same speaker D. B. P. No more can be out of this other Christ vvas made sinne for vs That is the punishment of sinne as M. Perkins gloseth it but the learned say an hoast or sacrifice for sin But vve â—raunâ— that he suffered the punishment For our sinne and say consequently that all sin is pardoned freely for his sake and the paine of hell also vvhich is punishment of sinne but not other temporall paines such as it hath pleased the iustice and vvisdome of God to reserue vnto euery siâ—ner to beare in his ovvne person And after this sort and no other vvas God in Christ reconciling the vvorld to himselfe speaker A. W. If Christ were a sacrifice for sinne I say as before either he was an vnperfect sacrifice which to say were blasphemous or hee wrought our redemption from the whole wrath of God and so from all punishment ensuing thereupon vnlesse as I noted before you can shew any agreement to the contrarie betwixt God and Christ. speaker D. B. P. And that S. Paul vnderstood vvell that Christ suffâ—rings did not take avvay ours may be gathered by these his vvords I reioyce in suffering for you and doe accomplish those things that vvant of the passions of Christ in my flesh for his body vvhich is the Church But of this point more vvhen vve come vnto the Arguments for the Caâ—holike part speaker A. W. Wee doe not say that Christs sufferings take away ours for we must still suffer for diuers reasons aboue recited but that his satisfaction leaues vs no place for ours we suffer but not to satisfie neither doth Saint Paul say any such thing speaker W. P. Reason II. In sundrie places of Scripture especially in the Epistles of Paul we are said to be redeemed iustified and saued Freely which word Freely doth import that we are iustified and saued without any thing done on our part or by our selues in the matter of our saluation and if this bee so then can wee doe nothing at all that may satisfie the iustice of God for the least punishment of our sinnes If wee satisfie in our owne persons we are not saued freely and if we be saued freely we make no satisfaction at all speaker D. B. P. Novv to M. Perkins second reason In sundrie places saith he of Scripture we are said to be redeemed iustified and saued freely but this vvord freely importeth that vve are saued vvithout doing any thing our selues in that matter of saluation speaker A. W. Ans. Not so good Sir for euen in your owne Doctrine it is necessary that ye beleeue and bring forth the fruits of repentance and that now and then yee make some short prayers and receiue the communion and doe many other odde things in that matter of saluation Wherfore the word freely doth not exclude all our working and suffering in that matter Master Perkins meanes not to exclude all doing on our part but all doing to merit or satisfaction As it appeares by the proposition of his syllogisme in the end If we satisfie in our person we are not saued freely If we be saued freely we make no satisfaction at all Now although all doing be not against free saluation yet all doing to merit and satisfie is directly against it speaker W. P. Reason III. We pray daily forgiue vs our sinnes now to pleade pardon and to satisfie for our sinnes bee contrarie and for all things for which wee can make satisfaction we neede not craue a pardon but we are taught in the foresaid petition wholy and only to vse the plea or pardon for our sinnes and therefore we acknowledge that we cannot make any satisfaction at all speaker D. B. P. If our sinnes be mortall we craue pardon both of the sinne and the eternall punishment annexed and do willingly withall satisfie for the temporall paine as the man who is conuicted of high treason and hauing both his life honor lands and goods pardoned and restored vnto him doth very ioyfully endure three monethes imprisonment and any reasonable fine set on his head speaker A. W. In this as in diuers other arguments namely the very next before you onely set downe the first lines and neuer propound the reason that you may answere to it directly I must doe it for you If we can satisfie for sinne we need not craue pardon for it But we need craue pardon for it Therefore we cannot satisfie for it Your answere cannot well be applied to any part of this syllogisme but in effect it seemes to be as much as if you should denie the assumption not simply but with this distinction that we need craue pardon for the eternall punishment but not for the temporall Then the meaning of that petitioÌ„ in the Lords Prayer is forgiue vs the eternall punishment due to our sins which is to aske forgiuenes by halues Lyra saith We pray that our sinnes may be wholy forgiuen both in respect of the fault and of the punishment And that hee meanes temporall punishment too it appeareth by his reason because so long as that remaines we cannot enter into blessednes Witnes the poore soules that â—â—ie so many yeeres in your Purgatorie speaker D. B. P. 〈◊〉 If our sinnes be veniall then that prayer is a speciall meane both to obtaine pardon of the fault and release of all the paine as witnesseth S. Augustine saying That for the daily short and light offences vvithout vvhich this life is not ledde the daily prayer of the faithfull doth satisfie speaker A. W. You seeme also to denie the consequence of the proposition in your answere about veniall sinnes For which you say we may satisfie by praying for pardon But this is a marueilous strange satisfaction that a man should be said to satisfie by desiring to be pardoned And then wee haue a further meaning in the Lords Prayer that God would accept it as a satisfaction for our veniall sinnes Can any reasonable man imagine that our Sauiour did not teach vs to pray for the full pardon of all punishment due to sinne and yet neuer gaue notice of any such distinction But of this more afterward Austin speakes of the different course that is to be held in repenting of our sinnes that according as they are greater or lesse so we should be the more or lesse carefull of obtaining pardon Which for ordinarie sinnes may be had by ordinarie praying not as if this made a sufficient amends to God which satisfaction imports but because he lookes not for so much sorrow and care for these sinnes as for those by which if we commit them we shall highly dishonour him and therefore neede to grieue more that wee may the more carefully auoide them If you will draw Austin to the worst wee may not follow him against the truth of the Scripture speaker D. B. P. And that is not true which M. Perkins addes that we are taught in that prayer wholy and only to vse the
Churches is of great authoritie speaker A. W. Origen teacheth that the Church receiued from the Apostles by Tradition to baptize Infants Origen calles the tradition of the Apostles their practise of baptizing infants which hath sufficient ground of scripture though not in expresse words as your Church also holds and as Origen himselfe acknowledgeth by shewing the reason that moued the Apostles to baptise them as hee conceiues though indeede there is also other better warrant for it speaker A. W. Athanasius saith VVe haue proued this sentence to haue been deliuered from hand to hand by Fathers to Fathers but yee O new Iewes and sonnes of Caiphas vvhat Auncestors can yee shevv of your opinion speaker A. W. Where reason failed the Arians on their side and could not moue them in behalfe of the Church Athanasius addes this as a further proofe for their confutation that the doctrine of Christ being one with his Father had been held from time to time in the Church whereas they had no consent of antiquitie for their opinion Yet had he himselfe prooued the point by many certaine reasons out of the Scripture and brought this argument from the authoritie of men for confutation of their false assertion that the former Diuines were not of that iudgement This Athanasius refuteth by the testimonies of Theognostus Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria whom he calles eloquent and one other Dionysius Bishop of Rome and Origen whom he termes painfull S. Basil hath these words VVe haue the doctrine that is kept and preached in the Church partly vvritten and part vve haue receiued by Tradition of the Apostles in mysterie both vvhich be of the same force to godlines and no man opposeth against these vvho hath at the least but meane experience of the Lavves of the Church See Gregory Nazianzen Orat. 1. in Iulian If you will giue me leaue I will defend Basils speech by that which may be gathered out of him viz. that hee holds them things to be by tradition which are not exprest in the Scriptures My ground for this exposition are these words of his Out of what Scripture haue we saith Basil the very speaker D. B. P. S. Augustine some thousand two hundred yeares agoe recordeth the very forme of arguing which the Protestants vse now-a-daies in the person of Maximinus an Arrian in his first booke against him in the beginning Jf thou shalt saith this Heretike bring any thing out of the Scriptures vvhich is common to all vve must needs heare thee but these vvords vvhich are vvithout the Scriptures are in no sort to be receiued of vs when as the Lord himselfe hath admonished vs and said in vaine do they vvorship me teaching commaundements and precepts of men How S. Augustine opposed against them vnwritten Traditions hath been afore declared The like doth S. Bernard asfirme of certaine Heretikes of his time called Apostolici So that most truly it may be concluded that euen as we Catholikes haue learned of the Apostles and auncient Fathers our noble progenitors to stand fast and hold the Traditions which we haue receiued by word of mouth aswell as that which is written Euen so the Protestants haue receiued as it were from hand to hand of their ignoble predecessors old condemned Heretikes to reiect all traditions and to she vnto the only Scriptures speaker A. W. The Heretike Maximinus asked nothing but reason of Austin if he stood vpon the matter and not vpon the termes neither doth Austin find fault with this condition nor could he in reason because as I answered before himselfe appeales to that kind of triall in that very disputation Neither must I saith Austin to Maximinus alleage the Councell of Nice in preiudice of the matter nor you the Councell of Ariminum neither am I tyed with the authoritie of this Councell nor you with the authoritie of that let matter striue with matter 〈◊〉 with cause reason with reason by the authoritie of the scriptures which are not proper to you or me but common to vs both But will you heare him speake more like Maximinus Reade me this saith Austin out of a Prophet reade it out of a Psalme recite it out of the Lawe recite it out of the Gospell recite it out of an Apostle Thence recite I the Church disperst ouer the whole world and our Lord saying my sheepe heare my voyce And a little after away with mens papers let the voyce of God sound And in another place away with our papers let Gods bookes come forth heare Christ heare the truth speaking If these speeches be hereticall we confesse our selues to be Heretikes but so that we haue Austin on our side for an Arch-Heretike Bernard speakes of the Hereticks called Apostolicks not in his 62. but in his 66. sermon vpon the Canticles where he saith neuer a word of their reiecting Traditions No more hath Austin nor Epiphanius where they write of them And if they did reiect traditions it was because they would establish their owne hereticall bookes viz. the Acts of Thomas and Andrew and the gospell of the Egyptians which to say the truth are to be counted traditions because they haue no warrant of the scripture nor are any part of the Canon It were easie for me to turne your owne sentence against you and as all men may see with good reason but it shall suffice me that I haue refuted your slaunders and shewes with sound proofe of arguments and authoritie I consider loosers must haue leaue to speake The eighth point Of Vowes Our consent speaker W. P. Touching vowes this must bee knowne that wee do not condemne them altogether but onely labour to restore the purity of doctrine touching this point which by the Church of Rome from time to time hath beene corrupted and defaced We hold therefore that a vow is a promise made to God touching some duties to be performed vnto him and it is twofold generall or speciall The generall vow is that which concernes all beleeuers and it is made in the couenant both of the law and of the Gospell I will here onely speake of the vow which is made in the couenant of the Gospell in which there be two actions one of God the other of man God in mercy on his part promiseth to men the remission of sinnes and life euerlasting and man againe for his part promiseth to beleeue in Christ and to obey God in all his commaundements All men euer made this vow vnto God as the Iewes in circumcision which also they renewed so often as they receiued the Passeouer and in the newe Testament all that are baptized doe the like And in baptisme this vow is called the stipulation of a good conscience whereby wee purpose to renounce our selues to beleeue in Christ and to bring forth the fruites of true repentance and it ought to be renued so oft as wee are partakers of the supper of the Lord.
to expresse the diuine nature If it be extended vnto all sorts of Images I answere that they were then forbidden to be drawen vpon the Church vvalles but not to be set in Tables vpon the Altar or in any other place The reason is because that Councell vvas holden in time of persecution as appeareth by the twenty fiue Canon of it and then if the persecutor had found out the place of their assembly as they often did those Pictures must needs either haue been defaced by themselues or left vnto the derision and despight of the Heathens And Pictures also painted vpon such poore walles as they had then to their Churches vvould either by the moysture of the vvalles or other incommoditie haue bin quickly disfigured wherefore to the greater honor of such sacred things those graue Fathers thought it not meete to haue them dravven vpon the Church vvalles there being many more meete places for them in the Churches speaker A. W. You come backe now to those two allegations which should and might haue been answered as fitly in their due place Your first answere hath no shew of reason in it For it is absurd to imagine that any Christians to whom onely the Councill speakes would thinke the diuine nature which is spirituall and infinite could be exprest by any picture But if it be possible for the people to be so blind yet the Bishops and Ministers who had the charge of such places must needs know it to bee vnlawfull and vnpossible Besides if they meant to forbid such Images onely why doe they not call them Idols after your distinction why doe not they expresse their meaning more plainly but speake so dangerously to make all Images thought vnlawfull As the word Adored was in your opinion a warrant for Master Perkins to applie that Canon to the Images of God so by the same reason is the other word worshipped which the Councill hath a sufficient authoritie to stretch the decree to all Images that may bee worshipped Your coniectures are meere shifts refuted by the very words of the Councill It is decreed saith the Councill that there may be no Images in the Church what will become then of your Images vpon Altars vnlesse you will remoue your Altars out of the Church That which followeth doth not respect the walles more than any other part of the Church but names them specially vpon which Images most commonly were painted But what a toy is it that you talke of persecutors finding out the place of their assemblie when they could hold a Councill and had Churches to repaire to Could their Churches be vnknowne Further if their care had bin to prouide that the moysture of the walles might not disfigure the Images they would haue said plainly We will haue no Images on Church walles least that which is adored and worshipped come to some disgrace and this would also haue included the other reason of the persecutors despight But it is manifest that the meaning of the decree is this that they will not suffer any Images in Churches because that which is worshipped and adored may not bee resembled by pictures The decree indeede speakes onely of the Images of God to whom only religious adoration and worship is due and may lawfully be performed speaker D. B. P. The second obiection is out of a post-script of Epiphanius letter vnto Iohn Patriarke of Ierusalem in which is written as M. Perkins falsely reporteth that it is against the authority of Scripture to see the Pictures of Christ or of any Saint to hang in the Church Ans. It is there only to see the Picture of a man Novv that he should meane of Christ or of some Saint is only gathered yet M. Perkins makes no bones to thrust them both into the Text euen so do we thinke that some old enemy of Images added that post-script vnto Epiphanius letter Our reasons are because it hath no coherence with the former letter or stâ—e Againe in the seauenth Councell when all that could be found out of antiquity vvas cited against Images no tidings there of this place which if it had bin true might haue bin one of the principall Thirdlie in the same Councell other tvvo places brought as it were out of Epiphanius vvorkes vvere found to be none of his And for Images vvas alleadged that Epiphanius ovvne disciples erected an Image to their Master and set it in the Church vvhich they would neuer haue done if he had taught them to be against the Scripture so to doe speaker A. W. Master Perkins doth not vndertake to report Epiphanius words but his matter which hee performes truly I found saith Epiphanius speaking of a Church at Anablatha in his trauell to Bethel in the Church doore a vaile hanging stained and painted and hauing the Image as it were of Christ or some Saint for I remember not well whose image it was When I saw this that against the authoritie of the Scripture the image of a man hung in the Church of Christ I rent it These are Epiphanius words whereout I obserue first that it is against the authoritie of the Scripture and therfore against Gods Commandement that the image of a man should hang in Christs Church But the Images of al your Saints are such those of the Trinitie too except that Doue for the holie Ghost Secondly I adde that it is rightly gathered by necessarie consequence which is as good euery whit as plaine words that it is against Scripture to haue the picture of Christ or any Saint in the Church For he saith expresly that the Image he saw was the image of Christ or some Saint and that it was vnlawfull to haue any Image of a man there There is no reason to call it a post-script vnlesse euerie last point of any letter not depending vpon the former be a post-script Hierome that translated the Epistle out of Greeke into Latin found no such diuersitie of stile in it neither indeed is it to be found and this latter part is brought in according to the course of writing in the former Epiphanius cleeres himselfe to Iohn Bishop of Ierusalem for hauing ordered a Deacon in his Diocesse he begins his excuse thus I haue heard c. In the latter part he defends himselfe concerning the renting of the vaile and begins that also in the like sort I haue heard This was written and translated three hundred yeeres before that Idolatrous Councill though perhaps they thought it no wisedome to take knowledge of it The other places brought in that Councill were for Images and so allowed of by that Councill and haue since been discerned to be counterfeit as that is of his Disciples no thankes to that counterfeit Synod which dealeth in the same sort also with Basil you afterward alleage the place for Images with Cyrill Ambrose Athanasius Chrysostome Gregorie and the Apostles themselues as I shewed before speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins obserues a special reason
example a crab-tree â—…ocke hath no ability of it selfe to bring forth apples and therefore may be tearmed dead in that kind of good fruit Yet let a sianâ—e of apples be gaâ—ted into it and it wil be are apples euen so albeit our sower corrupt naure of it selfe be vnable to fructifie to life euerlasting yet hauing reâ—iued into it the heauenlie graft of Gods grace it is inabled to produce he sweete fruit of good workes to which alludeth Saint Iames. Receâ—e the ingrafted vvord vvhich can saue our soules againe what more dâ—d then the earth and yet it being tilled and sowed doth bring forth aâ—… beare goodly corne now the word and grace of God is compared by â—ur Sauiour himselfe vnto seede and our harts vnto the earth that receiâ—ed it what meruaile then if we otherwise dead yet reuiued by this liuelyeed do yeeld plentie of pleasing fruit speaker A. W. The question is not whether God can maâ—e a man able to doe good workes or no for of that no mandoubts but what a man can doe by nature to his owne coâ—…ersion Master Perkins saith he is spiritually dead and thereâ—…re can do nothing You answere that he can doe something when God hath quickened him But what can hee doâ— to the quickening of himselfe giue his free consent you say Then it must needes follow that he hath power by naâ—…e to will his owne conuersion for as yet hee hath receiued no grace but onely hath had a good motion made to him or inspired into him by God of which by his owne free wilâ— he takes a liking and so attaines to iustifying grace speaker D. B. P. Hauing hitherto explicated the state of the question and solued such obiections as may be gathered out of Master Perkins against it before I come to his solution of our arguments I will set downe some principall places both out of the Scriptures and auncient Fathers in defence of our Doctrine because he proposeth but few for vs and misapplieth them too God hath appointed to bring them to chuse and like of saluation 〈…〉 Christ. speaker D. B. P. Vnto these 〈…〉 of the old Testament one vnder the law of Nature and the â—…er vnder Moyses law let vs couple two more out of the new Testament The first may be those kind words of our Sauiour vnto the Iewes Jerusalem Jerusalem c. how often vvould I haue gathered together thy children as the hen doth her chickâ—â—s vnder her vvings and thou vvouldest not Which doth plainely demonstrate that there was no want either of Gods helpe inwardly or of Christs perswasion outwardly for their conuersion and that the whole fault lay in their owne refusing and withstanding Gods grace as these words of Christ doe plainely witnes and thou vvouldest not The last testimony is in the Reuelat where it is said in the person of God I stand at the doore and knocke if any man shall heare my voice and open the gates I vvill enter in to him and vvill suppe vvith him and he vvith me Marke well the words God by his grace knocks at the dore of our harts he doth not breake it open or in any sort force it but attendeth that by our assenting to his call we open him the gates and then lo he with his heauenly gifts will enter in otherwise he leaues vs. What can be more euident in confirmation of the freedome of mans will in working with Gods grace speaker A. W. We acknowledge that the fault is wholy in euery man that is not saued but wee denie that therefore he hath power by nature to chuse life when it is offered he failes indeede in doing of that which hee might doe and ought to doe for his owne furtherance to this choise as the Iewes did in refusing to heare to meditate to yeeld to the miracles wrought by our Sauiour Christ and to beleeue the doctrine which they could in no reasonable sort gainsay It was voluntas signi not beneplaciti God offered them the outward meanes of his word not the inward meanes of his spirit for their conuersion which Lydia had To breake open the doore were to vse compulsion to knock is to vse the outward meanes of conuerting a man or if you will to inspire a good purpose vpon which if any man open out of doubt Christ will enter But this doth no prooue that a man vpon this motion can yeeld by the strength of his owne free will which is the point in question speaker D. B. P. To these expresse places taken out of Gods word let vs ioyne the testimony of those most auncient Fathers against whose workes the Protestants can take no exception The fiâ—â—â— shall be that excellent learned Martyr Iustinus in his Apologie who vnto the Emperour Aatonine speaketh thus Vnlesse man by free vvill could she from soule dishonest deeds and follovv those that be faire and good he vvere vvithout fault as not being cause of such things as vvere done But vve Christians teach that mankind by free choise and free vvill doth both doe vvell and sinne To him we will ioyne that hâ—ly Bishop and valiant Martyr Jreneus who of free will writeth thus not only in vvorkes but in faith also our Lord reserued liberty and freedome of vvill vnto man saying be it done vnto thee according to thy faith speaker A. W. I will adde to that worthie company Saint Cyprian who vpon those words of our Sauiour vvill you also depart discourseth thus Our Lord did not bitterly inâ—â—igh against them vvhich forsooke him but rather vsed these gentle speeches to his Apostles vvill you also goe your vvay and vvhy so Marry obseruing and keeping as this holy Father declareth that decree by vvhich man left vnto his liberty and put vnto his free choise might deserue vnto himselfe either damnation or saluation These three most auncient and most skilfull in Christian Religion and so zealous of Christian truth that they spent their blood in confirmation of it may suffice to certifie any indifferent reader what was the iudgement of the auncient and most pure Church concerning this article of free wl specially when the learnedst of our Aduersaries confesse all Anâ—â—quitie excepting only S. Augustine to haue beleeued and taught free will Heare the words of one for all Mathias Illyricus in his large long lying historie hauing rehearsed touching free will the testimonies of Iustine Ireneus and others saith mannerâ—lement â—lement Patriarch of Alexandria doth euery vvhere teach free vvill that it may appeare say these Lutherans not only the Doctors of that age to haue been in such darknes but also that it did much encrease in the ages follovving See the wilfull blindnes of heresie Illyricus confessing the best learned in the purest times of the Church to haue taught free will yet had rather beleeue them to haue bin blindly led by the Apostles and then best Schollers who were their Masters then to
beleeue So that your discourse of the Ministers knowledge and the mans election is nothing to Master Perkins answere speaker W. P. It is answered that this applying of the Gospell is vpon condition of mens faith and repentance and that men are deceiued touching their owne faith and repentance and therefore faile in applying the word vnto themselues Answ. Indeed this manner of applying is false in all hypocrites heretikes and vnrepentant persons for they applie vpon carnall presumption and not by faith Neuerthelesse it is true in all the elect hauing the spirit of grace and prayer for when God in the ministerie of the word being his owne ordinance saith Seeke ye my face the heart of Gods children truly answereth O Lord I will seeke thy face And when God shall say Thou art my people they shall say againe The Lord is my God speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins then flieth from the assurance of the Minister and leaues him to speake at â—andon as the blind man casts his clubbe and attributeth all this assurance vnto the partie himselfe who hearing in Gods word Seeke yee my face in his hart answereth Lord I vvill seeke thy face And then hearing God say Thou art my people saith againe The Lord is my God And then loe without all doubt he hath assurance of his saluation Would ye not thinke that this were rather some seely old Womans dreame then a discourse of a learned Man How know you honest man that those words of God spoken by the Prophet 2000. yeares past to the people of Israell are directed to you Mine owne hart good Sir tells me so How dare you build vpon the perswasion of your owne hart any such assurance When as in holy writ it is recorded VVicked is the hart of man and who shall know it Are you ignorant how Saul before he was S. Paul being an Israelite to whom those words appertained perswading himselfe to be very assured of his faith was notwithstanding fouly deceiued and why may not you farre more vnskilfull then he be in like manner abused Moreouer suppose that this motion commeth of the holy Ghost and that he truly saith The Lord is God how long knoweth he that he shall be able to say so truly When our Sauiour Christ Iesus assureth vs that many be called but few of them are chosen to life euerlasting How knoweth he then assuredly that he being once called is of the predestinate speaker A. W. Your question in skorne to the honest man is nothing to Master Perkins answere he doth not say that those places of the Prophet belong to euery man but that all the elect yeeld obedience to God in the ministerie of the word beleeuing as he commands them and so vpon the knowledge of their beleefe come to the assurance of their saluation As for the doubt that a man may be called and be none of the predestinate he that truly beleeues the Scripture casts it quite away hauing learned of God that whosoeuer beleeues shall be saued which could not bee true if it were possible that a man should beleeue and not be predestinate And it is a truth of God that he which beleeueth knoweth that he beleeueth and he that truly repenteth knoweth that he repenteth vnlesse it be in the beginning of our conuersion and in the time of distresse and temptation Otherwise what thankfulnes can there be for grace receiued speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins saith that he who beleeueth knoweth that he beleeueth Be it so if he beleeue aright and meddle no further then with those things which be comprehended within the bounds of faith But that the certainty of saluation is to be beleeued is not to be begged but proued being the maine question he saith further that he who truly repenteth knoweth that he repenteth he knoweth indeed by many probable coniectures but not by certainly of faith as witâ—â—lâ—â—h that holy person If God come to me as he dot◠〈◊〉 all repentant sinneâ—â— I shall not see him and if he depart away from me I shall not vnderstand it Which is sufficient to make him thankefull yea iâ— he receiued no grace at all yet were he much beholding vnto God who offered him his grace and would haue freely bestowed it vpon him if it had not been through his owne default And thus our first Argument stands in his full strength and vertue that no man can assure himselfe by faith of his saluation because there is no word of God that warranteth him so to doe speaker A. W. If he that beleeues aright know he beleeues and withall is sure that no man doth beleeue but he that is predestinate because that whosoeuer beleeues shall be saued and none shall be saued but they that are predestinate it is out of doubt that assurance of saluation by faith may and must be had Now why or how should it be more impossible to know we repent truly then that wee beleeue truly especially since that and this necessarily and certainly goe together Euery man that hath true faith and no man but he that hath true faith doth repent truly That of Iob is not spoken of mans repentance but of his inabilitie to comprehend the workes of God as the whole discourse shewes neither are the words If ye come to me but as also Arias Montanus and Pagnine expound them Behold he passeth by Vatablus vnderstands the place of not knowing God by his workes Master Perkins asks what thankfulnes there can be for grace receiued if a man cannot know that he hath receiued any As for the coniecture you speake of it is likelier to breed feare than thankfulnes being so vncertaine or at the least thankfulnes by halues because wee can be but halfe perswaded that we haue receiued grace speaker W. P. Obiect II. It is no article of the Creede that a man must beleeue his owne saluation and therfore no man is bound thereto Ans. By this argument it appeares plainly that the very pillars of the Church of Rome doe not vnderstand the Creed for in that which is commonly called the Apostles Creed euery article implieth in it this particular faith And in the first article I beleeue in God are three things contained the first to beleeue that there is a God the second to beleeue the same God is my God the third to put my confidence in him for my saluation and so much containe the other articles which are concerning God When Thomas said Ioh. 20. 20. My God Christ answered Thou hast beleeued Thomas Where we see that to beleeue in God is to beleeue God to be our God And Psal. 78. 22. to beleeue in God and to put trust in him are al one They beleeued not in God and trusted not in his helpe speaker A. W. I aâ—mit all this and adde more that M. Perkins be no loÌ„ger ignorant 〈◊〉 Catholike knowledge of the creede that we must also loue him wiâ—â— a 〈◊〉
righteousnes of Christ neither doth he for that purpose bring this testimonie but to shew what that faith is by which wee are iustified Secondly you accuse Master Perkins for cutting off certaine conditions added on our part by Bernard but where are these conditions added The words you alleage are aboue thirtie lines after those that he cites and depend not vpon them but are spoken concerning the certaintie of saluation So therefore saith Bernard doth this glorie viz. the inward glorie and witnes of our conscience as in the words immediatly before dwell here in our earth if mercie and truth meete together and righteousnes and peace kisse each other For it is necessarie that the truth of our conuersion meete with mercie preuenting it And that afterward we follow holinesse and peace without which no man shall see God This and such like sentences declare that it is in vaine for a man to promise himselfe iustification without sanctification But they answere not the former testimonie which shewes that iustifying faith is a particular applying of Christ by beleeuing the forgiuenes of our sinnes speaker W. P. Cyprian God promiseth thee immortalitie when thou goest out of this world and doest thou doubt This is indeede not to know God and this is for a member of the Church in the house of faith not to haue faith If we beleeue in Christ let vs beleeue his words and promises and wee shall neuer die and shall come to Christ with ioyfull securitie with him to raigne for euer speaker D. B. P. S. Cyprian encourageth good Christians dying to haue a full confidence in the promises of Christ and so doe all Catholikes and bidde them be secure too on that side that Christ will neuer faile of his word and promise but say that the cause of feare lies in our owne infiâ—mities and yet bids them not to doubt as though they were as likely to be condemned as saued but animats them and puts them in the good way of hope by twenty kinds of reasons speaker A. W. Cyprian affirmes confidently that God hath promised euery true Christian immortalitie when he goes out of the world so that if hee beleeue this promise and rest vpon God for the performance of it by Christ he shall certainly be made partaker of it Your comfort is so cold that a man were as good be without it when his hope shall depend especially vpon the good vse of his owne free will in beleeuing and keeping the law of Christ. speaker D. B. P. M. Perkins hauing thus confirmed his owne party why doth he not after his manner confute those reasons which the Catholikes alleadge in fauor of their assertion Was it because they are not wont to produce any in this matter Nothing lesse It was then beliâ—e because he knew not how to answere them I will out of their fromâ— take that one principall of the testimony of holy Scripture And by that alone â—…ly proue that the faith required to iustification is that Catholike faith whereby we beleeue all that to be true which by God is reuealed and not any other particular beleeuing Christs righteousnes to be ours speaker A. W. It should seeme the reason was that hauing as he said before prooued our opinion to be true he doth but adde aâ— argument or two to his former proofe For that it was easie for him to answere those you bring I hope it shall be manifest to all men at the least it had not been hard for him to chuse out some that he could haue answered speaker D. B. P. How can this be better knowne then if we see weigh and consider well what kinde of faith that was which all they had who are saide in Scriptures to be iustified by their faith speaker A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed If the faith of all them who are said in Scripture to be iustified by faith was a beleefe of the truth of all that which was reueiled by God and not any other particular beleeuing Christs righteousnes to be theirs then iustifying faith is so But the faith of all them who are said in Scripture to be iustified by faith was a beleefe of the truth of all which by God is reueiled c. Therefore a iustifying faith is a beleefe of all that which is reueiled by God and not any other particular beleeuing Christs righteousnes to be theirs First we must remember that wee speake of that faith by which they were iustified for else the consequence of the proposition may be doubted of This being vnderstood I denie the assumption and to the proofe of it I answere first in generall that your examples are either effects of iustifying faith or the way and meanes to it but not the faith it selfe speaker D. B. P. S. Paul saith of Noe That he was instituted heire of the iustice which is by faith What faith had he That by Christs righteousnes he was assured of saluation No such matter but beleeue that God according to his word and iustice would drowne the world and made an Arke to saue himselfe and his familie as God commaunded him speaker A. W. Secondly I say for the particulars that this was not the faith by which Noe was iustified For it is apparant that he was iustified before he beleeued that God would drown the world Adde hereunto that this faith of his was also a resting vpon God for safetie according to his promise The Apostle in this and the like propounds not the meanes of iustification but some notable effect of faith Neither doth he declare what this righteousnes of faith was but saith that the righteousnes of faith remained as Lyra expounds it in him onely and his children in which respect he is called the heire of it Chrysostome saith By this he appeared to be iust because he beleeued God speaker D. B. P. Abraham the Father of beleeuers and the Paterne and example of iustice by faith as the Apostle disputeth to the Romans What 〈◊〉 he was iustified by Let S. Paul declare who of him and his faith hath these words He contrary to hope beleeued in hope that he might be made the Father of manie Nations according to that which vvas said vnto him So shall thy seed be as the starres of heauen and the sands of the sea and he vvas not vveakened in faith neither did he consider his ovvne body novv quite dead vvhereas he vvas almost an hundred yeares old not the dead Matrice of Sara in the promise of God he staggered not by distrust but vvas strengthned in saith giuing glorie to God most fully knovving that vvhaâ—soeâ—eâ— he promised he vvas able also to doe therfore vvas it reputed to him to iustice Loe because he glorified God in beleeuing that old and barren persons might haue children if God said the word and that whatsoeuer God promised he was able to performe he was iustified speaker A. W. Od Abraham I answere as
1 the Apostle may be applied to the proposition because they that would be circumcised would be iustified by the workes of the law Whereupon it followeth that he that will be iustified by workes is bound to keepe the whole law For so the Apostle saith of them that will be iustified by circumcision speaker W. P. III. Election to saluation is of grace without workes therefore the iustification of a sinner is of grace alone without workes For it is a certaine rule that the cause of a cause is the cause of a thing caused Now grace without works is the cause of election which election is the cause of our iustification and therefore grace without workes is the cause of our iustification speaker D. B. P. Ans. That election is of grace vvithout vvorkes done of our ovvne simple forces or vvithout the vvorks of Moses lavv but not vvithout prouision of good vvorkes issuing out of faith and the helpe of Gods grace as shall be handled more largely in the question of merits speaker A. W. This answere is not only against the Apostle Paul and Austins exposition of him but also contrarie to Lombard Thomas Bellarmine and generally the learnedst Papists as it shall appeare if this writer giue occasion speaker W. P. IV. A man must first be fully iustified before he can doe a good worke for the person must first please God before his works can please him But the person of a sinner cannot please God till he bee perfectly iustified and therefore till he bee iustified hee cannot doe so much as one good worke And thus good works cannot be any meritorious causes of iustification after which they are both for time and order of nature In a word whereas they make two distinct iustifications wee acknowledge that there be degrees of sanctification yet so as iustification is onely one standing in remission of sinnes and Gods acceptation of vs to life euerlasting by Christ and this iustification hath no degrees but is perfect at the very first OF THE SECOND IVSTIFICATION speaker D. B. P. THe fourth argument A man must be fully iustified before he can doe a good vvorke and therefore good vvorkes cannot goe before iustification True not before the first iustification of a sinner But good Sir you hauing made in the beginning of this last Article a distinction betweene the first and second iustification And hauing before discussed the first and the second novv remaining and expecting you vvhy did you not say one vvord of it the matter being ample and vvell vvorthy the handling speaker A. W. He that denieth a second iustification and hath disprooued it neede not stand vpon a deuice of yours how worthy the handling soeuer you thinke it speaker D. B. P. Albeit you vvill not vvillingly confesse any second iustification as you say Yet had it been your partat least to haue disproued such arguments as vve bring to proue a second iustification Ye acknovvledge that there be degrees of sanctification But these degrees must be made dovvnevvard of euill vvorser and vvorst for if all our sanctification and best vvorkes be like vnto defiled cloutes and no better then deadly sinnes as you hold else vvhere let any vvise man iudge vvhat degrees of goodnesse can be lodged in it speaker A. W. But that you knew none of your side doe vse to reade our bookes nor dare without your licence neither you nor other of your Popish complices would for shame write in this sort You haue been often answered that wee acknowledge inherent righteousnesse and labour for and by the grace of God attaine to the increase of it in some measure from day to day speaker A. W. Againe how absurd is that position that there is but one iustification whereby they take fast hold on Christs righteousnes which can neuer after be either lost or increased Why then doe you with your brother Jounuan maintaine that all men are equally righteous If it so be let him that desireth to see you wel coursed read S. Hierome S. Amorose S. Augustine S. Gregorie speaker D. B. P. We maintaine that all men are equally righteous in regard of iustification but vnequally in respect of sanctification Iouinian is rather one of your brood who hold that a man being iustified is wholy without sin euen in Gods iudgement At least you must needs vphold that a man is as iust and righteous at his first conuersion as at his death how godly a life soeuer he lead against vvhich I vvill put dovvne these reasons follovving speaker A. W. First that of the reuelations Let him that is iust be yet iustified or as your text hath it He that is righteous let him be more righteous speaker D. B. P. He that is iustified is as righteous at the first as at the last in respect of iustification but not inherent righteousnes or sanctification of which the places you alleage are meant and therefore need no further answere But that you may the rather see our desire to satisfie you I will speake a little of them Iustified in that place signifieth to proceede in doing iustly as Ribera the Iesuite proueth by the opposition in the other part of the sentence Let him that hurteth hurt still that is goe forward in your hurting saith he and so let him that hurteth no bodie but giueth euery man his due goe forward in so doing Let him that doth good saith your glosse yet doe good more abundantly Let him that is righteous saith Cyprian in two places doe yet more righteous things and him that is holy more holy The Greeke Scholiast reade it thus Let him that is righteous yet worke righteousnes And so doe the Greeke Testaments printed by Plantin and the Interlinear Bible too so that there is not so much as the word iustified in some of your owne Greeke copies And that feare not to be iustified euen vntill death do conuince that there are more iustifications then one and that a man may increase in iustification and righteousnes vntill death speaker A. W. That of Ecclesiasticus would haue been spared till you haue proued that booke to be canonicall which you know we deny and that as we are sure with the consent of the auncient Church at least you should not haue alleadged it with so grosie an error in the translation The Greek is differ not The old Latin was in all likelyhood Be not forbidden or hindered as it may appeare by Vatablus edition of it by Robert Stephens that of Antwerpe and that with the glosse where Lyra expounds it ne prohibearis Andradius deliuers it thus Let there be nothing that may hinder thee from praying alwaies or may let thee from being iustified euen vntill death Some ignorant writer that copied out the booke finding ne veteris be not let and mistaking t for r writ ne
to wit by afflicting your selues so much for euery offence as vvorthy penance doth require which vvill be a sacrifice of iustice that is a most iust sacrifice speaker A. W. So do we acknowledge the exposition which the auncients giue of it though we thinke the exhortation to be somewhat larger then they seeme in the words alleaged to make it for it comprehends all kind of holie conuersation not only the change of the grosse outward sinnes which we doubt not was their meaning also as it is manifest by Chrysostome in that place you bring who describes the repentance that he speakes of to be not only a leauing of our former sinnes but a fulfilling of good works which he proues by that place of the Psalme Eschue euill and do good and expounding those words bring forth fruits c. It is not enough saith Iohn to flie from naughtines vnlesse we betake our selues to the practice of well doing You see what he saith quoth Theophylact that we must not only auoid euill but also bring forth the fruit of vertue To which he addes for proofe that place of the Psalme Yea we refuse not that of Bede for it is indeed a sacrifice fit for vs in iustice to offer that our repentance be answerable in proportion to our sinnes But what is all this to prooue that there remaines tempo all paine to be endured whereby Gods wrath may be satisfied especially when as Chrysostome saith plainely that Iohn perswading the people to repentance did it not that they might be punished but that being made humble by repenting and condemning themselues because of their sinnes they might come to the gift of pardon speaker W. P. Answ. This text is absurd for the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth thus much change your mindes from sinne to God and testifie it by good workes that is by doing the duties of the morall lawe which must bee done not because they are meanes to satisfie Gods iustice for mans fine but because they are fruites of that faith and repentance which lies in the heart speaker D. B. P. Reply His answere is most absurd for we argue out of these words VVorthy fruits of penance And he answereth to the word going before repent which we vse not against them and for his glose or testifying our repentance is sufficiently confuted by the Fathers before alleaged speaker A. W. Surely a reasonable man might well thinke that you that hold a necessitie of satisfaction and bring that text did ground your argument vpon Iohns charge to do penance The authors alleaged do not confute that interpretation by bringing another which is not 〈◊〉 â—…ty to it at the least we denie your consequence vpon their words And S. Iohn expresly maketh them the meanes to escaâ—… wrath of God saying that the 〈◊〉 was set to the â—…ose of the â—rie and vn lesse by worthy fruits of penanâ—… they 〈◊〉 God they 〈◊〉 â—e 〈◊〉 vp and cast into hell fire and 〈◊〉 hâ—… confute the â—aying â—…d on Christs satisfaction by faith saying 〈◊〉 wâ—â—l not helpe you to say thâ—â— yee are the Sonnes of Abraham wâ—o was â—…her of all true beleeueis as much as if he had said trust not to your faith hand off yee generation of vipers For notwithstanding yee be the Sonnes of the faithfull vnlesse yee amend your liues and for the euill works which ye haue denoâ—… tofore make recompence and satisfie the iustice of God with good yâ—â— shall be cast into hell fire speaker A. W. Neither doth Iohn speake of any satisfaction for the temporall punishment after the pardon of the eternall but threatens them with euerlasting damnation except they bring forth the fruits of repentance as well as make a profession of it by being baptised so that if satisfaction be required in those words dâ—â—btles it is that satisfaction which may free them from hell fire but that you confesse is not to be performed by euery man for himselfe but by Christ for all that trust in him To whom seemes he to confute the very matter of all his preaching not to Bede who in the place alleaged by you tels vs that Iohn exhorts the Pharises to humilitie who were so proude because they were Abrahams children that they would not confesse themselues to be sinners nor to Lyra who writes thus Because the Pharises Lawyers refused Abrahams faith of Christ therefore they lost the name of Abrahams sonnes And certainely it had bin against reason for Iohn to haue disswaded the Saduces and Pharises from trusting in Christ as well because it was his especiall commission to perswade men by all meanes to beleeue in Christ as also for that there was not the least cause of suspition that they would be too forward to trust in him who had so strong a perswasion of their owne righteousnes that they could find no want of his help speaker W. P. Obiect VII 2. Cor. 7. 10. Paul setteth downe sundrie fruites of repentance whereof the last is reuenge whereby repentant persons punish themselues thereby to satisfie Gods iustice for the temporall punishment of their sinnes Answ. A repentant sinner must take reuenge of himselfe and that is onely to vse all meanes which serue to subdue the corruption of his nature to bridle carnall affections and to mortifie sinne and these kind of actions are restrainments properly and not punishments and are directed against the sinne and not against the person speaker D. B. P. The 7. obiection with M. Perkins Paul setteth dovvne sundry fruits of repentance vvhereof one is reuenge vvhereby repentant persons punish themselues to satisfie Gods iustice for the temporall punishment of their sins M. Perkins answereth A repentant sinner must take vengeance of himselfe and that is to vse all meanes to subdue the corruption of nature and to bridle carnall affections which kind of actions are restrainements properly but no punishments directed against the sinne but not against the person Reply I neuer saw any writer so contradict himselfe and so dull that he doth not vnderstand his owne words If this subduing of our corrupt nature be restrainments only from sinne hereafter and not also punishments of sin past how then doth the repentant sinner take vengeance of himselfe which you affirme that he must doe Reuenge as euery simple body knoweth is the requitall of euill past We grant that all satisfaction is directed against sinne and not against the person but for the great good of the man albeit that for a season it may afflict both his body and mind too as S. Paules former Epistle did the Corinthians speaker A. W. If he vnderstood not his owne words he is like to haue small help of you who either cannot or will not conceiue his meaning aright The reuenge that a sinner must take of himselfe is saith Master Perkins to vse all good meanes which serue to subdue his corruption but this is not properly a punishment of
God though of themselues they be no worship speaker D. B. P. Buâ— let vs heere M. Perkins his second reason against such Vovves Gods kingdome standeth not in outvvard things and therfore his vvorship standeth not in outvvard things Ans. Gods kingdome in itselfe standeth not in outvvard things and as it is in vs also it doth consist chiefly in inward worship by faith hope charity and religion in vvhose kingdome Vovvs hold a honorable ranke but a great part of this vvorship among vs depends of outvvard things for be not the tvvo only parts of Gods vvorship among Protestants as M. Perknis saith in this question Baptisme and our Lords Supper both vvhich partly consist in outvvardly both speaking and doing And is not faith vvhich is the roote of all Christian Religion gotten by outvvard preaching and hearing But it vvould vvearie a vvilling man to trayle after all M. Perkins his impertinent errors speaker A. W. The kingdome of God stands not in such outward actions as eating drinking c. Master Perkins denyes not that we are to performe outward worship to God which consists among vs in prayer prayse thanksgeuing and such like duties not onely as you would haue your followers falsely imagine of vs in administring and receiuing the sacraments You that would seeme so vnwilling to traile after Master Perkins errors are glad to make some of your owne and father them vpon him least ofttimes you should haue nothing to say I haue shewed diuers particulars of this kind in the course of my answere to your cauils against him speaker W. P. III. Point of difference They maintaine such vowes to be made as are not agreeable to the rules before named and herein also wee are to dissent from them The first and principall is the vowe of continencie whereby a man promiseth to God to keepe chastitie alwaies in single life that is out of the estate of wedlocke This kind of vowe is flat against the word of God and therefore vnlawfull For Paul saith 1. Cor. 7. 9. If they cannot conteine let them marric 1. Tim. 4. 1. It is a doctrine of deuills to forbid to marrie Heb. 13. 4. Marriage is honorable among all and the bed vndefiled speaker D. B. P. This kind of Vovv is flat against the vvord of God as hesaith vvhich he proueth first out of S. Paul If they cannot containe then let 〈◊〉 Marrie True if they haue not Vovved Chastitie before as the common Christians of Corinth to vvhom S. Paul there speaketh had not For such â—f they cannotliue othervvise chastly it is better they marry then be burned that is defiled vvith incontinencie But to them vvho had Vovved chastitie before S. Paul vvriteth in another stile That if they but desire to marrie they incurre domnation because they haue made frustrate and broken their former faith and promise made vnto God of their chastiue So that this first text is a Furlong vvide at the least from the marke speaker A. W. The text is generall and implies no such exception holds it to be a better course for them that haue vowed to marry then to continue in sinne against God And Austin saith that the marriages of such men are not to be condemned as if they were no marriages at all which opinion that they are no marriages he there refutes And indeede who can thinke in any reason that it is more displeasing to God for a man to breake the promise he hath made then by making a shew of keeping it to liue in vncleannes It is but one fault to breake a vow though it be neuer so lawfull but it is a double fault both to do against the vow by continuing subiect to such lusts and to refuse the remedie that is afforded In which respect Epiphanius saith it is better to haue one sinne then many sinnes Therefore Cyrill giueth councell to marry euen after the vow of single life and to confesse our sinne in so doing if we cannot liue chastly Yea the Common law bids a man not to do that which he hath vowed vnaduisedly It is no doubt a fault not to keepe our vow but to make such a vow as a man is not sure he shall be able to keepe is a greater fault If the case fall out to be so Ierome and q Austen hold it the lesse euill to marry It cannot be prooued out of the text that the Apostle speaketh there of any votaries but only of such widowes as hauing for a time employed themselues in the seruice of the Church at the last left both the Church and Christ and followed Sathan by marrying with Infidels But take it as you will we haue already seene the iudgement of the Auntients who for all their high conceipt of virginitie allow marriage euen after vowes speaker D. B. P. The second is much like It is a doctrine of diuels to forbid to marie truth if one should hold mariage in it selfe to be wicked and therefore condemne it in all sorts of persons as Montanus and the Manichees did But we haue a more reuerend opinion of marriage than the Protestants themselues For we with the Apostle hold it to be a great Sacramâ—… they that it is a morail contract only Notwithstanding we maintaine that such persons who being of ripe yeeres haue aduisedly Vowed chastitie may not marry not because marriage is not honorable but for that they haue solemnly promised to God the contrarie which we also hold to be better thaÌ„ if he had maried And so to vse S. Augustines words H. forbiddeth to marry vvho sayeth it to be euill but not be vvho before this good thing preferreth a better And a little after you see saith he that there is great difference betweene persvvasion to Virginity by preserring the greater good before the lesse and forbidding to marrie by accusing lying togither for issue The first is the doctrine of the Apostles which we teach the latter only of diuels speaker A. W. The Apostle speaketh of all forbidding marriage at the least as an vncleane thing but so it is forbidden by you because it defiles your priests that they cannot be fit to offer vp ther maker yea that they cannot pray as Harding saith You take marriage for such a Sacrament that it is too base for your holy priesthood We acknowledge it to be the ordinance of God of another manner of bond then a morall contract only We deny not that single life is in some respects to be preferred before marraige but that marriage is to be forbidden any sort of men as if of it selfe it made them lesse holy speaker D. B. P. The strength of this place lyeth in a double corruption of the text For this verbe is is not in the text nor cannot by the courle of the Apostles speech requiring a verbe of the Imperatiue Mood as both the sent nces before and after do conuince speaker A. W. The sentences before and
Tertullians testimonie is not worth the answering Not only because as I shewed before out of Hilary his heresie discredited all his writings but because this is the booke wherein he chiefly maintaines that his heresie and blasphemie too accompting Montanus the holy Ghost and Comforter whom our Sauiour promised to send Vpon his authoritie doth Tertullian forbid second marriages as vncleane and brings this place you alleage to that purpose Such conscience make you of citing authorities against the truth But I answere Tertullian that our Sauiour hath left it to no mans choise but to his that hath receiued the gift speaker D. B. P. Origen vpon the same place He that vvill take this vvord that is set dovvne of chastitie let him pray for it beleeuing â—…m that said aske and it shall be giuen you and he shall receiue it which doth plainely confute M. Perkins Who saith that although we aske neuer so much we cannot obtaine this gift speaker D. B. P. To Tertullian Origen may well be ioyned a man condemned of heresie or rather of many heresies by Ierome Austin Epiphanius Theophilus and a whole Councill Further it is strange that he should be reported to haue offered such violence to his owne bodie if he thought the gift of continencie so easie to be obtained More especially I say that Origen mistakes the matter For our Sauiour Christ bids not euery man pray for it that will haue iâ— but him to take it that can implying that euery one cannot The promise is of things needfull such is not continencie nor conuenient for all speaker D. B. P. With Origen agreeth S. Ierome vpon the same place who saith It is giuen vnto them vvho haue requested it vvho haue desired it and trauayled that they might receiue it speaker A. W. Ieromes authoritie is in it selfe more worth in this case not much because hee goes directly against our Sauiours words who makes it a gift particular to some and not once mentions any meanes of comming by it but bids them take it that can His reason is the same with Origens and answered before yet euen there he wils all men to consider their strength whether they be able to goe thorough with it or no. speaker D. B. P. The same Song chanteth Gregory Nazianzen which is of three kinds of Eunouchs Nazianzen goeth somwhat further making it no more but a matter of a mans owne inclination When thou hearest saith he to whom it is giuen adde it is giuen to them that are able and to them who are so carried by the inclination of their minde As if our Sauiour had said Take it who will not who can as if nothing wanted but resolution speaker D. B. P. S. Chrysostome saith it is possible to all them who make choyse of it and further addeth that our Sauiour Christ himselfe doth proue it there after this sort Thinke vvith thy selfe if thou haddest bin by nature an Eunuch or by the malice of men made one vvhat vvouldest thou then haue done vvhen thou shouldest both haue been depriued of that pleasure and yet not haue had any recompence for thy paine Therefore thanke God because thou shalt haue a great revvard and a glittering Crovvne if thou liue so as they must doe vvithout any revvard yet saith he thou maiest do it more easilie safely and pleasantly both because thou art fortifiâ—d vvith hope of recompence and also comforted vvith a vertuous conscience speaker A. W. Chrysostoms Rhetorike is better in this place than his Logicke Our Sauiour exhorts them that can to take it he saith not euery man that will may Those are they which haue made themselues chast who hauing the gift of continencie from God vse it accordingly and forbe are marriage that they may with more cheerefulnes and lesse incumbrance serue God yet is there no shadow of any proofe in this place that euery one may vow continencie speaker D. B. P. We will wrappe vp this point with S. Augustine who directly confuteth M. Perkins by many reasons and examplâ—… Lib. 2. De adaâ—…erinis coning cap. 12. Et de bono vidâ—â—â— â—ap â—0 speaker A. W. And vpon the Psalme an hundreth thirtie seauen he yeeldeth another reason why God will more really aâ—… them saying He that exhorteth thee to Voâ— will helpe thee to fulfill it All which heauenly Doctrine because it is spiritually iudged as the Apostle speaketh the Carnall man cannot vnderstand And therefore M. Perkins being perswaded that few can liue chastly except they marrie auoucheth that this Vovv doth bring forth innumerable abhominations in the World Not the hundreth part so many as the fleshly Heretikes imagine and out of flying and lying tales report and bruâ—te abroad Nay I dare affirme that let the authenticall Records of our Realme be well perused and you shall find more lewde filthie Lecherie to haue been practised by Ministers and their Wiues this last age than was in a thousand yeere before by all the Catholike Priests and Religious persons of the Land There is not a word of this place either in that twelfth Chapter or in any part of that booke how then doth Saint Austin directly confute Master Perkins by many reasons and examples The question propounded by Pollentius and there handled by Austin is whether the Apostle 1. Cor. 7. forbid her to marrie who is departed from her husband though not because of fornication In the other place Austin shewes no more but this that it is possible to refraine from fornication and adulterie which it neuer came into our minde to denie But this is not enough to chastitie and continencie If the ancient Fathers hereto fore and you now count al them chast that defile not their bodies with outward vncleannes of that kinde monstrous filthinesse may bee chastitie But admit which wee grant may be and like enough hath been in many carnall men yea is perhaps at this day in some Turkes and other Heathen that the outward act should be vtterly for borne yet may they that so forbeare burne in continuall lust and liue in the breach of Gods Commandements What doth this discourse of Austins then concerne that which Master Perkins affirmes when he is readie to grant as much as Austin saith and yet holds his former conclusion that chastitie and continencie are vertues of Gods speciall gift and not matters to be attained to by euery one that wil vow to continue vnmarried in hope to prooue able to keepe his vow This third place is like the first alleaged by you without any ground at all For there is no such speech in that Commentarie nor any occasion of it in the Psalme The likeliest place for it in his exposition of the Psalmes is vpon the 75. Psalme where hee discourses of the vow of continencie at large But there it is not so that it is not to be taken for Austins till you bring better proofe that it is his If I
he euer persvvade himselfe that to vvallovv in fleshly pleasure and satisfying of the beastly apperites is as gratefull to God as to conquere and subdue them by Fasting and Prayer speaker A. W. Our captaines and ringleaders say you vowed virginitie therefore we must needs thinke the state of virginitie more perfect then that of marriage First I denie your antecedent neither our Sauiour nor his mother nor his Apostles vowed virginitie prooue it of any of them if you can Indeede our Sauiour was neuer married and all men may easily see it was no way fit he should be His mother was and therefore questionles neuer made any such vow of single life though we beleeue that as it was very fit it should be she continued a virgin till her death That some of the Apostles had wiues it is apparant by scripture that they kept them after their office vndertaken it is more then likely by the like warrant of scripture whatsoeuer some haue thought without any sufficient ground of reason or authoritie to the contrarie Peter and Philip saith Clement of Alexandria had children Philip also bestowed his daughters in marriage and Paul is not afraid in a certaine Epistle of his to mention his wife whom he did not leade about with him because he had no neede of any great seruice Your consequence also is very weake They were virgins therefore it was a state of greater perfection It was more fit for those times and their occasions yea we graunt it is a freer kind of life for Gods seruice and therefore they that can liue so do well to vse that their libertie but this prooues not that single life is simply better then marriage That which you adde of wallowing in filthie pleasure and satisfying of the beastly appetites bewraies the beastlie opinion you haue of marriage and shewes that you would be filthy though you were married what you are now as I know not so I will not iudge But this I will say that few or no married men liue so vnchastlie and abhominablie as many of your vowed virgins haue done by record of your owne stories speaker D. B. P. Finally if S. Paul giue counsell to the married to conteine during the time of Prayer Priests and religious that must alvvaies be in a readines to minister the Sacraments and to thinke vpon such things as belong vnto our Lord are therefore vpon a great consideration bound to perpetuall chastitie speaker A. W. The Apostle giueth no such counsaile but forbids the married the restraining of each others companie except it be for a time that they may giue themselues to fasting and prayer The reason is that at such speciall times speciall humiliation is requisite to which the forbearing all kind of lawfull pleasure is a principall furtherance otherwise the moderate vse of marriage is no hinderance to any dutie either of Christianitie or the Ministrie but a speciall meanes to preserue necessarie Chastitie speaker D. B. P. We vvill close vp this point vvith some sentences taken out of the auncient Fathers in praise of Virginity vvhich Master Perkins in all this question vouchsafeth scarce once to name as though Virgins and Virginitie vvere no English vvords or not as plaine as continencie speaker A. W. Wee acknowledge that virginitie where it is pure as it ought to be is worthie of very singular commendation but it consists not onely in abstaining from the outward act of marriage Master Perkins did very well approue both of the thing and the word but because it was not general enough for this question as not reaching to all that were single he rather chose to vse the word continencie being of larger extent speaker D. B. P. S. Cyprian De habitu Virginum Intitleth Virgins to be the most noble and glorious person of Christs flocke and addeth that they shall receiue of God the highest revvard and greatest recompence Saint Chrysostome saith Virginitie to be the top of perfection and the highest typ of vertue And Athanasius De Virginitate in the end bursteth out into these vvords O Virginitie a treasure that vvasteth not a garland that wythereth not the Temple of God the Palace of the Holy Ghost a pretious stone whose price is vnknown to the vulgar the ioy of the Prophets the glory of the Apostles the life of Angels the Crovvne of Saints S. Ambrose Lib. 1. de Virginibus paulo post init Virginity is a principall vertue and not therefore commendable that it is found in Martyrs but because it maketh Martyrs Who can with humane vvit comprehend it vvhich nature doth not hold vvithin her lavves it hath fetched out of Heauen that it might imitate on Earth neither vnsitly hath it sought a manner of life in heauen vvhich hath found a spouse for her in heauen This surmounting the clouds the starres and Angels hath found the vvord of God in the bosome of his Father c. See vvho list to reade more to this purpose the rest of the Fathers in their vvorkes of Virginitie of vvhich most of them haue vvritten And S. Ierome who is behind none of the rest in his bookes against Iouinian and Heluidius all vvhich doe most diligently exhort to Vovv Virginitie do teach hovv to keepe it and most vehemently inueigh against all them that do breake it And if any be so mad as to credit rather our fleshly ministers than all that honorable and holy senate of the auncient Fathers he deserueth to liue and die in perpetuall darknesse speaker A. W. In this matter I haue stayed some-vvhat longer because our carnall teachers vvith the levvde example of their dissolute Disciples haue corrupted ourage vvith fleshly and beastly libertie In the other points I vviâ—l recompence it with breuitie These hyperbolicall commendations of virginitie shew the opinion of some ancient writers concerning it but prooue nothing We disswade no man from continuing a single life so hee bee able to ouercome that burning which the Apostle condemnes yea rather wee exhort them that haue the gift to vse it But we denie either that all haue it or that they which haue it doe please God any more by the vse of it that they that haue it not but as they employ it to the better and more free seruing of God speaker W. P. The second is the vow of pouertie and Monasticall life in which men bestow all they haue on the poore and giue themselues wholy and onely to prayer and fasting This vowe is against the will of God Act. 20. 35. It is a more blessed thing to giue then to receiue Pro. 28. 7. Giue me neither riches nor pouerty Deut. 28. 22. Pouertie is numbred among the curses of the law none whereof are to be vowed And it is the rule of the holy Ghost 2. Thess. 3. 10. He that will not labour namely in some speciall and warrantable calling must not eate And vers 12. I exhort that they worke with quietnes and eate
to be abolished speaker A. W. Against which of the former conclusions is the practise of the Magistrate that you should denie that to be our doctrine because of this Not against the first nor the second For both we our selues vse them for ornament and remembrance and all your Papists you speake of to religious purposes Not against the third For you haue no image that God hath appointed to bee made much lesse against the fourth which allowes none of your Images It would haue becommed you therefore to forbeare both the accusing of the Magistrate for doing against our doctrine and the condemning of our doctrine as being other than it is For the people though many amongst them iustly mislike crosses because they are by you ordinarily abused to Idolatrie yet I thinke you can bring few examples of any such disorderly course and I am perswaded none at all which the Magistrate hath not corrected speaker A. W. O men blinded vvith spite against true deuotion We Catholikes are a thousand times morezealous of the true honor of the liuing God than any Protestants euer vvere or vvill be And that small reuerence vvhich vve yeeld vnto Images is more different from the honor and obedience due vnto Almighty God than the cope of heauen is distant from the center of the earth You zealous of the true honour of the liuing God whose glorie you turne into the likenes of a mortall man and of a pigeon whom you dishonor by stockes and stones whom you crush vp into a baggage wafer cake whom you deuoure and swallow downe into your bellies and cast out into a place not fit to be named There neuer was the like senselesse and barbarous Idolatrie among the Gentiles If some reuerence you giue be small some againe is a degree at the least aboue that as the very words shew But tell me is it small reuerence to giue the same honour to the image which belongs to the partie whose image it is Doe you not worship the images of the Trinitie and of Christ alone with diuine worship Are not you they who maintaine that idolatrous second Councill of Nice in which Constantine Bishop of Constance in Cyprus blasphemously affirmed that he receiued and embraced honourable holy and venerable Images according to that seruice of adoration which he gaue to the consubstantiall and quickning Trinitie But of this afterwards speaker D. B. P. And that these hotter brethren may see vvhat reason M. Perkins had to allovv of the ciuill and historicall vse of Images I thinke it expedient to note here hovv in the purest antiquitie Images vvere made and respected That famous Image of our blessed Sauiour vvhich the vvoman cured of the bloody flâ—xe set vp in Brasse at Caesarea Philippi vpon a Piller of stone is not vnknown vnto any that haue read the Ecclesiasticall History of Eusebius Lib. 7. cap. 14. And how God did approue it by giuing vertue vnto an herbe when it did grow to touch the hem of that Picture to cure all manner of diseases Which Image Eusebius himselfe did see standing vntill his daies which was â—300 yeeres agoe as he there testifieth as also that he saw diuers others namely of Saint Peter and Paul speaker A. W. This goodly statue being most memorable both for antiquitie of it being made our Sauiour yet liuing and for the miracles wrought by that herbe growing at the foot of it Iulian the Apostata for malice against our Sauiour caused to be broken downe and set vp his owne Image in the place of it but his was presently with lightning and thunder from heauen consumed into ashes and our Sauiours by the Christians carried into their Church as witnesseth Sozomenus Eusebius deliuers that storie as a matter of report not knowledge They say that her house is yet to be seene and that admirable monuments of that benefit our Sauiour bestowed vpon her are yet remaining And it is worth the obseruing that Eusebius makes a difference betwixt that which he knew by the Gospell and that which he heard by report Of her healing by our Sauiour Christ he speaketh thus Whom we know by the holy Gospels that our Sauiour freed from her disease Of her dwelling at Caesarea Philippi of her house and that Image with the hearbe and vertue of it They say of the Image also in particular they say this statue hath the image of Iesus Neither doth he affirme that he saw it himselfe It remained also saith Eusebius vntill our times as it may be seene of them that goe into that Citie But I wonder at your confidence that euer you would adde a word of the Images of Peter and Paul Eusebius report and iudgement being in that very place against your opinion of Images Let vs heare himselfe speake It may not seeme strange saith Eusebius presently vpon the former words that such of the Gentiles as were cured by our Sauiour did these things seeing wee haue seene the Images of his Apostles viz. of Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe kept painted in tables because the ancients by an heathenish custome of the Gentiles were wâ—nt in that manner to honour those whom they counted their preseruers This woman being a Heathen and perhaps conuerted in her ignorance did like the rest of the Heathen The miracle was receiued and deliuered by Eusebius only vpon report of the continuance whereof with the Images enduring he saith nothing But in this case I will onely put you in minde of that which one of your owne schoolmen writes concerning such miracles that they are wrought often times by the operation of Diuels to deceiue the inordinate worshippers of such Images God permitting and the infidelitie of men necessarily requiring it Such might this be if there were any such Sozomen notes in his preface to the storie that this destroying of Iulians image shewed the power of Christ and his anger against Iulian but this prooues not that our Sauiour had any liking of the Image it was Iulians malice as your selfe call it that prouoked our Sauiour not the respect of the Image The latter part you report very craftily as if the Christians had set vp that Image in their Church but Sozomen saith not so onely he telleth vs that when the Gentiles had dragged it to peeces the Christians gathered vp the peeces and laid them vp in their Church where they were kept till the time of his writing speaker D. B. P. Another Picture of our Sauiours visage he himselfe is reported to haue sent vnto Abgarus Prince of Edessa as witnesseth Metaphrastes In vita Constantini Damascen and Euagrius who doth in the same chapter rehearse a notable miracle vvrought by the same Image to deliuer the Tovvne from the sacking of the Persians And in his fift booke and eighteenth chapter recordeth another miracle done by the Image of the blessed Virgin Mary in a prison at Antioch speaker A. W. The chiefe author you alleage
them he must needs be furiously transported with blind zeale that makes warre against Crosses and burnes holy Pictures as of late the Superintendent of Hereford did in the market place openly Here is not one sufficient testimonie as I haue shewed to prooue that euer there were any such Images as you speake of then what miracles could be wrought for the countenancing of our Sauiour by them It is an honour indeed to haue Images erected in memorie of the deceased but not for him that is God neither is it a religious honour but a ciuill proceeding not from our deuotion but from our loue whatsoeuer the ground of our loue be in respect of them whom we so honour How slight and vaine a motion to the imitation of any mans vertues the sight of his Image is let all experience testifie which indeed can bring no more but the remembrance of it at the most But suppose there were some more force in it all the helps that can be imagined likely to come by it will not counteruaile the danger of Idolatrie and so the breach of Gods commandement in erecting them for any vse of Religion whereupon Idolatrie will most certainly ensue That fable of I cannot tell what woman moued to some ciuill outward carriage by the beholding of Polemons Image seemes to haue been deuised out of the Heathen historie of another Polemon who was brought to the like ciuill vertue by hearing the Philosopher Xenocrates discourse of continencie and temperancie a farre more likely matter whether it be true or false But what haue we to doe with that lying Conuenticle which tels vs of such a thing out of Athanasius as was written if they say true some foure hundred yeeres before and neuer heard of vntill that time when there was such speciall need of it No no that dealing of that Councill is too well knowne to purchase any credit with mē that will not wilfully be blinded In the like sort they deale with Basil Cyril Ambrose Chrysostome Gregorie and the Apostles themselues whose decrees they fetch out of a counterfeit Synod at Antioch The difference speaker W. P. Our dissent from them touching images stands in three points I. The Church of Rome holds it lawfull for them to make images to resemble God though not in respect of his diuine nature yet in respect of some properties and actions Wee on the contrarie hold it vnlawfull for vs to make any image any way to represent the true God or to make an image of any thing in way of religion to worship God much lesse the creature thereby For the second commandement saith plainely Exod. 20. 4. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image or the likenesse of any thing in heauen c. The Papists say the commaundement is meant of the images of false gods But will they nill they it must be vnderstood of the images of the true Iehouah and it forbids vs to resemble God either in his nature properties or works or to vse any resemblance of him for any sacred vse as to help the memorie when we are about to worship God Thus much the holy Ghost who is the best expoūder of himself teacheth most plainly Deut. 4. 15. 16. Thou sawest no image at al either of false or true god and therefore thou shalt not make any likenes of anything And againe the Prophet Esay c. 40. 18. reprouing idolaters asketh to whom they will liken God or what similitude will they set vp to him And vers 21. Know ye nothing haue ye not heard hath it not bin told you from the beginning as if he should say haue yee forgotten the second commaundement that God gaue vnto your fathers And thus he flatly reprooues all them that resemble the true God in images speaker D. B. P. This passeth all kind of impudencie to quote the Roman Catechisme in defence of that opinion which it doth of set purpose disproue It teacheth indeed that the very nature and substance of God which is wholy spirituall cannot be expressed and figured by corporall lineaments and colours and all edgeth the places produced by M. Perkins to proue that vnlawfull yet by and by annexeth these words Let no man therefore thinke it to be against religion and the Law of God vvhen any person of the most holy Trinities is pourtraied in such sort as they haue appeared either in the Old or Nevv Testament c. But let the Pastor teach that not the nature of God but certaine properties and actions appertaining to God are represented in such Pictures If the man be not past grace he wil surely blush at such a foule error His textes of Scripture are taken out of the same place of the Catechisme and do proue only that Gods proper nature cannot nor may not be resembled in any corporall shape or liknes speaker A. W. If you would haue dealt as kindly with Master Perkins in this quotation as I haue dealt with you in many you might haue applied it to the former part that the commandement is meant of the Images of the true Iehouah which your Catechisme grants though onely so farre as concernes the expressing of his forme by an Image as your selfe also confesse And the Councill of Trent affirmes that to be vn being al one in the coueting of wife and coueting of house seruant maide oxe asse and whatsoeuer els as the Apostle expresseth it without mētioning any particular But the two first differ almost as much as may be The first forbidding the worship of any other God but the true the second prohibiting the worshipping of him by an Image or Idoll The last reason which only your Catechisme brings beside Austins authoritie and custome of your Church is insufficient also For it was very fit that God should adde that reason of promise and threatning to that rather than any of the rest because hee had speciall care of that and knew that the Iewes and all men generally were likely to worship him after their owne deuices and namely by Images Beside is not the reason annexed to the third Commandement as generall that God will not hold him guiltlesse which breakes any of his lawes why then doe you not make that also a part of the first Commandement speaker W. P. And the distinction they make that an Image is the representation of true things an Idol of things supposed is false speaker D. B. P. But Master Perkins goeth on and saith that our distinction betweene Image and Idoll that an Image representeth a thing that is but Idoll a thing supposed to be but is not is false and against the auncient writers vvho make it all one We proue the contrary First by the authority of the auncient Doctors Origen and Theodoret vvho in expresse vvords deliuer the same difference of Image and Idoll vvhich is taken out of S. Paul laying that an Idoll is nothing in the vvorld that is such Idols as the Heathen take for