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A36727 A conference between an orthodox Christian and a Socinian in four dialogues : wherein the late distinction of a real and nominal Trinitarian is considered / by H. de Lvzancy ... De Luzancy, H. C. (Hippolyte du Chastelet), d. 1713. 1698 (1698) Wing D2417; ESTC R31382 78,348 146

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of_o creator_n preserver_n etc._n etc._n but_o that_o this_o leave_v a_o internal_a incommunicable_a character_n essential_o inseparable_a from_o the_o deity_n that_o it_o may_v be_v say_v that_o god_n may_v never_o have_v be_v a_o creator_n but_o that_o it_o can_v be_v say_v that_o he_o may_v never_o have_v be_v a_o father_n the_o former_a be_v only_o a_o effect_n of_o his_o will_n but_o this_o latter_a the_o necessary_a result_n of_o his_o nature_n this_o you_o have_v pag._n 243._o but_o that_o which_o sink_v for_o ever_o this_o miserable_a imputation_n of_o sabellianism_n or_o nominalism_n call_v it_o which_o you_o please_v be_v the_o noble_a principle_n which_o this_o learned_a and_o worthy_a man_n have_v lay_v down_o animadv_n p._n 245._o in_o which_o as_o in_o the_o rest_n he_o have_v true_o speak_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n upon_o the_o whole_a matter_n in_o discourse_v of_o the_o trinity_n two_o thing_n be_v absolute_o necessary_a to_o be_v hold_v and_o insist_v upon_o one_o that_o each_o and_o every_o person_n of_o the_o bless_a trinity_n entire_o contain_v and_o include_v in_o himself_o the_o whole_a divine_a nature_n the_o other_o that_o each_o person_n be_v incommunicable_o different_a and_o distinct_a from_o one_o another_o i_o think_v you_o look_v dissatisfy_v when_o speak_v of_o this_o famous_a distinction_n of_o realist_n and_o nominal_n i_o use_v the_o word_n of_o slander_n calumny_n disingenuity_n let_v i_o now_o beg_v of_o you_o to_o give_v it_o a_o name_n socin_n true_o i_o must_v be_v force_v to_o tell_v you_o that_o i_o see_v this_o distinction_n urge_v so_o often_o our_o late_a print_n so_o full_a of_o it_o and_o honest_a mr._n e._n value_v himself_o so_o high_o upon_o it_o that_o i_o think_v it_o be_v more_o solid_a than_o real_o it_o be_v i_o will_v take_v time_n to_o consider_v of_o what_o you_o have_v say_v to_o it_o when_o i_o have_v next_o the_o happiness_n to_o see_v you_o you_o shall_v have_v my_o thought_n of_o it_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n ...._o orthod_n no_o i_o can_v leave_v you_o yet_o i_o must_v before_o we_o part_v complain_v of_o another_o injustice_n which_o your_o friend_n have_v do_v we_o socin_n what_o be_v that_o orthod_n that_o which_o my_o lord_n bishop_n of_o sarum_n call_v in_o his_o pastoral_a letter_n the_o heavy_a of_o all_o imputation_n that_o they_o submit_v to_o his_o lordship_n whole_a doctrine_n which_o differ_v in_o nothing_o from_o what_o the_o unitarian_n profess_v in_o all_o their_o write_n that_o be_v to_o say_v in_o plain_a english_a that_o he_o be_v a_o socinian_n a_o cruel_a and_o barbarous_a sort_n of_o a_o compliment_n to_o a_o catholic_n and_o a_o english_a bishop_n they_o do_v the_o same_o in_o effect_n to_o my_o lord_n of_o worcester_n in_o their_o last_o answer_n to_o his_o lordship_n book_n pag._n 62._o to_o the_o university_n of_o oxford_n to_o dr._n south_n who_o they_o call_v in_o derision_n brother_n south_n as_o they_o have_v do_v dr._n wallis_n father_n wallis_n in_o the_o answer_n to_o my_o lord_n of_o chichester_n they_o speak_v very_o plain_a pag._n 27._o it_o be_v say_v they_o by_o this_o declaration_n of_o our_o meaning_n that_o all_o our_o book_n past_n or_o to_o come_v be_v to_o be_v interpret_v we_o never_o intend_v to_o oppose_v any_o body_n in_o the_o article_n of_o the_o trinity_n but_o the_o tritheist_n or_o realist_n who_o be_v heretic_n to_o the_o church_n as_o well_o as_o to_o we_o nor_o in_o the_o article_n of_o the_o divinity_n of_o our_o saviour_n but_o the_o eutychian_o who_o make_v the_o communication_n of_o idiom_n to_o be_v real_a and_o not_o only_o verbal_a which_o be_v a_o heterodoxy_n condemn_v in_o divers_a general_n council_n that_o word_n general_a council_n which_o they_o esteem_v so_o little_o before_o be_v now_o of_o great_a value_n they_o tell_v this_o very_a bishop_n that_o they_o do_v not_o in_o the_o least_o suspect_n that_o he_o will_v disow_v the_o catholic_n doctrine_n and_o be_v of_o a_o party_n of_o 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be_v the_o book_n past_a or_o to_o come_v for_o the_o book_n past_a speak_v no_o such_o thing_n and_o i_o fear_v the_o book_n to_o come_v will_v not_o much_o mend_v the_o matter_n orthod_n i_o do_v not_o expect_v that_o you_o will_v not_o be_v serious_a in_o so_o mighty_a a_o concern_v as_o this_o i_o confess_v that_o it_o will_v be_v to_o i_o and_o to_o all_o good_a man_n a_o incredible_a satisfaction_n to_o see_v a_o end_n of_o this_o controversy_n but_o i_o tell_v you_o there_o be_v no_o sincerity_n in_o all_o this_o they_o be_v no_o more_o return_v to_o the_o sense_n and_o faith_n of_o the_o church_n than_o you_o be_v they_o build_v still_o upon_o that_o foolish_a distinction_n of_o realist_n or_o tritheïst_n and_o nominal_n or_o sabellian_n the_o first_o be_v a_o monster_n of_o their_o own_o make_n 〈◊〉_d other_o be_v a_o shelter_n to_o their_o heterodoxy_n 〈◊〉_d they_o maintain_v a_o trinity_n which_o be_v no_o trinity_n 〈◊〉_d strive_v to_o advance_v error_n under_o her_o 〈…〉_o the_o pillar_n of_o truth_n in_o short_a if_o the_o trinity_n believe_v and_o teach_v by_o the_o church_n be_v sabellianism_n they_o be_v your_o humble_a servant_n it_o be_v that_o that_o they_o will_v cover_v socinianism_n by_o but_o how_o can_v they_o believe_v as_o the_o church_n when_o the_o doctrine_n which_o they_o pretend_v to_o return_v to_o be_v that_o to_o which_o the_o church_n be_v irreconcilable_a socin_n how_o must_v they_o do_v then_o to_o convince_v you_o that_o they_o sincere_o desire_v a_o peace_n and_o be_v come_v over_o to_o you_o orthod_n by_o write_v with_o that_o respect_n which_o be_v due_a to_o bishop_n of_o who_o in_o the_o answer_n to_o mr._n edward_n pag._n 13._o they_o own_o the_o institution_n to_o be_v of_o divine_a right_n let_v they_o receive_v the_o catholic_n creed_n that_o of_o the_o great_a athanasius_n the_o doxology_n and_o the_o article_n of_o the_o church_n of_o englang_n then_o and_o not_o before_o i_o will_v believe_v that_o they_o be_v 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it_o i_o confess_v that_o when_o that_o which_o be_v propose_v be_v obscure_a intricate_a and_o capable_a of_o several_a sense_n the_o conclusion_n may_v be_v different_a and_o i_o can_v without_o injustice_n deny_v that_o you_o shall_v examine_v the_o consistency_n or_o contradiction_n of_o my_o deduction_n but_o i_o maintain_v that_o most_o of_o the_o proposition_n by_o which_o our_o holy_a faith_n be_v establish_v be_v of_o such_o plainness_n that_o no_o equitable_a man_n can_v fix_v any_o other_o sense_n upon_o they_o than_o what_o they_o offer_v themselves_o that_o i_o may_v not_o give_v you_o any_o occasion_n of_o mistake_v i_o for_o your_o friend_n be_v admirable_a at_o this_o and_o if_o they_o can_v but_o lie_v hold_v on_o it_o they_o present_o expatiate_v and_o lose_v the_o question_n i_o mean_v no_o more_o than_o as_o to_o the_o existence_n of_o the_o revelation_n that_o be_v that_o there_o be_v such_o a_o thing_n reveal_v though_o not_o as_o to_o the_o manner_n of_o the_o 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no_o idea_n if_o i_o can_v walk_v in_o a_o smooth_a and_o open_a path_n i_o be_o resolve_v to_o stay_v at_o home_n orthod_n i_o be_o myself_o of_o your_o mind_n i_o take_v then_o reason_n to_o be_v a_o faculty_n of_o the_o soul_n by_o which_o we_o endeavour_v to_o find_v out_o the_o truth_n either_o by_o way_n of_o inference_n or_o by_o a_o plain_a and_o simple_a perception_n what_o have_v you_o to_o except_o against_o this_o socin_n nothing_o at_o all_o for_o i_o think_v that_o all_o our_o knowledge_n come_v these_o two_o way_n yet_o if_o the_o word_n endeavour_v fall_v upon_o the_o last_o as_o well_o as_o upon_o the_o first_o part_n of_o the_o definition_n it_o seem_v somewhat_o incongruous_a for_o simple_a perception_n offer_v themselves_o to_o we_o and_o be_v almost_o the_o only_a thing_n of_o which_o the_o certainty_n be_v not_o dispute_v but_o yet_o as_o it_o be_v by_o compare_v the_o least_o know_a with_o the_o most_o know_a principle_n that_o we_o do_v reason_n and_o that_o 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my_o heart_n to_o thy_o testimony_n prov._n 16.1_o the_o preparation_n of_o the_o heart_n be_v from_o the_o lord_n the_o church_n you_o say_v be_v not_o fond_a of_o calvin_n principle_n true_o but_o our_o abhorrency_n from_o clavinianism_n must_v not_o drive_v we_o to_o pelagianism_n i_o may_v detest_v a_o opinion_n inconsistent_a with_o the_o goodness_n of_o god_n without_o throw_v myself_o into_o a_o excess_n injurious_a to_o the_o grace_n of_o christ_n the_o definition_n than_o be_v good_a and_o safe_a but_o because_o i_o be_o willing_a if_o possible_a to_o remove_v all_o your_o prejudices_fw-la i_o will_v put_v it_o in_o few_o word_n i'faith_o then_o be_v a_o firm_a assent_n to_o what_o god_n have_v reveal_v to_o we_o socin_n i_o can_v quarrel_v with_o this_o it_o be_v well_o that_o once_o at_o least_o you_o will_v be_v plain_a orthod_n it_o be_v well_o that_o there_o be_v something_o which_o you_o will_v not_o deny_v this_o definition_n though_o not_o so_o exact_a as_o it_o 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unlearned_a part_n of_o the_o world_n be_v as_o capable_a of_o this_o as_o the_o learned_a nay_o much_o more_o for_o beside_o the_o plainness_n of_o the_o revelation_n their_o perception_n in_o what_o they_o understand_v be_v more_o direct_a and_o not_o clog_v with_o subtlety_n as_o we_o be_v they_o have_v i_o be_o afraid_a a_o more_o sincere_a respect_n for_o the_o divine_a revelation_n than_o we_o take_v a_o honest_a countryman_n and_o ask_v he_o who_o be_v he_o that_o be_v bless_v over_o all_o for_o ever_o he_o will_v answer_v immediate_o god._n show_v he_o in_o the_o scripture_n that_o this_o be_v say_v of_o christ_n he_o will_v immediate_o conclude_v that_o christ_n be_v god._n object_n to_o he_o that_o if_o christ_n be_v god_n and_o the_o father_n god_n than_o there_o be_v two_o go_n he_o will_v immediate_o reply_v no_o they_o be_v but_o one_o for_o god_n be_v but_o one_o you_o may_v puzzle_v he_o with_o your_o ratiocination_n he_o may_v be_v at_o a_o stand_n and_o hear_v you_o 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the_o second_o and_o the_o second_o the_o first_o how_o can_v he_o be_v one_o and_o three_o three_o and_o one_o orthod_n this_o be_v still_o beg_v of_o the_o question_n god_n can_v propose_v nothing_o contradictory_n or_o inconsistent_a i_o confess_v i_o can_v understand_v how_o this_o be_v but_o it_o be_v reveal_v therefore_o certain_o true_a and_o on_o that_o account_n i_o believe_v it_o socin_n you_o believe_v that_o christ_n be_v god_n and_o man_n infinite_a and_o finite_a immortal_a and_o mortal_a the_o supreme_a most_o high_a god_n and_o yet_o suffer_v and_o die_v he_o be_v god_n and_o he_o be_v send_v he_o be_v god_n and_o yet_o pray_v to_o god_n he_o be_v god_n over_o all_o and_o yet_o subject_a to_o he_o who_o put_v all_o thing_n under_o he_o if_o this_o be_v not_o inconsistent_a i_o do_v not_o know_v what_o inconsistency_n be_v orthod_n if_o plato_n aristotle_n or_o any_o of_o the_o son_n of_o man_n shall_v tell_v i_o this_o i_o will_v speak_v as_o you_o do_v but_o god_n be_v true_a and_o he_o say_v all_o this_o i_o adore_v the_o divine_a oeconomy_n though_o i_o understand_v it_o not_o to_o be_v god_n and_o man_n be_v no_o contradiction_n the_o scripture_n represent_v christ_n as_o god_n bless_v over_o all_o for_o ever_o it_o represent_v he_o also_o as_o a_o man._n nothing_o can_v be_v more_o express_a than_o the_o declaration_n of_o his_o divinity_n nothing_o more_o clear_a than_o those_o of_o his_o humanity_n which_o part_n of_o the_o revelation_n shall_v reason_n overthrow_v convince_v by_o the_o proof_n of_o his_o humanity_n you_o will_v say_v that_o he_o be_v no_o god_n another_o convince_v by_o the_o proof_n of_o his_o divinity_n will_v deny_v that_o he_o be_v a_o man._n thus_o reason_n more_o inconsistent_a with_o itself_o than_o you_o fancy_n revelation_n to_o be_v will_v reject_v every_o part_n and_o destroy_v the_o whole_a socin_n no._n reason_n will_v reconcile_v all_o and_o by_o a_o easy_a explication_n will_v make_v he_o a_o inferior_a or_o a_o 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much_o right_a to_o examine_v the_o truth_n of_o the_o thing_n propose_v as_o the_o proposition_n itself_o and_o to_o reject_v it_o if_o it_o be_v not_o agreeable_a to_o its_o principle_n orthod_n but_o you_o can_v never_o prove_v that_o reason_n be_v capable_a of_o examine_v that_o which_o be_v above_o reason_n and_o such_o be_v thing_n reveal_v their_o truth_n indeed_o depend_v from_o the_o conformity_n which_o they_o have_v with_o the_o supreme_a reason_n which_o be_v god_n but_o in_o respect_n to_o we_o their_o truth_n consist_v not_o in_o their_o agreeableness_n to_o you_o or_o my_o reason_n but_o whole_o in_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o revelation_n they_o be_v true_a because_o they_o be_v reveal_v socin_n but_o be_v not_o my_o
reason_n a_o part_n of_o that_o supreme_a reason_n truth_n be_v but_o one_o either_o in_o the_o creator_n or_o in_o the_o creature_n revelation_n can_v make_v that_o true_a which_o appear_v to_o i_o unreasonable_a orthod_n you_o will_v never_o be_v weary_a of_o urge_v the_o same_o thing_n over_o and_o over_o again_o whatsoever_o god_n reveal_v be_v true_a but_o you_o say_v it_o do_v not_o square_a with_o my_o apprehension_n nay_o it_o contradict_v they_o therefore_o it_o be_v not_o true_a what_o a_o strange_a way_n of_o reason_v be_v this_o truth_n in_o god_n be_v truth_n in_o man._n grant_v but_o be_v it_o in_o the_o same_o extent_n or_o degree_n do_v we_o know_v as_o much_o as_o god_n a_o spark_n will_v pretend_v to_o be_v as_o luminous_a as_o the_o body_n of_o the_o sun_n i_o see_v as_o through_o a_o glass_n dark_o and_o i_o will_v judge_v of_o he_o who_o inhabit_v a_o fullness_n of_o light_n which_o no_o mortal_a can_v come_v near_o unto_o job_n 10.4_o he_o must_v have_v eye_n of_o flesh_n and_o see_v as_o a_o man_n see_v or_o else_o i_o will_v not_o believe_v what_o he_o say_v this_o be_v monstrous_a and_o not_o worth_a insist_v upon_o let_v we_o therefore_o proceed_v reason_n then_o be_v satisfy_v in_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o revelation_n can_v act_v like_o itself_o except_o it_o receive_v with_o the_o humble_a and_o firm_a submission_n what_o god_n have_v reveal_v and_o as_o st._n paul_n express_v it_o 2_o cor._n 10.5_o cast_v down_o imagination_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d reason_v and_o every_o high_a thing_n that_o exalt_v itself_o against_o the_o knowledge_n of_o god_n and_o bring_v into_o captivity_n every_o thought_n to_o the_o obedience_n of_o christ_n it_o be_v a_o great_a part_n of_o a_o christian_n duty_n to_o correct_v the_o extravagance_n of_o reason_n for_o it_o be_v stubborn_a restless_a and_o impatient_a of_o government_n it_o must_v be_v cast_v down_o and_o chain_v up_o as_o one_o which_o if_o let_v alone_o will_v be_v outrageous_o mad_a 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