Egypt should knowe the beautie of Sion ther is a cloude betweene you and us we have blessed be our God a pillar of fire before us An other fault you say in my former reason is that because the censure of the Church should redresse defaultes therfore ther needeth no liturgie Nay take all with you No fault can be censured that is not a transgression against the rules of Gods worde and those to be censured by the doctrine and admonitions of the Church therfore we neede no liturgies To the worde of God onely ought all men to be bounde by covenant and for the transgressions therof onely to be censured G. GIFFORD The Church hath this power to ordeine according to Gods worde and to appointe such orders in matters of circumstance c. as shall most fuly serve to edification And then these orders being established the Church is to drive men to the observation of them I. GREENWOOD First in this your papisticall mudde I must tell you your reading of mens writinges for prayer is a falle worship of God and not a matter of circumstance And for matters of order and circumstance which are no part of the worship ther can be no other lawes made of them then Christ hath made As for ordeyning of lawes in the Church it is to plead for unwritten verities and to make the lawe of God unsufficient neyther can it be according to the worde to make anie lawe that God hath not made but an adding to his worde which is execrable pride these your wordes then according to Gods worde was but a cloake to cover the grossenes of your position for the worde ordeyne or create lawes is to make some that are not made before let us then see your cleane sentence to be this The Church hath authority in matters of order and circumstance to make and ordaine lawes in his Church for his worship now see how you contradict these Scriptures Rev. 22.18.19 Prov. 30.5.6 everie worde of God is pure etc. put nothing to his worde least he reproove thee and thou be found a liar likewise Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 and Gal. 3.15 though it be but a mans covenant when it is confirmed no man doth abrogate it or superordeine anie thing to it And the second Commaundement forbiddeth anie such humaine tradition in the worship of God all the Popes trinckets might be brought in by the same grounde We would willingly have seene your warrant for this doctrine your bare worde is not sufficient to impose other lawes then God hath made upon his Church This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to give libertie to make lawes in the worship of God Yet you will goe furder that such lawes being ordeyned established by publique authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to drive men to the observation of the same By your judgment our Saviour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique that would not himself nor his Disciples obey and observe the traditions of the Elders And what saith he unto pleaders for traditions It is thus written Marke 7.5 then asked him the Pharises and Scribes whie walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders but eate meate with unwashed hands Then be answeared surely Isay hath prophesied well of you hypocrites as it is written this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far from me But they worship me in vayne teaching doctrines mens precepts For you lay the commaundement of God aside and observe the tradition of men And to helpe foorth your evill matter instead of proof from the scripture you fal out into furious exclamation against them that desire onely to have the worde practised saying who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practise of your anabaptisticall freedome in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders lett all men judge the venemousnes of this tongue Christ pronunceth them accursed that add or superordeyne any thing to his worde and you pronounce judgement of them that onely obey his worde Shall it be said that Mr Gifford holdeth that the onely practise of Gods worde would be the cause of iunumerable divisions and offences This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell nowe it must be Mr Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances to be insufficient unperfect etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen I take it it is more like to be Anabaptistry to practise any thing without warrant of the word to make their own devises lawes in Gods worship then to doe nothing but what God hath commaunded within the limites of our callings For the franticke ministery it came of your owne wordes that therfore you must needes have a leiturgie because ther are manie franticke spirits in the ministerie then I say it is like you have a frantick ministerie that cannot be governed without another liturgie then Christs Testament For their great giftes you speake of I will not compare with them My reason from the Colossians was that as the Church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus if he transgressed and to stirr him up to his busines so all ministers that caused divisions contrary to the doctrine of Christ were to be admonished and avoyded if they repent not so that the worde of God and admonition by the same if they trāsgresse is the waye to keepe all men in due order and not imposing Leiturgies upon the Church besides Christs Testament And where you collected thus that if read Prayers and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous then wher will you finde a visible Church say you I answered that the true Church might erre even in this poynte though not in like height of sinne Then you desire that the Churches of England may find like favour at our hand to which I answeare let him that handleth that question with you shew you how your sinnes herein exceede other countries and persequute such as reprove you Your church as you all it cannot pleade ignorance Your rayling speaches of blind Schismatiques Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart if you cannot prove your Church to be the established Church of Christ they light all upon your self Ther are none Schismatiques but such as departe from the faith shew wherein we have transgressed will not be reformed In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ in that you practise the Statutes of Omry You chardge us with pride for that you saye we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches uppon earth This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Ierem. 18.18 why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that which whole nations have not seene we cannot but speake the things Gods Worde teacheth us if we speake trueth you need not oppose that we judge anie man it is the worde of God shall judge us all and I saye it is
to the Apostles namely to use that prescript forme of prayer as the perfect patterne direction to all mens true prayers But you I trust will make difference betwixt a forme to all prayers and praying or prayer And here you vehemently urge me to answeare you before I see you conclude any thing from the place and so I should runne into follie to answeare a matter before I heare it In your first entrance of this discourse you were rounde in your Syllogismes by two at once to wraft my wordes and can find none for your self Yt seemes your conscience is witnes the matter would not hang together And me thinkes you had never more neede to have shewed what you would drawe from this place Luke 11. Seing I either mistooke you the last time or els you make a simple collection which was this Christ said to his Disciples when you pray say Our Father and not when you meditate say Our Father Now what would you conclude of this except as I said that Christ would not have them meditate that Scripture But this I perceave was not your meaning now I partlie thinke your Argument should be if the sworde were not broken in the sheath thus Christ commaunded his Disciples when they prayde to say Our Father c. therefore to be tyed to reade over or say by roate certaine wordes is lawfull praying For the first that our Saviour Christ tyed no man or commaunded none to say over those verie wordes when they prayde but to pray according to that form after that manner as Math. 6. I manifested in my first writing I. that our Saviour did not commaunde us to use those wordes 2. that Matth. 6. doth not keepe the same wordes nor that number of wordes which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say read these wordes when you pray or say these wordes by roate After all which reasons slilye passed away in both your answeres you come with your bare affirmation that he commaunded those wordes to be said over by roate or reading Yea a litle after you say it is false to say that he commanded not the verie wordes to he said over when we pray And you further conclude that because Christ commaunded his Disciples to say over those wordes therefore all mens writings in the forme of praier may be brought into the publique assemblies to be read for praier being agreable to the worde To which I answere that seing no mans writings are without errour it is pernitious and blasphemous doctrine you collect First because you make mens writings of equal authority with the forme of praier which Christ hath prescribed 2. for that you give men as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier he being Lord of the house The wickednesse of which collections you shall never be able to answere And because you here urge me thereunto I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture wherwith by false interpretation you deceave the simple which taken from you your matter is nothing but cavilling The places are these Luke 11. Num 6. and because the one explanes the other and your collections the same from both I will beginne with numbers 6.32 33.34 etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying the Lord bless thee and keep thee etc. Here you say they were commaunded to use the verie wordes prescribed in all their blessings This I say is not true for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu thus shall you blesse wher the worde Coh is an adverb of similitude as we say after this manner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This worde Coh is used throughout the Bible in this maner in all the Prophets when they say thus sayth the Lorde where the summe of their prophesies are onely recorded to us by the holy Ghost and not all the wordes Againe this blessing is used in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer for the people in manie other wordes Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes etc. And where in Luke 11.2 it is recorded that our Saviour Christ commaunded his Disciples when you pray say Our Father c. it is plaine by the doctrines following 4.5.6.8.11 verses that Christ tied no man to the verie wordes saying over for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants But to make this place more plaine the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray say thus Our Father etc. where the greek word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh hath which is after this manner cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying over wher upon Mr. Calvin upon those wordes faith Noluit filius Dei prescribere quibus verbis utendum sit The Sonne of God would not prescribe what words we must use Now consider how falslie Mr Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures to say the Priests were commaunded to use the verie wordes and that Christ commaunded to use the verie wordes As for his collections that therefore mens writings may be imposed upon publique assemblies by stint number to be prayde it is an intollerable error bringeth in all poopery Here I must call all men that reade this fruitlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue to the defacing of Gods truth In his Epistle he proclaymed that I called all men Idolāters which you shall perceave to be his owne wordes and to that end I will breifly repeat it In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint and limitation instead of true invocation as also all reading menswritings for praying to be idolatrie In his answere he said he could not see by what collour it could be called Idolatrie or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be but it seemes the penners of these things take every sinne against the first table of the Lawe to be Idolatrie if they doe so saith he and with all doe hold that no Idolater shal be saved then doubtlesse all are lost c. To this ignorant excursorie I answered that all false and devised worship by mans intention was Idolatrie as the first and second commandements did testifie And to admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrie yet reading of mens writings instead of praying must needs be idolatry seing it is a transgression of the second Commandement Further though I needed not have followed his emptie head even a cloude without water yet I proceeded to prove that no idolater could be saved but b y repentance for their knowne sinne and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreet faults Moreover sayd I doe you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrie seing we cannot keep one Commandement and in
some things we sinne all In which wordes I plainely reproved his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed anie idolatrie and that no idolater could be saued and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance weaknes and imperfection c. in Gods children and open professed obstinate idolatrie Yet this godles man would lay to my charge that I should call all men idolaters wheras I never used such a worde in all my writings But onlie answered his folly in this running out from the question they were his owne wordes that brought this upon his owne heade by concluding that if every sinne against the first table were idolatrie and no idolater could be saved then all are lost let the grosnes then be his and not mine And I leave it to the consideration of all men whether I may not say that they which transgresse the first or second Commandements do commit idolatrie without absurdity But saith he though it be so yet the Scripture calleth not the godly murtherers idolaters etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning I answere that therefore your former absurd cavilling where you said if we hold it idolatrie etc. is by your owne mouth fully answered But to avoyde this foile he hath an other evasion J thought saith he we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a church is to be condemned and forsaken which is defiled therwith Here againe you misreport me J never reasoned to that end in in this whole discourse but onlie laboured to shew all men this error of reading mens writings instead of praying that they might learne how to converse with God their owne Conscience in prayer And what mendes will you make for this slandering and defacing of the truth to all the world all that I desire is your repentance and amendement which God graunt unto you if you be his It followeth in your booke thus But seeing you confess that all men be Idolaters that is touching the remanents of sinne it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots etc. This worde idolaters must still be yours then I willinglie graunt that no man living is free from idolatrie concerning the reliques of sinne Also that no Church upon earth can be without spot upon earth So that now by your owne confession I pleade not for perfection in this life though the more we want the more we ought to endevour With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle and out of one mouth give contrarie sentence Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of untruthes was it possible I should bold al men idolaters some men without committing of sinne after regeneration especially to maintaine both such heresies as you give out Wel consider yourself before the Lord call you to accompt for defacing his truth and pleading for Baal I grant yea I were not of God if I should speake otherwise that the deare servants of God fall into most lothsome sinnes after regeneration that the riches of Gods mercie might appeare in their repentance through the worke of his grace Then you reason thus if ther be alwaies spottes and imperfectnes in the true Church upon earth then all your Arguments you bring against the Church of England are of no force except you will maintaine a perfection Mine answere is I will not meddle with your Ch. to prove it a false church in this treatise but refer you to Mr Barrowes refutation of Mr Gifford him that handleth that part of your booke Yet I must tell you your argument is verie simple For after the same manner you might reason thus If ther be no true Church without spottes upon earth then the Church of Rome is the true Ch. for it hath manie spottes and you all Scismatiques Againe you assume the matter you should prove It will be proved against you that you have not Ecclesiam a people called fourth of the world to the obedience of Christ Then that the spottes of your Church are Egyptian ulcers incurable running botches But I purposed not to deale with your Church onelie my mind is to shew the unlawfulnes of this reading and imposing mens writings upon mens Consciences in stead of true praying Of which sinne the Lord give you and this whole land grace to repent that so men may learne more ferventlie to call upon God The first Argument against read Prayer c. No Apocrypha must be brought into the publique assemblies for there onelie GODS worde and lively voyce of his owne graces must be hearde in the publique assemblies But mens writings and the reading of them over for prayer are Apocrypha therefore may not be brought into the publique assemblies GEORGE GIFFORD First touching the Proposition No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publique assemblies What can be more false Apocrypha is opposed against Canonicall If nothing may be brought into the publique assemblies but Canonicall Scripture then the Sermons and prayers of Pastors are to be banished c. IOHN GREENWODS Answer IN the answere of this you will needes oppose against both Propositions yet have nothing to say if not to royle the doctrines delivered with your feete least others should drinke therof The part of a wise man had beene to lay his hand on his mouth In the first Proposition you would oppose the worde Apocripha against the lively voyce of Gods graces when you see I said onlie that no Apocripha might be brought into the publique assemblies And further to explane my minde least you should willingly finde such a cavill I added this reason for there only Gods worde the lively voyces of his graces are to be heard where I acknowledged those livelie voyces to be Gods ordinance yet nether to be called Apocrypha nor Canonical How can you say th̄e I would have these or that these are banished if all Apocrypha writings be banished the publique assemblies Yet as I told you I take Apocrypha to be all writings but the Canonicall Authenique Scriptures But say you then I will exclude the Paraphrases upon the Scriptures and the Psalmes in Metre etc. Affirme you them to be Apocrypha as you doe and can do no other I wil through Gods grace prove they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies First no mans writings are given to the Church by testimonie of Gods spirit we are onelie commaunded to heare what the spirit saith therefore though mens writings be permitted to be read privatelie of them that will and therupon called Apocrypha that is hidden they may not be brought into the publique assemblies Secondly no mans writings are without errour and imperfections therfore not to be brought into the publique assemblies The Church is the pillar of truth Thirdlie the Church is builded upon the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles Christ Iesus being the cheif corner stone and not upon mens writings Therefore mens writings may not be brought into the
an ignorant man to say that Singing is praier seing they are twoo diuers actions exercises of our faith the one never read for the other nor said to be a part of the other through the Scriptures but are playnely distinguished I. Cor. 14.15 what is it then I wil pray with the spirit but I will pray with vnderstanding I will sing with the spirit etc. Againe if you be sad pray and if you be merye sing Psalmes prosuxomai and psalo I wil pray and I will sing are divers exercises of the faith if a man should say reading a chapter of the scripture and prophecying were alon were he not wide Even so euery part of Gods service is not praier I graunt we are every where commaunded to singe Psalmes unto God And alleadged that place of the Apostle to the Ephes. 5. 19. Speaking to your selves in Psalmes and Himnes and Spirituall songes etc. and that of the Coloss only to this end that in Psalmes singing we do not alwaies speake vnto God as in those Psalmes which are onelie instructions and prophesies in the 1. and 2. Psalmes you have not one worde spoken vnto God Againe as all reading of the praiers in the Scriptures is not praying or speaking unto God so the reading or singing of Psalmes I tooke to have beene a speaking to our selves a stirring vp of Gods graces in vs etc. But I do not now nor did not then hold it so in al Psalmes singing And where you say I purposelie left out the latter part in both places which was this Sing vnto God with a grace in your heartes the Lorde knowes I had no purpose to injurie the Scripture nor maintaine an vntruth But though wee might do those things with a grace to God in our heartes which were not properly and directlie a conversing by thought worde with him alone but one thing might have kept you from crying out heresie in that I added this that I would not stand vpon that reason but desired to knowe it furder But how vniustlie could you number this for an heresie mainteined of us al in your Epistle that we should denie that Psalmes should be songe vnto God The Lorde keepe me from such errour And a wofull phisition you are if I had bene in such an errour For the 102. Psalme I never denied but that it was a most excellent Psalme penned by Daniel or some other Prophet and given to the whole Church to be songe or read as other Psalmes in the forme of praier But you must prove that the Church did use it as you say to reade it over for praying or were commaunded so to doe This is proof enough they did not because it is a Psalme Now though the Ch. speake manie times in the singular number yet it is expressed in some other verse that it is so But now admit that you could prove that the psalmes were read insteade of or for invocation which you shall never be able to doe it doth not followe that mens writinges should be brought into the assemblies and read for praier The 6. of Numbers I have answered before From the 92. Psalme you reason thus If the psalmes and other formes of prayer in the scriptures were read or said by rote the verie forme of wordes for praying Then reading instead of or for praying Here you durst not set your assumption it was so false which should be thus But the Psalmes other formes of prayer were read for praying c. This I shewed you was verie untrue they were never commaunded so to be used nor never so used My proof was this they are given were by the holy Ghost for other uses as singing reading etc. and not commaunded anie where so to be used so that you do but cavil not having one proof for all your shameles assertions Now where I demaunded what this made for your Liturgies and reading mens writinges for praying except you would make your owne writinges of equall authoritie with the Scriptures You answere That if I denie the consequence it was lawfull to use the Psalmes therefore mens writings then I wil shut out all prayers even the praier of the Pastor See your carnall handling shufling and confounding Gods ordinances Doth it followe that because mens writinges may not be brought into the publique assemblies or there be read for praying therfore the praiers uttered by the lively voice of the Pastor should hereby be excluded this your shift was answered in the first Argument your cavils are stale you are againe convinced Touching the other matter of cunning phrases and formes of praier by roate to say over certeine number of wordes it is popish and a meere evasion and bewraieth your ignorance in prayer In this you have granted me that he which praieth not with a feeling of his present wants of his soul but saith over certaine number of wordes of custome or affectation he is an hiprocrite which is true proved Mat. 6.7 Now by this examine your dailie monethlie annuall etc. saying over nay reading over certeine wordes euery time the same as you are stinted It is plaine the sacrifice of fooles Ecclesiastes 4.17 The two pointes wherein you protest so willinglie to agree with me were these First whether only such praiers as were made without the book were accepted of Gods children Secondly whether the same spirit teacheth vs to pray that taught the holie men of God before time You grant both these but that you would seeme to alter the first question wel then Gods owne spirit that taught them to pray without a booke or stinting of wordes teacheth vs so to pray nowe in the action of praying giveth the mouth to utter what the heart desireth moved with the same spirit Still then after your long shifting to and fro I trust you wil stand to your first wordes that you never read in the Scriptures anie commaundement for reading of praiers Secondlie to say over certeine numbers of wordes or phrases of the Scripture of custome or affectation without feeling of or asking for our present wantes is hypocrisie Therefore I wil conclude as I beganne mine Argument standing good that To doe anie thing in the worship of God werof we have no warrant of Gods worde is sinne But read praiers have no warrant in Gods Word Ergo etc. The third Argument We may not in the worship of God receave any tradition which bringeth our libertie into bondage Read prayer upon commandement brought into the publique assemblies is a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bōdage Therefore read prayer c. The Minor is thus proved that God hath left it in all mens freedome to pray as the present occasion requireth and the spirit giveth utterance according to his will Againe no man hath power to commaunde anie thing in the worship of God which God hath not commaunded c. Marke 7.7.8.9 Math. 15. Gal. 5.1 c. GEORGE GIFFORD I say it is ungodlie and neere unto blasphemie to affirme that
prescript forme of prayer is a tradition bringing our libertie into hondage c. my reason was c is that the Lord by Moses prescribed a forme of blessing c. Num. 6 the Prophets in the Psalmes have prescribed manie formes of prayer Our Saviour Christ prescribed a forme of prayer c. JOHN GREENWODS Answer HEre is a greate storme yet nothing but wynde If you were in Caiphas his place you would either have rent your clothes for zeale or els condemne me before you vnderstand what I say Is it simple dealing do you thinke to say I hold it a bondage breaking our libertie for the Lord by Moses the Prophetes our Saviour Christ also to set downe a forme of praier or to prescribe a forme of praier Did you not see that the Minor Proposition speaketh of the reading for praing and not of the forme of praier Againe of the commandement wherby men are compelled to reade instead of praing Did you not see that these wordes brought into the publique assemblies did specifye the matter to be mens writings to be read in the assemblies as a worship yea invocation of Gods name which is a grosse mockery Not that ther is any Commandement to reade ouer those formes of praier mentioned by you for praing and so the Commandement so to reade them for praying is an abuse of them and a Commandement of men and not of God etc. But that much more odious it is to bring in mens writings into the publique assemblies is proved vnlawfull in the first argument and then to commit Idolatrie with them by reading them jnstead of praing and that to compell men by Commandement wher God had set no Commandement so to vse them was a bringing all men into bondage of popish traditions So that your common recitall of these places of Scripture is abuse of them and you do but palinodian cauere I thinke if you get St. I H O N S gospell about your necke as the Papists do you wil thinke you haue religion ynough The more fearfull is your Apostacy you proceede from euill to worse GEORGE GIFFORD About the Commaunding a prescript forme of prayer to be used our Church doth agree with all godly Churches yea the reformed Churches have and do practise the same here therefore I wish the reader to observe that you Brownists doe not only condemne the the Church of England but all the reformed Churches whatsoever and can be no other but Donatistes IOHN GREENWODS Answer I Trust your madnes will appeare to all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vayne Shall J in your heate be pressed with multitude of Churches then heare what the Lorde faith Thou shal not followe a multitude to do evill we have the word amongst vs we shall by that worde be either iustified or condemned Then either prove your matter from the scriptures or els give eare to the Scripture If those Churches you speake of bring mens writinges into the publique assemblies inforce them to be read for praying I would see their warrant we beleeve not because men say so or doe so but because God speaketh And where he speaketh all men must be silent You may accuse other countries as you wil knowe not their estate but your drudgery insteade of true worship is lothsome the priest with his massebooke the begger with his clapdish canuize over the Pater noster for their bellie which is your common worship with other trinckets We shal speake of a Liturgie in due place Here you breath out your accustomed lyes slanders railings First you terme us Brownists Donatists wheras I never conversed with the men nor their writings I dereft Donatus his heresies And if they had beene instruments to teach us anie truth we were not therfore to be named with their name we were baptised into Christs Browne is a member of your Church your brother and all Brownists do frequent your assemblies And here you wish the reader to consider that I condemne all reformed Churches do I condemne all Churches for reproving a sinne by Gods worde May not the true Churches if they were such err Did I affirme at anie time that they were no true Church that used read prayers remember your self you knowe who is the Father of such untruthes But because your Conscience bare witnesse you had wrongfully chardged me and in frome all true Christians you bring it in by necessary consequence thus you assi'me say you prescript formes of praier brought into the publique assemblies to be the changing the work of the Spirit into an idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie a deade letter quenching the Spirit c. and therefore most detestable But all reformed Churches receive and use it c. therefore You can reason well to bring the truth into contempt your moth is open and tongue whet as a sworde thereunto If the proposition be true drawe what consequence you will it is yours not mine if the doctrine be true it is Gods worde that giveth sentence against the sinne And if you have anie sparke of grace procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches Doth it follow that because imposing of mens writinges to be read for praying is an heynous sinne therefore they that use it are no Church If I should say so I should justlie be called an Anabaptist And here you accuse me to pleade for such a freedome in the Church that nothing receaued which is imposed by commaundement Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets Doth it follow that because we would have the Church free from all traditions of men which have no warrant in Gods worde that therefore we would not receave Gods ordinances by Commaundement That we ought to receave nothing by Commaundement in the worship of God which God hath not commaunded the second commaundement with the scriptures I have rehearsed are evident Deut. 5.32.33 Mat. 2 5.2.3 Gal. 4.9 Collof 2 20 But seing your self graueled considering all the world cannot lay a Commandement to bring their owne inventions into the assemblies wher God hath laide none but forbidden it you ranne to your former places of scripture to wrast them as before where your collections are but vaine repetions of that which hath been convinced before Moses the Prophets etc. prescribed formes of praiers therefore men now may thrust their writings into the publique assemblies Your Argument is denied and yet here is no warrant for the reading them over for praier G. GIFFORD The Church had power to expounde those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures to apply them to their severall necessities c. J. GREENWOOD If you meane by expounding the breaking of them up by doctrine vp and by doctrine and praier to applye them to the severall vses of the Church by lively voyce far be it from me to thinke otherwise But if you meane by expounding to make homilies vpon them or liturgies
the Sacraments The minister may conceive praier etc. Hold you to this that it is not of necessity you will denie it againe in the next Argument Wel here you graunt it is not of necessitie But you have not answered me tell me whether you hold it necessarie or no if it be at all times necessarie the Testament is not perfect Againe do you not hold it of necessitie when you excommunicate men depose your ministery for not observing it But you saye it is for conveniencie If it be a part of Gods worship and all times convenient then is it necessarie and if it be not necessarie put such conveniency in your corner Capp or surplus Nowe if it be necessarie at all times you must prove it is commanded in Gods worde or els say that all things necessarie in Gods worship be not conteyned in Gods worde which were blasphemous and papisticall to affirme To this you graunt all things necessarie and convenientare conteyned and aske if I be ignorant that ther be manie thinges conteyned in the Scriptures that are not expressed in particular but be gathered from the generall rules No I am not ignorant of this but if it may be gathered ether by expresse wordes or by generall rules that there should be prescript formes of praier for the administration of the Sacraments or anie other particular action of the Church then must it be so of necessitie because God hath commaunded it though not in particular yet in generall rules But you graunt it is not of necessity therfore it is not commaunded in particular nor conteyned in anie generall rule Yet you demaunde of me if one should obiect that ther were not commaundement in the scriptures nor example for anie prayers to be made at all before preaching etc. I would say he should lye against God we have both For the Apostle shewes it was the chief part of their office to continue in the worde and prayer Act. 6.4.1 Cor. 14. and 1. Tim. 2 1 Acts. 2.42 besides all things are sanctified vnto vs by the word praier And because they never vsed doctrine in the Ch. but praier wēt before therfore their meetings is said to be vnto praier some things ther are I graunt that are not prescribed in particular and yet are commaunded by general doctrine as baptisme of Infants But whatsoever is commaunded either in particular or necessary collections from generall rules are of necessitie to be obeyed as the commaundements of God and may not be altered but your particular forms of prescript wordes have no such warrant Nowe seing you would have no prescript wordes of prayer for the minister to vle before his preaching not of necessitie for the Sacraments have none for excommunication etc. I wondred wher of your Portuis is made wherto it should serve except for churchings and burialls and such popery wherby you leaue the commaundements of God to sett vp your owne traditions And here vpon I demaunded wherupon you would make your stinted and sett praiers You marueile I should be so babling and make such questions you meane about your babling worship You saye of the particulars of the Lordes praier I demaunde nowe againe whether you can number the starres of heavē or the sandes of the sea if not much lesse the particulars of the Lords praier There is medecine and direction of praier for every soule every disease therfore to be drawē fourth by doctrine parier as need requireth you would sett a liturgie vpon some thinges and compell men thervnto every meeting which were no thing els but to seale vp the fountaine and send men to the drye pitts of your execrable devises from the whole fountaine to a pitcher of water from the liuely graces of Doctrine and prayer to your owne writings Paul commaunded to pray for Kings and Princes yet bounde no man what wordes to vse The Lord give you repentance of such presumptuous sinne as to alter his worship If you cannot knowe the estate of the soule before hand you can make no formes of wordes for it The Eight Argument Read prayers were devised by Antichrist and maintaine superstition and an Idoll ministery therfore read prayers and such stinted service are intollerable c. G. GIFFORD Antichrist devised manie blasphemous wicked prayers But to say that the making or following a prescript forme of prayer was his is most false for there were Liturgies in the Church of olde before Antichrist was set in his throne c. J. GREENWOOD THe Scripture never inforced to reade praiers for praying nether stinted vs what or how manie wordes to vse nether is the formes of praier prescribed in the Scripture and devise of man Let vs then hold these two to be the matters in hand the one reading in steade of praying the other stinging and limiting by a written liturgie what howe many wordes to pray with all other such prescriptions as your liturgie conteyneth All may be affirmed antichristian which is not warranted by Christs worde Yet your liturgie is even from that Antichrist lifted vp into the throne you speake of as may by all men be seene that will compare it with the Portuis And as I have heard the Pope would have approved of your liturgie if it might have bene receaved in his name Nowe we have proved in the discourse before that reading for praying hath no warrant from Gods Worde which maketh them two severall and divers actions every where Here then we must consider something for an other liturgie then Christes Testament which we shall find to be nothing els then an other gospell And because Mr Gifford saith ther were liturgies in the Church before Antichrist was lifted vp into his throne which I will not denye I would have all men vnderstand that I do not go about to prove the church no church that hath a liturgie as mine Arguments are falslie wrested to that purpose but to prove the vnlawfullnes of such liturgie thrust vpon mens Consciences is onlie my determination through Gods assistance The worde liturgie signifieth publicum manus ergon Laon the worke of or for the people that is the very execution of the ministerial actions in the Church according to the worde of all the officers therof that is the practise of those ministeriall duties prescribed by Christ we may euery where reade Jn the first of the Gospell of Luke the 23. verse it is said And is came to passe that when the daies of his ministration were past he went home to his house meaning Zacharias where we see the worde Liturgie for his execution of his ministeriall function Now this Leitourgia of the newe Testament is even the rule and function prescribed by Christ for the puqlique actions to be donne in his Church which leiturgu of Christ is perfect and he pronounced accursed that addeth any thing therto or taken any there from yea al mē are bound to keep the true patterne therof without alterration
an old papish Argument to reason thus all Churches doe such a thing therfore it is lawfull except you hold with the Pope that the Church cannot erre which were blasphemous You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgie imposed upon it and because you have so often slandered me that I hold it so you take great paynes to conclude it I have said that to impose mens writings to be read in stead of praying is to worship God after a false maner that it is a devise of Antichrist a deade letter quenching the spirit not of faith Idolatrous changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll breaking our Christian libertye and so most detestable By these speaches I condemne all Churches say you this is not true I condemne but the sinne But you have sayd J deny that to be the Church that hath any thing imposed I say you speak an open untrueth and remember the judgment of him that inventeth and maketh lyes And God give you grace to repent if you belong to him The consideration of this our discourse I hartelie commendo to be dulie and uprightly wayed of all that feare God who graunt us his grace to forsake any sinne where it shal be shewed us by how weake instruments soever it be reproved and pardon me all my defaults in this my hastie answeare Thus have we seene the unlawfullnes of thrusting mens writings upon publique assemblies and reading instead of praying A generall Argument against their worship in respect of their present estate both of Ministers and people The Prayers of such ministers and people as stand under a false government are not acceptable not onely because they aske amisse but because they keepe not his Commaundements The prayers of such Ministers and people as be subject to Antichrist are abhominable Those Ministers and people which stand subject to the Bishops and their Courts are subject to Antichrist c. Therfore their prayers c. G. GIFFORD These do concerne the third and fourth accusation and therfore the answere is included in the answere to them Yet I take exception against the first that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundements touching externall governement and yet be the true Church of God I alleadged the Church that was holden captive in Babylon c. J. GREENWOOD HEre after your acustomed manner you offer me great wronge first insteade of answeare you alter the question very subtilie then you dismember my former answeare and not onely so but you have nether let my former answere be answered nor printed Thus you alter the question answere not where the proposition speaketh of a ministery people standing under a false government you say the church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundements in externall government wherof I never doubted what is this then but to deceave your Reader both to judge sinisterlie of me and be drawen from the truth himself But indeede you meane not this holden by force of civile bondage or persequution for then ther were no difference betweene us and mine Argument should stand untouched You affirme then that the Church may stand under a false government inforced therunto by the tyranny of the enemie and yet in that estate be the true apparant Church by open profession which is nothing els then that the Church may professe Christianisme and Antichristianisme both at a tyme subject in minde to Christ and subject to Antichrist in outwatde obedience That you hold this doctrine in this place the processe of your matter proveth and to make all plaine your wordes in the last writing which here you summe up were these But if the Church at any tyme be by mayne force restrayned from some priviledges or have some government set over it which agreeth not with Gods worde which it cannot avoid ct See now how smoothly this man hath put away the crosse of Christ by teaching men to stand under a government contrarie to Christes I thought the ordinances of the newe Testament had beene a kingdome that could not be shaken Heb. 12.28 that none could have beene a member of Christ that receaveth the marcke of the Beast though it be but in his hand or could be holden a member of Christ by outward profession that here had beene the patience of the Sanicts to suffer unto death rather then to bowe downe either in minde or bodie to an other government then Christs How is he a Lorde to them that are not governed by him Well I needed not to have stod upon this doctrine but that be nether printed my former answere nor answered in these pointes and myne owne copie taken from me by the Bishops so that this man may retract what he will accuse as please him if he have any common honestie let my former answeare be seene But to prove the Church may be subject to an other government then Christs which is even to say that a man may give all alleageance by outward practise to the Kinge of Spaine and yet be her Majest. true subject He saith the Church was holden captive in Babylon where he as cunningly hideth himself as before though in my last writing I urged him to answere whether the Church in Babylon was subject to their Idolatrie or no To the civile power I doubt not they were But if the Priestes and Levites stood Priests to the Idolatrous worship in Babylon whether the people of Israel bowed downe to the outward practise and obedience of their Idolatrie or no then if they did so whether they stoode by profession the children of God or apostate in that estate None of these thinges have you answeared me Let the examples of Hanania Mishaell and Azaria testifie Dan: 3. The people that retourned repented their transgressions wher they had any of them sinned and made a new covenant with the Lorde before they were receaved Ezia 9.14.15 and 10. cap. 2.3.8 Yea the voyce of God was this come out of her my people and touche no uncleane thing and I willbe your God We are before thee saith Ezra in our trespasse we cannot stand before thee because of it You never renounced your Antichristian ministerie you never made a new covenant since the deepe defection of Poperye but still minister in that kingdome and wil not repent yet boast your selves to be the Church of God cryinge out the Temple the Temple I answeare then directlie that whiles you stand subject unto and practise and communicate with other orders and governments then Christes you are not by outwarde profession the churches of Christ I may not with you omitt the worde willfull because you persequute the light so much higher is your sinne Here I must forewarne the Reader with diligence to consider Mr. Giffords disagreement and mine he having accused me of a fundamentall heresie as he callet hit wheras he himself maintayneth most grosse errors wherof J reproved
him yet he persisteth Namely that the regenerate man may be said to stand in bondage to sinne by reason of the corruption of the fleshe that is in us and of our unperfectnes in this life Then that one standing in outward bondage to open knowen sinne may in that estate be accompted and communicated with as the servant of Christ by outward profession both at one instant which is as much to say we may be to mans sight the servant of the Devill and the servant of Christ both at one tyme by outward profession so none should be excommunicate none be without the world and the church light and darknes Christ and Belial should be mingled togeather These heresies wherof he most unjustly and untruly proclaymeth to be mainteyned by us is that the regenerate man consenteth not to sinne after regeneratiō although in the last writinge I testified the contrary Namely that the whole church might erre might committ some kinde of Idolatrie that no man was free from committing sinne etc And now I testifie to all the world that I was never infected with anie such Anabaptistery but have everie where resisted such damnable heresie I have learned and taught manie degrees of sinne and differences of transgressions which the deare children of God fall into after regeneration in thought word and deed of ignorance of knowledge of presumption slippes transgressions and obstinate sinne Yea that ther is no sinne except the sinne against the holy Ghost but Gods children may commit it after regeneration and be renued by repentance which we ought to pray for in all sinners but that one sinne except Not that men should here upon take boldnes to sinne because God giveth repentance to his elect wherin the riches of his mercy appeareth but rather serve him in trembling and feare as a jealous God least with Esaw we find no place to repentance though we seeke it with teares Againe though in Gods sight his elected are never forsaken utterlie nor the Holy Ghost utterly extinguished in the repentance yet to mans jndgement he that committeth open knowen sinne and persisteth obstinately in the same cannot be held the child of God to us by outward profession but must be cutt of Numbers 15.27.31 Matt. 18.17 and 1 Cor. 5. till they repent Much more none that stand open professed members of the false Church subject by the least outward bowing downe to this antichristian Hierarchie and so continuing in bondage to a false government can be holden of us be true professors of Christs Gospel Now let us peruse the several doctrines Mr Gifford affirmeth that the true Church might stand in bondage to a false government yet in that estate be helde communicated with as the true Church by outward profession his wordes in waye of proof be these They may with St. Paule say It is no longer I that doe it but sinne that dwelleth in me for if the yoake wherwith he was held captive in part could not sake from him but that he was the Lordes free servant it is no reason that some outwarde bondage should make the Church not to be the spouse of Christ If a man commaund his wife saith he to do a thinge and ther be violent force to withold her shee is not to be blamed Rom. 7. Mine answere to this he durst not print but perverted my wordes so manie as pleaseth him nether can I yet come by a copie of my former writing to shew what I then replyed Now consider what government is and what bondage is and then behold the wickednes of this man Spiritual government is that soueraigntie Dominion and regiment that Christ Iesus by his spirit lawes ordinances and officers exerciseth in and over his church as it is written And thou Bethlehem Iuda art not the least among the Princes of Iuda for out of thee shall come a governour that shall governe my people Israell againe thy Scepter is an everlasting Scepter I have set my king vpon Syon my Holy mountaine Mat. 26. Psal. 3. and 45 and 110 these lawes and ordinances wherby this kinge raigneth are caled a kingdome that cannot be shaken Heb. 12.28 they that have not him to reigne over them are by outward profession none of his If I be your Lord where is my honour againe those myne enimies which would not that I should reigne over them bring hither and stay them before me Luke 19.27 Also bondage or servitude is to be commaundement and to yeild obedience in subiection Now to be in outward bondage to an other outward government other lawes officers and ordinances then Christs is to be by outward subiection servants of Antichrist which hath another foundation for by outward profession we cannot stand to mans iudgement professed subiects to two kings at enmitye But we must be an enmity to the one and so esteemed of all men much lesse members vnto two divers heades This then is mine answere here 1. That it is an heresie to say a man may stand in bondage to open knowen sinne and the free seruaunt of Christ by outward profession both at one instant 2 That it is a falsifying of the Scripture to say that St. Paul in the 9. to the Romanes was in bondage to sinne when he in the inner man resisted sinne and daylie preuailed against the sinne which his flesh would have led him captiue in if there had not beene a stronger power to overcome that enimie For he ther reasoueth of the benefits of the law to manifest our sinne and our conquest over sinne by daylie repentance and reproving of sinne in our selves fighting against sinne in our selves and labour to have victory over sinne though it continuallie rebell 3. How blasphemous were it to contynue in knowen sinne in bondage to it and to say it is sinne that dwelleth in vs and not we and so still to blesse our selves without amendement O horrible peruertinge of the Scriptures to mens distruction 2. Pet. 3.16.4 That ther is no Argument to be drawen nor consequence to followe from the reliques of sinne and corruption of the fleshe in one man or the whole Church and a professed bondage to all false government no not betweene the open committing of sinne in the whole Church or some members therof and a professed homage and subiection vnto false government we cannot be partaken be partakers with the false Church state at no hand 1. Cor. 10.21.5 Lastlie that the subiection to an other government is as a wife that committeth adulterie Hosea 2. I then reason thus on the contrary with you Any man that after regeneration committeth open knowen sinne and contynueth obstiuate as a bond servaunt ther vnto standeth not the professed servaunt of Christ but of sinne Ezechiel 18. till he repent so the whole Church that persisteth in the open knowen sinne and persequuteth the messengers that reprove the same They as everie member of the false Church standeth a professed servaunt of sinne so the whole assemblies that stand