that they grant savours to those that pray unto them S. Augustine will tell you plainly in his 15. and 16. chap. de cur pro. mort babâ—nd Thus is Invocarion of Scints vindicated both from repugnancy to Scripture and novelty I come now to the fourth and last fond Doctrine wherewith the Church of Rome stands charg'd which is Adoration of Images 44. For the better clearing the Church from this charge I thought it necessary to declare the Doctrine of the Catholique Church concerning Images which is this The Images of Christ of the Mother of God and other Saints may be had and kept and due honour and reverence is to be given unto them aâ— appeares by the Profession of Faith compos'd and authoriz'd by the Councel of Trent Where are the plain words of Scripture to which this Doctriue is repugnant Where is it said in Scripture in plain and express words Thou shalt not give any worship honor or reuerence to the Images of Christ or of his Mother or of other Saints The Scripture in divers places forbids Divine worship to be given to Idols or false Gods as Exod. 20. Levit. 26. Deut. 5. Isay 40. c. but where is it said Thou shalt not worship honor or reverence the holy Images of Christ or of his Saints Those Texes of Scripture forbid only that the worship due to God should be given to creatures Idols or false Gods where then is the repugnancy between the Doctrine of the Church of Rome and plain words of Scripture The Scripture forbids Idolatry so does and ever did the Church of Rome The Scripture forbids Divine worship to be given to any thing but God so does the Church of Rome God forbids Graven Images that is Idols to be set up and adored with Divine worship and the Church of Rome commands due honor and reverence to be given to holy Images of Christ and his Saints I must again demand where is the repugnancy between this Doctrine of the Church of Rome and the plain words of Scripture If you say that those words Ex 20. Thou shalt not make to thy self any graven Image c. Thou shalt not fall downe and worship it are plain against this Doctrine I will confess that they are as plain against it as any words of Scripture either of the Old or New Testament but if you argue from these words as many of your Sect have done that therefore it is not lawfull to honor or reverence the holy Images of Christ and his Saints here is then a double fallacy A dicto secundum quod ad dictum simpliciter For neither are all Images but only Idols nor all worship but only Divine worship forbidden in those words I may as well conclude that because it is said in Scripture God only is to be worshipt therefore we must not worship Kings Princes and Magistrates But good Doctor as there is a Divine worship due to God and to him only so there is a civil worship due to Kings Princes and Magistrates and another sort of worship due to Angels and Saints and so likewise there is a reverence and honor due to the holy Images of Christ and his Saints not a divine or absolute but a certain far inferiour worship and meerly relative Is it a greater sin in me to adore Christ in or before his image then it was in Iacob to adore Ioseph in his Rod or Sccpter S. Paul sayes Heb. 11. 21. that Iacob adored the top of Iosephs Rod wherein saith S. Chrisost Hom. 66. and Theodoret q. 108. in Gen. Iosephs dream was fulfilled viz. That his Father should worship him From Iacob under the Old let us come to the Fathers under the New Testament You have already heard S. Basil Epist. ad Iulian 205. publikely professing that he adored the Images of the holy Apostles Prophets and Martyrs and that this kind of Adoration of Images was an Apostolical Tradition You have heard what S. Cyril of A. lexandria delivered in his Homily before the Councel of Ephesus the third General Councel where himself was President under Pope Celestine it will not be impertinent to repeat his words Hail Mary mother of God by whom the precious Cross is reverenc't and adored throughout the whole world Here is the Image of the Holy Cross adored throughout the whole world according to S Cyril in relation to him that died on it and it is more then probable that the whole Church then represented in that Councel did practise that Adoration otherwise doubtless the Councel would have declar'd their dissent from S. Cyril and their dislike of his expression And now can any reasonable man imagine that those holy and learned Fathers S. Basil S. Cyril and S. Chrysostome Theodoret should maintain and the whole Councel of Ephesus approve of a Doctrine or practise repugnant to plain words of Scripture Besides it is not as lawful to adore the Images as the Reliques of Saints and is it not known to all the world with what holy zeale and bitterness S. Hierome inveigh's against Vigilantius for opposing and condemning that practise Does he not charge Vigilantius with Blasphemy for speaking against the Adoration of sacred Reliques Has not God by many apparent Miracles approv'd this holy practise August de Civit. Dei lib. 22. c. 8. Tho testimonies that might be brought â—o confirm this Doctrine would swell to a large volume I will only add this that in the time of the second General Councel it was a custome to adorn Churches with Images as appears by S. Gregory Naziâ—nzen Epist 49. ad Olympium who sate in that Councel as also by this testimony out of Eusebius who sate in the first General Councel of Nice held about the year of Christ 325. that in his time and long before Images of Christ and his Apostles were made and adored Hist Eccles li. 7. c. 14. his words are these Et nos Apostolorum ipsius Christi imagines Pauli Petri ipsius etiam Christi vidimus per colores in picturis conservatâ—s antiquis ut par est immutabiliter solitis hoc modo honorare c. We also have seen the Images of Christs Apostles Paul and Peter as also of Christ himself preserv'd in Pictures by colours our Ancestors being wont as it is fit to honor them after this manner I pass by the authority of S. Gregory who very learnedly and copiously defends this Doctrine li. 9. Epist 9. of Leontius S. Gregories Coâ—tanean Bishop of Neapolis in Cyprus who purposely wrote in defence of this Doctrine As also of the second General Councel of Nice which defin'd and declar'd this Doctrine to be an Apostolical Tradition condemning and anathematizing the Iconoclasts or Image-breakers as Heretiques I omit also the present practise of the pretended Greek Church which you may plainly read in Iâ—remias Patriarch of Constantinople Cersura Orient Eccles c. 21. where he maintains and vindicates this Doctrine of honoring and reverencing Images from superstition and Idolatry against
over all the parts of the Christian world and as being the great Metropolitan of the world infuses unity into all particular Churches and Christians She is in this her largest amplitude properly and truly call'd the Catholique Church And because the Catholique Church cannot fall into any error in faith or any other damnable error whatsoever nor teach Doctrines superstitious sacrilegious or repugnant to plain words of Scripture because she is and ever shall be guided by Gods Holy Spirit which hitherto has and ever shall lead her into all truth therefore it cannot be truly said that the Roman Church being this Catholique Church ever was or can be guilty of errors in faith or of superstitious sacrilegious or any damnable Doctrines whatsoever 73. Besides when Luther first for sook the communion of the Roman Church did he not stand alone was he not divided from the world even from those that were not in communion with the Church of Rome as well as from those that were did he communicate in the Sacraments or external worship with any particular Church Congregation People Nation or Sect professing the name of Christ can any man separate himself from that church in whose communion he once liv'd whose Faith and Doctrine he imbrac't and joyn himself to no other congregation in the whole world professing the name of Christ either in doctrine or external communion and yet be no Schismatique If so then there never was or can be any Schism If then Luther was Schismatical in being divided from the Whole Christian world in Faith and communion it necessarily follows that all those who first adhered to him forsaking the communion of that church whereof they had formerly been members and all those who have since followed Luther and have not joyn'd themselves to any church or Christian Congregation whatsoever besides themselves must be guilty of the same Schism How then is it possible for you to avoid the guilt of Schism since you have forsaken the communion of the Church of Rome with whom you once communicated as you confess Sect. 19. and have not joyn'd your selves to any other Christian Congregation whatsoever You abhor the communion of the Roman Church and that which you call the Greek Church abhors you Will you say that the Protestants are the whole Catholique Church then you contradict your self who grant Sect. 12. that Rome her self is a Church a member of the one Catholique You must also then confess that the Greek Church as you call it is no part of the Catholique Church and the truth is you have good reason so to do since she refused to receive you into her communioâ— abhorring and detesting your new Doctrines as heretical If then all those of the Protestant Sect be Schismatical as it most plainly appears they are certainly the Protestants of England must necessarily be involv'd in the same Schism 74. Let us now see how you can vindicate your selves from heresie I will not look beyond those four Doctrines wherewith you have charg'd the Church of Rome as being fond sacrilegious and repugnant to plain words of Scripture viz. Transubstantiation Administration of the B. Sacrament to the Laity in one kind Invocation of Saints Adoration of Images And by your opposing these doctrines as they are held and taught by the Roman Church I shall endeavour to make it appear to the world that you cannot avoid the just imputation of Heresie First then I demand whether the Fathers assembled in the four first General Councels were not competent and lawful Judges of the heresies of those times as the Arrian Macedonian Nestorian Eutychian c. and whether they had not power to condemn those heresies and to anathematize those that held and taught them as heretiques If they had no such power then did they most injuriously and tyrannically usurp a power and Jurisdiction which of right belonged not unto them But this cannot be prudently suppos'd that so many holy reverend and learned Fathers should usurp an authority or arrogate to themselves that power which was not lawfully deriv'd upon them by Christ and his holy church They were the selected Pastors of the whole church men renowned for their piety and learning and could not therefore be ignorant how far the Jurisdiction and authority of a lawful Councel might extend neither would their piety suffer them to transgress the limits of that authority If then those four first Councels had power to judg of and to declaâ—e and define doctrines of faith and to anathematize all those that should oppose them how came the Councels in succeeeding ages to be depriv'd of this power How came the church to lose that authority wherewith she was once invested was her power but temporary and after some few ages to expire or did Christ foresee thaâ— after some few ages his church would be no more infested with Schismatiques or heretiques but we plainly find that such have molested the church in all ages and therefore doubtless in all ages has this power continued in the church and if so why was it not as lawful for the second Councel of Nice which was held above 800. years since to judg and define what reverence and honor is due to holy Images and to condemn the Iconoclasts or Image-breakers as it was for the former Councels to condemn the Arrians Nestorians c And why was it not as lawful for that great and glorious Councel of Lateran wherein were present both the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Hierusalem to judg of and declare the true real and substantial conversion of the creatures of bread and wine after consecration into the true and real body and bloud of Christ and to declare the manner of that conversion as also to express the antient doctrine of the church by the proper signification of a new word Transubstantiation as it was for the first General Councel of Nice to judg of and declare Christs consubstantiality with the Father and to invent that new word to express the antient doctrine descending unto them by universal and in fallible Tradition of Christs co-eternal and co-equal Divinity with the Father You wil find in Vincentius Lyrinesis c. 32. that it was no new thing in his time for the church to invent new words to express old doctrines Why was it not lawful for the Councel of Constance Sess 13. to define and declare the indifferency and sufficiency of communicating the Laity under one kind only and to anathematize those that should pertinatiously oppose that doctrine Lastly why was it not lawful for the Councel of Trent Sess 25. to declare the lawfulness of invocating the blessed Saints and to denounce a curse against all obstinate opposers thereof Thus you see those four fond and sacrilegious doctrines and such as you say are repugnant to plain words of Scripture confirm'd declar'd and defin'd to be sacred truths and Apostolical Traditions by four General Councels You have also seen them held and practis'd by the antient Fathers that
liv'd within the first 500. years of Christianity Sect. 35. 36. 37. 38. c. what can you say for your selves what can you plead for your selves that you who deny the Doctrines of the church should not incur the penalty of the curse 75. You will say perchance that these are not Doctrines and Declarations of the whole Church Catholique but of the Church of Rome only and those in communion with her which you say is but part of the Catholike Church But this wil not now serve your turn whether the Church of Rome and those in communion with her be a part only of the Catholike Church or the whole Catholike Church it self as I have sufficiently prov'd it is it matters not you cannot be excus'd from heresie For when Luther was a Fryer before he set himself against the church what church what congregation of Christians what Nation what people nay what man was there in the whole world professing the name of Christ that denied or opposed those or any one of those forementioned Doctrines These were doctrines receiv'd imbrac't and publikely profest by the whole Christian world Not the Church of Rome and those in communion with her only but those also that were out of her communion as the whole pretended Greek Church receiv'd and profest these doctrines in their universal publike and daily practise as appears by Jeremias Patriarch of Constantinople in his sententia desinitiva de doctrina Religione Wittenberg en sium Protestantiâ—m as also in his Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae where you shall find a detestation of your opposite doctrines 76. But if those doctrineâ— be fond sacrilegious and repugnant to plain words of Scripture where was the church that pillar and ground of truth when the whole Christian world before Luthers apostasie receiv'd held and maintain'd them and if those that shall thus separate themselves from and oppose the whole church in doctrines of faith receiv'd by the whole church as such and acknowledg'd by her to be of universal and Apostolical tradition be not heretiques there never was neither is it possible that there ever should be any heretique in the world And yet yours was no separation but a reformatson But what can be invented more absurd or ridiculous then that one single apostate in Germany or a few avaricious and flattering Courtiers in England should first forsake the communion of that church wherein they had liv'd from their Baptism and wherein all their forefathers for almost 1000. years liv'd and died and afterwards renounce doctrines of Faith universally receiv'd by the church and then take upon them to be Judges of the whole church which Christ has made the Supreme Judg of all controversies and to reform the whole church and that in matters of doctrine but you must know Doctor that the Catholique Church cannot teach or maintain sacrilegious doctrines or such as are repugnaut to plain words of Scripture For then she would cease to be holy and consequently to be a church holiness being essential to Gods church as appeares both by the Nicene and Apostles Creed If then the church should obtrude upon the world sacrilegious and idolatrous doctrines and such as are repugnant to plain words of Scripture instead of sacred and divine truths she could not possibly be holy Since then the whole Christian world when Luther was a Fryer taught and maintain'd those four foremention'd Doctrines which you are pleas'd to stile sacrilegious and repugnans to plain words of Scripture it must necessarily follow that either at that time God had no church at all which your self confess to be impossible or â—ls that those doctrines are not sacrilegious or repugnant to plain words of Scripture but sacred and Apostolical truths and if so what are those that oppose and contradiet them 77. Hence it appears how false that is which you say Sect. 32. That you communicate with the Church of Rome in necessaries in Faith Hope and Charity c. since you oppose her in doctrines of Faith and by your schisme a sin directly against Charity have cut your selves off from her communion With what face then can you say Sect. 34. That you abhor not mutual communion with her in divine worship Do you not abhor to communicate with her in the Sacraments Do you not call her adoration of Christ in the B. Sacrament Idolatry And whereas you say there that you cannot endure that divine worship be given to any other then to the B. Trinity I would have you know that the Church of Rome gives not divive worship to any thing but God and if you will say that she does you will but proove your self very malicious or very ignorant 78. In your 35 Sect. I find nothing but what is either impertinent or already answered 79. In the next Sect. I meet with a bold challenge I challenge saies the Doctor the most able of your faction to shew me any one passage in our Common-Prayer Book that is not Catholique Answ If your Book of Common-Prayer be Catholique yet you have no great reason to boast of it you may thank the Church of Rome for it from whom you borrowed it which you know Doctor was the principal reason why those of the Puritan faction refus'd and abhor'd your Book of Common-Prayer as being Popish and super stitious But if all in that Book be Catholique it is rather an argument that the Church of Rome is Catholique from whence you took it then that you are so For all in that Book may be Catholique yet you may be Heretical You may oppose as you do other doctrines of Faith that are not contained in nor deducible from your Book of Common Prayer And if about the beginning of your defection some Catholiques frequented your Service it was because they esteemed it devout and pious as being all taken out of the Office and Missale of the Church of Rome They had not fully considered nor yet cleerly apprehended the unlawfulness thereof Wherefore it behoved the common Pastor of Gods Church to put them in mind how impious and sacrilegious it was for Catholiques to communicate with those who were guilty both of Schism and Heresie in divine Service 80. And whereas you alledg S. Paul to prove that in meats and matters of indifferency we are not to judge one another you must know Doctor that Doctrines of faith such as are Declarations and definitions of Generall Councells the lawes and Canons of the Vniversall Church made and generally receiv'd by the Church as the ancient Canons concerning Festivalls and Fasts are not matters of indifferency and cannot be violated without schism or Heresie 81. But I wonder with what face you can call your Congregation the Mother-Church of Catholiques Sect. 39. 'T is you that have forsaken your Mother-Church that Church wherein all your fore-fathers liv'd and died for about 1000. yeares together you confesse that once you communicated with the Church of Rome and that since you have forsaken her communion
Is it fit that the Church of Rome whom you have forsaken should stoop to you Is she bound to follow you that have forsaken her who made you Judges of Gods Church that you should take upon you to charge the whole Church of Rome with errours both in faith and manners by what rule have you done this you pretend Sect. 37. to walke by a sure rule but I am sure you walke not according to the rule of Christ's Catholique Church For she walks according to the rule of Gods Word interpreted by universall and Apostolicall tradition which you contemne and laugh at but you by the rule of Scripture interpreted by your own private fancies and deceiptfull imaginations 82. Now the Doctor begins to quarrel with the Language of the Church of Rome How do they saith he pray with the people who pray in a tongue the people understand not Answ And why may not Preist and people joyne in heart to God in prayer though the language of the Churches prayers be not understood by all present S. Paul confesses 1. Cor. 14. 14. that a man may pray in spirit in an unknowne tongue though not with his understanding The Priest and people of the Jewes could joyne together in prayer and prayers to God before Christ though their Service were perform'd in the Hebrew Tongue a language no more then understood by the vulgar Jewes then the Latin is now by the vulgar Christians why then may not the Christian Preist and people joyne together in prayer though the church Service be perform'd in a language which some of the vulgar Christians that are present understand not The Hebrew Greek and Latin Tongues wherein only the church Service has been perform'd throughout the whole Christian world ever since the time of the Apostles are languages well knowne to the world all men may learne them They are not such unknowne languages as those were which S. Paul speaks of 1. Cor. 14. which were miraculously infus'd into many of the Primitive Christians the end whereof was the edification of the church and the conversion of Infidells Now those tongues were neither understood by the people nor alwaies by those that spake them as appeares 1. Cor. 12. and 1. Cor. 14. 13. These languages miraculously infus'd by God the Primitive Christians used in their publique meetings first to instruct the ignorant secondly to convert Infidells where their instructions and prayers were alwayes extemporary according as they were immediately assisted by Gods holy Spirit But the publique prayers of the church are not in such unknowne languages Secondly they are said in the same languages wherein the publique Service of the church was ever performed in all ages since the Apostles as appeares by the antient Hebrew Greek and Latin Missales which is an argument unanswerable that such languages are not against S. Pauls Doctrine 1. Cor. 14. nor any other place of Gods Word Thirdly the end of our present publique meetings in the church is not to instruct edifie or convert as those meetings were whereof S. Paul speakes in that chapter but to offer up to God the tribute of prayer and praises that is due unto him as also to draw downe Gods blessings both spirituall and temporall upon the people And to this end the people joyne with the Priest in their exteriour acts of devotion and Religion thereby professing their assent to the publique prayers and praises of the Church And can it be thought necessary for those ends that all the people present should expresly understand every word of the Churches Service which though it were in the vulgar language of every Nation would notwithstanding be impossible 83. Between the Eastern and Western Churches you say Sect. 40. there were many differences c. and yet for all these they grew up together comfortably and continued in the same body Answ When the differences between the Eastern and Western Churches were concerning such Doctrines as were not declar'd in any Generall Councell nor could appeare by the universall tradition or practise of the Church they were then only errours not heresies but when any of the Easterne Churches opposed the Western in such Doctrines as appear'd either in the practise of the Church or by universall tradition and consent of Nations or were declar'd and defin'd in a Generall Councell they then fell from errour into heresie and were thereby cut off from the Catholique Church Your 41. Sect. is answer'd Sect. 29. and Sect. 65. and Sect. 30. 84. In your 42. Sect. you say That the keyes were given to all the Apostles alike Answ This I confesse in some sense may be true but makes nothing for you That all the Apostles had the keyes of remitting and retaining sins is true I can grant also that they were all universall Bishops yet they had not all equally the keyes of externall government and Jurisdiction S. Iohn at Ephesus had not that power which S. Peter had at Antioch or afterwards at Rome For whatsoever S. Peter was he had a Jurisdiction over the rest of the Apostles as well as the whole Church besides which S. John never had Your 43. Sect. has been already fully answer'd Sect. 58. In your 44. Sect. you say out of S. Paul to Timothy 2. Timoth. 3 15. That the Scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation and that you are resolved by Gods grace to accept of nothing but what is deduced from thence or proved thereby according to the interpretation of the ancient Fathers and Councells That of S. Paul I confesse and withall very glad that you have made so good a resolution If you shall constantly persist therein and shall receive no interpretation of Scripture but from the ancient Fathers Councells and the tradition of the Church as Vincentius Lyrinensis advises you ch 1â— you will soone become Roman Catholiques Your 45. and last Sect. containes nothing but what has been by you said before and by me sufficiently answer'd Sect. 18. and. Sect. 21. 29. c. I have done with your Answer and now crave leave to speake somewhat to you by way of exhortation in the Spirit of meeknesse You have hitherto been a guide to others let not a vaine feare or apprehension of any dishonour that may eclipse your former reputation by confessing your errours and that you have been a blind leader of the blind come between you and your eternall Salvation Let not the deceitfull lustre of vaine glory tempt you to pâ—eserve your credit in the world with the losse of Heaven You owe God your reputation as well as your life or whatsoever else is most deare unto you consider at how deare a rate Christ purchas'd the Redemption of your Soul destroy not then that soul for which Chrict died Let not pride prejudice or or malice cast a mist before the eyes of your understanding and you shall soone behold that light which will infallibly guide you to your last end God and the eternall friution of the Beatificall
question'd But denies that this doctrine of your 19. Article can consist with your opinion who hold that the Church of Rome is a true Church a member of the Church Catholique though according to divers of your Articles cited by Mr. T. B. n. 3. She neither preaches the pure Word of God nor duly administers the Sacraments no not in all those things that of necessity are requisite for the same For how can that be essentially a part of the Catholique Church which observes not that which is essentiall to the Catholique Church as is the preaching of the pure Word of God and the due administration of the Sacraments according to that definition of the Church in your 19. Article Besides how can you vindicate that Church from heresie that for Doctrines of Faith necessary to salvation teaches blasphemous fables Art 31. Or that Sacrilegiously robs the Laity of Christ's bloud with which you charge the Church of Rome Sect. 11. of your first Answer Or that maintaines Doctrines repugnant to plaine words of Scripture Sect. 24. ib. Or that erres in Doctrine of faith as you tax the Church of Romeâ— Sect. 14. of your second Answer Or that gives divine worship to Images and Reliques wherewith you charge the Church of Rome Sect. 34. ib. Can any Church be blasphemous sacrilegious idolatrous repugnant in her Doctrines to plaine words of Scripture erroneus in Doctrines of Faith and yet not be heretical but continue still essentially a true Church But because you are pleas'd to extend your Charity beyond Reason towards the Church of Rome I will not quarrell with you about it onely I must take notice of the Argument which you bring to prove it God say you blames the Church of Pergamos for enduring the seat of Satan within her Diocesse as also for holding that â—didous Doctrine of the Nicolaitans and yet grants her to be a Church Answ Herein you are much mistaken Doctor for God blames not the Church but the Angell of the Church of Pergamos which by many Catholique Expositors both Ancient and Moderne as also by divers of your owne Sect and Religion is interpreted The bishop of the Church If the Church of Pergamos had held the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans She had bin Hereticall and consequently no Church but it was the Bishop not the Church that was hereticall And if God may charge the Bishop of the Church of Pergamos with Heresie and yet grant Pergamos to be a true Church why may not the Church of Rome continue a true Church though the Bishop thereof fall into heresie 60. your taking the Church of Rome for maiming the blessed Sacrament Sect. 13. has been fully answer'd already Sect. 18. 19. and. Sect. 41. 61. But the Doctor is very hot in proving that the Church must erre with her Bishop and therefore the Church of Rome was no Church when her Bishops were hereticall Such as the Bishop is saies he such is the Church presumed to be Answ I know none but Dr. Boughen that was ever guilty of so silly a Presumption But S. Cyprians Authority is urg'd to prove it who sayes that as the Bishop is in the Church so is the Church in the Bishop I consesse I find in S. Cyprian Epist lib. 4. Ep. 9. these words Christiani sunt Ecclesiae plebs Sacerdoti adunata Pastori suo grex adhaerens unde scire debes Episcopum in Ecclesia esse Ecclesiam in Episcopo Christians are a Church and Common people united to the Preist and a Flock adhering to its Pastor whence you must know that the Bishop is in the Church and the Church in the Bishop What is all this to the purpose The Bishop is in the Church as a King is in his Kingdome or a Generall in his Army and the Church likewise is in the Bishop not formally but communicativè all the particular members thereof being in communion with the Bishop as their Head And this is all that can be gather'd from those words of the Father Since then the Church cannot be Formally in the Bishop but onely by way of communion subjection government or Discipline why may not the Church be Catholique though the Bishop be Hereticall But from this false ground the Doctor will prosecute his old fallacy and will still be endeavouring to prove that the Church of Rome could not be Catholique when the Bishops thereof were heretiques Sect 19. All Heretiques sayes he while such both themselves and all that side with them are secluded from Ecclesiastical communion every way But divers Popes were Heretiques or Schismatiques therefore the Church of Rome while her Bishops were heretical was in an ill case Answ Is not this a sine conclusion from those Premises what form or consequence is this here of a Syllogism And if the conclusion did follow out of those Premises what were this to the purpose The Church may be in an ill case when the Bishop is in heresie yet not Hereticall But behold another argument to prove the Church of Rome not Catholique When all Episcopal Acts were voyd the Church could not possibly be Catholike But when the Bishops were Heretiques all Episcopall Acts were void therefore the Church could not possibly be Catholique Answ This consequence is much like the other All the Acts of Heretical Bishops are void therefore the Church cannot possibly be Catholique as if the Faith of the Church depended on the Acts of the Bishop But a confirmation thereof is brought from S. Hilaries testimony who professeth as you say That in these Western parts there was in his time no Christian communion but in France Answ You do well to put those words in these Western parts in a parenthesis for they are yours not S. Hilaries as may appear by his words by you cited Sect. 23. where those words caeteris extra Gallias may comprehend the Eastern as well as the Western Churches And if you read Ecclesiastical Histories you shall find that in S. Hilaries time the Eastern Churches were far more infected with Arrianism then the Western 62. Besides you may remember Doctor that in the beginning of this second answer you confest that in S. Hilaries time at that very time when Rome as you falsly say was Arrian Sardinia was a Catholique and Orthodox Church How can that agree with this which you here endeavour to prove out of S. Hilary Was not Sardinia part of the Western Church How then could all the Western parts be excluded from Christian communion besides France when Sardinia which is in these Western parts was as your self confess a Catholique and Orthodox Church How can these two possibly consist together It seems you have forgot your self Oportet mendacem esse memorem 60. After all the other Popes Faelix is brought in for communicating with Arrians and Socrates and Zozomen are alledged to prove that therefore Rome it self was then accounted Arrian What then says Socrates that Liberius was banish't for his constancy in defending the Catholique Faith