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A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

A GODLY TREATISE containing and deciding certaine questions mooued of late in London and other places touching the Ministerie Sacraments and Church Whereunto one Proposition more is added After the ende of this Booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against And a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. PENRIES last Treatise Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie Ephes 4. verse 15. Let vs follow the trueth in loue and in all things grow vp into him which is the head that is Christ c. Imprinted at London by G. B. Deputie to Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie 1588. ¶ To the Reader TWo sortes of Recusantes are in this land the one Popish the other Anabaptisticall They giue out that wee haue no ministery no Sacraments no visible Church These men labour of two diseases the one is great pride the other grosse ignorance Their pride appeares in their behauiour which is voide of humilitie their ignorance in their Arguments which hang together like a sicke mans dreame That her Maiestie may and ought to compell these Recusants to frequent our Church assemblies I make no question There is an other sorte which either deny or doubt whether vnpreaching ministers doe deliuer a Sacrament vpon better aduise some of them confesse that ignorant ministers doe administer a Sacrament but they adde this that such as receiue any Sacrament at their hands doe sinne grossely and pollute thēselues I will hope well of these men for they erre onely for want of iudgement The holy Sacrament is one thing the ministers ignorance is an other thing the Lordes Sacrament brings singuler comfort to the worthie receiuer the ministers ignorance can neither peruert the Sacrament nor pollute the receiuer The Donatistes taught otherwise in the former time and the Anabaptistes in our time but they are notably confuted by two famous men Augustine and Caluine What account I make of ignorant ministers appeareth in this treatise It pleased God to direct my heart and penne in this holy labour therefore I assure my selfe of his gracious blessing London Maij. 6. 1588. R. S. A Table of such points as are conteiin this Treatise 1 A Godly Prince may and ought to compell his subiects if any refuse to the externall Seruice of God 2 A godly Prince may not suffer any Religion but the true Religion either publiquely or priuately in his Dominions 3 Able teachers ought to be prouided so much as can be for the Churches 4 The teachers of religion must haue maintenance 5 Almightie God blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote and embrace his Religion 6 The childe of God is not polluted though hee be present at and partaker of the publique Prayers Sacraments c. at such time as wicked men are present at and partakers of them 7 They which were baptized in the Popish Church by Popish Priestes receiued true Baptisme touching the substance of Baptisme 8 They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of Englande by vnpreaching Ministers 9 The godly are not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister 10 The Church of England is the visible Church of Christ 1. A GODLY PRINCE may and ought to compell his Subiects if any refuse to the externall Seruice of God IT is the Princes duetie to prouide able men to teache the Lordes Religion in his dominions So did Iosaphat the king of Iuda 2. Chro. 17. and Artaxerxes the king of Persia Ezra 7. therefore it is the Princes duetie to prouide that his Subiects doe heare and learne the Lords religion Teachers and learners are relatiues Great outrages were committed against both the tables of the commandements as appeareth in the booke of Iudges for euery man did that whih was good in his owne eyes Iudg. 17. 19. cha The reason of these absurdities is set out liuely and often in these words There was no king in Israel Iudg. 17.18 19. Chap. by which words it is manifest that if a religious Prince had bene in place Idolatrie and wicked behauiour had bene suppressed and the Israelites pressed to serue the Lorde That Princes doe not passe their bounds in this it is cleare by that which Augustine reporteth of and commendeth in the King of Babylon Contra Cresc gram lib. 3. cap. 51. The Prince is bound to sanctifie the Sabboth so are his subiects the Lords commaundement is flat for this Remember the Sabboth day to keepe it holy Sixe dayes shalt thou labour and do all thy worke But the seuenth day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God in it thou shalt not do any worke thou nor thy sonne nor thy daughter thy man seruant nor thy mayd nor thy beast nor thy stranger that is within thy gates c. Exo. 20. If none are exempted by almightie God none can be dispensed with by man for all are charged to present themselues in the holy assemblies And least any either prince or subiect should forget this duetie the Lord himselfe is their remembrancer in these wordes Remember that thou sanctifie the Sabboth c. that is the sanctification of my Sabboth is a matter very important it concerneth my honour but thy comfort therfore remember and forget it not If any refuse they may and ought to bee compelled for the breach of the Sabboth is a hainous sinne Iere. 17. Nehem. 13. Faith commeth by hearing of the word Rom. 10. therefore refusall to heare hinders both the beginning and growth of faith The Samaritanes heard Philippe in Samaria they beleeued Actes 8. Lydia heard Paul at Philippos she beleeued Act. 16. Augustine was a Manichee nine yeeres he heard Ambrose the Bishop of Mediolanum and was conuerted August confess lib. 4. cap. 1. and lib. 5. cap. 13. and 14. If any shal aske me why all that heare beleeue not I answere Arcana Deisunt adoranda non scrutanda That is Gods secrets are not to be searched but adored and that vnlesse Gods spirit touch the heart as the worde doeth pearce the eare Gods holy Trueth is a dead letter vnto vs. Asa Iosias were famous kings of Iuda Asa commāded Iuda to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and to do according to the law and cōmandement 2. Chron. 14. Iosias compelled his subiects to serue the Lord their God 2. Chron. 34. So did Manasses after his conuersion 2. Chron. 33. If it were lawfull for these Kings of Iuda to cōmaund and compell their subiects it is not vnlawfull for ours to do the like If it be not lawfull to compell recusants why are Asa Iosias Manasses commended by the holy Ghost for this excellent course Ezra was a learned Scribe he was authorized by the King of Persia to teache them beyonde the riuer Euphrates the Lavve of God vvhich did not knowe it and to punish such as refused to learne Artaxerxes vvarrant is set dovvne in this sort And thou Ezra after

page 84. They amongst vs which are vnbaptized doe sinne grienously if they doe not present themselues to baptisme Chap. 8. page 88. They which are once baptized must not be baptized againe Chap. 19. page 156. They which were baptized of Popish priestes in the Popish Church receiued true baptisme c. chap 7. page 79. and chap. 8. page 88 89. and chap. 20. page 156. 157. The false profession of Christ in popery doth not proue that the true Christ is not in popish baptisme cap. 23. pa. 174. Whether infants ought rather to be kept vnbaptized then to be presented to popish baptisme chap. 23. page 180. The infāts of papists may be baptized in a reformed church if some of the religion do present them to baptisme do vndertake the godly education of them cha 17. pag. 150. There hath bene may be true baptisme out of the church chap. 21. page 158. Though true baptisme was amōgst the Donatists out of the Church August did not giue leaue to any of the church to presēt their infāts to be baptized there cap. 21. pa. 159. They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are administred by vnpreaching ministers in the church of England chap. 8. page 88. 89. 95. 98. None vnbaptized may receiue the holy supper chap. 8. page 90. 91. 92. It is lawful to administer the holy supper in a priuate house if some cautions be obserued chap. 15. page 141. 142. Euery legall vncleannes was not ioyned with sinne chap. 9. page 113. The regenerate cannot fulfil the law of God cha 26. pa. 199 A TABLE OF DIVERS grosse errours and Anabaptisticall fancies conteined in M. Penryes Treatise c. Master Penry saith That the life of the Magistracie is neither prescribed in the worde for so there could be no Magistrates out of the Church nor any in the Church but such as are prescribed in the word which were impious to thinke nor conteined in the gifts of the Magistracie nor yet separated from his outwarde calling For the very outward calling is it that giueth life vnto the Magistracie though the person susteining it want gifts to discharge the same The reason hereof is euident because the Magistracie being an humaine constitution as the holy Ghost saith 1. Pet. 2.13 is appropriated vnto his possession vpō whomsoeuer man bestoweth the same if hee be capable to possesse though vnfit to execute what is a lotted vnto him In his addition page 48. This speach of M. Penryes is very grosse His first reason is this there may be Magistrates out of the Church therefore the life of the Magistracie is not prescribed in the word M. P. Antecedent is true For Pharao Nero Iulian were magistrates out of the Church I deny his argument My reason is the gifts of courage fearing God dealing truly hating couetousnes which are the life of the Magistrate are prescribed in Gods booke Exo. 18.21 Deu. 1.13 If you say they are not the life of the magistracie you dissent from all the learned and therfore must set downe what God requireth of him that should be his Magistrate His second reason is this There are and may be magistrates within the Church which are not garnished with the aboue named gifts therefore the life of the Magistracie is not prescribed in the word My answere is I confesse that absurd Magistrates haue bene and are many times aduanced in the Church I graunt they should not either by the corruption or errour of the electours But I deny your argument My reason is It is great wickednes to thinke because grosse Electours preferre vnfit men and so faile in their duetie that Almightie God hath failed in prescribing what kinde of men he would haue to be his lieutenants M. Penry addeth that the life of the Magistracie is not conteined in the gifts of the magistracie I dissent from him in this If he had said that the birth of the magistracie is not conteined in the gifts of the magistracie he had hit the white M. Penry writeth that the life of the magistracie is not separated from his outward calling for the very outward calling saith he is it that giueth life vnto the magistracie If this were true then the life and birth of the magistrate are idem tempore that is twinnes and consequently whosoeuer hath the outwarde calling which is the birth hath the inwarde calling which is the life of the magistrate So is Gods furniture tyed to the electours voices as to the chaire and the inward outward calling of the magistrate confounded which is a palpable errour If there bee an outward calling to the magistracie without the which no man howsoeuer furnished within may presume to execute the office of the magistrate I am sure there is an inward calling to the magistracie For the outwarde calling doeth import an inward If there be an inward calling which is by God himselfe what I beseech you is it but such furniture and gifts as are prescribed and required in the holy word The foundation whereupon M. Penry hath built his former absurdities is a very rotten post that is a grosse deprauing of a text of Scripture viz. The Magistracie is an humaine ordinance 1. Pet. 2.13 that is a deuise of man and not an Ecclesiasticall constitution prescribed in the worde That the magistracie is not any deuise of man but Gods ordinance for the benefite of man is a cleare trueth in Gods booke None doubt of it vnlesse they be Anabaptists or extremely ignorant M. Penry saith that the word barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not holsome doctrine Chap. 8. pag. 99. This is a blasphemous absurditie M. Penryes reasons for it are most absurd and childish I referre you to my answere Chap. 8. pag. 100. 101. and to a proposition which I haue handled Chap. 4. pag. 62. c. M. Penry writeth that it is false to say that the recitall of the summe of Christes Sermon that is the word of institution c. is an edifying word he saith it mainteyneth charming Chap. 8. pag. 88. 89. This is a blasphemous absurditie If euery part of the Canonical Scripture doth edifie I trust the summe of the Lord Iesus Sermon ought to haue singuler allowance If it ought to haue singuler allowance it may not be indited and arraigned for maintenance of charming M. Penry saith that the people cannot sanctifie a Sabboth without a Sermon His words are these They are no ministers whose flocks by their ministery can not sanctifie the Sabboth our Readers are such c. In his addition pag. 60. M. Penry accounteth the publique reading of the holy Scripture and publique prayers no part of the sanctification of the Sabboth If he had said that the Sabboth is not so well sanctified without as with a godly Sermon I woulde haue agreed vnto him M. Penry maketh the person to giue credite to the holy word His wordes are these The word of God vttered is not an

ignorant men which are not acquainted with Gods booke be kept and thrust out of the holy ministerie vnlesse they will be partakers of great sinnes and consequently of great plagues A sufficient teacher is a rare blessing for he setteth the Lords plough forward and is Gods hand to deliuer heauenly treasures If good care shall be had by our Prince our Bishops our Patrons to goe on in aduancing and making choise of such both gouernors and pastors Gods religion Church Vniuersities will flourish more notably and consequently Gods glory our gracious Prince shall be more soundly honoured the people of the land shall be singularly encouraged to serue God to fight for the religion for their Prince for their countrey against any either forraine or home enemie and Gods fauour and blessings shall be multiplied vpon our Queene vpon vs and vpon our posteritie Almightie God will accept this at our hands for great thankfulnes for his late mercy in preseruing the English both fleet and nation and amazing dispersing the popish fleet by his mighty hand This gracious and notable fauour of God hath danted Gods our enemies in al popish kingdomes and churches and hath put life into Gods seruants in all nations Churches that professe the religion The Lord for his Christes sake graunt that we may be reuerently mindfull of and humbly thankfull to his maiestie for this deliuerance And that as in the time of danger we vsed the 83. and 68. psalmes to entreate Gods fauour so we may euer sing the 124. and 46. psalmes to publish Gods mercie and to testifie our thankfulnes for this gracious conquest CHAP. 3. ALMIGHTIE GOD NEVER called any to Magistracie but hee furnished them accordingly THe Egyptians were harde masters to the Israelites They kept them very short in Egypt When almighty God would blesse the Israelites with freedom and gouernment he furnished Moses notably for that excellent seruice He gaue him singuler wisedome courage c. If he had not Moses had bene vtterly vnfit for such a famous match Moses complained vnto the Lorde that hee alone was not able to gouerne the Israelites Almightie God for the ease of Moses appointed 70. Elders of Israel to help in that gouernment That those Ancients might cary thēselues profitably in that charge the Lord did garnish them accordingly Num. 11. Moses before his death desired the Lorde to appoint one to succeede him in the gouernment that the Israelites might not be as sheepe without a shepheard Num. 27. Gods pleasure was that Iosua should be the man Deut. 34. He did so assist and furnish him with the feare of God with the spirit of wisedome courage c. that he became very famous in peace in warre at and after his dying day The Church common wealth of the Israelites decayed greatly were at a low ebbe in king Sauls time That both Church and cōmon wealth might be reuiued the Lord aduanced his seruant Dauid to the kingdome He did beautifie him with extraordinary graces as with precious Diamonds Dauid was very religious very wise very valiant very religious for hee brought home the Lordes Arke very wise for his royal throne was a seate of Iustice very valiant for he vanquished many enemies Salomō succeeded his father Dauid in the gouernment of the Israelites That he might cary himselfe accordingly in that great charge he desired and obtained at Gods hands a wise and vnderstanding heart 1. King 3. Shebna was a great officer in Ezechias Court His course was cunning and dangerous to the common wealth of Iuda Almightie God coulde not beare him therefore sent a notable vengeance vpon him In his steade Eliakim was appointed vnder the King of Iuda A man singularly furnished by the Lord for he was a father of the inhabitants of Ierusalem and of the house of Iuda Esay 22. Ioseph was aduanced in Egypt Nehemias in Persia Daniel in Chaldea They dealt excellently in their gouernment for almightie God did notable furnish them Gedeon was a very meane man he attended on the flaile In his time the Madianites were heauie to the Israelites 7. yeeres That the Lord might deliuer his people from the tyrannie of the Madianites he furnished Gedeon for that seruice in extraordinary sort Iudg. 6. and 7. chap. There were in Gedeon which ought to be in euery Captaine both by sea and land Scientia rei militaris virtus authoritas faelicitas Cic. pro lege Manil. That is skil in warlike affaires vertue authoritie felicitie They which are inwardly called to the Magistracie are such as are furnished by the Lord with good parts for that weighty function They are not brambles as Abimelech was nor sots as Maximinus was nor fooles as Candaules was They are vine figge oliue trees as Dauid Ezechias Iosaphat Constantinus were These are such Magistrates in whom God delighteth and which are best welcome to Gods people for they are rare ornaments both of Church and common wealth God increase the number of such in this lande that both Church and common wealth may shine continually as starres at home abroade c. to the glory of God the honour of the Prince the terrour of the enemie and the comfort of the English nation CHAP. 4. THE READING OF THE holy Scripture doth edifie MOses commaunded the Priests in this sort c. When all Israel shall come to appeare before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall chuse thou shalt reade this lawe before all Israel that they may heare it Gather the people together men and women and children and thy stranger that is within thy gates that they may heare and that they may learne and feare the Lord your God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of this law And that their children which haue not knowen it may heare it and learne to feare the Lord your God c. Deut. 31. I gather my argument out of this place thus By reading of the lawe of God the Israelites did learne and feare God therefore they were edified If you reply that all the Israelites did not profite by this reading I answere no more did all profit by the preaching of the Prophets of Christ and the Apostles The fault was not in the seed but in the ground Vnlesse Gods spirit touch our hearts as the worde doeth pearce our eares Gods truth either read or preached is a shut booke and as a sealed letter vnto vs. When hee shall sit vpon the throne of his kingdome then shall he write him this lawe repeated in a booke by the Priests of the Leuites And it shall be with him and he shall reade therein all dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe all the woordes of this lawe and these ordinances for to doe them That his heart be not lifted vp aboue his brethren and that hee turne not from the commandement to the right hand or to the left but that he may prolong his dayes in his

calling at all first Luther which had imposition of handes in the Popish Church had no externall calling at all Secondly in your iudgement either no Baptisme was deliuered by Popish Priests in the Popish Church or Baptisme if any were in the Popish Church was administred by priuate men for they which haue no calling at all are priuate men I neede not driue you to absurde consequents you cast your selfe headlong into them as into a dangerous quauemire Your Treatises wherein you haue sowen grosse errours thicke and threefolde are witnesses ynough of this Are not your disciples most vnhappie which depende on you as on another Pope You aske whether there is a ministery out of the Church What my iudgemēt is appeareth hereafter In the meane time you deny not that there is true baptisme therefore consequently a ministery in the Popish Church which you say is no Church Caiphas Priesthoode hath both searched and founde you out It bewrayeth your grosse ignorance CHAP. 8. THEY ARE THE SACRAments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreaching Ministers I. Penry YOu knowe M. Some what I meane by an vnpreaching Minister namely euery one learned or vnlearned that cannot shewe himselfe by the good triall of his giftes to haue that fitnesse to reach whereof we read 2. Tim. 2. 1. Tim. 3. Which abilitie the Lord doeth not ordinarily bestow vpon any in these our dayes without the knowledge of the Artes especially the two handmaides of all learning Rhetoricke and Logique and the two originall tongues wherein the worde was written R. Some If none are to be accounted ministers ordinarily which are not furnished as you prescribe and require many in the primitiue Church after Christes Ascension were no ordinarie ministers Valerius a godly man whom Augustine succeeded at Hippo in Afrique was no ordinarie minister Possid in vita Aug. cap. 5. Samsucius a godly Bishop was no ordinarie minister Aug. epist 168. Augustine which was a famous man was no ordinarie minister Many profitable pastours in this age are no ordinarie ministers Yea M. Penryes ignorant Leuiticall priestes whome hee alloweth and defendeth to bee lawfull Priests were no ordinarie ministers If such as were baptized in the popish Church receiued true baptisme I trust they are rightly baptized in the Church of England which are baptized by vnpreaching ministers I. Penry The rest of your booke is now to be examined Your conclusion pag. 22. that they which were baptized by vnpreaching ministers are rightly baptized as touching the substance of baptisme I doe not gainesay Your reasons are weake for howe could we proue your conclusion if men shoulde denie popish baptisme to be true baptisme as I doe not you knowe and he should doe me great iniurie which would lay that to my charge Were it sufficient for vs to say they were Catabaptists which denie popish baptisme howe coulde this be proued and this shoulde not proue the matter doubted of R. Some Do you answere of this fashion this is as farre off as Yorke from London The summe of your answere is that my reasons are weake that you denie not my conclusion Are my reasons weake because you say so If they were like your senseles answeres they were strange stuffe If you deny not thē which were baptized by vnpreaching ministers to be rightly baptized it is a necessarie consequent euen in your owne iudgement first that either vnpreaching ministers are ministers or that priuate men may deliuer a Sacrament secondly that it was and is a Sacrament which is administred without a Sermon They which denie that such as were baptized in the popish Church receiued true baptisme touching the substance of baptisme are Catabaptists in the iudgement of all learned writers and reformed Churches I rest in their iudgement R. Some If such as were baptized by popish priests in the popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in the Church of England receiued no Sacrament many grosse absurdities would followe First very many are vnbaptized and if they be vnbaptized they sinne grieuously in not presenting themselues to the holy Sacrament I. Penry Shall we say that they sinne in not presenting themselues to be baptized To whom should they present themselues who would baptize them R. Some What meane scholer in either of the Vniuersities yea what Russet coate in the Countrey would shape such an answere In steade of answering my reasons you aske me two questions I must be content to answere there is no remedie Your first question is Shall we say that they sinne in not presenting themselues to be baptized My answere is they doe sinne no learned and godly man doubtes of it my reasons are First Baptisme is externus character that is the outward marke and badge of a Christian so writeth that famous man M. Foxe Cap. 14. in Apocal. Secondly the contempt of circumcision was grieuously punished Gen. 17. Yea the Angel would haue killed Moses because his sonne was not circumcised Exod. 4. Thirdly they in the primitiue Church which had excellent graces presented themselues to baptisme which baptisme before they had not So did many in Ierusalem after Peters sermon Act. 2. many in Samaria after Philips sermons Act. 8. many in Corinth after Pauls sermons Act. 18. Your second question is to whom should they presēt them selues who would baptize them my answere is after a publique profession of their faith in the christian assembly they must present themselues to be baptized of the minister So did Cornelius in Caesarea Act. 10. Lidia in Philippi Acts. 16. Crispus and Gaius in Corinth Act. 18.1 Cor. 1. and a Iewe of late yeeres in London I speake nowe of such as be of yeres and are vnbaptized I hope you wil not gather of this that I shut our infants from the holy Sacrament of Baptisme if you should you deserue rather to be censured by the Magistrate then to be confuted by argument R. Some If such as were baptized by popish priests in the popish Church and by vnpreaching ministers in the Church of England receiued no Sacrament a great number haue sinned grosly in partaking the holy Supper My reason is none vncircumcised might eate the Passeouer Exo. 12.48 therefore none vnbaptized may receiue the holy Supper I. Penry Admit they sinned in receiuing the Lords Supper before they were baptized should they therefore be bereaued of the comfort of baptisme to affirme that this were a going backward is no reason because they were perswaded that they had baptisme otherwise they would not haue bene so farre on their iourney vntill they had bene accompanied therewith But they omitted baptisme of ignorance and not of contempt theref●●e they denie the receiuing of the Lords Supper to haue bene a sinne any more then it would be a sinne in them nowe to receiue the Lords Supper if they could not haue Baptisme Baptisme they would haue if they could orderly come by the same Because men will be so iniurious vnto them as