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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	know_v	scripture_n	tradition_n	4,218	5	9.5610	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

the Spirit unto those who were the Penmen of the Scriptures and remaines unto us unto this day a rule in the letter concerning things to be beleeved and practiced by us E. B. I say the Scriptures Declare the Word of God and therefore are not the Word for that which declares and that which is Declared are not one and the same thing but two P. T. You have heard the distinction which is a full answer to this but do you not grant that that heavenly Doctrin which is there Declared is truth E. B. Yea I grant it P. T. And that those holy men of God who writ the Scriptures did both speak and write as they were moved by the holy Spirit E. B. Yea I say so also P. T. And that those things there declared and given forth in writing are things to be beleeved and practiced by us in these our dayes as well as by those in whose generation they were written E. B. I grant all this P. T. Then you say in effect the same and no other then what we do viz. that the Scriptures are the Declarative Word of God and consequently the wide difference as it seems betweene us concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God is rather in words and expressions then in matter and substance R. G. What they grant doth not yet satisfie us for they acknowledge the Scriptures onely a Declaration and deny it to be the Word but I say further and will prove it that the Scriptures are the Word of God W. F. The letter of the Scriptures R. G. Yea the Letter W. F. Mark that Collonel speaking to Collonel Bisco who was there present he sayes he will prove the letter to be the Word R. G. I say the Letter by a Figure Before the argument was laid down one of them called Quakers whose name I know not produced that text of the Apostle 2 Cor. 3.6 calling out to the People to hearken to the form of wholesome words who also hath made us able Ministers of the new Testament not of the Letter but of the Spirit for the Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life W. F. The Apostle was a Minister of the word and Gospel of Christ and he sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit but thou sayest the Letter is the Word of God and wilt undertake to prove it wilt thou then contradict the Apostle and prove him a Minister of the Letter when himself sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit R. G. You wrest the Apostles words who doth not there speak of or meane the Letter of the Scriptures but the difference between the legall and Gospel Ministration W. F. But thou saidst that thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God R. G. I said I would prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God which I am ready to do but ye are so full of words that ye will hear none but your selves nor give me leave to speak W. F. Well we will hear thee R. G. I lay it down in this argument That which Christ and his Apostles owned to be the word of God is indeed and in-truth the Word of God and ought to be so owned by us But Christ and his Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God Ergo The assumption or minor Proposition R. G. proved by two texts of Scripture the first concerning Christs owning the Scriptures to be the Word of God I doe not well remember but in stead of that take another Mark 7.13 Making the word of God of none authority by your tradition which ye have ordained c. The Lord Christ in the former part of the Chap reproves the hypocrisie of the Pharisees and tels them vers 8. For ye lay aside the Commands of God and observe the traditions of men The 10th verse makes it evident that by the Commands of God which they rejected Christ means the law given from God to the people of Israel by the hand of Moses which was a written Law and the same which he calls the Commands of God ver 8 9. he calls the word of God vers 13. making the word of God of none effect or of none authority by your traditions c. it relates to the Law given by Moses and more particularly to the fifth Commandement Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. which was one of the ten and written by the same hand as the rest were whence clearly appears that Christ owned and called the written Law the Word of God R. G. And that the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God will appear by comparing that text 1 Thess 2.13 with some others For this cause also we thank God without ceasing that when ye received the Word of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the Word of man but as it is indeed the Word of God You see in this text that what the Apostle preached and these Thessalonians received was indeed the word of God Now that which the Apostle preached was no other than what had been long before spoken and written by Moses and the Prophets For proof of this ye may consult Act. 26.22 and 28.23 whence appears that what was written by Moses and the Prophets was owned by the Apostle as the Word of God W. F. Thou speakest now of that which is written but didst undertake and saidst thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God P. T. He said by a Figure W. F. Thou saidst the Letter R. G. You cannot conceive since I speak of a Figure that my meaning was the meer writing but by Letter and Scripture I meant the thing conteining for the thing conteined the writing for the thing written E. B. Well I will answer thee The Apostle preached the Gospell and this we grant is the word and power of God to salvation unto every one that beleeveth the Gospell is the word and power of God but not the Scriptures and it is the Gospel which the Apostle preached and which the Thessalonians received not as the word of man but as it was indeed the word of God the Gospel is the Word of God the Scriptures are not P. T. There is a twofold coming of the Gospel viz. in word and secondly in power 1 Thes 1.5 and it is the same the very same Gospel of Christ in the hand of both Ministrations the same Gospel of Christ when it comes in word and Letter as when it comes in Spirit and Power Again the Apostle writ the same which he preached he did not preach one thing and write another but the same Gospel and word of truth which he preached the same he writ if that therefore which he preached was not the word of man but indeed the word of God then that which he writ was also not the word of man but truly indeed the word of God Let us here ad another text though not then

mentioned 2 Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of the Prophets c. The Apostle Peter cals that which the Prophets spake and writ the Word ye will not I hope say the word of man but the word of God in the mouth and writings of the Prophets E. B. The Scripture is that a man may carry up and down with him in his hand or pocket but so he cannot the word yea if the Scripture be the word then I may say I have the word of God in my hand lifting up his Book to the people that all might see it then I may say I have Christ in my hand and I have the Spirit in my hand I have Life and Death Heaven and Hell in my hand c. R. G. You have that in your hand which declares all these these were R. G. words not as some have said you have the thing signified but you have that which Declares all these E. B. So I say this Scripture Declares those things it is a Declaration of the Word but is not it self the Word P. T. It is not the Essentiall word but the Declarative word of God wherein the mind will and counsell of God concerning us is made known E. B. The Word was before any Scripture was given for they were given many years after the creation of the world and some of them at one time some at another but the word was from eternity P. T. Those Doctrins of divine and heavenly truth recorded and delivered to us in the Scriptures were the things of the Spirit of God before committed to writing and remaine the same in this day of the Scriptures and shall be the same when the Scripture viz. the writing shall be no more but this doth not at all contradict what hath been asserted viz. that the thing written is this word of God the mind will and counsell of God given forth to us in writing which we are to own and follow as a Rule to us in all our wayes E. B. I pray all take notice what I say The Scriptures are but writing and therefore cannot be the Word of God the writing is not the Word but the thing written of P. T. You have been sufficiently answered already but you will receive none onely go your Round in a circle We do not affirm that the ABC c. or that words of the Scripture as they consist and are made up of Letters and syllables are the Word of God but that which is exprest by these The Spirit makes use of these words consisting of letters and syllables to speak to us as we are able to bear and to understand and that which is here written viz the mind and meaning of the Spirit exprest in these words in this writing or Scripture is that we call and own the word of God or the things of the Spirit of God Declared and given forth to us in writing The second thing debated was concering Justification which took up neare two hours time wherein I spake little by reason I could fully close with neither party In which discourse words were multiplyed and especially by them called Quakers who would oft-times speak two or three successively giving way to none other I thing I may truely say that I never spent so long time in hearing spirituall things spoken to with lesse profit whatsoever it was to others it was to me a most wearisome and unprofitable Discourse which I shall leave till the last and then give a breife hint of it The third thing laid down formerly by E. B. for Doctrine and now objected against by R. G. was III. That evill motions not consented to were not sin And what plain contradiction is here to own them evill and yet not sin unlesse consented to If evill motions then are they a deviation from the holy righteous and good law of God and consequently unrighteousness and the Apostle tells us All unrighteousness is sin 1 Iohn 5.17 Bellarmine layes it down more subtilly for it is one of his Doctrines when he sayes concupiscence is not sin unless consented to but to grant them evill motions and yet deny them to be sin till consent be given who can be so dull sighted as not to see a plain contradiction in such a position if evil in their own nature how can they be called otherwise then sin even before consented to if neither evil nor sin how can consent make them sin E. B. Thou hast not laid down my words right according to my meaning R. G. They are the very same words I heard you deliver without any alteration W. F. We say that temptations are not sin or transgressions unless consented to Mr. Hall of Colbrook in Middlesex do you speak of temptations from without or such which have their rise from within and out of a mans own heart E. B. I said then and say the same now that temptations unto sin are not sin without consent For the Devill tempted Christ who yet did no sin because he consented not to the temptation R. G. You now speak of temptations which are from without and from the Devil which we grant are not our sin unless consented to but our question is according to what you seemed to own in your discourse whether evil thoughts and motions which are from within and rise out of the heart are not sin unless consented to W. F. Dost thou grant no difference between thoughts and motions R. G. Those motions to sin which arise out of a mans own heart have ever the thoughts going along with them and whether consented to or no Salomon tells us the thought of folly is sin E. B. I say motions to sin are not sin without consent R. G. Such motions which arise out of a mans own heart E. B. Yea Such motions R. G. And take along with you all your own words viz. Evill motions arising out of a mans own heart are not sin unless consented to And what is a contradiction if this be not evil motions and yet not sin our consent makes them more sinful but cannot make them to be sin if they were not such before E. B. They are not my sin although evill in themselves unless I consent R. G. whose sin are they then W. F. They are not his sin unless he consents Ye know the Apostles words It is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me Rom. 7.20 Mr. Hall Who is that Me in whom sin is found was it not Paul and who is that Him in whom sin dwells is it not Edward Burroughs W. F. Ye see according to the Apostle it is not he that doth it but sin that dwelleth in him Mr. Hall In the Apostle was flesh found as well as spirit and these two were contrary maintaining war one against another the Apostle being the person or subject in whom were both found And while E. B. sayes it is not I but sin that dwels in me Who is the Me in whom

holy Scripture was written chiefly though not onely for the sake and benefit of the Saints to the Worlds end for their learning in chief was the Scripture given Rom. 15.4 and therefore that giddy Assertion which is affirmed to have dropped from E. Burroughs mouth viz. That the Scriptures are given to the World not to the Saints hath no footing to bear up it self upon E. B. I grant the Epistles were given to the Saints P. T. It is well you grant it though I do not see how you should deny it and not onely the Epistles but all other the holy Scriptures as the Apostle cals them 2 Tim. 3.15 were given to the Saints No more was spoken to this for the night grew on and I think hardly any but were sufficiently wearied with a confused and unprofitable Discourse The company beginning to break up E. B. pretended a charge against R. G. concerning something which he had preached either a year or years agone in Bedfordshire but the people not caring to hear him any longer he forbore to speak farther as to that and turned his discourse to his own Proselytes How far E. B. owns the authority of the Scriptures of the New-Testament doth not clearly appear and whether he denies the Scriptures of the Old-Testament as being of no use to the Saints I am not able to say but if this should be in his or in the heart of any of his followers let that of the Apostle be consulted with if the Scriptures which himself in so many words owned to be given to the Saints may be for satisfaction Rom. 15.4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning c. Things written aforetime relate to the Scriptures of the Old-Testament to those things written in the Books of Moses the Prophets and the Psalms c. and of these the Apostle affirms they were written for our learning which relates not to the World but to the Saints for the Apostle puts himself in the number of those for whose sake in chief these things were written The Apostle indeed tels us 1 Cor. 24.22 wherefore Tongues are for a sign not to them that beleeve but to them that beleeve not but the same Apostle affirms the Scripture to be given chiefly for the sake of the Saints and such who do beleeve in the text formerly mentioned There were some of the Company jealous of these men lest they might be Jesuites but I speak freely my thoughts I do not beleeve any such thing concerning either of them W. F. though a man of subtilty enough to make him one of that Fraternity which he discovered abundantly more in a former meeting as I was informed from some there present then in this yet was known to some of the Company from whence he came and how he hath turned from one thing to another till he came at last to this Sect of Quakers And for E. B. I do not apprehend him to be a man of such parts and of that measure of subtilty which is ordinarily found among the men of that Brotherhood unless he had more than an ordinary art of hiding himself under a garbe of pretended simplicity so that for my part I do not judge or beleeve any such thing concerning either of them though I fear too many such Deceivers are crept in among us shrouding themselves under several Forms where they can find most shelter and of these more who are Jesuites in Principles than Jesuites in Orders I apply it not to these I hope better things of them The second thing which was concerning Justification I passed over in its proper place but shall now give a brief hint of it in the close of this relation It was very large with multiplicity of words on their part called Quakers but as confused and unprofitable a discourse as ever I heard The thing delivered for Doctrine by E. B. and objected against by R. G. was II. That no man is further Justified than he is Sanctified E. B. Thou hast mistaken my words as laid down by me R. G. These were the very words you expressed and no alteration E. B. I said that Sanctification was an evidence of Justification and that no man could any further know himself to be justified than as he was sanctified R. G. You spake nothing of an Evidence or of a mans knowing his Justification by his Sanctification but confounded both together throughout your Discourse and having first laid it down as your Assertion That no man is Justified further than he is Sanctified you had also not long after these words viz. no man is justified further than he is restored E. B. I say that whosoever is justified is restored from a state of ignorance and death into a state of light and life and sanctified in the whole man that he may live to God P. T. Justification and Sanctification are never separate as to the subject Justified but whom God justifies the same he sanctifies yet are these two distinguished in their nature E. B. I grant that these are never divided but he that is justified is sanctified and he who is sanctified is justified R. G. Though not divided or separate when we speak of the person justified but the same who is justified is also sanctified yet are they distinguished in their proper natures and we may not confound them together but let us know what you own the cause of Justification E. B. The Free-Grace of God R. G. That is the primary efficient but I querie concerning the Meritorious cause or whether we are justified by that righteousness which Christ wrought out for us in his own person or by the work of righteousness which he works in us by his Spirit E. B. Justification is onely by Jesus Christ Upon this an ancient man of the company whose name I knew not desired to hear from E. B. what he beleeved concerning Christ for I have saith he read somewhat in a Book of yours concerning what you believe but that not giving full satisfaction as to what and how far you own Christ the Mediator between God and Man I would willingly be further satisfied at this time from your own mouth and this happily might give some further light concerning what you own in this point E. B. I beleeve that Christ was born of a Virgin and that both in his birth and life he was without sin that he was crucified at Jerusalem and rose again from the dead c. He fully acknowledged the History of Christs life and death but concerning the end of Christs dying he spake little if any thing at all I do not remember that his long confession had any thing of that acknowledgement in it Who was delivered for our offences and raised again for our Justification Rom. 4.25 and yet probable he may own it I believe he doth R. G. This is nothing to the purpose you have not yet granted Christs Righteousness a cause of Justification E. B. I say that we are