A GODLY TREATISE containing and deciding certaine questions mooued of late in London and other places touching the Ministerie Sacraments and Church Whereunto one Proposition more is added After the ende of this Booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against And a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. PENRIES last Treatise Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie Ephes 4. verse 15. Let vs follow the trueth in loue and in all things grow vp into him which is the head that is Christ c. Imprinted at London by G. B. Deputie to Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie 1588. ¶ To the Reader TWo sortes of Recusantes are in this land the one Popish the other Anabaptisticall They giue out that wee haue no ministery no Sacraments no visible Church These men labour of two diseases the one is great pride the other grosse ignorance Their pride appeares in their behauiour which is voide of humilitie their ignorance in their Arguments which hang together like a sicke mans dreame That her Maiestie may and ought to compell these Recusants to frequent our Church assemblies I make no question There is an other sorte which either deny or doubt whether vnpreaching ministers doe deliuer a Sacrament vpon better aduise some of them confesse that ignorant ministers doe administer a Sacrament but they adde this that such as receiue any Sacrament at their hands doe sinne grossely and pollute thēselues I will hope well of these men for they erre onely for want of iudgement The holy Sacrament is one thing the ministers ignorance is an other thing the Lordes Sacrament brings singuler comfort to the worthie receiuer the ministers ignorance can neither peruert the Sacrament nor pollute the receiuer The Donatistes taught otherwise in the former time and the Anabaptistes in our time but they are notably confuted by two famous men Augustine and Caluine What account I make of ignorant ministers appeareth in this treatise It pleased God to direct my heart and penne in this holy labour therefore I assure my selfe of his gracious blessing London Maij. 6. 1588. R. S. A Table of such points as are conteiin this Treatise 1 A Godly Prince may and ought to compell his subiects if any refuse to the externall Seruice of God 2 A godly Prince may not suffer any Religion but the true Religion either publiquely or priuately in his Dominions 3 Able teachers ought to be prouided so much as can be for the Churches 4 The teachers of religion must haue maintenance 5 Almightie God blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote and embrace his Religion 6 The childe of God is not polluted though hee be present at and partaker of the publique Prayers Sacraments c. at such time as wicked men are present at and partakers of them 7 They which were baptized in the Popish Church by Popish Priestes receiued true Baptisme touching the substance of Baptisme 8 They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of Englande by vnpreaching Ministers 9 The godly are not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister 10 The Church of England is the visible Church of Christ 1. A GODLY PRINCE may and ought to compell his Subiects if any refuse to the externall Seruice of God IT is the Princes duetie to prouide able men to teache the Lordes Religion in his dominions So did Iosaphat the king of Iuda 2. Chro. 17. and Artaxerxes the king of Persia Ezra 7. therefore it is the Princes duetie to prouide that his Subiects doe heare and learne the Lords religion Teachers and learners are relatiues Great outrages were committed against both the tables of the commandements as appeareth in the booke of Iudges for euery man did that whih was good in his owne eyes Iudg. 17. 19. cha The reason of these absurdities is set out liuely and often in these words There was no king in Israel Iudg. 17.18 19. Chap. by which words it is manifest that if a religious Prince had bene in place Idolatrie and wicked behauiour had bene suppressed and the Israelites pressed to serue the Lorde That Princes doe not passe their bounds in this it is cleare by that which Augustine reporteth of and commendeth in the King of Babylon Contra Cresc gram lib. 3. cap. 51. The Prince is bound to sanctifie the Sabboth so are his subiects the Lords commaundement is flat for this Remember the Sabboth day to keepe it holy Sixe dayes shalt thou labour and do all thy worke But the seuenth day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God in it thou shalt not do any worke thou nor thy sonne nor thy daughter thy man seruant nor thy mayd nor thy beast nor thy stranger that is within thy gates c. Exo. 20. If none are exempted by almightie God none can be dispensed with by man for all are charged to present themselues in the holy assemblies And least any either prince or subiect should forget this duetie the Lord himselfe is their remembrancer in these wordes Remember that thou sanctifie the Sabboth c. that is the sanctification of my Sabboth is a matter very important it concerneth my honour but thy comfort therfore remember and forget it not If any refuse they may and ought to bee compelled for the breach of the Sabboth is a hainous sinne Iere. 17. Nehem. 13. Faith commeth by hearing of the word Rom. 10. therefore refusall to heare hinders both the beginning and growth of faith The Samaritanes heard Philippe in Samaria they beleeued Actes 8. Lydia heard Paul at Philippos she beleeued Act. 16. Augustine was a Manichee nine yeeres he heard Ambrose the Bishop of Mediolanum and was conuerted August confess lib. 4. cap. 1. and lib. 5. cap. 13. and 14. If any shal aske me why all that heare beleeue not I answere Arcana Deisunt adoranda non scrutanda That is Gods secrets are not to be searched but adored and that vnlesse Gods spirit touch the heart as the worde doeth pearce the eare Gods holy Trueth is a dead letter vnto vs. Asa Iosias were famous kings of Iuda Asa commāded Iuda to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and to do according to the law and cōmandement 2. Chron. 14. Iosias compelled his subiects to serue the Lord their God 2. Chron. 34. So did Manasses after his conuersion 2. Chron. 33. If it were lawfull for these Kings of Iuda to cōmaund and compell their subiects it is not vnlawfull for ours to do the like If it be not lawfull to compell recusants why are Asa Iosias Manasses commended by the holy Ghost for this excellent course Ezra was a learned Scribe he was authorized by the King of Persia to teache them beyonde the riuer Euphrates the Lavve of God vvhich did not knowe it and to punish such as refused to learne Artaxerxes vvarrant is set dovvne in this sort And thou Ezra after
people nation and language which spake any blasphemie against the God of Sidrach Misach and Abednago should be drawen in pieces and their houses made a Iakes c. Dan. 3. Constantinus the Emperour did not suffer I dolatrie in any part of his dominions Euseb lib. 4. de vita Const. The Emperours Theodosius and Gratianus did not suffer Arianisme c. Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 12. and 4. Edward the sixth a Prince of famous memorie was dealt with by his honourable counsailours that the Lady Mary which succeeded in the kingdome might haue popish masse c. Arguments were vsed to induce his Maiestie to like of that course His answere and resolution was negatiue So doth master Foxe report in the Actes and monuments in these wordes In the dayes of King Edward the sixth Carolus the Emperour made request to the sayde King and his Counsell to permit Lady Mary who after succeeded in the crowne to haue Masse in her house without preiudice of the Law And the Counsel on a time sitting vpon matters of policie hauing that in question sent Cranmer then Archbishop of Canterburie and Ridley then Bishop of London to intreate the king for the same who comming to his Grace alledged their reasons and perswasions for the accomplishing thereof So the King hearing what they could say replied his answere againe out of the scriptures so groundedly grauely and fully that they were enforced to giue place to his replication and grant the same to be true Then they after long debating in this maner with his Maiestie laboured politikely in an other sort and alledged what dangers the denying thereof might bring to his grace what breach of amitie of the Emperours part what troubles what vnkindnesse and what occasions sundry wayes it woulde enforce c. Vnto whome the king answered willing them to content themselues for he would he saide spende his life and all he had rather then to agree and graunt to that hee knewe certainely to bee against the trueth The which when the Bishops heard notwithstanding they vrged him still to graunt and would by no meanes haue his nay Then the good king seeing their importunate suite that needes they woulde haue his Maiestie to consent thereto in the ende his tender heart bursting out in bitter weeping and sobbing desired them to be content Whereat the Bishoppes themselues seeing the kings zeale and constancie wept as fast as he and so tooke their leaue of his grace and comming from him the Archbishoppe tooke master Cheeke his Schoolemaster by the hand and sayde Ah master Cheeke you may be glad all the dayes of your life that you haue such a scholler for he hath more diuinitie in his litle finger then all we haue in all our bodies c. Thus farre master Foxe 3. ABLE TEACHERS OVGHT to be prouided so much as can be for the Churches GOds people are the Lordes sheepe spouse citie therefore they must be fedde garnished watched ouer with the Lords foode furniture weapons This cannot bee done without able teachers The worke of the ministerie is a famous worke Ephe. 4. It passeth Moses Tabernacle and Salomons Temple therefore it is to be committed to skilfull and faithfull men by it Dagon Diana are cast downe and the Lords Arke and religion are set vp by it ignorance darkenes are remoued and knowledge and light are planted by it many wandring sheepe are brought to the Lords folde and many sheaues of corne into the Lords barne This appeapeared notably in Samaria Ephesus Corinth c. The Ambassadors of earthly Princes either are or should be men of choise otherwise they dishonour their Princes and become ridiculous therefore the ministers which are the Ambassadors of the highest prince Mal. 2.2 Cor. 5. must haue some mettall in them If they haue not howe either can or shall they deliuer the Lords commission A learned teacher is a singular blessing for hee feedeth Gods people with knowledge and vnderstanding Iere. 3. Such were Ezra amongst the Israelites Epaphroditus at Philippos Epaphras at Colossos Apollos at Corinth such are many thanks be to God in this land therefore an ignorant minister is a grieuous plague for he cannot strengthē the weake heale the sicke binde together the broken Ezech. 34. The Popish and Anabaptisticall sort haue done great hurt in this land This is as cleare as the sunne the way to heale this sore is to prouide such as by souereigne plaisters and medicine out of the Lords Eden may remoue this dangerous infection and plant in the peoples hearts the Lords holy religion Where teaching is not the people are in a woful case Solomon saith Where prophecie that is the expounding of Gods word is not the people perish Prouerb 29. Almightie God saith My people perish for want of knowledge Hos 4. Our sauiour Christ saith This is life eternall that they might knowe thee the onely true God and Iesus Christ whom thou hast sent Ioh. 17. Where sound teachers are placed these commodities are apparant First Almightie God is notablie serued Secondly the prince is duetifully obeyed Thirdly the enemie to religiō is either won or descried Where the people are not taught these absurdities doe followe First they cannot serue God for they doe not knowe God Esay 19. Prius est Deum scire consequens colere Secondly the prince is not so dutifullie obeyed the rebellion in the North is a proofe of that Lastly the enemie to religion cannot be wonne for faith commeth by hearing Rom. 10. nor so easily descried for the holy word is a searcher Hebr. 4. All which loue the religion haue and doe desire a greater nomber of able teachers that our church may haue more beautie our prince more honour our people more heauenly comfort None mislike this but such as make Gods Church either a marke to shoote at or a carkasse to feede vpon The one sorte are professed enemies the other gracelesse hypocrites For they preferre myre before pearles earth before heauen and their filthie swine before Iesus Christ as the Gergesens did Mat. 8. 4. THE TEACHERS OF Religion must haue maintenance TO shewe kindenesse to the Lordes house is an excellent worke so did Nehemias a courtier To prouide maintenance for the teachers is to shewe kindnesse to the Lords house Nehem. 13. verse 14. What then is their kindenesse which sell Church liuings as Iudas did Christ The abominable sale and marchandise of Church liuings is cried out against in Court Citie and Vniuersities Propter abundantiam as one said of late nonpotest propter impudentiam non vult celari that is the polling and sale of Church liuings is so common that it cannot and so shameles that it will not be hidde To forsake the house of God is a heinous sinne not to prouide for the teachers is to forsake the house of God Nehem. 10. and 13. Chap. Howe greate then is their sinne which robbe the Church and Churchmen It is a grosse sinne to spoyle either
edifying word vnlesse it be vttered according to the ordinance both in regard of the persons that vtter the same and the ende wherefore it is vttered Chap. 8. pag. 99. This is a Popish errour for the Scripture is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is of credite in it selfe Reade my answere Chap. 8. pag. 102. M. Penry saith that there is no Church at all in Popery Chap. 23. pag. 175. 176. This is a grosse errour condemned of very famous men and all reformed Churches If there be no church at all in Popery these absurdities will followe first the Pope is not Antichrist Secondly the infants of Papists may not be baptized in any reformed Church though some of the Religion doe present them to Baptisme and publiquely vndertake the good education of them Reade that which I haue written Chap. 17. pag. 147. 148. 149. and Chap. 23. pag. 176. M. Penry saith that if there be a Church in Popery our Magistrates c. are Schismatiques inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church of Rome Chap. 17. pag. 151. This is a grosse and Popish collection and cannot stand with the duetie of a subiect Reade my answere Chap. 17. pag. 151. 152. M. Penry writeth that men in the Popish Church are not ingraffed by Baptisme into a true Christ His wordes are these Where there is no true Christ whereunto men can be ingraffed by Baptisme there true Baptisme as touching the substance cannot be gotten c. But in Popery there is no true Christ whereinto men may be ingraffed c. Chap. 23. pag. 173. This is a grosse errour condemned of all famous writers and Churches Reade that which I haue written Chap. 23. pag. 173. 174. and cha 20. pag. 156. 157. Maister Penry writeth that if baptisme administred by vnpreaching ministers were denied to be a Sacrament he would wish none to offer themselues to that holy Sacrament for sixe causes First we are already receyued into the bosome of the Church and acknowledged to haue the seale of the couenant in as much as we were once offered and receyued into the number of the godly by the outwarde elemēt though corruptly To what end then should baptisme serue vs againe In his exhort to the gouernonrs c. of Wales pag. 31. If this be true which M. Penry saith the outwarde and bare element deliuered by him which in M. Penryes iudgement is no minister is the seale of Gods couenant Which is a most absurd heresie Secondly the absolute necessitie of baptisme to saluation by this meanes might seeme to be mainteined False They which require men vnbaptized to offer themselues to Baptisme are perswaded that the contempt of the Sacrament is damnable they doe not thinke that all which die without Baptisme if contempt bee absent are damned Besides Baptisme is necessarie in respect of our obedience but what obedience is performed when Baptisme is refused Thirdly least wee should seeme to agree with the heretical Catabaptists If no Baptisme was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers M. Penry is an hereticall Catabaptist if hee dehort any such from holy Baptisme as were baptized by vnpreaching ministers Fourthly other Churches haue not publikely decided the cause They needed not They made no question of it for with one voyce they condemne your Anabaptisticall fancies Fiftly that the practise should not enforce them to bee rebaptized which haue bene alreadie baptized by such as had commission from the Lord to deale in those mysteries If they be already baptized no reason they should desire a second Baptisme for Baptisme may not be iterated I haue prooued this point in my Treatise of the Sacraments and in this booke Chap. 19. pag. 156. Lastly they who being nowe in the age of discretion haue beene baptized by Idoll ministers are either called or not called to saluation If called why should they be rebaptized seeing alreadie they haue bene made partakers of the outward element and accompted in the number of Christians If not called neither should they be baptized vntill they declared by their workes that they were Gods children If they receiued the Sacrament before they neede not If they receiued no Sacrament they cannot absteine from Baptisme without intollerable both sinne and vengeance None that are effectually called either haue or will refuse to offer themselues to Baptisme which Baptisme before they had not Cornelius example doeth teach vs that Acts. 10. Yea I dare be bold to say that her Maiesties subiects which are vnbaptized and do not offer themselues to Baptisme are not as yet effectually called whatsoeuer either they or you pretende The reason is None are effectually called which are not within the compasse of Gods couenant The words of Gods couenant are these I will be thy God and the God of thy seede Gen. 17. Are they within the compasse of this couenant which either wittingly omit or wilfully refuse Baptisme which is the seale of Gods couenant M. Penry sayth that the preaching of the worde is necessarily required in the administration of Baptisme chap. 7 pag. 82. If this were true al such as were Baptized without a Sermon receiued no Sacrament I referre you to my answere Chap. 7. pag. 84. M. Penry sayeth that Baptisme is not out of the Church Chap. 23. pag. 176. This is a grosse errour Reade that which I haue written Chap. 21. pag. 158. c. M. Penryes iudgement is that Queene Elizabeth and many thousandes in England are vnbaptized That his iudgement is such I proue it by his owne wordes He writeth thus c. In Popery there is no true Christ whereunto men may be ingraffed c. And a litle before What Baptisme is that which is not an ingraffing into the true Christ Chap. 23. pag. 173. A litle after he hath these words There is no Church at all in Popery chap. 23. pag. 175. 176. And in an other place c. that Baptisme is not out of the Church If M. Penry shall answere that it was Baptisme in the Popish church yesterday but it is not so either to day or to morowe because the Christ professed now in Popery is not a true but a deuided Christ I must needes tell him that Christ in the Popish profession was diuided as well when her Maiestie c. was Baptized as he is deuided in the Popish profession in this day Besides M. Penry writeth that the Popish church was neuer the Temple of God since Antichrist planted his pestilent chaire therein Chap. 22. pag. 165. To conclude seeing there is in M. Penryes iudgement no Church no Baptisme no Ministery in the Popish church c. I may be bold to affirme that in M. Penryes iudgement her Maiestie and many thousandes more are vnbaptized M. Penry saith that the holy Supper is an extraordinary Sacrament which is deliuered priuately by a Minister Chap. 14. pag. 139. This error is condemned by M. Caluine whose resolution is that it is lawfull to administer the holy Supper priuately if certaine cautions be
kingdome hee and his sonnes in the middes of Israel Deut. 17. I frame my argument thus The king is commaunded to reade the lawe of God that hee may learne to feare God and decline pride therefore the reading of the law of God doth edifie In king Iosias time the booke of the lawe was found by Hilkiah the Priest This booke was read in the Lordes house The king was present so were all the men of Iuda the inhabitants of Ierusalem and the Priests and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest c. 2. Chron. 34. I make my argument thus The booke of the lawe was not read in vaine in the Lordes house c. 2. Kings 22. therefore it did edifie All the wordes of my mouth are righteous there is no lewdnesse nor frowardnesse in them They are all plaine to him that will vnderstande and streight to them that would find knowledge Prou. 8. Therefore the holy Scriptures both read and preached doe edifie His salubriter praua corriguntur paruanutriuntur magna oblectantur ingenia Aug. Epist 3. The holy Scripture hath in it milke for babes and stronger meate for them that are of age Heb. 5. The holy Scripture is a shallowe water where in the lambe may wade and a great sea wherein the Elephant may swimme The Lawe and the Prophets were read in the Churches of Antiochia and Ierusalem Act. 13. and in Nazareth Luke 4. If the reading of the holy Scriptures doe not edifie why were the law and Prophets read in the Temple and Synagogues The Apostle writeth thus to the pastours and people of Colosse Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously c. Coloss 3. Therefore Gods people are not to be barred from the reading of the holy Scripture If it doeth not edifie they were iustly barred by the Popish Cleargie Victorinus was an Oratour in Rome By reading the Scriptures he became a Christian Mirante Roma gaudente ecclesia that is Rome marueyled at Victorinus conuersion Gods Church was glad of it Aug. Confess lib. 8. cap. 2. Gods speach vnto vs I am sure doth edifie when the Scriptures are read God speaketh vnto vs. The holy Scriptures are Dei Epistola c. that is Gods Epistle vnto vs. By reading the Scriptures Gods people do more easily receiue Gods holy truth and espie Popish absurdities and Anabaptisticall fancies They which mislike the reading of the scriptures are Zwingfildians that is absurde heretikes What then is master Penry which writeth that the worde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not wholesome doctrine If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I am an enemie to the preaching of the word hee deserueth no answere My iudgement is If the reading of the holy scriptures doeth edifie that sounde preaching doeth edifie much more By sound preaching I vnderstand the giuing of the true sense of the scripture and applying it to the profite of the auditours Thus did Ezra Christ the Apostles preach This course I am sure doeth highly please God and bringeth many sheepe into the Lordes folde The Lorde increase the number of such teachers that Gods religion may flourish as Aarons rod did and that Popish and Anabaptisticall errours may be deuoured as the roddes of the Egyptian sorcerers were Ille huic doctrinae inimicus est animus qui vel errando eam nescit esse saluberrimam vel odit aegrotando medicinam Agust Epist. 3. CHAP. 5. A DEFENCE OF THAT which hath bene written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie and the communicating with them By IOHN PENRY THere be two things M. D. SOME wherein you by oppugning that trueth which out of the worde of God I had set downe concerning the two former questions haue bene wanting both vnto your selfe and to the cause the defence whereof you vndertooke The former want of the two appeareth by your spare dealing in a matter of such great weight wherin you haue dealt with so illiberal a hand that what hath bene written by you might seeme to proceede rather from any then from a man whose gifts and learning seemed to promise the affording of greater and more weightie matters then any set downe in that treatise R. Some Your beginning is full of courage I do not wonder at it He that runneth alone is alwayes formost You accuse me to withstande Gods trueth A sore charge If true I must reuerse my iudgement if vntrue true you haue dealt iniuriously with me When Ioas was aduanced to the Imperiall Crowne of Iuda Athalia cried Treason Treason 2. Chron. 23. A hard speach against king Ioas Iehoiada c. But Athalia her selfe was the Traitour You shall apply this I haue dealt you say verie sparingly in a matter of great importance If I haue so your aduantage is greater If the seede sowen in my booke were like yours I might be iustly thought to bee verie prodigall My treatise I perceiue is not for your tooth it is simple in your eye Aquila non capit muscas It hath pleased many I thanke God of excellent learning and wisedome to like of it That is my comfort Instar mille Platonis calculus I make very meane account as yet of your iudgement You are not read you are to seeke in the principles of diuinitie you haue broched grosse errours you know not your ignorance For that knowledge which Almightie God hath giuen me I thanke his Maiestie verie humbly It is more I confesse then I am worthie of God giue me grace to vse it to his glorie I. Penry The number of my reasons were many you onely haue touched two of them the rest are not dealt with And therefore the cause as yet remaineth whole For be it you had answered these two as you haue not yet had you not satisfied the doubtfull conscience of those that know not in these points which way to turne them as long as any one of my reasons remayned vnanswered R. Some Your reasons I confesse haue number but they want weight I haue confuted three of them The first of the three is accompted by you a pillar of marble But I haue not you say dealt with the rest Content yourselfe I haue made no fault I answered such and so many as were deliuered to me by some of your faction When I had finished my treatise your booke was brought me before I knew not that you were the father of them You denie that I haue answered any of your reasons It is easie to say so and you might worst haue sayde it A partie is vnfit to be a Iudge Your reasons are all of one stampe therefore the ouerthrow of the principall is the ouerthrow of all Your followers vvhich knowe not which way to turne them may thanke both you and themselues you for sowing themselues for reaping such giddie fancies It is an easie thing to leade and fall into an Anabaptisticall maze They will not bee satisfied you say before
these two points which you alone in our Church haue publiquely called in question And for mine owne part when you haue done I knowe not who will be your aduersarie I see no reason why I shoulde deale in controuersies of so small gaine Of this I am assured that neither Popish priestes nor any other ignorant guides are Ministers Whether the Element administred by them be a Sacramēt or no looke you to that which haue in your Treatise debated that which my writings neuer called into question If you will needes proue readers to be Ministers because you cannot get mee to denie that which hath bene administred to be a Sacrament you shall but presse that which will proue nothing Your reason is as if you should say that either all they which supplie the places of ministers are ministers or els an inconuenience is likely to followe A strange maner of demonstration Gods ordinance must needes be thrust out of the doores because an inconuenience would be likely to ensue the admitting of it The cause will not be thus answered at your hands and I am sory that a man so reuerend in mine eyes hath dealt so vnsubstantially in a matter belonging to the seruice of the euerliuing God the slendernesse of the reason is apparant In the latter end of the booke I haue further shewed the same thither I am to referre you and the reader R. Some You are come at the last to my treatise In Gods name You giue out that I dealt in two needelesse points Not so by your leaue for some in London and other places being seduced by vnskilfull teachers denied them both You do not so your words are as cleare as the day and are these In these two poyntes M. Some c. you haue proued nothing that my writings haue denied I thanke you for this You are nowe in a very good moode but you will not be so long Virtutes latere nō possunt Ful vessels wil burst if they haue not a vent If you deny not that true baptisme was deliuered by popish priestes and vnpreaching ministers you cannot deny popish priestes and vnpreaching ministers to haue a calling My reason is Nullum Sacramentum sine ministro that is No Sacrament without a minister The wrangling spirits you write of are the more because of your absurde writings but they are not so many thankes be to God as you imagine They which are so forwarde in iangling of these points are either of your humour which is very bad or Anabaptisticall recusants which is somewhat worse You adde these words A strange manner of demonstration c. They do proclaime your ignorance they doe not answere my reason I perceiue an argument ab absurdo is a pille that will not downe with you The slendernes of my reasons is repeated by you euery handwhile It is like the Cuckoes song It pleaseth you againe to reuerence me You are at more cost then I would haue you This reuerence is either a burden or a benefit If a burden lade some other with it If a benefit beneficium non datur inuito I will none of it I. Penry Nowe I coulde well ouerpasse these two pointes because of themselues they contayne nothing that I haue withstoode but in as much as you haue not onely grounded them vpon false principles and such as in no wise can be warranted by the Canon of the worde but also inferre vpon their graunt that our readers are ministers and consequently that it is no sinne to communicate with them I am first to set downe the state of the question which in deede is and ought to bee decided betweene you and me concerning the Element administred both by popish priestes and other vnpreaching ministers and secondly to examine the grounds whereby you prooue the Element already deliuered by them to be a sacrament which you knowe I doe not deny to be so R. Some Because I haue an ill memory you tell me againe and againe that you deny not the sixth and seuenth proposition of my treatise It is well done of you I would you woulde keepe you there Onely you mislike the foundatiō I built on and some consequents I am sory for your heauinesse My grounds you say shal be examined Spare them not Arraigne them if you will But what shall I reason of or looke for at your hands To be acquited no hope of that To be condemned It is certaine for it hath pleased you to giue sentence before examination Harde dealing but I must abide it I. Penry The question therefore is not whether the one or the other of them haue deliuered a Sacrament in respect of the action done but whether a Christian going vnto them for those holy seales may be assured that hee can receiue the same at their hands I affirme that wee cannot M. Some taketh it graunted that we may My warrant is out of the worde because there is no promise made to vs therein that the action celebrated by such men is a Sacramentall action and where there is no promise there can be no assurance because our assurance ariseth onely of faith which must be grounded vpon the promises sette downe in the worde We haue no promise that they can deliuer vs a Sacrament because they are no ministers For they onely are enioyned by our Sauiour Christ to deliuer a Sacrament neither doe we knowe what he can deliuer which is no minister R. Some No maruaile though you dissent from me Conueniet nulli qui secum c. You are at warre with your selfe Your wordes agree like harpe and harrowe One while you denie not that popish priestes and vnpreaching ministers haue deliuered a sacrament An other while you knowe not what they can deliuer for they are as you say no ministers To that ende you depraue Christs speech in S. Matthew c. What dealing is this Sacrament and no Sacrament and all with one breath What can such as are no ministers deliuer a Sacrament If you say No then popish Priestes vnpreaching ministers neither haue nor can deliuer a Sacrament for they are as you say no ministers that is they haue no calling at all Your disciples are fit vessels to receiue any liquor of yours but men of learning and wisedome are otherwise affected They see clearely that your dealing is absurde and dangerous Absurde for it is voyde of trueth Dangerous for it woulde breede confusion The magistrates thankes bee to God neither doe nor will suffer this bad course of yours If they should fancies woulde as weedes growe too too fast and this noble land shoulde receiue more hurt then your head is worth I doubt not of their godly wisdome The miserable estate of Germanie heretofore by reason of Sectaries may and will awake them If you be restrained for your grosse errours as some other are very iustly you may not cry persecution persecution your note must be poena perfidiae that is that you are iustly met with Otherwise you sing
Cor. 11.28 in as much as they do not acknowledge it a sinne to communicate where there is no Minister R. Some This reason is all one with your first therefore it is alreadie answered They which offer themselues to the holy Table without due examinatiō of themselues are vnworthy receiuers This examination consists of faith and repentance I. Penry Because they either make the element to bee a Sacrament naturally in it selfe and not by the ordinance of God or els thinke the ordinance of God in the institution of the Sacrament onely to consist in the recitall of the words I baptise thee c. or take eate c. whereas a Minister is a most principall part of the ordinance R. Some You are an vnpleasant Musician You harpe still on one string viz. that vnpreaching Ministērs haue no calling Vnlesse that be graunted you are at a full point No godly man that I knowe maketh the element to be a Sacrament naturally in it selfe or once thinketh that it is a Sacrament when the wordes of institution I baptize thee c. or take eate c. are added to the elemēts by one that hath no calling Only M. Penry is of that iudgement which denieth not that they are Sacraments which are administred by vnpreaching Ministers and yet these Sacraments are but bare elemēts if vnpreaching Ministers haue no calling as M. Pen. affirmeth You make the Minister a most principal part of the Sacrament I graunt the Minister is an instrument to deliuer it but the most principal part life of the Sacramēts dependeth vpō Gods promises expressed in his holy word I. Penry Because they make the Sacraments to be markes no more essential vnto the Church then to other idolatrous Synagogues for the element may be deliuered out of the Church by a publique person euen as substātially as by our meere readers R. Some This reason must needs by a sure one it is so handsomely trussed together The godly communicants confesse the Sacraments to be essential marks of the Church that idolatrous Synagogues are vnworthie of such precious iewels I graunt that water which is the outward element in Baptisme may be deliuered by any either womā or priuate man without the Church but it shall not be a Sacrament as that is which is deliuered by vnpreaching Ministers If I should tel you that a Sacrament hath bene deliuered out of the Church you would accompt it a strange paradoxe What I thinke of it doeth appeare in an other place of this treatise But what if M. Penry denieth not that baptisme hath bene and is deliuered out of the Church That hee doeth not deny it it is manifest His owne words are these Wil you hold that there is a Church in Popery the assertion is dāgerous c. pag. 25. And a litle after he hath these words In Popery there is no Church pag. 27. M. Penry in other places of his booke denieth not that such as were baptized in Poperie receiued true baptisme therfore he denieth not that a Sacrament is deliuered out of the Church c. euen by Popish priestes which as hee saith haue no calling at all in the Church I. Penry They approue the finne of the vnpreaching Ministerie R. Some The Apostles receiued the Lordes Supper with Iudas but they did not approue the theft treason of Iudas The godly which desire executiō of iustice at the hands of a heathen or corrupt Magistrate can not be said to approue either Paganisme or corruption in the Magistrate for then the Apostle sinned grosly in appealing vnto Caesar Acts. 25. The godly communicants do not approue any sinne of the ignorant Ministerie for they condemne it and pray against it I. Penry Because they are perswaded that Christ doeth deliuer vnto them the seales of their saluation by the handes of those that are not Ministers to wit by vnpreaching readers In all which points the godly sinne therefore are polluted in communicating with vnpreaching Ministers R. Some Not one learned man in this land that I can heare of is so perswaded They al do confesse that vnpreaching Ministers haue a calling and that the godly receiuing the Sacrament at their handes are parakers of the seales of their saluation If you and your crewe be otherwise affected God sende you other mindes Iohn Penry In his addition Page 65. And I dare arrest and attaint of high treason against the Maiestie of the highest all those both men and Angels who either defende the communicating with them lawful communicate with them or tollerate them as ministers vnder their gouernement R. Some You lay on loade but it is fulmen sine tonitru blacke cloudes but no raine When your single arguments will not serue the turne you play the officer and doe arrest for traitours against God all the Magistrates and learned men of this lande The best is Almighty God hath not put his mace into your hands It is a note of a false prophet to kill the soules of them that die not Ezech. 13. That they are not polluted which receiue the Sacraments at the hands of vnpreaching Ministers is sufficiently prooued Such Bishops and Patrons as haue either ordeined or presented vnfit men to the holly ministery and clergie liuings haue much to answere for I doe not defend or excuse such Bishops Patrons or ministers I know they haue highly offended the maiestie of God and I pray God with all my heart that this sore may be healed I. Penry They of whose ministery there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outward calling ought not to be accoumpted ministers therefore not to be communicated with R. Some I deny your Antecedent My reasons are first there was a nullitie before God of Caiphas priesthood for he entred by money and the priesthood was diuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Matth. 26. Iohn 18. Secondly there was a nullitie before God of the ministery of some in Philippi which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Paules bandes Philip. Chap. 1.15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle verse 15.18 If any shall deny that there was a nullitie before God of their ministerie I proue it thus they had not an inward calling M. Penry saieth that an inward calling is contained in the sufficiencie of gifts and willingnesse to practise them Pag. 45. If M. Penry meane the practise of gifts to Gods glory I say Amen vnto it I confesse that they of Philippi had gifts in some measure but they had not willingnesse to practise those gifts to Gods glory which willingnesse c. is one of the necessary branches of an inwarde calling That they of Philippi had not this willingnes c. it is manifest for they sought themselues practised their gifts wholy to encrease the Apostles afflictions I. Penry Concerning the Nullitie of our readers ministery we are to know that