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A63577 A true narrative of the Portsmouth disputation, between some ministers of the Presbyterian, and others of the Baptist, persuasion, concerning the subjects and manner of baptism held in Mr. Williams's meeting-place there on Wednesday, Feb. 22. 1698/9. The managers for the Presbyterians were, Mr. Samuel Chandler of Fareham. Mr. Leigh of Newport in the Isle of Wight. Mr. Robinson of Hungerford in Berks, moderator. For the Baptists were, Dr. William Russel of London. Mr. John Williams of East Knoyle in Wiltshire. Mr. John Sharp of Froome in Somersetshire, moderator. Transcribed from two copies taken at the dispute; the one by Mr. Bissel Town-Clerk of Portsmouth, and the other by Mr. Samuel Ring. Revis'd and publish'd by Dr. William Russel. Bissel, Mr.; Ring, Samuel.; Russel, William, d. 1702. 1699 (1699) Wing T2806A; ESTC R215290 67,061 90

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Plunging or Overwhelming the Person baptized into the Water and raising him up again out of it 2. That this is the only right way of performing this Ordinance I prove thus If there were no other way practised by John the Baptist Christ nor his Apostles but what did represent a Burial and a Resurrection then ours is the only right way of Baptizing But there was no other way practised by John the Baptist Christ nor his Apostles but what did represent a Burial and a Resurrection Ergo Ours is the only right way of Baptizing Mr. Chandler You are to prove that because Baptism is significant of a Burial and Resurrection therefore it must be done only by Dipping Dr. Russel By this Mr. Chandler grants that Baptism doth signifie a Burial and Resurrection and I have already proved that therefore it is the only right way of Baptizing that we practise because there was no other practised in those first Times of the Gospel And till he give an Instance to the contrary my Proof stands good But I shall farther prove it by this Argument If there can no Instance be given that ever the Apostles did Baptize other ways than by Dipping then ours is the right Way of Baptizing But there 〈◊〉 be no Instance given that ever the Apostles did Baptize other ways than by Dipping Ergo Ours is the right way of Baptizing Mr. Leigh I deny the Enumeration in your Argument for it doth not follow that because the Apostles did not practise it any other way that there were no others that did For there were divers other Ministers in those Times besides the Apostles that did also Baptize Dr. Russel By this you grant that the Apostles of our Lord did not practise Baptism any other way than by Dipping And to prove that no others did use a different Practice I thus argue If we have no Account in Holy Scripture that either the Apostles or any other Ministers in those Times did Baptize any one Person other ways than by Dipping then Dipping is the only right way of Baptizing But we have no Account in Holy Scripture that either the Apostles or any other Ministers in those Times did Baptize any one Person other ways than by Dipping Ergo Dipping is the only right way of Baptizing Mr. Chandler I can shew there is another way that it might be done and not by Dipping and that from the Etymology of the word Baptizo for it signifies also to wash Dr. Russel I remember what Alstedius saith in his Lexicon Theologicum Having before been speaking about the Etymology of that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tantum significat immergere non lavare nisi ex consequenti and therefore it signifies to wash only in a secondary and remote sense because things that are dip'd may be said to be wash'd But the proper and primary Signification of Baptizo is to dip for it comes from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mergo immergo to dip to plunge to overwhelm to dip into c. Mr. Chandler I own that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies mergo immergo But I can shew great probability that many in Scripture times were Baptized by pouring a little Water on the Face and there is no Certainty that Dipping was ever used Dr. Russel How doth that appear Mr. Leigh We will argue on a Probability It might be done other ways than by Dipping and a Probability is the most you can pretend to for Dipping I require you to prove that Dipping was certainly intended in those places you bring for it and then I will prove that Dipping was not intended but only an Application of Water to the Person Dr. Russel The first Instance I shall give is the Baptism of our Saviour as it is exprest in Mark 1. 9. Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilce and was baptized of John in Jordan The words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which words do certainly signifie that he was Dipped into ●●rdan Mr. Leigh The Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies in as well as into and is often so Translated in the New Testament Dr. Russel That it may sometimes so signify where the Scope of the place may shew it I will not contend But you know very well that where it is joined with an Accusative as it is here it signifies into And I can shew that our Translators have so rendred it in many places in the New Testament And it would many times be Nonsence to understand it otherwise I will give you some Instances of it in the room of many that might be given As in John 3. 17. God sent not his son into the World to condemn the World but that the World through him might be saved Here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred into for the Words in the Greek are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and I hope you will not deny that God sent Christ into the World And in 1 Tim. 1. 15. Christ Jesus came into the World to save sinners c. There 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is also Translated into And I hope you will not deny that Christ came into the World to save Sinners It 's joined with the same Words as in John 3. 17. before recited And in Luke 4. 16. it 's said He went into the Synagogue on the Sabbath-day and stood up for to read Here again it is so rendred for the Words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into the Synagogue And the eyes of all them that were in the Synagogue were fastned on him ver 20. which could not have been had he not gone into the Synagogue as it 's manifest he did And I hope you will not deny that Christ went into the Synagogue but you may do it with as much colour of Reason as to say he was not Dip'd or Plunged of John into the River of Jordan when the same Word is used in the same Sense And besides if we do but consider those multitudes that John Baptized in the River of Jordan and other places where there was much Water we have no reason to doubt of the Truth thereof Mr. Leigh We allow that what cannot be now used without being burdensome might be more commodious in that day and observed in that hot Country of Judaea when there was so many came to John to be Baptized and therefore it may be that they went out to Rivers But I will argue upon a Probability It is well known in those hot Countries the People wore Sandals and they might go into the Water a little way to wash their Feet Now I offer this fair Interpretation They might step a little way into Jordan for Ease and Refreshment and then John might pour a little Water on them Now allow ●ut the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signifie to wash as we can easily pr●●e it is often so taken in Scripture and I offer to all the Company whether this be not a fair Interpretation of the place That John washed him with Water he going a little
way into Jordan Dr. Russel Notwithstanding this Flourish of a pretended Probability you know that the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth properly signifie to Dip as all the great Lexicographers and Criticks do tell us and that its proper and native Signification is to Dip into Water or to Plunge under Water and that I could give you many Instances of out of Scapula Stephanus Schrevelius and many others And they also tell us That if it be used for Washing it is in a remote Sense and if it be taken in its primary Sense it 's such a Washing as is by Dipping or Plunging into the Water and being covered therewith But that you may see I am not singular in my Opinion I will shew you that your own Expositors do thus render it and some of the greatest Men among the Protestants that ever wrote since the Reformation of which I have made a Collection out of their own Works because I would not wrong them I shall begin with the Testimony of those learned and judicious Divines of your own Perswasion who were those that continued Mr. Peol's Annotations upon Matth. 3. 6. These are their own words Were Baptized that is Dipped in Jordan Upon John 3. 22 23. There John was Baptizing because this Aenon was a Brook or River that had much Water It is from this apparent that both Christ and John Baptized by Dipping the Body in the Water else they need not have sought Places where had been a great plenty of Water Before Dr. Russel had read this last Sentence wholly out the Presbyterian Ministers even Mr. Leigh himself as well as the rest of them fell a hissing so loud and set others of their Party to make a noise also by their ill Example that altho Dr. Russel went on with his Work yet the Noise was so great that it wholly drowned his Voice that he could not be heard Whereupon Mr. Sharp the Moderator call'd out aloud to still this great Noise and spoke to this effect What is the reason of this Hissing Gentlemen are you not asham'd You preach to others the Doctrine of Sanctification and Self-denial and to act thus your selves I am asham'd to see it I pray good People take no notice of it now When Dr. Russel perceived they would not forbear this Hissing and uncivil Carriage he forbore to read any farther And when Silence was obtained he addressed himself to the Ministers after this manner Sirs What is the matter with you Must I n●● be permitted to recite your own Authors and some of the gre●test Men that have written since the Reformation Although their Testimony against us is of little value because they are Parties in the Controversie yet when the clear evidence of Truth shall enforce a Confession from their Pens that we are in the right it is then a great Testimony for us Here is first of all Pool's Annotators certain learned and judicious Divines that say in that matter as we do and they are Men of your own Party There is also Dr. Hammond saith the same Here the Doctor was interrupted again and they cried out What do you tell us of Dr. Hammond What have we to do with Dr. Hammond Dr. Russel Why certainly Gentlemen Dr. Hammond is not thus to be despised upon his Judgment about a Greek word I have also Mr. Baxter Wollebius Tilenus the Learned Perkins and Luther also who was against Sprinkling and practised Dipping and so did the rest of the Divines at Wistenburgh Mr. Calvin also although he did allow a Liberty of Sprinkling in cold Climates yet he saith as I do as to the Signification of the word Baptiz● that it signifies to Dip and was so used in the Primitive Church There is also the Dutch Translators they do every where render the words that are used to express this Ordinance by as we do and they call John the Baptist Joannes de Dooper John the Dipper And I know not of any place but it 's so exprest And these are Presbyterians Men of your own Religion Upon this one of the Ministers said What! do you understand Dutch Dr. Russel said Yes he understood it but he could not speak it readily They replied We will try that for we have a Gentleman here that understands Dutch very well Dr. Russel You may ask that Gentleman if you think fit he can satisfie you that what I say is true But they had 〈◊〉 Discretion than to call the Gentleman out to confute themselves Dr. Russel I have also the Testimony of the Dutch Annotators who say the same thing And these also are Men of your own Persuasion And to add no more I have also the Testimony of the Assembly of Divines sitting at Westminster And I hope they may be of some credit with you But they would not suffer him to proceed in the Reading thereof to the People but cried out We are Protestants and will not pin our Faith on other Mens sleeves Dr. Russel What! not the Assembly of Divines I thought though you had no regard to my words you might have had some regard to the Assembly of Divines You know I do not wrong these Authors and therefore what must the People think of you to oppose your selves thus against these great Men and such multitudes of them that are of your own Persuasion as many of them are and the rest some of the greatest Men since the Reformation Surely the People cannot take it kindly at your hands to reject the Authority of these Men in a matter of this Nature Their Answer was We do reverence these Divines but adhere to what they say no farther than it agrees with the Word of God Dr. Russel We say that in this Particular what they have written doth agree with the Word of God Mr. Leigh You have recourse to the prime Signification of the Word whereas we must take it according to its Acceptation in Scripture And I offer it to the Consideration of the Learned whether the prime Signification of the Word be a sufficient Argument in this case And here he makes his Rhetorical Excursions about a Mathematician an Angel a Foot-boy that carries a Letter a Physician c. and concludes thus but we must go to the Scripture Acceptation of the Word And I challenge you to bring one place of Scripture where it must be understood that it was done by Dipping Dr. Russel It is very well Mr. Leigh will allow that I have given the People the proper Meaning of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that its prime Signification is to Dip. Now he might have spared all the rest that he hath said for we do not lay the stress only upon the Etymology of the Word but also upon the concurrent Testimonies of Holy Scripture that it was so understood and so practised by John the Baptist Christ and his Apostles and so represented by the Metaphors made use of as a Burial and a Resurrection to set it forth by as also
Water Matth. 28 19. Onderwyst alle de volckeren deselve dopende in den name des vaders c. Instruct all the People dipping the same in the name of the Father c. Mark 1. 9. Ende wiert van Joanne gedoopt in de Jordaen Ende terstont al 's by uyt het Water opklaem c. And was dipt of John in Jordan And straightways as he climb'd up out of the Water c. Acts 8. 36. Wat verhindert my gedoopt te worden What hinders me to be dipt v. 38. Ende hy doopte hem And he dipt him v. 12. Wierden sy gedoopt beyde Mannen ende Vrouwen They were dipt both Men and Women Rom. 6. 3. Ofte en wetet ghy niet dat soo vele al 's wy in Christum Jesum dedoopt zyn wy in Synen doodt gedoopt zyn Know ye not that so many of us as were dipt into Christ Jesus we were dipt into his Death And the same in Coll. 2. 12. And according to what I find in all other places where this Ordinance of Baptism is mentioned Dutch Annotations On John 3. 23. And John also Baptized in Aenon near Salim c. seeing there were many Waters there that is Brooks or Rivelets or much Water Because they that were Baptized by John went into the Water with their whole Bodies See Matth. 3. 16. Acts 8. 38. And on Rom. 6. 3. We are Baptized into his Death The Apostle seems here to allude to the manner of Baptizing much used in those warm Eastern Countries where Men were wholly Dipt into the Water and remained a little while under the Water to shew that this Dipping into and remaining in the Water is a Representation of Christ's Death and Burial and the rising up out of the Water of his Resurrection Beza on Matth. 3. 11. The Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to die by dipping or washing and differs from the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to drown or go down to the bottom like a Stone Causabon's Annotations Upon Matth 3. He saith Immerging was the proper Rite in Baptism which the Word it self sufficiently declares which as it signifies not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a going down to the bottom without any ascending so not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a swimming like a Cork above the Water but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a going down and coming up again Tilenus a Learned Protestant Writer In his Disputation page 886 889 890. saith Baptism is the first Sacrament of the New Testament Instituted by Jesus Christ The Outward Rite in Baptism is Three fold First Immersion into the Water 2dly Abiding under the Water 3dly A rising again out of the Water And he there shews at large what a most lively Similitude it is of the Sorrows of Christ which he was plung'd into under Divine Justice and of his Burial and Resurrection c. Leigh in his Critica Sacra He saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is derived from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tingo to dip or plunge into the Water and signifieth primarily such a kind of washing as is used in Bucks where Linen is plunged or dipt It implieth the washing of their whole Body The Native and Proper signification of it is to dip into Water or to plunge under Water John 3. 22 23. Matth. 3. 16. Acts 8. 38. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dipping into Water or washing with Water c. And in his Annotations on Rom 6 4. He alludes to the manner in which Baptism was then Administred which was to plunge them in the Water the plunging of them into Water that were Baptized was a Sign of their Death and Burial with Christ Wollebius in his Compendium c. Speaking of their present Practise saith The Action is sprinkling of Water which is usurped in the stead of Dipping And then adds Immersio emersio illustre Symbolum fuit Sepulturae Resurrectionis Christi Their being plunged into the Water and coming up again out of the Water was an Illustrious Symbol of the Burial and Resurrection of Christ Daille on the Fathers Lib. 2. p. 148. saith It was a Custom heretofore in the Ancient Church to plunge those they Baptized over Head and Ears in the Water and cites for his Authority Tertullian Cyprian Epiphanius and others And this is still saith he the Practice both of the Greeks and Russians at this Day And Cites Cassander de Baptismo pag. 193. and yet notwithstanding this Custom which is both so Ancient and so Universal is now abolished by the Church of Rome And this is the reason that the Moscovites say that the Latines are not rightly and duly Baptized because they do not use this Ancient Ceremony in their Baptism Also in that Greek Lexicon Published and Recommended to all for the encrease of Knowledge and explained in English by Mr. Joseph Caryll Mr. George Cockayne Mr. Ralph Vening Mr. William Dell Mr. Matthew Barker Mr. William Adderly Mr. Matthew Mead Mr. Henry Jessey They render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to dip plunge or drown In the passive Voice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be plunged or overwhelmed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to dip in as one doth his Finger in Liquor From this we may allow that the Presbyterian Ministers do Baptize their Fingers when they dip them into the Waters but cannot be said to Baptize the Children because they do not dip them in the Water but sprinkle only a little Water upon their Faces Mat. 26. 23. John 13. 26. Mark 14. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to plunge to overwhelm to wash to dip Mat. 3. 11. John 1. 25. Chap. 3. 26. John 4. 1. 1 Cor. 1. 17. John 1. 31. Matth. 28. 19. John 3. 22. John 4. 2. Chap. 1. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be plunged to be Baptized or Dipt By a Metaphor it 's taken for Affliction Matth. 20. 22. which is familiarly read in Scripture whereby Afflictions are compared to the Gulphs and Whirl-Pools of Water into which those are plunged who struggle with the Miseries and Calamities of this Life Yet they are so plunged that they can lift up themselves again I might also add what those several great Masters of the Greek Tongue us Scapula Stephanus Schrevelius and divers others have said concerning the Etymology thereof But the Learned being so well acquainted therewith I shall only touch upon it They confirming what I have already observed from others They tell us in their Lexicons that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies mergo immergo submergo obruo item tingo quod fit immergendo To dip to overwhelm to plunge or dip in to drown or sink in the Water to overwhelm to dip or plunge to put under to cover clean over c. And that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rantizo is Aspergo to sprinkle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Aspersio sprinkling Now these two different Words do signifie two different Actions For he that is only sprinkled cannot be said to be dipt or plunged under the Water
and to come up again out of the Water when they were never in it as those are said to do in Acts 8. 38. They went both down into the Water and they came up again out of the Water Besides I challenge all the Learned in the World to shew one Instance in the New Testament that these words Rantizo Rantismos or Rantisma are ever made use of by the Spirit of God to express that Ordinance of Baptism by For they know right well that Bapto and its Derivatives are always made use of to express it by And where they are translated into English the one is rendred Dipping and the other Sprinkling But if these Men will keep up a Practise contrary to Holy Scripture and the Judgment of the most Learned Lexicographers and Criticks in the Greek Tongue it 's their own fault and not ours The Assembly of Divines Annotations Acts 8. 38. They went both down into the Water They were wont to dip the whole Body or go down into the Water as here and Matth. 3. 16. And upon Rom. 6. 4. Buried with him by Baptism See Col. 2. 12. In this Phrase the Apostle seemeth to allude to the Ancient Manner of Baptism which was to Dip the Parties Baptized and as it were to bury them under the Water for a while and then to draw them out of it and lift them up to represent the Burial of our Old Man and our Resurrection to newness of Life The late Dr. Gabriel Towerson in his Explication of the Catechism of the Church of England Part 4. pag. 20 c. speaks largely upon it in Vindication of the Rite of Dipping in Baptism of which I shall recite some few Passages and refer you to his Book for the rest Baptism is intended as a Sign and that in respect of the Manner of Application used I mean the dipping or plunging the Party Baptized in it A signification which St. Paul will not suffer those to forget who have been acquainted with his Epistles for which he Quotes Rom 6 4. and Col. 2. 12. It was performed by the Ceremony of Immersion that the Person Immersed might by that Ceremony which was no obscure Image of a Sepulture be minded of the precedent Death as in like manner by his coming again out of the Water of his rising from that Death to Life after the Example of the Institutor thereof Then he puts this Question Whether it ought to be performed by an Immersion or an Aspersion c His Answer is It may be a more material Question than is commonly deemed by us who have been accustomed to Baptize by a bare Effusion and Sprinkling of Water upon the Party For things which depend for their force on the meer Will and Pleasure of him who Instituted them there ought no doubt great regard to be had to the Commands of him that did so as without which there is no reason we should receive the benefit of that Ceremony to which he has been pleased to annex it Now what the Command of Christ was in this particular cannot be well doubted of by those who shall consider First The words of Christ Matth 28. 19. concerning it and the Practice of those Times whether in the Baptism of John or our Saviour for the words of Christ are That they should Baptize or Dip those whom they made Disciples to him for so no doubt the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Baptizontes properly signifies Though if there could be any doubt concerning the signification of the words themselves yet would that doubt be removed by considering the Practice of those Times For such as was the Practice of those Times in Baptizing such in reason we are to think our Saviour's Command to have been concerning it c. there being not otherwise any means either for those or future Times to discover his intention concerning it What the Practice of those Times were will need no other proof than the resorting to Rivers and other such Receptacles of Water for the performance of that Ceremony as that because there was much Water there Matth. 3. 5. John 3. 23. And the Scripture expresly affirming concerning the Baptism of the Eunuch Acts 8. 38. That Philip and the Eunuch went both down into a certain Water which they met with in their Journey in order to the Baptizing of the latter For what need would there have been of the Baptists resorting to great Confluxes of Water or of Philip's and the Eunuch's going down into this were it not that the Baptism both of the one and of the other were to be performed by an Immersion a very little Water as we know it doth with us sufficing for an Effusion or Sprinkling The same is to be said yet more upon the account of our conforming to the Death and Resurrection of Christ which we learn from St. Paul to be the design of Baptism to signifie for though that might and was well enough represented by the Beptized Persons being buried in Baptism and their rising out of it yet can it not be said to be so or at least but very imperfectly by the bare pouring out or sprinkling the Baptismal Water on him But therefore as there is so much the more Reason to represent the Rite of Immersion as the Only Legitimate Rite of Baptism because the Only One that can answer the ends of its Institution and those things that were to be signified by it so especially if as is well known and undoubtedly of great force the general Practice of the Primitive Church was agreeable thereto and the Greek Church to this very Day for who can think that either the one or the other would have been so tenacious of so troublesom a Rite were it not that they were well assured as they of the Primitive Church might very well be of its being the Only Instituted and Legitimate One. I cannot but think the forementioned Arguments to be so far of force as to evince the necessity thereof c. For what benefit can Men ordinarily expect from that which depends for its force upon the Will of him that Instituted it where there is no such compliance in the least with it and the Command of the Institutor as may answer those ends for which he applied it Dr. Barlow late Bishop of Lincoln in his Letter to Mr. John Tombes Printed in his Life-time and owned by him He saith thus I believe and know that there is neither Precept nor Practice in the Scripture for Paedo-Baptism nor any just Evidence for it for about two hundred Years after Christ Sure I am that in the Primitive Times they were to be Catechumeni and then Illuminati or Baptizati And this not only Children of Pagans or Pagans Converted but Children of Christian Parents Nazianzen though a Bishop's Son being not Baptized till he was about Thirty Years of Age as appears in his Life And the like is evident in some others I have seen what my Learned and Worthy Friend Dr. Hammond Mr. Baxter and others say in defence of it and I confess I wonder not a little that Men of such Parts should say so much to so little purpose For I have not seen any thing like an Argument for it I shall add no more but my hearty Wishes That as God was pleased to make the Hearing of the Dispute of such use to several Persons that they were fully convinced by the Grace of God towards them of the Truth of the Doctrine of Holy Baptism and did in few Days after submit themselves to be Dipt in Water upon Profession of their Faith according to the Commission of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ That it may also be of the like use to many others in the Reading of it that so there may be added to the Church daily such as shall be Saved And then my design will be answered in its Publication and I shall count it a sufficient Reward for all my Pains and Labour therein FINIS