false that full proofe cannot be made of all articles of faith out of scripture In the former sence there is not anie protestant that hath taught that the scriptures expresselie contayne all articles of faith and this you papists knowe For Eckius reprooueth the Lutherans for that they will haue nothinge beleeued but which is expresse scripture or can be prooued out of scriptures So that your owne side perceiue we beleeue thinges that are not expresselie sett downe in scriptures but nothinge which hath not a iust proofe out of it CHAMP The cloude is in your owne brayne and not in my position which is neither darke not doubtfull but to you who perceiuinge it to presse and pinch woulde gladlie finde some doubtefullnes therein For if you had not been either blinde or blinde foulded you would haue seen that the position denyeth full proofe of all articles of faith out of scriptures in the same sence and meaninge that you professe to mayntaine the affirmatiue and not onlie the expresse contayninge them in so manie wordes or sillabels Manuall proofe of the Catholike position The articles which protestants beleeue to be of faith as well as Catholikes and yett are not contayned expresselie in holy scripture are manie but we will geue instance but onlie in a fewe First that there are three distinct persons and one only substance or essence in God Secondlie that the second and thirde persons are of the same substance and of equall glorie with the first Thirdelie that the thirde person proceedeth from the second and from the first Fowerthly that there are two distinct and compleat natures in our Sauiour Christ and but one onlie person Fiftlie that there are in him two willes and two operations to witt of God and man aboute all which haue been diuerse heresies as is wel known to the learned And thoughe all these articles haue most true grounde and proofe in holy scriptures yett are they not so expressely contayned therein as they may be fullie prooued by them alone One example shall serue for al to prooue the sonne of God to be consubstantial or of one substance with the father the catholikes doe alleage and trulie this testimonie I and the father are one yett because there are moe means of being one theÌ„ in substaÌ„ce as namelie to be of one wil desire affectioÌ„ of which sorte of vnitie speciallie the Arrians did expound this place alleaginge for themselues that testimonie I pray that they al may be one as thou father in me and I in thee that they also in vs may be one Which cannot be vnderstoode of vnitie in substance Therefore this testimonie without the interpretation of the churche which is the piller of truth doth not fullie prooue the father and the sonne to be one in substance The like may be sayd of the other articles here mentioned PILK What a gap you opeÌ„ to Gentilisme Iudaisme and Heresie when you deny the maine groundes of christianitie to haue a full proofe from the scriptures but require the helpe of tradition and authoritie of the churche as if the authoritie of the church woulde preuaile with them with whom the scriptures will not CHAMP Are you a doctor in diuinitie and thinke a greate gappe to be opened to Gentilisme and Iudaiâ—me by denyinge the mistery of the blessed Trinitie to be fullie and clearlie prooued out of the scriptures only would you if you had to doe with them goe aboute to prooue that mysterie either out of the newe testament to the Iewes or out of the whole Bible to the Gentiles It would well become your iudgment indeede and suteth well with the rest of your learned discourses But whatsoeuer you would doe in that case I knowe that noe man indued with one dramme of witt would thinke that kinde of proofe to haue anie force with them that receiue not the scriptures thoughe they were as cleare and expresse as you coulde desire them to be And a for the gap opened hereby to heresie Lett the worlde that seeth so manie sects of heresies spronge out of one Luther iudge whether your paradoxe of the sufficiencie of onlie scripture without respecte to the churches authoritie and iudgment hath not brought them forth and begotten them Lett the example of Legatt testifie whether your position or myne open the gap wider to heresie Finallie lett all the heresies in the worlde witnes whether the contemninge of the churches authoritie in expoundinge of holy scriptures hath not been the mother of them all Take away therefore your paradoxe of the fulnes of scriptures and put my position of the necessitie of the churches iudgment in declaringe the true sence and meaninge of the scriptures in practise and the gap to all heresie will quicklie be so fast shutt that shee will neuer more appeare in the worlde PILK But in defence of that royall and holy faith we are verie confident that all these articles expressed by you haue both a true and full proofe from them The trinitie of persons in the vnitie of one essence is plainlie taught otherwise what man or Angell durst prie into that maiestie lest he were oppressed of glorie There be three that beare witnes in heauen Father worde holy ghost and these three are one saith S. Iohn And Mathewe 28. Baptise them in the name of the Father the sonne and the holy Ghost Which places as they prooue the vnitie of the essence in trinitie of persons so likewise doe they theire comon glorie because to be and to be glorious in the God heade is all one as S. Aug. argueth The procession of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is fullie taught Io. 15. 26. where he is termed the Spiritt of truth that proceedeth froÌ„ the father which verie worde S. Ioh. vseth of the to w-edged sworde proceedinge out of the mouth of Christe which is nothinge but the spiritt of his lippes wherwith he shall striks the wicked as Esay prophesieth cap. 11. 4. And with the breath of his lippes he shall slay the wicked And to shewe his procession as well from the sonne as from the father Christe breathed vppon his disciples and sayde Receiue the holie ghost and for that he is called the spiritt of the sonne Gal. 4. 6. And because yee are sonnes God hath sent forth the spirit of his sonne into your hearts which crieth Abba father That there be two destinct natures in Christ one onlie person Esay prophesied cap. 1. 14. Behoulde the Virgin shall conceiue and beare a sonne and shee shall call his name Immanuell And like Ierc. cap. 23. 6. In his dayes Iuda shall be saued and Israell shall will safelie and this is the name whereby they shall cal him the lorde our righteousnes which S. Iohn fulfilled Io. 1. 14. And the worde was made flesh and dwelte amonge vs and we sawe the glorie thereof as the glorie of the onlie begotten of the father full of grace and truth of
thinge deliuered in the worde CHAMP That is properlie an article of faith that is beleeued for diuine authoritie whether it be written or noe as were all these thinges the fathers beleeued before the lawe written And because we beleeue the bookes of Genesis for example and the rest of the holy Byble to be written by Gods reuelation therefore doe we beleeue them to be holy scripture and to containe gods worde Which therefore is properlie an article of faith no lesse then the misterie of the blessed trinitie beleeued for the same authoritie PILK Vppon this grounde I answere first in generall that none of these points are articles of faith CHAMP Vppon such a false grounde you are like to builde a good answere Is it no article of faith with you that the booke of Genesis is written by gods reuelation Tell me I pray you vnto what kinde of knowledge or assent you will reduce it I will confesse you a maister in diuinitie if you can make it well appeare by what other act of knowledge or vnderstandinge we assent vnto this veritie besides the act of faith Which if you cannot performe as assuredlie you cannott you must needes see this your first answere to be noe answere att all but a meere supposall of a manifest falsitie PILK Secondlie I answere to euerie one in particular I answere to the the first That all canonicall bookes and euerie parcell thereof be such is prooued out of themselues For besides that the ould testament prooueth the newe and the newe the old for whatsoeuer we read in the ould testament the same is founde in the gospell and whatsoeuer is founde in the gospell that is deduced from the authoritie of the ould testament as Hierome speaketh so in speciall euerie booke prooueth it selfe both by its owne light as formerlie was shewed and by the testimonie of Christ of the Prophets and Apostles that were the secretaries of the holy ghost The testimonie of our Sauiour Christ. Luc. 24. 44. These are the wordes which I spake vnto you while I was with you that all must needes be fulfilled which were written of me in the lawe of Moyses and in the prophetts and in the psalmes Of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3. 16. All scripture is geuen by the inspiration of God and is profitable to doctrine to reproofe to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes Of S. Peter the 2. epist 1. 21. The prophecie came not in olde tyme by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost doe abundantlie prooue the bookes of the olde testament to be canonicall besides that there is not anie of them out of which some testimonie is not in the newe testament extant CHAMP Your second answere is as much to the purpose as your first Neither the old testament proouing the newe nor contrariwise vnles the one be beleeued before Yea you make your selfe ridiculous to all men by such a naturall or circulare proofe vnles you suppose the assured beleefe of some parte before For example if one shoulde demaunde of you how you knowe or why you doe beleeue those wordes of our Sauiour which you cite out of the 24 of S. Luke either to haue been spoken by him or written by S. Luke would you say that they euidentlie prooue themselues so to be surely this you must say both accordinge to your doctrine here and accordinge to the necessitie you putt your selfe into by denyinge the authority of tradition and of the churches testimonie And yett in sayinge that you shall euidently prooue your selfe to be senceles For there is noe such euidence of the thinge but anie man that is not moued with the authoritie of gods churche and tradition would esteeme it verie vncertaine and most doubtfull For vnles these wordes and that which I say of them I say of the rest of the scripture were God himselfe and spake to vs as imediatlie as he did to Moises and the rest of his prophetts they cannot be sayde to be knowne by theire owne light nor beleeued for theire owne truth Againe suppose you had certayne knoweledge of this by what meanes soeuer howe could you be certayne that he speaketh of those bookes of Moises psalmes and prophetts which we haue vnder those names This certainlie would be impossible for you to prooue seinge you reiect the authoritie of tradition and the churches iudgment by which onlie it is assuredlie prooued Furthermore you knowe that our Sauiour speakinge in his owne person required not to be beleeued but by the testimonie of his workes sayinge Nisi opera in eis fecissem 〈◊〉 nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent Much lesse therefore doth he require that we shoulde beleeue a written booke to be his worde without other proofe then the selfe light of the booke which is not so greate as that of his owne liuelie worde◠The sayinge of S Hierome is nothinge to the purpose For he speaketh onlie of the mutuall consent and concord of the two testaments which to christians that alreadie beleeue them both to be the worde of God is no small confirmation of the veritie of the doctrine they both contayne PILK The Gospells of the Euangelists the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles the reuelation of S. Iohn prooue themselues out of themselues to be theires whose titles they beare And if we creditt the bookes of historians and Philosophers auncient and moderne diuine and humane to be theires whose names they carrie in theire foreheads what madnes were it to thinke the diuine scriptures not to be written by them who are said to be theire penmen after the defluxion of so manie ages wherein neuer anie good christian called them in question besides wicked Iesuits impure Manichees Cerdonians Marcionists and Ebionites CHAMP None of all these bookes say they were written by such and such as is manifest And thoughe they did yett were not this sufficient to prooue them theirs vnles it were certaine this were theire testimonie and that they were infallible in their testimonie As for the titles they beare there is the same difficultie For it is not otherwise knowne to be theirs then by faith and beleefe of which we seeke the grounde And if titles were sufficient proofes of the true gospells we should haue manie moe gospells then we haue as you cannot be ignorant Againe the Epistle to the Hebrues beareth not the name of anie of the Apostles and howe longe it was thought by diuerse not to be S. Paules you knowe vnles you be verie ignorant For the workes of other humane authors why doe you beleeue them to be theirs if it be not for the testimonie of all succeedinge ages brought vnto vs by tradition Giue some other sufficient grounde of your beleefe in this poynte if you can and if you cannot say you are senceles to reiect ecclesiasticall tradition in receiuinge the bookes of the Bible or else that your iudgment is foolishe and idle
them by whom the Ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP If you had taken but ordinarie heede what you wrote you woulde not haue sayde that my position hath anie opposition with S. Ireneus who sayth not that the Apostles wrote all they preached as he should haue don to make your antithesis good but onlie that they wrote the same gospell which they preached and not a different or contrarie doctrine to their preachinge as some prophane heretickes of whom he maketh there mentioÌ„ impudentlie taught which sence of this Father your selfe acknowledge pag. 5. But if you will needes make this consequence they wrote that which they preached ergo they wrote all that they preached as you must argue if you will make anie antithesis betwixt my position and S. Ireneus his doctrine I will say that either you haue forgotten your logicke or that you neuer had anie For to make or inferre an vniuersall proposition of an indefinite in nâ—n necessarijs is most absurde as you shall see by these examples Homo est albus vel caluus ergo omnis homo est a â—us vel caluus or the kinge writeth that he speaketh and thinketh therefore he writeth all he speaketh or thinketh Moreouer of S. Ireneus his iudgment concerninge traditions you might haue informed your selfe by the chapter immediatelie followinge that which you cite where he hath these wordes When we appeall to that tradition which descendinge from the Apostles is by the succession of priestes in the Churche preserued they to wit heretikes reiect Traditions PILK The scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode and all articles of faith are not clearelie layde downe in them All thinges are cleare in the holy scriptures to them that come to them with a godlie minde CHAMP The position of the Manuall which you ayme at as this All places of holy scripture containinge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe whereof is damnable are not easie to be vnderstoode but require some rule to be interpreted by Nowe if you will maintaine this position to be opposite to S. Epiphanius you must graunte that your doctrine is opposite to him which I euidentlie shewe in this manner In the roll of positions which you say are forgéd by me against you and are sett downe by you in the next page of your booke This in the second All places of holie scripture conteininge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode which proposition if you will reiect as none of yours as you doe in the place mentioned then must necessarilie the contradictorie proposition which is the same with mine here carped at by you and wich you say is opposite to S. Epiphanius be yours and then doe you contradict S. Epiphanius if you will say that I doe Or if you will confesse the truth and acknowledge this latter proposition to be yours as doubtles it is why doe you then charge me with forgeinge it against you Accorde your owne sayinges and then shall I knowe what to answere vnto In the meane while you are vnfortunate to stumble so grosselie if contradictinge your selfe in so shorte a space may be termed onlie stumblinge in the verie entrance of your dispute My position shall be shewed agreeable both with holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers in due place And as for your authoritie alleaged out of S. Epiphanius if it be in him as I knowe noâ— whether it be or noe for it is cited by you so at large that I cannot finde it it may haue this true sence and meaninge That all thinges are cleare in scriptures to such as come to them with this minde to vnderstande them as the catholicke Churche and the true pastors thereof interpret them Which sayinge hath noe contrarietie at all with my position For I doe not say that the scriptures are harde to be vnderstoode by the churche or that they neede another rule to be interpreted by then the Churches vnderstandinge and interpretation PILK The sence of the holy scriptures geuen by the churche is vnfalliblie true as are also the definitions and declarations of faith deliuered by the same and euerie one is bounde vppon his damnation not to reiect the iudgment therof Who knoweth not that the holie scriptures as well of the old as newe testament is contayned in certaine boundes and so is to be preferred before all the latter writinges of Bishoppes that noe man ought to doubte att all or call in question whether it be true or right whatsoeuer is written therein when as the writinges of Bishopes that haue been or are written after the canon confirmed may lawfullie be reprehended both by the wiser speache of anie that is more skilfull in that matter and by grauer authoritie of other Bishopps and wisdome of the learned and also by councells if they haue in anie point wandred from the truth and euen nationall and prouincial councells doe giue place to those that are collected out of the whole vniuersall Christian worlde and generall counsells themselues are often amended the former by the latter as often as by tryal experience the thinge was opened that before was shutt or knowne that was hidd without anie swellinge of sacrilegious pride or stiffe necke of arrogancie or contention of deadlie enuie with holy humilitie with Catholicke peace with Christian charitie CHAMP You doe greatlie abuse your readers patience farceinge your booke with such impertinencies And you doe no lesse wronge the holy Father S. August bringinge his wordes as coÌ„tradictinge the churches infallibilitie in matters of faith and interpretation of the scriptures which he so often and so euidently restifieth But to conuince you of wilfulnes in abusinge S. Aug. it shall suffice to sett here before you that onlie Testimonie of the same holy Father which is expressed in the Manuall in proofe of this position which you would haue him to contradict His wordes there sett downe are these Although noe example is brought out of holie scripture of this thinge that the Baptisme of heretickes is sufficient yett doe we followe the truth of the same scripture in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of scriptures doth commend And because the holie scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued by the obscuritie of these questions letâ— him consulte therevpon with the churche which without all doubte the scriptures doe shewe Iudge nowe with your selfe whether you or I speake more conformablie to S. Aug. That which you alleage out of him of the doctrine of particular Bishopps or councells compared with the doctrine of holy scripture is altogether impertinent to your purpose That which he saith of vniuersall councells that the former may be ameÌ„ded by the latter is vnderstoode of matters pertayninge to manners or practise which often are changed accordinge as circumstances
vnderstoode him you would neuer haue dreamed of anie Antithesis betwixt my position his doctrine Hee speakinge manifestlie of that seruice which is due onlie vnto God called of diuines Latria whereof my position is not meant And if to make your Antithesis good you will contend that there is no other religious woshippe or seruice but onlie that which is called Latria and is only due vnto God learne of S. Aug to correct your sencelesse errour Who disputing against Faustus and haueinge confessed the religious worshippe of Martyrs to preuent your errour addeth these wordes But with that worshippe which in Greeke is called Latria and in Latin cannot be expressed in one worde being a seruice due onlie to the diuinitie we neither worshippe nor teache to be worshipped but God onlie Reade the whole chapter and see his doctrine more at large and you shall finde that in S. Aug. opinion Christian religion doth not forbidde the religious worshippe of maâ—tirs who are no more to be called dead men then Abraham Isaac and Iacob of whom our Sauiour himselfe testifieth that they are liuinge Matt 22 32 PILK To pray to the angells and Saincts in heauen is lawfull and derogateth no whit at all from the mediation of Christ The martirs are nominated in their place and order but yett are not prayed vnto by the priest that offereth Sacrifice That prayer which is not made by Christ not onlie doth not abolish sinne but it selfe is turned into sinne CHAMP Thoughe I be alreadie wearie of your impertinencies yett will I not stick to refute this last which is as apparant as the rest First therefore thoughe you take the wordes of S. Aug. as nakedlie as you sett them downe yett doe they sounde noe Antithesis with my position hee onlie denyinge that Sacrifice is to be offered to martyrs which the manuall affirmeth not Secondlie S. Aug. speaketh onlie of such inuocation as the heathens vsed to theire false Gods as you your selfe cannot denie if you would but read that same chapter which is by you alleaged and therfore his doctrine cannot coÌ„tradict my position which maketh not Saincts to be Gods nor yett to be worshipped as such Furthermore in this your allegation I note the shamefull beggarie and miserie of your cause which is such that you cannott begge or borrowe of the holy Fathers the least seeminge couer for one soare without gaulinge or discoueringe another For whilst you would couer your heresie of not prayinge to Saincts with a patch borrowed of S. Aug you shameleslie discouer and lay open that other heâ—esie of yours wherein you denie the sacrifice of the churche I will sett downe S. Aug wordes that all such as are not as wilfullie blinde as your selfe may see both your vanitie in this Antithesis the confutation of your heresie against the sacrifice of the newe Testament The Gentils saith he built temples erected alters ordered priests and did sacrifice to such Gods to witt Hercules Romulus and the like But we builde not churches to our Martyrs as to Gods but memories as to men departed whose soules liue with God neither doe we erect altars there to Sacrifice thereon to the Martyrs but we Sacrifice to one God whoe is our God and the God also of the Martyrs in which sacrifice they are named in theire place and rancke as men of God who vanquished the world in confessinge him bu they are not inuocated to witt as Gods by the priest that sacrificeth for he sacrificeth to God and not to them thoughe he sacrifice in their memorie because he it the priest of God and not of them And the sacrifice is the Boddie of Christ c. Your other testimonie out of S. Aug. vppon the psalme 108. is yett more foolishlie alleaged As thoughe for soothe those prayers which are made to God by his Saincts were not made vnto him by his sonne our Sauiour Your peruersitie hath made you intollerablie ignorant if you thinke so Againe S. Aug. there speaketh nothinge of prayers made to Saincts but of prayers made by Iudas who sellinge and betrayinge Christ did not onlie not pray by him but against him which being so hence I gather that if you sawe and read S. Aug. your selfe you haue a most wicked minde wittinglie labouringe to induce youâ—lesse carefull and warie reader into errour A degree of malice almost proper to the deuill himselfe PILK The like may bee verified of the rest CHAMP If you cal this verifyinge I desire you should alway plead against me and neuer for me For hitherto haue you not verified anie apparant contrarietie betwixt my position and the fathers doctrine thoughe you bragginglie pretend to bringe direct contradiction betweene them And in this dare I stand to the iudgment of your owne patron of Canterburie vppon condition that he will read the places in the fathers cited by you I will except that of S. Cyprian brought for the 7. Antithesis which though no more true indeede then the rest yett hath it a more apparancie in wordes then the rest and so is willinglie vnderstoode by your selfe and all the aduersaries of S. Peters primacie After your Antithesis you putt downe a roll of forged positions as thoughe I had imposed them vppon you and your fellowe protestants To which I answere first in generall that if it had not pleased you to winke att and ouerlooke that which I say neither confusedlie nor obscurelie in my preface you would not if you would haue sayd the truth charge me with forgeing anie positions against you I will here sett downe myne owne wordes which shall cleare me of that imputation I thinke euen with mine aduersaries if they be not wilfullie malignant Thus therefore I say there First I jett downe the Catholike Roman beliefe in direct and plaine positions c. And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholike doctrine to the end that the indfferent reader may more easilie iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy Scripture And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if hee wil prooue any thinge to purpose That is if he will prooue anie thinge against the Catholike Faith which onlie I vndertake in the Manuall to prooue and not to impugne or disprooue the protestants further then the proofe of one contradictorie is the disproofe of the other Without reason therefore doe you charge me with forgeinge positions thoughe amongst these which I sett downe vnder this note in the margent Protestants positioÌ„s some were founde which they doe not mantayne which whether it be so or no we shall presentlie examine for I putt the position contradictorie to the Catholike vnder the title of protestant position for this cause as I haue sayde before that if anie protestant will denie or impugne the catholike position prooued by me he may see the direct position which he is to prooue If therefore there be anie
blasphemous Arians To say nothinge of the diuell his citinge of scripture euen against our blessed Sauiour by al which it is more then euident that the sence of holy scripture besides the wordes is necessarilie required to make sufficient proofe of true doctrine For which reason I often bringe the incorrupte testimonie of some holy father for the sence of the place alleaged by me who haueinge liued att least a thousande yeares before these controuersies began cannott be esteemed partiall one our side PILK We adore the fulnes of scripture and prooue from thence not some but euerie pointe of our doctrine which you Iesuits neither canne doe nor professe to doe but the contrarie charginge them with insufficiencie and imperfection which howe manfullie you can desprooue by other texts will appeare in the discourse ensuinge CHAMP As you are more redounâ— in wordes in this section then in the precedent so are you more impertinent Your flant out of Tertullian shall be answered in the controuersie of scripture where you repeat it againe And for your vaine and windie brag to prooue euerie point of your doctrine out of holy scripture I knowe alreadie howe it will be performed to witt by fillinge your margents with quotations of scripture to delude the ignorant which beinge examined and compared with the article to be prooued haue as much resemblaÌ„ce with it as an aple with an oyster The ministers of Fraunce beinge of late detected of this fraude before the kinge himselfe and prouoked by his preacher to iustifie theire citations of scripture quoted in the margent of the confession of theire faith thoughe they seemed to take haynouslie the accusation yett till this day haue they not iustified theire quotations nor euer will Howe you will quitt your selfe in this point we shall see when we come vnto itt PILK In the meane while it is vntrue that all heretikes alleaged scriptures which they loue as wel as dogges doe whippes but iust as you papists say there is more force in tradition then in the written worde for they are owles that cannot abide the light of the scripture they massacre them as Martian did that they may builde vppe theire owne matters they alleage Apostolicall traditions as Artemon did who saide that all the auncients yea the Apostells taught and saide like himselfe and laide handes on the scriptures irreligiouslie sayinge that he had reformed them CHAMP You affirme bouldlie but prooue nothinge a fowle faulte in a doctour That all heretikes vniuersallie alleage scriptures which you say is moste vntrue heare the testimonie of one that is not partiall to either of vs and of more iudgment in this matter then vs both I meane Vincentius Lirinensis of equall standinge with S. Aug. who writeth thus Some will peraduenture demande here whether heretikes doe vse the testimonies of scripture They doâ— trulie and that vehementlie For you shall see them runne thorough all the bookes of holy scripture throughe the bookes of Moses of the kinges of the psalmes of the Apostles Euangelists and prophets For whether they speake with theire owne fellowes or with other whether priuatelie or publikelie whether in Sermons or in bookes whether in banquetts or in the streetes they neuer vtter anie thinge of theire owne but they will seeme to shaddowe it with the wordes of scripture Reade the workes of Paulus Samosateuus of Priscilian of Eunomius of Luther Caluin Zuinglius and of the rest of the plagues thou shalt finde almost an infinite heape of examples noe page that is not painted with the passages ' of the newe testament Nowe iudge your selfe whether your sayinge or myne is the more vntrue Yea which is more doe not I pray you the phaÌ„tasticall Swinkefildians a younger broode of your grande father Luther alleage scripture for theire reiectinge of all scripture and adheringe to theire dreames and reuelations yea and such scriptures as if you had the like for anie pointe of your misbeleefe you would thinke it fullie prooued by them You say that heretikes hate scriptures as dogges doe whippes which is true when they are vnderstoode in the sence of the churche and not accordinge to theire owne interpretation and after the same manner doe you loue them and not otherwise They affirme say you as papists doâ— more force to be in traditions then in scriptures What papist can you name that euer affirmed this name one at least or say you belie theÌ„ and doe not inuert the question but compare the receiued scripture with an approoued tradition for so are they to be compared to finde out whether of them hath the greater force where I woulde haue you further to note that the heretikes theire alleaginge of traditions doth prooue the authoritie of traditions euen with catholikes For no man of common seÌ„ce will alleage an authoritie which he knoweth to be not receiued of his aduersarie or could proue that it ought to be receiued You say Marâ—ion did massacre the scriptures But did he massacre the them more then your Maysters Luther and Caluin doe who cutt out of them manie whole bookes besides manie notable parcels of those bookes which they seeme to receiue Artemon you say affirmed that all the auncients yea the Apostles taught as he did and yett layde irreligious handes vppon the scriptures sayinge he had reformed them And doe not I pray you your masters say and doe the verie same where for the loue of God were your witts when you wrote these thinges that you sawe not all these sayinges of yours to be bloudie stripes to your selfe lett vs see the rest PILK Yea Arrius himselfe began thus his booke Thalia After this manner haue I learned of the elect of God accordinge to faith the knowers of him and the right walkers after him And of his followers whom you esteeme to haue stoode so much vppon the scriptures Athanasius reportes that when they coulde not preuaile by them they fledd to the Fathers as theeues vsuallie pretende honest and modest men to be theire companions like the wicked Iewes which claimed Abraham for theire Father when they were conuicted by the scriptures Against all which as against your traditions we oppose that worthie sayinge of Hierome All thinges that they pretende without authoritie and testimonie of scriptures the worde of God thrust through CHAMP You goe still forewarde in your impertinences hauinge either forgotten what you shoulde prooue or wittinglie wandringe vpp and downe to dazell the eies of your lesse skilfull reader and to wearie your aduersarie with followinge your idle stepps What I pray you doth all this you haue sayde make to prooue that heretickes alleage not scriptures for theire errours which is that you vndertooke to prooue nothinge att all If you woulde prooue that Arrius and his sectaries alleaged not scriptures for theire heresie because in the first line of his booke Thalia which seemeth to haue much semblance with the stile of your elected brotherhoode he alleageth none you are too seelie a
disputer to beare the name of a doctour But S. Athanasius saith they fledd to the fathers seinge they coulde not preuaile by the scriptures Be it that S. Athan saith soe it is euident thereby that they alleaged scriptures contrarie to your assertion S. HieroÌ„ whom you drawe in by the eares saith as little to your purpose putt case you cite him truelie which I will not stande to examine For he saith no such thinge as that heretikes alleage not scriptures which you shoulde prooue but because you imagine his sayinge to make against traditions which if you had but one sparke of iudgment you would see howe vnseasonablie you impugne here I will answere it by puttinge you in minde that catholickes pretend not traditions without the testimonie of scriptures butt accordinge to the expresse testimonie thereof which you knowe and therefore is your impertinencie in alleaginge S. Hierome his wordes lesse excusable PILK What then thoughe Satan the Father and heretikes his sonnes abuse the letter of the scripture as you papists nowe doe yett with noe other weapon did Christ conquer him and them to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spirit wherewith the deuill and all his adherents must be putt to flight but this you say is the sence and not the wordes onlie CHAMP Whether you or we abuse the scriptures as Satan did is in controuersie betweene vs and must necessarilie light vppon one side In the meane tyme whilst it appeare whether you or we be the scholers of Satan hence it is clearlie manifest that it is not enoughe for the proofe of anie doctrine to cite scripture for it which is my position against which you haue hitherto wilfullie wrangled And if you will stande to that ignoraunt paradox of yours that with no other weapon then the scriptures our Sauiour conquered the deuill and his children and that to teach vs that they onlie are the sworde of the spiritt where with they are to be putt to flight blott out of your Bibles the whole newe testament as you haue donne manie bookes of the ould for no worde of the newe testament was written diuers yeeres after our Sauiours Ascention into heauen and triumphe ouer the deuill and hel Woulde you haue me conclud this in forme of argument against you Here take it That scripture onlie is the sworde of the spirit which our Sauiour vsed But he vsed noe other scripture then the oulde testament ergo the ould testament oulie is the sworde of the spirit The maior is your owne the minor is euident the conclusion followeth directlie vpon the premisses Whence clearlie followeth this consequence Therefore the newe testament is not necessarie So that you see howe well you argue for the authoritie and dignitie of holy scripture But qui ambulat in tenebris nescit quo vaait PILK Madd Orestes would sweare he were out of his witts that could imagine otherwise For the the Gospell lyeth not in the wordes of the scripture but in the sence not in the rinde but in the pith not in the leaues of speeches but in the grounde of reason saith the same Father Wherein it followeth that gods worde foolishlie vnderstoode is not his worde which consisteth not in reading but in vnderstandinge and that adulteratinge the sence hurteth the truth as much as marringe the sentences of scriptures The sence then is the GarlaÌ„d we striue for which whether it be with you or vs you refer your selfe vnto the incorrupte testimonie of some holy Father that liued a thousand yeres a goe as if you meant to stand to the Fathers verdict whome your good maysters as scornefullie contemne as if they were schoole boyes when once they contradict the sence of the Roman church CHAMP I willinglie ioyne with you in this issue also that the sence of the scripture is the garlande you ought to striue for And if you dare the Fathers shall be the iudge of our plea but you dare as well eat hoat coales as stande to theire verdict PILK When we prooue out of Tertullian that liued 200. yeeres after Christ that Pope Zepherinus fauored the heresie of Montanus contrarie to your newe Roman Sence that Popes cannot erre we must not at all beleeue Tertullian in this point saith Bellarmine For he was a Montanist yea an euill spiritt so carried him that of euill being made worse and worse and most filthie he spued out most horrible blasphemies saith Barronius CHAMP What is this to the purpose of tryinge the true sence of the scriptures haue you so quicklie forgotten the thinge in question But to followe you in your extrauagances least you should thinke your obiection not to be answered Tell me I pray you in the small honestie of a minister whether you geue more creditt to Tertullian nowe a confessed heretike in a matter aduantageous to his errour then to all antiquitie testifyinge Zepherin Pope to haue been an holy Sainte and Martyr Are you so maliuouslie bent against the Pope and sea of Rome that to fix some fault vppon them you will put Saincts out of heauen make martyrs heretikes and that for the bare testimonie of a professed heretike lett the iudicious reader iudge what spiritt you are guided by PILK When we vrge S. Aug. to prooue that in the state of corruption there is no free will in man to that which is good contrarie to your sence Stapleton saith he went beyond all good measure in his dispute against Pelagius with like vsage doe they entertaine the rest when they crosse theire grosse errours CHAMP This obiection is as impertinent as the precedent For be it that the Fathers haue some harde speeches which heretikes abuse to theire owne hurte what maruell sith the holy ghost testifieth the like of the holy scriptures themselues Stapleton speaketh neuer a worde directlie of free will in that chapter nor yett of S. Aug. opinion thereof But hauinge shewed S. August to haue taught that gentills and others not iustified doe not sinne in all theire workes obiecteth to himselfe certaine places out of S Aug. where disputinge against Iulian the Pelagian he seemeth to incline to the contrarie opinion Which hauinge answered and explicated by other of his sayinges in the same places he concludeth Sed vtâ—unque in hac disputatione moaum forâ—asse excesserit Augustinus vt propter aduersarij putuiantissiman impudentiam etiam peccata esse diceret quae vere perfecte bona non essent tamen nusquan alibi id dixisse aut scripsisse legitur vbi sine aduersario non agonostice sed dogmatice scripsit Which are the wordes of StapletoÌ„ you carpe att but why if you consider them a little better you will not easilie shewe PILK For howesoeuer your councell of Trent make a semblance to decree that the scriptures must be interpreted accordinge to the sence which the churche holdeth or the vnanimous consent of the fathers approoueth yett it is plaine that as when Caesar and Bibulus were consulls together whatsoeuer
was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
and gaue thankes sayinge This is mâ— boddy and likewise the chalice which is of the creature which is with vs hee confessed it to be his bloode and taught a newe oblation ' of the newe lawe which the Church receauinge from the Apostles doth offer it to God thorough the whole worlde These are his wordes you will peraduenture say that here is no mention of these wordes doe this the exposition whereof is nowe in question It is true that here is no expresse mention of them But S. Ireneus epreslie sayinge that our Sauiour Christ when he sayde hoc est corpus meum taught a newe oblation of the newe Testament declareth plainlie in what wordes he taught this oblatioÌ„ For it beinge clear in S. Ireneus his doctrine that our Sauiour Chr. sacrificed his bodie and bloud at that tyme it cannot be called into doubt but he gaue to his Apostles by these wordes doe this power and authoritie to doe the same PILK What father euer conceiued drinke ye all of this to be vnderstoode onlie of priests and not of the people also which nowe is the sence of your holy mother CHAMP No man saith these wordes drinke â—ee all of this so to haue been spoken to the Apostells and consequentlie to priests that the laytie is by diuine precept excluded but that they may if the churche which all that will not be as publicans and heathens are bound to heare thinke good also drinke thereof as they haue donne in some tymes and some places But that these wordes are so spoken to the laytie that they are commaunded to drinke of the Chalice you cannot I thinke shewe anie one father that affirmeth it much lesse the vniforme consent of the fathers And therefore your obiection is altogether impertinent to prooue that we leaue the interpretation of the fathers PILK Againe psalme the. S. God putt all thinges vnder his seete that is of the Pope beastes of the field that is men liuinge vppon the earth fishes of the sea that is soules in purgatorie fowles of heauen that is soules of the blessed which by Canonization the Pope may propose to be adored name anie father if you can that so dalyed and played with godes sacred worde CHAMP Name you anie one chatholike Doctor that geueth this interpretation of this place for the literall sence thereof or if you cannot blush at your impertinencies bringinge the morall or misticall interpretation of one author to prooue that catholikes leaue the vniforme literall interpretation of the scriptures geuen by the fathers yea though this were geuen for the literal sence of this place yet would it not prooue that we leaue the fathers interpretation of the same place one passage of scripture beinge capable of diuers literall interpretations so that your impertinencie appeareth yett more grosse PILK As then the Iewes tyed themselues to theire Rabbines that they must receiue whatsoeuer they teach thoughe they say the right hande is the lefte so haue you captiuated your self in such manner to the sence of the Romane churche that one of yours is not afrayde to teache is anie man haue her interpretation of anie place of scripture thoughe he neither knowe or vnderstande whether or howe it agree with the scriptures yett he hath the worde of god CHAM We doe not imitate the Iewes in adheringe to the churches sence of the scripture as you idlie imagine but we followe therein the expresse doctrine of our Sauiour Christ who tell'eth vs that he that will not heare the churche is to be esteemed as a publican or heathen whose doctrine if you did esteeme more then your owne fancie you would not carpe at that sayinge of Hosius which is true if the gospell itselfe which teacheth the like doctrine be not false PILK As for the fathers we reade theire workes and geue God thankes for theire labours who haue cleared manie obscurities in the scriptures desended the auntient doctrine of the church against the nouelties of heretikes yett with their good leaues we passe by theire interpretations when they are dissonant from the scriptures and willinglie imbrace them when they are consonaÌ„t tryinge theire expositions by them not them by theire expositions and in a worde euer deducing the sence of the scriptures from themselues CHAMP It is well you here acknowledge some obscurities in the scriptures Hereafter if I be not deceiued you will come to denie all such thinge as shall be noted when we come to the place if we goe so farr together The honour you geue here to the fathers workes is no other then you geue to the damnedst heretikes that euer wrote so kinde you are vnto them For that which anie heretike saith conformablie to holy scripture you willinglie imbrace And in one worde you deduce the sence of scriptures from your owne selfe-willed fancie makinge it say what you list to belieue and not belieuinge that which the scriptures say indeede PILK Not without cause is there an healthfull ecclesiasticall Canon vigilantlie constituted whereunto certayne bookes of the prophets and Apostels doe appertaine which we doe not iudge att all and accordinge to which we iudge freelie of other letters of the faithfull or of infidels saith S. August So that beinge vrged with Cyprians authoritie that these which were baptized in heresie or schisme were to be rebaptized he answereth we offer noe wronge to Cyprian when we putt a difference betweene his letters and the Canonicall authoritie of holy scriptures for as he goeth on in the next chapter I doe not accompte of Cyprians letters as Canonicall but I weigh them by the bookes that are Canonicall and what is agreable in them to the authoritie of diuine scriptures I with praise intertayne and what is disagreeinge with his leaue I refuse CHAMP We neither compare nor oppose the fathers workes to the scriptures and therefore these wordes of S Aug. are as impertinentlie alleaged by you as all the rest you haue hitherto sayde If anie one father teach anie thinge contrarie to the scriptures interpreted by the rest of the fathers and the catholicke churche as S. Cyprian of humane errour and not of willfull obstinacie did we receiue not his doctrine in that pointe As S. August in the 32. cap. here quoted by you expresslie saith in these wordes That which bâ—esseâ— cyprian thought of the baptizinge of heretikes and schismatikes I receiue not because the churche doth not receiue it for the which S. Cyprian shedd his blood Followe you S. Aug example in refusinge the fathers interpretation in this manner no man will finde faulte with you PILK This freedome which S. Aug. sheweth we protestants freelie mantaine against the slauerie of your popish spiritts knowinge what is due to men and acknowledginge what is proper to gods holy worde which we euer interprete out of it selfe wherein we followe the direction of the auÌ„tient priests and leuits that read the lawe vnto the people expoundinge the meaninge and gaue the
vnderstandinge according to scriptures CHAMP I wish with all my hearte thoughe you geue little occasion to hope it that you woulde immitate S. Aug aswell in this particular as in all other thinges then woulde you with all humilitie and reuerence receiue and acknowledge the authoritie of the churche in the interpretation of the scriptures and not diabolicallie bragge of the brauenes of your spirits that dare contemne the same Hearken I pray you vnto S. Aug wordes to Cresconius in the same chapter cited by you which seeinge you take noe notice of it is an euident argument you haue noe greate desire to learne anie thinge of him but to see if you canne picke anie thinge out of him for your purpose which is to impugne him and the rest of the fathers His wordes are these which may as properlie be vsed to you as he vsed them to Cresconius Put your selfe saith he in the churche which it is manifest S. Cyprian defended and then may you alleage S. Cyprians authoritie for your doctrine The same I say to you concerninge S. Aug example thoughe you came neerer the imitatinge thereof theÌ„ you doe You say you followe the direction of the priests and leuits in expoundinge scriptures I finde nothing att all in the place quoted by you warrantinge your vsage of scriptures But were it as you thinke you must first prooue your selues to be priests or leuits before you can take vppon you the charge of priests and leuits in expoundinge the scriptures How would you answere that olde question put vnto such as you are well nighe 1400. yeares a goe Vnde vemtts quid in meo â—acitis non mei or if you will take vppon you as priests and leuits to expounde the scriptures beinge noe such men those that desire not to be deceaued will reiect your expositions as false and pernitious PILK And thus the fathers teache vs as whatsoeuer golde is without the temple is not sanctified so whatsoeuer sence is without the scriptures althoughe to some it seeme wounderfull yet is not holy because it is not contained in the scriptures The scripture expoundeth her selfe and suffereth not the hearers to erre saith Chrisostome He is the best reader sayth Hyllarie that expecteth rather the vnderstandinge of the wordes from the wordes themselues then imposeth it vppon them CHAMP The sence of the churche is neuer without the scriptures as the sence of all heretikes is which impugne the churche and if the scriptures permitt not the hearer to err as you say in vaine are your expositions euerie hearer beinge aswell able to vnderstande them as you ministers You said not longe since that there are manie obscurities in the scriptures and are they nowe so cleare that they permitte not the hearer to err Doe you not see what absurdities you runne into whilst you wrangle against the euident truth And who I pray you is more like to take the sence of the scriptures from the wordes themselues and not to impose it vppon them as you say out of S. Hillarie then the catholicke churche assisted to that end by the holy ghost PILK To conclude this pointe sith the fathers often roue att the sence of the scriptures vnderstandinge that literallie which is meant spiritually and contrariwise as your owne Bellarmine may informe you you shoulde haue donne well to haue followed the direction of your owne Canon lawe you must not froÌ„ without scriptures seeke a forrayne and straunge sence that so you may confirme it with authoritie of the text as you can but of the scriptures themselues you must receiue the meaninge of the truth CHAMP If the fathers roue at the sence of the scriptures which saucie and vnseemlie terme you falslie father vppon Bellarmine what shall I thinke you will doe Hitt the marke directlie what sencelesnes would that be to thinke that men impugninge violentlie the church which the scriptures testifie to be pillar of truth should be true interpreters of scriptures Knowe you therefore that whilst followe the fathers interpretations of the scriptures which they either receiue from the churche or is approoued and not approoued and not gainsayde by the churche I seekâ— not the sence of the scriptures from without them but in them by them and most conformablie to them and so I followe punctuallie the direction of the Canon Lawe as you aduise me maruellinge not a little that you should geue so good counsell to another and followe it so little your selfe And nowe Iudicious reader woulde I intreate thee to turne ouer a fewe leaues backwarde and take reuiewe of the short section of the manuall sett downe as it is in Mr. Pilkinton and then passe hardlie thy censure of vs both as thou shalt finde cause and ground And particular note I woulde haue thee to take howe pertinentlie and directlie he impugneth that which hâ— affirms 〈…〉 and effectuallie prooueth that which I woulde haue thee obserue thoroughe ouâ— whole dispute MANVALL SECTIO 4. Thirdlie that I expect and exact of him or them that shall goe aboute to answere this teatise the same round sincere and direct dealinge which I haue here vsed Remembringe before all thinges that he sett downe his faith in direct positions and proceed in like methode as I haue donne for the rest To whom I willinglie graunt this large libertie aboue that which I haue vsed that he tye not himselfe vnto the first 500. yeres after Christ for the fathers interpretations but that he take bouldlie 1500. yeres so that he bringe not condemned heretikes for his authors and with all obserue the pointe followinge PILK You may bouldlie sound the Triumphe before the victorie if you may prescribe your aduersaries howe and what they shall answere you which if any of vs shoulde offer to your side we should presentlie be vpbrayded with fortissimi milites that on noe other condition dare encounter with our enemies except we forbidde them what weapons they would vse and take to our selues what we list Neuerthelesse rather then you shoulde complaine that you are wronged if your desire be not accomplished who carrie in your head Ticonius conceipt quod volumus sanctum est therefore I am content to followe your disorderlie order and for the rest of this paragraph doe as Antonie the oratour did who when he came to a troublesome pointe lapped it vp in silence so on the contrarie for the easines of this to passe by itt and proceede to that which is of greater moment CHAMP It is not onlie lawfull but verie laudable and welbeseeminge for anie man to demande equall conditions of his aduersarie which notwithstandinge I haue spared to doe yeldinge vnto you the libertie of 1500. for onlie 500. yeeres which is in anie indifferent mens iudgment ouer great aduantage For the rest of this section I will imitate your example lettinge it passe in silence For I will not be ashamed to followe you where you goe right MANVALL SECTION 5. Fowerthlie that it
there appeare a â—arre in the scriptures that some of them are opposed to others as it fell out betweene the auncient Bishoppes and the Arrians betweene the Catholikes and Donatists betweene Pelagians and godlie teachers and nowe betweene you and vs that on both sides they are produced a iudge must be sought for to reconcile them Who is that not a Christian for he is partie on the one side or the other not a pagan he knoweth not the misteries of Christianitie not a Iewe for he is an enemie to Christian Baptisme on Earth there can be founde noe iudgment saith Optatus But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospell his testament for here earthlie thinges may be compared to heauenlie See howe we may come to the true sence not by seekinge vnto the Pope not by restinge vppon determinations of councels not by settinge on Traditions but by flyinge vnto the Testament For as the same Optatus goeth on Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthlie Father who hauinge manie children ruleth them all so longe as he liueth noe testament so longe is necessarie euen so Christ so longe as he was present vppon earth althoughe nowe he be not wantinge gaue in charge vnto the Apostles whatsoeuer for the tyme was necessarie But as an earthlie father feelinge himselfe in the consines of death fearinge after his decease his children will contendâ— and breake peace calleth witnesses and from his dyinge breast draweth his will into lastinge tables and if there fall out anie contention amonge the brethren they goe not to his tombe but seeke his testament and so he that quietly resteth in his tombe speaketh still from the tables as if he were aliue He whose testament we haue is in heauen therefore lett his will be sought for in his gospell as in a testament for these thinges which presentlie yeâ— doe he foresawe that yee would doe CHAMP Because these sayinges of Optatus haue the same meaninge with that of S. Aug which imediatlie followeth it shall there appeare howe litle they serue your turne Here are onlie to be noted these wordes of his On earth there is founde noe iudge By which wordes he excludeth not all iudgment vppon earth for so should he exclude the testament also it selfe but he excludeth all earthlie or humane iudgment as vnfitt and vnable to decide differencies of faith of which sorte the iudgment of the churche is not For shee is the piller and ground of truth perpetuallie assisted by the holy Ghost which teacheth and suggesteth to her all truth PILK S. August runneth the verie same course almost vseth the same wordes as if he had taken them out of Optatus we are brethren saith he why doe we striue our father died not intestate he hath made a testament and so died men doe striue aboute the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read the iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the crier biddeth peace all the people are attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read and heard he lyeth voide of life and feelinge in his graue and his wordes preuaile Christe doth sitt in heauen and is his testament gainsayde open it lett vs reade it we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes be pacified our father hath not lefte vs without a testament he that made the testament is liuinge for euer he doth heare our wordes he doth knowe his owne worde why doe we striue CHAMP S. Aug by these plaine wordes of the spalme Reminisâ—entur conuertentur ad Dominum omnes fines terrae Et adorabunt in conspectâ— eius vniuersae familiae genti 〈…〉 as by the confessed testament of the father prooueth that the Donatists haue noe right to the inheritance of the churche which they contrarie to the testament of God expressed in the psalme say was onlie in a corner of the world amongst them Who notwithstandinge were not come to that degree of seÌ„clesnes as to say the church was inuisible as the protestants doe Iustlie therefore did S. Aug prouoke the Donatists in this pointe to the tryall of the testament as also the catholikes doe the protestantes in the pointe of the reall presence and diuers others Which tryall notwithstandinge is not sufficient where either scripture is opposed to scripture or it is not agreed vppon which is the scripture it selfe as it happeneth betweene the catholikes and protestants as shall â—ore amplie appeare by and by PILK And S. Ambrose more auncient then both to Gratian the Emperour Beleeue not Emperour our Argument and our disputation let vs aske the Scriptures let vs aske the Apostles let vs aske the Prophets let vs aske Christ what shoulde I adde more let vs aske the Father of whose honour they say they are Iealous CHAMP Sr. you alwaies speake besides the purpose The question betweene you and me is not whether the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the church are not sufficient to decide anie controuersie in faith and namelie that whereof S. Amb. disputeth which is not denyed vnto you but whether the scriptures lefte vnto the interpretation of either party contendinge are a sufficient iudge to end all controuersies in faith In which question I defende the negatiue and you the affirmatiue if you will yett contend anie more These testimonies therefore of the fathers aswell of S. Ambrose as those that went before and also that followe are alleaged beside the question and altogether impertinentlie as all the rest of your sayinges for the moste parte are PILK A Gentile cometh and saith I woulde be a Christian but I knowe not which side to cleaue vnto manie dissentions are amonge you and I cannot tell which opinion to holde euerie one saith I speake the truth and the scriptures on both sides are pretended so that I knowe not whom to beleeue To this Chrisostome replyeth trulie this maketh much for vs for well might you be troubled if we should say we rely vppon reason but seeinge we take the scriptures which are so true and playne it will be an easie matter for you to iudge if anie consent vnto them he is a Christian if anie goe against them he is farr from this rule CHAMP This allegation of S. Chrisost is not onlie impertinent as all the rest are but fraudulent and proceedinge of a minde not willinge to finde out the truth but to deceiue the reader For the wordes imediatlie followinge and lefte out by you Mr. Pilkinton propose directlie the question which nowe is in hande and the answere thereof followeth also consequentlie Quid igitur saith S. Chrisost What therefore if he say that the scripture hath in this sort and thou sayest another thinge explicatinge the scriptures otherwise and drawinge theire sence to fauour thee Loe here the question in controuersie betweene Mr. Pilkinton and me Howe doth S. Chrisostome answere it doth he send vs to
especiallie to be beleeued Whereupon in another place speakinge of the faith wherewith we beleeue the scriptures he willeth vs to followe those who inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not able to conceiue that beinge made more stroÌ„ge in faith we may attaine to vnderstande that which we beleeue God himselfe confirminge and inwardlie inligthenninge our mindes and not men This is sufficient to shewe that neither arte nor order requireth at your handes to prooue the scriptures as you disorderlie imagine CHAMP The scriptures or verities conteyned in them are confessed to be principles in respect of all Theologicall conclusions deduced from them and therefore in respect of them they neede no farther proofe to anie christian diuine that beleeueth them to be the worde of God But they are not principles in respect of the articles of our faith in generall but are themselues to be beleeued for the same authoritie of God reueylinge as all other articles of faith are And that they are not necessarie principles of the articles of our â—aith it is manifest by that before the scriptures were written the churche of God beleeued manie of the same articles which nowe it beleeueth Therfore when you say the scriptures or verities contained in them are primae veritatis if ignorance thoughe grosse and not to be excused in a doctour of diuinitie doth not excuse you you will make the scriptures not onlie to be gods worde but also to be God himselfe For besides him there is no prima veritas which is to be beleeued for it selfe as vppon better consideration I thinke you will not dare to denie Seeinge therefore the scriptures are not primae veritatis or first truthe but the testimonies wordes or verities reueiled by the first truthe they are not euen by your owne grounde to be beleeued for themselues but for the truthe and authoritie of the first veritie God himselfe of whose reuelation we must haue sufficient grounde before we canne securelie and prudentlie beleeue the scriptures to be his worde That which you bringe out of S. Thomas maketh euidentlie against you so iudicious are you in your allegations For the scriptures beinge not God they are not the first truth and therefore not to be beleeued for themselues S. Aug. in the first place maketh also against you sayinge that the scriptures are to be beleeued to bee of gods spiritt and not to be knowne For to beleeue this he recurreth not to the scriptures themselues but to the authoritie which they had obtayned throughe the whole worlde The second authoritie of S. Aug. is wholie impertinent to your purpose as the reader thoughe but of meane iudgmeÌ„t will easilie discerne Hee sayinge nothinge that soundeth as if the scriptures were to be beleeued for themselues or without other authoritie And therfore thus farr haue you saide nothinge that may satisfie this assertion of the Manuall that in the orderlie proceedinge in this present poincte the scriptures shoulde first be prooued but you will peraduenture satisfie better hereafter PILK Yett further to satisfy you I answere that the scriptures doe sufficientlie prooue theÌ„selues and these and these bookes to be the scripture both by that inwarde light that is contained in them and that outwarde operation that they haue in vs. For first they are a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path a candle that shineth in a darke place And as a light doth discouer those thinges that are in darkenes and demonstrateth also it selfe vnto the eies saith Aug. so doth the holy scriptures by that connatur all light that is in them manifest themselues vnto those whose vnderstandinge is enlightened to behoulde them Which if you cannot perceiue desire God to remoue the scales from your eies as he did from Paules for this is a case so cleare that Stapleton graunteth it credenti scriptura seipsam probat commendat CHAMP All this proueth noe other thinge then that to christians and catholikes who belieue the scriptures to be the worde of God and vnderstand it in the sence of the churche they haue all these properties of light lampe and lanterne and this is it which Stapleton expreslie saith if hou had taken but verie ordinarie heede to his wordes But to say that either to a Pagan who beleeueth not the scriptures to be Gods worde or to an heretike who vnderstandeth them not in the sence of the churche but accordinge to his owne fancie they are such as doe manifest themselues to be the worde of God is a most sencelesse Paradox contradicted by manifest experience not onlie in Martin Luther and all his disciples who as you knowe reiect diuerse bookes receiued by Caluin and his followers but also of the auncient and holy fathers who did not vniuersallie receiue as Canonicall Scripture all such bookes of the newe testament as nowe are receiued by you And yett none of all these I suppose you will say wanted light to see that which is manifest of it selfe PILK Againe they are knowne by theire operation in vs for the worde of the Lorde is pure and conuerts the soule a two edged sworde Heb. 4. 12. a verie fierie worde psal 119. 14. which purifieth the soules inflameth the affections enlighteneth the vnderstandinge and so softeneth the heart of the hearer that it frameth it sitt to all goodnes Which noe other worde or worke deuised by the witt of men or Angells canne doe Where vppoÌ„ LactaÌ„tius speakinge of the differeÌ„ce betweene the doctrine of the gentills of the churche saith that the wisdome of the Philosophers doth not roote out vice but hide it whereas a fewe precepts of God so change the whole man and mould him a newe by castinge away the ould that one would not thinke him to be the same Geue me a man that is wrathfull euill tougued vnbridled by a fewe wordes of God I will make him meeke as a lambe Geue me a couetous auaritious and tenacious man I will restore him liberall and distributinge his money with his owne handes Geue me a man fearfull of sorrowe and death he shall contemne crosses fires dangers bulls c. By one lauer shall all malice be expelled such is the force of diuine wisdome that beinge powered into the brest of man it expelleth folly att one blowe that is the mother of all vices What man then that hath his hearte thus mollified his will rectified his vnderstandinge cleared and his whole course suddenlie altered can deliberatelie doubte of the scriptures seinge Christe himselfe teacheth vs thus to knowe them Is anie will performe the will of his father he shall knowe of the doctrine whether it be good or noe CHAMP In whome I pray you doth the scripture worke these effects you haue here so industriously numbred vp in those that beleeue them not to be true or to be the worde of God you will not say so I suppose Why doe you therefore bring these arguments to prooue the scriptures to be easily knowne to
be god worde that they are manifest of themselues and neede not to be prooued Because you will euer be impertinent not knowinge what you say nor what you shoulde prooue and yet are you so full of bable that you will still be be talkinge If one shoulde aske your aduise howe he might knowe good Phisicke and you shoulde say vnto him it is an easie thinge to knowe that For that phisike which coÌ„forteth nature expelleth disseases and restoreth health is certainlie good phisicke doe you thinke he shoulde be much wiser for your aduise whatsoeuer you thinke I knowe he shoulde be as wise as he was before Such is your directions to knowe the scripture vnto such as doe not alreadie knowe or beleeue them And seeinge our Sauiour himselfe prescribeth as a necessarie rule to knowe the scriptures the performance of his fathers will before his doctrine canne be vnderstoode as you well note but stil against your selfe it is euident that they are not so cleare of theÌ„selues nor yett so easie to be knowne as you pretend For that doctrine which must first be practised by humble obedience before it can be vnderstoode or knowne to be of God as our Sauiour saith of the scripture noe man that is not deuoyde of all iudgment wil say is easie to be knowne euen by it selfe PILK I might add all those arguments which both the fathers and schoolemen produce out of the scriptures themselues to prooue them the ofspringe of God which if they be stronge against gentiles I knowe not howe they should be weake against you vid. the maiestie of the doctrine the simplicitie and puritie of the stile antiquitie of the bookes truth of oracles and predictions that manie ages after held their complement with sundrie other to the like purpose but I passe by them and shutt vppe this pointe with that speeche of your Stewchus CHAMP You were well aduised to passe by all such arguments of the fathers and schoolemen as woulde nothinge serue your purpose I woulde you had been so aduised from the begininge for soe shoulde I not haue hadd the labour and paynes to transcribe so manie impertinencies of yours as I haue been forced to doe hitherto The arguments which you here mention taken by themselues are farr from makinge anie sufficient grounde to builde our faith vppon thoughe they are probable and prudent considerations and ioyned with the authoritie of the churche and tradition wherby â—e receiue the scriptures they are not without some force to persuade the bookes of the holy Bible to be gods worde and to be written by his inspiration But take you experience of them in your selfe and see whether they are sufficient to persuade that the bookes of Wisdome Ecclesiastious and the rest receiued generallie by the whole churche and namelie by the fathers and schoolemen whose authoritie here you seeme to vrge for canonicall are trulie gods worde and written by his holy spiritt And if you finde them not sufficient groundes for these why woulde you intrude them vppon vs as sufficient for the rest But lett vs heare what you bringe out of our Stewchus PILK They which thinke the authoritie of holy scriptures whereunto all the worlde nowe assenteth to depende vppon the readers faith and not to bringe with them certaine diuine and most potent reasons that drawe vnto them the iudgements of greate mindes are therefore deceiued because they are not of theire number whose mindes both by naturall goodnes and continuall exercitation of wisdome doe prudentlie apprehend the highest and truest thinges whereas if anie haue that wisedome geuen him to esteeme the greatnes of thinges as they deserue he shall feele the weight of diuine oracies to be so greate that the pronunciation of them onlie would suffice to begett a most firme and suddaine faith CHAMP The whole space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeeres geuen you to take your testimonies out of might haue sufficed without alleaginge of moderne writers and those oâ— small note and lesse authoritie Stewchus is an author not wholly receiued and the booke cited by you is put in the index of bookes to be amended or corrected and therefore the testimonie thereof thoughe it were otherwise most formall as it is not is of noe authority against vs. And truelie I wounder you are not ashamed to bring such stuffe for the proofe of your faith and doctrine And that in such sorte as you haue lett passe all other and made choyce of this as of moste strength and force Lett the iudicious reader nowe iudge by that which hath been sayde both by you and me whether the scriptures are so clearelie knowne by themselues and by theire owne light that they neede no other proofe to be gods worde and written by his spiritt And whether it he a needles or disorderlie thinge for him that pretendeth to prooue all the points of his faith by holy scripture to prooue first that there is a holie scripture and then to prooue in what bookes it is contayned And lastlie whether because you refusinge traditions and the churches authoritie by which onlie the holy scriptures are knowne cannot prooue the scriptures to be such and therefore receiuinge them vpon the credit of your owne fancie which consequentlie must be the fundamentall rule of your whole Faith doe not recurre to that shifte to say that the scriptures are so euident of themselues that they neede noe other proofe or testimonie but themselues MANVALL SECTION 7. And here occur by the way two thinges worthy of note The one that the scripture cannot be an vniuersall rule of our faith seeinge somethinges are to be beleeued without proofe of scripture as are for example that there is an holy scripture contayninge gods worde and reuelation and that these these bookes be such therefore of necessitie must there be some other rule of our faith more vniuersall then the scriptures and consequentlie before the scriptures And this cannot be but the authoritie of gods churche which is clearely S. August doctrine who was not a frayde to say I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the church doth moue me Seeinge therefore the authoritie of the churche is a sufficient motiue for vs to beleeue what is scripture why shoulde it not haue the like authoritie with vs in other points of faith which is also S. Aug argument in the same place but I will notwithstandinge satisfie our aduersaries in theire owne humour PILK Your former grounde beinge a bedd of sande that scriptures cannott be prooued by scriptures these conclusions that you doe builde vppon it doe of themselues fall to the grounde CHAMP When you shall followinge your principles proue out of the scripture either that there is a scripture or in what bookes it is contayned without supposinge some scripture without proofe then may you terme my grounde to be a bedd of sande and I will also beleeue it so to be But till then I will esteeme it a rock that
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
auncient father whome neuerthelesse you regarde no further then you canne make them speake your language which if they doe not you canne shaue theire lockes and scrape theire tounges and make them pronounce Siboleth for Shiboleth as your purginge indexes doe proclayme vnto the worlde CHAMP This arte of shauinge and scrapinge I leaue to you and yours who are so accustomed thereunto that they cannot deale otherwise Your industrie in this kinde hath been sufficientlie shewed in the fewe precedent pages Our Indexes doe not corrupt the fathers wordes and sentences as you foolishlie or maliciouslie insinuate but they note plainlie the faults of later writers which plaine and open dealinge if you would vse no fault would be found with you PILK Fiftlie you will answere these scriptures which seeme to contradict your faith Then if the same right beloÌ„ge to Accius that is to Titius you will afforde your aduersarie the like libertie CHAMP You are not prohibited to vse it to your best and moste aduantage PILK Sixtlie you will sett downe the contradictory positions that the reader may iudge and the answerer finde what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to the purpose But some of these positions you haue deuised out of your owne brayne which noe protestant euer allowed and so you fight with your owne shadowe and then triumph as Tereus the poet Vicimus exclamat mecum mea vota feruntur CHAMP You haue your answere to this in the refutation of your rolle of forged positions Looke backe thither and see whether you or I may be sayde to be deuisers or forgers of false positions MANVALL SECTION 10. Who is to vnderstande that though the protestants doe maintayne the negatiue parte in almost all the positions contiouerted betweene them and the catholikes yet is he not for all that not to be excused from the proofe of those points vnlesse he will withall confesse that in theÌ„ the protestants haue no faith at all but onlie a meere denyall of faith For faith beinge not a simple denyinge or not beleeuinge but a positiue assent and beleefe of such articles as are reuealed vnto vs by God it hath positiue groundes whereby it may and ought to be prooued euen in those points which are negatiue And therefore as catholikes doe prooue theire faith in these negatiue pointes that onlie faith doth not iustifie that we are not certaine of our iustification or saluation and the like So likewise are the protestants to prooue theire faith in these that there is no purgatorie no reall presence no sacrifice of the Masse and the rest vnles as is sayde before they will coÌ„fesse that they haue no fayth in these points but onlie a meere deniall of faith For it is a farre different thinge not to beleeue purgatorie to be for example and to beleeue purgatory not to be The first being a meeâ—e negatiue or deniall of anie act of faith the secoÌ„d beinge a positiue act of faith of a negatiue obiect Hauinge thus aduertised the good reader of these fewe thinges I leaue thee to peruse the treatise it selfe desiringe thee to expect onlie the bare positions prooued with the selfe text of holy scripture and some fewe fathers without anie flourishe of wordes att all The worke beinge such as it doth rather resemble the bones of a great bodie tyed together with dryed sinewes then a body througlie furnished with fleshe and other habiliments of friendlie nature For which cause thoughe to such as rather respect fashion then substance it may happe to appeare hideous yett to others of contrarie appetite for whose contentment it is speciallie intended it will not peraduenture be iudged altogether without forme PILK If non credimus quia non legimus bea sufficient argument as both the scriptures and the fathers teach vs we shall with noe great difficultie prooue our faith as well in the negatiue as in the affirmatiue CHAMP Non credimus quia non legimus is not a sufficient argument of faith but in such points only as are prooued neither by tradition nor by scripture of which sorte was the heresie of Heluidius denyinge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed virgin which falsitie beinge contrarie to the receiued tradition of the whole church not prooued by holy scripture was sufficientlie refuted by S. Hierome sayinge non credimus quia non legimus Which saying is not any argument for the deniall of such articles of faith as are proued either by scripture or traditions much lesse for them that are proued by bothe PILK For S. Paule proouinge Christe to be aboue the angells in regarde of his originall that he is the sonne of God Heb. 1. 5. and in regarde of his maiestie that he sitteth at his right hande verse 13. taketh his argument from the scriptures negatiuelie To none of the Angells he sayde c. CHAMP S. Paule taketh not his negatiue argument from the scriptures onlie but absolutly from all diuine testimonie sayinge Cui Angeloruâ— dâ—â—â— Or if you will haue S. Paule to argue out of the scriptures only tell me out of what scripture he concludeth this Nonne omnes suns administratoris spiritus in ministerium missi propter eoâ— oui hereditatem caâ—iunâ— salutis vnles you will suppose that for graunted vnto you which is in controuersie to wit that there iâ— no other diuine testimonie but that which is written this instance of S. Paules argument serueth you for nothinge PILK S. August often chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche out of the scripture and he will beleeue if not he will reiect them speciallie in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae if they cannott saith he reade these thinges in the scripture but persuade them by their contentioÌ„s I will beleeue those thinges that are written in the scriptures I beleeue not those thinges that are spoken by vaine heretikes I receiue not that which from without the scripture saith Tertullian thou producest of thyne owne without the scriptures our sences or expositions haue no creditt saith Origen Who will speake when the holy scriptures speake not saith Ambrose Many saith Hierome thinke Zacharie to be the Father of Iohn and that he was slayne because he preached the comminge of Christe This thinge because it hath no authoritie from scripture is with like facilitie contemned as it is prooued CHAMP All these sayinges of the fathers howe trulie soeuer cited which I will not stande heere to examine doe prooue if they prooue anie thinge that you are bound to produce positiue testimonies out of the scriptures for your negatiue faith if you will be thought to haue anie faith att all in them and not a meere denyall or negation of faith For you must vnderstande that it is one thinge to beleeue that there is noe purgatorie for example and another thinge not to beleeue that there is a purgatorie The first beinge a positiue act of faith requiringe also a positiue testimonie and reuelation of God thoughe of a negatiue article
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and
Apostles did so CHAMP This argument is all moste as wicked as the precedent For if it conclude anie thinge it prooueth the Apostles to haue preached nothinge but S. Iohns gospell And consequentlie all the rest of the newe testament either to be Apocripha or at least not to be anie way necessarie to saluation This man thou seest iudicious reader to be as little a friende to scripture as to traditions seeing to impugne the one he destroyeth the other Is this your sworde Mr. Minister wherewith you would pearce and wounde your aduersary no wise man I thinke but will say it was made to cutt your owne throate with rather then to drawe one droppe of blood of your aduersarie But you will bringe sharper weapons out of the fathers You should remember that the testimonies out of the fathers should be explications of the scriptures cited for the same purpose and not theire single sayinges But lett vs take them as they are PILK Proofe 4. We know not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from them by whome the ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered it vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP This authoritie hath been once or twice satisfied before and it saith not they wrote all they preached but the same doctrine which they preached they writt and not a diuerse or contrarie as some heretikes fabulouslie taught against whome S. Ireneus there writeth and this is the true meaninge of that place as anie one that looketh thereon will easilie see PILK Proofe 5. These thinges are chosen to be written which are sufficient for the saluation of the beleeuers CHAMP This is true and not against the catholike doctrine of traditions For he that beleeueth that which is written beleeueth sufficient for his saluation if he haue not repugnancie in his minde not to beleeue anie more PILK Proofe It is a manifest defection from faith and the crime of pride either for to refuse anie thinge of those that are written or to bringe in that which is not written as our Sauiour Iesus Christe saith my sheepe heare my voyce CHAMP It is an equall crimeÌ„ to denie that which is written and to bringe in anie thinge not written contrarie to that which is written as the Arrians did who made Christe to be a creature different in substance from his father contrarie to that which is written in manie places And this is S. Basills playne doctrine which is nothinge for your purpose nor against me PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The catholike churche ought not to beleeue these traditions which the papists say the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth onlie in the same degree of faith with these thinges that are written Proofe 1. Esay 8. 20. To the lawe and the testaments if they speake not accordinge to this worde it is because there is no light in them Argument That which speaketh not accordinge to the lawe and testimonie hath no truth and is not to be credited as the lawe But papists traditions are so CHAMP The answere to your argument shall be to returne it vppon you in this manner That which speaketh accordinge to the lawe and testimonie is true and is to be credited as the lawe it selfe But such are catholike traditions Ergo. PILK Proofe Gall. 1. 8. 9. But thoughe we or an Angell from heauen preach anie other gospell vnto you then that which we haue preached lett him be accursed as we sayd before so say I nowe againe if anie man preach anie other gospell vnto you then you haue receiued lett him be accursed Argument That which is not the same but another besides that which Paule preached is not to be credited but accursed But popish traditions are so CHAMP I must needes say that the catholike doctrine shoulde be verie weake indeede if it should be ouerthrowne with such lame and limpinge arguments that haue not so much as one good legge to stand vppon And what shall we say then of the protestants doctrine that is supported by such bean-strawe pillars Your maior were it true woulde conclude all the Apostles writinges besisides S. Paules to be accursed at leaste in all such thingeâ— as are not found in S. Paule Your minor may as easilie be affirmed of S. Iohns Gospell or anie other booke of the bible So that your conclusion is like to be verie protestanticall See therfore howe stronglie you haue prooued your protestant position or antithesis and consequentlie howe deepelie you haue wounded your aduersarie Euer so blinde may the enemies of gods churche be to impugne it in this manner so longe as they doe impugne it PILK Proofe 2. Petri. 1. 18. 19. And this voice which came from heauen we heard when we were with him in the holy Mount We haue also a more sure worde of prophecie whereunto you doe well that you take heede as vnto a light that shineth in a darke place vntill the day dawne and the day-starre arise in your harts Argument That which is more firme and sure then reuelation from heauen not then written is more to be credited then anie thinge nowe not written but the scriptures are such CHAMP Doe you thinke that the writinge of anie reuelation maketh it more firme or that it receiueth anie increase of authoritie thereby you seeme to be of this opinion but it is moste absurde to thinke For the authoritie all reuelations haue is from God almightie and not from the writinge of them in paper or parchment And therefore the prophecie S. Peter speaketh of whether it were written or vnwritten for he saith not it was written but rather the contrarie tearminge it a propheticall speach or sermon is sayde by him to be more firme then the testimonie receiued in the holy mount because that had been auncientlie promulgated credited and receiued whereas this had neuer yett bin preached or proposed to be beleeued and therefore no maruell though that were esteemed more firme then this hitherto hadd been not because this had not been written but because it had not been preached or published att all till that tyme. PILK Proofe Iohn 5. 36. 37. 38. 39. But I haue greater witnes then that of Iohn for the workes which the Father hath geuen me to finishe the same workes that I doe beare witnes of me that the Father hath sent me And the Father himselfe which hath sent me hath borne witnes of me Yee haue neither heard his voice at anie tyme nor seene his shape And yee haue not his worde abidingâ— in you for whome he sent him yee beleeue not Searche the scriptures for in them yee haue eternall life and they are they which testifie of me Argument That which is greater then the testimonie of Iohn is more to be credited then anâ—e thinge not written But the scriptures are greater then the testimonie of Iohn CHAMP The farther you goe the more foolishe and impertinent still you