much as the condition of times at the least is altered in this that now none that are of the yeeres of discretion are baptised and the inconueniences of those same olde Canons are euident ynough that those same Churches doe verie well which so take order for the vse of baptisme that neyther infantes as much as may be bee depriued of Baptisme not that their superstition be nourished which tye saluation vnto Baptisme neither if it bee possible that Baptisme bee separated from the dayly preaching of the woord 151. Question But doest thou thinke that nothing ought to be determined concerning the place Answeare Yea seeing all thinges must be doone in the Churche comely and in order And forasmuch as Baptisme is a parte of the mynisterie of the Gospell I thinke that one and the fame place is too bee vsed both for the woorde and Sacramentes so as Baptisme bee ministred in the publike congregation of the Churche and with common prayer neyther will I rashly admitte those I cannot tell what cases of necessitie that some alleadge to the contrary Question But what doest thou thinke concerning the rites themselues Answeare I thinke that we ought to stand too the woord of God Question But it seemeth that the woorde of God requireth a thorow dipping into the water Answeare I graunt that the name it selfe of baptisme being taken in the precise and straight signification doth declare no lesse neyther is it any maruayle that this was obserued in those of the yeeres of discretion especially in Iewrie and those same hotte countries in which it might be done without any danger of health But I thinke that wee must looke vnto the verie end of baptisme it selfe which it is plaine also that wee keepe in the simple sprinkling of water vpon the infants wet therewith like as sprinkling was sufficient in those same purifications of the law in which also our baptisme was shadowed neither ought we greatly to striue whether with litle or much water the whole body be dipped in or the head only sprinkled Question What thinkest thou of that same threefold dipping Answeare It appeareth out of Tertullian that this was then receiued against the vnitie of persons But howesoeuer it bee why may we not aswel vse one dipping alone that it may be signified that wee indeede are baptized into three persons as by the wordes of Baptisme it selfe is vnderstoode but yet notwithstanding into one God For it is as daungerous to multiply the essence as to appointe one onely person But generally I think we ought not to stryue either of one or of threefolde dippyng or sprinckling which also seemed vnto Gregory Bishop of Rome in his first booke Epistle 41. 26. 153. Question But heere againe there is another thing that I woulde learne of thee whether thou think that this fourme I baptise thee in the name or into the name of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost bee precisely and in so many wordes and sillables necessarily to bee vsed For thou art not ignoraunt that the Grecians say let the seruaunt of Christ bee baptized into the name of the Father Answeare I say here omitting the quidities and subtilties of the schoolemen that two extreemes are diligently to be shunned of vs to witte that we neyther fall into the impietie of Magitians who faigne a certaine vertue in some certain wordes forasmuch as we haue said before as wordes in them selues haue nothing els but the force of signification neyther let vs thinke likewise that it is lawfull for vs in the institution of the Lorde so as it is prescribed of him in certayn words to chaunge any thing at all And nowe in very deede concerning that first pointe if there had bene any power and vertue in the letters sounds of the sillables themselues the Apostles must alwayes haue vsed the Syriach tongue forasmuch as it is plaine that our Lorde Iesus Christe spake in the same tongue Therefore he chaungeth nothing in the matter it selfe which speaketh the same thing which Christe him self hath instituted in that lāguage that they vse that are to bee baptized Yea hee that doeth otherwise as at this day is done in that counterfeite Church of Rome hee doeth euill because the Lorde will that those thinges be spoken with vnderstanding to his which hee would haue to be beleeued and done of all 154. Question I beseech thee therfore if the baptizer vse a straunge tongue not vnderstood of any whether is the baptisme ratified or no Answeare The efficacy or vertue of Baptisme doth not depend of the Baptizer so that hee as I haue sayde want not a vocation although it bee faultie And seeyng that Infantes haue as muche intelligence if thou speake in a strange tongue as if thou shouldest speake in thine owne language of the fruites of Baptisme which belongeth vnto them which afterwardes are come to theyr groweth doe depende vpon preachyng and Fayth which doe succeede in theyr tyme. But the calling vpon the name of the Lorde in others can not be in vayne although it bee wonderfully defiled by theyr faulte who preaching the worde or administring the Sacrament in the Church vse a straunge tongue 155. Question Is the Minister therefore precisely bound to vse the fourme commaunded by Christ the wordes onely altered by the sound of an other tongue Answeare Surely there can fal out no iust cause that may excuse any chaunge in so fewe words wherein that same whole perfect mysterie of the diuinitie is declared Question What therefore if any man should say indeede of the Father begetter for the Sonne begotten for the holy Ghost proceeding What if in steede of three distinct persons hee shoulde call vpon the Trinitie Answeare To what purpose I pray thee are these thinges the Lord hath commaunded in this mystery that we should not call vpon the personall proprieties but vpon the persons them selues and that vppon them distinctly I will therefore neuer admitte any affectate or deuized fourme in steede of that which is lawfull Question Muche lesse then wouldest thou admyt the takyng out of any person or any hereticall addition as if any man should say the Father greater the Sonne lesser or the holy Ghost onely proceeding from the Father Answeare Thou thinkest rightly For neither were this the Baptisme of the Church of Christ 156. Question But what thinkest thou of these same speeches I baptise thee or by the seruaunt of Christe bee Baptized Answeare Christ hath not prescribed vnto his Ministers what or howe many wordes they shoulde vse in the function of his ministery but hee hath defined the act it selfe when he commaundeth them to Baptise into the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Therefore they neyther adde nor diminishe from the worde of God but satisfie their office when they expound the institution of our Lorde it selfe vnto the bearers And when they bee come vnto the actuall fourme it selfe as I may say of the administration whether they
in the place where the Sacrament is administred 42 How whole Christ and al that belongeth to Christ differ 43 The difference in respect of another thing or another and for it selfe 44 That whole Christ but not the whole of Christ is present in what place soeuer the Sacramentes are administred 45 The chiefe head of the controuersie of the reall presence of Christes flesh 46 Foure opinions of the reall presence of the fleshe of Christ why they stray from the trueth 47 A speciall manner of Christes presence is required in the Sacrament 48 The maner of this speciall presence is to be esteemed by the end 49 The presence of Christ meerely respectiue set forth by examples 50 The reall presence and the sacramental presence diuerse 51 The sacramental presence dependeth vpon the onely will of God 52 The reall distance of the substances of the signe and things signified doth not make frustrate the Sacramentes Of the partaking of the signes and thinges signified 53 The bodily signes are receiued by the instrumentes of the body 54 The benefits of Christ seeing they are qualities are onely receiued of the mynde endued with fayth 55 Neither the person of the worde nor the soule of Christ can otherwise bee receiued of vs then by an effectual vertue and operation 56 The cleauing or sticking of the same body with ours is monstrous 57 Notwithstāding it behoueth vs to be vnited to Christ himselfe in deeed but spiritually 58 Why this partaking and communicating of Christ himself is called spiritual 59 Why the same is called mysticall 60 Why the same is called an vniting 61 The cōmuniō of the substāce of Christ himselfe is confirmed by similitudes 62 What in effect our communion with Christ himself is wherto it tendeth 63 Why there is rather mention made of the flesh then of the god heade in our vniting togeather with Christ 64 Although Christ cā be only applied to the mind endued with faith yet the fruit of this applicatiō belongeth to the body 65 Christ himselfe is truely communicated by faith not only in the simple word but also in either of the sacramentes 66 What difference there is betwene the meere spiritual sacramētal partaking of Christ 67 Christ himself with the same his gifts was the matter of the olde types and sacramentes 68 Augustine rightly said that the Sacramēts can haue no astonishmēt as wōders The cōparing of the old new sacramēts 69 The olde Sacramentes agree in some things with the later in som things they disagree amongest themselues 70 In what thinges they agree 71 In what thinges they disagree 72 The multitude of Sacramentes doeth not make the state of the olde Fathers better 73 How the proportion of our Sacramentes is more significant then of the Fathers 74 The Fathers and wee haue eaten the same meate 75 76 Howe the fleshe of Christe not yet beyng indeede was eaten of the fathers Of the Sacramentall formes of speaking 77 The Scripture doeth speake sometime properly and sometime figuratiuely of the Sacramentes 78 What Sacramentall formes are proper 79 The firste Sacramentall figuratiue forme is that whereby the name of the Element is attributed to the thing signified 80 The other forme whereby the name of the thing signified is attributed too the element 81 The third kynde whereby the effecte of the thing signified is attributed to the signes 82 The fourth kind whereby that which is proper to the signes is attributed to the thing signified 83 A metaphoricall body not therefore too bee imagined of vs in the Sacramentes 84 Whether to beleeue and too eate the fleshe of the Lord be all one 85 The Sacramentall figuratiue formes doe not darken but make playne those thinges which are taught of the Sacramentes 86 What the vse is of the Sacramental figuratiue formes Of the number of the Sacraments of Christians 87 That there are onely two Sacraments of the Christian Church Of Baptisme 88 What the woorde Baptisme importeth 89 What baptisme is being taken for the first Sacrament of the christian church Of the outward Baptisme 90 What the signes of baptisme are 91 Of the forged signes added too Baptisme Of the thinges signified in Baptisme 92 The thing that is signified by the Element of water 93 The thing signified by the rytes of baptisme 94 Why baptisme was ordayned in steed of olde washinges 95 The sprinkling of the water of Baptisme is signified by the ancient sprinkling of the blood 96 What it is to put on Christ 97 What the outward washing in baptisme is 98 How we dye are buryed and rife agayne with Christ in baptisme 99 After what maner Christ may be said to be dead buried and raysed from the dead for our sinnes 100 How mutuall fellowship in Christ is established in Baptisme Of the paterne answering to the figure of Baptisme 101 What the Exemplar is and what the respōdent figures of baptisme is 102. Baptisme not onely a signe but also a seale 103 The causes parts of Baptisme 104 What the formal woorde of Baptisme is 105 What it is to baptize into the name of the father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost 106 The Apostles haue chaunged nothing in the formall worde of baptisme 107 What the effectes of baptisme are and from whence they arise 108 Sinne is one thing and sinnes another 109 What the remission of sinnes is 110 What regeneration is 111 At what time the effecte of baptisme beginneth 112 Baptisme abolisheth not sinnes only past 113 How farre foorth originall sinne ii taken away by baptisme Sundrie Questions concerning Baptisme 114 How farre foorth Baptisme is necessary to saluation 115 Whether the Baptisme of Iohn and of Christ was all one 116 All are not to be baptised 117 The faith of him that is to be baptized doth not necessarily goe before baptisme 118 Those are to be baptised which are comprehended within the Tables of the couenant 119 Profession of faith is required of those that are growne to yeeres of discretion being to be baptised 120 Children of Turkes are not to be admitted to Baptisme 121 Neither of the Iewes 122 123 The children which are borne eyther of the Parents being a Beleeuer are probably thought to belong vnto the couenant of Christ 124 We please God also being about to beleue not yet beleeuing 125 The promises beeing of the lawe in themselues are made of the Gospel Christ 126 What the faith of Parentes auaileth to their children 127 The particular hidden iudgementes of God are to be left to God concerning the children of the godly 128 What Baptisme sealeth in children not yet beleeuing in act 129 Whence those Questions sprang sometime accustomed to be made in the baptisme of infants 130 Why the children of Papistes may be baptised 131. 132. The Church yet too be in the papacie although papistrie be not christianitie 133 A papist beeyng of the yeeres of discretion and not yet baptized is not foorthwith to bee baptized 134
An ende of the Table of the Questions ¶ To the Christian Reader GENTLE Reader concernyng the words of arte contained in this booke I muste pray thee to take a litle paines by the circumstances to gather the meaning of thē If I shoulde as some other haue done make them speake English yet if thou be ignorant of the arts they woulde in myne opinion haue bene as darke to thy vnderstanding and muche darker then they be nowe And that may easily appeare by those curious heads that haue gone about too make Logique speake Englishe both to the disagracing of it and also to the lessening of the force and signification of those woordes of Art which al Artes haue must haue proper and peculiar to them selues but if thou will marke the matter diligently that which goeth before and followeth it shall bee easie for thee to vnderstande what the Authour meaneth In meane tyme I for my parte haue done the best I can and will bee glad to learne at the feete of any that shall teach me better The Lorde Iesus increase our knowledge and giue vs Fayth in him for euer Amen Farewell the 3. of May. 1580. I. F. Errata 3. Question For Ceremonies whiles read which whilest 15 For from them reade for them Ibidem For condemning that hold reade condemning those that holde Ibidem For wordes and omnipotencie reade in the omnipotencie 55 For who is not being put out being 59 For miserie read mystery 94 For often repentance read vsaunce I55 For the some read same Ibidem For in deede reade in steede 169 For mad read mad 201 For suche tyme of men reade suche kinde of men 940 For thē attribute read the atribute 228 For as often things vnlike reade as often as c. 288 For when had read when he had ¶ The second parte of Christian Questions wherin is mainteined the true opinion of the Sacraments By Theodore Beza Vezelius Question I. WHat is a Sacrament Answeare All the old Latine Diuines almost haue so turned that same Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 peraduenture following the common translation of the Latine interpreter of the Bible who in most places hath so expressed it Question Verily I doe graunt this thing but I doe meruaile that the Prophets Apostles the very Writers of both the Testaments do in no place call those which we cal the old new sacramēt Sud or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For that same place of S. Paule to the Ephe. 5. 32. doeth not pertayne vnto the action it selfe but rather vnto the effect thereof to wit vnto our vniting and growing vp together with the head itselfe Answeare It is euen so as thou sayest and yet for all that we must not thinke that the Greeke fathers when they called those holy ordinaunces mysteries or the Latine fathers when they called them Sacramentes did adde any thing to the word of God For we are not forbidden for instructiō sake to vse some words be sides the word of God so that we doe it not vnaduisedly neither do change any whit in the doctrine of the prophets and Apostles it selfe 2. Question But wherfore were those same holy ordinances so called Answeare Why the Grecians called those holy ordinances mysteries the thing it selfe sheweth to wit cōparing thē with the simple preaching the worde of God Forindeed this preaching is plain manifest but these ordināces haue a mystical secrete signification because they bee one thing eyt teache another As heathen prophane nations had their mysteries and theyr mysticall secretes whereby after a wonderful maner Satan did bewich men so the first ordeined Christiā churches in Grecia that they might distinguish those holy ordināces to which indeed they that were newely entred into religion were not to bee admitted from the simple Christian doctrine did adde those same words of mysteries secrets of a common vse to signifie holy thinges albeit in times past they were applied to signify most filthie ceremonies 3. Question But it seemeth that the cōsideration of that same latine worde Sacrament should not be altogether the same Answeare Neither in very deede is it But it seemeth to me that the latines borrowed this woorde from that same Sacrament or othe which was woonte too bee vsed of Souldiers wherin they solemnly and in certayne prescript woordes were bound first to the common weale then to the Emperor that plainly appeareth out of that learned and auncient writer Tertullian For so he writeth in his book De Corona Militis I think sayeth he we must search out whether warfare bee meete at al amongst Christians Doe wee not beleeue that it is lawfull too bring in an Humane Sacrament vpon a Diuine and to aunsweare to another Lorde after Christ and to renounce father mother and euery neighboure whom the lawe commaundeth vs to honor and loue next after God By which wordes this also appeareth to be shewed that those same solempne Couenants which were woonte too bee required of those that were newely entred intoo religion Doest thou beleeue I beleeue Doest thou renounce I renounce were taken after a sorte from that same Custome of the warlike oath and so applyed too the Baptisme wherby Christians sware obediēce to Christ the Lorde and King And heereof is that same saying of the same Tertullian too the Martyrs Wee are called to the warfare of the liuing GOD euen then when we answeare to those woordes of the Sacrament And also that of Hieronymus to Helidorus Remember the day of thy nonage wherin beyng buryed with Christe in Baptisme thou swarest too the woordes of the Sacrament Yea and the verie woorde of goyng a warfare is often vsed of Moyses concerning the whole worship of God Now it ought to seem no wonder that the supper of the Lorde began also to be called a Sacrament which both was ioyned with the Baptisme of those that wer newly receiued into religiō as may appeare by the 2. Apology of Iustine out of the olde bookes cōcerning their rites ceremonies also is the pledge of the vowed sworn felowship made in baptisme Question But why was that oth called a Sacrament Answeare Euē bicause souldiers vsing holy rites vowed consecrated themselues with vngodly ceremonies whilst many Christian souldiers refused they suffered martyrdom 4. Question These things concerning the name do satisfie me But this doth not a little trouble me that wheras my mind seemed in our first treatise to be quieted I know not how it falleth out that the very name sacramēt being heard it is again troubled as thogh I know not what newe matter were further to be known of me somuch the rather because there is no cōtrouersie that at this day more embusieth christian Churches then that Answeare This is the craft of Sathan which neuer mocked deceiued mē more being addicted to those outward things thē with the outward worship of God Now here in offence hath byn cōmitted two maner of waies For
proprieties of eyther nature must needes follow which are signified by those abstract woordes Therfore we say rightly and godlyly that God was crucified and dead but it were vngodly wicked to say that the Godhead were crucified or deade Notwithstanding it seemeth to me that this also after a certeine sorte may bee graunted without any damage of the faith to bee sayd of the abstract themselues so that alwayes we adde expresly that it is not spokē in respect of thēselues but for an other that so the cōcrete may be vnderstood by the abstract to be so determined 44. Question Say therefore at the length whether Christ him selfe according to his humaine nature bee present in verie deede and in his owne substance wheresoeuer christian Churches doo administer the Sacraments Answeare I say therefore that whole Christ that is if he be considered as a certaine whole and one thing consisting of two natures to be present truely and indeed not onely in the sacraments but also in all things Notwithstanding I deny that it followeth herevpon that his humaine nature considered in it selfe is any where else thon aboue so far is it of the he can be present at one time by his substance in many places or euerie where And yet againe I graunt that if this humaine nature be considered not in it selfe that is not in respect of it selfe but of another that is if it be so considered as it is one reall being with the woorde of whom it is taken that it is as present euerie where as the word it selfe from which it cannot be drawen not because the selfesame nature is presēt but because it is ioyned with the word which euerie where is present 45. Question Concerning what matter therfore is the cōtrouersie betwixt you thē Answeare Concerning this that aswell they which defend transubstantiatiō as they that defend consubstantiation will haue the humaine nature it selfe at one time to be both aboue and beneath now wee teach that it is onely aboue neither doo we therfore diuide the person 46. Question But doo they place that presence simplie in all things or in the sacraments onely Answeare Such as will haue Christ present in all places at once will haue him in all things in so much as they will not haue Christ as Christ in respect of his substance to be otherwise in vnder or with the breade then in al other things and that by the power of the personall vnion which they determine by the real effusion and pouring foorth of all the vertues of the Godhead into that fleshe taken in which sense they interpret also the assention of Christ into heauen and his sitting at the right hand of god But certain others do so teach this reall presence of Christes flesh to the people that they them selues thinke that Christs flesh hath obteined this of the Godhead to which it is ioyned that it may be in verie deede in many places at tonce as it will the trueth thereof remaining safe and sound but that it appeareth the plaine words of the institution of the Supper that Christ woulde haue his fleshe present there indeede whervpon it should follow that this presence should especially be established in the Sacrament of the Supper other concerning the matter it selfe think the same thing but they fetch this presence from the wordes themselues of the Institution adioyning his sitting at the right hand of the father omitting that same power of the personall vnion To conclude the popish Transubstantiatours condemning that hold vbiquitie place this reall presence in the alone sacrament of the Aultar as they speake sticking in a woorking power of certaine words and omnipotencie of God Question And what thinkest thou of these Answeare I thinke that all these opinions offende in this that either they will not or know not to distinguish betwixt a thing in respect of another in respect of it selfe which ignoraunce vexed the Church so many yeeres by the Nestorians Eutichians and Monathelites And further I say that there is a shame full errour committed in this that they drawe those thinges to a Sacramentall presence which belong too an vniuersal presence and common to all thinges 47. Question Thinkest thou therefore that those thinges which thou hast spoken of the presence of Christes fleshe in respect of another to belong vntoo al thinges Answeare Yea altogether For otherwise thou shouldest determine the Godhead of the Worde to be somewhere absent and therefore not to bee the Godhead Notwithstanding it is a speech lesse hearde in the Concrete if thou shouldest say that Christ euen man rather then the flesh of Christ is euery where in respect of another For that same man is also God notwithstanding not in himselfe but in respect of the other nature too witte the Worde But the humaine nature of Christ is not the Godhead neither in it self nor in respect of the word but if it can be said too bee euery where therefore it is only said because it is one reall beyng with the woorde and so subsisteth in the same Worde euery where present 48. Question What therefore is the Sacramētall coniunction of the signe of Christ himselfe Answeare That which agreeth to the nature of the Sacramentes and too their ende Nowe we haue declared the nature of the Sacramentes to be such that by the signes offring themselues too our outwarde senses our mindes in a cértaine proportion might be carried first indeed to beholde the thinges signified and afterwardes vnto those thinges which are therefore set before vs to bee looked vppon that they may be apprehended and through fayth by the power of the holy Ghost bee more and more applyed vnto our mindes 49. Question To bee short then what maner of presence is this Answeare Certaynly not that which respecteth situation of place but that which is altogether respectiue or rather of relation and belonging too another For a Sacrament is in that predicament which the Logicians call relation Question I woulde gladly haue this made more easie vnto mee Answeare I will doe it if I can but I woulde that now for a while the persons beyng changed that my selfe shoulde take the partes of asking thou of answearing Be not words the notes of those things that we woulde haue signified in euery tongue to the mindes of the hearers by certaine soundes Question Yes verely Answeare What if I shoulde contend that euery thing whereof I shoulde speake must be present in very deede Question Surely that should seeme vnto me very foolish seing we may speake also of things past and of things to come yea of thinges which neuer were are not yet or perhaps neuer shal be Answeare Notwithstanding of whatsoeuer thing I shall speake I shall represent the same by my wordes vnto thy minde Question It is so Answeare Thinges therefore are signified by those voyces wherby they are signified not by a naturall situation and too bee short not by their own substance but by a certaine
application or communicating to be meere spirituall and mysticall 58. Question Why doest thou call it spirituall Answere First that I may shut out all touching of the bodie of Christ with our bodie all locall coherence and existing together and to cōclude that mōstruous opiniō of eating with the mouth as meere Cyclopicall howsoeuer it bee excused with other no lesse fained deuises of not beingseen being without place Next because this pertaking in respect of vs is wrough by the onely hand and mouth of the minde and of faith For this is the meate as Augustine hath verie wel sayd not of the belly but of the minde 59. Question But why doest thou call it mysticall Answeare That I may teach that this knitting together wherby we are made fleshe of his flesh and bones of his bones to witte by a certaine spirituall mariage dooth depend of the only power of the almightie spirt altogether secret and incomprehensible to vs which also knitteth nearely together things most farre asunder Ephe. 5. 30. 32. Therein following the stepps of the Apostle who cryeth out that this is a great misery 60. Question And why also callest thou that communicating an vniting knitting togeather Answeare Because the whole Scripture witnesseth that we must be made one with Christ that we must be incorporated into Christ beknit to him as mēbers to the heade so that he may liue in vs and we in him Now this connexion wee affirme to bee not onely of a certaine consent as when Luke writeth Actes 24. 31 that the heartes and soules of the beleeuers was one but also natural or as Cyril hath very wel writtē that so must be vnderstood the communion of Christ himselfe 61. Question Canst thou shadow out vnto mee after some sort by some fitte similitude this mysterie otherwise incomprehensible Answeare Yes verily that I can euen out of the same similitude of the head and members so vsual with the Apostle I besech thee therefore whēce haue these armes their naturall sense and moouing Surely euen from the heade to which they are knit after a naturall manner as it were by ioyutes sinewes and artiries which otherwise shoulde become deuoyd of all motion and feeling Now imagine with thy selfe that euen as boxes of sweet smelling oyntment doe euen pierce things verie farre of and the secrete Magnes is a stone that hathe the propertie to draw yron vnto it force of the Magnes preuayleth against yron though it be remoued far frō it so is there so much liuely strength in this my heade that although it were at Constantinople and one of myne armes in India and another in Spaine yet notwithstanding by the help of these same fitte and conueniēt ioyntes it is able to giue them life imagine I saye some such thing with thy selfe and thou shalt haue the lyuely Image of this our incorporation into Christe For Christ him selfe according too the fleshe neyther nowe placed any other where then aboue these heauens intoo which hee hath ascended according to the fleshe by a physicall and naturall moouing neyther shall come agayne from thence before that same last day doth so truely and effectually knyt couple and ingreffe into him self al beleeuers placed here in this earth by that same diuine power of his woorking in the matter which is hindered by no distāce of place the afterwards out of his flesh in which life it self dwelleth bodily and which hath not receiued the spirite by measure that same liuely iuice might flowe into vs beleeuing in him 62. Question Therefore there is no neede either of any locall motion or touching or to be short of any placing of the humaine nature of Christ in the earth for this knitting of vs the members vnto our heade Christ neither doth this same communicating of Christ himself tend to this that ther should bee a commixture and mingling of substances but that out of Christ himselfe spiritually so ioyned vnto vs that same quickning power of his should flow into vs. Answeare Fye away I say with al those false and foolish tryfles 63. Question But why doest thou rather make mentiō of the flesh then of the Godheade in this coniunction or knitting togeather Answeare I doo not this as though the God head did nothing here when as contrawise in very deede the very fleshe of Christ simply and considered in it selfe as it is fleshe dooth not quicken vs but because as the Fathers very wittily speake it is the flesh of the woord But in this I follow Christ the Maister expresly repeating the names of his fleshe and bloode in this mysterie of our coniunction with him because we cannot be ioyned with him but by reason of his humaine nature and in asmuch as he is our brother 64. Question But like as thou sayst that this meat is receiued of vs onely by the mynde endued with fayth shall we likewyse thinke that the fruite of this vnion dooth onelye belong vnto the minde Answeare No not so For Christ beyng layde hold vpon of vs by faith in this life doth bestowe vpon vs all good benefites aswell of the bodie as of the minde as many and asmuch as we haue neede of and at the length will also giue vnto vs wholy euerlasting life 65. Question But doest thou restrayne this our vniting with Christ to the only mystery of the Lordes supper as some do Answeare Be it farre from vs. For both in the simple woorde and also in eyther Sacrament albeit in an vnlike proportion neyther equall effect vnlesse our vnbeliefe doe let it whole Christ is offered vnto vs too bee layde holde vpon spiritually by faith so farre is it off that wee shutte Christ out of the Lords Supper as diuers doe sclaunder vs. 66. Question Doest thou thinke then that there is no difference betwixt that dayly partaking of Christ through fayth and that which is made in the Lordes supper Answeare Yea I thinke that there is greate difference vnlesse vnbeliefe let it betwixt that which I call meere spirituall that which is sayd to be sacramentall and yet notwithstanding not concerning the thing it selfe neyther in respect of the instrument of fayth but in this because there onely by the woorde but here also by visible signes our fayth is admonished and the thing signified is sealed Moreouer this partaking excelleth the woorde in this that the simple worde for the most part is vniuersally sette foorth vntoo the people but the Sacramentes are giuen vntoo euerie singular person as it were by the hande of GOD himselfe which thing dooth woonderfully profit vnto that same particular and full perswasion that ought to be in euery one 67. Question 67. Question But doest thou thinke that Christe in like sort was set foorth vnto our olde fathers before his comming into the fleshe and all his benefites aswell in the simple worde as in the types and Sacramentes ioyned to the worde also to bee apprehended and layde holde off by fayth Answeare I
am altogether persuaded so for the self same Christ yea the same whole Christ both in his audible worde and also in his visible wordes that is to say in the Sacraments is set foorth to the selfe same ende 68. Question I had almost quite forgotten that which I woulde gladly haue asked of thee to wyt howe it is that Sainct Augustine writeth as thou hast cyted that the Sacramentes can worke no suche astonishment as miraculous thinges doe if that same mystery of the vniting of Christ and his Church together be so wonderfull Answeare I haue answered vnto that alreadie that it is one thing to aske of the Sacramentes themselues another thing of those thinges which God doth worke by the vse of them Augustine therefore doeth very well forbyd whether we respect the nature of the Sacramentes or the Sacramentes them selues that they should bee numbred amongest miracles because it is not straunge neyther also against the order of naturall thinges that some thing for the analogie and proportion and also by the couenaunt of men shoulde bee vsed for the signifying of some thing altogether differing from the nature thereof For I beseeche thee what miracle is it that the betrothing of maryage to come shoulde be signified by a Ryng and putting into possession of houses should not onely be signified by the deliuering of a Keye but also confirmed There is the lyke reason altogether to bee had of the Sacramentes although not particularly yet generally albeit those thinges which God worketh in vs if wee rightly vse the Sacramences doe exceede the vnderstandyng euen of the very Angels them selues 69. Question But that which thou hast spoken of our Sacramentes doest thou also thinke of those same olde Sacraments Answeare I say both twayne in those thinges which are as I may say of the substāce of the Sacrament it selfe doe altogether agree but they differ in certaine circumstances 70. Question Shewe me therefore how they doe agree Answeare First of all they agree in the efficient cause For Christ our onely lawgiuer appoynted both these and them further they agree in the inwarde thing it selfe For Christe was that same tree of lyfe in Paradise that same Lambe slayne from the beginnyng of the worlde that same Paschall of the Fathers takyng away the sinnes of the worlde that same spirituall Rocke that same meate and drynke of the Fathers which thyng also is to be thought of those same types and figures and to bee short of all the olde Sacraments For very ryghtly and truelye sayeth Augustine in the six and twentie Treatise vppon Iohn that the Sacraments of the Fathers in respect of the signes were diuers from oures but concernyng the signification they were alyke They agree also in the worde concernyng the substaunce albeit the voyces be not the same For there is signified in the worde of institution that Christ and his gifts are offered vnto vs in either to the Fathers as to come but to vs which come already moreouer in both two there is found the selfe same instrument of applying him and the same Fayth in diuerse signes as the same Augustine saith in his 45. treatise vpon Iohn Also the selfe same end and effect is in both of them For Circumcision was both the signe and the seale of righteousnes by faith Rom. 4. 11. And the Fathers were circumcised in Christe with the circumcision of the heart made without handes Col. 2. 7. 71. Question But in what thinges differ they Answere Firste they differ in the signes by which I vnderstande the Sacramentall rytes them selues which we haue more spiritual fewer lesse laborsome further in the playnesse of the word which in ours is much more clearer whervpō also groweth another difference in the very measure of the efficacy and operation it selfe For the more playne and manifest the woorde is the more ought wee to be moued and therfore the more effectual ought our faith to be Wherto also belong the woordes of the selfsame Augustine that our Sacrament are fewer easier more significant and more full of Maiestie to which also that may bee added that these differ in this because they were instituted onely vntill the comming of Christe but ours shall take no end but with the worlde 72. Question If it bee so as thou sayest it appeareth vnto me that the state of the Fathers was mightier in twoo greate thinges then ours First because they had more then because they had more significant helpes of faith then wee Answeare But I pray thee whethers weakenesse of the bodie wouldest thou iudge to be greater his that hath need of two staies to vphold his going or his which leaning vpon one staffe doth easily goe anie whither Question Surely I woulde thinke him twofolde weaker then the other Answeare Euen so perswade thy selfe of the estate and condition of those fathers For the multitude of Sacraments sheweth not that theyr condition was the better but contrariwise that it was worse For neither should our faith if it were strong ynough of it selfe neede the Sacramentes 73. Question But certainly it seemeth that there was in those Sacramentes a more playne Analogie or proportion of the signes with the thinges signified For in very deede the flesh and blood of those slayne sacrifices did more playnely represent the fleshe and blood of Christe crucified then bread and wine and Manna falling downe from heauen did after a sorte more liuely set before our eies the incarnation of the word also the water flowing out of the opened rocke the blood of Christe flowing out of his wounded side then the breaking of bread the powring out of wine into the cup. Answeare In good sooth those not yet done but to be done ought to bee represented too the fathers by a more grosse proportion then vnto vs bicause that it is farre harder to beleeue thinges to come then already done and witnessed by a sure and playne historie Therefore as thou hast sayde those signes did signifie the thing to come more grossely palpably But in this thou art specially deceiued that thou thinkest the more grosse the Analogie or proportion is that the more significant it is Question Why so Answeare Because the thinges signified by the Sacramentes are heauenly which fleshe and bloode teache not but that same onely Maister of trueth the holie Ghost wherevppon all Beleeuers are sayde by Esay and by Christ himselfe Esay 5. 14. Iohn 6. 4 5. to be taught of GOD. Therefore the efficacie of the Analogie or proportion dependeth vppon the woorde whereby is sette foorth both what it is and whereto it tendeth Question Wilt thou bee so good as to sette downe some similitude whereby I may more fully vnderstand what this matter meaneth Answeare Verily I am very well content that also the mouthes of the Sophisters may be shut vp If thou beyng altogether ignorant of these mysteries shouldest see some circumcised what wouldest thou thinke of it Question Surely I would thinke the Parents to
fruites which flowe vntoo vs out of the fleshe of Christe or out of Christe accordyng to the fleshe shutting out that same pertaking of Christe himselfe and of those thinges which he afterwardes suffered for our sake thou doest euen as if reasoning of this same bodily life thou wouldest haue them too bee nourished with meate who notwithstanding doe not in any sort receiue the substance of meats 76. Question What therefore in summe sayest thou is to be determined concerning this matter Answeare To witte that both before God himselfe promising and before the eyes of our fayth Iesus Christe was alwayes present and also the whole mysterye of performing our saluatiō the which he in very deed bestowed vpon all beleeuers al beleeuers as wel in the simple word as in the Sacramēts added to the word truely and effectually embraced For Iohn 8. 56. Abraham with the eyes of faith saw the day of the Lorde which is a subsisting of thinges which yet were not that is to which now after a certayne sort those thinges existe which in verie deede are not Notwithstanding I graunt the thing it selfe that is to say that Christ himselfe was not in act geuē vnto them according too the fleshe or as they speake indeed but by right onely Question But what meaneth this thing Answere I wil speake therefore more plainly and now I say in deede that Christ geuen with all his giftes was both signified by the simple worde and in the sacramentes of the new Testament and offered vnto vs to be spiritually by faith as wee haue sayde layde holde vppon too righteousnesse sanctification and euerlasting life that the Fathers had right to the selfe same Christ that was to be borne and to all his giftes bothe by the simple word also by the promises added to the same word that therefore the fathers were euē then truely accompted the mēbers of Christ that was to bee borne through the power of the same spirite by the same faith likewise were indeed truely iustified sanctified in him to come to conclude that theyr condition differeth from ours not indeed but as they speak in the scholes according to more and lesse For Christ is one the same things which he hath doone for our sake are the same which wee looke for from him and our faith is the same whether it respect things to come or those things that yet are not or those thinges that are already past 77. Question When I consider the maner of speeches which belong vntoo the Sacraments mee thinkes that I find somewhat to obiect against thee touching those things that thou hast spoken of the signification of the signes of the thing signified and also as touching that which thou hast intreated of our partaking with Christ Answeare Those Phrases of speech not onely Sacramentall but also figuratiue are partly proper and partly borrowes 78. Question Which are proper Answeare Those be proper which distinctly attribute that too the signe which belongeth to the signe and that to the thing which belongeth to the thing as when Circumcision is called the signe of the couenant Gen. 17. 11. Also the signe and seale of the righteousnes of faith Ro. 4. 11. And the blood of the Lambe the signe Exo. 12. 13. And the sabboth the signe of calling too memory the creation of the world sealing the peculiar cōsecration of the people of Israel Exod. 31. 13. 17. And those same twoo censures a signe calling intoo their remembraunce that same conspiracie of Dathan Abiron Num. 16 38. So the outward ministery of man considered a parte from the inwarde is said to be nothing 1. Cor. 3. 7. So the outwarde baptisme of water is properly distinguished frō the inwarde efficacie of the spirit 1. Pet. 3. 21. Question But I finde in no place that this same worde Signe is attributed too Baptisme or too the Lordes supper Answeare Why then denye them too bee Sacramentes For Sacramentes vndoubtedly are signes Yea and the Papists themselues do grant that the substance of water and the Sacramentall rites of Baptisme are signes in that same Sacrament of theirs of the Aultar they do at least appoynt the formes for signes Further the thing it selfe is most euident that that is true which Irenaeus witnesseth that I may passe ouer the other fathers that they consist of one earthly of an heauenly mater whereof it must needes bee that that be the signe of this 79. Question And what are those same Sacramentall or figuratiue formes Answeare First of all they are those thinges to which the name of the Element is attributed too the thing signified as when the Lambe is said to be the passeouer Exod. 12. 11. Question And yet there be some which say that the Pesach or Passeouer is properly spoken of the passing it selfe Answeare Go to be it so But yet verely the passyng it selfe can not be eaten therefore they must in that place at the least graunt that the Lambe it selfe is called the passeouer where the passeouer is sayde to be prepared eaten So Christ is called of Iohn the Lambe of GOD and is sayde of Saint Paule to bee the passeouer 1. Cor. 5. 7. Christians are one bread 1. Cor. 10. 17. 80. Question These thinges verely satisfie mee Go forwarde I pray thee declare vnto me the other sortes of sacramental speeches Answeare The other sorte is directly contrary to this whereby the name of the thing it selfe is attributed to the Element So the stone set vp by Iacob is called Bethel Gen. 28. 22. So the seuen kyne and the seuen eares are seuen yeares Gen. 41. 27. So the name of Iehouah in innumerable places is attributed to the Arke of the couenaunt yea and to the very Altar of Moses Exod. 17. 15. So by the name of the tongue of Canaan is vnderstoode the profession of pure religion Esai 19. 18. So the name of the holy Ghost is attributed to the Doue Iohn 1. 33. To bee shorte so the Rocke was Christ Question Yea but that same bodily Rocke was not saide to bee Christe but that same spirituall Rocke Answeare I knowe very well that same sophisticall startinghole as though forsooth this were spoken of the thing it selfe and not of the signe But what will these foolishe Sophisters answeare if I shoulde aske them whether Paul yet ment not that same Rocke whereout that ryuer of waters flowed Surely they coulde answeare nothing whereby their sophistrie should not be easily conuinced For they must needes come to this poynte that they must confesse that the name of spirituall Rocke was in respecte of that very naturall Rocke attributed to Christ in respect of the bodily Rocke that is as they them selues interprete it considered spiritually and so far forth as it was a figure Therfore they snarle them selues in their owne snares or els they must graunt that Christe was called the Rocke because he was shadowed by a spiritual significatiō taken from
seale of the promise of euerlasting life but some certayn thing that God hath simply appoynted also for this end that he might signifie some other thing to be fulfilled in the newe Testament So in that Noah was saued out of the waters and by the waters themselues in the Arke it was a Type or figure of Baptisme wherby the Churche shut vp as it were in Christe is saued So Israel passing through the Sea and comming safe thorowe a Cloude from Heauen shrowding them it represented the Mysterye of the same Baptisme 102. Question But why doest thou vse the worde of sealing Answeare That I may meete with the slaunders of them that say that we take baptisme onely as a token or rather onely as it were a difference whereby Christians are distinguished from them that bee no Christians forasmuche as this sacrament succeeded Circumcisiō which was not onely a signe but also a seale of righteousnes by fayth 103. Question I woulde therefore thou shouldest shewe vnto mee particularly the causes the partes and the effectes of Baptisme Answeare The efficient cause is Christ The outward visible matter is water with the sacramental rites the inwarde inuisible matter is Christe himselfe with his gifts The outward forme is the maner of administration it selfe ordeined of Christ himselfe the inwarde forme the baptisme of the holy Ghost the essencial parts are the signes the things signified The whole partes is the Element Christ himself with his gifts the action and the worde 104. Question But what is this worde Answeare Teach yee al baptising them in the name of the father the Sonne the holy Ghost Mat. 28. 19. Preach the Gospel to euery creature he that shall beleeue and be baptized shal be saued Mark 16. 15. 16. 105. Question What meaneth in the name Answeare Hereby is declared that Baptisme is a solemne vowe whereby hee that is baptized doeth wholly vowe himselfe too one GOD in Trinity also a solemne action in which GOD witnesseth that he receiueth him that is baptised intoo his owne hande that in very deede this same fourme is as it were an Epicomie or Summarie of the whole Christian faith with the solempne sealing thereof 106. Question And yet notwithstanding it semeth that the Apostles changed somwhat in that same forme as beyng sayd to haue baptized in the name of Christ Answeare By these woordes it is not shewed after what maner the Apostles baptized For who can probably thinke that the Apostles in that expresse prescription of our Maister in euident and plaine woordes commaunded did chaunge any thing at all And it is most plaine throughout the whole Ecclesiasticall Hystorie that that forme was alwaies kept 107. Question But to what end is that same into the name of Christ Answeare To witte that the ende it selfe the fruites it selfe and to bee short the very matter it selfe of Baptisme might be declared Question But what are the endes of Baptisme Answeare This shall very well be vnderstoode by the effectes Question And what are the effectes of Baptisme Answeare If thou call Baptisme that onely which the Minister doeth the effect of Baptisme is nothing Question This seemeth a harde saying to me Answeare And yet so Paule speaketh when he sayeth that hee which planteth and hee 1. Cor. 3. 7. which watereth are nothing But the case standeth thus In very deede the ministery of men is somewhat yea indeede it is that very thing that whosoeuer despiseth despiseth GOD himselfe But as I haue sayd before so God Luke 10. 16. vseth the ministerye of men that the whole woorking power resteth in God himselfe neyther doth the same here fal out as in them whom God vseth to the maintenance of this mortal life of men For fathers in begetting of children are suche instrumentes of GOD that the engendering power of the bodye and the receauing power of powring in lyfe is engraffed in Fathers and Mothers and the same GOD hath geuen his power both to meates for nourishment and too medicines for curing of diseases But in those which concerne the Saluation of men lost in themselues hee so vseth theyr woorke whom hee appoynteth too the woorde of saluation and too the administration of the Sacramentes that besides the declaration of his will from whome they are sent they bring to passe nothing at all Therefore the effect of the minister is this that pouring forth water he wetteth him that is to be baptised but now the only effect of water poured foorth whether it bee common water or sacramentall appointed to an holy vse if it be simply considered in it selfe is that his bodie who is sprinkled with it be made wet and washed But he which baptiseth inwardly by the spirite that is to say by his diuine power dooth alone perfourme farre other thinges to witte altogether diuine and heauenly thinges notwithstanding the ministery of men come betweene to witte the forgiuenesse of sinnes by free vndeserued imputation and regeneration which is the effect of the holy Ghost dwelling in vs and by little and little abolishing sinne in vs. 108. Question Doest thou therefore distinguish betweene sinne and sinnes Answeare Yea what else For the Apostle is woont to call that naturall corruption of the whole man sinne or else the flesh set agaynst the spirite Iohn 3. 6. and oftentymes in other places which also by it selfe is sinne when it dissenteth from the Lawe of God and inforceth to sinne whervpon it is called sinne sinning Rom. 7. 13. Now all the transgressions of the commaundementes of GOD are called sinnes that is to say those which sinne bringeth foorth in vs euen as a husband begetteth children by his wife Rom. 7. 5. 109. Question What therefore doest thou call remission of sinnes Answeare That same great benifite whereby it is brought to passe that the satisfaction and obedience of Christ being imputed vnto vs those transgressions are not only layd too our charge but also in their place the fulfilling of the Law perfourmed by Christ is set and appointed 110. Question But what callest thou regeneration Answeare Another gift of the same Christ whereby it is brought too passe that that corruption both in respect of the guiltinesse of it and in respect of it selfe onely is not imputed vnto vs but also is corrected by litle and little in vs. 111. Question But doeth that same power of the spirit by little and little abolishing the old man in vs and creating the newe begin euen from the very first moment of Baptisme Answeare Fye vpon this errour also of the worke wrought The fruite of Baptisme therefore beginneth in that moment or time wherein fayth beginneth which in very deede sometime goeth before Baptisme as appeared in Cornelius Act. 10. 47. But sōtime foloweth Baptisme as in children that are baptised sometime slowlyer and sometimes later as they grow and waxe and and are of the number of the elect Finally the fruite of Baptisme is not to be restrayned to that same moment
beleeue nothing lesse no not by theyr owne Canons otherwise not very pure 139. Question Yea but they haue the laying on of hands or ordination which they say we lacke Answeare But howe often is it that the Canons doe forbid that he shoulde bee esteemed lawfully ordeyned who is not lawfully elected Nowe the way of lawfull election is too bee sought of vs out of the Apostle especially so farre foorth as belongeth to the examination of doctrine and manners Therefore they wante the foundation of lawfull ordination and therefore they boast in vaine of the laying on of handes which notwithstanding it shall not bee harde for vs to shewe to haue more purely then they haue it as perhaps I wil shewe in another place more fully 140. Question Threfore what thinkest thou of Baptisme ministred of priuate persons or by such as execute not the ministerie of the woord Answeare I would esteeme it no more then that which some priuate man should do according to his owne will in the name of the king or of the common wealth or as a faigned seale deuised of some priuate man according to the apishe immutation of the publike seale and so set to some instrument or as a fable Question Thou wouldest then much lesse allowe baptisme ministred in sporte or of Midwiues Answeare Out vpon that grosse and filthie prophanation of the holy ministerie 141. Question But what if necessitie doe vrge it Answeare I haue already aunsweared that the beginning of our saluation is deriued from the tables of the couenaunt it self and not from the seale set vntoo them which yet notwithstāding if any despise hee is woorthely depriued of the benefite of them but that he seemes not too haue contemned them whiche coulde not obtayne them keeping the righte order 142. Question But are not priuate persons and those which are not lawefully called to be thought in like place degree Which if it bee true certeynly the baptisme administred by popishe priestes must be in vayne and serue to no purpose Answeare Here I will not sticke too borrowe that from the Lawyers which maketh greatly to this purpose the fault is eyther in the person or in the thing or in both in the person as when the Magistrate is corruptly made who notwithstanding as Varro witnesseth in his fifth booke of the Latine tongue is no Magistrate But the Lawyers do more subtilly distinguish betweene him who is a Magistrate to wit a lawful one and him who is in the Magistracie as when they dispute that it is one thing too bee Proconsull and another thing too bee in the Proconsulshippe another thing to be Pretor then to excerise the Office of the Pretorship as is sayde of Barbarius Philippus another thing too bee Tutor then too exercise the office of Tutorshippe in so muche as that sometimes hee that is a Magistrate as for example if hee bee an outragious man may bee a Magistrate indeede but yet hee can not execute the Office of a Magistrate The faulte is in the act when it is not ordedered rightly that is to say when suche things are omitted which are of the nature of the act it selfe Nowe in the Papisticall Baptisme the faulte is not in the act in which that same principal forme is kept which other strange and superfluous thinges cannot hurte but the faulte is in the person for they are annexed to the Bishops too the Elders But this fault cannot hurte the action For that I may come more neere too our Diuines they that are not lawfully called vnto the ministery and yet notwithstanding sitte in the chayre of the Ministerie by the consent of some men although deceiued albeit in respecte of the Persons themselues they bee not true Pastoures yet notwithstanding they are to be accounted in another place thē they that haue neither lawfull nor vnlawfull calling So Caiphas indeede was not the lawfull high priest because he had by giuing of money entred into the high Priesthood yet notwithstāding sitting in the chaire of the highe Priesthood albeit vnawares he vttereth a Prophesie And before this Bishop sitting in his seate the Lord goeth to the temple and obserueth those diuine ceremonies that were not yet abolished So the Pharisies so farre foorth as they sate in Moyses chayre are commaunded too be heard which Chayre notwithstāding the most of them had gotten by ambition and euill meanes Finally so are those thinges holden for firme whiche some man accounted a Magistrate commandeth albeit hee were promoted thither by euill indeuours which it is certayne happened vnto one Barbarius Philippus a seruant and yet notwithstanding through error created Pretor of Rome To conclude a faulty vocatiō may hurt the cōscience of him who hath violently broken in vppon that office but it doeth not defile those thinges which are done of him as if he were lawfully called 143. Question But that same baptisme administred by Sacrifising Priestes is defiled with many spottes Answere Thou saiest very true But that same essentiall fourme of the Baptisme of Christe by the singular goodnesse of GOD hath remayned in it the trueth whereof cannot be hyndred by any added deuises 144. Question Should not Baptisme then be true baptisme vnlesse the pure woorde of the institution were vsed Answeare No verily it coulde not be For the forme geueth euery thing his essence or beyng Question But if the fault in the forme as thou sayest bee so greate that it defile the thing it selfe doeth not a fault in the very explication of baptisme it selfe doe yt muche more in which thou art not ignorant how greeuously the Papistes offende Answeare No not so For albeeit that the corruption of the doctrine bee greater and more grieuous before GOD then the corruption of the outward forme yet notwithstanding it doeth not so muche defile the action of baptisme it selfe because the faulte of doctrine sticketh too the teacher neyther doeth it hurte the truth of the Sacramēt otherwise rightly ministred but the faulte of the forme is in the thing it selfe and therfore may be such as for example if men offend in the Element it selfe or in the worde of institutiō or in some rite that is meerly that it defileth the action it selfe As for example sake if any should not baptise in the name of the Trinitie or shoulde name the sonne inequal or should baptise in the name of the Virgine Mary or in steed of water should vse specially wittingly and willingly I can not tell what other thing altogether contrary or els shoulde omyt sprinkeling or dypping certeinely this could not bee the Baptisme instituted of Christ But contrariwise if it might bee that euen Sathan him selfe should sit in the chayre of the ministry and shoulde minister the lawfull Baptisme of Christ it shoulde be the true Baptisme of Christ because it dependeth neither vpō the knowledge of the minister nor vpon his conscience 145. Question Doest thou therfore thinke that they doe well who renouncing Popery embracing true Christianitie
be limited and conteyned in a place is the essētial property of a body Therefore he that taketh away the limitation of place from the bodie of Christe hee abolisheth the very body it selfe The proposition needeth no proofe The assumption is playne by the definition of the bodie because it is sayd to be a diuisible quantitie according to a threefold measure length bredth and thicknes and whose partes are bounded with one common bounde that is to say the superficies Also from the diffinition of a place For a place is that through which a touch is made both of that which conceineth of that which is conteined 237. Question But I did thinke that a place was not the essence or substance of the bodie Answeare So the Sophisters trifle Neyther doe we say that a place is the matter of the bodie but placing as I may say necessarily and in it selfe is proper too bodies Neither doe we then consider the body as the matter but as the quantitie Therefore Augustine speaking very wel of the glorified bodie of Christ it selfe If it be a bodie sayth he then is it in a place And take away spaces from the bodyes and they shall bee no bodies But let vs proceede Hee taketh away the limitation of place which contendeth that one and the selfe same body can be euerie where and in manie places at once properly This euerie one doeth which teacheth eyther that this bread is proper by the bodie of our Lorde or in verie deed wil haue it to be present in with or vnder the breade and to be giuen too the outwarde senses in as many places as the Supper of the Lorde is celebrated Therefore c. I knowe that manie flee vnto the distinction of a bodie supernaturall certaine also vnto that common starting-hole of the omnipotencie of God But to what endeserues this For the natural generall and essentiall fourme by which euerie bodie is a bodie being taken away it shall follow that that body ceaseth to be a body from which that same essentiall fourme of a body is taken away they play the Sophisters which reason from the accidentall properties to the essential of which matter wee will speake in his place 238. Question Hast thou any other argument that thou canst alleadge Answeare Yea that I haue and that of great waight For the proper perpetual and necessary effect being taken away the antecedent also of the cause is taken away I say therfore out of Saint Iohns verse 51. Who so euer is a partaker of Christ hee is a partaker of euerlastyng lyfe But it is playne that many doe receyue the Elements of the Lords Supper to iudgement Therefore none of these are partakers of Christ him selfe But if properly and in very deede the bread were the body of Christ and that wyne the blood of Christe eyther by transubstantiation or by reall consubstantiation who so euer should receyue the Element shoulde receyue also properly and in very deede the thing it self Therefore c. Question Thou art not ignorant what is answeared vnto the proposition of this argument to wit that that saying of Iohn and such other like is to be vnderstoode of those that come vnto it rightly and worthily Answeare I knowe it and I trust I shall easily confute this as also that same threefolde or rather fourefold eating Question What therefore doest thou conclude of all these Answeare Surely that those propositions this is my body which is giuen for you and this is my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sinnes are necessarily to be interpreted figuratiuely to wit by a sacramentall metonimy and yet neyther for al that is any thing withdrawen from the trueth of the Sacrament or from the true participation of Christ himselfe 239. Question I would gladly also that that were declared vnto me at what time thou thinkest the supper of the Lord ought to be celebrated For wee heare that the Christians are laughed to skorne of the Iewes who suppe so earely yea and that against the manner of the most old and Apostolicall church of Christ it selfe Answeare Christ did celebrate these mysteries at night for twoo causes For hee woulde compare this newe Sacrament which he instituted with the figure answering vnto it Now the passeouer was slaine betwixt twoo euenings And furthemore it is playne that this was the manner of the ancient that they should sit downe once that is too say in the eueninges For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Latines I thinke called Prandium that is a dinner as if a man shoulde say the leauings of the former meales because that that very same day nothing in a manner was sodden but somewhat was taken of the remnantes of the former dayes meale in a maner they not sitting down neither was it of all nor of full prouision and iunquettes It is no meruayle therfore forasmuche as Christ differred these same mysteries as it were the sealing vp of his Testament into his last banquet that hee rather instituted this ryte in the Euening then in the Morning Nowe it ought not too seeme any wonder that the olde Churche whiles that those loue feastes by little and little were taken away that they did end their banquetes with the celebration of this Supper the which thing notwithstanding that it was not euery where kept it appeareth not onely by the last Apology of Iustine but also by other testimonies of the ancient fathers But it cannot be geathered of any cir cumstance of time out of the wordes of the institution that Christ commaunded any thing concerning the circumstance of time Therefore custome hath very wel preuayled that the Supper of the Lorde shoulde be celebrated rather in the morning meeting of those that are fasting then of those that haue dyned that they may come to the hearing of Gods word and to this same heauenly mystery which is to be executed with great attention and highe reuerence with the redier and better prepared myndes 240. Question But hath the Lord appoynted nothing concerning the place Answeare He appoynted the place to wit of the publike congregation of the Churche whenas he ordained it amongest his disciples neyther saide be Doe this euery one but doe yee this And Paule sayeth plainely When ye come together the which thing also the very name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 al the old Liturgies or formes of administring the Sacramentes doe shew also the very scope of these mysteries in whith our natural felowship consotiation in Christ is ratified doth require Nowe to appoint some certayne place with a kinde of religion as it was not lawfull in times past too celebrate the Passeouer other where then in that place the Lorde had chosen it were a Iewish superstition 241. Question What therefore doest thou thinke of the supper of the Lord administred in priuate houses Answeare I passe nothing at all of priuate houses if the church that is