which gave them forth and to him whom they testify of to wit Christ by whom they are to be fulfilled unto the true believer that reads them in a right mind and Spirit Secondly But where having Life in them Viz. in the Scriptures is laid down as following believing This is an error depending upon the former and a contradiction to the Scripture that saith That believing ye might have Life through his name he doth not say in the Scriptures nor by searching them but through his name of whom they testify and those to whom these things were written that they might beleive that Jesus is the Christ c. and have Life through his name They were in some measure prepared by the Spirit or Light of Christ allready manifested to receive those things which tendâ—d to the furtherance of their Faith and confirmation of their Belief concerning Christ that they might have life through his name Pr Whoso holdeth this denieth them really and interpretatively Answ. Is this thy proof of thy false accusation against us of denying the Scriptures that we deny them interpretatively so then our denying the Priests Interpretations upon Scripture which are not Scripture must be deemed a denial of Scriptures as if they were either the same or of equall authority with Scripture or when they tell us of finding Life in the Scriptures we must take it for granâ—ed that they mean in their Interpretations upon them whereby in many things they contradict plain Scripture as hath been proved any times so however when they bid People search the Scriptures for Life Eternal in them they intend they should take their meanings along with them and believe as they say and so people must run into an implicite Faith if they take things on their Authority and Credit for by their meanings and Interpretations they can sit as Judges over Scriptures and tell people they must give the sence and reconcile them and over the Ligâ—t and Spirit within and tell them its but an Enthusiastick Fancy but who are not so Ignâ—ble as to receive a Belief or Faith from them on such a dark implicite and slender account as this of Priests But wait in the Light of Christ within for a right understanding of things that are Spiritual relating to Faith and Salvation Such find they have cause from the certain demonstration and testimony of the Spirit of Truth within to believe Christs Light and Spirit rather then the Priests meanings and private Interpretations wrestings and perverting of Scriptures Priest It is not about the expression of the Word of God that debate should be kept up if in a sound sence granted that they are called the Words of God Answ. So Then the Scriptures are granted to be words of God why then holdst thou debate against us but to shew thy cavilling Spirit For the Word was that from whence words and Scriptures procâ—eded and came to the Prophets and Messengers of God before they spoke the words to Write them Priest Ye deny that Faith cometh by hearing of the Scriptures which is the Word of God for that we receiving them by Faith are saved which is plainly asserted Joh. 5.39 Answ. We deny that Faith comes barely by hearing the Scriptures for if it did so come then all that hear or read Scriptures must have Faith and hear the Word but we see the contrary and Christ told the Jewes they could not understand what he said because they could not hear his words and yet they could hear Scriptures and him speak outwardly to them But this is a mistery hid from such as thou art and there were those whom the Word Preached did not profit bâ—cause it was not mixt with Faith in them Priest Your selves acknowledg that they are the words of God then this or that perticular saying is the Word of God seeing there is a singular where there is a plural Answ. But Singular and Plural differs and though there be a Singular included where there is a Plural is it therefore good Logick to say that Singular includes Plural or they are both one Or to saâ— that because there are Words of God in the Scriptures and where there are words in the Plural there must needs be a word in the Singular therefore these words are the Word and so are the Scriptures Is this thy Lâ—arning and Logick Surely thou art so far from knowing the Word which lives for ever and was before either the Scriptures or words in it were given out that thou art yet as one senceless and confounded in thy expressions and cavilling against â—ruth Priest The Scriptures in the Bible are called the Word of God Mark 7.13 Answ. This is a very general expression of the Scriptures in the Bible being the Word of God when they do not say so of themselves whereas all the Scriptures in the Bible are so far from terming themselves the Word of God in such an eminent expression that they cannot all be truely termed his Words there being in many places Recorded both words of Wicked men and Devils though the Historical part that relates these things be true as to the narration of them And they Mark 7.13 that made the word of God of none effect by their Tradition and rejected his Commandment did really act contrary to the Word within which Moses preached and against the Law of God without so that 's no proof of the Scriptures in the Bible being called the Word Priest That which maketh wise to Salvation or maketh the man of God perfect c. is inspired of God that is the Word of God which maketh wise profiteth 2 Tim. 3.15 Answ. Here again hast thou fallen short of proof of thy matter for where it is said All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God c. Is is added So it 's All Scripture given by inspiration But if that must be called the Word of God in thy sence then it may be read All the Word of God is given by Inspiration of God How will that sound and signify Or All the Word of God given by inspiration of God c. See thy ignorance and impertinency for though we grant that all Scripture given by Divine Inspiration is profitable to the man of God for the making Wise to Salvation but it is through Faith which words through Faith I find theâ— to have taken little notice of if any or of his being the man of God first that knows the profit of the Scriptures which are given by Inspiration that he may be Perfect which the Priests deny in denying Perfection and that he may be thorowly furnished And many things were written and directed to the Saints and not to the world c. But what thou concludest from hence doth not follow Priest Is there any Prophesie almost or Book of the Scripture but it calleth the things contained in them the Word of God Thus saith the Lord c. Answ. For as was hinted there are many things written in the Scripture
the Name of the Lord largely demonstrate it against you Pr. The Scripture is Everlasting Viz. what is contained in them Answ. Confusion Are they both one This is like much more Pr. Is not the Gospel written by the Prophets the Scriptures written by them Aâ—sw Thâ—n Marks Writing was not the beginning of it here 's contradiction and error again the Apostle calls them the Scriptures of the Prophets but speaks of the Gospel Revelation and Mistery before see Rom. 16.25 26. where its very plain he makes a distinction between them and the Scripture Pr. I deny any immediate Teaching by God Answ. Then thou deniest God to Teach his people himself when he dwells in them wherein thou hast denied the truth of the Gospel and New Covenant Pr. Christs Immediate Teaching will no way follow for his opening the understanding to know the Scriptures for he doth by the same supernatural influence shine on the understanding and Scriptures Luk. 24.32 Answ. Doth Christ by a Supernatural Influence shine on the understanding and yet deniest thou his immediate Teaching What a Labyrinth of Confusion and Distraction art thou fallen into And it appears without this Supernatural Influence shining on the understanding the Scriptures are not truely known nor opened Pr. That Christ was first known himself or he gave the knowledg of the Scriptures The Apostle Paul Rom. 16 26. denies your consequence Answ. Have any a Supernatural knowledg or faith of the Scriptures who have not a knowledg of Christ It seemes thou hast forgotten thy former words and the Apostle doth not deny my consequence for he had a knowledg of Christ before he Preached him or writ Epistles concerning him and his knowledg of the Son of God was by his Revlation in him besides the very Order Tenour and Matter of the Apostles words cited by thee makes for me against thy self see Rom. 16.25 26. for they run thus Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the Revelation of the mistery which was kept secret since the world began But now is made manifest and by the Scriptures of the Prophets according to the commandment of the everlasting God made known to all nations for the obedience of faith c. this thou mayest peruse again to thy owne contradiction Pr. The Cause indeed must be before the Effect and yet not allwayes in order of time but of nature c. If there be a Pryority or Posteriority of Christ in the Soul certainly the Scriptures hath it in the order of nature though the Lord in the communicating the knowledg of them he is in his being first because the Cause must be before the Effect so the giver of knowledg before the knowledge given Answ. This being rightly considered we find both contradiction and Ignorance in them for Is the Cause before the Effect allwayâ—s in order of nature not of time and yet have the Scriptures the priority in the order of Nature Where learnedest thou this distinction not from the Scriptures nor from Christ Surely Christ hath the Priority in order of time for he is in his being first and if the Cause must be before the Effect alwayes in order of nature then he hath it in both for he was the cause both of Scripture and communicating the knowledg thereof as thou confessest as also that the Cause must be before the Effect so the giver of knowledg before the knowledg given And indeed He was before all things and by him all things consists and in all things he is to have the preheminence and priority Who is the First and the Last the Foundation the Beginning and the End But thy saying if there be a Priority or Posteriority of Christ in the soul certainly the Scriptures hath it in the order of nature in this thou comest off but very saintly and dubiously and bringest the controversy to no result nor clearness but art confused for if there be a Priority of Christ in the â—oul then it is not of the Scriptures it bâ—ing a Priority of Christ who also doth by a Supernatural Influence shine on the understanding c. But in these matters much might be said which time would fail thorowly to treat of Pr. The Juditious will think you a pittifull object who expose your self to shame and ludibrie c. Answ. Thy censure anâ— scorn herein I vallue not it will fall upon thy own head and theirs that have taken thy part herein Pr. Without the Sanctifying knowledge of Christ one may understand the Scriptures without error and â—angling Answ. This is both erronious and contradicts much that thou hast said before and after which I need not very often repeat Pr. Most men have both preached the Truths in the Scriptures and maintained them by Writing who never had any Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ. Answ. This is like the former and that most men have preachâ—d Truths in Scriptures is too large a word and contrary to what thou saidst before of other Nations but what do these things tend to but to set up unsanctified persons to be Preachers or Priests But too many there are of such already for of them and their pollutions many are grown sick and the earth will vomit them out and all that seek to maintain them against Christ and his Kingdom which he is setting up Pr. For Judas he preached the Truths c. The Scribes and Pharisees that sat in Moses seat preached Truths whereas Christ bad hear them Mat. 23.2 3 4. Answ. But doth this prove that Judas had no sanctifying knowledg of Christ Herein hast thou erred for Judas had part of the Ministery from which by transgression he fell Act. 1.17 25. So transgression was the caâ—â—e of his fall from the Ministery and that Scipture Mat. 23.2 3 4. proves not that Christ bad them hear the Scribes and Pharisees nor that they were true Ministers of Christ though wherein they sat in Moses seat and read or preached his Precepts when in force they were to be obeyed but Christ reprehends them in many places for corruptions got in amongst them contrary to the Law and for their vain Traditions and Precâ—pts of men and therein they were not true Ministers of the Law much less of Christ. Pr. Some preached Châ—ist out of envy and strife and not out of love c. yet preached Christ and the Scriptures without errors Phi. 1.15 16 17. Shall we say they had the Sanctifying Knowledg of Christ who had not love to him who hath not good will to him Answ. Thou hast not proved that they preached Christ and the Scriptures without Errors who were in Envy and Strife for they were guilty of Error in the ground Viz. Envy and Stâ—ife and where that is ther 's confusion and every evil work in that Christ was preached and his Name published in those dayes the Apostles rejoyced but not in the Envy and Error of such as preached him out
then what were their Epistles Prâ—achings Testimonies c. which proceeded from or were effects of their knowledge they had of God Were they sinful If not the cause and ground thereof could not be sinful therefore away with such sinful stuff and false conclusions upon the Apostles as thou hast uttered For the Wisdom which is from above is pure but yours is from beneath which is corrupt and sinful Priest It s false absurdity put upon our Doctrine that we by it strengthen the hands of wickedness For Answ. Your bad fruits and those that follow you who have learned from your corrupt Doctrines to plead and contend for Sin both from the Pulpits to the Alehouses Taverns and Play-houses do manifest you guilty herein and we not to have wronged you in saying you have strengthened the hands of wickedness by your sinful Doctrine and many of you by your corrupt Lives also Priest For we teach that believers should be dayly by the strength of the Spirit fighting against the flesh Answ. That 's but a cover what incouragment give you them to fight against it when you deny they shall ever over-come and be freed here Priest Paul and Barnabas sinned either both or one of them in that sharp contention Answ. Not all their Life time that contention held not so long as thy and your pleading for sin Priest Who strengtheneth then the hands of wickedness Whether you who teach a believer may not onely Sin but fall away from Truth Grace c. Or we who teach that we do sin but that we cannot thereby fall wholly from Faith from Grace from God c. Answ. Not we but you We exhort to diligence and watchfulness to keep the Faith to make their Calling and Election sure that they may never fall as the Apostles did and warn such as are not come to that growth least they fall and draw back to perdition which tends to beget into more fear watchfulness and circumspection and not into a false security ease and liberty as your Doctrine doth which is for Sin term of Life and yet tell people they shall not therâ—by fall away from Grace c. Priest Dare any of you say there is never any vain thoughts c. in Prayer or anger against those that injure you If you dare say so your Light within is but meer darkness c. Answ. The Controversy is not about our attainment and for us to affirm what we have in that case would not decide it but we do affirm that state is attainable through Faith in the power of God which purifies the heart and our Light is not darkness and the thoughts of the just are right and you that are in your vain thoughts and having anger when you Pray How do you fullfil Gods Command and the Apostles Doctrine To hold up holy hands without wrath and doubting Do not you offer up a Cains sacrifice herein And is not your Light or that which you put for Light darkness Priest There is need even for a David to say cleanse me from my secret sins Answ. Not all his Life time for then he received not an answer to his â—rayer but hâ— testifies otherwise That God heard his Prayer and granted his requests and câ—mmended the state of the undefiled in the way who do no iniquity c. but to argue that because he prayed to be cleansed from his secret sins and therefore was not clean so long as he lived is all one to say therefore God heard him not which is gross and absurd Priest The Commands of God are of use to a believer that cannot fulfil them in his Graces namely to convince him of sin that he may be driven to lay hold on Christ for imputed Righteousness for further supply of his Grace c. Answ. The intent of Gods Commands were that they might be obeyed and fulfillâ—d through that grace and ability God gives for that end and not to be broken and transgressed for unbeleivers yea the world many times are convinced of Sin by the Spirit so thou hast grosly wronged the beleivers in representing their state here but as a convinced state which many who are unconverted are come to whereas they to whom God imputeth Righteousness and not Sin their Sin is covered and in their Spirits is no guiâ—e Psal. 32.1 2. see thy error and confusion Priest For Perfect Righteousness Inherent there is no promises to this sence in all the Scriptures to any beleiver Answ. The work of God and his Righteousness or Image which man was made in is Perfect and this Christ comes to restore into again and God hath promised and made known him for this end And I will wash them from all their filthiness saith the Lord c. The word Inherent is not mine but obtruded upon me from a false intent Priest There are promises of a growth unto Believers and of a fullness but this is to be meant of such as is consistent with some defects and a body of Sin Answ. A growth and a fullness and yet denies Peâ—fection and so the Apostles Doctrine Eph. 4. A gâ—owth and a fullness consistent with a body of Sin Is this the Principle and Faith of the Kirk of Scotland Surely here 's darknâ—ss to be felt Who can raise an absurdiy and confusion from this grosser then it self Doâ—h not this growth and fullness consist by Christ and in him If so By whom consists Sin and its body Do they consist together Or is not the body of Sin put off where the Circumcision of Christ is experienced Priest Zecharias his walking in all the Commands and Ordinances of God blameless This Perfection was consisting with misbelief Luke 1.6 20. Answ. A gross errour again his blamelesness was in his walking in all the Commands of God but his mis-belief was after and was reproved or blamed by the Angel for he was smitten for it But thy Doctrine tells us quite contrary as much as mis-belief is blameless because blamlesness consists with it as thou implyest But this is like much more Priest David Job Daniel their failings are noted which I might cite if I did not study brevity Answ. So are their deliverances noted and if thou wert not partial and of a wrong Spirit thou wouldest note them How hast thou studied brevity to stuff up near 10 sheets of paper with quarrelling and cavilling against us in reply to so little as was writ to thee Priest How shall they believe without a Preacher Gods ordinary appointed Way for begeting Faith is by Preaching and not by immediate teaching alone without Preaching Answ. Gods appointed Way for begeting Faith is the Word of Faith whcih is nigh in the heart which the Apostles Preached and the inward teaching of the Spirit without which there is no true and effectual Preaching which directs and brings to the Word Christ the Word is the Author of Faith whom God hath appointed for Salvation and he teaches both immediatly and instrumentally both inwardly and
That good that I would do I do not if he had spoken to their capacity as weak he would have told them he had been under such a condition but he was delivered from it When Paul speaks of a condition wherein he was he does not say I am c. Ans. Paul did speak unto the Romans after the manner of men because of the infirmity of their flesh Rom. 6. He did also signify the several states which he had passed thorow as how it was with him before the Law came and how when it came and his warfare as also his deliverance so that I say again and still affirm that Paul could not be in all those states he mentions or represents to the Romans at one and the same time when he so writ as in the present time as thou very blindly hast asserted argued from hence and caviled against the truth of what I said and the most stress of what thou sayest for reason or proof against me is as much as a Child might say that has learned his Accidence Viz. that the present Tense is not the preterperfect Tense whereas if it must be taken for granted from thy feeble reason that Paul was in all those states at one and the same time then he was both carnal sold under sin and yet spiritual a faithful Apostle that could preach in the fullness of the Gospel as if carnal sold under sin and spiritual made free from the Law of sin and death by the Law of the Spirit of Life were both one but to be carnal sold under sin was miserable bondage not consistent with his Saintship and Spirituallity And when he said With me to will is present but how to perform that which is good I know not if that was his present condition then as thou arguest because spoke as in the present Tense Then what did Paul at that time in writing that Epistle Did he perform that which is good yea or nay If he did Then knew he what he did Or did he do he knew not what in it Surely thy Doctrine doth strangly misrepresent and wrong Paul that Servant of Christ and the Lords-Freeman who knew the Mysteries of Christ though sometimes he became as weak to the weak c. But if it should be objected as some vainly have done that there was an unregenerate part in Paul of which he speaks in those cases then this would make much of his Epistles to proced from an unregenerate or carnal part which were gross and contrary to their own Doctrine And to that saying if he had spoke to them as weak he would have told them he had bin under such a state but he was delivered from it to the very same purpose he did speak to them Rom. 7.5 For when we were in the flesh the motions of the sins which were by the Law did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter So that its plain he told them both of his captivity and of his deliverance speaking in the fore-part of the chapter plainly in several things with relation to what he was in the flesh in the time past and also how he was delivered and so both the body of sin and death and the law of sin he came to be delivered from by the law of the spirit of life in Christ through whom also he was more then a Conqueror Pr. How bold are you charging the present time for the by-past for which you have neither passage in that nor any other Scriptures the sence of the words being all along in the present time c. Answ. This is but like the former from ignorance both of the Scriptures and the Apostles states concluding them in all those staâ—es wherein they personated themselves either to represent what they had gone thorow or the condition of others to whom they wrot or spoke but from this mans Argument where Paul said Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chiefest and the Apostle James with the same tongue bless we God curse we men these things ought not to be this being spoken in the present time when they writ from this mans Argument Paul was then the chiefest or greatest of sinners How was he then counted faithful and put into the Ministery Or was he the greatest or chiefest of sinners when faithful Then who are the least of sinners if the faithful such as are saved by Christ be the chief And was the Apostle James one that did curse men when he exhorted against it or what he said had relation to them or some of them to whom he writ And Pauls being the chiefest of sinners to his being injurious and a persecutor before converted or if the chiefest of sinners after conversion and counted faithful What was he before conversion Or if it was before Then did he not amend and become better when he came to be converted to receive Grace and Apostleship Pr. As for that by gone state before he was begotten Was he groaning under a body of death Was he giving thanks for victory through Jesus Christ Yet all these are knit together Secondly If ye say it was a state after he was begotten of God ye grant all that we affirm that a Believer ever after he is begotten of God is not free from Sin Answ. This still depends on thy former errors and absurdities against Paul for groaning under a body of death for deliverance or victory and giving thanks for victory through Jesus Christ are two differing states and not knit together as if they were one and the same condition How blindly and sottishly hast thou reasoned herein Secondly If we say it was a state after he was begotten Viz. that he was groaning for deliverance we do not grant therefore that a Believer ever after is not free from Sin as falsly and absurdly thou infeâ—rest upon us as if a Believer had no growth nor encrease in faith and victory after begotten of God which if it be thy belief according as thy words imply it is not ours for we know and believe a growing from strength to strength and a revelation of Gods Righteousness from Faith to Faith in the true Beleivers and that by Faith victory is obtained by degrees with such as are begotten and born of God whom the wicked one cannot touch and through Faith in the Power of God Everlasting Salvation comes to be attained to by them such as keep the Faith and hold fast the profession of it without wavering Pr. They do not so perfectly mortify as that there are no lusts in them otherwise it were to no purpose for Peter to exhort the believing Hebrews to abstain from their lusts Answ. Nay Herein thou hast erred and perverted and wronged Peters end and intention which is clearly against such as thou art
Sins neither was he so passionate in that kind as to plâ—ad and contend for Sin as you do More-over where it s said that Paul and Barnabas said unto them that would have done sacrifice to them We are men of like passions with you Act. 14. they could not intend by passions that they were men of like Sins and Transgressions with those heathens as being such Idolaters or subject to cry up and worship men as Gods or to sacrifice unto them as they did to Paul and Barnabas whom they termed Mercurius and Jupiter so in this thy error is sufficiently detected who upon such a false ground rathâ—r then be silent hast plâ—aded for the work of the Devil Pr. Here is another Arminian and Popish error that Believers fall away from Grace totally An. Thou mightest as well have charged the Apostles with an Arminian and Popish error who held the same that we 〈◊〉 touching falling away from Grace which many have been 〈…〉 though not all Believers and therefore both Peter and Paul and others did warn them in their Epistles to the same purpose as we do and both Paul to the Corinthians and Peter in his second Epistle Chap. 2. as also that Epistle to the Hebrews do largely prove our Doctrine in this matter Pr. Evil Works come not from Faith in the Believer An. If evil Works come not from Faith then Peter and David stood not in the Faith whâ—n they fell and this proves what I said of them which thou hast reviled me for Pr. Christ said to Peter when thou art converted where you say that Peter was never converted before his repentance but onely convinced which contradicts that you said he erred from the Faith It s against Christs prayer saying I have prayed for thee that thy faith may not fail if he had not Faith when Christ spake these words to him When thou art converted strengthen thy Brethren onely do signify when he should be fully recovered An. Here thou fightest with thy own shadow for it doth not follow that Peter had no Faith when he was convinced before fully converted and the words When thou art converted strengthen thy Brethren are Christs own words to Peter about which thou hast thus wrangled against me which plain enough imply that there was somthing which was not of Faith that Peter was to be converted from and Faith is given in measure in the convincâ—ment in order to a through conversion as also thou grants that these words When thou art converted do signify when he should be fully recovered from the sad breach his fall made on his Soul what a full recovery and yet the Devils work remaining all his time what confusion's this And is the full recovery called conversion as thou sayst Then you that contend for sins remaining all your Life time remain all your time in the unconverted state and that the Desciples had som Faith bâ—fore they weâ—e thus fully converted is the thing which I have confessed which still makes for what I say that there is a possibility of falling from the Faith before this work of conversion is fully wrought and therefore the more need of being watchful and exercising that little Faith recieved so that I do not maintain Satans work or say that he overthrew Peters Faith â—s falsly I am accused Pr. It is not sad Doctrine as you say but comfortable that a Believer may fall as David and Peter whereas he doth not fall wholly away An. Is this Doctrine counted Authentick or Orthodox in the Kirk of Scotland that it is not sad Doctrine but comfortable that a Believer may fall as David and Peter did And do you propose this to your Auditors as matter of comfort Surely if you do you are misserable comforters for to be comforted with telling them they may fall as David and Peter did is to be comforted with denying Christ and commiting adultery as it may be probable too to many of your Kirk take comfort in such things which whilst they do your Stool of Repentance will not obsolve them nor prove them to be in the Faith how-be-it a few lineâ— before in contradiction to thy self thou confessest that Peters fall did weaken his Graces and cloud his comforts very much and surely it was matter of Sorrow and bitter Lamentation to him as also was Davids fall to him for which he suffered the Terrors of the Lord and great Sorrow and Tribulation as at large in his complaints and prayers may be proved Pr. What a brave Patron of your Cause are you when in defence of this that a Believer may not Sin ye say he may fall wholly away from Grace An. Here thou hast grosly perverted and wronged my words for that some Believers may fall is not my defence to prove that they may be fully restored and perfected so as not to sin but that there is a state in which t is possible for some to fall away from Gâ—ace whâ—ch is before they come to that perfection and safety that answers the end of their Faith and Praying c. This cuts off much of thy cavilling frothy false accusation Pr. Ye ask if I can instance in Peter or David any thing Viz. Sin before their death which they were not freed from before their decease Answ. Though I could not instance gross falls of such a foul nature yet they have their failings Esiah an old Prophet subject to like passions that we are Peter walked not with a streight foot David saith if thou enter into Judgement c. An. Here thou hast gone about to accuse David and Elias and Peter with failings till their death but in proving thy charge comâ—s very faintly off for that of passions is answered before and what thou sayest of Peters not walking with a streight foot Was that till death Or did he so walk all his Life time Surely thou hast herein greatly wronged Peter and the rest of them and though there be a time and a state wherein if God enter into Judgment who can be justified yet there is a state wherein his people are Redeemed through Judgment and purged by the spirit of judgement and burning Pr. You maintain that a Believer from the first Sinneth not An. Thy accusing of me with maintaining that a Believer is freed from all Sin from the first time he is a Believer is a falshood and an abuse put upon me for he is a Believer before he obtain victory and is taught to believe in the Light that he may be a Child of the Light and so become born of God Pr. You do symbolize with the Papists saying Believers are freed from all Sin which yet they do not hold of all Believers but of some of their Perfectionaries Ye say ye do not hold Merit or Purgatory An. Nay Thou hast symbolized with the Papists who hast pleaded for sin till death and said also that perfect holiness both of Soul and Body is not to be till the Resurrection when that shall be
thou knowest not which as before was answered thee makes for their imagination of a Purgatory but if the Papists hold that some Believers are free from all Sin and perfected in this Life therein they outstrip thee and the Priests who would exclude all Believers from perfection and freedom in this Life Pr. Ye say that all men have a like Light and Grace some do attain to salvation others not which proceedeth not from any difference of Grace given by God but that others have better improven the Light given to all which improvement must indeed come from free will Ye hold Merit You are not so ingenious as Papists An. Concerning Grace being given alike to all if thou intendest in measure or quantity thou hast vainly made repetitions without ground against us but as for the improvement of the Grace it comes not from free will as falsly thou hast said but from the capacity the creature is put into by the Grace it self for mans will is not made free of it selfe but by the Grace or Power of God which worketh in man to will and to do But and if somes not attaining of salvation is because it s either from a difference of the Grace given by God or for want of sufficient Grace given by him according to thy Doctrine then this charges the fault upon God as being partial and the occasion of some mens destruction contrary to that saying of the Prophet He willeth not the death of a sinner but rather his return c. Pr. That the Light that Christ enlighteneth all men with is sufficient for the knowledg of the mysteries of the Kingdom is contrary to Scriptures An. Nay It is not contraâ—y to the Scriptures that the Light of Christ in men is sufficient for the knowledg of mysteries of the Kingdom savingly in that t is sufficient for believing leading out of darkness and to receive the Light of Life And they from whom God hath hid those mysteries are such as disobey the Light and shut their eyes against it as Christ said Their eyes have they closed c. least they should see and be converted and I should heal them All which doth evidence the defect and fault not to be in the Light of Christ but in them that disobey it Pr. The natural man cannot know the things that are of God he hath no sufficient Light to know that which he cannot know An. That therefore he hath no sufficient Light is no true consequence for then by this none have Light sufficient whilst in the natural state which all are in before they are made spiritual thy consequence had onely held to prove the Light insufficient if thou couldest have proved that they that are in the fallen and natural state cannot be changed nor restored into a spiritual state but this were gross to affirm for as man is natural he cannot know the things of the Spirit buâ— the spiritual man doth Pr. The Jewes that had the outward meanes shut their eyes against it neither doth it mean of the Light of Christ within except onely the Light of nature An. The Jews had not onely an outward meanes but also an inward Light the good Spirit of God given to them though they Rebelled and the Word nigh them in their heaâ—ts c. which was not a Light of nature Herein thou hast greatly erred And would Christ have reproved any for shutting their eyes against that which is natural and insufficient and made that the cause of their not being converted and healed See Mat. 13 15. Thine and the Priests darkness and ignorance in this matter How great is it Pr. The Kingdom of God being Righteousness Peace Joy in the Holy Ghost no man that hath not the Sanctifying Spirit hath it or had it within him no peace nor joy in the wicked An. The Kingdom of heaven was in the Pharisees or Jews as Christ said The kingdom of heaven is within you Luk. 17.21 when they were unsanctifyed though they were not come into it nor to attain to the righteousness and peace of it for that 's attained to by such as are translated out of darkness into the Light for all that have a true Light and Seed in them are not in it Pr. The Light of the Scriptures is a Light shining in a dark place 2 Pet. 1. An. The Light that Peter directed them to was the more sure Word of prophecy 2 Pet. 1. And was that the Scriptures of the Prophets Or did that Light come from them or from Christ If so then Why were they not directed to the Scriptures of the Apostles Or Were the Scriptures of the Prophets more sure then the Apostles writings Surely the Light which leads to the day star arising in the heart thou art exceeding ignorant of and thy darkness may be felt Pr. How gross Pelagionisme is that the same Light which was Sanctifying to others that obeyed was Condemning to Judas and Cain Is Gods revealing of those things and hiding of them the same Sanctifying Light and Illumination An. God who reveals those things to the obedient that he hides from the disobedient this plainly contradicts thee and thy former words for God is still the same Light and it is the Spirit of Truth that Sanctifyes and Justifyes the Righteous or Obedient that reproves the world of sin c. And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men love darkness rather then light c. Joh. 3. So in this matter thou hast shewed thy self ignorant of the Scriptures Pr. Where there are many Words of God being taken together they are called the Word of God An. Thou mightest as well say that many words and one word are both one Where provest thou thy assertion For in contradiction to this presently after the Scriptures call Christ the Word of God in some places and sure the Scriptures and Christ are distinguished they are not Christ. Pr. K. 8.46 That there is no man liveth and sinneth not It doth not say there is no man liveth and hath not sinned An. He that abideth in Christ the second Covenant sinneth not but is redeemed out of that state in which there is no man that sinneth not and John said If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar c. 1 Joh. 1.10 Pr. Their begetting is in order of nature before their faith An. Wheâ—e provest that Is begetting in the unbelief then and not in the Faith whereas the Word which begetteth is the Word of Faith and profits not where t is not mixed with Faith within Pr. Those of your way have held out to the world that to have Hebrew Greek and Latine is a mark of Antichrist An. Thou hast often wronged those of our way as thou hast in this wherein thou art answered at first Pr. Those who tell us of a faith in Christ without the Scriptures have no Light in them Secondly There are many things which we think and desire against the Law