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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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hauock he made in all the the Churches subiect vnto him in Italy Sicileye and Sardinia and yet for all this Peter drewe not the sworde for hee yet remembred how bitterly his master had once checked him before for fighting Anno Dom. 700. Iustinianus the Emperour saith Diaconus commaunding Constantine the Pope to come vnto him honourably receiued him Constantine and sent him backe whom he beeing prostrated on the ground desired to be an intercessor vnto God for his sinnes renewed all the priuiledges of his Church why then the priuiledges were first giuen by the Emperour and not by God himselfe But that the Emperour fell downe at the Bishops feete it was done in respect not of his greatnesse but of his godlinesse a thing vsually done by great princes vnto ancient Monkes and Hermites renowned for their strict life and rare pietie whereof all Christian histories yeelde vs store of examples and this to be soe doth his request of intercession vnto GOD for his sinnes manifestly shewe But to returne againe to our practise about Anno Domini 690. another Iustinian the Emperour sent Zacharias his Protospatharius or high Constable into Italy for to bring Sergius the Bishop of Rome Sergius vnto him in Irons because he woulde not subscribe vnto a lewde counsell helde by him at Constantinople Sabell and he had done it if that the Emperiall Armie in Italy what for hatred of the Emperour and the good will of the Pope and his cause had not speedily marched to Rome to withstand his apprehension yet this Emperour did afterwarde renewe for Constantine the Bishop a confirmation of all the p●iuiledges of the Sea of Rome This Constantine was the first Bishop of Rome saith Omphrius the newe Chronicler of the Popes Qui in os ausus est resistere which durst resist the Emperours of Constantinople to their faces for he at the importunate petition of the people of Rome who requested it with great outcries decreede that the name of Philippicus the Emperour shoulde not be mentioned at the Aulter nor in anie writing or recordes nor his image set vp in their Churches because he had commaunded the Bishop to consent vnto his Arrianisme and the abolishing of the Images of Saintes But Paulus Diaconus who liued neare that time writeth that statuit populus the people decreede and not the Pope About Anno Domini 7●5 Leo Isauricus the Emperour commaunded Gregory the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the second to destroy all the images of the Saintes the which he refused to doe But although the Emperour did execute many therefore and about that matter banished the patriarch of Constantinople and had sundry times practised the Popes death both couertly and also by open forces causing the Eparch to bring his Armie before the Citie of Rome where he was repelled by the Lombardes yet woulde the Pope by no meanes be wonne to consent that a new Emperour should be chosen in Ital●e the which was now in a good forwardnesse the people hauing slaine Martin the gouernour of the Citie of Rome and his sonne the Lieuetenant of Campania and the Citizens of Rauenna the Eparch and had chosen them almost in euerie Citie newe officers But Gregorie woulde by no meanes consent thereunto but wonne them to be quiet with much a doe But when the Emperour woulde not desist from forcing of his edict for the abolishment of Images vppon the Romanes and the Italians Gregorie the third successor vnto the other helde a Counsell in Italie wherein he excommunicated the Emperour and then the Citizens of Rome and all the teritorie about called by the name of the Duchy of Rome reuolted from the Emperour who was negligent in defending them against the Lombardes that had sweeped him almost out of all Italie from Rome to the Alpes and soe the Pope became prince of the Citie and Duchie of Rome S. Sigon de regno Italiae and subiect vnto no man about the yeare 730. And to establish the state of the Romane principalitie by stopping of titles Zacharias the Pope wonne his Creator Pepine the french king to spoyle Aistulfus the king of the Lombardes of Rauenna by right whereof beeing the siege of the Gotish kingdome and the emperiall exarchate in Italy The Pope cannot depose princes he claimeth tribute of the Romanes and for to bestowe it vppon him and his successors for to take away all quarrell for euer Thus ye see that the Bishoppes of Rome were alwaies subiect vnto the temporall princes of the Citie vntill such time as the reuolting people had created him their prince as all other Bishops in ciuill soueraigne so that the Popes are not exempted of temporall subiection by the institution of GOD but by the election of men as the high priestes became to be soueraignes after the returne of the Iewes from Babylon there beeing ordained to be the temporall prince Then seeing by the ordinance of God the Pope was a subiect and by the creation of men beeing made a soueraigne onely ouer some certaine prouinces I cannot see howe eyther by Gods Law or mans hee can rightly claime anie authoritie to depose Christian princes at his pleasure no more then any other subiecte can his soueraigne or seuerall soueraignes one another to grant eyther of which is soe absurde that I shoulde shewe my selfe to haue verie little witte if I shoulde goe aboute to refute eyther as though any man that had common sense woulde doubte of them For to reason that Sixtus Quintus because hee is secular soueraigne ouer these prouinces which are called the patrimonie of Peter may therefore depose all other Christian princes is as good an argument as if I shoulde saie ELIZABETH is Queene of England therefore she may depose the prince of the patrimonie and all other Christian princes So that by prouing my first proposition that Christ gaue vnto Peter and his successors no soueraignetie secular I haue also conuinced the seconde that they can not depriue Christian princes of their principalities The Pope cannot depose the temporall soueraine Neyther is the Popes claime anie thing aduanced by those two sayinges of Christ vnto Peter which I doe finde alleadged by Gregorie the seuenth when hee first of anie Pope deposed Henry the fourth Emperour as the warrant of his doings Plati The first is feede my sheepe wherein hee did not sayde Gregorie exempt Kinges And the other whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on the earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer thou doest loose in the earth shall be loosed in Heauen For I haue proued before that Christ his kingdome was spirituall and soe a spirituall charge of soules hee committed to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and their successors and noe Empyre ouer the bodies and goods of anie men But Doctor S●u●ders takes greate holde of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Poimaine which the Apostle vseth when Christ bad Peter the second time to feede his sheepe for that
the superexcellent powers not only for wrath but also for conscience as we that are bounde to payment of tribute Neyther let vs so behaue our selues that we for our wickednes and lewde factes doe deadly hate the lawe and looke for the reuenging sword but rather so leade our liues that we may get praise of the power and magistrate And then after he hath very eloquently shewed by many similitudes that they ought not to blame the harmlesse of the sword but to impute the smart thereof vnto their owne faultinesse he leaueth as he saith the subiectes and turneth his speach vnto the Emperour and the gouernours for ye must vnderstand that this oration was pronounced in the presence of the people of Nazanse trembling for feare of the Emperours great displeasure and also of the angry Emperour and his officers least he should be thought these are his words to deale altogether partially eyther not seeming to haue the like care ouer them to whome he ought more hoofully to looke vnto as they that could do most either harme or good as he had of the other inferiour sorte or else to haue lost through feare or shame the freedom that he had from Christ not daring to admonish them of their duetie because of their great dignity and power And then he vseth the words alleadged by our aduersaries what wil ye not be cōtent c. But I doe not doubt but your maiestie wi●l take this my free speaking in good part as a holy sheepe of my holy flocke and a weaneling of the great sheepeheard And then he vseth very effectuall reasons to moue him to mercy and finally falleth to pitifull obtestations by his owne hoary head his immaculate priesthood which the Angels c. by Christ his bitter passion c. in most suppliant sort without any one word that any whit sauoureth or soundeth of authority power or commaund wisely and godly teaching the subiectes duetifull obedience and the Emperour and his officers mercy and moderation in gouernment Furthermore the better to boult out the trueth in the controuersy I thinke it will not be amisse to search out whether in the old lawe the high priest who was a type and figure of Christ and head of all the priestes and had the supreme ministration of the mysteries of God The high priest subiect to the temporall magistrate and in whose name of Pontifex the Bishop of Rome hath succeeded was subiect vnto the ciuill magistrate or noe And that he was is plainely proued in the 2. Cap. of 3. Kings where Salomon deposeth Abiather the high priest of his office and confirmeth him into Anathotb because he had gone about to make Adoniah King and also told him that he had deserued to die but he would not put him to death because he had borne the Arke of the Lord God before his father Dauid and had beene a continuall partaker of all his fathers troubles Then if Salomon might lawfully execute the high priest for treason there is no doubt but that the high priestes were subiect vnto the kinges as vnto their soueraignes But although I will passe ouer in silence the putting to death of the high priest Achimelech and Azarias by Saul and Ioas because they will cauill they were tyrannicall yer I will stay a little vpon the suppliant speach of Achimelech because it argueth subiection in the speaker Saul vpon the occasion of Doeg sent for Achimelech the sonne of Achitob 1. Reg. 22. 19. Cap. all the hole howse of his father being priestes which were in Nob who came euery man vnto the king and Saul saide Listen thou sonne of Achitob who answered I am heere my Lord. And Saul saide why hast thou and the sonne of Ishai conspired against me and hast giuen him being a traitour and so continuing to this day bread and a sword and hast asked counsaile of God for him that he might rise vp against me And Achimelech answering the king thus spake Let this crime be farre from me neyther let the king suspect any such thing against his bondman nor of any man of the whole howse of my father For thy bondman knew neither lesse nor much of this matter c. Doth there not appeare in these wordes almost a seruile subiection of the high priestes vnto the king for by what baser terme can he call himselfe then his bondman or by what higher and more soueraigne name could he speake vnto the king then calling him his Lord a word that doth signifie the prince to haue his subiectes in such seruilitie that Octauian the Emperour that did accept the names of Augustus or diuine of father of his country c. to haue his name sworne by and his images sacrificed vnto as a God 19 Cap. 2. Crome Yet wold neuer admit as Suetonius and Dion doe affirme the title of Lord but abhorred it as reprochfull although now time and custome haue mollified the worde But that the high priest had nothing to din matters of state we haue it set downe in flat wordes in the 19. of the second Paralip or the Chronicles where this we doe reade But Amarias the priest and your high priest shall be president or chiefe in those thinges which doe appertaine to God but Zebadias the sonne of Ishmaell who is captaine of the house of Iuda shall be ouer those workes which doe belong vnto the king But now that we haue sufficiently proued the subiection of the high priest of the Iewes let vs come to Christ himselfe by pretence of being whose vicar and deputie in earth the Pope claimeth this prowde prerogatiue of pearching ouer princes Christ no earthlie ki●g and discusse whether that he as Christ and Messias for I thinke the Pope doth not chalenge to be Gods but Christes vicar was an earthly Monarch or noe that he was none it is apparantly prooued by his refusing to giue iudgement on a woman accused of adulterie Iohn 8. and also by denying himse●fe to bee a competent iudge betweene two brothers that contended about an inheritance And finally in that he confessed vnto Pilate in expresse words that his kingdome was not of this world Iohn 18. As for the paying of foure drachmes for himselfe Peter at Capernaum I thinke with Theophylactus and some other that it was for the halfe sycle which is two drachmes due vnto the Lord for euerie man that was twentie yeares of age as we reade in Exodus rather then for tribute due to the Emperour because mee thinketh it doth better agree with Christes interrogation to Peter what thinkest thou Peter of whome doe the kinges of the earth take tribute of their owne children or of strangers and he sayde of strangers Iesus sayde vnto him then are the children free As though he shoulde haue sayde This expositi●n is vtterly repugnant to the meaning and purpose of Christ as the godly reader doth well vnderstād If Kinges children doe not pay tribute to their fathers
worde saith hee signifieth also to gouerne It doth indeede properlie signifie to keepe sheepe as we terme it wherein wee include not onelie the feeding of them but also the care of looking to them that they take noe harme the dressing of them when they be ill and all other thinges belonging to the charge and duetie of a sheepehearde and properlie no other signification hath it but by a Metaphore to shewe with howe greate care mildenesse and lenitie kinges ought to gouerne their subiectes Homer and Plato doe often call kinges sheepeheardes of the people and so likewise the sacred scriptures In the twentith of the Actes we haue the same wordes where we reade Therefore looke vnto your selues and the whole flocke wherein the holie Ghost hath placed you Bishoppes and ouerseers in greeke poimaine the Church of God which he hath purchased him with his bloode Nowe that the Apostles or any Bishoppes had any secular power Pighius himselfe doth denie as long as the temporall princes had not receiued the Gospell so that this worde can by no meanes importe anie earthly superioritie And in this Oration Paule doth plainely declare what kinde of kingdome Christes is when hee saith to gouerne the Church of God which he purchased with his bloode for he purchased none with his bloode but t●●s spirituall kingdome for as GOD hee was possessed o● the Empyre of the whole worlde from the beginning But the place of binding and losing we haue examined alreadie and proued that it cannot be vnderstoode otherwise then Christ himselfe doth interpret it in the twenteth of Iohn whose sinnes ye shall remitte are remitted and whose sinnes yee shall retaine are retained and a receiuing into the Church and kingdome of heauen and a shutting out of it And therefore he saith whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and not shall be bounde in earth least any man should dreame that he gaue Peter secular power ouer earthly Empires and that all the commandements and ordinances and decrees of his successors touching worldly matters should be receiued and kept throughout the whole world Neither if the Pope had any such authoritie giuen him by any generall Counsell A general counsell cannot depose Princes as I am assured he hath not for as for the canon made in the counsell of Laterane we will anone make a large seuerall treatise thereof were it good and sufficient to binde all Princes to obedience because it lieth not in the power of a generall counsell to dispose of secular matters For seeing generall counsells doe altogether consist of persons ecclesiasticall and they doe allow noe temporall prince any voice therein and that all the Byshoppes that are assembled there do sit as Byshops spirituall Lords not as temporal that they be secular subiects not soueraignes that the kingdom of the Church is a distincte kingdom as al the Catholickes say from the kingdomes of the world It is as absurd to holde that they can makes lawes touching temporalities to be obserued of all temporall Princes vnder temporall paines as if a madde man would affirme that the assembly of the three states of France may ordaine statutes for the Queenes maiesty of England hir realme and that they are bound in conscience to obserue all lawes made there For doubtlesse the temporall and the ecclesiasticall kingdomes are as seuerall kingdomes as Englande France which haue more alliance together then the other two because they are both secular both bodilie both ruled by one sword but of the other the one is spirituall the other bodily the one of the worlde the other of heauen the one swayed by the ciuill and materiall sworde ●he other by the spirituall the one slaying the soule the other the body But now I would not haue any fond man to imagine that I doe goe about to spoile the temporall prince of his high prerogatiue in ordaining of holsome lawes for the maintenance of the true faith of Christ and the sincere obseruation of all the rest of his holy commandementes the which I doe thinke him bound in conscience to doe but that I doe firmely beleeue and openly professe that by the right giuen him by God he may punish all persons both ecclesiasticall and temporall within his dominions that shall offend either in faith or manners by fine imprisonment banishment confiscation of landes and goodes attainder of blood death or finally any other temporall paines as the noble princes of this land haue alwaies vsed to doe And therefore Iustice Brian in Decimo of Henry the seauenth doth call the King a mixt person for he is saith Brian a person vnited with the priests of holy Church But I denie him the administration of gods holy sacraments and the exercise of the spirituall sworde which I doe appropriate vnto the ecclesiasticall officers Wherefore much lesse can the Byshoppes in a generall counsell giue away the crownes of their Kinges seeing according to the afore rehearsed rule of the Canon law noe man can giue that right vnto another which he hath not himselfe But if there were ordained a bodie politicke of all the Christian princes and states what they beeing assembled in a counsell generall might doe is annother question the which we will leaue to bee disputed of them that shall see this happe institution And in the meane time they must pardon vs if we doe not lightly beleeue that the Pope hath power to depose Princes seeing wee can finde no warrant therefore neither in the scriptures the auncient counsells the olde fathers the practise of the Church of God neither before Christ neither seauen hundreth years after him although there raigned many Idolatrous hereticall and wicked Princes Of the Iewish Kinges verye few were good but rather such men as GOD had streightly commaunded that they shoulde not spare if they were their Brothers or such a friende as hee looued as dearely as his owne soule but that his hand should bee first vppon him to stone him to death and yet wee doe not reade that any one of them was deposed by the high Priestes or his subiectes armed against him by them And yet were they so zealous men of their dignitie that they would in noe wise suffer the King to vsurpe ought vppon him in so much that one of them openly withstoode Ozias the King The history of king Ozias handled that woulde vnlawfully execute his office in offring incense vnto GOD neither doth the expelling of this King out of the temple by rhe Priestes because God had for his proude part stricken him with leprosie and that thereupon hee sequestred himselfe from companie and left the gouernement of matters of state vnto his sonne prooue ought against the prerogatiue of Princes The text saith 2. Coro 26.20 that they caused hastily to depart thence he was euen compelled to goe out as the English authour of the ecclesiasticall discipline doth inferre For hee was not expelled out of