe and is Eternall and shall have no end and this Scriture is the true Essenciall Word of God or his Sonne Christ by whom all things were Created and this Word was in the beginning and this Word was God and nothing was made or brought to passe but by this Word John 1. 1. 2. and this Word was the Wisedome of God by which he spoke and acted and fore-seeth things to come and it was this Word or Scripture that fore-saw by which God fore-told Abraham things to come and this Word or Scripture and God is all one And the Apostle who knew the truth hereof divers times useth the Word Scripture for the Word God when he is speaking of Gods fore-seeing speaking or acting as may plainely appeare where he saith The Scripture hath concluded all under unbeleife Gal. 3. 22. the which act the Scripture Declarative never could doe but the Scripture or Word Essenciall which is God the truth of which is cleared by the same Apostle speaking of the same subject where he saith That God had concluded all under unbeleife c. Rom. 11. 32. And further in speaking of what the Scripture said to Pharaoh Even for this purpose have I raysed thee up c Rom. 9. 17. which saying was not spoken to Pharaoh nor which worke was wrought upon him by the Scripture Declarative but by the Scripture or Word Essentiall which was God himselfe as may be seen in Exodus 9. 16. where it was plainly held out that it was God that spake these words and wrought that worke upon Pharaoh Now I would have that Author and all other to understand the true distinction between the Scripture or Word Essentiall and the Scripture or word Declarative for if they doe not it is possible they will adde to the one and diminish the other and then let them take heed of the curse that John speaketh of at the end of the Revelation But the Author goeth on in his Discourse in his blindnesse and all along attributeth that to the word Declarative which is the proper worke of the word Essenciall and so brings to prove what he ●aies the saying of the Apostle in Heb. 4. 12. where it is said The Word of God is quicke and powerfull and sharper then any two edged Sword c. the which he falsly applyeth to the Scripture Declarative which in it selfe is as dead as a stone except the Essenciall word first move in the heart of man otherwise how is it that all mens thoughts and intents is not discovered by Hearing or Reading it but what the Apostle speaketh there is the very worke of the Essenciall word or God himselfe as the following verse of the same Chapter will truely witnesse where the Apostle doth more illustrate and lay open the property of the Essenciall word and saith Neither is there any creature that is not manifested in his sight but all things are naked and layd open before the eyes of him with whom we have to doe And doth not God plainely declare by the Prophet That it is he himselfe that searcheth the heart and tryeth the reines Jer. 17. 9. 10. O what blindnesse is amongst men yea amongst Professors also that they cannot see nor be made beleeve what is the word of God but in their blindnesse taketh the Scripture Declarative for the word of God for which they have neither example nor command in that Scripture they doe so much Idolize but onely as they have received that word by Tradition from their fore-Fathers who was blinded in their understanding and could not know any other word of God and so gave that name to the Scriptures because they were not acquainted with the Essenciall word within them therefore their wit carryed them to Scripture without them and finding some saying in it which suited with their reason as such sayings as these They spake the Word of God with boldnesse Acts 4 31. But the Word of God grew and multiplyed Acts 12. 24. Not handling the Word of God deceitfully Rom. 4. 2. Take the Word of God which is the Sword of the Spirit Ephes. 6. 17. It is sanctified by the Word of God and Prayer 1 Tim. 4. 5. and divers other speaking in Scripture to that purpose which all of them is the proper effects of the Eternall Word the Sonne of God the which but few of our wise learned Rabbies have knowne and therefore have they understood that these sayings which held out the property of the Eternall with its effects to be the property of the Scripture and its effects But when our Saviour who was the Word it selfe had occasion to use Scripture he gave no such title to Scripture but said It is Written in such a Booke or Is it not Written in your Law John 10. 34. And when the Apostles had occasion to speake out of the Scripture did they not follow the same rules And when the Apostle Peter would pronounce the Scripture by another name he calleth it A sure Word of Prophesie But this epithite the Word of God was not at all given to it untill the Eternall Word was hid and man wanted the life and power thereof within him and then his wit found the Word of God without him and to these dayes our wise Rabbies understand it so and makes Fooles beleeve that what they say is true and under this pretence they take to themselves the name of the Ministers of God and that which they Preach is the Word of God when as they know not what the word of God is but what they gather out of the Scriptures which is nothing else but a Declaration of the word of God without a man but as for that which is the Word it selfe the which should live in them and they in it and what that word spake in them to declare to others alas they know not what it meaneth but busyeth themselves to persecute and scandalize these in whom the Essenciall word liveth and they in it And that Author being of the Disciples of thefe Rabbies doth play his part on their side and in his Discourse runns himselfe stone blinde about advancing Ordinances and Scripture to that end for which they were never intended but if the blind leade the blind they had best take heed of
hope the Author will not deny the truth of these Scriptures and if these promises be fulfilled in any man what need hath such of Scripture reaching without them when they have received the same spirit within them by which all true Scripture was written and how much is the words proceeding from that spirit inferiour to Scripture except the holy Ghost have changed its nature and be not what it was formerly for it is not time and persons that make mens words differ or not be in equallity to the word in Scripture but the spirit from whence they flow And doth not all ordinances point out or leade to that very end that God and Man should be united in one spirit that he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified may be one And if any soule be so made one with God who dare deny but all true Scripture is fulfilled in them and that such soules have no need of any to teach them because that anointing which they have received is able to teach them all things 1 Iohn 2. 27. But I say no more to that because the truth of what they say herein is so largely amplified in Scripture except it be to poore blind iddeots whose envy against others have shut their eyes from seeing and their hearts from understanding the Truth of Scripture The Author of that Discourse proceedeth still in questioning the light which is in these people and amongst the rest of his scandals east upon them would make people beleeve that these people deny the Scriptures the which is a most false aspersion for there is not a people in England that is more conformable to the very outward requiring of Scripture then these people and that light within them doth leade them and causeth them to act according to what the Scripture requireth in the practicall part thereof in their obedience to which their very outward practice doth condemne all men in the Land both religious and irreligious for they follow the words of our Saviour where he saith Take no thought for to morrow And having Food and Rayment therewith be content c. Mat. 6. 26. 27. And in mortifying their Sences and Members they follow the command of the Apostle to divers of the people he taught which Rule he followed himselfe 1 Cor. 9. 27. and yet this Author saith They are possessed with an austere Devill and denyes Scripture for so doing but let but a wise man judge whether those who pretend Scripture and talke of Scripture or those that practice Scripture deny it most for every one that cryeth up Scripture with their Tongue are not those that confesse Scripture but those are they that truely confesse it that in their practice is conformable to it for every one shall not enter into Heaven for talking of Scripture and making discourses of God out of Scripture nor that sayeth Lord Lord but they that doe the Will of the Father But it is no marvaile to me if these people be so cryed out against with all people for their very outward life is a Witnesse against all sorts both Formalists and others For there is no difference between the Formalists and men who are not conformed for both are alike for pride and sensuality and for the love of the world and for reputation amongst men all of them having hearts alike in the worship of the god of the World onely the Formalists differ from the other in their head by which they are carryed beyond the other into a faire seeming Forme in which they worship God according to their good-thinking but yet their Forme will admit their hearts to worship the gods of the Heathen I may speak it with sadnesse of heart seeing the truth hereof so clearely and cannot deny but all Formalists and unconformed are but hornes springing out of the same head of the Beast which John saw in his Revelation Further the light that is in these people is not at all contrary to what the Scripture holdeth out in the Mystery but the same being truely fulfilled in them they are made able to witnesse the truth in the Scripture and no other way can any soule be a true witnesse of the truth of Scripture but by having the same truely fulfilled in them for all other are but false witnesses and speaketh but of it from what they have heard or received from others and these people is made able by the light which is in them to witnesse the truth of the love of God made knowne to their soules and of other of Gods dealing with them and will not vary from Scripture but owne it and take it to witnesse the truth of what they doe declare to others And I am sure that many of the Priests in England can witnesse the truth of what I say if their malice would but let them for the time hath been and not long since that some of the Priests made tryall of them thinking to confute them and make them appeare as erronious but it proved the contrary way for not long had they dissoursed with them but the Priests was strucken dumbe before them and had not a word to say but was forced to fly like beaten Cockes in so much that the very vulgar people shouted at the beaten Priests and some did averre that they conceived that no fewer then an hundred soules was convinced of the truth at that time And yet these beaten Priests deviseth all wayes possible to root out these people but they are but like the people with whom Steven conversed who was not able to resist the spirit he spake from yet they stoned him to death Acts 7. ●7 c. The Author of that Discourse proceedeth about the exhaltation of Scripture and sayes whatsoever is essentiall to God the same is appropriated to Scripture the which saying if well considered is no lesse then blasphemy Whether was it God or the Scripture that Created the World and all other things Or whether was it Scripture or Christ that suffered for the sinne of man or whether is it Scripture or Christ that reconcileth God to man or whether is it Scripture or God that maketh the Winde blow where it listeth and the Raine to fall in its appointed season c. If that be true which he saith why is not every one sanctified and made holy that Heareth or Readeth Scripture Alas when men have no other light but the light of reason to beare witnesse to the truth of Scripture what soule mistakes doe they light on in medling with Scripture for as some being led by their wilde wandering wit make lesse of the Scripture then it is so this Author is carried by that light to make more of the Scripture then it is and to make good what he affirmeth he quoteth Gal. 3. 8. where the Apostle is speaking of things in the dayes of Abraham which was before any Scripture was Written and because the Apostle sayes The Scripture foreseei●g such things therefore it is like God who fore-seeth
by mans own industry which seemingly may be of God the light which is in Reason though never so much augmented by mans industry in Reading Hearing Studying or examination cannot finde out the darkenesse of it selfe yet man in that light may walke very zealously and yet therein be the greatest enemy that God hath in the world and doe more mischiefe against Christ and the Truth then those who have no illumination at all neither act any thing in obedience to such light Witnesse the Apostle Paul who from the obedience to such light Persecuted the Saints And many of the Scribes and Pharisees who upon the same account put Christ to death Yea from the time that God hath been pleased to come neer the sonns of men by the 〈◊〉 of his Sonne in Flesh hath this ignorant zeale manifested it selfe and the Prophesie of Christ hath been in fulfilling till now and as yet is not out of date nor shall be so long as men is hide-bound under Formes which is the creatures owne actings nor so long as men is heart bound to any created thing whatsoever so long as these have residence in men the men who is inveigled in them shall alwayes be enemies of the Truth when or wheresoever the same becommeth truely to be manifest and yet none shall be greater pretenders of Truth no● greater contenders for Truth then those who be the greatest opposites thereof And he that was the Truth it selfe beareth witnesse hereof in his Prophesie where he saith The time shall come that those that Kill you shall thinke they doe God service John 6. 2. But some may say at this day there is no Persecuting of men for their judgement in matter of Worship seeing that Liberty of Conscience is countenanced by the present Authority To which I say there is a Persecution and Killing in a two-fold manner The one being acted by the Ignorant zeale of Papists Prelacians and Presbyterians and that Persecution was acted upon the bodies and states of men who would not Worship God in their way but that I confesse is much abated But the second Persecution or Killing is yet untaken away but is in as full force and vigour as ever and that is the Persecution of the Tongue and Hand both being set on worke by the ignorant zeale of the hellish fire that is in the heart from which burning flame the Tongue is made to utter scandelizings and calumnious speeches against such persons as God doth marvailously make his truth to appeare in their soules because such soules is not made partakers of the truth under their good thinking rules and faire seeming Formes and from the zeale of that fire their hands is set on worke to write ridiculous Pamphlets in villifying the names and actions and intentions and manifestations of such persons as have had a clearer sight of the truth and fuller possession of the same yea and live more in the power thereof then any person who is so glewed and hinde-bound to any Forme though never so seeming holy in the same And I wish that the Author of that Pamphlet called the Discourse concerning the Quakers be not one of these good thinking Proselytes who thinketh they have God hard tyed to them in the chaines of a faire-seeming Forme and through that great light he may imagine himselfe to have may become captived under a judgement whose gates may prove as narrow as the eye of a Needle and then it is no marvaile to me to see or heare such persons throw durt in the face of God or in the face of any in whom God doth more abundantly manifest himselfe to then he hath done to them Yet however I will understand the Author of that Discourse in the better sence and will not say that he hath put out that Pamphlet by the power of the ground of the evill that is in his will but rather say and make it good to that he hath put it out from or by the power of the evill in his reason and these sins may happily be pardoned before these which ariseth out of the evill ground in the will for the Apostle Paul himselfe was received to mercy in as much as what he had done he did it in ignorance But now I proceed to what is intended The Authour beginneth his discourse with interpreting the words of such Scriptures as shew what great deceivers shall be in the last dayes and doth make his applications according as his good thinking inspireth him in the understanding of th●se Scriptures quoted by him but that spirit that is his guide herein I beleeve will not let him make the application of these Scriptures to himselfe nor any of his order but if judgement were but layd to the lyne and righteousnesse to the plummet and that the tempest of hayle had but swept away the lying refuge and if he would but weigh his own heart in the ballance of the Sanctuary I make no doubt but he might have made a truer application neerer home for who is the greatest deceivers in the world but such as have a faire seeming Forme of godlinesse and yet live not in the power of God himselfe and these are the greatest hypocrites amongst men for amongst such the white-devill hath his habitation and the well-favoured harlot hath her bed of whoredome most daintily decked whereon her lovers and she take their fill of pleasure O how well and subtilly doth she work when once she getteth her selfe covered over with the habit of Saint-like walkings in the outward form of a litterall Religion which seems to be the worship of God because of its newnesse and well regulated according as good-thinking hath invented carrying men into Scripture without them and yet unacquainted with the Scripture of truth which is within them And from hence it is that the mother of harlots becommeth well decked and bravely mounted upon her searlet-coloured beast and drunke with the blood of the saints let all Formalists in England of what Forme soever Brotherhood or Kirk-fellowship though their Forme may be the best in all the world and come to the very point of example and command of Scripture in its outward requirings take heed for though they may blesse themselves in a fools Paradise and think because they have got at a great distance from the Pope and his fictions therefore they be sure that they have nothing to doe with the Mother of Harlots nor she with them yet they are but cheated for she cannot delight her selfe nor be more secure then where Formes is in fashion For where there is not a Forme this Harlot may be entertained but yet not with such suptuousnesse as in a faire seeming Forme for where there is no Forme she is forced to goe on Foot but in a Forme she becommeth well-mounted Our Saviour knew the truth of this which made him pronounce so many woes against the Formalists in his daies and told them it should be more tollerable for Sodom then for them for
Author if he finde any command in Scripture for such Names or to give such epithites to men Nay is not the command of Scripture quite contrary For when our Saviour said Call no man Father upon Earth how can a man justly call another Master or Sir What man but Heathen or Fooles dare take that name to him seeing Christ gave in charge to his Disciples that they should not take the name Master upon them Mat. 23. 8. And what grounds or reasons can that Author shew that men should be called Yee and You seing all examples in Scripture New and Old calleth men by the name Thou and Thee yea if he were never so great a one and if the word You or Yee be any honour or respect why will not that Author and others let God have that honour and respect also Nay are not all these traditionall complements crept in amongst men in the time of darkenesse and how is the hearts of Fooles glewed to these Traditions yea the very examples and commands in Scripture is made voyde by vaine Traditions and yet these men who leave Traditions and follow the example and command in Scripture how are they mocked and scandalized for it and as this Author doth falsly accuse them that they walke not according to Scripture but may not even a very Ideot be judge whether they or the Author and his Fellowes be the greater denyers of Scriptures Nay it is too plainely apparant that the Author and his Fellowes are the denyers of Scripture though they pretend or cry Scripture Scripture Scripture but they will owne no more in Scripture then will sute and serve to please their good-thinking to patch up a Forme of Worship to their God under which they may hide all their pride and hypocrisie and coveteous practises but where the example and command in Scripture is against these things how little doe they heed it O how well is Scripture liked and how swiftly is the worship carried on when it sutes with sence and reason but O how harsh is Scripture and the worship of spirit in the way of bearing the Crosse of selfe-deniall nay away with that Scripture and Worship that will part a man and his selfe for that for sure shall have the name of madnesse and delusion The Author is judging these people That they thinke the observing of these things is a great Badge of their Profession but let 〈◊〉 thoughts be what they will of these things yet I will plainely tell that Author or any other of his Fellowes that to be brought to the profession of such things will be found an hundred times more harder worke then to be brought into Brother hood or Kirke-fellowship or to performe all holy duties so called in the same Fellowship for in Brother hood and Kirke-fellowship and in the performing of all holy duties so called included therein a man may keep his honour prayse pride and reputation amongst men but the profession of the other will kill these and therefore no marvaile if Formes have so many favorites and the other so few friends Another thing I observe in the Authors Discourse is where he is saying That some of these people through Gods mercy have bin reduced and turned again into Church-Communion who have confessed while they were in that way they had no sence of God c. I would have the Author and others to know the truth of that viz That those that joyneth with these people with an hypocrites heart cannot long continue in their way for there they finde but little to please their pride or sensuality or their wit and reason and God doth justly answer those in not shewing his countenance to an hypocriticall heart and when such hypocrites can finde nothing amongst them that will please pride and sensuality then doe they start backe from them for they know well enough where to be entertained and get liberty for their sences and keepe up their pride c. And where they may warme themselves at the fire of their owne kindling and walke in the light of these sparkes and have these to be called in comes of Christ into the soule and where they may be Canonized with the name Saint c. may not the Author hereby see the great blindenesse of himselfe and the rest of his formall Fellowes that an hypocrite falling from these people should amongst them be accounted a Saint for the truth is Formes and Church-fellowship is the very refuge of hypocrites but amongst the other an hypocrite cannot long continue It cannot be denyed but at this day there is hypocrites amongst them but time will discover them and they will fall off from amongst them but it maketh no matter for those that fall off will help to make Church-fellowship up well enough That Author proceedeth on in his Discourse with an Advertisement to his Fellowes to blesse God for their faire Form and holy performances I make no doubt but it would have pleased him well if his Fellowes had met together upon his Advertisement for two houres and praysed God for the goodnesse of their faire Forme much like the people who cryed for two houres together Great art thou O Diana of the Ephesians The Author containing still his spirit of scandall and rayling calleth these people Owles and sayes they dare not appeare where Church-fellowship is the which the very Priests and people in their naturalls will confute for they have appeared in open Congregations and have confuted and confounded the Priests in Preaching untruths to the people for which doing it is not unknowne that they have undergone long and tedious Imprisonments Yea these people dare appeare and hath appeared in Publique Market Places to declare against the sinnes of the people in these times for which doing some of them have put their life in danger And for other Church-fellowship viz. the Congregaeed way I I know not how one should devise to come to have the opportunity to appeare amongst them they keep so secret except a man have got on the hypocrites habit and make a friend of some of their Order to be admitted to appeare amongst them He likewise sayes they are bred in darke places what these darke places is he meaneth of I cannot tell except he meaneth in some place of the Land which is Hills or Dales remote from the body of the Land where oft times the worst of the Priests of Baall hath their habitations and where Church-fellowship is not in fashion If these be the darke places he meaneth of I would have him to know it is no hard thing for God to raise up light in darkenesse and to make more of his goodnesse and truth appeare to some in such places then to those who live in Cities great Townes and Corporations where oft-times the great or chiefe Priests of Baall have their Places because of fat Benefits and have the good-thinking policy of making Congregations But I would have the Author to remember that when Christ appeared in