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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87231	The Quakers quaking: or, the foundation of their deceit shaken, by scripture, reason, their own mouthes at several conferences. By all which will appear, that their quaking, ministery, doctrine, and lives, is a meer deceit, and themselves proved to be the great impostors of these latter times: / by Jeremiah Ives.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1656 (1656)	Wing I1103; Thomason E883_3; ESTC R207296	36,620	64

and trembles is a Saint of God and doth it by the impulse of the Spirit of God The next thing I shall speak to is their Doctrines And though I confess they preach somewhat that is true yet in this they are but the greater Deceivers For what Heretick is there but preaches some truth and what counterfeit silver will pass in pay if there be not some appearance of real silver So these men to put off their bad ware which other wise would not vent do usher it in with many truths But that the Reader may see that All is not gold that glisters take notice in the first place that these men will allow nothing to be call'd God's Word but Christ This is their first Errour in Doctrine which I thus prove 1 Error First because God hath but one onely-begotten Son Jesus Christ but he hath many Words That he hath but one Son Jesus Christ I prove from Joh. 3.16 1 Cor. 8.6 Eph. 4.5 That he hath more words then one I prove from Deut. 8.3 Man liveth not by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God Prov. 30.5 EVERY word of God is pure Jer. 23.36 the complaint is that the false Prophets had perverted the WORDS of the living God So that from this Scripture this Argument may be drawn against this Error viz. If God have plurality of words then somewhat else may be called the Word of God beside his onely Son Jesus Christ But God hath plurality of words Therefore somewhat else may be call'd Gods Word besides his onely begotten Son Jesus Christ And the fallacie of the Argument for the contrary is thus detected Jesus Christ is called the Word Ergo Nothing else must be call'd the Word but Jesus Christ May not a man as well say that Jesus Christ is call'd God's Son Ergo No one else may be call'd Gods son but Jesus Christ When we read that men are the sons of God by saith and Joh. 1. As many as believed to them be gave porter to become the sons of God though I confess they are not sons in the same sense that Christ is so likewise nothing is call'd the Word of God in the same sense the Scriptures call Christ so but himself Again the Scriptures call Christ a vine a door a shepherd but would it not be madness to say Where-ever we read of a vine a door or a shepherd it must be understood of Christ Their next Errour that I shall name 2 Error and which is a consequence of the former is this That they say the Scriptures may not be call'd the word of God and in many of their books they blame the Ministery of the Nation and others for saying the Scriptures are the word of God when Christ calls the written Law of Moses the word of God which he said the Pharisees had made of none effect by their traditions Mark 7.13 But see the horrible deceit of these men The Scriptures they say must be call'd a declaration of the minde of God but at no hand they must be call'd the word of God see their book call'd A cloud of witnesses in the Title-page and also in pag. 3. of the same Book toward the later end of it and the beginning of pag. 4. you have these words But the blinde guides the Priests of England that Preach for Tythes hire gists and rewards they do teach the people and say Hearken to the Word of the Lord as it is in a chapter and a verse and many other passages which I forbear to cite because it is a thing so generally preached and received by them viz. That the Scriptures are not the word of God but a declaration of the minde and will of God See now their deceit they would make the world believe that it detracts from the honour of Christ to call the Scriptures the word of the Lord and the word of God when in truth the designe is to raise up the honour of their own Pamphlets by the ruines of the Scriptures reputation in the hearts and mindes of men And therefore do but behold their impudence The holy Scripture say they must not be call'd God's word no no but see if they do not give the same titles and as great to their own bumbasted contradictious lying Pamphlets And for the proof of this let me give thee a recital of some of them among many They have one book called Love to the lost which is a Title proper to none but God and Christ yet this is given to one of their books Another is called A discovery of the wisdom from beneath which none but the word of God can do by their own confession many a time Another book is called The power and glory of God shining out of the North. Is not this Title as great as if they had call'd it the word of God Read and judge you whose light is not darkness Another is call'd The Royal law and Covenant of God which is as great a Title as the word of God Another is call'd News out of the North written from the mouth of God Another is call'd The Vials of the wrath of God upon the seat of the man of sin Another is call'd A warning from the Lord to Teachers and people Another is call'd A true prophecie of the mighty day of the Lord. Now if by the mighty day of the Lord they mean that there shall be such a day which they can hardly do because some of them have said The day of Judgment is past already but if that should be their meaning it could be no Prophecie for what prophesying is it for men to foretel such a thing shall be if others have said it before them for do not many by the writing of the Scriptures believe there shall be such a day yet these cannot be said to prophesie of it But if by prophesying of the mighty day of the Lord they mean to foretel the very day then they presume to know more then Christ or the Angels or any man according to that of Mark 13.22 But to proceed They have another book that is called A Trumpet from the Lord sounded out of Sion Another is call'd A whirlwinde of the Lord given forth as a flying fiery roll I would from all this ask but one question Whether these Titles which they give these books are not equipollent to the Title we give the Scriptures viz. The Word of God and yet these men blame us for this and give as great to their own Pamphlets But what shall we say they stop not here but at last call their own writings The Word of the Lord and A Word from the Lord as you may see in a book of theirs called A prophecie of the mighty day of the Lord p. 13. and the like in a book called The vials of the wrath of God p. 57. p. 9. p. 10. and in a book called News out of the North p. 10. and p. 24.

a lye The next thing I have to present the Reader with 18 Error is their Lying and that first in saying They are perfect when all the fore-cited imperfections are found in them besides many more as shall be named The second Lye is that they say They are immediately sent of God which nothing is more false The third Lye is That one Fox writ a book and in the Title-page said The world did not know his Name and yet in two several places of the said Book he subscribes himself Known by the Name of GEORGE FOX The fourth Lye is That one Edward Boroughs said His Book was sealed by the Spirit of the Eternal God and being demanded to prove it he asked If any thing he writ in it was false it was replyed to him again If he proved that God sealed his Book we would believe all that was in it which I am sure he can never do while the world stands A fifth Lye is That James Nayler in a written Paper which he sent to me calls me shameless man for tempting him to deny the Lord when I said no such thing but that I did say to which he alludes in his Paper was That either he should prove he was immediately sent of God as he profest or else that he should renounce it and thereupon he calls me shameless man in tempting him to deny the Lord. A sixth Lye is That James Nayler in the said Paper saith If he had come in his own Name I would have received him as he saith I did plainly confess I do believe this man hath bent his tongue like a Bowe for lyes for I dare appeal to all the company which I believe were at least two hundred if I said any such thing A seventh Lye is that being charged with writing such falsities in his Paper by a friend that read it and knew what was in it he at a Meeting at the Bull and Mouth at Aldersgate in London did utterly deny it and while the said friend ran from them to my house which is not farre to fetch the said Paper to prove that he had writ those untruths that he had charged Nayler with in the mean time he slips away and was gone If these are tokens of perfection sure one may as well say the Devil is perfect but sure if these men are perfect in any thing it is in the art of deceiving lying and equivocation These are but few of those legions of Lyes and Inconsistencies that their Writings and Preachings are stust withall as the judicious may perceive that will but strictly weigh what they either write on speak in the balance of the Sanctuary Having now been in the place of a Respondent to shew the Fallacies and Non-sequiturs and absurd Contradictions of the Arguments that these men bring for their Quakings and Infallible Preachings together with other their vain Conceits of the Scriptures and of the Ordinances of our Lord Jesus Christ I shall now assert something briefly by way of opposition to these mens conceits and endeavor the proof thereof from Scripture and Reason as God shall enable me And first of all I shall affirm That the written Precepts and Promises of God together with his Threatnings of Judgements and Exhortations to amendment of life they are and ought to be esteemed the Words of God That his written Commands may and ought to be so called I prove from Mark 7.10 for Moses said Honour thy Father and Mother c. which was the writing of Moses Exod. 20.12 And Christ saith their making this written Law of none effect in doing nothing for their Father or Mother was To MAKE THE WORD OF GOD of none effect by their Tradition John 10.35 and Jer. 36.2 5. And Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah all the WORDS OF THE LORD and ver 8. He was reading in a BOOK the WORDS OF THE LORD Again the Apostle calls the Law of Moses which contained Precepts Promises Threatnings and Exhortations The Oracles or WORDS OF GOD Rom. 3.2 But it is objected The written Word did not make the World To which I answer That if they mean the Ink and Paper we make one minde with them But yet further I reply That the same God whose Word made the World and whose Word preserves the Fabrick of the World did speak those words that are written for the admonition of the World and therefore they may truly be call'd Gods Words according to the fore-cited Scriptures and many other that may be named Again it is objected That the Word of God abides for ever but the Writings may be burned To which I answer That this doth not prove that which they would have viz. That the Commands contained in the Scriptures may be burned or any of Gods Promises to him that sears him or his Judgements upon them that do not fear him No these remain like Mount Sion that shall not be removed As for example the Words of God were writ upon Tables of Stone yet the breaking of the Tables did not put a dissolution to those words that were contained in them but they were as truly to be observed as if the Tables had been whole Reader I should not urge these as arguments to those that disown the Scriptures in words at length but sure I am that they will serve to confute these men that in words own them yet in works deny them Again I prove the Scriptures as aforesaid to be the VVord of God out of their own mouthes though it may be they may deny the consequent for they though they deny them to be the VVord of God yet they say they are a declaration of his Minde and VVill. VVhence I thus argue That which declares Gods VVill is Gods VVord But the Scriptures declare Gods VVill Ergo it is Gods VVord The major I prove out of their own mouthes for they all say that Nothing can inlighten but the Word and that Nothing can bring us to know Gods Minde but the Word though it may be they mean somewhat else by Word then I do yet that matters not for if nothing can manifest Gods Minde but Gods VVord and the Scriptures by their own confession do so then it follows That by their own Principles if they have any that the Scriptures may be so called though in words at length they do deny it By which you may see how miserably these men contradict themselves in saying The Scriptures are not Gods Word and yet say They are a declaration of his Will when at another time they say Nothing can declare Gods Will but his Word which they say the Scripture is not Secondly I do assert That the Light which every man hath doth not direct him into the worship and service of God and though Christ be the true Light that inlightens every man that comes into the world or that doth that which in its nature and property hath such a tendency for so the Scriptures speak sometimes Ezek. 24.14

lay out hundreds of pounds to print so many Books when the world if your Doctrine be true might have known as much without them 9. Whether this is not as great superfluity and prodigality as wearing any thing that is not needful viz. your paying great Rents for places to meet and preach in when you say you know so much by the Light within you as you need no Teacher as appears by a Book of James Nayler's call'd A Discovery of the first Wisdome pag. 8. where he makes it the character of the first man or carnal man to know God by relation from others either by word or writing And to this purpose they apply 1 John 2.27 and Heb. 8.11 and in thee same page he makes it a note of a Spiritual man that he knows God from his dwelling-place and not by relation from others c. 10. Whether there is not the like vanity in your spending your precious Times and Moneys to go about the countreys if the Light which is within the countreys could have shewed them the same things without you 11. Whether you would not count it as vain a thing as wearing any thing that is needless is counted by you if any of you should be at great cost to carry a Bushel of coals to Newcastle where there is coals enow already 12. Whether the Moneys that is thus needlesly laid out would not be better bestowed where is more need viz. upon the hungry and the naked The fifth Error I shall name is 5 Error That there was one Jo Lawson accused for saying The day of Judgement was past which he in stead of disowning of the charge goes about to prove it from Matth. 12.20 and saith not one word touching the untruth of it See a Book of theirs called Sauls Errand to Damascus pag. 35. where you have that very Errour objected against them with their answer to it I should not have charged this Errour upon them all it being but the writing and the saying of one man did not all of them received and own it as appears by the printing of it in a book wherein many of them are concerned Now is not this a consequent of that devilish Doctrine taught by Hymeneus and Philetus which said that the Resurrection was already past and destroy the Faith of some 2 Tim. 2.17 18. For if the Judgement-day be past already Resurrection that goes before Judgement must be also past The sixth Errour I shall name is That George Fox 6 Error whom all of them own professeth himself to be the Eternal Judge of the World and being charged with it by the Petitioners of the County of Lancaster makes no denial of any part of the Charge but saith The Saints shall judge the World See pag. 6. of a book of theirs call'd Sauls Errand to Damascus The seventh Errour I shall mention is That George Fox 7 Error whom they all own said He was the Way the Truth and the Life and being charged with this by the Petitioners aforesaid he denies not a syllable of it though it is observable that many things that the said persons do object they in their Replies do deny that ever they said so yet to this he makes no denyal but saith The Old-Man cannot indure to hear the New-Man speak which is Christ. This you may finde to be his answer in pag. 7. of Sauls Errand to Damascus The eighth Errour I shall charge them with 8 Error is That the said Fox said That he which took a place of Scripture and made a Sermon of it or from it was a Conjurer and his preaching was Conjuration This he is charged with by the men aforesaid and in his printed answer denies not one syllable but saith He that raiseth the Spirit out of the Letter is a Conjurer * See p. 7. of the last mentioned Book First doth not the Scripture say Acts 8. that from that place of Scripture which the Eunuch was reading i. e viz. Philip preached unto him Jesus and did not the Eunuch reade the Letter and did not Philip preach the Christ was not that the Spirit as your selves notion it and yet you say They that raise the Spirit out of the Letter are Conjurers Oh horrible Profaneness The ninth Errour is 9 Error that being charged with saying The Scriptures are carnall In the book and page last mentioned he answers The Letter of the Scripture is carnall How now George what is the Letter of the Scripture carnal and do not you tell the people that you walk according to them But why should you walk after a carnal Rule since you profess to be such a Spiritual man But by this the world may see if their Candle be not put out that this cunning Fox can run with the Hare and hold with the Hound In the ninth page of the last mentioned Book 10 Error one Leonard Hill is charged with saying Christ had no body but his Church which he denies not but saith There is one Body and one Spirit even as ye are called The eleventh Errour is 11 Error That John Lawson said pag. 35. of Sauls Errand to Damascus that he had been in Hell but now was in Heaven Of this he is charged and denies it not but cites that place out of the second of Jonah where Jonah saith Out of the belly of Hell he cryed to the Lord Doth this prove Lauson was ever in this Hell or in any other but he may come there before he thinks of it if he repent not and his Heaven he is in will not shelter him The twelfth Errour is 12 Error That they say they are perfect and sin not See a Book of theirs in answer to Hen Haggar and Tho Pollard pag. 9. where they charge the men aforesaid for lying because they said The Quakers boast of perfection and yet in the same page they say They own perfection but do not boast of it Oh strange What that men should be telling and preaching of their perfection and in print proclaim they own it and yet call men Lyers for saying that they loast of it I pray resolve me this Question If any man should by word or writing or both publish his estate to the world that he is thus and thus rich would not your selves call him a proud boaster especially if he shall boast of that he never had and that you do so I shall make it manifest in due place The thirteenth Errour is that James Nayler said 13 Error that None can come to God nor Christ but they that come to perfection See Naylers Book call'd Love to the Lost pag. 23. If this be true Paul was not come to God nor Christ for he saith Phil. 3.12 Not as though I had already attained or were already PERFECT And in the seventh of the Romans the same Apostle saith once and again That sin did dwell in him and doth not Christ call sinners to come unto him

the Familists who were great perverters of the right wayes of the Lord in the dayes of Luther and Calvin especially in the Netherlands and many places in Germany as these are in our dayes to our grief we may speak it in many places in England The CONCLUSION I shall now conclude with a word or two of Caution and that first That every one would compare what I have writ with holy Scripture and then judge whether I have said any thing of these men that is either harsh or unsavoury save what the harshness and unsavouriness of their Opinions and Practises call for and then I hope none will think amiss of me for calling them Lyers Deceivers Blasphemers c. if they shall sinde that I have prove them such both by Scripture and Reason and their own Sayings and Writings I do confess that it is very common among men to call those that differ from them in Opinion Lyers and Deceivers c. though they are not able to prove them so But though this be an evil to call that an Errour or Blasphemy that one cannot prove to be so yet this doth not hinder but that I may lawfully call that an Errour and Blasphemy which the Scriptures call so in expresness of terms As for instance The Scriptures say He that denieth Christ come in the flesh is Antichrist Now though I may not call a man Antichristian that differs from me in some circumstances and disputable Points of Doctrine yet he that shall say He is equal with Christ or that shall say of himself That he is the Christ The Comforter The Way the Truth and the Life and the Eternal Judge of the World as these men have said of themselves surely such men may be call'd Deceivers Lyers and Blasphemers without breaking the Law of Love and Charity But if it shall be doubted whether the things I charge them with be true or no let me tell thee that all that I have writ concerning them are either such things as have fallen from their own Mouthes before hundreds of witnesses or else such things as have been faithfully collected out of their own Writings and therefore let me caution thee whoever thou art to reade their Books especially those places to which I have referred thee before thou judge I have wronged them This I am sure thou must do before thou canst judge righteous Judgement in the case And if thou doest but take pains to inform thy self thou wilt finde That the Erorrs I charge them with are either such as themselves being formerly charged with could not deny as appears by their printed answers to them or else they are such as they have in words at length positively afferted as will be found among their Writings in the books and pages I have cited I confess many things have been reported to me concerning the evil manners of some of the Teachers of this way and of the badness of their lives and though doubtless this hath not been without ground yet I do forbear to mention any thing of that kinde First because the miscarriage of some particular persons doth not prove the whole to be guilty unless it be in matters of Doctrine which they all receive and own And secondly because the Errours of mens lives and conversations do not infallibly prove the Errours of their Doctrine inasmuch as some men do walk contrary to what they make profession of yet let me tell thee one thing by the way viz. That though Errour in life doth not prove Errour in judgment yet Errour in conversation doth prove Errour in conversation my meaning is If the question be about Errors in Doctrine then the goodness or badness of the lives of them that profess it doth no way resolve the question certainly though it may probably but if the question be about Perfection in life which these Quakers say they have attained to then let me tell thee That any Errour in the lives of such proves infallibly that they are not such as they profess to be viz. Perfect men My last reason why I do not insist upon the particular evils that relate to the conversation of these men is Because I know that the proof thereof is not so easie for the Reader to attain because possibly many of them may live hundreds of miles from the places where this may come and also because that they will not believe any thing that is witnessed against any of their way but shuttle it off with saying That Christ and his Apostle were evil spoken of and persecuted c. But let me tell thee Reader whoever thou art That this is a vain plea for what though Christ and his Servants shall be evil spoken of without cause yet this proves not that therefore every one that is evil-spoken of is Christs Servant for thousands there are that give just cause to be evilspoke of daily and may not these men excuse themselves by saying Christ was evil-spoken of and do not the Papists Priests many of them at this day excuse their wicked and beastly practises with many of their Nuns who have vowed Chastity by saying That Christ was evil-spoken of and so are they for being his servants when indeed there is cause enough to speak evil of them though there was no cause to speak evil of Christ In like manner do these Quakers shuttle off all evil that is objected against any of them by saying They are belyed and suffer falsly therefore to prevent any thing of this kinde I charge them with nothing but what is either daily preached among them or else what may be found in their printed Books I have one Caution more that I shall give to my Antagonists if any of them shall undertake to write any thing in answer hereunto and that is That they lay aside all such un-man-like reasonings wherewith many of their Books are stuffed in telling their Adversaries They are Sots and Fools and Blinde and That they are of the Devil and in Darkness and speak the first wisdome from Beneath and That they are Lyers c. till they have first proved what hath been writ to be false and remember how foolish a thing it was counted to say Bellarmine lyed before he was proved a Lyer And therefore let what I have spoken be answered with words of truth and soberness and if by the words of truth it shall be made manifest that I have spoken any untruth I shall with the like readiness of minde make a publick acknowledgement of it to the world And I would also intreat That there may be no carping about words thereby to avoid the force of any argument or question that is proposed but that every thing whether Words or Arguments be orderly and directly spoken to that so the Readers on both sides may judge on which side the Truth lyeth as I question not but they will easily do Thus having discharged my conscience towards God in the publishing these Lines out of love to the