Sweet It matters not You are no lawfull Interpreter of Scripture To which words as D. Featly was making a reply hee was recalled by the company to prosecute his main Argument Heer you may obserue by the way that M. Fisher saw well enough that M. Sweets instance of the thrice repeating the name Sanctus was very friuolous and impertinently brought to maintain their vain repeating the name Iesu so many score of times together in their Psalter and therfore hee let M. Sweet shift for himself and make good his instance if he were able for M. Fisher could not be ignorant that the Fathers generally obserue against the Arrians the mystery of the Trinity of Persons to be implied in the thrice repeating the word Sanctus If the Papists repeat the name Iesu to the like purpose as they must doo if they take that for their pattern will it not follow that forty times repeating the name Iesus implies that there are forty Persons in Iesu So well did M. Sweet keep his owne pretended law that none should speak any thing but to the purpose but because hee challenged to haue made such a law himself peradueÌ„ture he thought he might dispense with it 4. In the prosecution of the mayne Argument when Master Fisher being required to giue a direct and punctuall answer to some proposition in the Syllogisme digressed from the point and discoursed how an ignorant and vnlearned man might first come to the knowledge of the true Church and was checked by Doctor Featly saying This is not now to the purpose M. Chamberlane sitting by added The lesse to the purpose the better Would you haue Master Fisher speake to the purpose 5. In making way to the Induction when D. Featly was recalled by a new Answer of Master Fishers to some former Argument which Doctor Featly went about to refell the Earle of Warwick aduised him notwithstanding this interruption to proceed to his induction saying Master Fisher like a woman will haue the last word but it makes no matter let him answer what hee will wee presume his answers will bee but like his former 6. In propounding an Argument by an induction after this manner For the first age I alledge for Teachers of the Protestants Doctrine Christ his twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius for the secondage Iustine Martyr c. M. Fisher after hee had repeated the instance in the first age in these words In the first age you alledge Christ his twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius hee added Transeat name in the succeeding ages D. Featly You grant then Christ and his Apostles were Protestants M. Fisher. Will you slander me to my face What will you doâ— behinde my back D. Featly I slander you not The word transeat implies in my vnderstanding a concession if not then deny it and I will presently proue it But as for this word transeat though that wee made a transeat of it and let it passe in our relation yet his owne side haue taken speciall notice of it and indeed Master Fisher Lupum auribus tenet If by transeat he meant a concession or grant of the proposition wee desire no more of him if wee haue Christ and his Apostles on our side what neede wee more To auoyde this inconueâ—ience if hee interpret this transeat Let it passe as not worthy of his Answere or notice thus to slighten an Argument drawne from His authority whose words shall not passe though heauen and earth passe it cannot receiue a good construction But wee spare Master Fisher quia vapulat intus in poscenio because hee hath bin schooled at home Forsooth this Non bene crede mihi faciunt duo Sufficit vnus Surely many that hold Master Fisher to bee a great Gamaliel in the Romish Synagogue very much maruell that being so often prest and vrged yea and adiured also hee should yet still decline to make any Answer at all to the Opponents instance in Christ and his Apostles But the truth is he and his companions are of the bâ—ood of those whom Tertullian fitly tearmeth Lucifugas Scripturarum â—â—unners of the light Like Bats they keep a fluttering in the twi-light of supposed humane authorities and plausible glosses of reason but the broad day-light of Scripture they cannot endure Though in his Question he laid claime to all ages in which any Scholler according to common sense and naturall apprehension would vnderstand that hee meant Methodically to begin at the first age and thence prepetua serie to descend to the later as do the framers of their owne late extant Catalogues of Romane professors beginning with Christ Iesus Saint Peter Saint Paul Corinthians Ephesians Thessalonians c. ordine naturae et temporum yet hee preposterously would haue the Opponents begin first with the last age and so ascend vpwards Omnia naturae contraria legibus ibunt that so hee might the better lurke in the darke and muddy age next before Luther Which the Opponent iustly suspecting resolued to hold to the high way and fayre tracke of naturall method intending thereby to draw him into the cleare streame of Antiquity beginning at the fountaine in the first age But this Master Fisher would by no meanes indure hoping that hee might lye hid tanquam Sepia in atramento suo like the Scuttle-fish in her owne inke in those darke ages next or neere before Luther whereas being beaten vp into the cleerer streame of the first ages hee would easily bee discerned and soone caught 7. At the breaking vp of the Conference when Master Fisher desired to haue in his owne custody the common Schedule in which the principall Arguments and Answers of the Disputants were written by the common Notarie chosen by both parties and subscribed by their owne hands Doctor Featly withstood this motion saying Master Fisher you are not a fit man to bee trusted with this Authenticall writing for in a former conference betweene me and Master Musket whose Assistant you then were you tooke vpon you without any commission froÌ„ me or consent the office of a Notarie to take my Answeres and being vpon occasion pressed by the company to read what you had written after some tergiuersations you read it and thereupon were checked by the whole company for setting that downe for my Answeres which was neuer spoken by mee nor any thing like vnto it and that I charge you truly with this vndue dealing I appeale to some heer present viz. Doctor Goad and Master Wats who were present at that conference Heer Doctor Goad and Master Wats affirmed to Master Fishers face that vpon their knowledge Master Fisher was conuicted of vntrue setting downe Doctor Featlyes Answers in that conference and that vpon such conuiction Master Fisher was forced to correct what hee had formerly set downe Heerto Master Fisher much moued at such imputation answered M. Fisher. I call God to witnesse that if I did set downe any thing otherwise then the truth waâ— I did it not wittingly nor
willingly Whereunto Doctor Goad replied D. Goad Whether you did it wittingly or willingly bee it betweene God and your conscience sure wee are that what you wrote down vntruly was aduantageous to your owne side and therefore wee had iust cause to suspect that you did it wittingly and willingly An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in a Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net VVHereas the Relation of that which passed in the Conference touching the Visibility of the Church Iune 27. 1623. is in the whole course of it truely and indifferently deliuered and rather moderately and fauourably carried in regard of the Aduersary respondent Master Fisher whose part in respect of his delayes and euasions was not altogether so tolerably acted as in the sayd briefe Relation it is represented wee hold it needlesse to giue thereunto any other generall Attestation especially considering that the principall Heads thereof are extant vnder the hands of both parties and the chief substance and current thereof for ought wee finde is not reiected by the Aduersarie Yet because a Counter-relator calling himselfe A. C. hath of late put forth in print an answer to the sayd Relation and therin not content to slighten and doubt of some passages hath by expresse deniall excepted against diuers other particulars so charging the Protestant Relator with crimen falsi wee who were present at the said Conference and attentiue vnto it could not in equity and conscience bee wanting to the support of truth by our ioynt Testimony heere following 1. The Counter-relator auoucheth that There viz. in the beginning and not in the end of the Disputation Doctor Featly did say I wish I warne I command I coniure you c. Heerein wee finde a double falsification The first by deniall of that which to our perfect remembrance was by D. Featly spoken to Master Fisher in the end of the disputation when Master Fisher hauing bin often vrged to answer the Instance in Christ and his Apostles in the first Age yet peremptorily refused Whereupon Doctor Featly with a lowd and earnest voice said vnto him I charge and adiure you as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the day of Iudgement answer now vpon your conscience Whether you beleeue that Christ his Apostles taught our faith or yours The second falshood is by adding and peruerting that which was said in the beginning of the disputation by D. Featly without any mention of the day of Iudgement or coniuring much lesse commanding which had bin vnciuill All that hee then said to such purpose was this I desire you Master Fisher to answer in this disputation to my Arguments directly and sincerely as in the sight of God Which condition Master Fisher did then accept and required the like dealing from Doctor Featly 2. In the same page is added a second Lawe as enacted by Master Sweet that Nothing should bee spoken or heard but to the purpose Which rule though requirable seasonable in all Disputes or Tractates yet was not mentioned by Master Sweet nor prescribed by any other in this Conference The second then-mentioned Rule was as is set downe in the first Printed Relation that None should speake but the Disputants Vpon which diuers of the Protestant side both Diuines and others did forbeare to interpose by way of Argument 3. This Coâ—nter-relator is so bold as flatly to deny that which vpon our certaine knowledge wee testify Namely that to the points of Popery instanced by Doctor Featly as nouelties Master Sweet interrupting him before hee had recited all of them answered These are scholasticall points not fundamentall And secondly that heereupon Doctor White forthwith replyed with this Argument These points are defined in your Councell of Trent therefore they are to you fundamentall adding also expresly this Syllogisme Whatsoeuer denied makes a man an Heretick is fundamentall But the deniall of any of these makes a man an Heretick with you Ergo euery one of these is to you fundamental To which Syllogisme beeing aloud and distinctly vttered by D. White nothing at all was answered 4. With the same boldnes in the same page it is denied that D. Featly vsed these words Name but one Father one Writer of note who held the Particulars there named being points of Popery for fiue hundred yeers after Christ. Which words were vttered by him distinctly and audibly and as it seemed to vs out of certaine Notes in a paper which he then had before him 5. Item howsoeuer M. Fisher might as it seemeth he now interpreteth himselfe mean quoad nos when he said that A demonstration à posteriori is better than à priori yet in the disputation he spake those words absolutely and without limitation For which words so absolutely deliuered M. Fisher being then taxed by M. Ailesbury as defectiue in Academicall learning M. Boulton a Romanist with indignation replied vpon M. Ailesbury in this manner Think you your self better learned than M. Fisher Whereto the other presently made Answer I thought you wiser than to ask me such a Question 6. Item though they in generall tearms deny D. White to haue spoken in the manner set down or to haue vsed any such long discourse yet wee very well remember that D. White did then vpbraid the said Iesuites with those their apparent tergiuersations and hindring the Opponent from proceeding in his Arguments thereupon also requiring M. Fisher according to the order set down and assented vnto by themselues at length to oppose the prefixed time for D. Featlie's opposing beeing passed And then D. White naming his owne propositions mentioned in the Relation offered forthwith to Answer vpon the same directly without any delayes or tergiuersations 7. To M. Fishers protestation that he did not wittingly nor willingly write amisse in a former Conference betweene M. Musket and D. Featly the Popish Relator saith that nothing was replyed and thereupon inferreth that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fishers sincerity in his relation and writing of the former Disputation But wee perfectly remember that thereunto D. Goad presently replied in this manner M. Fisher Whether you did it wittingly and willingly be it betweene God and your conscience I am sure you erred on that part which was aduantageous for your owne side Vpon which Reply no further Answer beeing giuen we were and are so farre from beeing satisfied of this Iesuites sincerity that wee rather suspect him the more In this sort when the Company was willing to depart D. Featly beeing called vpon as it seemed by some of his companions to goe away did arise and offer to bee gone Yet in his rising hee turned to M. Fisher saying Will you dispute of Christ and his Apostles or not To which M. Fisher sayd I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand took D. Featly by the arme offering to stay him yet he in this abrupt manner went away Thus the Iesuites Relator This passage being
renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder and deformation Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery as of Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences c. for such professed opposing could not bee imagined before such errors were in beeing But as the Fathers before the Councell of Nice did not in words define 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely that is of a like substance nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indeed or maintainers of the right beliefe touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants who holding nothing against the protestant faith deliuer some doctrines and positions from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God or no. Of the tearme Visible A Church may be said to be visible two manner of waies either Visible to the whole world and that eminently and in some sort pompously as the Roman Empire kingdom of Naples or respublica Venetorum in which sense the Papists affirm that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible but wee denie it Or visible to all the members of that Church either such as God hath already called or such as he will call in time who by searching and due inquirie may and shall finde out the true Church their mother In this question we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages in the first acception but in the later onely wee maintaine a visible but not a conspicuous eminent and glorious face of a Church in all Ages consisting of an apparant Hierarchy as the Papists teach I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church The first assertion The Church in the most strict and proper acception thereof is the whole company of Gods elect Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes describeth her The generall assembly and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel There is one Church of the elect both going before and following after And againe vpon the Canticles Christ according to the grace of his foreknowledge hath built a holy Church of Saints which shall eternally perseuer in grace And Saint Bernard This is the Church of the Elect. Of this Church Saint Austen speaketh most expresly He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world yet poore Iohn Hus as H. C. a zealous Papist rightly obserueth was burnt by the decree of the Councell of Constance for saying no more in this point then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him viz. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate and of them onely But the best is as our Humfrey speaketh pertinently Combustus est non confutatus Hussius Iohn Hus was indeed burned but hee was neuer confuted His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond neuer to bee razed out for it is Gods truth The foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale The Lord knoweth them that are his And so I fall into my second assertion The second assertion The Church in this acception as it consisteth of the elect onely is knowne to God onely and consequently is inuisible This the Apostle teacheth The Lord knoweth them that are his And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words I will giue him a white stone and in it a new name written which no man knoweth sauing hee that receiueth it For what man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is in him The heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things who can knowe it I the Lord search the heart I try the reines This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God to sound the bottome of mans heart the faithfull acknowledge in their deuâ—utest prayers as Salomon Thou euen thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men And Ieremie Thou that triest the Righteous and seest the reines and the heart And the eleuen Apostles Thou Lord which knowest the harts of all men Now if God onely knowe the heart he onely knowes who beleeue in him and loue him in sincerity of heart Therefore let none saith Saint Cyprian arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely to weet in the floore of the Church to take the fanne and seuer the chaffe from the wheat The elect are the first borne whose names are written in heauen Heb. 12. 23. Now what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen Saint Prosper forbeares it defining that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those who are predestinated to eternall life Whence we may rightly conclude that the Pope in canonizing Saints and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem incurres into a praâ—unire by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour from vessels of dishonour that is the elect from the reprobate But our aduersaries obiect If wee restraine the Church to the elect and pronounce them inuisible we make a Platonicall Idea or an aerâ—all body or mathematicall abstract of the Church Heereunto we answer first out of Saint Prosper Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum tam impium est negare quà am ipsi gratiae contraire It is as impious to deny that the number of the elect is certaine with God as to deny grace it selfe And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea which is most certaine in the knowledge of God Secondly we teach not that the Church in this notion is an Idea extra rem or singularia or a body houering in the aire or floting in the fansie we teach that it truly subsisteth partly in heauen in the triumphant and partly on earth in the militant part therof This militant part though in respect of the whol number inward
heer tels vs of a Decree made at Geneua you knowe not when and a tale of a Minister you knowe not who and for proof are alleaged Iohannes Cretensis and Gulielmus Nullatenensis or if you will Episcopus Chalcedonensis both these if I may take your word for I hold neither of them worth looking into relate the Stories aboue-mentioned and that agreeable to their names and titles fide Graeca A pretty Pageant A Iesuite cites a Iesuite against Geneua and a Romish Priest a new no-Bishop of Chalcedon against an English Minister Aruspex Aruspicem one Gypsie quotes another for the truth of his Art Simia giues his word for Pseudolus Belial cites Belzebub the god of Flies for a Flie-blown scoffing Iergon at Geneua There was a decree made defining it to be lawfull to lie for the credit and honor of the Gospell Where was this Decree or Canon made In the Senate or in the Consistory By the Syndicks or by the Presbyterie When was it made What date beares it Who drew it Who engrossed it Vpon what occasion was it made Who subscribed to it I cry you mercy now I remember when it was made it was made the very yeer in which Beza recanted his Religion and immediately thereupon all Geneua reconciled it selfe to the Pope And at that time the Pope's Holiness to assure the Geneuians of his vnfained loue and friendship to their city sent them a Copie of the great Charter of Constantines donation and in the back-side of it this decree was written at the beginning of the Iulian period an 764. ante orbem conditum Yea but some Papists will say If this Decree were so ridiculous a forgery Father Eudaemon Iohannes would neuer haue reported it as he doth in sober sadnes Heerunto I answer first out of Saint Paul that the Cretians are not alwaies the honestest men and Father Eudaemon doth not deny nor belie his Country Secondly I answer out of the Acts of our Courts and the Proceedings against Garnet that this Eudaemon who takes vpon him to justifie that Powder-traitor against most vncontrouleable Euidence and the publick justice of a whole Kingdome is none of the honestest among the Cretians This is that monstrum hominis monstrum nominis Andraeas Iohannes sidâ—nius Cretensis This is the Canonizer of Garnet and his straw Father Garnet forsooth at his execution si credere fas est let fall some drops of bloud vpon a straw which miraculously fashioned themselues into the shape and Visage of that Powder-martyr which is as true and altogether as likely as that the Atomi or motes such as wee now see in the Sun by a casuall concourse made the whole world according to the faith of the antient Epicures But the best jest was that as Garnets tongue doubled and equiuocated whil'st he was aliue so his face equiuocated and doubled after his death As in Plautus his Amphitrio Socis begat another Socia and Blepharo another Blepharo and the Goblet another Goblet so like that they could not be distinguished in like manner face begets face and miracle begets miracle and straw begets straw representing Garnet's feature so like that without miracle they could not bee distinguished Thoughts are free My conceit is that Father Eudaemon reading Saint Gregorie's Exposition on those words of Iob Boues arabant asini pascebant iuxta the oxen plowed and the asses fed by them and learning that by oxen were allegorically meant the Clergie and by asses the Laity thought he might well defend this strawn miracle because straw is fit fodder for asses For which his Apologie of Garnet and his straw as also his witty inuention of a Decree published at Geneua for the lawfulnes of a Lie tending to the honour and credit of the Gospell hee meriteth to haue the first syllable of his name to bee cut off As Ieconias is called by the Prophet Conias so Eudaemon should bee called from henceforth Daemon Iohannes And for the Bishop of Chalcedon I wish him no other punishment for his slander of the English Minister but to be sent to reside on his Diocesse And so I leaue them and come to you M. Fisher. Master FISHER'S Preface I for my part will not promise to haue perfectly remembred and set downe euery word that passed in this Conference especially spoke by by-standers nor to haue strictly obserued the precise order of euerie passage but for the substance and truth of the matter that I doe relate I assure that there shall not bee found any falsehood vnlesse it be in some of those parcels which I doe not relate of my selfe but out of the Protestant Relator whose relation ordinarily as I doe not contradict vnlesse it bee vpon necessarie occasions so I doe not intend to approue But simply relating what it saith I will leaue is to others to iudge what they thinke fit of it Onely this I will say that euerie one may beleeue it so farre as it relateth any thing which may aduantage the Catholique Defendants and their cause or disaduanlage the Protestant Disputants and their cause for it is certaine that no man wil lie for the aduantage of his aduersary or his cause nor his owne disaduantage But in such things as it hath set downe aduantageously for the Protestant Disputant or his cause there is iust reason to suspect it inregard that I am told that Doctor Featly himselfe who is said to bee the Author hath confessed that more is said in the relation then was said in the conference it selfe and I am sure something is left out which was said and something mis-reported This being premised by way of preface I will begin to discourse of the matter it selfe Answer In this part of your Preface you arrogate truth to your owne relation and derogate from the Protestants to driue forward your owne Barke fraught with vntruthes you fill your sailes with the breath of your owne praises assuring vs that for the substance and truth of the matter that you relate there shall not bee found any falsehood How will you assure this when so many persons of qualitie present at the conference and attentiue to it in diuers particulars testifie the contrarie vnder their hands You are one of the principall Gamesters Master Fisher and your credit if not your Religion lies at stake Bee not your owne iudge but let the standers by determine whether you or the Protestant Relator hath plaied faire and aboue boord For omissions in regard whereof you taxe the Protestant relation they were in your fauour and not to your preiudice But because you could not see when you were well and complaine without a cause they are now supplied make your best of them For additions or mis-reports to the preiudice of any the witnesses expresly cleere the Protestant Relatour from any such imputation and if I should fasten any such vpon him as you couertly would insinuate essem similis vestri id est mendax If I were the author of that
as will appeare to any who will compare my Reply with your Answer which I here transcribe verbatiâ— â—hongh not alwaies following you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because you often double and more often start aside requiring of you the like And I begin with your Title An Answer to a Pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his owne net In which by the way is shewed that The Protestant Church was not so visible in all Ages as the true Church ought to bee and consequently is not the true Church of which men may learne infallible faith necessarie to saluation by A. C. DIgnuÌ„ patellâ operculuÌ„ such a cup such a Couer such ware such inscriptioÌ„ on the outside of the box such as the Inne is such is the signe such as the Clocke is such is the Index or Finger of the Diall A crackt Cup and a false Couer naughtie ware and as bad an inscription a cheating Inne and a lewd Signe an vncertain Clock a lying Index a book full of falshood fraud neuer a true word in the title for neither is it an answer to the Phamphlet so intituled but a Cauill at some passages therein neither in this Answer as hee tearmeth it is shewed that The Protestant Church is not the true visible Church but rather the contrarie as shall appeare by discussing it neither was it penned by A. C. but by Master Fisher who before was caught in his owne net and now dâ—nceth in a net vnder the name of A. C. thinking that no man seeth him yet your Net is not so close but that I plainly see you thorow it and I gesse at the reason why you shrowd your selfe vnder the Characters of A. C. There are many passages in this Answer in which Master Fishers ingenuity and sincerity and modestie are set vpon the Last These commendations of Master Fisher would haue lost all their grace in his own mouth as a Turkeys doth the luster on the finger of a dead man but it becomes A. C. well enough to blazon the Armes of Master Fisher. Moreouer by thus borrowing the letters of your friends name you play fast and loose If any man like your Answer then it is yours but if hee dislike it then it is A. C as Tully being girded at by Laterensis for a common Iester answereth Quod quisque dicit id â—e dixisse dicunt ego autem si quid est quod mihi 〈◊〉 esse videatur et homine ingenuâ— dignum atquâ— doctâ— non aspernor stomachor verò cùm aâ—â—rum non me digna in me conseruntur Other mens jests are fathered vpon mee and if they bee wittie jests and haue salt in them I am content to father them but if dry and vnsauorie I will not owne them In like manner in your booke Si quid tamen aptius exit QuanquaÌ„ haec rara auis est siquid tâ—men aptius exit If there be any thing sharply spoken to good purpose M. Fisher will challenge that to himself but if any thing bee spoken impertinently and flatly as indeed the greater part of your Musick goes vpon flats then A. C. must beare it out Howsoeuer in my judgement M. Fisher you had better haue taken off your mask and dealt openâ—y for by this concealing your true name you giue your selfe a blow and your cause a wound Were not you a Nominall in the Conference Did not you stand wholly in a manner vpon Names and will not you now set your owne name to your owne Work A man would think that you who are stored with so many Names might haue bestowed at least one of your old cast Names at full length on your Title-page and not put your Reader to spell A. C. who I can assure you spells them vnhappily One spelleth thus An Answer written by A. C. that is A Counterfeit another A. C. A Cauiller a third An Answer written by A. C. that is by A Cox- c quod dicere nolo but I spare you and leaue your Title and come to your Preface Master FISHER'S Preface GEntle Reader although I doubt not but all that bee wise and iudicious especially if they duely consider the occasion state of the question lately treated in a Conference betwixt Doctor White and Doctor Featly Ministers and Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites will easily discerne euen by that false relation which is set out in print by a Protestant that the Protestants cause hath not gained any thing Doctor FEATLY'S Answer AS our Blessed Sauiour spake to the High-priests seruant saying If I haue done euill beare witnesse of the euill if well why smitest thou me In like manner the Protestant Relator may checke you If hee haue done you any wrong in the relation or set downe any thing vntruely conuince him of it if not why doe you smite him with your tongue and pen It is your owne Maxime that No man will lie for the aduantage of his Aduersarie or for his owne disaduantage but you here say that The Protestant cause hath gained nothing by the relation Therefore it should seeme by your owne argument to bee a sincere and not malicious relation Howsoeuer if the Protestant cause hath gained nothing by it your cause hath lost nothing by it and if so why do you so maligne and persecute euen vnto banishment an innocent Relation Why do you forbid your Romish Catholiques to reade it Why apply you so many salues both in writing and in print if there be no sore What the Protestant cause gained by the Conference it selfe or the relation thereof malo in aliorum opinione relinquere quà m in oratione mea ponere it is fitter for me to heare then speak I am sure Doctor White and my selfe haue gained much ease by it for before the Conference wee could neuer bee quiet for your challenges but since wee haue neuer been troubled with you It seemes you had enough of that short Encounter But you will say No blowe was struck home no arrow was drawne vp to the head no argument prosecuted to the full at that Meeting How then could the Protestant Cause gaine any thing by it By your miserable euasions and manifest flight and tergiuersation you who were ante pugnam auidus tumidus were in pugnâ pauidus timidus like Captaine Iohn mentioned by Sinesius who in the maine fight fled amaine digging his horse-sides letting loose the Reanes laying on amaine with a switch c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It will be said If you fled in such manner why did not I follow after you Because in your flight you brake the bridge by refusing to answer Christ and his Apostles Scripturis non loquentibus quis loquetur Where Christ and his Apostles cannot be heard the holy Father was resolued neuer to speake I account it no foile to my cause to bee non-futed in that Court where Christ and his Apostles are excepted against Where the Charters of our saluation
are not pleadable giue mee leaue M. Fisher to speake to you Iesuites in the words of Athanasius If you are the Disciples of the Scriptures and Christs scholars walke with vs by them if you wil talk extrauagantly and diuersly from the Scriptures why do you contend with vs who dare not to speak or heare any thing without them or different from them our Lord saying If you abide in my sayings you shall bee my Disciples Master FISHER'S Preface Neuerthelesse because those who bee partially affected or of meane capacity may as it is to be doubted diuers doe conceiue speak amisse of this matter to the disgrace of the Catholique cause and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules I have thought is meet to set out a true relation of the occasion progresse and issue of this Conference and this in such sort as diuers falshoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued and the weaknesse of the Protestant cause may be euidently discouered which is also so bad as it seemeth it cannot bee supported but by setting out such lying relations The Answer Nescio quo pacto vox tua facta mea est You haue said that which I should haue said When Saint Hierom iustly taxed Sabinian a Deacon for deflouring a Nun Sabinian reflects vpon Saint Hierom and laies foule aspersions of lewdnes vpon him but the difference was that which S. Hierom charged Sabinian with which was per veram convictionem by true conuiction but that which Sabinian charged Saint Hierom with was per falsam confictionem by false conifiction or forged calumniation Thus the case stands betweene the Protestant Relatour and you Master Fisher. Hee laies crimen falsi to your charge per veram conuictionem by true conuiction hee proues falshood by you by vnanswerable arguments drawne from euident circumstances and your owne confession and multitude of witnesses beyond all exception see the Attestation Whereas you obiect falshood to him it is per falsam confictionem you falsly impose falshood vpon him you say that there is falsehood in his relation but you proue no such thing Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heere cannot carry it first because the particulars you deny neerly touch your credit and reputation therefore it stands you vpon to deny them Negas haec facta turpis enim et periculosa est confessio you deny matters of fact alleadged against you in the Conference because you cannot with safety or credit confesse them Besides this legall exception against your witnesse in your owne case you are a Frier and therefore according to the ancient English Prouerb a L. with a rime to it Thirdly you are a Iesuite and therefore vnlesse you will swarue from the rule of the prime men Ring-leaders of your society you maintain the wholsome and profitable vse of an equiuocating Lie What doo I or any man knowe whether when you speak of diuerse false-hoods of the Protestant Relator you reserue not in your minde Fained by me or deuised by me to saue my credit and promote the Catholique Cause But let vs see how you turn the Lie vpon vs. Master FISHER'S Preface The sight and consideration whereof maketh wee more easily beleeue that to bee true which I haue read viz. that A Decree was made by Diuines in Geneua defining it lawfull to lie for the honour or credit of the Gospell and that conformably to this Decree an English Minister being told that one of his Puâ—-fellows had made Lies in stead of Proofs of his Protestant Religion did answer saying Hee cannot lie too much in this cause it must needs be a weak and bad cause that needeth to be supported by such weak and bad shifts Answer I assent to your conclusion It must needs bee a false religion that is supported with such lies as you haue now heer giuen vs a brace True Religion neither is supported by lies nor any way supports lies Let vs see then whether your faith or ours leanes on these base and beggerly crooches Certainely neither Iacobus de Voragine nor Surius nor Copgraue nor Turseline nor any other Author of your golden Legends seruing to support your doctrines of Transubstantiation Inuocation of Saints Worship of Images and Reliques Purgatory and Pilgrimages c. can be proued to be a Protestant He that wrote Beza's Recantation and another who since set forth the late Lord Bishop of Londons Legacie was farre from a Protestant Name me any Protestant who euer defended pias fraudes or euer propugned this Tenet Fides non est seruanda Haereticis Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks The Fathers of the Councell of Constance who contrary to the faith and safe conduct giuen by the Emperour Sigismund burnt Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague neuer learned from the Schoole of Geneua or the English Pue you speak of to break faith for the maintenance of the Romish-Catholique faith and the destruction of the opposers thereof The first that brake the Oath of Alleageance in heauen was the Diuell and by it becam a Diuell and the first that brake promise on the earth was likewise the Diuell Gen. 3. whose scholars they shew themselues who teach that Promises euen confirmed by oathes the strongest sinewes which hold all humane society together may be either cut asunder by Papall Dispensation or cunningly vntied by Iesuiticall Equiuocation Pray tell me in good earnest Sprang the doctrine of Equiuocation whereby you defend that a man may affirm nay sweare an vntruth in words and make it vp by a mentall reseruation from vs or from you I cannot finde either Nanarrus or Gregory de Valentia or Southwell or Tolet or Parsons among the Catalogue of Protestant Writers These vpholders of Equiuocation and many other whose names deserue to be buried in euerlasting obliuion with the ancient Pâ—iscilianists whose old damnable doctrine touching the lawfull vse of lying they refine with a new Burnish to make it more saleable neuer took a Copie of the supposed Decree of Geneua nor gathered Notes from the English Reader you speak of No Protestants are so ambitious as to steale from your Garlands the fairest Flowres wherewith you adorne your heads and pens If any such Flowres growe in our Gardens either they die of themselues or are carefully weeded out I appeal to all the Confessions Catechisms Expositions on the Commandements Systems of Diuinity Common-places seuerall Tractates wherein either directly and professedly or occasionally they fall on the Subject wee are now about whether they condemn not all lying and false-hood open or couered with mentall reseruation or without to the deep pit of hell from whence they came From which pit Iacobus de Voragine may very well be thought to take his name for raking hell for so many lying miracles and fables wherewith hee hath stuffed the liues of Saints And now hauing laid the Dog at your doore let vs see how you beat him from you to ours Your wisdome and graue fatherhood