The Prisoner against the Prelate OR A DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE Common Goal AND CATHEDRAL OF LINCOLN WHEREIN The true Faith and Church of Christ are briefly discovered vindicated BY Authority of Scripture Suffrages of Antiquity Concessions and Confessions of the Chief Opposers of the same Church and Faith Written by a Prisoner of the Baptised Churches in Lincolnshire O my Dove that art in the clefts of the Rocks in the secret places of the stairs let me see thy countenance let me hear thy voice for sweet is thy voice and thy countenance is comly Cant. 2. 4. I sit as a Queen and shall see no sorrow Rev. 18. 7. Prisoner Prelate You look too much upon the Walls c. the Mountains Caves and Prisons are more sure places to me Bernard A PROBLEME demonstrated AND Fixed to the ensuing Dialogue instead of an Epistle to the Reader The PROBLEME No Learned English-man can modestly pretend to know the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Tongues so far as they only concern the holy Scripture any whit more in substance or effect than such us are Vnlearned The Demonstration IS it not the usual refuge of many in our Age to fly to their particular skill in the Hebrew and Greek Tongues as a sufficient defence against such as are not skilled in the literature thereof when opposed about such things touching Religion as for which the English Text affords nothing Yea it is even deemed enough to silence the Unlearned when assaying to reason about Religion to tell them They are unlearned know not the Originals understand no Greek c. Upon this occasion I have taken this their Plea into consideration to see whether it be of such weight as is commonly thought And verily to the utmost of my understanding it seems to have nothing of strength in it for to say nothing of this vain boast of their knowledge of the Originals of holy Scripture when yet they never saw them nor know where to look for them I say to let this pass if we consider diligently wherein the effectual and substantial knowledg of the Hebrew Greek Text of Scripture lieth we shall find that as touching Englishmen it lieth not in the knowledge of the Characters or Words of these Tongues for this a Child of seven years old may know but that which is the effectuall knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek Tongues to an Englishman is His knowing the true English of the Hebrew and Greek Characters and Words For example these Hebrew and Greek Letters avail an Englishman nothing so long as he can only sound them in the Hebrew and Greek Dialects thus Aleph Beth Gimel c. or Alpha Beta Gamma c. But that which is the effectual knowledge of these Letters to an Englishman is to know that they are of the same signification with the English A. B. G. The like may be said of words for so long as our English-men can onely sound the Hebrew word El or the Greek word Theo it edifieth not the understanding but when we know these words are the same in signification with our English word God this is that understanding of the Hebrew and Greek which to us is truly effectual for whatsoever sounds our lips pronounce be they Hebrew Greek or Latin our understanding receiveth these several sounds in the English tongue This being evident it now remains to be considered whether it be not possible as things now stand for such English-men as know not the Hebrew or Greek Characters and Words yet for all that to know the most proper and effectual signification of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Old and New Testaments That thus it may be and is will thus appear Either the Translations which we have are the same in substance and effect with the Hebrew and Greek Bible or they are not If they be the same in substance and effect Then such as know the Scripture as translated into English do know the substance and effect of the Hebrew and Greek Bible Yea further If the learned Translators whether Cantabrigians and Oxonians or else the Rhemists themselves knew the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible Then we who are unlearned do know the same This must needs be true or else we must conclude that they knew the true meaning and yet delivered a false but this were a great violation of Charity to think that they would thus abuse themselves and the whole race of English-men or expose their Credit to everlasting contempt and themselves and followers to eternal destruction and all this wilfully and only about the signification of Words and Letters and not about the Doctrine contained therein for Translation and Exposition are two things But this I say were a great breach of Charity to think and must needs argue great pride in any to affirm and would certainly expose not only such particular Learned-men who so highly stand upon their Learning but also whole Conventions of them to unavoidable suspition let them give forth never so sincere a Translation and the rather because so many eminent for Learning and Industry have vigorously and unanimously pressed the Unlearned to adhere to the English Text as the undoubted Voice of God speaking by his lively Oracles the Scriptures Now then if our English-Translation be indeed the same in substance and effect with the Hebrew Greek Bibles at least to the best of the understanding of the Learned Translators and that their understanding may well be preferred before the understanding of any one learned English-man now living Then it followeth that such as know the English-Text do in substance and effect know the Hebrew and Greek Text at least so far as may equallize the knowledge of any learned English-man now living Because that which the Translators DID know the same for substance We DO know And that which they attained to through much study we know without either learning or study further than to hear or read the Text of Scripture in our Mother-Tongue For the Translation which they gave forth was by their own solemn protestation the utmost for substance of their knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible But we have this their Translation Therefore we have in substance the same knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Bible which the learned Translators had This might be further illustrated by the consideration of divers Arts and obscure Mysteries which at the first were not found out without great learning and travel but when once a familiar discovery thereof was made divers have been expert therein and that without the help of that learning and study which first brought them forth As thus The Unlearned may defend themselves in the use of Holy Scriptures when concerned in any Controversie with the Learned about matters of Religion So also may they defend themselves in using the Works of Greek or Latin Writers so far as they are found to be translated into the
hands being sent to a Friend of mine The party sending it supposing it gave very clear evidence against the Anabaptists I therefore searched what it said in that respect and found in their Answer to the ninth Question the very thing which we hold in the point of Baptism clearly asseâ—ted and proved The Question and Answer are verbatim as followeth Question What are the publick means which Christ hath appointed to Salvation Answer Christ hath appointed that fit men shall be ordained his Ministers to disciple the uncalled and to baptise all that are Disciples Mat. 28. 19 20. Mark 16. 15. This is all they say in that Book concerning Baptism nor quote they any other Scriptures whereupon I wrote is followeth What! shall nigh fixty of wise learned men Yea of the prime be contradicted when After no small debate they published This Book which seems with Zeal and Truth bespred Our Catechisers grave learned all How can a work by such performed fall Good Reader bow thine heart to understand What 's true though 't be from an unlearned hand The wisdom of the wise must come to nought For so it was foretold and now is brought In part to pass since thus much may be said Ev'n of these men they quite destroy the trade Of their so much adored baptizing Of Infants Wherefore them this song I 'l sing Our Catechisers must be catechiz'd How and what persons ought to be baptiz'd For here they lie i' th dark and will not see What 's true what 's false though by themselves it be Made manifest in this their little Book To every Reader who doth please to look In page the one and thirtieth where they say Concerning Baptising This is Christ's Way That such as are uncall'd must first be taught Now Infants are uncall'd and therefore ought By their direction not to be baptized And yet as though all this had not sufficed They further tell us All that are Disciples Baptiz'd must be into the sacred Titles Of Father Son and Spirit Then they cite Mathew the eight twenteth which gives light With Mark the sixteenth full to what they say And we say th' same and thus they cast away Their Infant Baptisme sith Infants can Be no Disciples made by th' wisest man That is amongst this Catalogue I mean Or else their skill is more than we have seen For sith Disciple doth import a Learner By others teaching he 's a weak discerner That taketh new-born Infants for to be Disciples Thus we may mans folly see Cathederal As for the Presbyters let them maintain Their plea. But for Tradition 't is most plain It stands with me And tho thou hast now shown Some few who did thy way of Baptism own Thou dost not prove that ever these men taught ' Gainst Infant Baptisme yet this thou ought To shew but this can in no wise be shown For 't is most clear they did my Baptim own Jayl Because I hate disingenuity I grant some Antients did with thee comply But yet I say th'most Antient if not all Such doctrine taught as doth in question call Thy Infant Baptisme And some did so Oppose it that their lives they did forgo In opposition to it in our Nation When first upon our Land it made invasion But ere I come to speak of these sad dayes We 'll cast our eye on some doctrinal rayes Of th' Antients that the mist they may expel And clear our way First Jerom doth us tell The Lord commanded first to teach and then Baptise such as appeared faithful men And Justin Martyr doth the same avow And Athanasius doth that truth allow Haimo avoucheth this for verity And Rabinus the same doth testifie Beda is of this mind and plainly saith Th' Apostles did instruct men in the Faith And then baptise them So Strigelius Did likewise teach So did Eusebius Basil and Austin do this Doctrine own Cyprian before them did the same make known With others whom I now refuse to name Sith these are persons of the greatest fame And now O Minster pray thee well observe What strength I have from Records which preserve The mem'ry of our Nations first reception Of Gospel-light see therefore this collection Out of Fabian his right ancient story In the fifth part where though he greatly glory Of that great Monk Augustine call'd by name Yet unto his and thy no little shame He doth confess that Brittons Bishops did Refuse to baptise Infants tho much chid By that great Monk Their reason was they say Such things had not been taught them till that day Yet they the Gospel long before obeyed And in the love thereof were firm and stayed But now alas for this their just denyal Of Austins motion they strait met with tryal For Fabian relates how they were slain And Fox upon Augustine layes the blame At least in part and can assign no cause But that they did not bow to Austins Laws Now Minster if we take the perfect time When in this Land the Gospel first did shine Which was more than four hundred years before Austin the Monk set foot upon our shore During which time no persons were baptized That I can find till they were catechised Then 't is most clear my Baptism thine out dates Four hundred years as Fabian relates In this our Island and in other places Mine hath the old foot-steps thine noval traces But why do I thy doing daign to name Baptisme for in truth it is a shame For to vouchsafe it such an appellation Only I use it ' cause our disputation Doth so require But Sprinkling never can Suit with God's Word delivered unto man For his direction in that Ordinance Of Baptizontes sith that clear instance In John the third and twenty third hath said The Reason why John Baptist us'd his trade In Enon was because of plenitude Of Water which doth Sprinkling Clear exclude From being Baptisme As also doth The act of Philip and the Eunuch both Sith both went into th' Water for to act What Baptisme requires in th' outward fact Yea Christ our Lord who knew the Father's will Went Into Water Baptism to fulfill Now whether Scripture or thy Doctors be The safest guide herein I leave to thee Cathedral Doubtless O Jayl in this bend of quotations Thou' rt guilty of no small falsifications I ask thee whether thou hast read each Father Whose words in this sort thou hast scratch'd together If not as doubtless not sith thou' rt unlearned O how presumptuous then art thou discerned Jayle I answer freely some I 've read not all The Works of these whose witness forth I call The most I 've read even as they are translated By those to whom thy self art ' sociated Which therefore must more claim thy estimation Than if they were the fruit of my translation Cathederal Whereas my Sprinkling thou so ill dost brook Thou mayst remember if thou please to look Into
English Tongue And this may also serve for an Apology for the Quotations alleaged in the ensuing Dialogue whether from Scriptures or Antient Writers If now it should be objected That many words in holy Writ are left untranslated and that therefore we must needs depend upon the present Learned for help in such cases c. To this it may well be answered That there are such Lexicons Dictionaries and Tables long ago extant and yet remaining as may well suffice the Unlearned for their attaining to the true etymology of all such words at least in such sort as may be thought equivolent with what the present Learned are capable to accommodate us with Hence it may be perceived that the mode of divers of our present Scholars under what form of Religion soever in their contradicting of Translators and Interpretors which have communicated to us the holy Scriptures or other Authors in the English Tongue is so far from forcing the Unlearned to a necessary reliance upon them in these cases that in truth it will rather inforce them to a necessary disclaiming them as not much regarding what they either say or write For if we have been deceived by all that have formerly pretended to serve their Generations in these weighty and eternal Soul-concerns We shall have small ground of incouragement to believe that we shall be ingeniously dealt with by such men as to the intent they may bring us under their devised fables and antiscriptural Traditions do run that desperate adventure to traduce the Scriptures as falsly translated For that diversity which may seem to be among our English Editions of Holy Scripture which perhaps may thrust it self in Objection-wise in this place Augustine hath said well who adviseth the Reader not to leave the signification of the History for the circumstance of a word nor to condemn either of the Authorities From the premises I will conclude with the words of the Problem No Learned English-man can with modesty pretend to know the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek Tongues so far as they onely concern the Holy Scriptures any whit more in substance or effect than such as are unlearned Tho. Grantham The Authors Expostulation with himself and his Appeal to God about the Publication of the Ensuing POEMS LOrd have I any other end in what My purpose is at present to relate Than to advance thy Truth thy Name and Praise In these so much divided dismal dayes If so thou know'st how much I have desired These lines ere they came forth may have expired So as t' have found their end before they had Their full beginnings in these Poems made Or is it for vain fleshly ostentation That I appear ' gainst the prevarication Of these our days Then let my hand forget Her cunning once a Pen to draw or set On Paper yea Lord let my Tongue also Forget to speak that any it may know Till of such evils I convinced be And own my faults to all but more to thee For what can it avail the Sons of Men To seek applause by using thus their Pen From mortal flesh if thou Lord the erst while Upon them and their doings dost not smile But worm that I am wherefore do I name On this account mens praises or their fame As they are such to be to me extended For this my work where at they 'l be offended Partly because no Learning therein shineth Partly for that these Poems undermineth Those things which they do much more estimate Than what I here to them communicate Well then my Muse look for no commendation For this thy work from this crook'd Generation They are prepar'd for those things to requite thee As did that Troop which lately came to fright thee When they without producing any power Bereav'd thee of thy Fam'ly in an hour And drag'd thee up and down from place to place Till in the Goal a period took thy race Lord sith 't is thus advise me what to do Shall I speak now or wilt thou thereunto Appoint some other if but so it pleaseth Thy self 't is that thy servant greatly easeth But O my God th' hast taught me this to know That thou on me didst not in vain bestow Any good gift so but to thee I must Give an account thereof for thou art just But yet th' hast many which have spoke and cri'd Against those errors which are fortifi'd With many School-shifts and with Martial strength Whereby their life hath had so large a length As that through many Ages they have run Though some from thee to blame them did not shun So that may not I silent sit as well As now approach to publish or to tell What hath been told by others and is known Much more to many than can here be shown If that which those have done may free me from The exercise of thy free donation I could be well content but in this Meeter I call to mind the word once spoke to Peter When Christ to him a service did assign He strait look'd back on John that great Divine With expectation he should him excuse In part of that charge But stay here my Muse Thou must not equalize thy case with theirs Yet thou must faithful be in Christ's affairs Though thou' rt the Least yet mayst make thy abode ' Mongst those in England that dare speak for God But O the times are they not perilous To publish Truth in mind how quarellous Is this poor Age against such as would tear The hood of blind Devotion from their Ear And Eye that so the Antient Gospel-pathes Might extirpate our fears our jarrs our wraths But oh speak of this matter and Sedition Is charg'd upon us or a deep suspition We must lye under as if to the Peace Some danger by our freedom would increase Yea and our words such heavy things betoken As if within our Land they once be spoken 'T is strait supposed they cannot well be born But England will by th' weight thereof be torn So thought the High Priest once of Amos words And cry'd Amos conspired hath by swords And so commands the Prophet for his Life To fly and so avoid the dismal strife Which Truth occasioned Thus be it noted That alwayes Truth with Treason hath been spotted I mean by way of calumny that so Truths friends might find Authority their foe And by this means alas what floods of Lives Have been destroy'd and yet blest Truth survives Yet here I must needs grant that there hath been Too much of Tragical deportment seen In some that have the Truth pretendedly Embraced in its ancient purity Yea I do heartily this day desire That none that own Gods way may stir that fire Of war or strife Which by Gods Providence From this our Land 's but newly driven hence At least I pray if any have attempted To stir up war yet those may be exempted From punishment whose hearts are clear therefrom And let the guilty only bear their doom But