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A04215 A defence of the churches and ministery of Englande Written in two treatises, against the reasons and obiections of Maister Francis Iohnson, and others of the separation commonly called Brownists. Published, especially, for the benefitt of those in these partes of the lowe Countries. Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624. 1599 (1599) STC 14335; ESTC S107526 96,083 102

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unto_o they_o nay_o be_v they_o not_o therefore_o whole_o to_o be_v separate_v from_o and_o leave_v to_o the_o judgement_n of_o god_n 16._o num._n 16._o which_o overtake_v they_o and_o all_o that_o join_v unto_o they_o yet_o be_v their_o error_n only_o in_o matter_n of_o order_n and_o outward_a government_n of_o the_o church_n this_o may_v suffice_v to_o convince_v the_o adversary_n untrue_a assertion_n in_o this_o place_n to_o that_o of_o master_n cranmer_n and_o ridley_n etc._n etc._n be_v answer_v before_o for_o conclusion_n therefore_o this_o we_o add_v concern_v this_o point_n that_o all_o such_o assembly_n and_o people_n as_o hold_v profess_v and_o practice_v as_o do_v the_o church_n of_o england_n these_o abomination_n follow_v they_o can_v not_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n be_v esteem_v in_o such_o estate_n true_o to_o hold_v christ_n their_o prophet_n priest_n and_o king_n towit_n the_o confusion_n of_o all_o sort_n of_o people_n though_o never_o so_o wicked_a and_o their_o 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17._o be_v none_o other_o than_o the_o proud_a glitter_a title_n wherewith_o they_o garnish_v their_o usurp_a authority_n to_o make_v it_o seem_v glorious_a to_o the_o world_n have_v within_o they_o contain_v the_o great_a mystery_n of_o iniquity_n what_o other_o else_o say_v he_o also_o be_v pope_n cardinal_n metropolitan_a primate_n archbishop_n diocean_n archdeacon_n official_a chauncelour_n commissarie_n deane_n prebend_n parson_n vicar_n and_o such_o like_a but_o very_a name_n of_o blasphemy_n for_o office_n they_o be_v not_o appoint_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n nor_o yet_o once_o mention_v in_o the_o scripture_n this_o john_n bale_n hold_v and_o publish_v then_o which_o what_o can_v be_v more_o full_a and_o evident_a against_o they_o and_o again_o write_v upon_o the_o 14._o chapter_n of_o the_o revelation_n 14.9_o in_o image_n of_o both_o church_n upon_o reu._n 14.9_o he_o have_v these_o word_n to_o receyve_v the_o beast_n mark_v in_o their_o forehead_n &_o hand_n be_v both_o to_o 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suffragans_fw-la dean_n prebendary_n cannon_n petticannos_fw-la gospeler_n pistler_n virgirer_n querister_n organ-player_n priest_n deacon_n or_o half_a priest_n archdeacon_n doctor_n of_o divinity_n bachelor_n of_o divinity_n chaplyns_n or_o house-prieste_n commissary_n official_o proctor_n apparitor_n parson_n vicar_n curate_n vagrant_a or_o mercenary_a preacher_n churchwarden_n sideman_n clerk_n sexton_n and_o the_o rest_n now_o have_v in_o these_o cathedral_n and_o parishional_a assembly_n be_v those_o office_n appoint_v by_o christ_n in_o his_o last_o testament_n as_o be_v aforesaid_a or_o no._n 3_o whether_o the_o calling_n and_o entrance_n into_o these_o ecclesiastical_a office_n last_v aforesaid_a their_o administration_n and_o maintenance_n now_o have_v and_o receive_v in_o england_n be_v the_o manner_n of_o call_v administration_n &_o maintenance_n which_o christ_n have_v appoint_v for_o the_o office_n of_o his_o church_n above_o name_v or_o no._n 4_o whether_o every_o true_a visible_a church_n of_o
true_o whether_o before_o or_o after_o the_o bishop_n that_o skill_v not_o if_o any_o think_v imposition_n of_o hand_n to_o be_v simple_o necessary_a to_o the_o be_v of_o a_o minister_n that_o be_v also_o a_o error_n &_o can_v be_v prove_v reason_n iii_o f._n johns_n three_o the_o people_n can_v choose_v their_o minister_n unless_o the_o prelate_n either_o before_o or_o after_o make_v he_o minister_n but_o a_o couple_n may_v choose_v each_o other_o whether_o the_o priest_n will_v give_v his_o consent_n or_o no._n therefore_o etc._n etc._n h._n jacob_n 1_o we_o deny_v your_o say_n the_o peole_n can_v choose_v they_o can_v choose_v they_o have_v power_n in_o christ_n as_o be_v christian_n though_o they_o know_v not_o their_o right_n therein_o the_o ignorance_n of_o this_o simple_o do_v not_o cut_v we_o of_o from_o christ_n nor_o from_o this_o holy_a privilege_n no_o more_o than_o the_o blind_a papist_n have_v lose_v their_o right_a &_o power_n of_o marry_v together_o without_o a_o priest_n because_o they_o be_v ignorant_a of_o it_o 2._o again_o where_o he_o say_v but_o a_o couple_n may_v choose_v each_o other_o whether_o the_o priest_n will_v marry_v they_o or_o no_o let_v he_o mark_v that_o we_o speak_v of_o blind_a papist_n that_o think_v that_o the_o priest_n be_v the_o whole_a absolute_a and_o necessary_a marriage_n maker_n if_o he_o say_v even_o such_o have_v right_a and_o power_n to_o marry_v though_o they_o be_v far_o from_o know_v it_o and_o far_o from_o practise_v then_o let_v he_o grant_v the_o like_a in_o choose_v a_o minister_n to_o our_o christian_n for_o so_o the_o comparison_n import_v else_o if_o he_o mean_v those_o word_n of_o other_o that_o be_v man_n of_o knowledge_n then_o he_o fight_v with_o his_o shadow_n he_o touch_v not_o our_o question_n reason_n four_o f._n johns_n if_o any_o that_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n be_v not_o capable_a of_o marry_v together_o as_o brother_n &_o sister_n etc._n etc._n do_v notwithstanding_o consent_v to_o take_v each_o other_o for_o man_n and_o wife_n yet_o be_v they_o not_o therefore_o lawful_a man_n and_o wife_n so_o if_o a_o people_n and_o some_o man_n that_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n can_v choose_v one_o another_o as_o pastor_n and_o church_n in_o their_o estate_n such_o as_o now_o be_v in_o this_o land_n do_v notwithstanding_o consent_v to_o take_v each_o other_o yet_o be_v they_o not_o therefore_o lawful_a pastor_n and_o church_n h._n jacob_n this_o be_v whole_o presume_v and_o from_o the_o question_n also_o like_o to_o the_o first_o reason_n and_o have_v the_o same_o answer_n as_o be_v make_v to_o the_o first_o accusation_n there_o he_o reason_v against_o people_n not_o capable_a of_o a_o pastor_n and_o we_o speak_v of_o true_a christian_n which_o be_v always_o capable_a he_o do_v ill_a therefore_o in_o compare_v this_o action_n to_o marriage_n between_o brother_n &_o sister_n who_o indeed_o can_v marry_v happy_o he_o may_v likely_a compare_n it_o to_o a_o couple_n that_o have_v live_v both_o of_o they_o wanton_o afterward_o they_o marry_v together_o and_o this_o marriage_n if_o self_n they_o use_v not_o sober_o nor_o temperate_o howbeit_o for_o all_o this_o i_o profess_v these_o two_o be_v true_o man_n and_o wife_n notwithstanding_o now_o even_o so_o our_o church_n and_o minister_n etc._n etc._n reason_n v._o f._n johns_n the_o priest_n join_v of_o the_o party_n do_v not_o make_v they_o man_n and_o wife_n at_o all_o but_o only_o the_o party_n mutual_a consent_n but_o contrary_o in_o the_o present_a ecclesiastical_a constitution_n of_o england_n the_o prelate_n ordination_n make_v the_o minister_n and_o not_o the_o people_n choice_n at_o all_o h._n jacob_n the_o second_o proposition_n we_o here_o flat_o deny_v it_o be_v answer_v in_o our_o last_o word_n against_o the_o 2._o reason_n reason_n vi_o f._n johns_n if_o a_o woman_n consent_n to_o a_o man_n that_o be_v another_o woman_n husband_n they_o be_v not_o therefore_o man_n and_o wife_n so_o if_o a_o people_n consent_n to_o a_o false_a minister_n they_o be_v not_o therefore_o true_a church_n and_o minister_n h._n jacob_n this_o be_v answer_v as_o before_o in_o the_o four_o reason_n it_o carry_v some_o likelihood_n indeed_o and_o some_o reason_n against_o plurality_n but_o nothing_o any_o further_o reason_n vii_o f._n johns_n if_o when_o a_o man_n and_o woman_n give_v consent_v each_o to_o other_o the_o man_n do_v afterward_o give_v his_o body_n to_o another_o and_o so_o commit_v adultery_n then_o be_v the_o marriage_n knot_n break_v so_o if_o after_o a_o people_n have_v choose_v a_o man_n to_o be_v their_o minister_n he_o give_v himself_o to_o another_o &_o a_o false_a ministry_n and_o so_o commit_v spiritual_a whoredom_n then_o be_v the_o former_a knot_n break_v h._n jacob_n the_o take_n of_o order_n from_o a_o praelate_n after_o consent_v give_v to_o a_o miniter_n by_o a_o people_n be_v not_o like_a adultery_n in_o marriage_n especial_o whereboth_o pastor_n and_o people_n be_v simple_o ignorant_a of_o that_o error_n therefore_o that_o disannul_v not_o as_o adultery_n do_v the_o wedlock_n so_o this_o reason_n be_v much_o like_a to_o the_o last_o before_o and_o the_o answer_v not_o unlike_a to_o that_o of_o the_o four_o reason_n likewise_o for_o that_o which_o at_o the_o first_o make_v not_o uncapable_a that_o same_o afterward_o do_v not_o dissolve_v but_o this_o error_n make_v not_o christian_n uncapable_a at_o the_o first_o as_o there_o be_v show_v and_o in_o the_o three_o chief_o therefore_o neither_o can_v it_o dissolve_v afterward_o the_o covenant_n between_o the_o pastor_n and_o the_o people_n this_o last_o treatise_n have_v remain_v in_o their_o hand_n these_o three_o year_n and_o more_o unanswered_a finis_fw-la