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word_n	doctrine_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	6,474	5	9.3640	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A89859	Weaknes above wickednes, and truth above subtilty. Which is the Quakers defence against the boaster and his deceitfull slanders. Clearly seen in an answer to a book called Quakers quaking; devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world, and scorned by the scorners. In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome, and the truth cleared from the accuser. In much plainesse, that the simple may see and perceive, and come to be gathered to the Lamb, from amongst the armies of the wicked, who have now set themselves against the Lord, and sees it not. Also some queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false doctrine and deceits. / by one who is called, James Nayler.	Naylor, James, 1617?-1660.	1656 (1656)	Wing N327; ESTC R207303	22,439	32

WEAKNES above WICKEDNES AND TRVTH above SVBTILTY Which is the Quakers Defence against the Boaster and his deceitfull slanders Clearly seen in an ANSWER to a BOOK called QVAKERS QVAKING Devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world and scorned by the scorners In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome and the truth cleared from the accuser In much plainnesse that the simple may see and perceive and come to be gathered to the Lamb from amongst the Armies of the wicked who have now set themselves against the Lord and sees it not Also some Queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false Doctrine and Deceits By one who is called JAMES NAYLER LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black-spread-Eagle near the West end of Pauls 1656. WEAKNESSE ABOVE WICKEDNESSE AND Truth ABOVE Subtilty Which is the Quakers Defence against the Boaster and his deceitfull slanders Clearly seen in an ANSVVER to a Book called Quakers Quaking Devised by Jeremy Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world and scorned by the scorners WELL knew the Apostle what he said when he desired the Saints prayers that he might be delivered from Men without faith for he well knew them above all others to be the most unreasonable And the same is seen in thee Jeremy Ive's who having denyed the faith of God which is the gift of God in his Saints and set up a faith of thine own which is not the gift of God and therein hath set up in thy vaine Phylosophy and deceitfull craft wherewithall thou art become so unreasonable as not only to use thy crafty reason in broaching deceitful blasphemous doctrins denying the faith of God once received of the Saints contending against it not to be the gift of God as thou didst at Gerrard Roberts before many witnesses But also using thy craft to reason against the truth of God manifest in his Saints the Light of the world manifest in the world in which all the world may be a witness against thee yea against the plaine expresse words of the Scripture as will appear in this thy Book yea against Christ himselfe who is that Spirit whereby to set up another for judgement as by thy reasoning at Gerrard Roberts before many people where thou said that a man may understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God and so try the Spirits and went about to prove it with thy cursed art which thing to affirme in plainnesse and truth is to deny the Spirit of Christ for to be the Teacher Judger and Tryer of all Spirits and to set up the spirit of the Devill in its stead for he that tryeth and judgeth without the Spirit of God doth it with the spirit of Satan and with that Spirit did the Scribes and Pharisees who denyed the gift of God as thou dost understand the Scriptures and try the Spirit of Jesus and Judged him to be a Devill and a Deceiver as thou dost such in whom he is manifest for which end thou hast mustered up this heap of filth and lies in thy Book to cast upon the truth and make it odious and the greatest strength thou hast in this thy work is thy vaine Phylosophy and craft with which thou reasons against the Truth both in the Saints now manifest and against the plaine Scriptures Which things may so plainly be seen to be but a heap of subtilty where the least honesty may judge thereof so that there is little danger of its doing any hurt where the least measure of innocency is minded so I shall not much trouble my selfe in the answering every particular of thy vaine stories slanders and lies onely some few I shall speak too as may serve to discover the rest what root they are of Thou commends thy Work to thy Brethren whom thou calls the Churches of Christ called to be faithfull c. And thou sayes thou knowes none to whom thy work will be more welcome I say if they be Brethren of thy Faith who with thee have denyed the Faith of Christ and set up a Faith of their own then it is like that thy work should be most welcome unto such whose faith is to believe lyes for the Devills Faith is most fit to receive and welcome the Devills work And thou tells of raising the siege laid by the Adversaries to your Faith and order I say fitly are these two put together being neither the Faith nor order of the Saints nor that which the Scripture will own neither your faith nor practice And he that is a friend of God must be an Enemy of that which is not the gift of God and that which is not the gift of God being gotten by the Devill That we deny First Thou begins about our Quaking whether we may be so called or no about which I shall not contend what Name we receive from the world whether they call us that which is true or that which is not true the thing to me I passe by onely I mind thee of a lye thou tellest because thou seems to promise repentance being better inform'd that is that we foame at the mouth in our Tremblings in our meetings but to them that are blind thou seems to prove it before thou leave it and that is because it was cast upon us in the Westmorland Priests Petition and we did not deny it though we denyed some other things in that Petition which proofe is but thus much that if I leave any of thy lies undenyed which thou hast heaped up in this thy Book the next of thy Bretheren that comes after thee to accuse us may make it a proofe that we are guilty thereof and so the lyar proves to the lyar whilst the Innocent are silent And with such proofes as this hast thou proved many of thy slanders in thy Book which might as clearly be shewed was it worth the while to follow thee into all thy deceits but a few may serve to lead the wise to see the rest The next thing thou accusest is our Doctrine and thou confessest we preach somewhat that is true yet sayest thou in this they are but the greater Deceivers And finding nothing of the truth we preach thou darest accuse thou makes a lye of thine own to accuse us with that is that we will allow of nothing to be called Gods Word but Christ and having cast this upon us thou goes about to disprove it and so disproves thy own lye and not our Doctrine so it being thine own work I shall leave it to thee The next thing thou charges upon us is that we say the Scripture may not be called the word of God which is false also as in thy sence for we own the Scripture where it is given to any by the inspiration of God to be the word to such but to others who have it not of God they may read the letter and not hear the word and have a Bible and be

without the word and in this respect and no other doe we deny many who would make the letter the word which thou wouldst do did none know better then to believe thee and not onely so but would stop the mouth of God from speaking any more in his people or us for confessing to his word in us at which thou wrangles with words not worth heeding Thy third Errour thou charges us with is that we say we are immediatly sent of God and that thou canst not receive and yet art not ashamed to count me a lyar for saying That I coming in the name of God thou couldst not receive me but if I had come in my own name thou couldest But what spirit thou art of and of whose message thou goest is plainly seen who sets it down as an Error to say they are sent of God doth not thou herein justifie the false Prophets who run unsent and would not thou have condemned the true Prophets and Apostles as thou dost us had thou lived in their dayes who said they were sent of God and did not work Miracles in the sight of all they preacht to which thou requirest or else thou wilt not believe but the Devills faith could never believe Gods Messengers with Miracles nor without Miracles it s not like thou shouldest believe any that is sent of God who denies that Faith which is the gift of God and so calls that error which all the Ministers of Christ doth own and that which thou calls error we own and make proof thereof in our measures as they did in patience in afflictions in necessities and distresses in stripes and Imprisonments in tumults in labours in watchings and fastings c. and in turning people from their in quities which thou falsly sayes is not a singne of a Minister of Christ Then thou goes on a deceitfull story glorying in lyes adding words that was never spoken and diminishing truth to make thy selfe a cover with a lye concerning our disputes but doth not speak the truth as to thine own blasphemous Heresies which thou affirmed and went about to maintaine at Gerrard Roberts our first meeting and at other places which thy deceit hides such as these following to wit thou affirmed before many witnesses That Faith by which men are saved is not the gift of God That a man may understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God and so try Spirits That all good is not of God That the obedience of believers is not the gift of God That the Law was not given forth by Christ That Christ was not the Minister of Circumcision That none was baptized with the holy Ghost but who wrote Miracles That John Baptist went not out of Jerusalem to Baptize That the Wildernesse in which John baptized was in Jerusalem That Jordan in which John did baptize was in Jerusalem That whosoever speaks that which they to whom he speaks doe not understand he is a foole and a Barbarian Thou said also that thou could foretel things to come and yet was not baptized with the Spirit Of which Errors I writ to thee in a Letter presently after but could never receive an answer thereof Also thy other deceits holden forth at the Bull and Mouth which were such as these That Christ lighteth every man that cometh into the world but this light was not within That the Heathen had a light that convinc't them of sin but this light was not within them That Christ took away the sin of every Man that cometh into the world Hadst thou intended honesty thou shouldst have published the whole Truth but it is the way of the Author of thy faith to cover himselfe with lyes but it is but that he may be laid open where he is and that truth may discover other of thy lyes and old stories of Austin the Monk Gregory the Pope and the King of Kent which are things more fit to rot then to be raked in I passe them by as most sutable to returne them back into the bottle from whence they came And least thou shouldst deny that I sent thee such a letter which thou never answered I shall here publish a Copy thereof that thou may answer it in thy next and others may see I have not wronged thee which Letter is as followeth Jeremy Ive's THY blasphemous deceitfull Doctrines wherewith thou leads simple people into confusion and destruction I am moved to put thee in mind of that if thou be not wilfully blind thou mayst see thy selfe out of the power of God yea and out of the forme of the sound words in the letter also as appeared in thy discourse when I was with thee some of the particulars whereof I shall mention as thou didst affirme them before many witnesses First Thou saidst that a man may understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God and so try the Spirits But the Scripture saith Without Christ you can doe nothing John 15. 5. John 5. 30. 1 Cor. 2. and saith that Christ could doe nothing of himselfe and that the naturall man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned and that no man knows the things of God but the Spirit of God and that the Spirit searcheth Judges and reveals all the things of God c. And thy tryall of Spirits by the letter without the Acts 13. 27. Spirit is the same by which Christ was tryed by the Pharisees who read the Scripture of the Prophets every Sabbath but not understanding their voyces by the letter put him to death and thou art not wiser without the Spirit of God then they was and so art found an enemy to him as they was and in the same Spirit Thou said also That the Faith by which we are saved is not the gift of God But the Scripture saith By Grace you are saved through Ephes 2. 8. Faith not of your selves it is the gift of God and that Christ is the author and finisher of the Saints faith and every H b 12 2. James 1 17. John 3. 27. 2. Cor 4 13 Jude 3. Heb. 11. 1. good gift comes from above from the father of light and that a man can receive nothing except it be given him from above and that the Saints had the Spirit of Faith and that the saith to salvation was delivered to the Saints and that Faith is the substance of things hoped And thou sayest it is not the gift of God so thy Faith which is not the gift of God is the Faith of the Devill and from him thou hast received it who hast not received it from God whereof thou mayst read James 3. Thou sayedst also that the obedience of Believers is not the gift of God But the Scripture saith that the Saints obedience was 1 Pet 1. 2. Isa 26. 12. Phil 2. 13. Phil 2 13. 1 Pet. 1. 22. John 3. 21 through the sanctification of the Spirit and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus and that

called a lye but not proved one and time will prove it otherwise The fifth lye is that James Naylor in a written Paper calls thee shamelesse Man for tempting him to deny the Lord. The sixth lye is that James Naylor in the same Paper said if he had come in his own name thou wouldst have received him as was confessed by thee To both which I answer as many can witnesse with me at the dispute which occasioned the Letter when I denyed thy faith to be the the faith of God or any of his Saints and proffered to prove it so before all the people if thou would put it upon tryall thou denyed my request unlesse I would deny my Call from God and say I was called some other way or else there work a miracle and then thou wouldst put thy faith on tryall according to my request which if this was not to tempt me to deny the Lord and his Call to obtaine a dispute wherein I could not be received while I confessed to come in the Name of God which another way in my own name and will thou proffered to receive me And this being done before many witnesses was the occasion of these words in my Letter as followeth O Shameless man was ever such a thing demanded by any child of God to tempt one to deny the Lord yea the Heathen would blush at such a thing to send for one to dispute and then to deny to come t otryall with that they call the Rule and touchstone unlesse they whom they did dispute with would deny their God first Hast not thou proved thy selfe worse then any that ever disputed with the Apostles or any of the Servants of God that ever he sent forth Dost thou professe the Scriptures and is it become such an odious thing to thee to come in the name of God that for that very thing thou drust not put thy Faith upon tryall by Scripture nor could receive me but if I would come in my own name thou would as thou plainly confessed that if I would say I was not sent of God thou would put thy Faith upon tryall c. Now the things being true before related as many can witnesse where the lye is in these words let honesty judge and let any mind the wicked one how he hath perverted my words to slander me with saying that I said if I had come in my own name he would have received me as saith he I said he did plainly confesse and leaves out the rest which words as I writ them runs thus as thou plainly confessed That if I would say I was not sent of God then thou would put thy Faith on tryall The truth of which words will be witnessed by many that heard that thou pretended that very thing to hinder the tryall of thy faith because of my coming in the name of God And further thou added that if I was one sent of God it was to no purpose to put thy faith on tryall with me for I would overturne all thy proofes or words to that purpose as may be testified by many witnesses So the lyes be to thy selfe and on thy head till thou repent thereof but peace and truth to him that loves it Thy seventh lie is that while one ran from Bull Mouth to thy house for the Paper I slipt away which is a most abominable falshood as hundreds can witnesse that I went not away till the meeting broke up neither knew I of any such thing as the Letter fetching neither have I yet run from your filthy lyes envy much les shall I run from the truths written with my own hand which I here have owned and clearly proved to be truth thee to be the lyar and and shall further doe it if to the truth it may be service able And when thou hast done thou sayest these a are but a few of those Legions of Lyes that are in our writings and preachings when the Lyes are thy own raised by that Spirit of Insidelity who having denyed the Faith of Christ would turne his truth into a lye and was thou not impudent in thy wickednesse thou might be ashamed of thy birth thou hast brought forth who hath been hunting for accusations against the truth but canst find none and so runs to a sort of hurling Priests and their false accusations thou preachest for Truths being of the same nature with them their reports agree most with thy spirit and thy foundation being deceit thy work falls upon thy own head Then thou makes a boast of something that thou wouldst prove the first thing is the writings of the Scripture to be the word of God this thou wouldst prove from Mark 7. to where Christ saith They that doe not honour their father and mother maketh the word of God of none effect saying that he faith their making this written Law of none effect which is false for his words are Making the word of God of none effect through your traditions but thou that wouldst make the letter of that command the word which was written in stone if thou readest 2 Cor. 3. thou mighst find the Apostle denies that or to be any Minister of it and saith that ministration is done away and owns the ministration of the Spirit and not of the letter so thou hast lost thy word if the Apostle saith true and a new proofe thou must seek to prove the letter the word Another proofe thou brings is from Jer. 36. where thou wouldst prove that the letter of that Role is the word of God which Baruck read so by thy proofe the word of God may be burnt if that Role be it and so thy word of God is lost that which was written in that Role not so much as being in the Bible and with such confused stuffe as this thou makest thy proofes which the least of wisdome would be ashamed of If that engraven in stone be the word and that in Baruks role the word and both wanting the letter of the one and the matter of the other then there is two of the words lost and how thou wilt prove that which is lost to be the word now wisdome may judge who knowes the word of the Lord that endures for ever what ever becomes of the letter but a literall ministration suits best with thy made faith how should that faith which comes not from God believe the living word but like thy fore-fathers the Jews who were deaf and blind as thou art who could read the Scriptures but the word of God had no place in them who could heare Christ speak literally with their carnall ears but could not hear his word Thy next proofe is as confused as the rest thou sayest thou would prove the Scriptures to be the word of God out of our own mouths and yet thy accusation against us is that we deny the Scriptures to be the word what conjuration is this that thou art about who canst prove