expounde the Latin according to the Hebrue but to alaye the Hebrue according to the Latine Wherefore in that I saide that if we should goe from your authenticall Latin to the originall textes it would be misliked of I doo you no iniurie Yet I mislike it not in your plea for Peter that you take aduantage not of the originall but of a translation nay I like it well Though I like not that which you adde to proue it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Greeke toong dooth signifie a rocke as Cephas in the Syriake and so the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haue one meaning For they haue one meaning not because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a rocke as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a stone as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifieth a stone your owne learned linguists as you call them note and examples thereof are rife But that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any where signifieth a rocke neither doo they shew nor haue other skilfuâ—l of that toong obserued You say that it is so in the Athenian language but you bring no Athenian nor any Grecian else to witnesse it And the French toong which foloweth the Gréeke as in many other words so in this hath the same word you know for a stone and for the name of Peter Wherein there is a print of the true originall meaning of that name in the Gréeke toong But Christ did call him Cephas in the Syriake toong and Cephas you say doth signifie a rocke as Fabricius sheweth But Fabricius sheweth further that Cephas doth signifie a stone also And though he or rather the Iewe whom he citeth reporteth their saying who expounde the name as taken from that worde in signification of a rocke yet hauing mentioned the other of a stone he saith therevpon that so his name is Peter in the Romane toong and in the Italian a stone is called pereda Whereunto I might adde that an other learned writer of the Iewes and auncienter then he doeth likewise say as opening the sense of Peters name that he is called stone But that Christ did meane a stone not a rocke in naming him Cephas your stoutest champion D. Sanders may serue in stéed of many witnesses For he wanting no will to go as far as the boldest and hauing many yeares aduised of the matter durst say no more for Cephas but that it signifieth a stone at the most a great stone euen petra it selfe he doeth expound in this maner Super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam Thou shalt bee the first stone next me of that church which I will build on earth In the which iudgement he doeth deserue the greater credite at your handes because he was contented to hazard his life with the Pope against his Prince in that holy quarell and hauing spent his chiefest studie in the point he had before times expounded it a rocke the which exposition so fit for the Papacy he would haue neuer left had not the truth enforced him to retire from it A thing so much the likelier because when hee laboured first to infect men with the Popes supremacie by the name of rocke and therfore both in the title and course of all his booke did sound the rocke of the church euen then he did expound Cephas and Peter doubtfully a rocke or a stone and yelding the reason why Christ did name him so he mentioned a stone onely because what place a stone hath in holding vp the house which is built vpon it the same should Peter haue in vpholding the frame of Christes militant church Wherefore you must let go your holde of the rocke whereon D. Stapleton doth beast your house is built and be content to lay a stone in stéed of it Let our Sauiour Christ alone be the rocke If you dash your selfe against him therein he will breake you in péeces Hart. It is a disputable point You sée that learned men are of sundrie iudgements in expounding of it some thinking it betokeneth a stone some a rocke Wherefore you can not force me to take the one and leaue the other Rainoldes Not by mens wordes but by the word of God I can For Christ in the Syriake toong did name him Cephas and Cephas in the Gréeke is expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in English signifieth a stone And sure you had done better if as the Gréeke text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Syriake translation Cephas Cephas so you had made it in English stone and stone For Peter and peter doth not expresse the force of the Syriake word Rocke and rocke is strong but the text doth not beare it Stone and stone is fit had you not thought it too slender Now sith you doo presse the Syriake translation to shew thereby the meaning of the Latin as you say you must giue me leaue to tell you that the wordes should be rather Englished after the Syriake thus Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church Hart. Rocke or stone if I should giue you leaue to choose whither of them you list what gaine you thereby Rainoldes The truth which I deale for shall gaine thus much by it that although you construe those words that Christ would build his church vpon Peter for your most aduantage euen as Sanders doth yet is it not proued thereby that Christ did promise him a supreme-headship ouer the Aposâ—les For the church of Christ which is the company of Gods elect and chosen isresembled in Scripture to a materiall temple such as was the temple which Salomon built So as that was called a house the house of prayer in like sort the church is called a house too but a spirituall house to distinguish it from that which house because it must be made of all the godly as it were of stones grounded on Christ by faith though the doctrine of the Apostles therefore Christ is called the chiefe corner stone in respect of the Iewes and Gentiles as of walls which are ioyned in him the foundation in respect of the whole house yea the foundation of foundation as the Prophet termeth him the twelue Apostles laid next vpon Christ are called twelue foundations the faithfull laide on them or rather after them on him are called stones not dead ones such as the temple had but liuing the working and framing of them to this purpose is called building and edifying which is done by preaching of the word of truth coupling them togither betwéene them selues and with Christ that they may grow to bee a holie temple in the Lord for God to dwell in by his spirite Wherefore if the wordes of Christ be
infallible the councels interpretation And these meanes he saith are the onely certaine sure infallible meanes of vnderstanding and expounding the Scripture aright As for other meanes which learned men do vse such as you obserued out of S. Austin he graunteth they are profitable but deceitfull many waies if ech of them be seuerally taken by it selfe Which he proueth in particular by the chiefest of them first the weighing of circumstances what goeth before what commeth after next the wordes and kinde of speeches vsed in the Scriptures thirdly the conferēce of places togither one to be lightned by an other fourthly recourse to the fountaines of the Greeke and the Hebrue text Wherefore though I acknowledge your way to be a good way and such as I am well content to walke in when these our waies shall lead me to it notwithstanding sith it is common to vs with all Heretikes yea with Iewes and Painims who do all conferre places obserue the kinde of spéeches looke on the Gréeke and Hebrue fountaines marke what goeth before what commeth after and such like thinges and yet they are verye farre from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures I will my selfe practise it when I shall see good but there is no reason of yours that can enforce me to allow it simply Rainoldes The treatise of your Doctor against the Protestants opinion is like the army of Antiochus prepared against the Romans verie great and huge of men of many nations but white liuered souldiours neither so strong with armour as glistering with gold and siluer Antiochus him selfe was amazed at it and thought it vnuincible so did the simple fooles of his country too But the Romans contemned it and Annibal iested at it The name of Protestants which he vseth tauntingly as all one with Heretikes wée are no more ashamed of then were the Prophets and Apostles whom the Spirit of God hath honored with that title because they did make a protestation of their faith vpon the like occasion as did the faithfull in Germany when they were noted by that name The Protestants opinion I haue alreadie shewed to be the opinion of the auncient Protestants the Fathers the Apostles the holie Ghost who spake by them If you call it an errour we are content to erre with them If he thinke it an heresie we are no better then Paul who in such heresie serued God The ground which he layeth for the disproofe of it is such that it séemeth his wits and he had made a fray when he layed it He saith that the scripture ought to be expounded by the rule of faith and therfore not by scripture onely Which is in effect as if a man should say the church must be taught by liuing creatures endued with reason and therefore not by men onely For as a liuing creature endued with reason and a man is all one which euerie childe knoweth by the principles of logicke so the rule of faith and scripture is all one doth not your Doctor know it It is a principle of diuinitie deliuered by S. Austin whom he pretendeth chiefly in this point to follow Hart. And doth he not follow him Doth he not alleage S. Austins owne wordes In a doubtfull place of scripture let a man seeke the rule of faith which rule hee hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to proue that the rule of faith must be fetched out of the authoritie of the church also not out of scriptures onely Rainoldes Yes he doth alleage S. Austins wordes in déed but as the false witnesses alleaged Christes wordes of destroying the temple and building it in three dayes the wordes against the meaning Which tricke the law noteth as an abusing of the lawe yet is it common with your Doctor For as Christ when he spake of raising the temple by the temple meant his bodie the witnesses did wrest it to the temple of Ierusalem so the authoritie of the church is mentioned by S. Austin as teaching scriptures onely your Doctor alleageth it as teaching somewhat beside the scriptures Hart. This is strange that S. Austin by the authoritie of the church meant no more then by the plainer places of the scriptures For so much you séeme to say in effect Rainoldes Be it strange yet is it true For him selfe declareth that to be his meaning not onely by the rest of his whole treatise wherein he doth establish the scriptures alone for the rule of faith to shew the sense of doubtfuller places by the plainer but also by the ende of this your owne sentence which Stapleton in alleaging it either negligently passed or craftily suppressed vnlesse the fault perhaps be in some other with whose eyes he read it For after these wordes let him seeke the rule of faith which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church it followeth in S. Austin Of which rule we haue sufficiently entreated in the first booke when we spake of thinges Now in that discourse to which he referreth vs he spake not of any thing as taught by the church but what is in the scripture Wherefore in these wordes by the authoritie of the church he meant not any thing beside the scripture If he did shew it If he did not acknowledge it Hart. He did For in the first booke where he spake of things hee shewed that the doctrine of the Trinitie is comprised in that rule of faith Which yet is not expresly set downe in the scriptures Rainoldes Expresly What meane you by this word expresly Hart. I meane that it is not expressed in the scriptures Rainoldes What Not the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost Hart. Not all that our faith doth hold of the Trinitie Rainoldes God forbid that we should hold of such a mysterie more then he teacheth by his word Hart. Certainly S. Austin writing to an Arian who denied that God the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father saith that as we reade not in the holie scriptures the Father vnbegotten yet it is defended that it must be said in lyke sort it may be that neither consubstantiall is founde written there and yet being said in the assertion of faith may bee defended And again disputing against Maximinus a Bishop of the Ariās Giue me testimonies saist thou where the holy Ghost is worshipped as though by those things which we do read we vnderstood not some thinges also which wee reade not But that I be not inforced to seeke many where hast thou read God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne And yet it is true Rainoldes And thinke you that S. Austin meant by these spéeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped God the Sonne is of one substance with the Father God the Father is
not begotten or borne Hart. Hée séemeth to haue meant it And Torrensis who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which haue come to vs from the Apostles themselues deliuered as it were by hand although they bee not written expresly in scriptures Rainoldes The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God to S. Austins credit and to you who reade him And yet with such a sophisme in the word expresly that if it should be laid vnto his charge he would wash his handes of it as Pilate did of Christes blood For he alleageth those places of S. Austin thereby to proue Traditions as though we had receiued that doctrine touching God by tradition vnwritten not by the written word S. Austin no such matter But dealing with an Arian who required the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps Wherevpon he presseth him in like sort with the word vnbegotten which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father and defending it S. Austin replieth that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten well although the word not written so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby And as with this Arian so with their bishop Maximinus Who hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne because it is not written that he is worshipped To the which cauill of his S. Austin answereth that although it be not written in flat termes yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God the holy Ghost is God therefore to bee worshipped Thus S. Austins meaning was of these pointes that the scripture teacheth them Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures left him selfe this refuge that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures And yet by referring that title to traditions induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition not by scripture A doctrine which Arians will clappe their handes at that the Sonne of God is not by scripture of one substance with the Father But let it be far from you M. Hart to thinke so prophanely of the word of God And if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side rest here on Thomas of Aquine rather who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture either in words or in sense Which as he confirfirmeth by Denys and Damascen so was it the common iudgement of the Fathers of S. Austin chiefly as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew And in the conclusion thereof for euident proofe of that which you denied he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point And as for that point so for all the rest which in that very booke whereof we spake S. Austin noteth It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by the authoritie of the church more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures Hart. Yes his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe me thinkes that he did For if he signified by plainer places of the scriptures as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle when he had named the one to adde the other to it chiefly in such sort as that is added by S. Austin For both the coniunction the places of scriptures and the authoritie of the church should import thinges different and I may say of wordes as the Philosopher saith of things That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer Rainoldes Nothing is done in vaine that is done to edifie The church might well be mentioned as an interpreter of the worde though it teach not any thing beside the word of God The people of Israel did beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him The wise man doth charge his sonne to hearken to the instruction of his father and forsake not the doctrine of his mother yet they both the father and mother teach one lesson the chiefest wisedome the feare of God The same is fulfilled in this Moses and the Lord or rather in this mother and our heauenly Father of whom it hath bene said well He cannot haue God to be his Father who hath not the church to be his mother For God hauing purposed to make vs his children and heires of life eternall as he prepared his word to be first the séede the immortall seed of which we are begotten a new afterward the milke the sincere milke whereby wee béeing borne grow so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it as it were a mother first to conceaue and bring foorth the children afterward to nourish them as babes new borne with her milke Which appeareth as by others so chiefly by S. Paul who traueiled of them in childbirth whom he sought to conuert and when they were new borne he nourished them with milke to set before our eyes the duetie of the church and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vnto Christ. Now the milke which the church giueth to her children shée giueth it out of her brestes and her two brestes are the two testaments of the holie scriptures by S. Austins iudgement the old Testament and the new S. Austin therefore saying the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church meant not that the church should deliuer any thing but onely what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures Hart. Not for milke perhaps which babes are to sucke but for strong meate wherewith men are nourished For mothers féede not their children being growne with mylke out of theyr brestes Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures haue both milke for babes and strong meat for men milke in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood strong meate in harder and greater mysteries Yea where Christ said that euerye Scribe which is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vnto an housholder who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde S. Austin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde the olde and newe testament Wherefore sith euery pastor and teacher of the church is meant you graunt by this Scribe it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the
you blaspheme in it Hart. Blaspheme why say you so Rainoldes Because you deny Christ the Sonne of God to be the one Pastor and so the head of his Church For he to whom an other succeedeth in an office doth cease him selfe to beare the office as Felix did cease to bee gouernour of Iurie when Festus was in place to be his successour Wherefore if the office of that one Pastor continue by succession then doth it wholy rest in the successor that is the Pope and Christ the predecessor is discharged of it Hart. You speake as though we named the Pope Christes successor which we are farre from For we know that Priestes after the order of Aaron had therefore successors because they were not suffered to endure by reason of death But Christ endureth euer as being a Priest after the order of Melchisedech and so hath no successors We name S. Peter Christes vicar the Pope Christes vicar and successor of Peter but neither Peter nor the Pope successor of Christ. Rainoldes If it be as you say then raze out for shame that prophane spéech out of your sacred Ceremonies of the Church of Rome Christ did first name and ordaine Peter his successor saying to him Feede my sheepe and in the same sort did Peter also name Clemens But sith you acknowledge that Christ is one Pastor and yet hath no successor you haue giuen ouer the fortresse of that which you meant to seaze on by those wordes of Christ that there should be one flocke one Pastor For where as you saide that this soueraine Pastor must doth continue one by succession in Peter and the Pope you confesse now that without succession he doth continue one in person euen Christ the Pastor of our soules the great the chiefe Pastor who walketh in the middest of the seuen golden candlestickes that is of the seuen and by consequent of all Churches Hart. I confesse that Christ continueth the Pastor of our soules the chiefe Pastor and hath no successor as succession is taken properly But he made a vicar that is a chiefe Pastor vnder him in earthe to continue by succession Whom also hée meant by the name of one Pastor and not himselfe alone Rainoldes The verie wordes of scripture and circumstances of the text doo proue the contrarie For to whom did Christ speake when he saide I haue other sheepe which are not of this folde and them must I bring and they shall heare my voyce and there shal be one flocke one Pastor was it not to the Iewes Hart. To the Iewes Rainoldes Then by other sheepe not of that folde hée meant the Gentiles Hart. The Gentiles Rainoldes And it was Christes office to bring them also to his folde Hart. It was so Roinoldes To bring them by his voyce which they should heare Hart. What then Rainoldes Is not he the Pastor whose voyce the sheepe heare Hart. Who denyeth it Rainoldes Then if the Iewes and Gentiles heare the voice of Christ and so become one flocke how could he meane any but himselfe alone by the one Pastor Hart. Him selfe alone I graunt directly and first but secondarily and by consequent his vicar too Peter and Peters successor For Christ while he liued in flesh vpon the earth did not bring the Gentiles he was not sent he saide but to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel In the which respect S. Paul calleth him the minister of circumcision because he did execute his office and ministery onely towardes the people of circumcision that is the Iewes The Gentiles he did bring after his ascension by the ministerie of his seruants chiefly of S. Peter whom hauing instructed by a vision from heauen hée sent him to Cornelius chose him that the Gentiles should heare by his mouth the worde of the Gospell and beleeue Wherefore as Christ saide that he must bring the Gentiles though he meant to bring them not by his owne preaching but by the mouth of Peter and so Peter brought them after a sorte too likewise he gaue him selfe the name of one Pastor though he fedde his flocke not in his owne person but in his vicar and so might hée meane his vicar too thereby Rainoldes This is a greater argument that he meant not Peter nor Peters successor as you terme him by the name of one Pastor For if he meant him selfe not as hee liued in the flesh but as he raigneth in glorie then meant he that prerogatiue which is onely his as head of the Church and may be no way giuen vnto flesh and blood For the proofe whereof we are to weigh farther that in saying I must bring them they shall heare my voyce he meaneth effectuall bringing and hearing through which they who are his sheepe do folow him and he doth giue them eternall life and they shall neuer perish and none shall plucke them out of his hand Now whom Christ bringeth after this maner he bringeth them by two meanes by the preaching of his worde and the working of his Spirite As he worketh by his Spirite so he hath no vicar him selfe doth open the heart of Lydia and baptize with the holy Ghost and is with his disciples still vntil the end of the worlde As he calleth by his worde so are all ministers of the worde his vicars For hee sendeth them in his steede and preacheth vnto men by them So he saith to the twelue Apostles He that receiueth you receiueth me and to the seuentie disciples He that heareth you heareth me So Paule saith of him selfe Timothee Siluanus and the rest that laboured with him We are embassadours for Christ God as it were beseeching you through vs we pray you in Christes steed be ye reconciled to God First therefore sith the Spirite doth make the word effectuall and Christ hath no vicar as he worketh by his Spirite it foloweth that in naming him selfe the one Pastor who doth bring his sheep and they heare his voice he could imply no vicar For the word doth sound in vaine to the eare vnlesse the Lord doo open the heart with his Spirite and neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the encrease Againe if he had implied their ministerie by whom the shéepe heare his voice and so are brought yet must that belong to many vicars not to one or if to one not to Peter For they who should be brought thereby are the Gentiles and Christ hath brought the Gentiles by many Pastors and teachers not only by the Apostles nor amongst the Apostles by Peter chiefely but by Paule and that through the calling of the holy Ghost and their agréement betwéene them selues Finally if Christ had meant as you distinguish it him selfe first and directly secondarily by cōsequent Peter it must be for his preaching the word to the
there is any faute in the diall I meane in the Church for that can not be as Pighius proueth pretily but because perhaps either Christ him selfe hath tooke an other course and is altered I know not by what changeablenes of God or els the whole scripture is slipt from the point in the which it stood But let vs right woorshipfull who know that the dials and clockes doo mysse often but the course of the sunne is certaine and constant let vs make more account of the sunne then of a diall of heauen then of Plinie of the Zodiake circle then of the field of Flora of God then of men of Christ then of Pighius of the holy scripture then of the church For God forbid there should be any amongst vs so beastly a monster in the shape of man as to set vp Antichrist in the temple of God aboue God and to attribute more to any either man or multitude of men then to the Lord of maiestie But so doo they no dout who haue the Church in greater regard then the scripture For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God the voice of the Church is the voice of men Then if it be impious to set vp men aboue God doubtlesse to set vp the Church aboue the scripture it is Antichristian Nor yet doo I deny that the Churches voice is sometimes the voice of God For in appeasing the offenses and reprouing the sinnes of brethren if thy brother saith Christ refuse to heare the church let him be to thee as a heathen man and a Publican But the holy spirit that is the spirit of truth doth speake both alone and alwaies in the scripture An humaine spirit that is a spirit of errour hath a part sometimes in the spéech of the Church Both which pointes I haue proued by the word of God the euidence of the thing and the confessions of our aduersaries Why doo we not then acknowledge that the royall prerogatiue of this priuilege to bee altogither exempt from all errour is due to scripture onely and confesse as Austin doth against the Donatistes that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonicall scripture that all things which are writen therein be true and right but the letters and writings of Bishops as of Cyprian yea the very Councels not prouinciall onely but also full and generall haue often times somewhat that may be amended I for my part doo gladly both allow this sentence of Austin and iudge it woorthy to be allowed as agréeable to the trueth And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the church Thus you haue my iudgement right learned Inceptors touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of opened in more wordes perhaps then your wisedome in fewer then the weight of the things required But I haue waded so farre in the opening of them as I thought the Proctors might wel giue me leaue by the straitnes of time As for that which néedeth to be discussed farther I will assay to open it as well as I can if occasion serue when the aduersarie arguments shall bée proposed in disputation CONCLVSIONS HANDLED IN DIVINITIE SCHOOLE THE III. OF NOVEMBER 1579. 1 The holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen HE who the sea the earth the skyes made by his worde of nought Who by eternall power doth guide and rule all things he wrought Did choose from out the sonnes of men before the world was pight Such as with blessed angels aye should ioy his blisfull sight The Iewes are not the onely men that make this holy band But they are souldiers chosen out of euery toung and land Where on the south the mightie prince of Abissines doth raigne Where on the north the coasts do lye that looke to Charles waine Where Phaebus with his glistring beames doth raise the dawning light And sinking in the westerne seas doth bring the darksome night The fleâ—h can not by natures light such hidden truthes pursue But Christian faith by light of grace this Catholike Church doth vew 2 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the catholike Church THey do not well who shut the world within the Roman boundes Christs Church is spred through al the earth without restraint of mounds Rome was I grant a faithfull branch of this renowned vine Rome was a myrrour that in grace in zeale in loue did shine Rome was commended farre and wide for faith in Christ his name For Peters doctrine taught and kept Rome was of worthy fame But where Rome was now ruines are The Capitoll is sâ—ooried The grouÌ„d is bathde in Christians blood whoÌ„ Romish woolues haue wooried Her Churches are with idoles stained her guides with maners vile Whom lustfull traines and wicked hearts and beds vnchast defile O thrise vnhappie Babylon that Sions spoyle doost woorke Under the noble name and hue of Sion wouldest thou lurke 3 The reformed churches in England Scotland France Germany and other kingdomes common wealthes haue seuered them selues lawfully from the church of Rome A Place of haunt for deuils and sprits is Babylon waxt saith Iohn Art thou desirous to be saued from Babylon be gon The names and trickes of Babylon Rome on it selfe doth take Then if ye séeke eternall life sée that ye Rome forsake This haue the noble Germanes done bidding the Pope a dieu England hath followed Germany Romes thraldome to eschew Beholde the Lord hath called on the Flemish French and Dane And Scotland hath escaped eke the Papall deadly bane O that the remnant of the world by faith to Christ were knit And Princes to the Prince of all their scepters would submit Build vp O Lord O father deare the church and Sions for t That vnto thée from Babylon thy people may resort AMongst many singular benefits of God bestowed vpon our Vniuersitie fathers and brethren which may be very fruitfull to the aduancing of Gods glory and saluation of the Church if they be well husbanded there is scarse any more excellent in my iudgement then that it is ordered that the truth giuen by inspiration of God and registred in the Scripture should be not expounded onely by publike lectures but also proued by disputations A woorthy and profitable ordinance no doubt and most méete for schooles which serue to traine vp Christians that is for schooles of God For what can there be more pretious then the truth which teacheth vs the knowledge of God the way to life And what more conuenient to strengthen the truth then to haue it proued by discussing the reasons brought of both partes For as golde being digged out of the veines of the earth is seuered from earthy substance mixt therewith by the mettall-workemen knocking it together and as husbandmen are wont to sift wheat from the chaffe by winowing that it may be fit to nourish the body
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
which thēselues haue called for And the chiefest of thē hath wisht that some of theirs might meete in scholasticall combat with any of vs before indifferent iudges trusting that their doctrine which we condemne of fansie and humane tradition should then be inuincibly proued to be most agreeable to Gods word Wherfore sith this combat hath bene vndertaken and that in such sort as lerned men haue thought to be most fit for triall of the truth not by extemporall speaking but writing with aduise the question agreed of the arguments the answeres the replies set downe and sifted of both sides till ech had fully sayd in fine the whole published that Churches and the faithfull all may iudge of it your guides cannot honestly denie you the sight of their inuincible proofes therein The autours of the worke are M. Hart and I. Of whom they haue giuē out in print to the worlde sithence we began it that I though the lernedst as the reporter saith of that sort and order yet did shew my selfe so much the more vnlerned how much the more earnestly I was dealt with but M. Hart a noble champion of Christ and a holy Priest a Bacheler of Diuinitie had taken deeper roote in the foundations of the faith and was of sounder lerning then that the reasons which I no common Minister of the English synagogue brought to ouerthrow him could remoue him from it So that I was faine to go whence I came and leaue him as I found him Now if they themselues thinke this to be true which they haue geuen out they may boldely suffer you to reade our Conference that you may see the triumphe which a noble champiō of yours a holy Priest a Bacheler of Diuinitie hath had of a Minister of the English synagogue an vnlerned Minister and yet the lernedst of that sort But if they will not giue you leaue to reade it then may you suspect that these glorious speeches of their own scholers and base wordes of vs are but sleights of policie as many vauntes lyes be in the same pamphlets wherein these are writen Nay you may suspect that there is somewhat which they are afrayde least you should espie and therefore debarre you frō the meanes of knowing it In deed my deere brethren you are circumuented by them who commend the loue and liberalitie and pietie of the Pope in erecting Seminaries to traine vp English youth vnder the Iesuites and other famous men For the loue pretended towards you therein is to haue you his seruants The liberalitie emploied in feeding and teaching you is to make you pliable and fit therevnto The Iesuites and others set to train you vp are set to noosell you in heresie and treason the pillers of his faith and State The King of Babylon Nabuchodonosor did commaund Asphenaz the Master of his Eunuches that of the Israelites he should bring children who were without blemish well fauoured wise and skilfull and had abilitie in them that he should teach them the artes and tongue of the Chaldeans And the King appointed them prouision euerie day of a portion of his meate and of the wine which he dranke that they being brought vp so for three yeares might at the end thereof stand before the King Pope Gregorie the thirteenth loueth you brethren as King Nabuchodonosor did the Israelites He hath founde the meanes that there should bee brought to the Masters of his Eunuches Iesuites others a number of the best wittes out of England that they may teach you the artes and toung of the Romans And he hath appointed prouision for you of moonthly exhibition in bountifull sort but to what ende that after certain yeres of this education you may stand before the Pope Daniel perceaued that the Kings loue liberalitie was not single but sought his own profit which his felowes also Ananias Misael and Azarias saw If you haue the spirite of Daniel and his felowes you wil see as much in the Popes double loue and liberalitie Sure hee geueth iuster cause to distrust it then the King did For the Kings drift in trayning vp them that they might stand before him was only that they should attend and waite vpon him as courtiers in his palace Or if because he chose them of the blood royall and seede of the nobilitie he had a farder drift it was but the assurance of their land of Iuda But you are trained vp by the Pope to serue him in prouinces abroade not in his palace at home to subdue for him that which hee hath lost not to assure him of that hee hath subdued nor to make him soueraine of one land but of two and them not small of territorie and state as Iuda was but greater and mightier England Ireland For which a poorer fisher then the Pope is would be content to angle with a hooke of golde although it cost him more then your two Seminaries are lykely to doo Pope Leo the tenth did spend a hundred thousand ducats in one day vpon the pompe and brauerie of his coronation and eight hundred thousand more in one warre against the Duke of Vrbin to spoile him of his State thereby to establish a nephew of his owne in it In his dayes Luther rose the Protestants had not touched the triple crowne yet His successours haue felt what danger it is in If some of their offals be spent with greater shew of almes on scholers now chiefly on such scholers as may defēd their crowne the Papacie you know is discreetely menaged this menaging doth proue not lesse ambition but more discretion The policie of Gregorie the thirteenth appeereth therin not the pietie His cost vpon captains souldiours and ships sent into Ireland discloseth the fountaine of his liberalitie and loue to our nation Whereof that is also a cleerer proofe plainer token that the Masters of his Eunuches are set to teach you the artes and toung of the Romans as Asphenaz the Master of the Kinges Eunuches was to teache the Israelites the artes and toung of the Chaldeans I meane not the Italian toung though where they will you to lerne that withal it is a special point of the kings policie but I meane the Romish tongue so to call it and language of Poperie The knowledge of the artes yee are not all taught but yee are all taught the knowledge of this toung be ye Philosophers or Diuines Philosophers in sermons in catechismes in confessions Diuines in the lectures of cases of controuersies of positiue Diuinitie and they who can of Hebrue and Schoole-diuinitie too The woman was deceued through desire of knowledge which the serpent promised her Great thinges are promised you by Seminarie-proctors of perfitter knowledge to be obtained there then with vs in England And truely for the artes and toung of the Chaldeans I
Peters patrimonie Their vsurpations tyrannicall S. Peters royalties Their good will His fauour Their communion His peace Their indignation His curse Their signet His ring Their closet His See Their Citie His borough Their poll mony euen Peter pence too Yea it may be that shortly they will take vp Peter for a surname as the Romane Emperours did the name of Caesar. For a famous Lawier Patrone of the Papacy saith that the Popes may al be called Peters And our countriman who was sent to display the Popes banner chalenge highest honour for him doth name him the Bishop of the first See that is to say Peter And Cardinal Hosius one of the Popes lieutenants in his Councell of Trent doth write that there is onely one vniuersall patriarke Who Peter of Rome and that Peter of Rome did send his messengers vnto English French Dutch and other nations to call them to the Councell of Trent Not Peter of Bethsaida but Peter of Rome did it Hart. These thinges are small the most of them and vsed to encrease a reuerend estimation and opinion of that Sée to the which our Sauior committed the principalitie and gouernment of his church As for the pointes that séeme greater in the words of Leo they may be defended For where he saieth that Christ tooke Peter into the fellowship of the indiuisible vnitie hée might meane vnitie in will not in substance as Christ doth pray for his disciples Holy father keepe them in thy name that they may be one as we are Where he doth honour Peter with the title of my Lord it is a common title and giuen men of state both spirituall and temporall yea Mary Magdalen called him Lord the word in Latin is the same whom shée supposed to be a gardiner The like might be said for the defense of the rest with as great probabilitie and perhaps greater then you haue to mislike them Rainoldes The smaller thinges which you call are some of them small I graunt but like small holes in ships at the which a great deale of water wil come in inough to drowne the shippe if they be left open as long as these haue beene in the shippe of the church They had encreased such an opinion of the Pope of Rome Saint Peters See as they tearmed it that although hee practised not a principalitie geuē him by Christ but an outragious tiranny vsurped by him selfe ouer Kings and Nations yet neither kings nor Nations almost durst speake against him at the least resiste him For if they did offend the Pope they thought they did offende S. Peter Now of S. Peter they were taught that he is porter of heauen gates They feared the porter would let none in sauing the Pope his vicars frends So to get eternal life they serued and pleased and féeed the Pope least that if he shoulde frowne vpon them Saint Peters fauour should be lost UUherfore how small soeuer those things of Peter séeme in trifling kindes of common spéeches they brought no small aduantage to Peter of Romes Court and wealth into his Treasurie It is recorded of King Oswy in our English Story that when vpon a controuersy about the celebrating of Easter there was a Synode assembled and the one part alleadged that they followed the East Churches which had receiued their rite of Iohn the Euangelist the Disciple whom Christ loued the other part replyed that they followed the Church of Rome which had receiued theirs of Peter to whom Christ gaue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the King tooke vp the matter and iudged with the Church of Rome For I tell you quoth he that Peter is the porter whom I wil not gainesay nay I wil obey his orders in all respectes as farre as I skill and can leaste when I come to the doores of the kingdome of heauen there be none to open if hee be displeased who doth keepe the keyes This grosse imagination of the keyes and porter and corrupt opinion of power to shut and open committed vnto Peter only which the good king conceyued of simplicitie his Cleargie should haue taught him better but they did all agrée vnto it and their successors praise King Oswy the Captaines of the Church of Rome perceyuing it to be commodious for the aduauncement of their kingdome and conquering of all the earth haue nourished very cunningly by their lessons their titles their armes their ensignes their pictures and other legions of policies all in S. Peters name And on the credite of S. Peter they haue pronounced that all ordinances of their See must be receiued euen as if Peter had confirmed them They haue taughte that their Church persisteth pure from all error by the grace and helpe of Peter They haue decreed that although it lay a yoake almost intolerable on vs yet we must beare it patiently in the remembrance of S. Peter They haue set abroach in the donation of Constantine that he gaue them his owne crowne of golde most pure and pretious stones to weare in honor of S. Peter and that hee held the bridle and stirrope of the Popes horse in reuerence of S. Peter They haue made the Emperour as the Popes vasall to become S. Peters knight and take his oath vnto S. Peter that hee will restore S. Peters lande vnto the Pope if he get any of it and wil helpe the Pope to defende S. Peters land They haue brought Archbishops to thinke their power is nothing vnlesse the Pope do send them from S. Peters body a pall which hath the fulnesse of the pontifical duetie Bishops they haue bound to promise by their oath allegiance and fealtie to Saint Peter the Romane Church and their Lord the Pope Yea from Bishops they haue brought the oath vnto them who receyue dignities And that which passeth all the rest whereas the forme of the oath in the Canon Law doth bynde them to defend regulas sanctorum patrum the rules of the holy fathers the Pope hath heretofore and now doth put in stéed thereof regalia sancti Petri the roialties of S. Peter Such praies your Eagles take though you do count them flyes But let them be flyes or fowles I wil not striue Onelie this I say let the wise consider it and marke the degrées of encrease in the Papacie and they shal perceiue in this what shall I call it of Saint Peters name that although it were not any of the greatest it was one of the finest trickes of spiritual coosinage that hath enriched the Pope and set the Church of Rome so hie Now to come from these lesser vnto the greater pointes in Leo I know if a man list to be contentious it is an easie matter to say somewhat probably for the defense of his words Yea though hee had named
mysticall spéeches wherein the scriptures giue the name of the thing to that which it betokneth as of the passeouer to the lambe and of the rocke to Christ. For I hope you wil not conclude of this shew that really Christ was a rocke or a lambe the passeouer really Hart. These spéeches are not like to that of Christes bodie in the Sacrament of the Eucharist For it is manifest that when the lambe was called the passeouer and Christ the rocke it was meant not really but figuratiuely that the rocke signified Christ the lambe the passeouer But it is not manifest in that of Christes bodie Rainoldes Whither it be manifest or no is not the question but whither the spéeches be like in shew of wordes the rocke was Christ this is my bodie Or to come néerer to your owne example and proofe of that point Christ saith of himselfe that he is true bread and my flesh is meate indeede and my blood is drinke indeede True and indeede these termes are more pregnant for a reall presence then that of Christes bodie Yet if you say that Christ is bread really and his flesh meate and his blood drinke you may as well say that he is really a vine and his disciples branches really and other such reall either blasphemies or follies Hart. Nay we doo confesse that many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely but neither all nor this concerning the Sacrament nor any thing els whereof the literall and proper sense hath not somewhat contrarie to God to religion and to Christian life As D. Allen saith that S. Austin teacheth Out of whom he citeth withall a woorthie sentence touching such as you are If the minde be preuented with an opinion of some errour whatsoeuer the scripture dooth affirme otherwise men thinke it to be spoken figuratiuely Rainoldes That sentence is good as S. Austin vttereth it But D. Allen vseth it ill against vs. The woorse because S. Austin sheweth straight vpon it in the same booke of the same point that to eate the flesh of Christ and drinke his blood was spoken not properly for so it were a wicked deede but figuratiuely flat against that error of the reall presence which hée is pretended to proue by D. Allen. But howsoeuer D. Allen deale in that the point which you graunt with him sufficeth me for proofe of that I saide For if many things in scripture are spoken and meant figuratiuely it followeth that the sense of scripture is against the shew of wordes in sundrie places and therfore that the shew of words sundrie times is against the truth Which sith you cannot sée in this Sacrament because of your preiudice of the reall presence I will bring an example of the sacrament of baptisme wherein you must needes sée it There were some of old who as we sprinckle children with water in baptizing of them so they vsed to print and stampe certaine marks vpon them with fire For the which vsage they alleaged the scripture I meane the wordes thereof that touching Iohn Baptist who saying of himselfe I baptize you with water addeth of our Sauiour He will baptize you with the holie Ghost and fire Now I put the matter to your owne iudgement whether they did better who baptized with fire or we who without it Hart. Who doubteth but we For they were deceiued who tooke the name of fire properly in that place where it is vsed figuratiuely to signifie the graces of the holie Ghost who lighteneth and purgeth the hartes of the faithfull They who did baptize in that sort were heretikes as Alphonsus sheweth Rainoldes Yet the shew of words dooth make more for thē Iohn baptized with water Christ baptizeth with fire Neither haue you here so much as that euasion which yet if you had were nothing to the purpose that it is manifest to be meant not properly but figuratiuely For there haue béene sundry churches and nations these many hundred yeares that vsed it and doo still induced all thereto by the shew of wordes as manifest to be meant not figuratiuely but properly in their iudgement And your reall presence hath not gone so far in the one Sacrament with this is my bodie as their firie markes haue gone in the other with the holie Ghost and fire Wherefore to returne to the point in questiō although it may séeme by the shew of words that our Sauiour promised the keyes of the kingdome of heauen to Peter onely yet sith he meant them to all the Apostles as I haue declared your claime will be a bare shew if all your proofe be shew of wordes And therefore as I said so I say againe that you must bring vs foorth some better euidence or els your title will be naught Hart. And I tell you againe that the euidence is good and hath not onely shew of words but sense too if it be rightly taken But we retaine not you to be our lawier to expound it Rainoldes I am not in hast to be retained of you But what mislike you in my expounding of it Hart. That which shall kéepe me from yelding thereunto For your exposition is a priuate exposition which we allow not of We allow onely of the churches exposition Rainoldes Then I perceiue the church shall be your lawier And what is I pray you the churches exposition Hart. That which all the Fathers make with one consent Rainoldes Which all the Fathers make We had néede to haue bodies like the bodies of Oakes and memories as strong as stéele to endure to reade and be sure to remember of euery exposition so much as may ascertaine vs that all the Fathers make it Hath any man liuing read them all Nay haue all the men liuing read them Nay can they shewe them Can they get them I had almost said can they name them Hart. Womeane of the Fathers which are extant commonly and may be had and read If many of them make it and the rest either gainsay it not or say nought of it we count it to bée made of all with one consent Rainoldes That count is euill cast For as in the writings of Fathers which we haue some one expoundeth places of Scripture oftentimes otherwise then all the rest a thing notorious and confessed so it is likely that in those which we haue not some places were otherwise expounded thē they be in those which we haue Yet I will not deny but you had reason so to count For else your lawier had béene dumbe and could not haue spoken a word for his client But if this be your rule of the churches exposition then I could haue made mine exposition the churches with a wet finger if I would haue stuffed it with the names of Fathers For my words of Peter that he alone made answere for all the Apostles receiued the keyes togither with them all are the wordes of S. Austin though I did
stubble so will the point of truth rippe vp the bowels of their errours So the Arians when they brought broken sentences of scripture in shew resembling somewhat their blasphemous doctrine against the sonne of God but indeede vnlike it they were ouerthrowne through the conference of scriptures by the Nicen councell and godly pastors of the church So the Pelagians the enimies of grace vnder the name of nature when they trifled vainely to shift the scriptures off which make against the frée-will of man for Gods fauour they were put to flight with plainer places of the scriptures by the Councels of Carthage of Mileuis of Orenge and chiefely by S. Austin So hath God conâ—ounded others of that rable will no doubt their complices if with the sword of the spirite which is the word of God wee ioine the shield of faith to quench the fyry dartes of Satan The Familie of loue shall feele it in time the Father of the Familie feared it and therefore he warned his children to beware of them who beare this weapon and haue skill to handle it of scripture-learned men And you who lay the Families synne to our charge as though we did foster that venemous vipers brood do ioine your selues to them and march into the field with them and strengthen their handes against vs. Of you they haue learned to take vp the name of Scripturemen by way of scoffe and vse it as a contumelie You teach them that the diligent yea the most diligent coÌ„ference of scriptures is the path of heretikes to most damnable errours You perswade them that the fountaines of the Greeke and Hebrue text are neither pure nor greatly néedfull You tell them that to expound the scripture by scripture is good and it is fruitfull to confer places to obserue the wordes and circumstances of the text but there are manye daungers and difficulties in it the text is not alwaies knitte and coherent to it selfe the very order of speaking is oftentimes abrupt sometimes preposterous altogither there are sundry hyperbata and anantapodota in S. Paule one word yea in one sentence hath sundry significations places may seeme like one to an other that are vnlike and contrariwise and many mo such inconueniences enough to breake the hart of a weak Christian. In the which dealing you do band your selues with the ten spies who when they should haue encouraged the people of Israell to enter into the land of promise they tolde them that the land certainly is good and floweth with milke and hony but the people dwelling in it is strong and the cities walled exceeding great and the sonnes of Anak Giants be there The Amalekites dwel in the south couÌ„trie the Hitthites and Iebusites and Amorites dwell in the mountaines the Cananites dwell by the sea and by the coast of Iorden The Lord sware in his wrath both to these spies and to the people who beléeued them that they should not enter into his rest At you and your men I maruaile M. Hart that whose fact you folow you tremble not at their end As for vs although we were but two against your ten and all the people would rather beleeue you then vs yet we will follow them who were of an other spirite Caleb and Iosua and with them will wee say to the whole assembly of the children of God The land through the which we haue gone to search it is an excellent good land If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs into this land and giue it vs euen a land that floweth with milke and honie Onely rebell yee not against the Lorde neither feare yee the people of the land for they are bread for vs. In deede the holy scripture is bread for our soules and the word of God is the foode of life If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs vnto it and giue it vs. Let vs not rebell against him nor feare the hardnes of it We must search the scriptures and pray to him for wisedome and hee will open them to vs for he hath promised and make vs learned in them Hart. We acknowledge with you that the meanes you mention namely to search the scriptures and to pray to God for wisedome and knowledge are good and godlie meanes whereby we may the sooner come to vnderstand them or rather be prepared thereto But such as neuerthelesse are not still effectuall Rainoldes They are still effectuall if men pray as they should and search them as they ought in the spirit of fayth and modestie Hart. True in that measure which is fit for euerie mans vocation and duetie some to exhort and comfort priuately some publikely to teach the church But after you haue saide all that you can we shall neuer grow to any ende and issue if we folow this way For if you alleage the scripture against me and I against you if I expound it by conference of this place and you of that if in your opinion one sentence be plaine and in mine an other in mine our meaning right and in yours the contrarie what ende can our controuersies haue without a iudge And if you yéeld to a iudge who fitter for it then the Pope Rainoldes Who but Christ our Sauiour And they which vnder him haue it committed to them euen the Church of Christ Hart. The Church Nay you mentioned the godlie before and spake as if they should trie the truth from errour by conference of the scriptures Which is your right kinde of triall and iudgement But you are ashamed of it now belike as in truth you may be For you shall finde many taylers and coblers more godly then sundrie more learned then they Yet I trust you will not repaire for shreddes and cloutes to any shop of theirs Rainoldes Yet the shreddes and cloutes of taylors and coblers may haue greater knowledge perhaps and better iudgement of the sense of scriptures then the scarlet gownes of learneder men then they For the learned Pharisees who condemned the people as ignorant of the law did not iudge the doctrine of Christ to be true nay they reiected it as false with search and see But the men of Beroea some of whom by likelihood were taylers or coblers or at least common artificers as meane as they receiued it with all readinesse vpon the search of the scriptures beleeued it Howbeit when I mentioned that iudgement of the godlie I meant the godlie learned Wherefore you néeded not to speake of shreddes and cloutes but that you were loth perhaps to léese this iest Chiefly sith I shewed thereupon withall that for the triall of controuersies by scripture the toongs in which the scripture is written must be knowne namely Gréeke and Hebrue The which shreddes and cloutes neither many taylers and coblers with vs neither many Cardinalles and Popes with you
authoritie to Peter in some sort Yet this is a notable difference betweene them and well worth the marking that S. Paule was the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles but Peter the Apostle both of Gentiles and of Iewes Which because we loue not to speake without Doctors you may read in S. Ambrose in his CoÌ„mentaries on this place He that wrought by Peter in the Apostleship of circumcision wrought by me also towardes the Gentiles He nameth Peter alone saith he and compareth him vnto himselfe because he had receiued the primacie to build the Church that himselfe likewise is chosen to haue the primacie of building the Churches of the Gentiles Yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also These are S. Ambrose his wordes Rainoldes Haue you read these words your selfe in S. Ambrose or do you take them vp on credit Hart. What if my selfe haue read them Rainoldes Then shall I thinke worse of you then I haue done For I haue thought you to erre of simplicitie But I smell somewhat else here Hart. In déede I reade them not my selfe in S. Ambrose but in D. Stapleton who citeth them as I do Rainoldes Then you may learne the precept of a wittie Poet Be sober and distrustfull these are the ioyntes of wisedome For this which you haue taken of D. Stapletons credit is clipped fowly clipped If he should deale so with the Princes coine I know what iudgement he should haue The wordes of Ambrose are Ita tamen vt Petrus gentibus praedicaret si causa fuisset Paulus Iudaeis yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also if it were needfull and Paule to the Iewes D. Stapleton citeth them Ita tamen vt Peâ—rus gentibus praedicaret Haec ille Yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also Thus saith Ambrose See you not how hansomely he hath clipped-of the last words of Ambrose Paulus Iudaeis and Paule to the Iewes to proue that Paule might not preach vnto the Iewes as Peter might vnto the Gentiles Yet this is D. Stapleton whose Treatise of the Church some of our English Studentes and young seduced gentlemen thinke to be a treasure of great truth and wisedome But God wil make the falsehood and folly thereof euident to all men at his good time For this present point that Paule was an Apostle and teacher of the Iewes and the Gentiles both as well as Peter was and therfore not inferior to him in this respect the Scripture is so cléere that no mist of Stapletons though it were as thicke as the darkenes of Egipt can take away the light of it The wordes of Christ proue it spoken touching Paule vnto Ananias He is a chosen vessell to me to beare my name before the Gentiles and kinges and the children of Israel The commission by Ananias sent vnto Paule The God of our Fathers hath appointed thee that thou shouldest know his will and see that Iust one and heare the voice of his mouth For thou shalt bee his witnesse vnto all men of the thinges which thou hast seene and heard Paules obedience to his calling and performance of his duetie He preached Christ in the Synagogues he confounded the Iewes he spake and disputed with the Graecians Iewes by religion although not by parentage to be short when he was sent by speciall commission of the holy Ghost for the worke whereunto God had called him and Barnabas they preached the worde of God in the Synagogues of the Iewes through diuers cities and countries vntill that when the Iewes did stubbernely resist the truth which they preached they said boldly to them It was necessarie that the word of God should haue bene first spoken vnto you but seeing you put it from you and iudge your selues vnworthie of euerlasting life lo we turne to the Gentiles Wherefore as Peter preached the Gospell both to Iewes and Gentiles so did also Paule As God did choose Peter that the Gentiles by his mouth should heare the word of the Gospell so did he choose Paule Hart. Why dooth Paule then call himselfe the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles and that in sundry places Rainoldes Because that when he and Peter perceiued that God did blesse the labours of the one of them amongst the Iewes chiefly of the other amongst the Gentiles they agreed togither and gaue the right handes of fellowship each to other that Paule should preach vnto the Gentiles Peter to the Iewes not so but that either if occasion serued might and did preach to either as Ambrose noted well and it is written of Paul namely but that they should specially teach the one the Iewes the other the Gentiles as their epistles shew they did Thus if you regard that which they did chiefly Peter was an Apostle and teacher of the Iewes Paule of the Gentiles If that which they might doo and did by occasion they were the Apostles and teachers both of both and so no difference betwéene them Hart. We graunt that there was no difference betwéene them in the office of the Apostleship for therein was Paule equall vnto Peter Rainoldes He that granteth this would sée if he had eyes that he must grant the other which he hath denied For if equall in the office of the Apostleship then equall in the charge of preaching to all nations And if in the charge of preaching to all nations then both to Iewes and Gentiles Hart. It is true to both But so that S. Peter was chiefe Apostle to them both and the supreme head to rule as well S. Paule as the rest of the Apostles Rainoldes I haue proued that Peter had no such headship ouer them You barely say the contrary and repeat it still This is a fault in reasoning condemned of the Logicians by the name of begging that which is in controuersie I pray vse it not but either proue that you say or hold your peace and cease to say it Hart. I will proue it by the circumstances of the words of Christ saying vnto Peter Doost thou loue me more then these Feede my lambes Doost thou loue me Feede my sheepe Doost thou loue me Feede my sheepe Wherein sundry principall pointes are to be noted First he requireth of him an open profession and testimonie of his loue to this intent that he may put him in trust with his flocke Secondly he requireth not onely that he loue him but also that he loue him more then the rest that to him as louing him more then the rest he may giue power aboue the rest Thirdly he asketh him thrise if he loue him and the former times with the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the last with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which noteth feruent loue With the which worde also Peter had answered him still Fourthly he saith vnto him thrise also feede And to passe ouer the sheepe and the lambes whereof
that in place of greatest force as when he saith This is my commandement that ye loue one an other as I haue loued you greater loue then this hath no man when a man bestoweth his life for his friendes Whereas S. Iohn therefore vttered Christes demand by the one worde and Peters answere by the other it séemeth that he vsed the wordes indifferently as hauing both the same meaning Which is proued also by the consent and iudgement of the Syriake translation that hath the same worde for them both Howbeit if the wordes haue a difference of sense it agreeth better with the modestie of Peter to haue saide lesse then more of his loue chiefly sith hee had fallen by saying too much of it and had by triall felt his frailtie But if he did answere as you imagine him Dost thou loue me Peter Lord I loue thee feruently yet this feruent loue inferreth no supremacy ouer the rest of the Apostles For what he reporteth of his owne loue the same doth Christ witnesse of theirs or rather more if we would pricke it vp as you doo euen that his Father loueth them because that they loued him In both the which branches that same worde is vsed which by your fansie doth signifie feruent loue when it may serue the Popes vantage Hart. We doo not relye so much on that word as on the other two 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but chiefly on the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For although to feed which is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth import much yet to feede and rule which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth hath a greater force as those places shew where that worde is vsed Thou shalt rule them with a rodde of yron and he shall rule my people Israel Wherefore Christ committed a soueraine power to Peter in that he said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not onely to feede but to rule and gouerne too Rainoldes Then it was not Peters duetie to rule the lambes but the shéepe onely For Christ doth say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of the shéepe and of the lambes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hart. So I said Yet that word which he vseth of the lambes he vseth of the shéepe also Whereby this is shewed as I touched briefly out of o D. Stapleton that lambes must be onely meated and fedde of Peter through the common foode of doctrine to be looked for from him as supreme father of the houshold and from his Sée and they must be ruled of their next and proper Pastors whom immediatly they are vnder but sheepe that is to say the greater and perfiter Bishops themselues and Pastors are committed to him not onely to be fedde with the common doctrine but also to be ruled of him more immediatly as of the supreme Pastor of Pastors Rainoldes So your Doctor noteth I grant and you touched it But you were best recall it or els this fine fansie of that Gréeke word as it is farre fetched so will be deare bought For it must cost the Pope halfe of his supremacy Hart. Why doo you say so Rainoldes Why Are not Princes comprised in the name of lambes by your iudgement as Bishops and Pastors in the name of sheepe Hart. They are and what then Rainoldes The Pope then hath nothing to doo with the ruling and gouerning of Princes much lesse with deposing them For Peter had commission you say to feede onely and not to rule the lambes Hart. But they must be ruled of their next Pastors and so by consequent of the Pope because their Pastors must be ruled of him as Pastor of Pastors Rainoldes Nay but the Pastors are not to be ruled by the Pope neither if this fansie hold For in your Latin authenticall translation the clawse which doth answere to the Gréeke word hath not sheep but lambes Whervpō your Rhemists also note the same as spokē of lambs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 feed rule So that howsoeuer he lay hold on others by that Gréeke word compared with your Latin text yet his rule gouernment of Bishops Pastors is shakē of therby And this is as much as half of his supremacy nay all by a consequent For his claime lieth first ouer Bishops and then by means of Bishops ouer the whole church Thus while you deuise by quirkes of your owne to vnderprop the Pope you lay him on the ground do him more harme by crasing of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then good by fortifying of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For although it signifie to feede in such sort as shepheards do their sheepe and so consequently to rule them and guide them in all respects as shepheards doo for the preseruing of them yet that charge of ruling belonged not to Peter alone peculiarly but was and is common vnto all shepheards Our English toong answereth not to the felicitie of the gréeke and latin in making euident proofe hereof For in the gréeke wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in the Latin pastor pasco the matter would be plainer But yet in our English a shepheard and to feede in that sort with ruling are yoked so togither by lincke as I may terme it of reason and sense though it appeare not in lincke and likenesse of words that as many as are called to the function of shepheards and Pastors of the church they all are bound by duetie to féede and rule so The proofe whereof we haue in Peter and Paule who mouing the Pastors whom they cal Elders to attend their charge the one beseecheth them to feede the flock of God which dependeth on them the other telleth them that the holy Ghost hath made them ouerseers to feede the church of God both vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as betokening the common charge of shepheards Yea Christ him selfe speaking to the Angel that is the shepherd of the church of Thyatira doth promise that hee who ouercommeth and keepeth his workes vnto the ende shall haue power giuen vnto him ouer nations and he shall rule them with a rodde of yron So that euen there where you note that word importeth greatest power of beating downe the wicked Christ applieth it to all his faithfull seruants and not to Peter onely Wherefore if it were so that hee had ment more by saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thē by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his charge to Peter yet he meant no more then that which belongeth to euery shepheards charge for the shéepe which God ordeineth him to féede But in truth if your itche of wresting holy scriptures to priuate fansies were healed you woulde rather thinke that S. Iohn did vtter one sense with sundry wordes as in the Lordes demaunde of Peter Doost thou loue mee so in his commandement to Peter Feede my sheepe
greatest danger of Peter he putteth him in minde first of his fall to humble him then of his rising to comfort him last of his duetie to quicken him vnto it His fall to coole the heate of pride and vaine glorie may I so terme it with the Fathers wherein hee presumed more then the rest did of his faith and constancy His rising that he should not despaire when he had fallen For though he dealt vnfaithfully denying Christ thrise yet his faith should not faile because he whom God doth alwayes heare had praied for him His duetie that being raised vp againe he should strengthen his brethren as hauing learned by experience both to haue compassion of the infirmitie of men to preach the goodnes and mercy of God The last point of his duetie was common to him as I haue shewed with the Apostles and therefore proueth no preeminence of supreme headship The first of his fall proueth a kinde of preeminence but in the denying of Christ aboue others which Popes haue best right to but they doo not claime it The other of his rising insueth and dependeth on that of his fall wherin sith he specially would sinne more then the rest and so his danger be more speciall and therefore néede more speciall succour Christ said to him in speciall But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not For Christ prayed the same for all his Apostles in sense though not in word by that solemne prayer made vnto his father I haue declared thy name vnto them holy father keepe them in thy name and sanctifie them with thy truth Neither did he pray this for them onely but for all the faithful which should beleeue in him through their word Wherfore as a good father hath care of all his children but if he sée some one distressed aboue the rest wil cheare him vp beside the rest a good Physition hath care of all the bodie but applieth plaisters to the part affected so Christ to helpe Peter who was to be distressed diseased most encouraged him with this comfort that his faith should not faile and laide that salue of Gods assured fauour on the sore of distrust that might afflict his minde Now this care and wisedome of a father and a Physition doth shew for the childe part whereto they tender it not that they be in greater honor then the rest but that they stand in greater néede The wordes of Christ therefore spoken vnto Peter I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not doo proue that he stood in greater danger then the rest not that he was in greater dignitie And these are the words of which D. Stapleton doth insolētly vaunt that they are so singular for Peters supremacy that Caluin when he had diligently weighed all other places reasons that are wont to be brought for it refuted them as he could made no mention at all of this place these words because he knew well that it was impossible to shift of words so manifest with any colour of a cauill Whereas it is most likely that Caluin a wise faithfull seruant of the Lord did therfore passe them ouer in handling your supremacy because he knew they made so litle for your purpose that if he should haue brought them in amongst your reasons he might séeme to haue sought a shadow wherewith to fight For you abuse them so notoriously that if I say not Caluin but any of the meanest children of the Prophets whom God hath scarcely giuen one portion of his spirit to would deale with you for it we haue as iust cause to charge you with this fact as Tamar had to charge her brother Ammon with his vilany Hart. Good Lord what meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay I may rather aske good Lord what meane you so to doo For as Amnon enamoured of his sisters beautie ensnaring her by fraude did force her to his lust and after cast her out whervpon she said this euill was greater then the other which he had done vnto her so the Pope enflamed with loue of the church entrapping her with guile and vsing violence vnto her doth cast her out of doores by giuing this as proper first to Peter then to him selfe that Christ prayed for him that his faith should not faile Wherein I haue this reason to say that he doth greater euill vnto the church then was the other which he did because in the other she had this comfort left that the transgression was rather his who did then hers who suffered force in this he taketh from her all comfort of her misery and maketh her ashamed to cast her eyes on God or man For what is the comfort of the Churche of Christ the faithfull and elect but that he hath prayed for vs that wée fayle not that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against vs that our hope might be an ancre of strong consolation that we doo beléeue and are assured by Gods spirite wee are the heires of life eternall of the which comfort that incestuous Amnon séeketh to bereaue vs and cast vs out of the doores when he saith that Christ prayed for Peter onely and after Peter for the Pope But of the Pope in due place Now we speake of Peter Hart. Why Dare you deny that Christ spake to Peter and to Peter onely when he said Simon I haue prayed for thee that thy faith should not faile Dooth not the very text of the Gospell shew it Rainoldes What Dare you deny that Christ spake to the man sicke of the palsie and to him onely when he said Sonne be of good comfort thy sinnes are forgiuen thee Dooth not the verie text of the Gospell shewe it But is this a proofe that other Christians haue not their sinnes forgiuen too And doo wée all beléeue in vaine when we beleeue forgiuenes of sinnes Or may you not affirme it with as good reason as you affirme the other of Peter not to faile in faith Are you the maisters of Israell who make so great boast of skill in all Diuinitie and doo you not know that Pastors and Preachers of whom Christ was the chiefest apply the generall doctrines of the lawe and Gospell to them in particular who néede to be reléeued thereby If I should say to some couetous man who grindeth the faces of the poore and buildeth vp his house with blood or ioyneth benefice to benefice and taketh charge of a flocke which he féedeth not Let thy conuersation be without couetousnesse for he hath saide I will not faile thee nor forsake thee doo I take this comfort of the prouidence of God from euery other Christian because I assure it to one in particular Or did the Apostle ouershoote himselfe in saying that to all the faithful which God said to Ioshua I will not leaue thee
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
he agreeth not precisely word for worde with the Cambron-copie Now the Cambron-copie what is it or whence came it that Cyprian should be made the father of such slippes vpon the credit of it alone What if some did note them in the margent of fansie as students vse to doo What if some receiued them into the text of errour What if some of zeale vnto the church of Rome did adde them And why did not Pamelius leaue out the other words of the equalitie of the Apostles in honor and power because the Cambron copie wanteth them as well as adde these of Peters primacie and chaire because the Cambron-copie hath them Did not his conscience tell him that the copie was vnsound or at the least insufficient to force the change of a place of so great importance against the credite of so many both writen bookes and printed If other Licentiates as learned as Pamelius shall vpon one copie as good as the Cambron presume in all the Fathers as he hath in CypriaÌ„ to adde the like gloses for the rest of your opinions as these are for the chaire and primacie of Peter it will be hie time for vs to take héede how wee permitte the tryall of controuersies in religion to the consent of the Fathers Wherfore although these matters seeme neuer so small yet there may lie as much on them as concerneth the safety of our soules Neither doo I picke them as quarrels for pretense but I alleage them as reasons for proofe that by the position of your owne author we must deale with you not by their consent but by the scripture onely For he on whom you grouÌ„ded Vincentius Lirinensis alloweth onely scripture to conuince those errors which haue encreased long wide because the length of time hath geuen them occasion to steale away the trueth and the poyson spreading farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers Your error of the Papacie hath spread farre and growen long you haue endeuoured to corrupt the writinges of the Fathers the forgeries are plaine in Cyprian in Cyrill and in the Councell of Chalcedon the presumptions are great that you haue beene as bold with other as with these For if Thomas of Aquine made no conscience of it what may be thought of such as were more ambitious And if Manutius dealt so with Cyprian in whom hee sought most credit what did his ten yeares labors in setting foorth the rest And if Papistes durste this in the light of printing what may we feare they did in the darcknesse of writing bookes And if the Roman print be folowed at Anwerp the Anwerp at Paris the Paris other-where perhaps and the newer the worser and the worst accounted best by such as D. Stapleton and testimonies alleaged thence as authenticall how much likelyer is it that when they wrote copies in Monasteries and Abbeys they folowed one another with lesser shame and greater loosenes and so did proceede from good to euill from euill to worse and authors of that age did most approue those copies which made for their aduauntage most and brought authorities out of them To conclude therefore euen by his iudgement to whom you appealed Vincentius Lirinensis in that golden booke against the profane innouations of all heresies the touchstone by the which our controuersie must be tryed is the word of God and not the word of men not the consent of Fathers but the holy scripture and the scripture only And this I may protest I speake not of feare as though the Fathers all held with you against vs but of conscience that I may yeelde due glory to God due reuerence to his word For let such forgeries as I haue spoken of be set apart and what haue all the Fathers nay what hath any of them to prooue the pretended supremacie of Peter Hart. The very same Fathers whose wordes I alleaged before and them acknowledged to be their owne not counterfeits geue Peter the supremacie which you call pretended For S. Ierom saith of him Peter was of so great authoritie that Paul wrote Then after three yeares and so forth and S. Austin affirmeth that the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter and Chrysostome calleth him the mouth of the Apostles the chiefe and toppe of the company and he is named by Theodoret the prince of the Apostles the prince which title also is geuen him by all antiquitie Wherto I may adde that Epiphanius termeth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the highest of the Apostles and S. Austin yet farther their head their President the first of them which preeminence he prooueth also out of S. Cyprian who saith that the Lord did choose Peter first S. Ierom teacheth that Peter was chosen one among the twelue to the inteÌ„t that a head being appointed occasion of scisme might bee taken away The bookes of the Fathers are full of such sayings but they are all to this effect And therfore these fewe may serue to shew their iudgement Rainoldes These sayings and the like which are alleaged out of the Fathers doo touch three prerogatiues which they giue to Peter the first of authoritie the second of primacie the third of principalitie But none of them all doth proue the supremacy which you pretend to Peter and meane to the Pope For by thaâ— supremacie is signified the sâ—lnes of ecclesiasticall or rather Papall power euen a power soueraine of gouerning the Church throughout the whole world in all points matters of doctrine and discipline as you declared Is it not Hart. It is so What then Rainoldes But none of the sayings alleaged out of the Fathers doe geue this soueraine power to Peter Therfore they proue not his pretended supremacie Hart. They geue it him all Rainoldes I wil shew the contrary And to speake in order of the three prerogatiues which by them are geuen him the first out of Ierom that Peter was of great authoritie is nothing to your purpose For it is apparaunt that sith the supremacie dooth note a soueraine power the question is of power and not of authoritie Hart. As who say that power and authoritie did differ so much one from the other Rainoldes Much. For power importeth a right of rule and gouernment which the superiors haue ouer their inferiors for the good ordering of mankind as Princes ouer subiectes Pastors ouer flocks Masters ouer seruants Husbands ouer wiues By authoritie is meant estimation and credite a good opinion of men for that which wée account worthy to bée estéemed For they of whom we think so well in respect of their vertue or wisdome or state or other qualities that we will folow them as authors in our dooings our iudgements factes or words are said to be of credite and authoritie with vs. And this an inferior may haue with his superior As
flocke And what is this to Peters successour the Pope who preacheth not as Peter did For he vseth not to preach but when he saith Masse nor then vnlesse he list and he saith not Masse but on a fewe hie feastes nor then if he be let and the Italian gouernment specially the Papacy so discreetly menaged must néedes haue le ts a number His Princely cares do trouble him he leaueth Priestly to the Friers Wherefore that sacrilegious vsurper of Rome committeth two euils against both the head and the bodie of the Church Against the head in that he maketh the prerogatiue of one Pastor common to all Popes which is proper to Christ. Against the body in that hee claimeth the title of Christes vicar as proper to him selfe which is common to all Pastours Hart. Nay you who reuile the high priest of God commit a great euill But he coÌ„mitteth none at all For he taketh not the prerogatiue of one Pastor as Christ but vnder Christ. And he claimeth the title of Christes vicar by an excellencie as the chiefe and generall though all other Bishops be Christes vicars also Rainoldes This is to roale the stone of Sisyphus You driue it vp the hill and still it slippeth backeward yet cease you not to striue but you striue in vaine For though you fetch it vp neuer so often downe againe it will All Bishops you say are the vicars of Christ but the Pope claimeth that title by an excellencie True By an excellencie he robbeth al Bishops of that honour which Christ hath giuen them For he doth account them all to be his vicars as Cardinall Turrecremata calleth them expressely the vicars of the Pope and proueth by the Popes owne law that they are so Wherefore if you will haue them Christes vicars too the matter must be helped out with your distinction that first and directly they are the Popes vicars and Christes by a consequent and secondarilie As for the man whom you call the hie priest of God I know him not For he is not the hie priest of the Iewes I trow And Christians haue no hie priest but the Sonne of the Highest euen him of whom it is writen such an hie priest it became vs to haue which is holy harmelesse vndefiled separate from sinners and made higher then the heauens Wherefore I speake not the wordes of reuiling but of truth and modestie when I call him a sacrilegious vsurper who taketh the crowne of the king of kings and fetteth it on his owne head This doth that man of sinne who saith that it is necessarie for euery man vnto saluation to be subiect to the Pope and that they who say hee hath not charge ouer them are not of Christs sheepe because the Lord saith in Iohn that there shall be one flocke and one pastour Hart. You néede not account it so heinous a matter to conclude that doctrine by these wordes of Christ. Chiefely sith it is probable that he meant them rather of the Pope then him selfe For he saith there shall be one flocke and one Pastor he saith not there hath beene but there shall be Now him selfe as being God was alway Pastor of the Gentiles also no lesse theÌ„ of the Iewes And so in respect of him there had before bene one flocke and one pastor Wherfore sith he speaketh of a thing that should be not that had bene alreadie he might be well thought to haue meant not him selfe but the Pope rather who in his stéed is Pastor both of Iewes and Gentiles Rainoldes Had the Gentiles alway God for their Pastor as well as the Iewes What meant S. Paule then who saith to the Gentiles ye were without Christ and aliants from the common wealth of Israell and straungers from the couenants of promise and had no hope and were without God in the world For God is called Pastor in respect of them whom he guideth and feedeth with the foode of life So that if he were Pastor of the Gentiles alway as you say he was then they were alway faithfull and members of the Church and had the hope of God in Christ. But if they were before without Christ without hope without God in the world and aliants from the common wealth of Israell that is the Church and straungers from the couenants of promise made to the faithfull as they were S. Paule saith then neither were they one flocke with the Iewes neither was God their one Pastor wherfore what â—oeuer shew of probabilitie the Pope might séeme to haue for abusing those wordes to maintaine his own pride in truth they agree to him who broke the stoppe of the partition-wall and made of both one that is to Christ Iesus and onely to Christ. Hart. Well If the wordes agree not to the Pope perhaps in one sense they may in an other For there are sundry senses of the holy scriptures but in generall two as Father Robert sheweth whereof the one is called historicall or literall the other mysticall or spirituall And so the spéech of Christ touching one Pastor might signifie the Pope in a mysticall sense though not in the literall As likewise the name of hye priest signifying the Iewish literally doth mystically betoken him Rainoldes That sense is the right sense of the scriptures which the holy Ghost the author of them meant Now the holye Ghost hath vttered them in such sort that not the wordes onely do signifie things according to their naturall sense but the things also expressed by the wordes do signifie other things according to the Lordes ordinance who shadowed that by figures in the olde Testament which is performed in the newe As for example it is writen in the law of Moses you shall not breake a bone of him These wordes are spoken touching the lambe of the passeouer and signifie as they sound that the Iewes should dresse it whole without breaking any bone thereof But this thing doth signifie a faâ—ther thing in secret to wéete that when Christ who was represented figured by the lambe should suffer death to saue vs a bone of him should not be broken Thus of one place there are two senses the former called literall because the letter as it were that is the very wordes being vnderstood aright do import it and the later mysticall because the thing imported and meant by the letter doth betoken a déeper mysterie Of these the literall sense is knowne to be the meaning of the holy Ghost For wordes were made to open the conceites of our mind and so are they vsed by the holy Ghost to shew the will of God vnto vs. The mysticall is known to be his meaning also when himselfe reuealeth it as he hath done in that touching the lambe Otherwise it is not For men may deuise many mysticall senses of a place in scripture and them one contrarie to an other as often times they doo Which all could not be meant by
the chaire of Moses but in the chaire of Christ doo the Priests sit for they haue receiued his doctrine Which point vnlesse your former argument were naught will proue that Priestes cannot erre no more then Popes For they who sit in Christes chaire haue greater prerogatiue then they who sate in the chaire of Moses Priestes then Scribes and Pharises The Scribes and the Pharises were to be obeied in all things which they said The Priestes must bee therefore much more obeied in all things But if they should erre then ought they not to be obeied Therefore they cannot erre in any thing they say Acknowledge you the forme of your owne argument Doth not the conclusion folow as necessarily here as there And thinke you M. Hart that Priestes cannot erre Thinke you that your selfe are of this perfection that wée ought to obey both you and your companions in all thinges which you say Or if you thinke not so fondly of them so proudly of your selfe as I hope you do not then leaue Doctor Stapletons exposition which inferreth it which he patcheth vp with the wordes of Austin Chrysostome and Origen whereas not one of them meant it Yéelde rather if you be wedded to Doctors of your owne side vnto their authoritie then whom the Church of Rome hath none of greater knowledge and perfiter iudgement for right interpreting of the scriptures I meane Iohn Ferus Arias Montanus Of whom the one saith that Christ taught his disciples to obserue and doo whatsoeuer the Scribes and the Pharises commanded by the prescript of the law that is out of the chaire of Moses the other that he chargeth vs to obey euil prelates yet withall he addeth how farre we must obey them Do ye saith he all things which they shall say vnto you but he had told them first they sit vpon the chaire of Moses For Christ did not meane that they should obserue all the decrees of Pharises but so farre forth as they agreed with the law According whereunto when he had shewed before also that they taught contrarie to the law in some pointes after certaine things touched betweene he added Beware of the leauen of the Pharises In like sort he said to the Apostles and their successours Hee that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and it shall be easier for the land of Sodom in the day of iudgement then for them who shall not receiue you and heare your wordes But Matthew had set downe before that Christ chose twelue whom he called Apostles and charged them to preach the gospell Whereby it appeereth that the Apostles must be heard but so farre forth as they be Apostles that is as they doo Christes worke and preach and teach the thinges which Christ commanded But if they teach other thinges and contrarie to Christ then are they not Apostles now but seducers and therefore not to be heard O the great light of truth which forceth euen the aduersaries not onely to perceiue it but also to reueale it often So will it force you too if you haue so much grace as Ferus and Montanus had Hart. So much grace as to say that if the Apostles teach thinges contrarie to Christ they are no Apostles now but seducers Doo you allow that spéech of Ferus And might the Apostles be seducers Rainoldes Peter an Apostle might say vnto Christ when he heard him speake of suffering at Ierusalem Maister pitie thy selfe this shall not be vnto thee And Christ would not therefore haue called him Satan had he not thought him a seducer Hart. But Christ did giue them afterwarde the holy ghost in greater abundance from heauen when he sent them to preach vnto all the world Rainoldes But Christ had told them before that it should be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then for the citie that shold not heare their wordes Yet Christ himselfe refused to heare the wordes of Peter Wherefore the exposition of Ferus is good that Christ meant those wordes which he had willed them to preach that is the gospell Beside that Ferus speaketh not onely of Apostles but also of their successours Now though the Apostles were priuileged afterwarde by the speciall graces of the holy ghost to teach the truth in all thinges yet Bishops who succeeded them haue not that priuilege You must renounce therfore that erroneous expositioÌ„ which knitteth an assured truth of faith and doctrine to the succession of the Apostles and bindeth vs in all thinges to obey them who succeede into the seate of the Apostles and saith that he who sitteth in the chaire of the Apostles doth speake not his owne thinges but the thinges of God For our Sauiour meant that the Scribes Pharises ought to be obeied in al things which they taught out of the law of God not that they câ—uld not erre in faith and doctrine because they did succeede Aaron Hart. I cannot conceiue but that he meant to cléere their doctrine from errour For his wordes of doing that which they say because they sit in the chaire of Moses are rather a warraÌ„t for them in all thinges which they teach then a restraint for others how farre they must obey them Rainoldes His wordes belong properly to the instruction of hearers that they despise not the doctrine of God for the fautes of teachers So are they both a warrant and a restraint by consequent A warrant for teachers to be obeied in all things which they shall say out of the law A restraint for hearers not to doo those thinges whiâ—h the teachers say if they shall teach against the law As letters of credence geuen by Princes vnto their embassadours doo warrant them for their commission restraine them if they goe beyond it Hart. But the commission here is generall for all thinges that concerne teachers For Christ expresly sâ—ith obserue ye and doo ye Now we obserue pointes of faith we doo precepts of maners Wherefore whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharises taught either of faith or maners they were to be obeyed in it Rainoldes That were a pretie proofe for your traditions of both sortes if it had ground in the text But to obserue and doo are both referred by Christ to the same thinges as he sheweth by comprising them first in the one worde then in the other All thinges whatsoeuer they say you must obserue obserue ye and doo ye but after their workes doo not for they say and doo not So it séemeth that to fasten his lesson of obeying the commandements of God which the Scribes and Pharises taught out of Moses he doubleth as it were his stroke by saying both obserue ye and doo ye Wherein he might expresse and call to their remembrance that which he doth commend of Moses who doubleth oft the same wordes in vrging of the same doctrine To be short
the will of God Wherefore the succession of Constantinople though they fetch it from the Apostles yet proueth not the faith which they professe to be true because they haue departed from the Apostles doctrine in which they should succeede chiefely Rainoldes Now you say well In déede the succession in place is nothing woorth succession in doctrine is it which maketh all But what meane you then to send vs such bead-reales of your Bishops of Rome from Peter to Gregory as vndoubted arguments of the Catholike faith when we can send you as solemne a bead-roale of Constantinople from Andrew to Ieremie and proue nothing by it What trifling is this to say first that succession of Bishops in place proueth truth of doctrine and then to adde that it doth so if it haue succession in doctrine ioyned with it In effect as if you said that succession in place doth proue the doctrine to be true if the doctrine be true a couple of eares doo proue a creature to be a man if they be a mans eares The Fathers alleaged succession in place not with condition if it had but with a reason that it had succession in doctrine Proue me that you haue succession in doctrine and then alleage vnto me the Fathers for succession For if as S. Austin saide against the Donatists after he had reckened the Bishops of Rome from Peter to Anastasius In the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist so you reckning them from Peter to Gregorie might say in like sort In the rancke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that hath vsurped then were your reason as fit against vs for the supremacy of the Pope as S. Austins was for the Church against the Donatists Hart. I may say so in like sort For S. Austin meant as well of this point as of all others when he said of the succession of the Bishops of Rome that the gates of hell preuailed not against it Rainoldes If this gate of hell preuailed not against them in S. Austins time yet many thinges may happen betweene the cuppe and the lippe as the prouerbe is much more betwéene his time and ouâ—s But S. Austin meant not to speake of vsurping in that against the Donatists and if he had he learned by experience afterwarde that they could vsurpe and would if they were not curbed For thrée of them euen Zosimus Boniface and Caelestin did vsurpe ouer the Churches of Afrike while Austin was aliue yet who with the whole Councell of abooue two hundred Bishops of that countrie withstood their attempt as much as lay in him and stayed their pride Hart. Their pride You slander those holy Bishops in saying so Rainoldes Which holy Bishops of Afrike Them selues in their epistles to the Bishops of Rome doo note it with the same worde and if they slandered them it was with a matter of truth But of this hereafter more conueniently For the point in hand it is sufficient that S. Austin applying that text to the Church of Rome that the gates of hell preuailed not against it spake of soundnes of doctrine which the Donatists did faute in not of soueraintie of power wherof there was no question with them Hart. Gregorie the great speaketh of soueraintie of power and proueth by that same text the Church of Rome to be the head of all Churches because Christ committed specially this Church to S. Peter saying to thee wil I giue my Church Rainoldes By that same How Christ saith not to Peter to thee will I giue my Church He saith vpon this rocke will I builde my Church And therein if Gregories iudgement may rule you the rocke is Christ him selfe which Peter had his name of and on which he saide he would build his Church the Church is the holie Church that is to say the companie of Gods elect and chosen which shall neuer fall away from the Catholike faith in this world and in the world to come shall continue stedfast for euer with God For the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it There was some affection that troubled Gregories minde when he did chaunge that text and as it were appropriate it to his Sée of Rome and Stapletons heart was taken with some affection also when he cited Gregorie to proue his purpose thence For nether doth the title of the head of all Churches proue the Roman Papacie neither doth Gregory although he geue that title to the Church of Rome yet proue it by that same text The thing which he proueth is that the Emperour who receyued money for ecclesiasticall liuinges and spoyled the Church with sâ—monie ought not so to doo chiefly in the Church of Rome For hauing touched his gréedinesse of this filthie gaine yea he hath saith Gregorie stretched out so farre the rashnesse of his furie that he chalengeth to him selfe the head of all Churches euen the Church of Rome and vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer the ladie of nations Which he did altogether forbidde to be doon who specially committed this Church to S. Peter the Apostle saying To thee will I giue my Church Wherein that which Gregorie would say is plaine enough by the wordes that go before it The maner of his saying and prouing it is hard For he saith of the Roman Church that the Emperour vsurpeth the right of earthly power ouer it Whereby a man would thinke hee meant to denye the ciuill rule and gouernment of Rome to the Emperour as now the Popes doo Then which he meant nothing lesse for he acknowledged himselfe the Emperours subiect vsed him accordingly But he meant by the right of earthly power vsurped ouer the Church the right of dealing with Church-liuings after the maner of the world in setting them to sale as men doo farmes and leases which is prophane and detestable Now Gregorie being grieued that the Emperour asked money euen of the Bishop of Rome himselfe whose election he confirmed with his royall assent he thought good to amplifie the heinousnesse of the fact as most vnlawfull and wicked in the Church of Rome And thereupon he saith that Christ did forbid it who specially committed this Church to S. Peter saying To thee will I giue my Church In the gospell we reade of Peter that he knew not what he said when he saide to Christ whom he beheld in glory Maister it is good for vs to be here and let vs make three tabernacles Gregorie had a louing affection to Rome Will you giue me leaue to thinke of him as of Peter that he knew not what he said For the wordes which he alleageth are not the wordes of Christ as you must néedes graunt The thing he gathereth of them is against the words of Christ who generally committed all Churches to Peter for he was an Apostle and if any specially it was that of the
not in whole Which is Baldwins meaning as it appéereth by the place not of Optatus but of Austin whereto he applieth it Rainoldes But if Baldwin meant so Baldwin should haue remembred that a testament so made is not testamentum nuncupatiuum for that is vnwriten as the very rudiments of the law might teach him but imperfectum rather though writen yet vnperfit And I trust you will not say that the testament of Christ is vnperfit Sure Optatus would not Hart. Nor I sir though you would faine imply as though I said so For if Christ would haue his will in part writen in part deliuered by word of mouth ioyne them both togither they make a perfit testament Rainoldes Then the writen testament of Christ is vnperfit It will be gay and perfit with your traditions patched to it But Optatus thought that his writen testament is perfit of it selfe Which shaketh all the frame of Popery in péeces And this is that Optatus of whom S. Austin speaketh as of a worthy Catholike Bishop equall to Ambrose and Cyprian of whom Fulgentius speaketh as of a holy faithfull interpretor of Paule like to Austin and Ambrose of whom your great Champion doth vaunt so gloriously that he nor he onely but the rest of the Fathers are of your religion as surely and fully as the Pope himselfe Pope Gregorie the thirteenth whereas in very truth not one of them is so For Gregorie the thirteenth is of your religioÌ„ in the Popes supremacie the chiefest point of Poperie as his rules of Chancery for reâ—eru ations and prouisions his accursing of all that appeale from Popes to Councels his bulles against decrees of Councels both prouinciall and generall doo shew From which abomination how farre the Fathers were it shall appéere when you alleage them But Optatus is so plaine against your religion in the point of scriptures and their sufficiencie to decide all controuersies that your chalenger if he read him and not beleeued common-place-bookes of Canisius and other broakers might haue blushed to boast of him For those things which he citeth out of Optatus do not as much as rase the skinne of our religion though they séeme to weake eye sightes But this of scriptures onely doth breake the necke of yours and it is so cléerely the iudgement of Optatus that your owne Baldwin in his Annotations is faine to say of him he vsed that comparison of a testament not so warily Hart. Not so warily as Austin doth For Austin vseth it when he will proue out of the scriptures that the Church is catholike which was one of the pointes of their controuersie with the Donatists Rainoldes But in handling that point he maketh it a generall rule that whether it be of Christ or of his church or of any thing else whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life nothing must be preached beside the scriptures that is the testament Hart. But in an other point of their controuersie touching baptisme S. Austin doth alleage not so much the scripture as the tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes Not so much the scripture He doth the scripture then though he alleageth also the custome of the Church deliuered by the Apostles But what is that against the testament Hart. Nay beside the testament which is the word writen he doth commend vnwriten traditions in other places Which proueth that he thought not the testament sufficient to decide all controuersies Rainoldes Now S. Austin findeth fauour at your hands who make him say and vnsay the same But where vnsaith hée that of the sufficiencie of scripture Hart. You may sée in the Augustinian confession of Torrensis in the chapter of Traditions Rainoldes But I would sée it in S. Austin Torrensis is a Iesuit whom we haue taken oft in lyes I cannot trust him Hart. Why He alleageth S. Austins owne wordes As in the first place which bringeth in S. Cyprian too Quod autem nos admonet Cyprianus vt ad fontem recâ—rramus id est Apostolicam traditionem inde canalem in nostra tempora dirigamus optimum est sine dubitatione faciendum That is to say whereas Cyprian warneth vs that we should go to the coondit head which is the tradition of the Apostles and thence direct the pipe to our owne times that is best and to be done out of all dout These are S. Austins owne wordes Rainoldes S. Austins owne wordes in déede But what doth folow in S. Austin Traditum est ergo nobis sicut ipse commemorat ab Apostolis quòd sit vnus deus Christus vnus vna spes fides vna vna ecclesia baptisma vnum That is to say It is deliuered therefore to vs by the Apostles as Cyprian himselfe rehearseth that there is one God and one Christ and one hope and one faith and one church and one baptisme These are S. Austins owne wordes and grounded on S. Cyprian too So that he and Cyprian meant by tradition that which is deliuered and that to be deliuered which is writen in the scriptures For this selfe same thing whereof they speake is writen in the epistle of Paule to the Ephesians Wherefore their traditioÌ„ is tradition writen that is to say scripture and not vnwriten stuffe as your Iesuit would haue it Yea Cyprian is so plaine for controuersies to be decided by this tradition onely that in the same epistle whence Austin citeth this to the words of Stephanus Traditum est it is deliuered vnde est ista traditio faith he whence is this tradition Doth it come from the authoritie of the Lord and the gospell or from the commaundements and epistles of the Apostles For that we must doo those things which are writen God doth witnesse saying to Ioshua Let not this booke of the law depart out of thy mouth but meditate in it day and night that thou maiest obserue to performe all thinges which are writen therein And likewise the Lorde sending his Apostles willed them that the nations should bee baptized and taught to obserue all things which he had commaunded Wherefore if this thing of the which Stephanus saith it is deliuered be commaunded in the gospell or contained in the epistles or actes of the Apostles let this diuine and holy tradition be obserued Sée you not how Cyprian thought that all which Christ commanded to be taught is writen How hee meant this writen doctrine by tradition How his words of this tradition are approued by Austin What conscience had your Iesuit to alleage that for traditions beside scriptures which they so plainely meant of the scriptures them selues Hart. I do not sée this neither in S. Austin nor in S. Cyprian Rainoldes I am the soryer that your sight serueth you no better For the thing is so cléere that your owne Pamelius declareth that Cyprian meant the holy scriptures there by tradition Hart. Yet Pamelius addeth that if
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
onely but Sedulius doo write that our Sauiour after his resurrection appeered first to the blessed virgin which is false but they thought through an affection to her that he should haue done so in like sort a louing affection to Saintes hath transported sundry not onely later writers but auncienter also from the truth to fansies Gelasius and the seuentie Bishops who were assembled in a Councel with him were assembled about eleuen hundred yeares ago Yet euen then how manie stories of the Saintes were set abroade with forged fables almost a whole bead-roale condemned by the Councell Whereof that some were coyned vpon that affection as some vpon others one of them entitled the actes of Paule and Tecla may serue for an example These actes contained a storie supposed to be omitted in the actes of the Apostles how that when S. Paule did preach at Iconium Tecla a maiden betrothed to a gentleman hearing him preach of maidenhood forsooke her husband by and by and went away with him and thereupon was persecuted and deliuered from great dangers and wrought many miracles and trauailed through sundry countries with S. Paule Which though it be a lewd tale agréeing neither with the circumstance of S. Paules storie nor with his doctrine and discretion yet was it published as true and that in the Apostles age by an Elder or Priest as you would terme him who was conuicted by S. Iohn and confessed that he wrote it for good will that he bare to Paule Such a credit belike he thought it would be to S. Paule that a maide betrothed to a man of wealth and worship and so his wife by right should forsake her husband and goe away with him Wherefore though you minde not to presse me with thinges of later writers but of old ancient as you say yet was it not impertinent to mention your Portesse and stories of the like autoritie For neither doo I know what number of yeares you will thinke sufficient to proue a writer old and though you account none olde but such as liued many hundred yeares since yet are their fables in your Portesse as namely this of Tecla euen out of them also Yea the most of those things not onely this of Tecla but the most of those things which Gelasius Bishop of Rome and the Councell condemned for vnsound I say the most of those things are rehearsed in your legends and in the most of your Portesses Which thing I affirme not of mine owne knowlege for I haue not séene so many sortes of Portesses that I can vouch it of the most but Claudius Espencaeus a Doctor of Paris an eger enimie of Beza the worthier of credit herein affirmeth it and he affirmeth it with great asseueration that it is so vndoutedly Nor doth he touch them onely for these so ancient lyes but for many mo which are of lesse ancientie and that vpon the iudgement of sundry learned men and not his priuate fansie For he alleageth Peter a venerable Abbat who liued foure hundred yeares agoe saying that the songs and hymnes of the Church had very many toyes as namely an hymne in the praise of S. Benet in the which though reading it ouer somewhat hastily and staying not to search all yet he found at least foure and twentie lyes He alleageth an other Peter complayning likewise and reprouing a false and fond hymne in the praise of S. Mawre running vpon the waters He alleageth the Cardinall of Aliacos aduise to the Councell of Constance for order to be taken that vnsound writings corrupt and péeuish pamphlets be not read in the Church-seruice He alleageth the oration of the Earle of Mirandula to Pope Leo the tenth and the Councell of Lateran renewing the Cardinall of Aliacos aduise He alleageth Raphael Volaterran a great historian if not a diuine bewailing the case that in the dayly praiers there are manifest lies read He alleageth Adrian who afterward was Pope Adrian the sixth misliking superstitious forgeries in holy matters In a word he saith that the Catholikes may lament in the behalfe of the Church as Ieremie lamented in the behalfe of the Synagogue Thy prophets haue seene false and foolish things for thee and he addeth that the griefe which he doth feele and open for these toyes dotages crept into the publike seruice of the Church is common vnto him with all good men for the most part Wherein as his desire and zeale of reformation is greater then Canus who would not haue this filth swept out of the Portesses so dealeth he more fréely and frankly with your churches legends too then Canus For letting go the scurffe of the golden legend and Antoninus and Vincentius hee reproueth the storie of Saintes which was compiled of late by a Venetian a Bishop of account and saith that no stable is â—o ful of doong as that is of fables Yea farther that Simeon Metaphrastes a great man in the new legends of Lipomanus and Surius and Vsuardes Martyrologe which is the Church of Romes legend besides the Martyrologes of certaine other writers are fraught with much baggage Now to this Parisian Doctor Espencaeus and the autours whom he alleageth you may adde the kings professours and chiefest Doctors of Louan if you desire more witnesses euen Hessels and Molanus Of whom the one writing a Censure on a storie called the Passionall of Saintes condemneth much thereof and enditeth more with this verdict Try al things holde that which is good the other setting foorth and commending that Censure saith it is no maruaile if in that Passionall there be corrupt stories sith the stories which the Catholikes of that countrie found amongst the lying Greekes might easily come into it Molanus layeth the faulte vpon the lying Greekes as they deserue it best indéed Notwithstanding it appéereth by some whom either Hesâ—els or himselfe haue censured that not the Greekes alone are faultie And sundry Greekes are faultie whom he would be loth to call lying Greekes as namely Nicephorus Simeon Metaphrastes of the newer writers of the ancienter Palladius and Cassianus Of all whom Molanus hath giuen this note that most learned men do iudge them not worthy to be greatly credited Whereby you may sée that the iudgement of Canus touching the stories of Saintes is more a great deale then one Doctors iudgement Howbeit if so many were not of his minde yet should you doo him wrong to cast him off as one Doctor For himselfe alleageth the testimonie of a Doctor as good as any that I haue named I meane that worthy man Ludouicus Viues Who lamenting that the stories of heathen captaines and philosophers are writen so notably that they are like to liue for euer but the liues of Apostles of Martyrs of Saintes the actes of the
the Ministers doth shew And herein their dealing is so much the worse because they set it out with the name of Erasmus as if he meant by sacrificing the saying of Masse which is farre from him For although by reason he thought that the word doth properly signifie not simply to minister but to minister in holy thinges as they who serue in the Priesthood therfore he did translate it that the Prophets Doctours in the Church at Antioche were sacrificing to the Lord yet he saith that hereby is meant that they imployed their giftes to Gods glory and the saluation of the Church the Prophets in propheciing the Doctours in teaching the doctrine of the Gospell So he vnderstandeth nothing els by sacrificing then others doo by ministring or rather then the scripture doth as it is obserued out of the circumstances of the text by the best of your own interpreters Who séeing that the men were Prophets and Doctours which are said to haue béene ministring to the Lord thereupon do gather that they serued him in executing their owne ministerie that is to say the ministerie of prophecying and teaching In which sort the Gréeke fathers doo expound it also what meaneth the word ministring say they it meaneth preaching Wherefore if the name of Liturgie were taken hereof by the Gréeke fathers as your Rhemists adde it is a good hearing but so much the lesse will it proue your Masâ—e For if they vnderstood preaching by ministring when the worde is spoken of Prophets and Doctours it is the more likely that when they applyed it to the ministerie of the Pastours â— seruice of the Church they meant the publike prayers and other holy functions which we doo call Diuine seruice As in truth they did For that which we call euening prayer they called the euening Liturgie as you would say the seruice doon to God at euening and in the verie Liturgie that is called Chrysostomes because he made some part of it belike not all for himselfe therein is prayed too but in that very Liturgie the word is applied to the Churches seruice in the same maner as it is to the seruice which Angels doo to God And I hope you will not affirme that the Angels doo say Masse in heauen Wherefore howsoeuer Erasmus did translate it after the phrase of his time wherein the Churches seruice was commonly called Missa the ministerie mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles doth not proue that sacrifice of which you would inferre your Priesthood As for the place of Esay in which it is writen you shall be called the Priests of God the Ministers of our God shal it be said vnto you the course of the text doth seeme to meane by Priestes all the seruants of God whom Peter calleth an holy Priesthood to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. For the words are spoken as in Christes person to all the faithfull and repentant who should be trees of righteousnes to build vp the Church and thereupon are promised that their enimies shall serue them and they shall serue God But in an other place of Esay I graunt the name of Priest is giuen to Pastors and Elders where speaking of the calling and conuersion of the Gentiles And of them saith he will I take for Priests for Leuites saith the Lord. Hart. S. Ierom doth expound the former place of them also But all is one to my purpose For séeing that Pastours and Elders as you terme them are called Priests in scripture and the name of Priest implyeth you confesse autoritie to sacrifice it foloweth that Pastours and Elders are Priestes autorized to sacrifice Now the Priest that hath autoritie to sacrifice is he whom you do call a Masse-priest Wherefore both Masse and Priests are proued by the scripture Rainoldes Why Thinke you that euerie Christian man and woman is a Masse-priest because the name of Priests is giuen them by scripture in respect of spirituall sacrifices which they must offer vnto God Hart. No. Because the sacrifices that they must offer are spirituall and are called sacrifices by a borowed kinde of spéech and not properly But the sacrifice which is offered to God in the Masse is an external visible true and proper sacrifice as it is declared by the Councell of Trent So that the Priestes ordeined to offer this sacrifice are properly called Priestes wheras other Christians are called so improperly according to the nature of the sacrifices which they offer Rainoldes Then the name of Priestes alleaged out of Esay doth not proue your Masse-priestes For he doth call the Ministers of the gospell Priestes in respect of the spirituall sacrifices which they must offer And that appéereth by the words going next before in which the Lord declaring euen by S. Ieroms iudgement too that he would call the Iewes to the same honour that by the name of Priests is signified and they saith he shall bring the Gentiles for an offering to the Lord as the children of Israel offer in a cleane vessell in the house of the Lord. So to bring the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord is that for which they who do bring such offerings are named Priestes and Leuites But the offering vp of the Gentiles vnto him is a spirituall sacrifice made by the Ministers of Christ as Paule sheweth when they conuert the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospell The sacrifice therefore in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes by Esay is a spirituall sacrifice And as euerie faithfull person is a Priest because we must offer each his owne bodie a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God so that name is giuen to Ministers of the gospell because they are called to offer vp the bodies of other men in like sort Wherefore if priuate Christians are not Masse-priestes because their sacrifices are spirituall then sith the Ministers must offer vp the like sacrifices it foloweth by your answere that nether they are Masse-priestes Hart. The Ministers of the gospell must offer vp the like sacrifices I deny it not And in that respect it is true that nether they nor priuate Christians are proued to bee Masse-priestes But there is an other an externall sacrifice that Ministers must offer also euen that which our Lord in the prophet Malachie doth call a cleane oblation and saith that in euerie place it is sacrificed and offered to his name because his name is great among the Gentiles And that is the sacrifice in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes properly and are indéede Masse-priests For the cleane oblation is the sacrifice of the Masse wherein the body and blood of Christ is offered vp vnto God his father as the Councell sheweth an oblation that cannot be defiled by the vnworthines or wickednes of them who offer it Rainoldes What And be
your Priestes of the tribe of Leui who offer vp this sacrifice Hart. No syr nor of the Iewes but they are Christian Priestes Rainoldes But they who must offer the sacrifice that is spoken of in the prophet Malachie are of the tribe of Leui. For afterward entreating of the same oblation or offering as we cal it that shall be offered vnto God in the time of the gospell he saith that the Lord shall fine the sonnes of Leui and purifie them as gold and siluer that they may offer an offering vnto God in righteousnes Wherefore if the offering that Malachie doth speake of be the sacrifice of the Masse that is a sacrifice properly then the proper Priestes by whom it is offered are the Iewish Priests after the order of Aaron euen the sonnes of Leui. But if the sonnes of Leui betoken by a figure the spirituall Leuits that is all the faithfull whom Christ in the new testament hath made a royall Priesthood euen Kings and Priestes to God his father as your Montanus well expoundeth it then must the offering by a figure signifie the spirituall sacrifice which Christians of all sortes are bound to offer vnto God And in truth as Christ said of Iohn Baptist If you will receiue it this is Elias which was to come meaning that the Prophet did signifie Iohn Baptist by the name of Elias so I may say to you touching the spirituall sacrifices of Christians If you will receiue it this is the cleane offering which should in euery place be offered to the Lord. For the Prophets when they spake of the gospell of Christ and the religious worship of God in spirit and truth which Gentiles conuerted by the preaching of the gospell should serue him in through all the world are wont to describe it by figuratiue spéeches drawen from the externall and carnall worship of God in the ceremonies of the law So they say that there shall be an altar of the Lord in the middes of the land of Egypt that God will accept the burnt offrings and sacrifices of straungers vpon his altar that all the sheeepe of Kedar shall be offefered on it and the rammes of Nebaioth that the Gentiles shall go vp to keepe the feast of tabernacles from yeare to yeare vnto Ierusalem and euery pot in Ierusalem and Iuda shall be holy to the Lord of hostes and all they who sacrifice shall come take of them and seeth therein finally that the offering of Iuda and Ierusalem shal be sweete vnto the Lord as in the dayes of old and in the yeares afore Wherefore as the Prophets doo mention an offering which the Christian Church shall offer vnto God in the time of the gospell so doo they mention burnt offeringes and sacrifices the sheepe of Kedar the rammes of Nebaioth to bee offered on an altar they mention Ierusalem to bee gone vnto the feast of tabernacles to be kept the flesh of beastes sacrificed to be sodde in pottes the Leuites to be the Ministers who shall make the offering in righteousnesse to God But neither doth the Priesthood of the Leuites continue neither is Ierusalem the place to worship God neither are the Iewish feastes the times to doo it nor will he be serued with sacrifice and offering if they be taken properly The Prophets therefore meant by an allegorie as we terme it to shew that all Christians should as Priests and Leuites offer vp them selues and theirs as sacrifices at all times as solemne feastes in all places as in Ierusalem And so the cleane offering whereof the Prophet Malachie saith it shal be offered in euery place vnto the Lord doth signifie not a sacrifice to be made vpon an altar as your Councell would haue it but the spirituall sacrifice which S. Paul exhorteth the faithfull to offer when he willeth men to pray in euery place lifting vp pure handes without wrath douting Hart. The Prophetes speake much in déed of thinges to come not properly and simply but figuratiuely by obscure spéeches and allegories and parables that must be vnderstood otherwise then they are writen as Tertullian noteth But the name of altar is vsed properly for a materiall altar by the Apostle to the Hebrewes saying we haue an altar whereof they haue not power to eate which serue the tabernacle For he putteth them in minde by these wordes that in folowing too much their olde Iewish rites they depriued themselues of an other maner a more excellent sacrifice and meate meaning of the holy altar and Christes owne blessed body offered and eaten there Of which they that continue in the figures of the old law could not be partakers This altar saith Isychius is the altar of Christes body which the Iewes for their incredulitie must not behold And the Gréeke worde as also the Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar Wherefore séeing that we haue a very altar in the proper sense and the name of altar doth import a sacrifice that is offered on it it foloweth that the body of Christ vpon the altar is a very sacrifice in the proper sense And that out of doubt is the cleane offering which the Prophet speaketh of according as the Councell of Trent hath defined Rainoldes And are you out of doubt that by the wordes we haue an altar the Apostle meaneth a materiall altar such as your altars made of stone Hart. What els a very altar Rainoldes And they who haue not power to eate of this altar are the stubberne Iewes who keepe the ceremonies of the law Hart. The Iewes and such prophane men Rainoldes Then your Masse-priestes may and doo vse to â—ate of this altar Hart. They doo And what then Rainoldes Their téeth be good and strong if they eate of an altar that is made of stone Are ye sure that they eate of it Hart. Eate of an altar As though ye knew not that by the altar the sacrifice which is offered vpon the altar is signifyed They eate of Christes body which thereby is meant Rainoldes Is it so Then the worde altar is not taken for a very altar in the proper sense but figuratiuely for the body of Christ the which was sacrificed and offered Neither is it taken for the body of Christ in that respect that Christ is offered in the sacrament in the which sort he is mystically offered as often as the faithfull doo eate of that bread and drinke of that cuppe wherein the breaking of his body and shedding of his blood is represented to them but in that respect that Christ was offered on the crosse in the which sort he was truly offered not often but once to take away the sinnes of many and to sanctifie them for euer who beleeue in him Hart. Nay the auncient Father Isychius expoundeth it
of the bodie of Christ in the sacrament as I shewed which the Iewes must not behold They might behold his body vpon the crosse and did so Rainoldes But the holy Apostle him selfe doth vnderstand it of the bodie of Christ as it was offered on the crosse And that is manifest by the wordes he addeth to shew his meaning touching the Iewes and the altar For saith he the bodies of those beastes whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high Priest for sinne are burnt without the campe Therefore euen Iesus that he might sanctify the people with his owne blood suffered without the gate Which wordes are somewhat darke but they will be plaine if we consider both the thing that the Apostle would proue and the reason by which he proueth it The thing that he would proue is that the Iewes can not be partakers of the fruite of Christes death and the redemption which he purchased with his pretious blood if they still retaine the ceremoniall worship of the law of Moses The reason by which he proueth it is an ordinance of God in a kinde of sacrifices appointed by the law to be offered for sinne which sacrifices shadowed Christ and taught this doctrine For whereas the Priestes who serued the tabernacle in the ceremonies of the law had a part of other sacrifices and offeringes and did eate of them there were certaine beastes commanded to bee offered for sinne in special sort and their blood to be brought into the holy place whose bodies might not be eaten but must be burnt without the campe Now by these sacrifices offered so for sinne our onely soueraine sacrifice Iesus Christ was figured who entred by his blood into the holy place to clense vs from all sinne and his body was crucified without the gate that is the gate of the citie of Ierusalem and they who keepe the Priestly rites of Moses law can not eate of him that by his death they may liue for none shall liue by him who séeke to be saued by the law as it is writen if ye be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing The Apostle therefore exhorting the Hebrewes to stablish their hartes with grace that teacheth them to serue the Lorde in spirit and truth after the doctrine of the gospell not with meates that is to say with the ceremonies of the law a part whereof was the difference betweene vncleane and cleane in meates doth moue them to it with this reason that if they serue the tabernacle and sticke vnto the rites of the Iewish Priesthood their soules shall haue no part of the foode of our sacrifice no fruit of Christs death For as the bodies of those beastes which were offered for sinne and their blood brought into the holy place by the hye Priest might not be eaten by the Priestes but were burnt without the campe so neither may the keepers of the Priestly ceremonies haue life by feeding vpon Christ who to shew this mystery did suffer death without the gate when he shed his blood to clense the people from their sinne And thus it appeereth by the text it selfe that the name of altar betokeneth the sacrifice that is to say Christ crucified not as his death is shewed foorth in the sacrament but as he did suffer death without the gate Whereby you may perceiue first the folly of your Rhemists about the Greeke worde as also the Hebrew that it signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on as though it might not therefore be vsed figuratiuely where yet them selues must needes acknowledge it to be so too Next the weakenes of your reason who thereof doo gather that by the sacrifice which that worde importeth in the Apostle is meant the cleane offering of which the Prophet speaketh For the cleane offering of which the Prophet speaketh is offered in euery place the sacrifice meant by the Apostle in one place onely without the gate Wherefore the name of altar in the epistle to the Hebrewes doth neither signifie a Massing-altar nor proue the sacrifice of Massing-priests Hart. That which you touch as foolishly noted by our Rhemists about the Greeke and Hebrew worde is noted very truly For you can not deny your selfe but that it signifieth properly an altar a materiall altar to sacrifice vpon and not a metaphorical and spirituall altar Whereby as they conclude that we haue not a common table or prophane communion boord to eate meere bread vpon but a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christs body vpon so for proofe hereof they adde that in respect of the saide bodie sacrificed it is also called an altar of the Fathers euen of Gregorie Nazianzene Chrysostome Socrates Augustine and Theophylact And when it is called a table it is in respect of the heauenly foode of Christes body and blood receiued Rainoldes The note of your Rhemists about the Greeke Hebrew word is true I graunt yet foolish too though true in the thing yet foolish in the drift For to the intent that where the Apostle saith we haue an altar it may be thought hee meant not that word spiritually or in a figuratiue sense as we expound it of Christ but materially of a very altar such as is vsed in their Masses they say that the Greeke word as also the Hebrew answering thereunto in the olde testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar Which spéech how dull it is in respect of the point to which they apply it I will make you sée by an example of their owne Our Sauiour in the gospell teacheth of himselfe that he is the true bread which giueth life vnto the world the bread which came down from heauen that whosoeuer eateth of it should not die if any man eate of this bread he shall liue for euer Your Rhemists doo note hereon that the person of Christ incarnate is meant vnder the metaphore of bread and our beleefe in him is signified by eating Wherein they say well But if a man should tell them that the Greeke word as also the Hebrew answering therevnto in the old testament doth properly signifie bread which we eate bodily and not a metaphoricall or spirituall bread were not this as true a speech as their owne Yet how wise to the purpose who is so blinde that séeth not Yea to go no farther then the very word whereof by their Hebrew and Greeke they séeke aduantage them selues vpon that place of Iohn that he saw vnder the altar the soules of them who were killed for the word of God doo affirme expressely that Christ is this altar Christe say they as man no dout is this altar They meane it I hope in a metaphoricall or other figuratiue spéech For they will not make him by transsubstantiation to be an altar properly Yet here it is as
manifest testimonie that their praiers are offered in heauen vnto God by anie other person then by Christ Iesus the hye Priest of our profession the Angell of the couenant the onely mediator betweene God and man And this doth séeme to be that Angel that other Angell of whom it is writen in the Reuelation An other Angell came and stoode before the altar hauing a golden censer and there was much odours giuen vnto him that he should put them into the prayers of all the Saintes on the golden altar which is before the throne and the smoke of the odours which were put into the prayers of the Saintes went vp before God out of the Angels hand For although the Angels be ministring spirites sent forth to minister for the Saints on earth who shall inherite saluation and therefore as they serue to certifie them that their prayers are come vp before God so they might rather offer their prayers to God then the Saintes in heauen who haue no such ministery to serue the Saintes on earth yet because this Angell standing with a censer at the altar of incense to burne perfume before God is set forth as dooing that duetie which the hie Priest did figure in the law and our hye Priest is no created Angel but he by whom the Angels were created euen Christ it foloweth that Christ is meant by the Angell To whom this name is giuen oftentimes in scripture because he is an Angel that is to say a messenger sent by God his father to open his will vnto his seruants and worke their saluation by his couenant And it may be that as God the father hauing said of him Behold I send an Angell doth adde my name is in him to shew that he is God so to distinguish him from the created Angels who are often mentioned in the Reuelation S. Iohn doth cal him an other Angell as differing from the rest not onely in number but also in nature autoritie and dignitie For those things which are writen of the Angell who had the seale of the liuing God who casting fier into the earth the Angels blew their trumpets and powred out the plagues of God who comming downe from heauen clothed with a clowde and the rainebow vpon his head and his face was as the sunne his feete as pillers of fier had in his hand a little booke set his right foote on the sea and his left foote on the lande which are namely written of an other Angell an other mightie Angel as he is also called doo if the circumstances of the text be weighed best agrée to Christ. But whether it be so or no it is certaine that Christ is the Angell who putteth odours of most sweete perfume into the prayers of all the Saintes as our hye Priest and offreth them to God his father to whom he maketh alwayes intercession for vs and is not onely for our prayers but for our selues also an odour of a sweete smelling sauour before him Wherefore sith the scripture manifestly sheweth that our Sauiour Christ offreth the prayers of all the Saintes and not that the Saintes in heauen offer the prayers of the Saintes on earth you might haue bene contented to leaue this honour vnto Christ and haue suffred me to go forward with your reasons about the offering in Malachie For you see how we are fallen from the Pope to Priests from Priests to the Masse from Masse to the Saintes And if I should folow the same veyne on that which you haue saide of Saintes and touch your abuse who confessing that the scriptures giue that name to faithfull and holy persons in earth yet to maintaine your solemne inuocation of dead men do make it proper not to Saintes in heauen but to them whom it shall please the Pope to canonize or deifie as the Master of his sacred ceremonies termeth it wherin notwithstanding your Doctors also teache that the Pope may erre and canonize a wicked person for a Saint so that it may be euen by your owne doctrine that in your Church-seruice you worship them as Saints whose spirits are in hell with the deuill and his Angels I say if I should flit thus from point to point on euery occasion that your speech doth offer we should confound our conference and neuer make an end of the point in question Wherefore let other questions I pray be reserued to their due place touchinge the faith of the Church And now to finish this touching the head of the Church let vs go forward with your Masse-priestes that so we may returne to the Popes supremacy Of the sixe reasons therfore which you alleaged out of D. Allen to proue that the cleane offring which Malachie doth write of is the sacrifice of the Masse and not spirituall sacrifices the first is conuinced clearely to be false and that by the consent of all the same Fathers whom he would proue it by For the word which noteth an outward sacrifice with him with all them is incense of sweete perfumes and odours But incense in the scripture is taken for the praiers of the Saintes as you grant The word then which he doth build the Masse vpon is not alwayes taken properly in scripture for the act of outward sacrifice Hart. But he doth not onely vrge the word to sacrifice for which indéede the Fathers and the Hebrewe text haue incense but the word to offer And if that be alwaies taken properly for the act of outward sacrifice his reason is of force still Rainoldes But the force of his reason doth lye vpon the word to sacrifice not to offer For him selfe granteth that lay men yea women too are said to offer properly and truely when as in the olde law the tithes and first fruites commanded to be giuen to the Leuites and the poore were presented before God so they present bread and wine for the communion or almes for the reliefe of the poore and needy or any earthly giftes and offerings for holy vses as the Fathers shew Wherefore though the word to offer were alwaies taken properly for the act of outward offering it proueth not the offering of your outward sacrifice sith the wise men offered giftes vnto Christ the faithfull Iewes at the altar lay men and women at the Masse and yet nether any of them were Massing-priests nor their offerings Massing-hosts Much lesse doth it proue it as Malachie applyeth it to the offering of incense For as incense signifieth the prayers of the Saintes so to offer incense must be to sacrifice those prayers But the sacrifice of prayers is a spirituall sacrifice Wherfore the word to offer doth not proue your outward sacrifice of the Masse And so the first reason is gone The second foloweth which is no sounder then the former For why doth Allen say that the
Rainoldes Alas And sée you not how giddily the Councell doth bring in that reason that because our nature doth neede outward helpes therefore some things should be pronounced softly some aloude For the very chiefest of the outwarde helpes which God hath ordeined to raise our mindes from earth to heauen is the hearing of his word His word is rehersed in the Epistle the Gospell the Canon and other partes of the Masse The Masse you forbid to be saide in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people so that if all were cryed as loude as Baals seruice the people could not vnderstand it Yet not content with that you will a part of it to bee saide with a soft voice that the poore soules may not as much as heare it Wherefore the reason which your Councell maketh for that Massing-rite is this in effect that because the blindenesse and coldnesse of men doth neede to be lightened and warmed by Gods worde which is rehearsed in the Masse therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voyce that they may not heare it part with a lowder but in a strange toong that although they heare it they may not vnderstand it And was there not a mightie spirit of giddines in the Princes of Trent that made them write so droonkenly Yea with a curse to seale it too Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are vttered with a soft voice is to be condemned or that the Masse ought to be celebrated onely in the vulgar toung And great reason why Rainoldes No dout For as the Iewes when they could not iustifie their wilful withstanding of the Sonne of God agréeed that if any man confessed him to be Christ he should be excommunicated so by like reason your Iudaizers of Rome doo banne and curse vs when they cannot iustifie their impudent customes and corruptions against vs. Hart. The customes are Catholike and religious rites which they do establish with the seueritie of the curse Rainoldes Catholike and religious to kéepe the Saintes of God from hearing of Gods word Catholike and religious to haue the Church-seruice in a tongue which the Church the faithfull people vnderstand not Hart. Yea Catholike and religious if you marke the reasons which they giue thereof For of the one they shew that the Church hath ordeined it of the other that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar toung Rainoldes Not the ancient Fathers Why they are cleere for it and yonger Fathers too Yea Fathers both and children I meane the whole Churches of al nations in the old time of many euen till this day as namely of the Syrians Armenians Slauonians Moscouites and Ethiopians Hart. What so euer Churches or Fathers doo or haue doon it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Trent And they being Bishops and Pastours of the Church might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by your owne confessions Rainoldes They might But our confessions withall should haue taught them that as they may prouide for things to be doon with comelines and in order so their rites and ceremonies must be all to edifie Which the Trent-fathers obserued not in this rite of hauing the seruice in a straunge tongue as themselues acknowlege For they write expressely that although the Masse containe great instruction of the faithful people yet the Fathers haue not thought it expedient that it should be soong or said euerie where in the vulgar tongue Whereof this is the meaning to open it in plainer words that the corrupt custome of the Church of Rome praying and reading the scriptures in a straunge tongue in deede doth not edifie yet must stand for policie to keepe their Churches credit For if they should yéeld that they haue erred in one thing men would dout perhaps that they might erre in more And this doo they farther bewray by the other point of vttering the words of consecration secretly that the faithfull may not heare them For in saying that the Church hath ordeined that rite they doo closely graunt that Christ ordeined it not Nay their owne men teach that the example of Christ and the order of his Apostles with the Fathers too is manifest against it Beside that in calling it a rite of the Church of Rome they signifie that other Churches do not vse it no not the Greeke Church And yet against the practise of Churches of Fathers of Apostles and of Christ they say that a dumbe shew which crept in by custome was ordeined by our holy mother the Church and as men resolued to wallow in their owne vomit they curse him whosoeuer he be that shall condemne it Hart. Although Christ we grant did vtter the words of consecration openly and the Apostles and Fathers and other Churches also haue kept the same rite yet the Church of Rome is not to be condemned for taking order to the contrarie For rites may be changed as it shall séeme best to them who gouerne the Church and there was great reason why they should change this to weete least those words so holy and sacred should grow into contempt whiles all in a maner knowing them through common vse would sing them in the streetes and other places not conuenient In the which respect perhaps they thought good also that the Masse and Mattins and all the Church-seruice should rather be in Latin then in the vulgar tongue For of familiar vse there groweth contempt and men are wont to wonder at things which they know not thing◠common are despised Rainoldes A great ouersight of our Sauiour Christ who willed his Apostles to speake that in the light which he had told them in darknes and what they heard in the eare that to preach on the howses For men would despise his gospel if they knew it as they doo meate who haue it And what meant S. Paule to disclose the words of consecration to the Corinthians Yea in their vulgar tongue too And that with instruction to shew foorth th◠Lords death vntill he came as oft as they receiued the sacrament Did he go about to bring the words of consecration and death of Christ into contempt Or was not Innocentius the Pope borne yet of whom he might haue learned that they must be vttered not onely in a strange tongue but also closely and in silence least men if they heare them do know them through vse and sing them in the streetes But wil you sée Your Fathers of the Trent-councel were ouershot a litle when they ordeined that Pastours and all who haue cure of soules should often times expound by them selues or by others somewhat of those things which are read in the Masse
forhead Hart. But Polycrates signified a miter by that plate after a figure of spéech wherein a part is vsed to signifie the whole Rainoldes Nay if you come to figures it is more likely that Polycrates in saying S. Iohn was a Priest that did beare the plate meant by an allusion to the lawe of Moses that he entred as it were into the sanctuarie with prerogatiue and had the very mysteries of God reueled to him Whereto S. Ierom séemeth somewhat to incline who translating the same of Polycrates touching Iohn saith that hee was a high Priest bearing the plate of gold vpon his head For if he had vsed to beare a plate of gold in déede vpon his forhead sure when Peter saide siluer and gold haue I none to the creple who desired an almes of Peter and him that plate would not haue saued his forhead from blushing Neither is it nothing that Polycrates mentioned the plate and not a miter sith other of the Iewish Priests did weare miters none but th◠high Priest the plate Howbeit if the worde were meant as you would haue it and S. Iohn had worne a miter like to Aaron yet his example proueth not that all Apostles much lesse that all Bishops wore it Nay the speciall note thereof in S. Iohn doth rather proue the contrarie as when we reade that Iohn Baptist had his garment of camels heare and a girdle of skin we gather that all preachers wore not such apparell Hart. But infulae that is a Priestly attire of the head which Tertullian speaketh of was common to them all and the miter séemeth to bee the same with vs that infulae with him Rainoldes I graunt that the attire which Tertullian speaketh of doth touch your miter néerer but it doth not proue it For infulae were miters which the heathnish Priests as namely the Priestes of Ceres and Apollo did weare in their solemnities Of the which ceremonie Tertullian deriuing a prouerbiall phrase after the maner of his style doth say touching Christians who refuse to be counted Priests that they lay downe the miters In déede it is likely the miters of your Bishops came from that heathnish rite although they draw some what from the Iewish custome as Wolfgangus Lazius your friend hath well obserued But it is neither true nor fit for you to hold that it was a miter worne by Christian Priests which Tertullian meant Not fit for you to hold least all Priests be proued to haue as good right to the miter as your Bishops which doctrine they will neuer account of as catholike Not true because your Bishoply miters were not vsed in many hundred yeres after Tertullian Hart. No Is it not writen in the donation of Constantine that when he offered Pope Siluester a golden crown beset with gemmes the Pope refused it and onely tooke a white miter Rainoldes What tell you me againe of that foolish forgery Which yet doth make the first originall of the miter younger then Tertullian But the true recordes and monuments of antiquitie doo shew that it was not bredde a greate while after For Amalarius Fortunatus and Rabanus Maurus and Walafridus Strabo who liued aboue eight hundred yeares after Christ and wrote of the vestiments which Bishops wore in their dayes make no mention of it And Alcuinus the Maister of Charles the great who liued and wrote not long before them treating of Priestly vestiments and therein of the miter of the Iewish Priests we haue not saith he such a vestiment in the Church of Rome or in our countries Yea Iuo Carnotensis who liued thrée hundred yeares after Alcuinus doth shew that in his daies it was not yet come in and with expresse mention of the plate of golde he saith that no Priests of the new Testament doo weare it Wherefore the first and highest of your Massing-vestiments is nether confirmed by the plate in Eusebius nor by the miters in Tertullian The next is the stole whereof you haue no better proofe in S. Ambrose For that which he mentioneth was either a towell as it may séeme or a napkin wherein his brother Satyrus caused the sacrament to be wrapped vp and laid it to his necke At least séeing Satyrus was nether Priest nor perfit Christian what shew haue you of likelihood that it was a Massing-vestiment Hart. S. Ambrose calleth it orarium And orarium is vsed in the Councell of Toledo for the same that stola that is a stole as we call it Rainoldes But if S. Ambrose meant a stole by orarium because the Councell meant so then stol◠in the later writers of those matters must be a womans garment because it is so in Isidore who liued néerer to them then did S. Ambrose to the Councell And as for that Councell and the other of Braga no marueile if the stole be mentioned in them For they were kept at that time when rites did steale in upon religion verie fast Though nether was it then halfe setled in the Masse yet as by a later Councell of Braga may be gathered Howbeit if it had béene your proofe faileth still For you may not say that because a Spanish Councel speaketh of it therfore the Church had it by tradition of the Apostles Unlesse you will say also that your shauen crownes ought to be great circles about the whole head by the tradition of the Apostles and not such little circles on the toppe of the head onely as now a daies are made because a Spanish Councell condemneth the shauing of those little circles as a rite of heretikes and alloweth none but great ones So farre of the stole There foloweth the albe For which the Deacons albe so named in the Councell of Carthage maketh nothing For though the name of albe be deriued from alba by which word the Councell doth note a white garment as it were a surplisse forbidding the Deacōs to weare it all the seruice time yet the thing differeth from your Massing-albe which is peculiar to Priests as the Canonists also declare on the same worde of the Councell of Carthage Which difference remoueth your proofe out of Chrysostome touching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too For what soeuer kind of garment that were it was common to the Deacons not proper to the Priests and therefore not your Massing-albe Hitherto the holy robe in Eusebius that reached downe to the feete should be referred by their iudgement who compare the garments of Aaron with yours But Stapleton who found that holy robe in Eusebius might haue found withall an other meaning of it by the wordes folowing For he whose oration Eusebius doth report telleth Bishops that they are clad with the holy robe that reached downe to the feete and with the heauenly crowne of glorie and with the vnction of God and
would haue me thinkes no ceremonies at all for you saide that the worship of God amongst Christians is spirituall meerely Rainoldes I spake in comparison of the Iewish worship or rather Christ not I. For they are his wordes that God will be worshipped now in spirit and truth Which must néedes be meant of meere spirituall worship sith the reason folowing that God is a spirit doth shew that the Iewes did worship him in spirit too And yet is that spoken in comparison as I saide For Christ him selfe ordeined two principall ceremonies which we call the sacraments his Supper and his Baptisme And the Church-assemblies which are helpes most necessarie for vs to learne and practise that spirituall worship must haue their time when their place where their maner how things to be directed with coomelinesse and order in rites fit to edifie But these are few in number and cléere in signification So few that they are nothing in comparison of the Iewish so cléere that they do liuely represent Christ and are no darke shadowes Now whether that your Popish ceremonies haue kept this fewnes and cléerenes Hart. Perhaps you meane because we haue seuen sacraments and not two onely But the Fathers as namely S. Austin though your men alleage him to the contrary doo name other sacraments beside the Lordes Supper as you call it and Baptisme Rainoldes But S. Austin nameth not your seuen sacraments as you may see by his Confession Hart. Yet he nameth more then your two sacraments And the rest of ours are proued by other Fathers Whereupon the Councell of Trent hath defined that there are seuen sacraments of the new law neither more nor fewer they all are sacraments truly and properly Rainoldes The Fathers doo commonly vse the word sacrament for a mystery or signe of a holy thing And so you may proue seuen and twentie sacraments by them as well as seuen Which is manifest by S. Austin whom you pretend herein most For as he giueth the name of sacrament to mariage to the ordering of ministers to laying on of hands and reconciâ—â—ng of the repentant so he giueth it to Easter and to the Lords day to the sanctifying and instructing of nouices in the faith the feeding the signing the catechizing of them the making of prayers the singing of Psalmes and so forth to other holy rites and actions But as the worde sacrament is taken in a straiter signification to note the visible signes inistuted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithfull which is the sense of it both with you and vs when we speake of sacraments so doth he name those two as principall ones by an excellencie and when there issued blood and water out of Christes side these are the two sacraments saith he of the Church meaning the Lordes supper by blood by water baptisme Yea the Schoolemen them selues who were the first autours that did raise them vp to the precise number of seuen no more nor fewer for you â—â—nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoeuer before a thousand yeares after Christ but the Schoolemen them selues haue shewed that the seuen are not all sacraments if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straitly For neither can mariage so be of the number as Durand proueth well neither confirmation the chrisme of oyle and balme as Bonauenture teacheth And to be short their captaine Alexander of Ales doth auouch expressely that there are onely two principal sacraments which Christ himselfe did institute so that by his confession as we speake of sacraments there are two only But my meaning was not to blame you for seuen I spake of all your ceremonies which are I may say boldly seuentie times seuen Which whether that they be so few and so cléere in comparison of the Iewish as I haue declared and you confesse that Christian ceremonies should be let the learned iudge by comparing of your Church-bookes chiefly the Ceremoniall Pontificall and Missall with the bookes of Moses Let the vnlearned gesse by the store and straungenesse of sacrificing vestiments whereof their common Priests had thrée yours haue sixe their high Priest had eight your Bishops haue fiftéene at least and some sixtéene beside the Popes prerogatiue-robes And so to leaue this matter to their consideration your owne confession yeldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachie For if the spiritual worshipping of God wherewith the Iewes did serue him had ceremonies in number more in signification darker then it hath amongst the Gentiles this kinde of seruing him with fewer ceremonies cléerer is proper to the Gentils might succeede that which was amongst the Iewes Wherefore D. Allens third fourth reasons whereby he would proue that the offering spokeÌ„ of in Malachie the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Masse and not spirituall sacrifices can take no holde against vs. No more then ours could take against you of the contrarie if we should conclude that it must betoken a spirituall worship not outward offeringes on an altar because outward offeringes are common to the Iewes with vs and this is proper to the Gentiles and this should succéede the Iewish worship of God and come in steede of it which no outward offeringes and sacrifices can doo sith they are coopled alwayes to Gods spirituall worship Would you allow these reasons Hart. They are not like to D. Allens But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt For in the iudgement chiefly of heretikes our workes are defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull but that Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices that it cannot be polluted any way by vs or by the worst Priests For here in our testament they can not choose all the best to them selues and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble the lame and the sicke as before in the old because there is now one sacrifice so appointed that it can not be changed so cleane that no worke of ours can distaine it Rainoldes And thinke you M. Hart that the workes of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of because they are defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull Thinke you thus in déede Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion which God graunt you doo with heretikes as you terme vs. For if our workes be defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull chiefly as heretikes iudge then are men iustified by faith not by workes If our workes bee defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull then fulfill we not the law of God perfitly much lesse super-erogate If our works be defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull then are they meritorious of euerlasting death but euerlasting life
Gregories Masse did aime at that Which is not so For the principall point thereof is the sacrifice euen the soueraine sacrifice that is our Sauiour Christ offered to God his father And sith this is that which the Canon speaketh of and S. Gregorie offered and the Masse importeth with vs whom you call Masse-priests it foloweth that S. Gregorie celebrated the sacrifice of the Masse as we doo and therefore was a Masse-priest not a Minister of the Communion Rainoldes Then the men women of Rome were Masse-priestes too in S. Gregories time and celebrated the sacrifice of the Masse as you doo For the sacrifice which he offered and the Canon speaketh of is the bread and wine offered by the men and women for the Communion and the sacrifice of prayse which they did offer all to God Hart. Nay it is the very body and blood of Christ. Rainoldes The wordes of the Canon are plaine to the contrarie For it desireth God to accept and blesse their offering that it may be made the body and blood of Christ to thâ—m It was not the body and blood of Christ therefore but very bread and wine which the faithfull people offered to be â—â—nctified to the vse of the Communion Hart. It was bread and wine before consecration as it is declared by those wordes of the Canon But after consecration the Canon saith of it Hostiam puram hostiam sanctam hostiam immaculatam that is the pure holy and vndefiled host Rainoldes But vpon those wordes it foloweth in the Canon the holy bread of eternall life and the cuppe of saluation Wherefore the bread and the cuppe that is the wine though holy now and sanctified to be the bread of life and cup of saluation that is the body and blood of Christ in a mystery but the bread and wine are the pure holy and vndefiled sacrifice or host as you terme it not onely before but after consecration too Hart. Nay the reall body and blood of Christ are meant by the bread and the cuppe in a figuratiue spéech and so Christ himselfe is the pure holy and vndefiled host Rainoldes Where a figuratiue speech is vsed in scripture you will none of it Here where your Canon vseth none you fansy it For it foloweth straight touching that bread and that cuppe vpon the which thinges vouchsafe o Lord to looke downe with a mercifull cheerefull countenance and to accept them as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the offerings of thy righteous seruant Abel So that if Christ him selfe were meant really by the bread and the cuppe in a figuratiue spéech then the Priest desireth God to looke on Christ with a mercifull and cheerefull countenance and to accept of him at the Priests request as he did accept the giftes which Abel offered There hath beene heretofore a saying amongst you which I hope you like not that a Priest is the creator of his creator But by this meanes the Priest is lifted higher to bee the mediator of his mediator And so will you vouch in earnest of Masse-priests that which Tertullian did iest at in the Heathens man must be merciful vnto God now vnlesse it please the Priest Christ shall not finde fauour in his fathers sight Hart. The prayer of the Priest that God will looke vpon his offrings and accept them hath a very good meaning whereof I doo not dout But the former wordes touching the hoste must néedes betoken Christ. For how can the name of a pure holy and vndefiled hoste be geuen to the bread and wine Rainoldes How are they called pure or vndefiled giftes offeringes and sacrifices in the Canon it selfe before consecration Hart. They may be called pure by acceptation there as your selfe expounded Which the Canon seemeth to imports also in that it prayeth God to accept them and blesse them Rainoldes Euen so they may be called here a pure holy and vndefiled sacrifice For the Canon also likewise prayeth God to accept them in expresse termes and in effect to blesse them Whereof it hath a farther and plainer proofe too in that it saith they offer to God that pure sacrifice the bread of life and cup of saluation of his giftes For in saying that they offer it of the giftes of God it sheweth that the very bread and wine is meant Which the people being vsed then to offer as now we offer mony the rest there of was geuen after to the poore a part was taken first for the vse of the communicants that they might be partakers of the bread of life and cuppe of saluation that is the holy sacrament of the body and blood of Christ. Hart. I know that the name of sacrifice is giuen to the peoples offerings and other things often But I am perswaded that by the pure holy and vndefiled sacrifice S. Gregorie meant Christ and so did offer him vp to God his Father in the Masse as we doo Which I thinke the rather because they were Masse-priests as our Apologie sheweth who liued in the function of Priesthood before him For the holy Councell of Nice knew none but such offerers or sacrificing that is Massing-priests S. Cyprian acknowledgeth the Priests of his time to haue offered or sacrificed yea euen in prisons Hee was a Masse-priest that S. Austin sent to doo sacrifice in a house infested with euil spirits They were Masse-priests of whom Eusebius writeth that they pacified the diuine maiestie with vnbloody sacrifices and mysticall consecrations The dignitie of Priesthood set forth in the worke of the same title by S. Chrysostome is specially commended there for the power of dooing the vnbloody sacrifice vpon the altar To be short he and all the other Fathers both Gréeke and Latin were Masse-priests none being euer made but for that purpose principally S. Ambrose testifying that to take the order of Priesthood which he calleth with the Apostle Imposition of hands is to receiue authoritie to offer sacrifice to God in our Lordes steede Rainoldes These testimonies M. Hart of Greeke and Latin Fathers with the rest quoted by your Apologie-writer either at Doway or at Rhemes doo some of them mention offering and not sacrificing some speake of sacrificing but not the sacrificing of Christ. Betweene the which pointes what difference there is for the one himselfe is a sufficient witnesse in that he declareth that sundry things are offered which are not sacrificed for the other they who shew that the faithfull did offer sundry sacrifices as namely of almes of praise of them selues euen at the celebration of the Lords supper But admit they meant by offering and sacrificing the sacrificing of Christ as some of them did yet nether was their sacrificing that which your Massing is nor they who sacrificed Masse-priests For you will haue the sacrifice offered in the Masse to be a very soueraine
doctrine swéete of Christ their master fedde By preaching first by wryting then to nations all if spred And these bookes hath the holy Ghost set foorth for mortall wights That we in course of faith and life might folow them as lights Auant all ye who brain-sick toies and fansies vaine defend Who on humane traditions and Fathers sawes depend The holy written word of God doth shew the perfit way Whereby from death to life arise from curse to blisse we may 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine TO warfare euery one dooth goe that serueth Christ in field To warfare all their names are billed who doo Gods armour wéelde And doost thou man in warfare serue and art thou frée from blowes And may no dart thy body pearce assaulted by the foes The citie of Ierusalem with holy Church was dight That holy Church kept not her course at all assaies aright Corinthus godly was and pure Philippi shone full bright The faith of Thessalonians was spred in glorious plight Corinthus pure is stayned now Philippi lyes defaced Your praise O Thessalonians is by the Turke disgraced And thou O Rome the Qâ—éene of pride which swell'st on mountaines seuen Thy hart is pearst with deadly wound thou fall'st to hell from heauen While that the Church doth make abode on earth in seats of clay Am I deceiued or may she féele the dint of errours sway 3 The holy scripture is of greater autoritie then the Church THe godlesse rowt inflam'd with lust of holding scepter hie Dooth lift the stately throne of Rome vnto the golden skie Unto the skie that pride were â—inall nay faâ—re aboue the skie Subduing Christ his scepter great to Romish royaltie Men say that Giants did attempt the heauenly powers to quell What doo they raise new warres againe from grisly gulfe of hell The holy church may for it selfe claime worthy gifts of right T is great I graunt but lesse I trust then is the Lord of might Let mortall things geue place to God let men to Christ accord The wife to man the earth to heauen the subiect to the Lord. ALthough I am not ignorant right worshipfull audience that Cato the graue Censour reprooued a certaine Roman who taking vpon him to write a storie in Greeke had rather craue pardon of his fault in dooing it then kéepe himselfe cléere from committing that fault yet so it hath hapned to me at this present yelding shal I say thereto or refusing it surely some what against my will but so it hath hapned that I who could not choose but commit a faut am forced to request you to pardon my faut For both the weakenes of my voice because it is not able to fill the largenesse of this place wil discontent perhaps them who heare me not and the vnripenesse of my abilitiâ— which I feare me will not answere the solemnitie of this assemblie in handling those things that are to be debated will of likelihoode be reproued by them who heare me How much the more earnestly I am to request by word you that heare me by will the rest who heare me not that either you wil be no Censours at all or els be more fauourable Censours then Cato least either you iudge me to haue dealt vnwisely who did not kéepe my selfe from fault or impudent who first commit it and then request you not to blame it Neither do I dout but I shal finde defense for the weakenes of my voice in your frendly curtesiâ— before whom I speake for the vnripenes of my abilitie in the goodnes of the cause which I haue to speake off For that your curtesie will condemne me of that fault which I could not eschew I néede not to feare And the goodnes of the cause hath in it such euident and cléere light of trueth that I doo not dout it will defend it selfe though no man pleade for it Wherein I hope also that you euen your selues either doo already or will agrée with me if you shall heare me open as briefly as I may the meaning of the thrée Conclusions that I hâ—ld the perfection of the scripture the infirmitie of the Church the autoritie of them both For as for the praise and commendation of Diuinitie whereof the beginning is from heauen the maiestie diuine the office to be an instrument of saluation to mankinde which was ordeyned by God the father reueled by Iesus Christ registred in writing by the holy Ghost I cannot speake thereof as I would according to the woorthines of the thing as I may according to my power I ought not In the one I hope you approue my good will in the other I beséech you take my iudgement in good part For I doâ— not say by way of amplification colourably that I refraine therefore from the praising of it because my woundering at it dooth dasell like the brightnesse of the sun-beames the eyes of my minde as Tully faineth of Caesar that the people shewed not their good will toward him by ioyful clapping of their hands because that they being amazed with woondring at him could not stirre themselues But as the prophet Esay witnesseth of God that when he behelde his maiestie he was dismaied because he was a man of polluted lips vnworthie to behold the king and Lord of hostes so may I protesâ— from my hart in trueth that when I consider the highnes of Gods worde I holde my peace as amazed because I am a man of polluted lips vnfitte to touch the noblenesse of a thing so woorthie Wherefore I willingly leaue these Iuy-garlands to be hanged vp by them who vent the wine of Philosophie Physike and Lawe which artes very profitable but for the life that fadeth excellent but humaine commendable but transitorie beutifull but brittle I dout not but already the learning and eloquence of men well séene therein hath made you wel to like of in this exercise of disputations Now I take a greater enterprise in hand for the valour of the thing which I am to deale with though nether with better witte nor deeper iudgement then they whom I folow in the course of dealing Liuie reporteth that Annibal hauing purposed to fightâ—with the Romans did cause certaine couples of captiues to fight one with an other hand to hand before he set his souldiers in battaile aray that his Carthaginians might by that pastime of the captiues combat addresse them selues with better consideration and courage to the serious and set battaile In like sorte there haue béene brought before you gentle audience to the combat sundrie opinions of sundrie artes as it were cooples of captiues which whether they liue or dye be so or not so it skilleth not greatly the state of the realme is not ventured vpon it But now from that sporting conflict of light matters there cometh to the battaile for earnest tryall of thinges of weight host against host truth against falshood religion against errour wherein if we swarue out
of the right way it is the death not of captiues but of Carthaginians not opinions of men but the truth of God is hazarded not life not health not wealth and possessions but the inheritance of heauen and saluation cometh into controuersie Lend me therefore I pray you the presence of your mindes and patience of your eares to that which shall be spoken remembring that we haue not toyes as on a stage but serious thinges in hand And because we handle the matters of the Lord I pray him to sanctifie with his holy spirit our tongues and your eares and the mindes of all that neither we dispute to any other end then to bring foorth the truth into light by conference of reasons neither you in hearing haue any other minde then to beléeue the truth when it shal be brought foorth and proued To beginne therefore with the first Conclusion and so runne ouer the rest briefly the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation God the father of eternall goodnes and mercy did choose of his frée and singular fauour before the foundations of the world were laide a great number of men whom he would indue with euerlasting life and make them heires of heauenly glory Now that the chosen might come to this inheritance they were to be made the children of God by adoption through Iesus Christ. For this hath euer béene the onely way to saluation In consideration whereof the holy ghost speaking of the company of such as God hath chosen termeth them sometime the children of God by adoption not by nature yet felow heires with Christ sometime the wife of the Lambe which is indowed with al the wealth of her husband some time the body of Christ by the power and vertue of whom as of a head they are gouerned and moued sometime the citizens of heauen appointed to bee inhabitants of the new Ierusalem finally Christ him selfe to omit the rest doth call them his Church which the gates of hell shall not preuaile against This Church then euen the company of the elect and chosen the children of God the wife of the Lambe the body of Christ the citizens of heauen that is to say the holy Catholike Church as it is chosen and ordained by God to life euerlasting so hath it béene alwayes taught by his worde the way of saluation whereby it might come to the possession of that life His word being vttered in old time sundry wayes was published at length in writing And so it came to passe that the holy writinges of God did teach the Church such thinges as must be knowne for the obteining of saluation For who could reueale the way to obtaine the inheritance of the kingdom of God but God alone And he reueled it to his Church as first without writing in such sort as séemed best to his wisdome so afterwarde in writing by the hand of his seruants inspired with the holy Ghost without writing to Adam and from Adams time till Moses in writing to Moses and from Moses forwarde till the ende of the world Wherfore in these writings giuen out by the holy Ghost and penned by the seruants of God which writings S. Paul calleth scripture by an excellencie as you would say the writings which surpasse all others the way of saluation whereby wee come to heauen the light of our soules which shineth in this worlds darkenesse the foode of life which nourisheth vs to grow in Christ is deliuered to the Church For cléerer proofe whereof let vs diuide the Church into the olde and the new the olde before Christ the new since Christ was borne The Prophets taught the old Church the way of saluation the Apostles with the Prophets together teach the new more plenteously and fully The doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles is comprised in the holy scripture The scripture therefore teacheth the Church whatsoeuer is behoofefull to saluation For the Church is the company of the elect and chosen Now they who are elect are of the houshold of God and they of his houshold are built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes Iesus Christ himselfe being the chiefe corner stone But this foundation of the Apostles and Prophets is the doctrine touching Christ which they preached to the Church And that doctrine which they preached is enrolled in scripture Wherefore the scripture teacheth the Church all thinges that for saluation are requisite to be knowne Moses to beginne with the first of the Prophets hauing published the law of God to the Israelites Giue eare saith he O Israel to the ordinances which I teach Ye shall not adde to the worde which I command you nor shall you take from it but whatsoeuer I command you that shall ye obserue to doo that ye may keepe the commandements of the Lord your God Now the Israelites were to labour for the obtaining of saluation But they might do nothing which was not prescribed by the law of God Therefore the writen law of God did deliuer whatsoeuer was needfull for the saluation of the Israelites And there is no dout but the Israelites were the Church The law then did teach whatsoeuer was needfull for the saluation of the Church The Prophets who folowed were expounders of the law that as they were inspired with the same spirit by which Moses wrote so they neither added any thing to his law nor tooke from it onely they vnfolded it to the edifying of the Church as it séemed best to the holy ghost I let passe Dauid in whom there are not many mo Psalmes then there are testimonies of the sufficiency of the law Esay examineth both the faith and life of the Priestes and people by the law and testimonie Idolaters are condemned by the Lord in Ieremie for dooing in their sacrifices thinges which he commanded not In Malachie the last Prophet God willeth his people to remember the law of Moses that he as a schoolemaister may leade them to Christ whose forerunner should be Elias But these thinges could not haue beene spoken by God or the seruants of God vnlesse the law of Moses had shewed the whole and perfit way of saluation The law of Moses therefore did wholy and perfitly instruâ—â— the Church therein Which if the law of Moses did performe alone much more all the Prophets together with Moses How may it then be douted but the olde Church was taught out of the scriptures the way of saluation wholly and perfitly S. Iohn to passe ouer from the Prophets to the Apostles after that the sunne of righteousnesse was risen not to abolish the law but to fulfill it and to bring a brighter and cléerer light into the worlde declareth in the gospell how Iesus Christ our Sauiour doing the office of our soueraine Prophet Priest and King accomplished our saluation by teaching by dying by rising from the dead Our saluation then is fully wrought by Christ. But
is it fully written by S. Iohn Let vs heare him selfe speake These things saith he are writen that ye may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee may haue life through his name In which wordes the summe and end of the gospell is set downe by Iohn the summe that we may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the Christ that is the soueraine Priest Prophet and King the Sauiour of men the end that we beleeuing in Christ the sonne of God may through him haue life euen that which alone is called life rightly to wit eternall life Which things being so as the Euangelist him selfe teacheth it must néedes be granted that those things which are writen in the gospell are sufficient for vs both to the way of life and to life As much then as sufficeth to faith and saluation so much is writen in the gospell For if the things which are writen had not béene sufficient to faith and saluation there were mo thing◠which might haue bene writen so many as the world could not haue conteined But these were omitted by the spirit of God because the other were enough for his purpose For he giueth this reason why mo were not writen these things are writen that yee may beleeue and in beleeuing may haue life There is contained therefore in S. Iohns gospell so much as is sufficient to faith and saluation Then if S. Iohns gospell alone haue sufficient how plentifully hath Christ prouided for his Church as a most bountifull Lord for his houshold to which he hath giuen so many Apostles and Euangelists witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine Wherefore the scripture doth not onely teach the Church but also amply and plentifully teach it all things behoofull to saluation For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same wherewith as with meate the seruants of God are fedde to life eternall yet as the ages of the seruants differ and in ages different their cases differ too so was it méete there should be sundry sortes and waies to diuide that meate and as it were to season it for ech one his part as it might best agrée with him Whereof that we might haue a true liuely paterne set foorth by Christs owne spirit in the word of life for the féeding of the faithfull therefore hée gaue sundry woorkemen so to terme them and writers of his faith that although they deliuered all the same foode yet they did not dresse it all in one sort And so it cometh to passe that in those writers of the faith of Christ both the vnitie of doctrine in the diuersitie of deliuering yeldeth a swéete tast in the spirituall mouth of the godly minde and the manifold vse ministreth holesome nourishment to euery mans stomake the euident plainnesse in the groundes of faith maketh that euen they who are of deintiest mouthes can not refuse it for the toughnes and the hidden wisedome in the secretes of scripture both trieth the strongest and satisfieth them who are sharpest set and to say that in a word which no wordes can expresse enough the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithfull to procure them a blessednes that is exceeding great and infinite Wherefore it is a thing so cléere and so sure that those secretaries of the holy Ghost ioyned togither doo open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoofefull to saluation that he who knoweth it not may be iustly counted ignorant hée who acknowledgeth it not lewde hée who dissembleth it vnthankfull hée who denieth it more then wicked For what can there be in cléerenesse more euident or in peise more weightie or in strength more sound or in truth more certaine then that generall principle which S. Paul deliuereth not as Moses of the law not as Iohn of the gospell but of the whole scripture and holy writt to Timothee The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may bee furnished throughly furnished to euery good worke Thus if you demaund of what autoritie scripture is it came from God by inspiration if you regard what vse it hath it teacheth improueth correcteth instructeth if you would sée to what end it is that the man of God may be furnished Our dutie in Christ Iesus is faith woorking by loue Faith embraceth sound doctrine loue requireth a godly life Soundnes of doctrine is held if true things be taught and false refuted Godlines of life is kept if we fly from euill and folow good But the holy scripture teacheth the truth improueth errour correcteth iniquitie instructeth to righteousnes as it appéereth by the Apostles wordes Therefore it setteth foorth a mans whole dutie in Christ Iesus that is as I suppose so much as sufficeth to saluation For it is not onely profitable to these things as some doo mince the matter but sufficient too in so much that it is able to make a man wise to saluation through faith and to furnish him Yea to furnish what maner of man the man of God that is the Lordes interpreter the Minister of the worde the teacher of the Church the Pastour of the flocke euen Timothee himselfe much more the flock of the faithfull in whom so great furniture of wisdome is not necessary Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying that the man of God may be furnished addeth to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our mindes and memories with as many reasons as he vseth wordes that the man of God may be furnished throughly furnished to euerie good worke Whereupon it foloweth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for either to soundnes and sinceritie of faith or to integritie and godlines of life that is to mans perfection and the way of saluation which the scripture geuen by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithfull seruantes of Christ. It is the iudgement therefore of the holy Ghost whose sentence I defend as I am bound by duetie that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation Here if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers though to what purpose sith ye haue heard the Father of Fathers notwithstanding if any would heare the scholers iudgement when he hath heard the masters he shall heare the iudgement not of this or that man of whom he might dout but of the whole Church and of all the Saints For they with one agréement and generall consent haue termed the bookes of scripture Canonicall of the word Canon which signifieth a rule because they containe a worthy rule and squire of religion faith and godlines according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture allowed by Andradius himselfe the chiefest patrone of the Popish faith hath béene
but earthly not spirituall but like the kingdomes of this world presently to come not after to be looked for proper to Israel not common to all nations by vertue of the promises Yea that more is when they had receiued the holy Ghost in greater measure from heauen Peter went not rightly to the truth of the Gospell Iohn would haue worshipped an Angell once or twise the Apostles brethren who were in Iudaea thought that the word of God was not to be preached to the Gentiles But yet al these errours of the Apostles were curable For both they returned to Christ when he was risen againe from death to life and first them selues acknowledged then they taught others the state of his kingdome and Peter being reproued by Paul did yeeld vnto him and Iohn stayed himselfe vpon the Angels admonition and the Apostles with the brethren being taught the truth were glad that God had graunted to the Gentiles also repentance vnto life Wherein that is performed which was promised by Christ when Peter hauing made that worthy profession of faith he said vnto him Thou art Peter and on this stone will I build my church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it The gates of hell shal not preuaile against the church they shall not preuaile They shall bée of strength then against the Church but they shall not preuaile by strength For the elect and chosen of God may take a fall but fall a way they can not Perhaps they build stubble but they build on the foundation And the foundation is Christ Iesus from whom they shall neuer be plucked away For as Fabius saith in Liuie that right doth faint often as being not able well to proue the truth but it neuer dyeth so men who cleaue to right and truth are oft assaulted but they are neuer conquered The sheepe of Christ may go astray in the wildernes but they can not perish The prodigall sonne may go away from his father but he shall come againe The faith of Peter him selfe did sowne as you would say but it failed not Hée was turned away a while from the Lord whom he denied too but he was turned againe vnto him To conclude the faithfull are sorely pressed often by many enemies and mightie but they shall neuer be suppressed Often haue they assaulted mee from my youth vp may Israel now say often haue they assaulted mee from my youth vp but they haue not preuailed against me It is certaine therefore that the elect and chosen though they be made the children of God by adoption yet are subiect to errour Howbeit of the other side they are subiect so that they are freed from the gilt of errour by Christ and are accepted as holy of God because they are in part holy I am blacke ô yee daughters of Ierusalem saith the spowse yet I am comely as the tentes of Kedar yet as the hangings of Salomon Yea farther the bridegrome saith that shee is faire nay that is more the Fairest but the fairest of wemen not simply the fairest as Bernard well noteth but in comparison of wemen but in respect of earthly creatures To teach the Church thereby least shée waxe proude that as long as she liueth in the tabernacle of the body she goeth on towardes but is not yet come to the perfection of fairenes and therefore that she is not I vse S. Bernardes wordes faire altogither though shee be therefore commended for her fairenesse because shee walketh after the spirit not after the flesh But here peraduenture some man will obiect an argument which Papists are euer hammering on that the holy Ghost is promised and giuen by Christ to the elect and the holy Ghost is the Ghost or spirit of holines and truth whereof it may seeme to be well gathered that they can neither erre in doctrine nor in maners To this if it be obiected thus I answere that the holy Ghost hath filled with the vnmeasurable abundance of his grace none but Christ onely of whose fulnes we all receiue Christ in déed hath giuen the holy ghost to the elect but he hath giuen it by measure as I may say with Iohn not to this effect that they may not erre but that they may not erre to death For it is a sentence not onely proued by Philosophers but also knowen to simple men by common experience that whatsoeuer thing is receiued of an other it is receiued according to the capacitie of that which receiueth it We receiue therefore the gifts of the holy Ghost according to the simple capacitie of mans weakenesse not to the maiestie of Gods spirit There is water enough in the maine sea to quench the raging flames that waste a whole towne but a small dish can not containe enough to asswage the fier that burketh one house Men who are begotten in the image and likenes of their father Adam doo flame burne as the Prophet speaketh Though they be borne anew of water and of the spirit yet the water of the spirit dâ—â—th not quite put out all sparkes of faultes and ouersights For there remaineth a strife betwéen the spirit and the flesh euen in the godly and the remnants of the flesh stick in the hart and mind both and now while we liue we know but in part and the power of God is perfitted in weaknes and Ieremie praieth heale me O Lord and I shal be healed and Paul acknowledgeth of himselfe that he is not yet perfitte though labouring hard toward the marke and Iames saith generally concerning the faithfull In many things we all offend and our Sauiour witnesseth that he which is washed hath neede to wash his feete Wherefore though the chosen and elect of God be renued by the holy Ghost yet they are not clensed so in this life from all peruersenes of hart and blindnes of minde that they can neither swarne from dooing their duetie nor be deeeiued in iudgement For the holy Ghost no dout as Christ promised dooth leade theÌ„ into all truth yea I say farther into all holines but so as S. Paul professeth to the Ephesians that he shewed them all the counsell of God Now he shewed them all the counsell of God not absolutely and simply but so farre as was profitable for them The holy Ghost therefore doth lighten the mindes and sanctiâ—â—e the harts of the elect and chosen so farre as is expedient for their saluation But it is expedient for vs to erre in some things that we may geue all glory vnto God alone that knowing what we are we be not high minded that we may be taught to beare ech others burdens that we may worke forth our own saluation with feare that we may learn with Paul that the grace of God is sufficient for vs that we may sharpen our
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
of the state of the Church both in generall and particular the Roman and the reformed Churches of sundry nations it commeth first to be declared what is the holy catholike church whereof we professe in our Creede that wee beleeue it And hereof I say the holy catholike church is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen Which is termed a Church that is a company ofmen and an assembly of people called togither holy because God hath chosen this company and sanctified it to him selfe Catholike for that it consisteth not of one nation but of all spred through the whole world For God to the entent that he might impart the riches of his glorious grace vnto mankinde did choose from euerlasting a certaine number of men as a peculiar people who should possesse with him the kingdome of heauen prepared for them from the foundations of the world And although this people be sundred by the distance of places and times for the seuerall persons and members thereof yet hath hee ioyned and knit them all togither by the bond of his holy spirit into the felowship of one body and a ciuill or rather a spirituall communion as it were into one citie The name of which citie is the heauenly new and holy Ierusalem the citie of the liuing God the king is God almightie who founded establisheth and ruleth the citie the lawes are Gods word which the citizens heare and folow as sheepe the voice of the shepheard the citizens are the Saintes euen all and singular holy men who therefore are called felow-citizens of the Saintes and men of Gods houshold the register wherein their names are enrolled is called the booke of life finally the liberties and commoâ—ities which they enioy are most ample benefites both of this life and of the life to come to wit the grace of God the fountaine of goodnes the treasures of Christ who is heire of all things the forgiuenes of sinnes the peace of conscience the giftes of righteousnes of godlines of holines one spirit one faith one hope of our calling and sacraments which are the seales of our hope in a worde all thinges which are expedient for vs to the necessarie maintenance of our earthly life and after this life the inheritance of life eternall in heauen with endlesse blisse and glory But because the citizens of this citie of God hauing disobeyed rebelled against him had lost their fréedom through their treason and being put therby from euerlasting life wâ—re to suffer death in the chaines of darkenesse God the father of infinite mercy and compassion did send his onely begotten sonne into the world that he being appointed king of Gods citie should redéeme the citizens from the powerof darkenesse out of the thraldom of the diuell and translating them a fresh into his kingdom should blesse them and endow them with all the priuileges and liberties of the citizens of God And so it pleased him though we had played the traitors in reuolting from him to his and our enimie yet of his frée fauour to make a league with vs enter into couenant Which couenant being one and the same in substance yet diuersly considered and by reason of this diuersitie diuided into two the one called olde grounded on Christ being promised to come the other new on Christ being come into the world God hath set it downe in the instruments of his câ—uenant wherein he hath said I will be your God and ye shall be my people What is the tenour how greate the vse how vnspeakable the benefit of this holy couenant made with the Patriarkes the Prophets the Apostles and all the Saintes of God it is recorded in the sacred instruments of the olde and new testament or couenant An abridgement whereof containing the summeof the Apostles doctrine is deliuered in the articles of our Christian faith or Creede as we terme it gathered out of Gods worde Wherefore as the couenant consisteth of two branches so the Creede expressing it conteineth two partes One of them instructeth our faith touching God who saide to his seruants I will be your God the other touching the people of God that is the Church to whom God saide you shall be my people Touching God it teacheth vs to beleeue in him who is one God in nature distinct in three persons the Father the creator the Sonne the redéemer the holy Ghost the sanctifier Touching the people of God it teacheth vs to beleeue that they are a Church holy and Catholike which hath communion of the Saints to whom their sinnes are forgiuen whose bodies shal be raised vp againe from death and being ioyned with their soules shall liue euerlastingly Now to make the matter more euident and plaine that this citie of God and company of the chosen is the holy Catholike Church first it is certaine that the people of God is called effectually out of the filth of other men to know and serue him by Christ who doth lighten their mindes and moue their hartes through the power of the holy Ghost and ministerie of the word And the whole company of them who are so called is named the Church by an excellencie not a common one but a passing eminent and most noble Church as wherein the faithfull all are comprehended that eyther be or haue béene or shal be to the end from the beginning of the world Which is termed in scripture the Church of the first borne who are writen in heauen Which God did predestinate to be adopted in him self according to the good pleasure of his wil. Which Christ being giuen to it by his Father as a head to the body loued as his spouse redeemed it from Satan and quickneth it with his Spirit hauing suffered death him selfe to deliuer vs from the gulfe of death Moreouer as it is cleere that this Church is called out of the rascall sort of the world to be partaker of the inheritance of the kingdom of heauen so is it cléere too that it ought to be holy For the holy one of Israell can not abide them who are workers of iniquitie neither shall any Cananite be in the house of the Lord of hostes and into the heauenly citie there shall enter no vncleane thing nor whatsoeuer worketh abomination or lye Christ therefore the Sauiour of the Church his body who as he called them whoÌ„ he predestinate so iustified them whom he called hauing clensed the Church from her sinnes by his blood renueth her from the filth of the flesh vnto holinesse which he beginneth in this life and perfitteth in the life to come when he shall present her without spot and wrincle a glorious spouse vnto him selfe So that both the Church may well be termed holy and the communion of Saintes the Churches communion which militant on earth is holy in affection triumphant in heauen is holier in perfection both militant and triumphant is in
Catholike Church without the which there is no saluatioÌ„ nor forgiuenes of sinnes he créepeth vp to the head of the Church eueÌ„ Iesus Christ from Christ the head he slippeth downe by stealth vnto Christs vicar one and the same head as he saith with Christ euen the Pope of Rome whom yet to be the head of the Catholike Church not him selfe would say vnlesse perhaps in a dreame for theÌ„ he shuld be head of the triumphant church which is a part of the Catholike but he would be head of the visible church which he nameth Catholike therby the more easily to deceiue the simple who being astonied and snared with that name the fowler shutteth vp the net and concludeth that euery earthly creature if he will be saued must of necessitie be subiect to the Pope Thus saith Pope Boniface But vnlesse the Pope him selfe and the Fathers of his Councell of Trent being thereto forced by the truth of scripture confesse against them selues that the holy Catholike Church doth not signify the visible company of the Church militant coÌ„sisting of the good and badde mixt together which sense the Papists giue it with their Pope Boniface to the intent they may be kings I will not request you to beleue me in it For in the Catechisme which was set foorth by Pope Pius the fifth according to the decree of the Councell of Trent hauing said that the Church in the Creed doth chiefly signifie the company of the good bad togither they adde that Christ is head of the Church as of his body so that as bodily members haue life from the soule in like sort the faithfull haue from Christs spirit and therefore it is holy because it hath receiued the grace of holines and forgiuenes of sinnes from Christ who sanctifieth washeth it with his blood and it is called Catholike because it is spred in the light of one faith from the east to the west receiuing men of all sortes be they Scythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female conteining all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the ende of the world proâ—essing the true faith being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Pope Pius therefore and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the Church which is specified in the Creede is the body of Christ. Now the scripture teacheth that all the body of Christ is quickned and increased by the holy Ghost as if he were the soule of it But the bad and wicked are neither quickned nor increased Then are they no part of the body of Christ and therfore neither of the Church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councel of Trent affirme that the Church is holy being washed by the blood of Christ indued with grace of holines and with forgiuenes of sinnes Now blessed are they whose sinnes are forgiuen blessed are the cleane in heart for they shall see God But the bad and wicked shall neither see God nor are blessed Therefore neither haue they forgiuenes of sinnes nor are their harts cleane Then are they no part of the church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the church is called Catholike in respect that it conteineth all the faithfull from the first to the last professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ. But the wicked and hypocrites either are not faithfull or if they may be called so yet they professe not the true faith or if they professe it yet they are not built on Christ. For they who are built on Christ are built on a rocke and shall neuer be remoued But the wicked shall be remoued Then are they no part of the church Yet they must néedes be a part of the church if the name of church did signifie the visible church as we call it consisting of the good and bad Wherfore it foloweth thereof that the church mentioned in the Créede betokeneth not the visible church that is the company of good and bad together which it is imagined to do by the builders of the Popes monarchie Thus as Caiaphas in the Gospel although he spake many things amisse against Christ yet being the high Priest that same yeere he saide well in this spéech though ill meant too that it was expedient for them that one man should dye for the people so the Pope and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent being the high Priestes that same yere though they meant yll in saying that the holy catholike church which we beléeue is the company of good and bad mixt together yet being lead and moued by some diuine force to speake better then they meant they added such an exposition that their owne doctrine is ouerthrowen by it the errour of the Councell of Constance is discouered and the truth of the scripture confirmed and established Wherefore I may iustly conclude against the Papists out of the Pope him selfe and the Councell of Trent that all the good and holy men and none but they do make the holy Catholike church But séeing our faith must haue a better ground then humane decrées either of Popes or Councels whose breath is in their nosethrils whose houses are of clay and their foundation is sande therefore let vs stay our selues on that conclusion which I made before on warrant of the holy Ghost who hath spoken to vs by the Apostles and Prophets The holy Catholik Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen And let this suffice for the first Conclusion The second doth folow The church of Rome is not the catholike church nor a sound meÌ„ber of the catholike church Of the which position that we may the better perceiue the drift and truth we must search somewhat déeper and fetch the beginnings of particular churches out of the fountaine whence they flowe God hauing chosen in his eternall purpose the holy catholike church that is all his children to be the heires of his kingdome and to triumph in heauenly glory with him and his elect Angels doth first of all sende them abroade into the earth as it were into a campe there to serue him in warre against the flesh the world the deuill and all the powers of darkenes vnder the banner of Christ that they may come conquerours out of warfare to the triumph and may striue lawfully before they be crowned Whereto that they may be the stronger made and better furnished to endure the labour and hardnes of warfare God begetteth them a new by his word the word working effectually through the holy Ghost as it were by seede and with the same word he nourisheth them as with milke strengtheneth them as with meat armeth them as with a sword of the Spirit and frameth them a shield of faith wherewith they may quench the firie dartes of the wicked one Yea the more
indeede more sound then other some according as the word is more purely preaâ—â—ed and the spirit worketh more effectually but all of them sound But where the word of God either is not preached so that there groweth a famine or is preached corruptly mixt with mans word as it were with leauen or darnell or poyson as they who receiue no foode are like to dye through hunger such as eate bread made of corne and â—â—rnel doo fall into a light frenâ—â—â— so must we néedes iudge that churches whose foode is either none or naught are apt to diseases and neere to their deathe For Amos declareth that men are cast away through want of the word in that he telleth Israel that God will send a famine and a thirst of hearing the word of the Lord which when they shall seeke for to and fro and finde no where it shall come to passe that virgins and young men shall faint with thirst and fall and neuer rise againe Now that the corruption of the worde doth hurt too the Apostle noteth in aduertising Timothee that they who teach other doctrine and consent not to the wholesome wordes of Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines are sick and do dote about noysome folies which edifie not to godly faith in so muâ—h that their word doth fret as a kinde of canker which hauing taken hold of one part of the body doth eate out the next partes by litle litle vntill the whole body at last be cleane consumed Which if it come to passe as it must of necessitie vnlesse the better remedy be spéedily prouided for healing of the body that which was a body doth become a carkasse and is no longer a church it is left destitute of the spirit of God which is the soule thereof and of the soules instrument that is the word of God And this death is threatned by Christ to the Iewes in the old church refusing him their Messias therefore shal the kingdome of God be taken from you and geuen to a nation which shall bring foorth the fruites of it and in the new church to the EphesiaÌ„s hauing left their first loue I wil come against thee shortly wil remoue thy candlestick out of his place except thou amend Which two things foretold by our sauiour Christ were fulfilled in the destruction of the two churches of the church of the Iewes within a few yeares when the gospel was remoued from them to the Gentiles of the church of Ephesus many ages after when hauing béen sick first of sundrie heresies it died a while ago of the plague of Mahomet Thus I haue declared as briefly as I could how particular churches are called members of the catholike how they are ordeyned to learn and practise Goâ—s seruice how the good in them are intermingled with the bad the godly with hypocrites finally what their health is what their diseases be and when they must be counted sound when vnsound Which pointes being marked my paines wil be the lesser in opening the Conclusion the two stemmes whereof on what rootes they grow you perceiue already The church of Rome is not the catholike church it is no sound member of the catholike church The church of Rome is not the catholike church What can be more cléere For the catholike church is the church vniuersall the church of Rome is particular So that in my iudgement the Papistes speake monstrously when they call the Romane church the catholike church and make them all one Some will say perhaps that when they call it catholike they meane it to be sound and of a right beleefe such as doth hold the catholike faith as the ciuil law doth terme the right beléeuers catholike Christians and the church of Afrike is named catholike by Cyprian Yet that is false too For they geue the title of catholike church of Rome that they may put into the heads of the vnskilfull that that is the church out of which there is no saluation But out of the church of Rome there haue beene saued innumerable shall be out of the catholike church not one But let it be graunted that they meane by catholike a church holding the right faith I deny that the church of Rome doth hold the right faith and that is the other part of my Conclusion it is no â—ound member of the catholike church Now when I deny it to be a sound member of the catholike church I meane not that it languisheth of a litle sicknes or disease not dangerous which may seeme rather to haue abated somewhat of exquisite health then haue bereft her of all health For as Galen teacheth of the health of the body that it hath a reasonable bredth as you would say and certaine degrees as it were of perfitnes that they who are able to go about their businesse and doo affaires of life are to be counted whole though they enioy not a most perfit health so in the health of churches I déeme there are certaine degrées of sinceritie that they who doo the functions of spirituall life reasonably well are to be counted â—ound although they attaine not to a most absolute soundnesse And for that cause as we iudge our owne churches to be sound although there remaine some distemper in them by the relikes of those diseases wherewith the contagion of the church of Rome had cast them downe so that they could not yet be recouered fully in like sort we iudge of the churches of Germanie which are troubled with the errour of consubstantiation as it were with the grudging of a litle ague if other wise they holde Christian faith and loue soundly and sincerely But the church of Rome is not distempered with a litle ague such as hindereth not the functions of life greatly but is sicke of a canker or rather of a leprosy or rather of a pestilence in so much that she is past hope of recouery vnlesse our Sauiour Christ the heauenly physician doo giue her wholesome medicins to purge her of pernicious humours And therefore I pronounce that the church of Rome is no sound member of the catholike church Which I will proue by two reasons the one of the causes the other of the effectes whereof from the one diseases doo arise in the other they shew them selues by them both they are surely proued I would to God I might discourse hereof at large according as the weightines of the thinges requireth But we must be content to doo as time wil license vs. You wil pardon me therefore I trust if I runne them ouer somewhat hastily and as they say touch and go I will hold out my finger toward the well head gesse you the lion by his pawes Concerning the causes which doo bréed diseases and sicknesse in the church it is as I haue touched already cléere and certaine that they are either the want of food of Gods word
or the hauing of it corrupted In the which respect Christ who giueth charge that his sheepe be fedde chargeth that they be taught to obserue those thinges which he commanded his Apostles And Peter hauing shewed that the faithfull are begotten a new by Gods word exhorteth them to desire the milke of the word the sincere milke not corrupt with any trumperie that they may grow thereby And they who are warned to heare the Pharises sitting in the chaire of Moses are warned to beware of the leauen of the Pharises Wherefore a church that will be whole and sound must neither be famished with want of Gods worde nor haue it corrupted But the church of Rome doth bring in both corruption and want of the worde nor onely bring them in but also maintaine them obstinatly as wholesome The church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound nay she séemeth rather to be madde frantike For she bringeth in corruption of the worde to beginne with that by mingling and adulterating the word of God with mans word not one way but sundrie First in that she giueth autoritie canonicall that is diuine autoritie to the bookes called apocrypha which are humane Against the truth of the holy scripture which is gainsaid flatly by certaine pointes in the apocrypha against the cléere euidence of thinges therein recorded which by their repugnancie one vnto another doo shew that men were autours of them against the consent iudgement of the church of the old church wholy and of the best part of the new Secondly in that she receyueth traditions of men with equall reuerence and religious affection as she doth the scripture As though the holy scripture the most exact perfect squire of Gods will and rule of righteousnesse and wisedome sufficed not for faith and maners or the spirit of God could gainsay him selfe which must be imported by this of traditions some whereof do fight one against another some against the scripture In sooth this point is handled with a dutifull care and regarde of scripture which hath no greater reuerence at Rome then traditions and that all traditions are not obserued there it is playne by the Fathers whom them selues alleage Thirdly in that she willeth the Latin translation of the Bible commonly called S. Ieroms to be receiued throughout as sacred and canonicall and not to be refused on any pretense Whereas yet to let go the iudgement of S. Ierom other ancient Fathers the Papists them selues such as are most expert in the toungs amongst them acknowledge that translation to haue missed sometimes the meaning of the holy Ghost and not the words onely Euen Pagninus namely in the old testament Budaeus in the new Andradius and Arias Montanus in them both Fourthly in that about expounding of the scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one Whereby it falleth out that the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost shall be refused often but meanings and senses deuised by men though crossing one an other yet if they be currant for the time and practised as a Cardinall saith shall go for authenticall the baggage which the Schoole men haue sâ—iled Diuinitie with out of the Philosophers puddles and their owne shall be accounted holy the things which some Fathers haue handled more soundly shal be set aside as humane inuentions though they agrée with Gods word but other in the which they were ouerséene through weaknes of naturall affection or reason shall be approued as Gods worde though they procéede from mans fansie Fifthly in that she coopleth with the commandements of God the commandements of the church that is to say of men and that is more she coopleth therewith these commandements not as things indifferent but as necessarie to saluation So what soeuer filth deuotion as it is named indéede superstition hath brought or shall bring in that must be déemed to be pure religion and in vaine shall the Lord be worshipped of vs as of the Iewes in olde time with the commandements of men and good intentes as they call them which are abominable to God shall be preferred before obedience voluntarie religion condemned by the scriptures shall be taken vp as a most holy seruice of the Lord. Last of all in that she appointeth images to be had in churches for the instruction of the people as bookes so one supposeth which idiotes may reade in O miserable idiotes the instructing of whom is committed to a stocke which instructeth to vanities whose teacher is an image that is a teacher of lyes if we beléeue the Prophets And is it any maruell if they be naughtie scholers whose masters are dumbe idols the doctours of errours The church of Rome therefore hath brought in such corruption of the word of God what by the apocrypha what by traditions what by faultes of the translation what by the sense of her holding what by commandements of the church what by the teachers of idiotes that she séemeth to haue mingled the sustenance of life not with filth but with poyson and the wine of God not with water but with venoome and the bread of Christ not with leauen but with rats-bane or rather if I might speake so mens-bane As for want of Gods word which is the other cause of sicknesse how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith our auncestours felt by long experience and aged men may remember and histories of the church doo witnesse and they who are vnder the Popish yoke know For though she permitted sometimes in some places perhaps a small parcell of the word of God if I may call that Gods word which sauoured more of mens deuises then of God to be touched in the presence and assembly of the people by common cryers preachers such as they were yet she hath not onely not permitted to Christians but also hath hindered with no lesse impietie then inhumanitie yea and hindereth still that abundance and plentie which they ought to haue as it is writen Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisedome For whereas this plenty is gotten obteined by two speciall meanes to weete by hearing by reading the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publikely the other allowed priuatly to euery man at home both vsed and approued by the rules of the holy Ghost and the practise of holy companies and the iudgement of holy churches our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon not to Ierusalem as Cardinall Hosius saith if the holy scriptures be read in mother toongs doo kéepe them sealed vp in a straunge toong and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies that
to vs. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it I will beare with him as in the rest of his tauntes also Loosers must haue their wordes An other point he carpeth at is mine exposition of holy catholike church Which I hauing proued by the Papistes themselues that it must needes signifie the company of the chosen alone not mixt with wicked ones because by their catechisme it is the body of Christ all the body of Christ is quickned by his spirit which the wicked are not he replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickned by his spirite because some partes of it are so not all the body An aunswere somewhat straunge considering that the scripture which I had alleaged saith that al the body of Christ is quickned so As for that he noteth of the word Catholike that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sorte Philip Mornayes excellent giftes and fruitfull labors I reuerence and loue And both of vs hauing aymed at the trueth whether hath come neerer it let the Prophets iudge But if among Prophets in the church of Christ somewhat be reueiled to one that is not to an other this iustifieth not them who say they are Iewes are not but are the Synagogue of Satan Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion that the holy Catholike church which we beleue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen For touching that he addeth that he hath disproued it by shewing that the church is distinguished from hereticall assemblies by the name of Catholike he hath disproued it as soundly therby as if he should say that the Catholike epistles in the new Testament were not so called as generall writen to no certaine persons because that other writings are named catholike also to distinguish them from hereticall The third point he taketh vpon him to confute is an argument that I made to proue my third Conclusion All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of trueth some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour But he that telleth the trueth alwayes is more to be credited theÌ„ he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more theÌ„ is the Church And to this argumeÌ„t saith he I answere briefly that no words of the Church are the words of error that is that no erroneus thing is euer taught defined or approued by the Church in her Bishops Pastors teaching vniformly in the decrees of Councels chiefly of generall Councels in that which the Fathers teach with one consent in her head the Pope defining deliuering any thing publikely finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth though â—euerally some Bishops may priuately erre in teaching and one or moe Fathers may write some vntrue thing or be in some erâ—or and somewhat euen in CouÌ„cels without the decree it self may be said or reasoned inconueniently and to conclude the Pope may be ouerseene priuately in somewhat But this must be certes imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an aunswere vnto my argument then can I tell him a very briefe way to aunswere my Conclusions all with one word How By graunting them all to be true For though it were so that nether Bishops teaching vniformely might erre nor Fathers consenting nor Councels in decrees nor the Pope in publike and definitiue sentence which I both there else where haue shewed to be otherwise but if it were so yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers and Councels and the Pope himselfe may erre as he confesseth in this or that point and this or that maner he graunteth that which I said that some wordes of the Church are the wordes of errour But those wordes must certes saith he be imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Now certes M Doctor is a mery maÌ„ who can shift an argument off with such a iest As though the Church her selfe consisted not of men and therefore must needes offend so through frailtie the men offending so The fourth and last point wherewith he findeth fault is that amongst the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike Church I bring this that touching expounding of the Scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers coÌ„senting all in one Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers yea that I affirme that it is a marke and token of a false Church to admitte the ioint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture he dooth me great wrong For though by folowing too much breuitie in Latin I fell into obscuritie and said not so plainly that which I would and should as in the English now I haue yet that which I said dooth cleere me of his sclaunder as D. Fulke hath shewed whom I can better thanke for his defending of me then deserue the praise that he hath geuen me therein Nay I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome that the faulte which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their iudgemeÌ„t in that point For I declared straight in the words ensuing that first shee autoriseth thereby her owne practise as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture though contrarie to it selfe next she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolemen wil haue theÌ„ taken for waters of life lastly when some Fathers gainsay her she reiecteth them because they all consent not and admitteth them who doo make for her as hauing hit the mark Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one The former two import that I condemne the frensie of the Church of Rome mainteining her Dunses and deedes against the Fathers But the serpentes assembled in the Councell of Trent haue set downe that I spake of touching the expounding of the scripture so suttilly that a simple man would thinke they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture onely as the Fathers geue all with one consent Whereas in very trueth they do nothing lesse they disallow them rather For whether by the Fathers consenting all in one they meane the Fathers all simply none excepted that consent is a Phoenix and neuer will be found or whether they meane a good number of them as M. Hart expoundeth it they dissent froÌ„ senses agreed on by that number For example the scripture saith There shal be one flock one Pastour The Fathers Austin Chrysostome Cyrill Ierome Gregorie expounde this of Christ. The church of Romes
the lesser it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene Austin and Ierom concerning the reproofe of Peter whether Paule rebuked him in earnest as blameworthie or dissembled with him and made a duetifull lie which Ierom termed an honest policie For your selues graunt that Austin who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest did iudge therin more soundly truely then Ierom did who thought that he dissembled Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Whereupon S. Austin replyed that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side if he had read much But I saith he haue Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him do I flie to him I appeale from all the Doctors his interpreters who are of other mindes Of him do I aske whereas he writeth to the Galatians that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell and that hee withstood him to his face for it bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes whether he wrote true or did lye perhaps with I know not what politike falshood And I do heare him a litle before making a very religious protestation in the beginning of the same discourse The thynges whych I write vnto you beholde I witnes before God I lye not Let them who are of other mindes pardon me I beleeue rather so great an Apostle swearing in his owne and for his owne words then anie man be he neuer so learned talking of the words of an other A wise and frée iudgement worthie of S. Austin Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures is but a leaden rule not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by for building of the Lords temple Hart. This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers and refuse their iudgement But that as Torrensis hath obserued well must bee with two cautions One that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth The other that we do it with reuerence and modestie Rainoldes UUith reuerence and modestie God forbid else As Elihu reproued Iob as Paule reproued Peter But for the other caution how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth Hart. Oneâ—way to know it and that a good way is the common testimonie of the faithfull people if they with one consent beleeue it to be true Rainoldes This bringeth vs small helpe to the expounding of scriptures For things may be true and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them As it is plaine in places that haue béene applied by Christians against the Iewes But let it be a good way UUhat if the faithfull people doo dissent As in the question which we haue in hand about the Popes supremacy the people of the east church dissented from the west many hundred yeares together UUhat shall we doo then Hart. Then an other way a better way to finde it is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors if they doo decrée it in a generall councell As for the Popes supremacy they did in the Councell of Lateran Rainoldes The Bishops of the east church say that the Councell of Lateran was not generall which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also as it is noted on your law But here the former difficulties méete vs againe and bréede the same perplexitie For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels haue expounded neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest Againe although you say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions Lastly generall Councels may dissent too as heretofore they haue in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of as our conference will shew you sée that you haue not yet resolued me One question I must aske you more In this case when Councels say nothing of Scriptures or misapply them in proofes or dissent in conclusions what are we to doo Hart. If Councels dissent we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head And to answere all your questions in a word whether with the Councels or without the Councels that which the Head determineth is a knowne truth that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour Rainoldes You meane by the Head not our Sauior Christ but the Pope I trow Hart. I the visible head Rainoldes Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke So that to bring it to the point in controuersie whereas our question is whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church you say He is so UUhen we sift the matter and séeke the reasons why this is the summe of all Because him selfe saith so I thought that the church should haue béene your lawier to expounde your euidences but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope Hée is the churches husband belike and in matters of law dealeth for her I cannot blame you though you be content to make him your iudge too For if he giue sentence in this cause against you I will neuer trust him Hart. You doo gather more of mine answers then I meant I pray make your owne collections and not mine Rainoldes I doo gather nothing but that which you haue scattered For you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture The wordes we agrée decide by the sense the sense must be tried you say by the Fathers the Fathers by the truth the truth by the people the people by the Councels the Councels by the Pope If one of vs should make but a semblance of such an answere you would sport your selues with it and call it a Circulation and cry against our impudency whoope at it like stage players But you may daunse such roundes and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie Hart. Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations rounds as you call them I say no more but this that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise then the last meane to resolue vs of it is the Popes authoritie But there néeded not so much adoo hereof if I proue that Christ did giue that supremacie whereof we talked to S. Peter Rainoldes You can neuer proue that Christ did giue it him but by the word of Christ which is the holie scripture And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense not in
the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most
to harten them against all dangers and deceites of enemies with the skill of warfare and sure hope of victorie he bindeth them with sacraments as with bonds of obedience and pledges of his grace he willeth them to call for his helpe in distresses promiseth it if they call for it he appointeth them warlike discipline to kéepe them selues in order and gard them safer from their enemies to be short be deliuereth them the whole trade of warfare opened by himselfe the Generall of the armie and writen in his word To the intent then that all the souldiers of God who be sent at diuers times into diuers countries to serue him in this warfare might learne it practise it he hath ordeined as ciuill assemblies societies for the mainteinance of this life so likewise for the next ecclesiasticall In which ecclesiasticall societies and assemblies it is his will pleasure that there should be captaines to teach and souldiers to learne both of them warriours faithfully to practise and wage the warre of the Lord. And these are called churches but particular churches to distinguish them from the catholike because they are diuers partes of the catholike that is the whole church diuers members of one body diuers bandes of one army Which for the diuers regard of place and time wherein they go to warfare are specified by diuers names In regard of place the church which serued God at Ierusalem is called the church of Ierusalem that which at Samaria the church of Samaria that which at Ephesus the church of Ephesus that which at Rome the church of Rome they which in England in France in Germany are called the English the French the Dutch churches In regard of time wée say the Iewish church in the dayes of Moses of Dauid of Ezekias the Roman vnder Nero Constantine Boniface the English in King Henries raigne King Edwardes Queene Maries or how soeuer els the difference of times be noted Now the rule of reason and honestie would that euery one of these churches ordeined by God to that end should bring foorth the children of God as a mother yeld dutifull honour to God as a spouse and fight the spirituall battailes of God as a valiant and faithfull army But the deuill the enemy of the chosen woman in nature a Satan in subtletie a serpent in fiercenes a dragon which furiously pursueth the woman her seede soweth rares among the wheate in the field of the Lord that is to say he mingleth his souldiors with the souldiours of God in the campe and amongst the godly he foysteth in hypocrites that they being felow-souldiors in shew but traitours in déede may corrupt the army And him selfe prouoketh the faithfull to reuolt from God by all his practises open and secret force and fraude some time by fyer and sword of tyrantes some time by baites of pleasures and wealth some time by the pretense of religion and charitie By the which meanes he procureth often partly through the craft and cunning of hypocrites chiefly when they are made captaines of some band partly through the frailtie and infirmitie of the elect whom flesh and blood doo weaken that the church which is billed to the warfare of Christ knoweth not or careth not for the trade of warfare and serueth perhaps vnder her captaines banner but retchlessely and loosely perhaps is betrayed to the enemy by her watchmen while either they doo fall a sleepe or deale falsely And so commeth that to passe at the length which the Prophets lament in the church of the Iewes too many churches since Christes time haue felt that the church which should be a mother is a stepmother shée whose faith is plight to Christ becometh an adulteresse bands of souldiers breaking their promise yea their oth doo rebell against the Highest So the churches of Galatia when they had beléeued the Gospell of Christ and their names were billed by their owne consent to serue in his warres were remoued away by such as troubled them to an other Gospell So S. Paul feareth for the Church of Corinth least as the serpent beguiled Eue through his suttletie so their minds should be corrupted and seduced from the simplicitie that is in Christ. So Christ him selfe teacheth vs that the church of Pergamus was stayned with the filth of the Nicolaitans that the church of Laodicea was blind naked luke-warme neither hot nor cold that the church of Sardis was in part dead in part readie to dye though aliue in part The assemblies therefore of the churches militant called visible churches which doo containe the good togither with the bad the chosen with the reprobate the faithfull with the treacherous the holy with the hypocrites chaffe with corne tares with wheate wooden and earthen vessels with vessels of gold and siluer some of them for honour and some vnto dishonour I say these visible churches may doo their dutie faintly may leaue it altogither vndoon may be discharged of their oth and dismissed from souldiers seruice they may be sicke of lesser diseases and infirmities they may be of a deadly pestilence they may lose the spirit of Christ and so dye Furthermore to make it easier to be séene what churches ought to be accounted dead what churches sicke what churches whole and sound we haue to consider the causes of death of sicknesse and of health The causes of these things do come in mens bodies as Physicians teach partly from the seede that wee are begotten of partly from the foode wherewith wee are nourished Whereof the one appeereth in sicknesse and diseases that come by inheritance such as are deriued from the parents to the children the other as it hath a great force in all men so experience sheweth that it hath greatest force in armies For the souldiors who serued Marcus Antonius being faine to eate rootes for want of corne fell vpon an herb which brought them first to madnesse and afterward to death and Vegetius a writer of the trade of warfare geuing charge that souldiers drinke not of marish waters saith that naughty water is like vnto poyson and doth breede the plague in them who drinke of it Not vnlike is the case of spirituall death diseases and health in the bodies of Churches For they doo either liue in pâ—rfit good health or fall into sicknes or come to their death according to the nature of their seede and foode Now the seede whereof and foode with the which they are wont and ought to be begotten anew and nourished is the word of God as S. Peter witnesseth preached by the seruants and ministers of Christ. Therefore in what Churches the ministers doo preach the word of God pure sincere and vncorrupt that it may bréede good iuyce and blood in them through the inward woorking of the holy Ghost those churches must we count to be â—ound and whole some of them