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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A89859	Weaknes above wickednes, and truth above subtilty. Which is the Quakers defence against the boaster and his deceitfull slanders. Clearly seen in an answer to a book called Quakers quaking; devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world, and scorned by the scorners. In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome, and the truth cleared from the accuser. In much plainesse, that the simple may see and perceive, and come to be gathered to the Lamb, from amongst the armies of the wicked, who have now set themselves against the Lord, and sees it not. Also some queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false doctrine and deceits. / by one who is called, James Nayler.	Naylor, James, 1617?-1660.	1656 (1656)	Wing N327; ESTC R207303	22,439	32

called a lye but not proved one and time will prove it otherwise The fifth lye is that James Naylor in a written Paper calls thee shamelesse Man for tempting him to deny the Lord. The sixth lye is that James Naylor in the same Paper said if he had come in his own name thou wouldst have received him as was confessed by thee To both which I answer as many can witnesse with me at the dispute which occasioned the Letter when I denyed thy faith to be the the faith of God or any of his Saints and proffered to prove it so before all the people if thou would put it upon tryall thou denyed my request unlesse I would deny my Call from God and say I was called some other way or else there work a miracle and then thou wouldst put thy faith on tryall according to my request which if this was not to tempt me to deny the Lord and his Call to obtaine a dispute wherein I could not be received while I confessed to come in the Name of God which another way in my own name and will thou proffered to receive me And this being done before many witnesses was the occasion of these words in my Letter as followeth O Shameless man was ever such a thing demanded by any child of God to tempt one to deny the Lord yea the Heathen would blush at such a thing to send for one to dispute and then to deny to come t otryall with that they call the Rule and touchstone unlesse they whom they did dispute with would deny their God first Hast not thou proved thy selfe worse then any that ever disputed with the Apostles or any of the Servants of God that ever he sent forth Dost thou professe the Scriptures and is it become such an odious thing to thee to come in the name of God that for that very thing thou drust not put thy Faith upon tryall by Scripture nor could receive me but if I would come in my own name thou would as thou plainly confessed that if I would say I was not sent of God thou would put thy Faith upon tryall c. Now the things being true before related as many can witnesse where the lye is in these words let honesty judge and let any mind the wicked one how he hath perverted my words to slander me with saying that I said if I had come in my own name he would have received me as saith he I said he did plainly confesse and leaves out the rest which words as I writ them runs thus as thou plainly confessed That if I would say I was not sent of God then thou would put thy Faith on tryall The truth of which words will be witnessed by many that heard that thou pretended that very thing to hinder the tryall of thy faith because of my coming in the name of God And further thou added that if I was one sent of God it was to no purpose to put thy faith on tryall with me for I would overturne all thy proofes or words to that purpose as may be testified by many witnesses So the lyes be to thy selfe and on thy head till thou repent thereof but peace and truth to him that loves it Thy seventh lie is that while one ran from Bull Mouth to thy house for the Paper I slipt away which is a most abominable falshood as hundreds can witnesse that I went not away till the meeting broke up neither knew I of any such thing as the Letter fetching neither have I yet run from your filthy lyes envy much les shall I run from the truths written with my own hand which I here have owned and clearly proved to be truth thee to be the lyar and and shall further doe it if to the truth it may be service able And when thou hast done thou sayest these a are but a few of those Legions of Lyes that are in our writings and preachings when the Lyes are thy own raised by that Spirit of Insidelity who having denyed the Faith of Christ would turne his truth into a lye and was thou not impudent in thy wickednesse thou might be ashamed of thy birth thou hast brought forth who hath been hunting for accusations against the truth but canst find none and so runs to a sort of hurling Priests and their false accusations thou preachest for Truths being of the same nature with them their reports agree most with thy spirit and thy foundation being deceit thy work falls upon thy own head Then thou makes a boast of something that thou wouldst prove the first thing is the writings of the Scripture to be the word of God this thou wouldst prove from Mark 7. to where Christ saith They that doe not honour their father and mother maketh the word of God of none effect saying that he faith their making this written Law of none effect which is false for his words are Making the word of God of none effect through your traditions but thou that wouldst make the letter of that command the word which was written in stone if thou readest 2 Cor. 3. thou mighst find the Apostle denies that or to be any Minister of it and saith that ministration is done away and owns the ministration of the Spirit and not of the letter so thou hast lost thy word if the Apostle saith true and a new proofe thou must seek to prove the letter the word Another proofe thou brings is from Jer. 36. where thou wouldst prove that the letter of that Role is the word of God which Baruck read so by thy proofe the word of God may be burnt if that Role be it and so thy word of God is lost that which was written in that Role not so much as being in the Bible and with such confused stuffe as this thou makest thy proofes which the least of wisdome would be ashamed of If that engraven in stone be the word and that in Baruks role the word and both wanting the letter of the one and the matter of the other then there is two of the words lost and how thou wilt prove that which is lost to be the word now wisdome may judge who knowes the word of the Lord that endures for ever what ever becomes of the letter but a literall ministration suits best with thy made faith how should that faith which comes not from God believe the living word but like thy fore-fathers the Jews who were deaf and blind as thou art who could read the Scriptures but the word of God had no place in them who could heare Christ speak literally with their carnall ears but could not hear his word Thy next proofe is as confused as the rest thou sayest thou would prove the Scriptures to be the word of God out of our own mouths and yet thy accusation against us is that we deny the Scriptures to be the word what conjuration is this that thou art about who canst prove

an affirmative out of a negative if our mouths doe prove the Scripture to be the word then stop thy mouth who charges us for to denie it But thou goest on with thy divination because we say the Scriptures are a declaration of the mind of God from that thou devinest thus That which declares Gods will is Gods word But the Scriptures declares Gods will Ergo It is Gods word As much as if thou hadst said Balaams Asse declared Gods will Ergo Balaams Asse is Gods word Which I think few will affirme yet such is thy divination and thy proofe in this like the rest of thy Book And when thou hast thus done thou belyest us againe saying that we say the Scriptures are not Gods word which is false for where the Scriptures are given by Inspiration of God it is Gods word but when the Devill or the Infidell steals them out of a Book he gets but the letter which he wresteth to his own destruction in denying the Spirit therewith and opposing Christ the light of the world which is the next thing thou settest upon And though thou be made to confesse that Christ is the true light that lighteth every man that coms into the world yet would thou make people believe it is not sufficient and calls it an Errour for us to say that this light is able to teach a man to worship God rightly and yet here confounds thy selfe and confesseth that its nature and property hath such attendency that is sayest thou as if God had said I have done that which is sufficient for thy purgation and thus thou applyest to the light of Christ to prove that it is not sufficient and in plaine words afterwards confesseth that Christ had done that which is able to enlighten and informe the world and this light thou confessest he hath enlightned every one withall and yet calls it an Errour for us to say that his light is sufficient Hath not thy imaginations blinded thee herein doth this true light enlighten every man that cometh into the world and is able to enlighten and informe the world into the knowledge of it and hath it such a nature property and tendency and yet must be an errour to say that it is sufficient to guide in the wayes of God It seemeth thou mayest say a thing and confesse it for truth who denies it in the life but if we say it that live in it it is counted an Errour The next piece of thy divination is that if every man have received this light then every man hath received Christ for he is that Light and in this here is a double deceit First in seeming to deny what before thou confessed that Christ enlightens every man that comes into the world Secondly because Christ is that light thou wouldst make that light Christ which many have the light of Christ which lets them see their evill deeds but not believing and following never come to the new Birth or Christ formed in them but walk in darknesse though they see the light that doth reprove them thou bringest that Scripture John 11. 10. But if a man walk in the night he stumbleth because there is no light in him And with this thou wouldst deny that the light is in every man when as the words hath relation to his way which is true in the way of the wicked there is no light yet in the heart of the wicked there is a light which condemns his wicked wayes who is gone out of the light into the darknesse and so being in the night stumbles because the light is not in that way but in that which reproves that way so that he that is in selfe is in darknesse yet doth the light shine in the darknesse which manifests the deeds of darknesse and reproves them and this shall all men witnesse to whereby thy deceite shall be daily more laid open Thy next thing thou wouldst prove that the day of Judgement is not past I say my desire is that thou wouldst mind it and prepare for it by leaving thy lying and deceit and wicked envy for a wofull day will that be to thee if thou be found in thy sin pleading for it unrepented of all this heap of confusion in thy Book which thou hast raked together to cast upon the Truth will then lye heavy upon thy Head For thy Water Bread and Wine c. I have spoken to formerly which may stand till it be disproved Thy next work is to prove respect of persons a thing which God never commanded but hath often forbidden neither canst thou find one Scripture that commands it yet thy impudency is such that thou perverts that Scripture Lev. 19. 32. into a lye and faith it is Thou shalt honour the person What a standing Rule is this word of yours that the deceite can thus turne quite into another thing then it speaks the Devill likes such a word as he can turne every way to plead for his kingdome With it he can plead for his pride though it condemns pride For respect of persons though it forbid respect of persons For swearing though it say Swear not at all Nay is there any thing so vile which his subtilty in his servants cannot plead for therewith no wonder though in all his he thus contends for that to be the word which he can thus wrest for if the creature once believeth that to be the word which God hath written in their hearts which the Devill cannot change then is the Devill undone and his kingdome broken and his many wayes of deceit hedged up when that one way and one word comes to be known which word didst thou minde would judge the lyar in thee who faith we make it a note of our infallible ministry that we doe not reverence men and charges us with denying honour and respect due to Parents Masters Husbands and Wives c. a thing which never entred into our hearts but what our words and live doth witnesse against Another lie thou tellest That thou dare say not one of ten of us shall give the same Answer to a Question To which I say There is little that may be a reproach to the truth but thou dare say it But upon what ground doest thou say this having never proved ten of us therein and denying the Spirit of Prophesie in thee must it not be by the Divination of witchcraft by which thou can foretell such things as never was seen nor heard and indeed the more to be suspected because it is a lie Thy next thing thou would prove that Christ hath two bodies This I know That Christ is the head of one body and that Christ I own but how he hath two bodies and but one head or how thou wilt sever Christ from that body which ascended which is the head or make that into a head and a body I shall not here dispute with thee it serveth me to know that that body is my head and of the

true light and lighteth every man that cometh into the world but not within so that our Errour must be that we say the Light of Christ is spirituall and within and herein we have the witnesse of all those who had the faith of Christ and thereby knew what this light was which was in darknesse though the darknesse comprehended it not as Joh. 1. 5. which shined out of darknesse in their hearts which treasure they had in Earthen vessells 2 Cor. 4. 6 7. Ephes 5. 13. with many other places and much it matters not what the Infidell who hath denyed the faith of Christ saith against it Some Queries thou askes which I shall answer so far as there is any thing worth the answering in them 1. First then what need is there of Scripture to declare the mind of God I answer they testifie hereof against such as thee 2. Whether that Light will shew that the Virgin had a Son 3. Can it shew that Christ dyed and rose againe in three dayes 4. What favour it was to the people of Israel to have the written Law c. 5. Whether men by the Light within could have known Christ should have been born at Jerusalem c. To all which I answer all these things and much more was made known by the Light before they was written in the letter but being believed generally there is no such necessity that he should make a declaration of those things againe in this Nation but that he should Minister the substance to wit Christ in Spirit which none can know without this Light though they have the letter no more then they could know Christ when he came who read in the letter that he was to be born at Bethlem who might as well have askt him who bad them believe in the Light of the world that they might be the children of Light but would this Light have told us that there was an Ark builded by Moses and a Temple builded by Solomon and how many years it was a building and many other visible things which they too much doated on already and here was thou not blind might thou read thy selfe and more of thy Generation and see that the end of thy Queries is but to discover thy selfe where thou art Thou askes further Whether the Name of Christ may be known to all the world by the Light within them without Scripture or tradition I say yea and by nothing else without it for the Name of Christ consists not of Letters and sillables but in righteousnesse mercy and judgement c. which Name none can know but by the Light of the world though many of you read your Bibles who are the greatest enemies to his Name such is your knowledge as appears by your practice Other Questions thou askes the substance whereof is What then needs our books or our preaching is not that superfluous I say our preaching serves to direct people to the light which such as thou who are Reprobate to the Faith of Christ and knows not the mystery thereof which is held in a pure conscience have led them out from and some of our Book serve to manifest your folly and wickednesse before all the world but hadst thou not been partially blind thou might ask thy selfe this question and thy Brethren who would make the letter the Light and would hold it forth onely for sufficiency what need your divining from it if it be sufficient of it selfe but thy faith teacheth not that doctrine to doe as they would be done by Thy fifth errour thou chargest us with is touching John Lawson being accused for saying the day of judgement was past and this is an accusation like the rest thou says he goes about to prove it in Sauls Errand so he having answered for himselfe it may be seen whether he own it or no by them that read that book For those words wherewith he is accused I own not The sixth Errour thou sayest that George Fox said he was the eternall Judge of the world and thy proofe is the Priests Petition and that George denies it not as thou sayes but saith the Saints shall judge the world to which I say to what George saith herein we own but the Priests accusation and thy proofe we deny Thy seventh errour was that George Fox said I am the way the truth and the life and this thou proves like the rest as thou proved foaming at our meetings because he denies it not but saith the old Man cannot endure to hear the new man speak and so doe I say so also for where Christ speaks in Male or Female he is what he testifies himselfe to be if thou canst receive it thou may Thy eigth Errour is that Fox said that he which took a text of Scripture and made a Sermon of it was a Conjurer and this thou would disprove by Phillips speaking to the Eunuch to which I say those are not Georges words as thou speaks them but the words of the accuser neither did George speak of what Phillip did who was immediately sent of God nor of what was done in that generation by them who owned the spirituall Light of Christ but of what is done now by such Diviners as deny the Faith of Christ and his Call and Spirit in them and what such raiseth must needs be conjuration who denyes the faith and Spirit of God Thy ninth Errour is that he saith the Scriptures are carnall and this is a lye like the rest for he saith the letter of the Scriptures are carnall for a Scripture is known before the letter was though the blind see it not and that Scripture we doe not say is carnall but own it to be the word of God and our Rule who doe not walk after a carnall rule though not contrary to the letter Thy tenth Errour is against one Leonard Hill a name I neither know nor own and so I passe it by as not necessary for me to contend about The eleaventh Errour is John Lawson againe that he said he had been in Hell and is now in Heaven to which I say though it seem an Errour to thee yet this is plaine that the Saints have witnessed being in Hell and in Heaven also as is plain in Scripture which thou that calls it an error art ignorant of as is plain in these Scriptures with divers others Jonah 2. 2. Psal 16. 10. Ephes 2 6. 2 Cor. 12. 2 4. And they was not in an errour who witnessed this nor he if it was true in him Thy twelsth Errour is that we say we are perfect and sin not and this thou repeats over againe in thy eighteenth Error and calls it a lye but the lye being thine own twice told over I leave it with thee till thou prove it yet doe we own perfection and believe in it which is not that we never had as thou falsly sayest but as we have received Christ so we have received perfection in whom all selfe boasting is

excluded Thy thirteenth errour is that James Nayler said that none can come unto God or Christ but who come to perfection whereby it seems thou denies God or Christ to be perfection for be they granted to be perfection then none can come to them but they come to perfection But how blinde thou art who calls this an Errour is easily seen thy faith and thy doctrine who preaches against perfection but the Ministers of Christ preached to present every man perfect which thou preaches gainst Eph. 4. 11 12 13. Col. 1. 28. So we rather chuse the Apostles doctrine which standing in the faith of God which believes perfection though by the Infidells it be called Errour then imbrace a doctrine of Devills that doth not believe perfection neither was there ever any of the children of God in thy work pleading against perfection and for sin dwelling in them Thy fourteenth Errour is that I say that at all seasons whensoever the Saints either eat or drink they were to have Communion with the body and blood of Christ in their eating and drinking I say this must needs be counted an Error with the belly Gods of the world who deny the faith of Christ and so know no word in them to sanctifie the Creature such is not like to have Communion with Christ but with the lust who serve their own bellies who are at the table of Devills are not like to have Communion with the Lord but are observers of times and carnall things and therefore to such it must needs be counted an Errour so often as they eat and drink thereof to doe it in remembrance of him till he come if this be received for a truth the Devill knows there is no place for the Lust and so would hold it for an errour that he might feed without fear Thy fifteenth Errour is that James Parnell denyed all Baptismes but that of the holy Ghost so that to own the Baptism of Christ and to deny all else with thee is counted an errour but did not the Apostle erre also who said we are all baptized into one body by one Spirit and witnessed one faith and one baptisme and said he was not sent to baptize and this he witnessed who had the faith of Christ which thy faith counts an Errour And thou goes about to prove your water by questions and crooked consequences as from Circumcision and the like but cannot find one Scripture that doth command it with water after Christ sufferings or otherwise then Johns ministry wherein all may see your foundation who say the Scripture is your Rule but cannot find one plaine Scripture for that which you so highly worship and would impose upon all as a matter of salvation but must flye to your consequences to hold up that which you would make people believe is an everlasting Ordinance for which you can shew no command neither from Letter nor Spirit Moses in all his house left his Ordinances upon better grounds then consequences and meanings and that he which is much more faithfull should come short is not believed by those that know him but suppose that any doe yet own that forme of Baptisme used by the Disciples in John Ministration with that they must deny your tradition which misseth theirs both in Call Manners and Find as I have often proved for he that faith the Letter is his rule must not misse it in any thing for it they break it in one he is guilty of all much more you that misse in the maine Thy sixteenth errour is that we preach that every Man in the world hath a light within him and yet one of us thou sayest asked a Minister of the Nation whether he had that light which doth enlighten every one that comes into the world so that to ask a question which is a known Truth to prove the party asked with thee must be an Errour and this thou hoyseth up with great swelling words as though it were the greatest Errour that ever was in the world and sayes herein we are the sad spectacle of Gods spirituall judgements that ever any age hath heard of and many such loud exclamations against us for this great Errour But what thinks thou of Christ who askt the Disciples whom they said he was and yet knew they had this light in them which revealed him to be the Son of God hadst thou then lived and heard it he should not have escaped thy censure besides many other questions that he asked well known to him before the asking of them And thou goes on heaping up a deal of confusion and accuses some body but names not who sor saying that they might as well have burt the Scripture as his writing being given forth by the same Spirit the Scriptures were and by this thou sayest all that thou hast said is justified to which I say the works of the Spirit are known to be the same in their severall measures as ever they was neither is it to be more undervalued then formerly but how that Man saying so if any such there was doth justifie all thy lyes and false accusations cast upon us is a slender proof yet if we will believe thee it justifies all Thy seaventeenth Errour is thy lye where thou sayes we study and devise deceitfull tearmes that look with two faces like the Oracles of the Heathen Gods And the substance of this slander is because that Farnsworth when he was charged to say that Paul was not converted when he spoke those words in the 7 of the Romans he denyes that he doth affirme any such thing and this is counted a great Errour for sayes thou it was a negative as though it was not an affirmative to affirme there is not such a thing as well as to affirme there is such a thing and this thou aggravates as a great offence whereby thou shews in plainnesse to all that are honest that thou canst find nothing of matter against us therefore thy mischievous minde having a mind to slander hath the thing to make out of thine own bosome wherewithall to doe it Thy eighteenth Errour is that which thou call our lying First in that we say we are perfect and this is a lie of thy own and shall rest upon thy head till thou prove we have so said The second is that we say we are immediately sent of God which is a truth in them who are so sent so to say and the lie is thine own till thou prove the contrary The third lie is that one Fox said the world did not know his Name and yet after saith known by the Name of George Fox I say the Saints who have over come have a new name which none knows but he that hath it yet all the knowledge the men have of them is by a carnall name and this is true and witnessed onely the lye is in thy own ignorance The fourth lye is that Edward Burrough said his Book was sealed with the Spirit and this is

must wait for another to perform to which thou art an enemy in thy Book for that which leads to tell a lie doth not lead to repent of it That is he wherewith thou a long time hast been a Sayer and not a Doer And if to the light of Christ in thy conscience thou doe not turn which shewes thee this thy wickednesse by it to be led to repentance to the Pit thou wilt goe in this thy wickednesse notwithstanding thy fained Promise So the many lies and false accusations which doth not so much strike at the truth I passe by as not willing to multiply words to clear that which our practise proves innocent in all places through the Nation where the light is followed and either that must clear us or words will not so let the Lord who is our life plead for us Onely some few Queries I shall Propound to lay open Truth and error to which if thou be as ready to answer in simplicity as thou hast been to slander in subtilty that which lies hid may sooner be brought to light The Queries are as followeth I. WHose Spirit is that which men understands the Scriptures with and tryes Spirits with who are without the Spirit of God seeing thou affirms that a man may understand Scriptures and try Spirits without the Spirit of God and whether that triall be not it which condemns the just or hath God set up such a tryer to judge yea or no II. Seeing thou confesseth Christ to be the true light and that he lighteth every man that cometh into the world but denyes that light to be within shew in plainnesse where he doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world and not within and how they come by it and seeing thou sayest every man hath it how have they it and not within III. Seeing thou confesseth that the Heathen hath a light that reproves them of sin but not within shew where it is what it is whether the light of Christ or no and how they came by it IV. Whether that which reproves the Heathen when they sin be the same that reproves thee when thou sins and the rest who call your selves believers and whether it be in the same place and of the same nature or wherein doth it differ as to place nature and operation V. Whether your light who call your selves believers be within you or no and if within how you came by it when you were in darknesse as the moving cause and if without how doth it enlighten you and not within and where doth it abide for you that is not in you VI. Whether that light which is not within can enlighten the heart and under standing whether the Gospel be not hid to all who have their hearts and minds blinded and whether it be not the work of the God of this world to blind hearts whether such as deny the light within and preach against it least people should believe in it be not in his work and Ministry yea or no VII What kind of faith thine is who hast denyed that faith that is the gift of God and how thou came by it which God did not give thee and whether that faith which is not of God be not of the Devill yea or no VIII Did ever any of the Saints professe a faith which they received not of God and whether thy contention be for the faith once delivered to the Saints and if so from whom hadst thou it seeing thou denyes it to be the gift of God IX What faith is that which pleads for sin and preaches against perfection that believes that they can never be free from six nor come to perfection while they are in this world show the Saint that so believed and so preached X. Was not the end of Christs Ministry for perfecting the Saints and is not that Antichrist whose Ministry is against it or is Christs Ministry now changed against what it was XI Whether that faith that is not of God can receive the things of God or can be imputed for righteousnesse to him that hath it and is not his righteousnesse of himself whose faith is of himself or can it be otherwise if it be the righteousnesse of faith XII Whether he that hath not received the faith of God be not an Infidell or is he to be believed in matters of God and Christ and being of a false faith is it safe to believe what he saith against the Children of light XIII Whether it be not plain nonsense to say that Christ doth enlighten every one that comes into the world as thou doest confesse in thy Book and then to deny that light to be in that enlightens XIV Whether Paul was rightly called and endued to the Ministry who was not sent to Baptize and whether it was not a signe that John was decreasing and Christ increasing that being left out in Pauls Command who was called after Christ was offered up or cannot a man now be a Minister of Christ and not sent to Baptize XV. Seeing the last of Matthew is your strength for water baptism I ask whether one may not be baptized into the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost without being dipped in carnall water also whether all you dip in the water you doe baptize them into the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost if the first of these be yea and the latter no then I conclude carnall dipping is not the thing XVI Doth every one that reads the Bible hear the word of God or hath every one the word that hath a Bible and what difference is there betwixt the ministration of the letter now and that in the Jewes time both denying the light and the faith which is the gift of God and will this save now without the ministration of the Spirit more then in their dayes XVII Whether that righteousnesse that a man reads of in the letter sets himself to doe the like without that faith which is the gift of God or the leading of the light of Christ the ministration of the Spirit be the righteousnesse of faith or selfe righteousnesse Now I appear to every honest heart that I have not proposed these Queries out of curiosity or to dive into things above the measure of a Christian but that which every one ought to know who professes not so high as thou doest So that if it be not thy subtilty least thou shouldest be discovered thou needest not be letted from answering in plainnesse that thy faith may be known what it is thou contends for that so simple ones may not be beguiled with fained suttlery instead of faith for if the faith be false that profession stinks and the Professor thereof is not to be believed in whatever he saith touching Religion FINIS