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A40846 A Famous conference between Pope Clement the Xth and Cardinal de Monte Alto concerning the late discovery of the Masse in Holy Scripture made by the worthy Father Patrick, an excellent engineer of the Church of Rome in England Clement X, Pope, 1590-1676. 1674 (1674) Wing F368; ESTC R7044 15,089 35

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Successor I am should have said the contrary and proclaimed them to be Vices He hath done enough to deserve our esteem for ever for he hath found the Masse in Holy Scripture This discovery will do us a great deal of good it will confirm our indulgence approve of our grants of liberty to sin It will secure and fortifie our Monastrical Garrisons and inspire into our noble Monks an invincible courage It will defeat and destroy all the enemies of our State and Kingdom 1 Cor. 3. 15. In a word I am in hopes that this new and seasonable discovery will furnish me with that by which I shall be able to maintain the Authority of St. Peter's Keyes in the World to enlarge my vast Dominions to embellish the palaces of pleasure where Peter took his delight and where I have caus'd his name to be engraven as testimones that I have them from him to encrease my Guards that are not neer so numerous as those that did wait upon St. Peter when he went from place to place to publish the Gospel to maintain his Triple Crown that In the Castle of St. Angelo and elsewhere St. Peter's Name is engraven he hath left me in possession It is very well quoth the Cardinal if it be true but I am in doubt whether it be so and that when the discovery be examin'd it will be found as vaine and groundless as your Temporall power upon those words here are two Swords or your Holinesses preeminency and Infallibility upon that other Text It shall lead you into all truth for your Holiness knows as you did lately avow that unless your possession were stronger and more aparant than your Right you should never obtaine what you now enjoy Your Holiness is obliged to the Ignorance of the Times and the sharpness of your Sword for your Dignity Infallibility and Papal power and not to any weak Text of holy Scripture It is true answered the Pope but this discovery is not to be doubted of and Father Patrick hath convinced me by sending to me a Bible turn'd into French by the Doctors of Lorrain printed at Paris 1664. for in the 3 ch verse 2. of Acts these blessed words are to be read of the Apostles saying Mass to the Lord Although this Translation be in French it is no less useful to England for that Nation naturally loves admires and embraces whatsoever appears to them in a French garb and countenance let it be never so rediculous It is easie to put the words into English as I understand Father Patrick hath already done and confirmed it by the Translation of the English Jesuites of Rheims who have done something more for they have very well mingled their holy Gloss with the obscure Text of Scripture so that we may with ease find in it all our Doctrines in express words Sure saith the Cardinal this Father Patrick hath most excellent Spectacles of an admirable temper seeing they have made him perceive things altogether Invisible for I have often read that passage but I must needs confess my dulness and the dimness of my sight and my Ignorance I could never perceive any such thing nor Imagine that the words could be so Translated for I find in the Greek Text 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where I have always Imagined that the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie to Minister and serve Now the service and Ministry Intended is to be known only by the circumstances of the Discourse the Latine Translations do thus render the words Ministrantibus illis Domino and the Version of Louvain in French Eux servans en leur Ministere au Seigneur that is they serving in their Ministry to the Lord the very Sequel of St. Lukes discourse discovers what he means by this service and the Ministration for he speaks of certain persons amongst whom were Barnabas and Paul that whiles they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ministring unto the Lord when they had Fasted the Holy Ghost warned them to separate from them Barnabas and Paul for the work unto which he had called them therefore he adds when they had fasted and prayed they laid their hands upon them and sent them away where the words when they had fasted and prayed do sufficiently discover the end and accomplishment of the Ministration attributed unto these men From whence we may easily conclude that St. Luke understands by their prayer and fasting acts of Devotion the accomplishmnt of what he had spoken of when he tells of these persons that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Syrian Translation and the Arabick do discover the Evangelists meaning for they have rendred these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whilst they were praying besides we may consider the quality and employments of these men concerned St. Luke tells us that they were Prophets and Doctors It is therefore to be supposed that when he sayes that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Fasting that they were employed about the Functions and Offices proper to their Callings that is they did minister unto the Lord by prophecying and teaching and that afterwards they did Fast and pray to obtain Gods blessing upon their Labours and Teaching I am certain Cajetan favours this Interpretation for he speaks thus upon this Text The nature of their service and ministry is not here mentioned but because St. Luke names them Prophets and Deacons we are to understand that their Ministry was performed by teaching and preaching Untill this moment may it please your Holiness I was of the opinion of Cajetan that these words do represent the Apostles employed about the duties of their Function and that they did minister to the Lord by teaching and preaching the word to the people by administring the Sacraments and by other acts of piety and devotion I beseech your Holiness to make me understand more perfectly this discovery and how this Reverend Priest hath found the Mass in these words and wherefore he hath given to them this Interpretation I can't very well tell you replyed the Pope I don't much trouble my self to understand the Scripture nor to seek into the Original Text You know very well that these sacred books have no better nor more Honourable place assigned them in our publick Assemblies but my footstool for I am above all Holy Scripture I must not therefore so much abase my self and my dignity to pry and search into it with too much curiosity as if I were to depend only upon that but I l ' tell you as I conceive how he comes to make this good Discovery He is by profession one of my Priests whose employment is daily to Transubstantiate the Bread and the Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ By degrees he is become such an excellent Artist in the Mistery of Transubstantiation that he hath found out an expedient how to Transubstantiate also this and other passages of Holy Scripture and change the words Ministring unto the Lord into these saying Mass
unto the Lord. I am very well pleased with his Ingenuity and no body must think this proceeding strange for if he hath the power to transform and cause a metamorphosis of solid substance and turn Bread and Wine into other things of so great a disparity as flesh bones and blood It is no wonder if Father Patrick this Ingenious Priest hath also transformed and changed one expression into another if he can by his breath alone make the glorious Body of Christ now ascended up into Heaven to be found in a few Crums of Bread and a few drops of Wine Why may not Patrick by the same art cause the Holy Mass to be found also in a passage of holy Scripture where it was never before If he can so far command him who is named the Word to come down from Heaven as often as he pleaseth he may with more ease obliege him to speak what and when he listeth In the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he hath met with a motive that hath Incited him to this perform this metamorphosis for he hath met with certain happy Spirits of the Primitive World who have Informed him that in the Council of Chalcedon this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was Interpreted by saying Mass therefore the Council furnishes him with an excellent proof upon which he depends much because in the Actr of this Council the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Translated by a Latine Author facere-missas perform Masses as Julian tells us who himself was of that Councill And because this word is so to be understood in the deeds of this Council therefore it hath the same signification by very good reason in the Acts of the Apostles Don't you think that this reasoning is right and good I admire quoth the Cardinal the subtilty of this Priest but I am afraid that some damned Heretick will draw from this kind of reasoning advantages against us and as such kind of people do already say that we affirm of our Mass that it is not what it appears to be that appears Bread but that it is nothing less then Bread so they will talk of this passage Translated by Father Patrick that it is not what it seems to be That in appearance the Mass is in the Translation but in the Original there is no shape of the Mass to be seen They will also say that the arguing from the Interpretation of the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 found in the Acts of the Counsel of Chalcedon is not just nor reasonable for a word may have a different signification in Ages so much at a distance from one another for that Counsel was held 400 years after the Apostles besides these Hereticks may say that the word Missa Mass that was then lately found out has since in this Age changed its signification for it is with the Mass as with men their Faces differ before they come to an age of understanding look upon a man in his Chilhood and consider him afterwards in his old Age and you shall searce know him so it is with this Name If you look upon it in its first rise and afterwards take notice of it in the glorious appearance that hath been given to it in these last Ages and you will scarce believe them to be the same you will find a strange alteration It may be said of the Mass as of Noahs Ark and Theseus Ship that it was the same and yet not the same for the letters syllables and pronunciation is the same but the use and signification is not the same then it did signifie the dismission of the people or the leave to depart out of the Congregation granted to the Catechumenes who were dismist after Sermon or to the Rest of the Faithful sent away after the Administration of the Sacraments at the end of Divine Service Then they did say Facere missum Catechumenis or Facere missum fidelibus that is to dismiss the Catechumenes or the Faithful this word did then signifie generally all the publick Service of God at the end of which this dismission was thus performed Missa est So that then they called the publick Prayers of the Church the reading and preaching of the Word of God and the administration of the Sacraments by the Name of Mass these things Bellarmin hath confest Since the word is strangely changed to signifie the holy Sacrament of the Altar which is now its ordinary meaning Some therefore may say that in the Translation of the Counsel of Chalcedon to express the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was never employed in the meaning that Reveend Father Patrick employes it in the 3 chap. of the Acts but doubtless this excellent Abbot so well kill'd in Transmutation can solve all the difficulties that may be made against him and his Interpretation But what benefit doth your Holiness imagine that we receive from this bold attempt of Father Patrick I conceive that he may have well encreased the glory of the Mass by raising it upon such a noble Throne and placing it to be seen upon the Theatre of Holy Scriptures He doth also by this meanes discover its profound Antiquity for it seems to be far more ancient than Christ and his holy Apostles for he may easily prove by this Word that all the Priests under the Law did say Mass very reverendly as well as the Briests under Luke 1. 23. the Gospel for St. Luke tells us that Zachary had accomplisht 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we must for the time to come Translate The dayes of his saying Mass And St Paul represents Moses sprinking the blood upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb 9. 21. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we must also render thus All the Vessels employed in saying Mass In the same place Heb. 10. 11 the Apostle tells us that every Priest did daily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is according to this good Translation Say Mass and elsewhere he discovers how Christ doth continually say Mass in Heaven for in the same Ep. to the Heb. he tells us that we have an high Priest that is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty of God in Heaven 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that means saying Mass in the Holy places I conceive that the Holy Angels are Christs Deacons and Clarks in Heaven to answer him because in the same Epistle they are named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are to understand by these words Spirits that say Mass Your Holiness that hath communication with Heaven may know something more of these Heavenly matters Well replyed the Pope we have just cause to expect the speedy conversion of all the Hereticks and if Father Patrick hath boasted of having made many a good Proselyte and turned them from protestantisme to popery although it was then but a Lye he may have said so by the spitit of prophecy such kind of deceits and falsehoods are to be considered and excused as so many pious frauds
design'd to bring back to the profession of the truth the poor deluded Hereticks for my part I conceive that he did foresee the conversion of all those people that will now doubtless embrace my Faith and profession for they have often promised to come to Mass if we can but shew them the Mass in Holy Scripture Now they must of necessity acknowledg it to be there mauger all their obstinacy we may therefore hope to see whole troops of men return again to the bosom of my Holy Church If after so clear a convict on and this undeniable discovery there be any so obstinate as to shut their eyes and refuse to acknowledg the Mass I will thunder against him from my Vatican and send him to Hell before his time For my part I find quoth the Cardinal that he hath much oblieged the Civil Magistrates and Princes in giving this meaning to the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for we must now look upon them as persons who have liberty to say Mass for St. Paul names them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is according to this new signification Singers or bablers of Masses unto God Now I think of it all our Roman Religion is mightily obliged to him for he hath shewn us an expedient how to confirm all the Doctrines of our Holy Church without much difficulty in placing them in express words in Holy Scripture We may now seek the passages that have any colour of such Doctrines and Translate them according to this good model of Father Patrick for example Christ Mat. 16. 18. said to St. Peter in the Gospel Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church there we maintain that Christ hath granted and established the Popes Authority upon Peter and his Successors But because these words are not so plain and clear for our purpose as we could well wish why may not we make it plainer and Translate it in express words that may confute all the Hereticks in this manner Thou art Pope and upon this pope I will build my Church Your Fancy quoth the Pope is very good and makes much for our purpose Doubtless all Christendom admires the wit and piety of this Ingenious Father and desires that he may be well rewarded for his worth and cunning we shall have our Court thronged with the Embassadors of several Princes to sue for his promotion and reward for my part I am already very much enclined to grant to Father Patrick my most special Favours I do at present free him from the troublesom Visit of purgatory after his Decease and Decree that his Soul may leap directly into Heaven without stop or hindrance We have granted this priviledge to many that are not so deserving as this most Reverend Father and it is but reason that he should obtain this benefit from the Mass seeing that he hath been so great a Friend to her We commonly say Mass to free poor Souls from the flames of purgatory and to draw them into a more temperate and more pleasant abode why may not the Mass from which he hath deserv'd a good Reward hinder him from entring into this Incommodious burning I will also reward him in his life-time I will enoble his pate with a Cardinals Cap I conceive his head is bigg enough and of a sise able to bear this Covering with a bon meen When his Holiness had uttered these words he began to bethink himself and muse upon what he had said well quoth he rubbing and shaking his head there is something comes into my mind that damps all my affections for Father Patrick this subtle Wit that hath found the Mass in Holy Writ contrary to all appearance may also by chance find by his cunning and working fancy how to make Father Patrick a Pope and by this means pull me out of my seat and tumble me down of my Throne as an unlawfull Pope This apprehension sinks into my mind do what I can and spoils all the affection that I had conceived for this Father so that a small matter might cause me to undertake his Destruction As the Cardinal was opening his Lips to return an answer in steps a Gentleman of the popes Bed-chamber to acquaint his Holiness that there were without a croud of persons that did most passionately entreat for audience of his good Holiness When the pope had commanded them to come in e found them to Be some of his Well-wisher that came to advertise him of a great Tumult that had hapned in the Vatican Church between two comely Ladies the one named her self Vulgata Latim the other was named Madam Franca Versio of the City of Louvain two persons of very good account as they were at their Devotions they quarrell'd with that Fury that they were ready to tear one another to pieces Madam Vulgata required the precedency because she had been enobled by the Council of Trent and could shew a very authentick patent for her Nobility but Madam Franca Versio could produce no such Antiquity but pretended that she was to have the precedency of the former because she had been enobled dignified and blessed with a most Divine Berne a She-beauty esteemed and admired all over the World as a Goddess she being the only Mother that had bore in her Womb such a Celestial production as the Goddess Missa She resolved not to yeild an ace to her Sister Madam Vulgata Latina but to dispute the preeminency and the predency with her to the uttermost and the rather because she was backt and assisted by all her Countrymen who did not much favour Madam Latina because they understood not her speech As soon as these persons had represented the case to his Holiness the door being open in steps an old Roman Lady my Lady Tradition she was attired as the Gibeonites are represented in holy Scripture when they came to make peace with the Children of Israel at their entrance into the promised Land her Gown was old and moth-eaten her shoes patcht with many old pieces her face painted with many wrinkles her food was dry bread and mouldy bisket all her Garments did bespeak her to be but a durty nasty loathsom and old Joane nevertheless she received the Respects of all the company at her entrance because she did look with a grave countenance and affect such marks and liveries of Antiquity and Age although she was but young and of a late Birth she accessed his Holiness without any Ceremony because she was very well known to him and familiar with him she had tutered him and did yet furnish him with very good directions This Lady Tradition with a grim and sad countenance soon burst forth into bitter complaints against Father Patrick the French Abbot and the Irish Priest for having committed a most unjust robbery and rape and debaucht and carried away from her dwelling one of her best and most beautiful Guests my Lady Missa she represented to his Holiness that he had just cause
to fear further Injuries and wrongs from this Father and that she was afraid lest he should also debauch her other Guests and perswade them to leave her desolate and by that means take away all her livelihood and being for without them she is not able to subsist As she was opening the Case and accusing of Father Patrick all her Guests or Lodgers came into the Room together to make also their several complaints and assist their old Landlady in her accusation The Marquess of Purgatory with all his Attendants went formost The Count Meritum and Viscount Free will with a long Train of Followers fill'd the Room where his Holiness was These Noble Persons that I have named are all Officers of our mother the Holy Church of Rome The Marquess of Purgatory is the great Purveyor and principal Cook to him it belongs to see that the Pot may boil well Count Meritum is the great Treasurer of the Catholick Church for he hath in his custody all the Riches and Treasures by which he intends to purchase the Kingdom of Heaven Viscount Free-will is the Fac-totum or Governour of the House he is the Porter or Usher to introduce or shut out whom he pleaseth He is also the Steward Controller of the mother Church for he disposeth of all at his pleasure He is a capricious and humersome Knave nevertheless the Catholick Church i● very well pleased with his services and cannot be perswaded to leave him Assoon as my Lord Marquess of Purgatory appeared every mothers son in the Room began to tremble for fear for he was cloathed with a fiery Garb most terrible to the eye out of his mouth burst forth flashes of extraordinary fire so that every one made room to him and was afraid to come near him but when the spectators had well viewed him they perceived that his terrible Countenance had nothing of reality and that this fire and the seeming flames were the effects only of their deluded imagination My Lord merit was clad in such a Garb and appeared with such a pleasant mean that he was more able to move laughter than fear for he seemed to be proud and high-minded His Countenance Behaviour and Courage was much like that of a French Coxcomb or of a proud and stately Spaniard He did blow and puff as a man out of breath and with Eyes full of contempt he did speak to every one Isa 65. 1. Come not near me for I am more holy than thou In his hand he held a large Purse full of good Counters with which men do commonly reckon with God Almighty to see how much he is in their debt My Lord Free-will appeared in another Attire and Behaviour not so ridiculous but no less extravagant for his inconstancy and unsetled Courage did make him appear very simple for he stood now upon one ley then upon another He had got a Switzers Garbe and Attire of several Colours to express the diversity and variableness of our Free-will but that which was most remarkable in his appearance was that he had got a Steeple upon his head that did bear a Cross with a VVether-cock on the top to represent how that in the business of our Salvation signified by the Cross It was in his power to turn himself any ways At first all these Noble Lords were ready to enter into a cruel dispute and quarrel because they all pretended to the priviledge of speaking first my Lord Marquess had a large wide mouth as great as that of an Oven and much heat to animate his discourse and therefore a greater advantage to speak first than the rest my Lord merit did produce his worth and excellency and therefore that he deserved to be the spokesman my Lord Free-will alledged that merit was indebted to him for the advantages by which he pretended to the priviledge of speaking first for there could be no merit without Free-will To please 'um all the Pope commanded 'um to speak all together and told 'um that he was well able to understand all their discourses together That although he appeared but with one Head he had got one that was worth many for it was able to bear three Crowns That it were to do him wrong to fancy that he had less ability than the Beast of the Revelations that had Seven Heads and therefore could understand the Speeches of seven persons And that as he was the Head of the Church he must needs have this power of an Head to understand the complaints and feel the griefs of several members at once when they endure pain when the Pope had granted to them this permission and leave to speak all at once every one began to declare their complaints to this effect That Father Patrick had done them all the greatest injury that could be by divorcing and carrying away the Mass their dear Companion from them That they had long lodged together peaceably with much unity and love at the Palace of my Noble Lady my Lady Traditio That to part with their Companion they could as well part with Heart and Soul and therefore that they did reckon that Father Patrick had done them a notable prejudice to place the Mass in Holy Scripture without them That they had as good reason to pretend to that Honour as well as she for there be some places of Holy Scripture that favour as much their being as that place doth the Mass The Marques of Purgatory alledg'd a passage of the first of Corinthians where these words are to be found 1 Cor. 3. 15. VVh● are saved as by fice why said he may not one add to the translantion by the fire of Purgatory Meritum brought forth a passage of the Revelations where the persons are mentioned Rev. 3. 4. VVhom God will cause to walk in white Cloathing because they are worthy He desired that one might render the words because they do merit it My Lord Free will fancied that the passage of Denteronomy made for him where God told the Children of Israel Deut. 36. 40. That tbe VVord was near them in their mouth and in their Heart to do it vvherefore said he may not vve translate it is in thy Free-vvill to do it Therefore every one of them did conclude that his Holiness must needs if he will deal impartially do of two things one either restore the Mass to its old Lodging and former Camerades or grant to them to dwell with her under the same Roof In the heat of the dispute they fell from reasons to threatnings against his Holiness in case that they did not receive due satisfaction for the Marques of Purgatory threatned to be even with his Holiness when his Soul should enter into his Dominions if he did not grant his desire and do Justice for he that frees others by his authority from burning in Purgatory cannot exempt himself from those Torments Therefore he threatned to cast so much Brimstone and combustible matter into the scorching Flames that he would