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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	prove_v	scripture_n	tradition_n	5,001	5	9.5879	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08330	A true report of the priuate colloquy betweene M. Smith, aliâs Norrice, and M. VValker held in the presence of two vvorthy knights, and of a few other gentlemen, some Catholikes, some Protestants : with a briefe confutation of the false, and adulterated summe, which M. Walker, pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete, hath diuulged of the same.	S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.; Walker, George, 1581?-1651.	1624 (1624)	STC 18661; ESTC S461	30,866	65

signifieth to redeeme as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke Redime doth in Latin hence Peric signifieth a Redeemer Purkan Redemption and so Theodotio so Vatablus so S. Ierome and so all others expresse the word wherfore either all texts are falsified or all are true If all be false the Hebrew is tainted with corruption as wel as the Greeke and Latin if all true your translation is inexcusable in discording frō the truth of all originalls from the version of all the Auncients Syr Edward Harwood with others These Disputations about the Hebrew text are aboue our capacity an● filter for the Schooles I pray you descend to some more profitable matter and easier for our vnderstanding M. SMITH Vpon this motion only I ceased to rip vp the residue of Protestant corruptions but not because neyther I nor my Companion had any more to say as M. Walker according to his fashion peruersly relateth for infinite other deprauations of theirs are obuious and apparent as the fraudulency they vse in translating one and the same Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Traditio For in such textes as mention good and holsome Traditions they in lieu of Traditions read Ordinances where the Scripture speaketh of such as be naughty or friuolous they in hatred of our Apostolicall Traditions carefully set downe the right word Traditions The same deceit they practise in expressing the Hebrew word Sheol Hell For where it may import a third place besides Heauen Hell they warily turne it into Graue Gen. 37. v. 35. Osee 13. v. 14. but where it cannot be meant of any other then of the dungeon of the damned there they rightly translate it as in the 15. of the Prouerbes v. 24. Hel beneath I might haue vrged how they iuggle with the word worthy or make worthy against the merit of workes how they change Iustifications into Statutes Iustice into Righteousnes against inherent Iustice how they sometyme forsake the Hebrew and retire to the Greeke as in the 9 of Prouerbes v. 2. Wisdome hath mingled her wine because the Hebrew word Masecha wholy fauoureth the ancient mingling of water and wine in the Chalice which the Fathers vrge as necessary and Protestants vtterly neglect they fly to the ambiguity of the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which may signify to powre out as well as to mingle so did they alwayes read before his Maiesties Correction Otherwhiles they leaue the Greeke and haue recourse to the Latin as Act. 13. though the Greeke be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they sacrificing to our Lord as Erasmus translateth it yet your translation still runneth according to the Latine they ministring vnto our Lord because you cannot abide that word although written by God which doth any way relish of the Sacrifice of the Masse These and a thousand such of your guilefull sleights I might haue alleadged howbeit to condescend to the reasonable motion of Syr Edward Harwood and the rest I willingly omitted them and returned to prooue the second part of my first Antecedent which you denied The Antecedent was this The Word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours The former part is already prooued by the manifest adulterations of your Bible before mentioned The second Part. That your men also are subiect to errour I conuince by the confessiō of M. Reynoldes M. Whitaker and the most learned Protestantes of our tyme who expresly write that the true Church which they suppose theirs to be may erre and all her Pastours in some points of fayth euen necessary to saluation Therfore your men your Preachers and Pastours are subiect to errour M. WALKER I graunt that the true Church may erre for a tyme insome one fundamentall point necessary to saluation this I affirme of the Protestant Church of our Church of England Ground what you can vpon this M. SMITH Though some of the Catholikes heerevpon cryed out We haue inough inough let vs leaue of our dispute yet to giue more full satisfaction to the Protestāt Gentlemen who perceaued not so soone the absurdity of this Paradoxe or folly of M. VValker in granting that very part of my Antecedent which before he denyed I proceeded a little further and argued thus against him If your Church may erre in one point necessary to saluation it may as well erre in another and so cā propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth Which inference though M. VValker denyed and with many cauillations laboured to diuert yet it euidently followeth as I thus declare That Church which hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth But your Church which may erre now in one point now in another at least for a tyme hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true Therefore your Church can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth For seeing the Articles in which your Church may erre are not specified by God nor knowne to your followers they may iustly feare and suspect least those she now proposeth be some of them in which she may erre But with feare and suspition no fayth can stand nothing can she propose which ought vndoubtedly to be belieued as S. Augustine in the like case most excellently discourseth saying How can he be belieued who thinketh he may sometyme tell a lye for perchance he then lyeth when he c●mmaūdeth vs to beleeue him So you that hold your Church may sometyme erre haue cause to doubt least then perchance she erreth when she commaundeth you to follow her doctrine If cause to doubt no cause to obey no cause to credit her Nay it implyeth cōtradictiō we should with diuine fayth giue credit vnto her For by fayth we are assured that the thing she teacheth cannot possibly be otherwise then we belieue By doubtfulnes or suspicion we mistrust they may be otherwise Els why do we doubt Why do we suspect Therfore it is a manifest implicancy and irreconciliable cōtradiction that fayth and doubtfulnes should cōsist togeather that we should be vndoubtedly persuaded of the truth proposed yet stagger and misdoubt of the truth therof as you haue iust cause to do as long as you maintayne that your Church may deceaue you Besides to prooue out of the former Paradoxe that your Church is not the true Church I framed these Syllogismes That Church which may erre for a tyme in a fūdamentall point necessary to saluation hath no certainty for that tyme. Yours is such Ergo it is no true Church Againe That Church which may erre for a tyme in a fūdamentall point necessary to saluation hath not sufficient meanes of saluation for that tyme. Yours is such Ergo it is no true Church M. WALKER These

sēse betokneth such a breaking as hateth destroyeth quite extinguisheth the thing it crusheth or breaketh a sunder So it signifieth in those very places which M Walker alleadgeth Breake off the golden ear●ngs c. to wit with abolishing with destroying them to that changing them to another vse And much more in Genesis where it is not as he most fraudulently corrupteth it Thou shalt breake off his yoke c. but as the Protestant Translatiō readeth Thou shalt breake his yoke from off thy neck So that Peru● breake is referred to the Yoke as before to the Earings off is added by phrase of speach Likewise the very tearme of yoke declareth how he was to breake it off as a combersome and hatefull burden with dislike and detestation to be eased of the same No such manner of speach is vsuall in the place we handle and the case it selfe is far otherwise For a ma may breake off or interrupt a busines for a tyme which he liketh approoueth and meaneth after when opportunity serueth to prosecute and accomplish Therfore though your English Coppy beareth the sound of a small corruption yet the treachery is great and deprauation most viperous because it taketh away all reference to the demolition redemption and expiation of sinnes by satisfactory workes of Pennance and Almes-deedes which the true meaning of the word enforceth and the Holy Ghost therby intended To conclude if the Hebrew word had bin doubtfull as it is not then the Originalls of Greeke and Latine might haue directed you without seeking a new sense and faygned signification of your owne Syr Edward Harwood and M. Walker Not so for we haue nothing to doe with the Greeke and Latin text they are both corrupted M. SMITH And is not the Hebrew also corrupted especially of late since the addition of the pricks This was the true occasion of excepting against the Hebrew text no other was the exception no other my base estimation or reiection of it Though M. Walker hath so bad a conscience as to misreport them all and so virulent a pen as vpon his owne lying report to accuse me of vanity inconstancy malice and wickednes ioyned with wi●full ignorance But these are mild and modest wordes in respect of other most opprobrious speaches and spitefull tearmes which elswhere flow from the bitternes of his hart to which I now answere once for all The disciple is not aboue his Maister nor the Seruant aboue his Lord If they haue called the Good man of the howse Beelzebub how much more them of his houshold It is no dishonor for me to be reuiled with the seruants of his house if it be no ignominie for M. Walker to be one of their Reuilers Howbeit as soone as he had disgorged those vnciuil tearmes he peremptorily writeth M. WALKER It is the iudgment of all the best learned both Iewish Rabbins and Christians that the pricks vowells accents were from the beginning M. SMITH What Of all the best learned Little is your reading or great is your forgetfulnes for the best learned without exception say the contrary as not only Helias Leuita but Rabbi Dauid Kimki whome Caluin and Beza much commend and diuers other Rabbins are of the same opinion cited by Galatinus who euidētly proueth this point out of their owne writings with whome Genebrard Lindan Sixtus Senensis Arias Montanus and innumerable others accord The wordes of Arias Montanus be these The Grammarians striue about the antiquity and first inuenters of these vowels and pricks and the strife as yet remayneth in debate Some referring this thing to the tyme and industry of Esdras others to the Schoole at Tiberiades famous ●o● the resort and meeting of learned men Howsoeuer thi●●e that is constant and certayne amongst all the inuention o● the vowells pricks not to be of equall standing and antiquity with the Hebrew Consonants Lo then this is constant and certayne amongst all M. WALKER But looke Deuteronomy c. 17. v. 18. and there it is plainly testifi●d that there was a booke of the law called Mishne which signified double because it was the law written in the double forme both with letters and pricks Another Priest M. Smiths Companion You shew your selfe very ignorant for Mishne doth not signifie in that place the Originall Scriptures nor holy Scriptures at all but the deposition or repetition of the Original and prime law conteyned in Exodus Leuiticus and N●meri which are only part of the Scripture called Deuteronomium as S. Athanasius S. Augustine and Theodoretus witnes Now to say that the whole Scripture is called by the name of Mishne is as absurd as to mantayne that the whole Scripture is called Deuteronomy And out of that bare word Mishne to inferre the Scriptures to haue beene primarily writtē with pricks is most ridiculous because euen in the place you cite it is as much distinguished from the first and primary Scripture as a coppy from the original a patterne from the Prototypon and is expounded ioyned with Thorah a doubled or second Law M. WALKER You contradict you● selfe in affirming that Mishne signifieth the doubled law which is the Scripture and yet not the originall Scripture M. Smiths Companion No good Sir It is no more a contradiction to deny Mishne Thorah or Deuteronomy to import the Scripture indeterminately and yet to graunt it to be a part of the Scripture then to deny you to be a true Minister of Christ and yet to graunt you to be a Minister for Mickra indeed is the common word by which the Iewes expresse the Scripture M. WALKER I answere that the Scripture hath diuers names it is called Thorah Chethab Mickra and Mishne M. Smiths Companion Are not you ashamed after the labour of so many months study to write so impertinently for Thorah signifieth only part of the Scripture or Pentateuch Chethab any writing as Esther 8. v. 8. the kings letter is called Chethab as for Mishne you alledge no text or testimony to prooue that it betokeneth the Scripture But see Pagnine and you shal find that the word neuer expresseth any Scripture at all but with the word Thorah as Mishne Thorah it betokeneth a repetition or second law as Deutero 17. 18. Iosue 8. 20. But where Thorah is left out it signifieth only the second Looke Esther 10. 3. 4. Reg. 22. v. 14. ibid. c. 23. v. 4. and so M. Walker bewrayeth his little skill in Rabbins who though he flourisheth in his writing with the muster of some of theyr names and Commentaries yet he could not remember at the meeting to cite any one of their authorities M. SMITH Thus you see M. Walker how you wil be alwayes flinching from the matter though you be still beaten backe to your owne shame and confusion To returne therfore from whence we are digressed If the Greek and Latin be adulterated in the former place of Daniel the Hebrew is alike corrupted because Peruc properly

themselues are infallible for as long as any of these closely adhere to the word of God are guided by his doctrine and follow his direction so long they cannot erre And what hath your Church no more priuiledge or freedome from errour then Iewes then Turkes then Diuels M. WALKER Yes because Iewes and Turkes adhere not to the word of God they follow not the truth we doe M. SMITH Doe you because you say you doe Will not they say the same haue as good warrant as you But how shall we know you follow the truth what proofs alleage you To chaleng it thus without proofes seeing it is the matter controuerted between vs is Petere principium that is miserably to begge the argument we handle or to giue that for a reason which is only in question both most ridiculous and hissed out of all schooles Therfore M. Walker was so wary as to conceale in his Sūme this inference of mine and the foolish reply or desperate Non-plus of his Moreouer to say your Church cannot erre as it cleaueth close to Gods Word speaketh and teacheth according to it or as long as it swarueth not from thence is nothing els thē to auouch though in other wordes that it cannot erre as it cleaueth to truth speaketh and teacheth according to truth or that it cannot erre as long as it erreth not which is as idle as the former was foolish because to adhere to Gods word is to adhere to the truth to swarue from thence is to runne into errour So that this answere is nothing to the purpose no way able to satisfie my demand for by asking of you Whether your Church may erre or no I demaund whether it be so assisted by God and guided by his holy spirit as it must needs cleaue to his word it cannot depart from it in deliuering any point of faith What answere you to this is your Church thus inerrable or no M. WALKER I haue told you alreadie how it may erre and how it may not M. SMITH And I haue refuted what you sayed If you haue nothing els to answere to my Interrogatories answere me a little to a Syllogisme or two I shall propose by which I meane to proue euen by this which you haue graunted that the Protestants Church of England is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. And thus I frame my argument That Church which hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. But the Protestant Church of England hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered Therfore it is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. M. WALKER I denie the Minor M. SMITH I proue the Minor The word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours Therfore the Church of England hath not the word of God truly preached and infallibly deliuered M. WALKER I deny the Antecedent M. SMITH The Antecedent hath two parts the first of them I declare by induction Malachy 2. v. 7. where all true copies haue The lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge and the law they shal● require of his mouth you corruptly reade The lippes of the Priest should keepe knowledge and they should require the law of his mouth contrary to the Hebrew text which insteed of shall keepe hath Iism●ru insteed of shall seeke Iebakkesu contrary to the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contrary the Latine which is custodient and requirent all being of the Future tense and Indicatiue moode which you haue changed into the Preterimperfectense of the Optatiue or Subiunctiue moode altering therin both moode and tense of set purpose to gainsay the infallibility of Christs visible pastours who lawfully succeed in the Apostles roome and to patronage an errour or rather Heresy of your owne That the Priests Prelats of Gods Church may erre in doctrine and so the people not bound to require the law at their mouthes M. WALKER We haue not corrupted the Hebrew text for the true meaning of the Holy Ghost is perfectly deliuered by our Translation M. SMITH But answere me directly Are not the Hebrew Greeke and Latin wordes all in the future Tense Do they not all import shall keepe and shall require And haue not you altered both the tense and moode Is it not so what say you M. WALKER Though the wordes be in the future tense yet wee haue kept the true sense because the future tense in Hebrew by reason of vau conuersiuum may sometime stand for the preterimperfect tense of the Optatiue Potentiall o● Subiunctiue moode as our translation hath therfore it is no● different nor irregular from the Hebrew which is the Originall M. SMITH But this is a meere collusion for heere is no Vau conuersiuum in that place nor can there be as all that are cunninge in the Hebrew can tell so that this shift will not serue your turne nor that other of keeping the sense For I accuse you of corrupting the text But to alter the tense to alter the moode to alter the word of the Holy Ghost is to corrupt the text to change the diuine characters written by the finger of God Therfore your Translation is guilty of this change and corruption Otherwise if adulterers of Scripture may iudge of the sense where shall you find any adulteration what Heretike can be conuinced of corruptiō For aske the Arians aske the Valentinians aske Marcion who for paring or gnawing away many places of Gods word was called Mus-Ponticus the mouse of Pontus aske any of these Corrupters they will all answere they keep the sense bring as sound arguments as you do for the maintenance therof for such is your proofe M. WALKER It was ●euer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place or by these wordes to teach that the law should awayes be taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastours who succe●d Moyses or the Apostles locally in the church by a continued succession M. SMITH Heere againe you fall to Petere principium for we proue it was his purpose because his wordes enforce it And haue you no other meanes to disproue it then by denying it was his purpose because he did neuer purpose it And why did he neuer purpose it Because is not agreable to the purpose of your Hereticall phrensie Though it be consonāt agreable to Gods sacred doctrine vttered vnfolded in diuers other places as when he sayeth that his spirit his wordes shal not depart out of the mouth of his Prophets and their seede and seeds seede for euer That he who heareth the Pastours of the Church heareth him That if any controuersy arise amongst inferiours they shall come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stocke and do whatsoeuer they shall teach according to the law It is consonant to these texts and sundry the like to which