Brother because an Oâ—pring was then begotteÌ„ of that former Mariadg to wit the daughter of Herodiades who so pleased the King with dansing that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades begotte by the Brother of Herod is acknowledged by the testimony of Chrisostome Secondly I further answeare to this example of Herod that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest but also adultery since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother he being yet liuing as S. Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes and Iosephus auerreth the same Thus far then of this poynt to show that all the Precepts of Leâ—iticus touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg are not commanded by the law of Nature and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law for the euer obseruing of them But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable And consequently that the Church of Christ may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloqâ—y of our Aduersaries charging the Pope that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament consequently by his owne doctrine vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament which was first instituted by Christ and therefore inaltorable by Man To which false aspertion I answeare that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg Christ did not appoint or set downe but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons for the contracting of mariadge And in this sort the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament But doth not nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge And herewith I conclude this short discours touching this subiect That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ or reiect those words in the Decalogue Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. But that they willingly acknowledge them as part of the Decalogue howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechisâ—es and Primars VVHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale through their affected fraud in their Catechisâ—nes and Primars one commandement and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ To wit Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen or on earth beneath neyther of those things which are in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them c. This I say is eyther a fraudulent or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries For the truth is those words heere recited do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me these later being but a more full explication of the first words and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements This is thus prooued Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements but only that which may be truly called an Idoll that is an Image which is taken for God or which representeth God to be that thing which God is not Therefore when it is sayd Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden But in those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited Of which point most at large Saint Austin discourseth Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God appeareth in that the Scripture telleth vs that God himselfe commanded Images to be made According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins Lyons and Oxen to be made In the Booke of Numbers the brazen serpent And in Exodus the Images of the Cherubin to be made From whence we may infallibly conclude that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God as a distinct precept from the first but only so farre forth as the Images be taken for God and consequently that as is aboue said these words forbidding the making of Images do but make one the same Commandement with the first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine Againe Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited in the former words of the Decalogue then should it follow that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten but eleuen or twelue an inference incompatible with the Scripture it selfe which in expresse words teacheth that there are but ten Commandements The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued It is granted on all sides that those words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me is one Precept That thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne is an other A third Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day A fourth Honour thy Father and thy Mother A fift Thou shalt not kill A sixt Thou shalt not commit adultery A seauenth Thou shalt not steale An eight Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour A ninth Thou shalt noâ— couet c. Now that Thou shalt not couet c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts so as the ninth Precept shal be Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife the tenth Thou shalt not coâ—ct thy neighbours Oxe nor his Asse nor any thing that is his Or els those word Thou shalt not couet c. with all the words following to wit his Wife his Oxe his Asse or any thing that is his do make but one precept or Commandement Yf they ought to be deuided into two then followeth it that those words Thou shalt not make any grauen â—mage c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement contrary to the Scripture or that this is not a distinct precept froÌ„ the first videlicet Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me As Clemens Alexander Saint Austin all schoolemen and Latin Catechismes do teach And then it followeth that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words but only that which is taken for an other God Now if supposing further that that thou shalt not couet c. be only one Precept as some other fathers do hould then to make vp the tenth Commandement all those words Thou shalt not
make to thy selfe any grauen image c. thou shalt not adorethem nor worship them c. do concurre to make vp one Precept or Commandement But absolutly and simply to make Images and to adore or worship them being made are two different things in themselues because one man may adore an Image which he did not make and an other Man may make an Image and yet not adore it Therefore only one of these two things is prohibited in the foresayd words Since otherwise there should be eleuen Commandements But it is certayne that the worshipping of Images in place of God is forbidden Therefore the absolute making of them is not forbiddâ—n but only with reference of worshipping them insteed of God Now the Schoolemen and all Latin Catechismes Primars do follow herein the first opinion of S. Augustin to wit that those words thou shalt not make any grauen Image c. do make but one Commandement with the first Precept of not worshipping other Gods And therefore Primars and Catechismes intending but breifly and in few words to set downe the ten Commandements do omit to set downe that thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. thou shalt not adore them c. because as is said these words are implicitly included in the first Commandement In like sort and for the same cause of briefly setting downe the ten Commandements we find that Latin Cathechismes and Primars do omit to set downe diuers words immediatly following in Exodus and belonging to the Commandement of keeping the Saboath day holy The words omitted are these Six dayes thou shalt labour and doe all thy worke but the seauenth day is the Saboath of thy Lord thy God c. Besides many other words there following The same course the Catechisms and Primars take in setting downe the Commandement of honoring thy Father and thy Mother where these words following are also for bâ—euity omitted that thy dayes may be prolonged vpon the land which the Lord thy God giueth thee Now is it not a loose and dissolute kind of reasoning thus to argue The Papists do purposely conceale and labour to put out of holy Scripture diuers passages immediatly following belonging to the Commandements of keeping the Saboath day holy and of honoring thy Father and Mother because for greater breuity they do not set downe the said passages being but meere explications of the sayd Commandements in their Cathechismes and Primars when they make recitall of the ten Commandements And yet we see the Protestants do euen in the same manner argue most wildly against the Catholicks for not setting downe those words Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any graueÌ„ Image c. Yf the Protestants could prooue that any one Catholicke did say or mantaine that the said words of not making Images were not Scripture and were not spoken by God in the deliuery of the ten Commandements to Moyses then they had iust reason to charge the Catholicks with great Impiety herein But this is impossible for the Protestants to do And therefore this accusation of the Protestants against the Catholicks herein is an errour as in the beginning was intimated compounded of malice and ignorance where I thinke the greater Ingredient is malice And thus much touching the supposed raizing and expunging out of one Commandement by the Catholicks The Catholicke Doctrine touching Images TOuching Images the Catholicks do teach two things First that lawfully they may be had and kept by reason of the profit proceeding from them Secondly that we hauing them may lawfully geue vnto them a peculiar respect or worship aboue other prophane things as they are things consecrated vnto religious vses Touching the Vtility This we find in them First they do instruct the ignorant and such as cannot reade and therefore they are worthely called Libri illiter atorum by some of the fathers And hence it is that the picture is so made as that for the most part it contayneth in it selfe a short abstract or Compendium of the history of him of whom it is the Image Thus for example When Christ is painted either in the shape of a yonge Child in the bosome of his mother or in the forme of a Man tyed to a Pillar to be whipped or hanging vpon the Crosse or rysing from the graue or ascending to Heauen c. And so the ignorant by behoulding the pictures are theareby put in remembrance of the Incarnation the Passion the Resurrection and the Ascention of our Lord and Sauiour And the lyke may be said of the pictures of Saincts who are commonly pictured in such sort as that the picture doth descrybe some cheiffe part of their Sanctity sufferance Martyrdome or power and authority as for example S. Lawrence is commonly pictured lying vpon the gridiron and so of other Saincts And thus secondarily it resulteth from hence that Images are profitablâ— to 〈…〉 our Loue towards God and his Saincts Seing we see by experience that who loueth doth most willingly behould and comtemplate the Image of the partye so beloued by him Lastly and principally Images do greately healpe vs in tyme of prayer for seeing and behoulding them at that tyme they presearue in vs the Memory of Christ and his Saincts and soâ—n time of prayer our thoughts are fixed with greater eleuation of mynd vpon Christ and his Saincts by reason of the pictures â—eare present Now this is to be vnderstood that wheÌ„ we pray we neither pray to the Pictures nor honour them with the honour due to God for this is the Protestants willfully mistaken assertion most wrongfully laid to our charge but only in presence of them we do in tyme of prayer prosecute God with that supreme reuerence and honour which is peculiar to himselfe alone This is the true vse which we Catholicks make of Images in tyme of our Deuotions But now before we come to entreate of the worship of Images in particular we are to conceaue that according to all learned Schoolemen Adoration or worship of any thing containeth in it selfe three different Acts. The first is an Act of the Vnderstanding by the which we apprehend the excellenâ—y of any thing The second the Act of the Will by the wâ—â—ch we are inwardly moued to manifest or protest our Worship by some exteriour or interiour Act The third is an exteriour Act by the which we moue our hat or bow our leg or show some other externall signe in manifestation of our inward worship geuen Of which three Acts the second which is of the Will is most eâ—entiall seeing the first may be without Adoration and the third with â—rision and scorne as the Iewes worshipped our Sauiour vpon the Crosse Heare further we are to remember that that worship which is geuen to God alone is a cheife and supreme prostration and inclination of the Will with the apprehension of God as the first beginning and last ending of all things and therefore as our cheife Good and is called by
Faith Secondly we will enquire and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued That is how longe Papistry as you commonly tearme it hath bene publikly professed and taught throughout all Christendome Thirdly and lastly we will then take a view of the times betweene these two former seuerall times for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides to wit the time during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles and the time during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward it ineuitably followeth that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times or els that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all Now concerning the first of these times how long in the Protestants iudgements M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine or alteration in any point of moment or Article of beliefe for that only is to be enquired the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS I will confesse in all ingenuity that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated till after the deaths of Optatus Epiphanius and Augustine which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ CARD BELLARMINE You say most truely and I do like your playnesse herein since he is truely politike espetially in matters of Religion which require all candour in theire menaging who is not politicke For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted that Tertullian prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation in these words The argument then drawne from Succession was good because the Church of Rome retained by Succession vntill Tettullians dates that Faith which it did first receaue from the Apostles To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe M. Doctour in your booke writen against me subscribs thus saying from hence we do vnderstaÌ„d why TertulliaÌ„ did appeale to those Churches to wit because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession But to descend further in time touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumeÌ„t drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus Cyprian Optatus Hierome Vincentius Lyrinensis and Augustine all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome still continued till their daies your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort That these Fathers especially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles With whome accordeth D. lewell saying Aswell Augustine as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome c. for the purity of Religion which was there preserued a loÌ„g time without spot To conclude Caluine himselfe euen in the same manner answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê insisted vpon by Irenaeus Tertullian Origen Augustine Optatus Epiphanius and others for thus Caluine speaketh Cùm extra controuersiam esset nihil à principio vsque ad aetâ—â—tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine froÌ„ the beginning to that very age was changed these holy Fathers did take that which they thought sufficient for the destroying of all new Errours to wit the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent retayned euen from the Apostles dayes till their tymes Thus Caluine To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence out of D. Fulke saying The Popish Church c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe Thus he granting that till S. Augustins death the Church of Rome was the true Church so euident and clere we se it is that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it vntill the times of S. Augustin Epiphanius Optatus c. which was as is aboue sayd foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ Thus farre M. Doctor concerning the durance of the tymes euen by the Protestants frequent confessions that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome Tonching which poynt Irefere you for greater satisfaction to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers to wit of Hierome Ireâ—aeus Augustine Vincentius Lyrâ—neâ—sis Ambrose c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth and consequently was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration Now all this being made thus euident it followeth according to our designed Method that we consider the number of those ages during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards the present Roman Fayth hath by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants do grant that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith so long it followeth by their owne implicit censures and most necessary inferences that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth Therfore M. Doctour I would know of you what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance and antiquity of our present Roman and Catholicke Religion D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth for a thousand yeares at least For first D. Humfry my worthy sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England being sent by Gregory the Great then Pope of Rome who liued in the yeare 590 thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion In Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus Onus ceremoniarum c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church They did bring a burden of Ceremonies They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall for the solemnization of the Masse They did bring in Purgatory c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast and prayer for the dead c. Relicks Transubstantiation c. a new conscecratioÌ„ of Temples c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences Monachisme Papisme and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition all this did Augustine the great Monke being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke bring to the English men Thus farre D. Humfry CARD BELLARM. Well then M. Doctour it clearely appeares by this that
except the name Catholicks which was euen in the Primatiue Church the surname of all Christians according to that Christianus mihi nomen est Catholicus vero cagnomen Illud me nuncupat istud me osteÌ„dit though the contrary we can shew of you who haue the names giuen to you of Lutherans Caluenits Besits c. Therfore it clearely followeth that the Professours of the present Roman Church haue neuer changed their Fayth first planted by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Now my L. Cardinall you are foiled with your owne argument For haue you not the name of Papists peculiarly appropriated to your selues to distinguish you from the true professours of the ghospel In like sort are not some of your religious Men called Bernardins others Franciscans Benedictins Augustins c. so taking their appellation from particuler Men and thus your owne argument rebutteth vpon your selfe with great disaduantage Therfore my Lord be not so confident aforehand in the force of your alleaged reasoÌ„ but remember that Thraâ—y's prò'erysóù ' ec pollóù cacòs who is euer bould before the worke is attempted is commoÌ„ly indiscreete CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour You so seriously here trifle as that I euen blush in your behalfe to obserue how you wroÌ„g yourfollowers and Proselits with such weake transparency of reasons For you are here to vnderstand that the Surnames of Peculiar Hereticks as the Arians Eutichians Maniches and of all others were imposed vpon the Professours of these Heresies euen at the first beginning and rising of the sayd Heresies and were inuented out of necessity to distinguish their Heresies from all other Doctrines but now the word Papist M. Doctour was coyned but lately by Luther himselfe against vs this not out of necessity but of reproach our Fayth and Doctrine being acknowledged aboue by your leaned Brethren to haue bin in the world many hundred yeares before Luthers dayes Agayne the Word Papist is not restrained to any one Pope or any peculiar Doctrine taught by the present Church of Rome but it is indifferently extended to all Popes and all doctrines taught by the sayd Popes so fowly M. Doctour are you mistaken in alleadging the name Papist against vs and so much do you and other Protestants wrong vs euen for that very name we vndergoing herein by your Brethrens calumnies the like misfortune which Collatinus Tarquinius suffered who was depriued of his honours and subiect to disgrace and reproach by the Romans only for the hatefull name of Tarquinius Touching those names of Franciscans Bernardins Benedictans c. It is so cleare that these names are not imposed for change of Fayth but only for institution of seueral degrees of a vertuous and religious life as that I will answere you in your former Brother D. Feild his words who thus solueth this your obiection We must obserue that they who professe the Fayth of Christ haue bin sometymes in these later ages of the Church called after the special names of such Men as were the Authours beginners and deuisers of such courses of Monastical Profession as they made choyse to follow as Benedictans such like Thus D. Feild MICHEAS I thinke M. Doctour vnder yonr fauour that these your instances of names taken from the first institutours of seueral religious Orders in the Church of Christ do not imply any change of Fayth made by them and therefore the force of my L. Cardinal his argument borrowed from new imposed appellations is not weakned but rather fartified by this your reply My Reason is this in our Iewish Law we read that ther were some called Rechabits and others Nazarites both professing a more strict course of life then the vulgar and common people did In like sort Iosephus and Philo report much of the austerity of the Essenes among vs Iewes who in regard of such their peculiar Profession were called Essenes and to whom God vouchsafed many spiritual fauours and consolations Happy men since he is most fit to walke vpon the hight of celestial contemplation who liueth in the vale of a voluntary humility retyrednes and mortification In whom the fyre of the spirit doth euer extinguish the fire of the flesh and sensuality thus the greater heare putting forth the lesse heate Now shal any man thinke that these men instituted a Fayth and Religion different from that of Moyses It is both absurd to entertayne such a thought and withall it is a wrong and dishonour to the Law of Moyses And in my iudgment both these instances of the Old Testament produced by me and those other of the Franciscans c. obiected by you M. Doctour in a true and eauen libration of theÌ„ do prooue that which my L. Cardinal first endeauoured to prooue from the imposition of new Names For they manifest the seueral changes and alterations which were made both in the old Testament and the new touching a more austere profession of a vertuous life which was the subiect of those changes as these other new imposed names of Arians Nestorians Maniches and the rest aboue specified do necessarily euict a change first made in Doctrine by Arius Nestorius Manicheus c. But my L. Cardinall if you wil enlarge your selfe no further vpon this poynt I humbly intreate you to proceed to some other argument CARD BELLARM. Learned Micheas I wil proceed to that which at this instant shal be my last though for weight and force it might wel take the first place And it shal be taken M. Doctour from the first plantatioÌ„ of Christianity in your owne Country which though immediatly it concerneth but one Nation yet potentially it prooueth that ther was no change of Fayth at all made in the Church of Christ in any former tymes by the Professours of the present Roman Religion But here M. Doctour I am to demand your iudgment touching the times in which and the Person by whom the Britons of Wales were first conuerted to the Christian Fayth D. WHITAKERS All we Protestants agree that the Britons of Wales whre conuerted in the Apostles tyme by Ioseph of Aramathia and this we prooue not only form the authority of Sainct Bede who did write the history therof in the yeare 724. but also from the authority of our Principal Historiographers for thus M. Cambden our learned Countryman writeth Certum est Brit 〈…〉 in ipsa Ecclesiae infantia Christianâ—m Religionem imbibisse It is Certaine that the Britons receaued the Christian Religion euen in the infancy of the Church Who thus further discourseth of this Poynt In hac floruit Monasterium GlastenburieÌ„sis c. Here florished the Monastery of GlasteÌ„bury which taketh it ancieÌ„t beginning from Ioseph of Aramathia c. for this is witnessed by the most ancient Monuments of this Monastery c. nether is there any reason Why we should doubt therof Thus far M. Cambden with whom conspire all other Chroniclers as Harrison in his description of Britanny and others Yea of vs
of the Messias For all we concurrently maintayne that the Professours of the true fayth must at all tymes without the least interruption be made knowne and discernable And we further iustify that a want of such a Visibility destroyeth and annihilaâ—eth the Church of God MICHAEAS But will these two learned Men conspire with you M. Doctour in defending this euer necessary Visibility of the Church and this without any retyring backe herein or lessening and mincing the poynt once afore granted OCHINVS I speake for my selfe I am so confident therein as that I am ready at this instant to maintayne it agaynst any and this from the prophecyes of Gods sacred writ wherein the palme and victorious state of the Church in subiugating to it the Gentils is at large soretould to be in these after tymes euer most illustrious and radiant NEVSERVS And I as confidently do auerre the same euen from the sayd former deuine Oracles and am prepared if neede should require to solue all such texts of Scripture which in an ignorant and mistaking eye may seeme to import an Inuisibility of the Church at any tyme. MICHAEAS You all answere me to my full content and aboue my expectation Well then let vs eauen and playne the way of our ensuing dispute by resting vpon some one granted ground on all sides Which ground is the establishment of the Churches Visibility For it being once presumed that the true Church of God must at all tymes enjoy this Visibility it then most consequently followeth that you are obliged eyther to produce examples of Protestant Professours for euery age since Christ or els to grant that the Protestant Church is not the true Church but a late erected Conuenticle Therefore in regard hereof I hould it fitting that all of vs should ioyne our forces together for the proofe of this chiefe and head principle of the Churches Visibility you then Ochinus if it shall please you may according to your former proffer vndertake the probation of it from the Scripture Neuserus will he sayth recconcile all such chiefe seeming passages of the Scripture as may make show to euict the contrary And I will entreate of you M. Doctour to fortify the sayd Verity from the learned Monuments of the auncient fathers in whose wrytings no doubt you haue bene much conuersant as also from force of Reason My selfe will lastly reuet and warrant the same point from the often ingeminated acknowledgments of the most markable learned Protestants In whose bookes I confesse I haue much trauelled since my conuersion from Iudaisme And whose authorities I shall haue often occasion to produce throughout this conference For now you may take notice that I haue cast off all my former outward comportment of a Iew and am not only in fayth but also in my studyes my Idiome of speech and euery way els wholy Christian D. REYNOLDS I like well your method here intended and indeed it is that which the Philosophers call Ordo Naturae For by this meanes we first handle the Thesis to wit whether the Church of God is to be visible or no. That done we next descend to the Hypothesis Which is if the Protestants Church hath euer enioyed this Visibility or not Neyther can any iudicious man hould this first part as but certayne Prolegomena tending only to the better vnfoulding of the second Part for it is indeed a primary essentiall and radicall point and first in all necessity to be discussed For what auayleth it to prooue that there haue bene Professours of Protestancy in all ages since Christ if it rest doubtfull whether the Church of Christ exacteth such a necessity of it Professours in all ages or no Therefore Michaeas for my part I wâ—llingly vndergoe the taske desired by you OCHINVS We all ioyne hands herein Thus we see that ech of vs is prepared to cary a stone to the building of this fort which being once erected wil be able to endure the shot of her greatest Enemyes NEVSERVS I am most ready to performe my former assumed Scene therefore delay no tyme but begin OCHINVS Well then seing the proofes drawne from the sacred Scripture are worthily euer to haue the first place and seing I haue voluntarily imposed this labour vpon my selfe I will first begin Now for the confirmation of this supreme Verity of the Churches Visibility we will produce our first proofes from those Prophecyes which foretell that the Church after the coÌ„ming of the Messias shal be miraculously multiplyed Which extraordinary multiplicity of Professours must needs imply a Visibility of them As where it is sayd of the Church The Iles shall wayte for thee Their Kings shall miuister vnto thee and thy gates shal be continually open Neyther day nor night shall they be shut that men may bring to thee the riches of the gentills And agayne Kings shal be thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy mothers And yet more I will giue thee the Heathens for thy inheritance and the end of the earth for thy Possession And lastly to omit diuers others such predictions of the Churches encrease and amplitude it is sayd enlarge the places of thy tents spread out the curtaynes of thy habitation for thou shalt encrease on the right hand and on the left thy seede shall possesse the Gentills and inhabit the desolate Cityes Now how can these Prophecyes touching the enlargement of the Church be truly applyed to that Church which shall consist of so few as that it shal be sometimes absolutely Inuisible Or how shall it gates be continually open and shut neyther day nor night as aboue is prophecyed of it if it shall remayne at any time in a night of Latency In this next place I will alledge such texts of holy Scripture wherin we fynd the word Ecclesia or Church In all which without exception by the word Church is signifyed a visible congregation of Men. The places among others for breuity omitted may be these Numbers 20. Why haue you brought the Church of the Lord into solitude But this Church was the knowne and visible people of Israëll which came out of Aegypt In like sort it is sayd 3. Kings 8. The King turned his face and blessed all the Church of Israell for all the Church of Israell did stand c. Math 18. Tell the Church if he will not heare the Church let him be as an Heathen or Publican But how can we be commanded to tell the Church if we do not know which is the Church And if in all our spirituall necessities we are commanded to repaire to the Church then followeth it that the Church at all tymes must be visible Act. 20. Take heede to your selues and to the whole flock wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops regere Ecclesiam Det to gouerne the Church of God But how could they gouerne the Church of God if they knew it not Act. 15. They being brought on the way by the Church passed through Phâ—enice
and Samaria And agayne there They were receaued of the Church and the Apostles Act. 18. Paule went vp and saluted the Church Now how can these texts be possibly applyed to any Inuisible congregation or company of men Furthermore S. Paul speaketh of himselfe that he persecuted the Church of God as in 1. Cor. 15. Galat. 1. Philipp 3. In all which places the word Church is vsed But it is well knowne whom S. Paul did persecute And in 1. Timoth. 3. It is sayd how to conuerse indomo Dei quae est Ecclesia Dei in the house of the liuing God which is the Church of God But how could Timothee know how to conuerse in the house of God except he did know which was this house To all which former texts of Scripture I annex this one note a point much to be considered that not any one place of Scripture can be produced wherein the word Church is named but that a Visible and externall coÌ„pany of men is necessarily vnderstood thereby To the former Scriptures may be added certayne descriptions of the Church in other passages thereof as in Esay 2. Daniel 3. Michaeas 4. the Church is compared to a conspicuous mountayne which cannot be vnseene according to the expositions of Ierom Austin and the Protestants In like sort in Psalm 18. those words He placed his tabernacle in the Sunne are thus paraphrazed by S. Austin In manifesto posuit Ecclesiam suam c. He placed his tabernacle in an open place his tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sunne not in the night but in the day Thus Austin Another most illustrious conuincing passag of the Scripture for the Churches Visibility is that in the Epistle to the Ephesians c. 4. where it is sayd of Christ He gaue Pastours Doctours to the consummation of Saints vnto the worke of the Ministery till we all meete in the Vnity of Fayth that is as D. Fulke interpreteth for euer These words necessarily import that the Church of Christ must at all tymes and seasons and this without any interruption haue Pastours to administer the Sacraments and preach the word Which exposition being granted implyeth necessarily an euer Visibility of the Church For how can those Doctours and Pastours preach at all tymes and vpon all occasions the word of God administer the Sacraments if they be concealed and lye in secret Or how can the persons to whom the Word is preached the Sacraments dispensed become vnknowne or Inuisible That this is the true interpretation of the former text of the Ephesians is generally taught by our owne learned men For according hereto D. Whitakers teacheth the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments to be so necessary to the Church that he thus saith Si adsunt Ecclesiam constituunt tollunt si aufer antur With whom conspireth D. Willet thus saying of the administratioÌ„ of the Word Sacraments These marks cannot be absent from the Church and it is no longer a true Church then it hath these Markes And heÌ„ce it is that D. Whitakers further sayth that the preaching of the word and the administration of the SacrameÌ„ts are Ecclesiae proprietates essentiales essentiall proprâ—etyes of the Church And that D. Fulke thus affirmeth Christ will suffer no particuler Church to continue without a seruaÌ„t to ouersee it And that Pastours Doctours must be in the Church till the end of the World euen froÌ„ Christs time to Luthers age yea our sayd D. Fulke further affirmeth that these b Pastours Doctours must resist all false opinions with open reprehension Vnto our former brethren accord other Protestant Deuines thus wryting The ministery is an ossentiall Marke of the true Church Finally Caluin comparteth with vs all herein saying the Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours So truly do we Protestants interpret the words of Esay Vpon thy walls ô Ierusalem I haue set watchmen all the day and all the night for euer they shall not be silent Now from these premisses we demonstraciuely proue the euer and vninterrupted visibility of the Church a point so euident that our owne learned Protestants do according to the former doctrine defyne a visible Church in these words A visible Church is a congregation of the faithfull people where the word is preached and the Sacraments ministred Which definition is also allowed by Doctour Willet and which euen in reason it selfe is warrantable since the Church as enioying the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen in that respect become visible as we said aboue And thus farre of this prophecy of the Apostle in the explication whereof I haue stayed the longer in that it irrefragably conuinceth the poynt now handled And here I end touching the necessary Visibility of Gods Church prooued out of the sacred Scriptures NEVSERVS You might haue added Ochinus to the former Propheeyes that it is in another place foretould of the Church of the new Testament that it Pastours shal be daily multiplyed to minister vnto God And this not with any interruption herein but euen from month to month and from Sabaoth to Sabaoth That all this is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Messias appeareth from the Annotations of the English Bibles vpon the Chapters here cited printed 1576. You also might further haue insisted in that other Prophecy that the Kingdome of Christ shall not be giuen ouer to an other People but shall stand for euer And that it shal be an eternall glory and ioy from generation to generation All which passages to be meant of the Church is acknowledged by all learned Protestants Now how vntowardly and vnaptâ—y these passages with the former by you alledged sort to a company of Professours shut vp in so secret a manner as that no man can take notice of them I referre to any mans iudgement not wholy blinded with partiality and preiudice But I feare Ochinus I haue wronged you in vndertaking part of your assumed taske therefore I will cease and descend as afore I promised to answere such chiefe places of the Scripture as are by some vrged in their sily wrytings the impostumous swelling of their froathy penne for the supporting of the Churches imaginary Inuisibility D. REYNOLDS I pray you Neuserus proceed therein since obscure passages in any kind of learning not explayned do often suggest tacit obiections perplexing and intricating the iudgments of the weake and ignorant NEVSERVS I will And first for example are vsually obiected those of Elias when he sayd relictus sum solus I am left alone As also that sentence of the Prophet deficiet hostia sacrificium the Oast and sacrifice spall cease And agayne that of the Apostle Nisi venerit discessio primum c. Except there come first a departure c. And finally that of the Apocalyps The woman must flye
most Blessed Trinity concerning which he thus speaketh The Diuinity is threefould as the three Persons be c. And from hence the reason may well be why Luther expungeth out of the Litany this verse Holy Trinity one very God haue mercy vpon vs. And hereupon he is not afraid to say that the word Trinity is but an humane inuention and soundeth coldly And finally he concludeth that his soule hateth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale For thus he writeth Anima me a odit Homousion Optimè exigerunt Ariani ne vocem illam prophanam nouam regulis fidei statuâ— liceret My very soule haâ—eth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale And the Arians not without reason required that it should not be lawfull to put this prophane and new Word meaning Homousios or consubstantialis among the rules of fayth Luthers blasphemy against the B. Trinity was such and so odious that euen Zwinglius did purposely write against Luther touching this very point 2. Touching the euent of things Luther houldeth contrary to all Christian faith that all things come to passe through a certaine Stoical and Fatal necessity for he defending this Heresy thus writeth Nullius est in manu c. It is in no mans power to thinke good or euil but al things as Wicleffs article condemned at Constance did rightly teach proceed from absolute Necessity And againe fateor articulum c. I do confesse Wicleffs article of all things comming to passe by Necessi 〈◊〉 to haue 〈◊〉 falsly condemned in the conuenticle of Constance 3. To the dishonour of Christ his Passion who was cloathed with Essentiall Maiesty and as intimating the insufficiency of it for the redemption of mankinde he teacheth that Christ not only suffered in body but also his Diuinity suffered for thus he writeth Cùm credo quod sola humana Natura pro me passa est Christus vilis noc magni praetij saluator est c. If I beleiue that only the Humane Nature of Christ suffered for me then is Christ a Sauiour but of a base and small worth and himselfe nedeth a Sauiour And Luther speaking of this point in an other place thus reprehendeth the Zwinglians The Zwinglians did contend against me most pertinaciously that the Diuinity of Christ could not suffer A doctrine so blasphemous as that it was not refuted only by the Zwinglians in Luthers dayes as himselfe confesseth but also euen by Beza such chaynes you see of blasphemies one stil following an other are wouen in Luthers faith and Religion 4. Touching the Administration of the Word and Sacraments Luther teacheth that al men and women also haue authority power to administer them These be his owne words The first office of a Priest is to preach the Word c. But this is common to al Next to baptize and this also al may do euen women c. The third office is to consecrate bread and wine But this also is common to al no lesse then Priests And this I auouch by the authoritie of Christ himselfe saying do this in remembrance of me This Christ speake to al then present and to come afterwards If then that which is greater then al be giuen indifferently to al Men and Women I meane the word and Baptisme then that which is lesse I meane to consecrate the supper is also giuen to them Thus Luther Yea Luther proceeded so farre herein as that as D. Couell witnesseth he was not afraid to affirme that the Sacraments were effectual though administred by Satan himselfe With D. Couell agreeth the Protestant Hospintan thus writing Lutherus â—o vsque progreditur c. Luther proceedeth so farre herein that he maintained the Sacrament to be a true Sacrament â—â—iamsi a Diabolo conficeretur though it were to be consecrated by the Deuil 5. For absolute deniall of tempor all Magistrats an Heresy indifferently condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants we finde Luther thus to write Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate But euery one is to other equally subiect c. And agayne As Christ cannot suffer himselfe to be tyed bound by lawes c. So also ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them 6. Touching Luthers deniall of certayne parcels of Scripture And first the Epistle of S. Iames is called by Luther Contentious swelling strawy and vnworthy an Apostolicall spirit The booke of the Apocalyps is also reiected by Luther by the acknowledgment of Bullenger thus writing hereof Doctour Martin Luther hah as it were sticked this booke with a sharpe preface set before his first Edition in Duch for which his iudgment good and learned Men were offended with him Hereunto I will adde Luthers contempt of Moyses and some of the Apostles Against Moyses he thus writeth Habuit Moyses labia in faecunda irata c. And againe Moyses habuit labia diffusa felle ira Touching the Apostles he thus controuleth S. Peter S. Peter did liue and teach extra verbum Dei besides the word of God Thus we may see how no wynde was able to weigh downe the eares of Luthers pryde 7. Luther also taught an Heresy whereby the Propagation of Christian Religion is much endangered to wit That it was not lawfall to wage warre against the Turke an errour which enen the greatest Idolatours of Luther haue mainly condemned Luthers words are these Praeliari contra Turcas est repugnare Deo visitanti iniquitates nostras per illos To wage warre against the Turke is to resist God visiting our sinnâ—s by theÌ„ A point so confessed that Erasmus thus writeth of the consequence and effects of Luthers doctrine Many of the Saxons following herein that firct doctrine of Luther denyed to Caesar and King Ferdinand ayde against the Turke c. And said they had rather fight for a Turke not Baptized then for a Turke Baptized meaninge the Emperour Thus Erasmus 8. Touching Fayth and good workes Luther taught an Heresy disallowed by all learned Protestants For Luther teacheth as followeth It is impiety to affirme that fayth without Charity iustifyeth not Nay Luther proceedeth further thus writing Fides nisi sit sine c. Except fayth be without the least good works it doth not iustify nay it is not fayth And thereupon the more to debase good works he thus saith Works take their goodnes of the Worker Aud no worke is disallowed of God vnlesse the authour thereof be disallowed before Here now I end touching Luther Where you may perceaue Neuserus that this your Sunne of which you afore vaunted prooues to be but a fading Comet the fyery zeale you spoake of but a turbulent combustion seâ— on flame by Luther in subiects minds against all Christian Magistracy and the reflux which Luther as you pretend caused in the Church of Rome was instantly attended on with a flux and
doth not suffice It cannot be but they which are of the true Church must by the profession of the Truth make themselfs knowne in such sort that by their profession and practise they may be discerned from other men A point further receauing it most warrantable truth from Truth himselfe who thus threatneth Whosoeuer shall deny me before Men him I will deny before my Father in Heauen And from hence it is that the Protestants themselues thinke they are obliged in conscience not to be present at the Seruice or Masse of the Catholicke Church or to participate with the Catholicks in their Sacraments Which kind of Recusancy is punctually taught by D. Willet Melancthon Peter Martyr Bucer and Caluin But to draw towards an end of this your pretext of persecution The same is refuted euen from the nature of the Church delineated in Gods holy Word and accordingly acknowledged by you Protestants For if the Church of God must at all tymes be visible and eminent as is largly proued by vs all in the first part of this discourse and must be eminent in so full a manner as that we are commanded to repayre to the Church in all our spirituall Necessityes according to those words of our Sauiour Tell the Church c. And if the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen to the end of the World euer and at all tymes be practized in the Church of Christ How then can the Church but by these meanes become most visible or rather most radiant The force of which reason I will conclude with the words of D. Humfrey thus wryting Dum ministri docent alij discunt illi sacramenta administrant hi communicant omnes Deum inuocant fidem suam profitentur Qui ista non videt talpa est caecâ—or Whyles the Ministers do teach and others do heare whyles these Men do administer the Sacraments those do communicate or participate of them whyles all do call vpon God and professe their fayth He that doth not see these things is more blynd then a moale NEVSERVS Haue you not often obserued Michaeas how a little qu 〈…〉 tity of copper in a counterfeyte Coyne And yet neyther is the corne or gould extinguished or annihilated But that it may be truly sayd the Corne and chaffe is mingled together the gould and Copper moulted together And yet neyther is the Corne chaffe nor the gould copper Why then by the like analogy proportion may it not be here auerred that the Protestant Church was in former ages in the Papacy the Papcy was in the Protestant Church and yet the Protestant Church was not the Papacy Which being granted freeth our Church from an absolute Inuisibility at least from an vtter extinction and ouerthrow of it in those former Popisn tymes And to my remembrance I haue read certayne learned Protestants expressing this point not much differently from my words for I find M. Parkins thus to allude to this saying The Church of Rome may be said to be in the Church of God and the Church of God in the Church of Rome with whom D. Whitakers seemes to conspyre thus wryting Ecclesia ver a fuit in Papatu sed Papatus non fuit Ecclesia vera And with these former euen Beza besids others doth agree saying voluit Deus in Papatu seruare Ecclesiam et si Papatus non est Ecclesia Which answere is thought so sufficient and choaking as that the former learned Protestant M. Parkings much resteth vpon it thus euen exulting This answere serues to stop the mouths of Papists who demaund of vs where the Church was fourescore yeres before Luther for they are answered that our Church hath bene since the dayes of the Apostles and that in the very middest of the Papacy MICHAEAS O how ingenious and pregnant Niuserus is Nouelisme in fayth spining like the silke worme out of it owne wombe such fine threeds of wit But alas these threeds are too weake to detayne and hould the Aduersary This diuersion of yours rather then answere consisteth of a froath of words artificially put togeather And indeed it partly resembleth your own former similitude For the matter as I may say of it is euen 〈…〉 ase mettall guilded ouer with a specious show of mysticall phrazes For you Protestants seing you are not able to instance particularly in any one man during so many ages as from the Apostles dayes to Luther who was a perfect Protestant much lesse to instance in the administration of the Word and Sacraments And also perceauing by Experience that it soundeth in the eare couldly and indeede harshly to grant in plaine and direct words that the Protestant Church during all those ages was wholy extinct and vanished away out of the world and further remembring that great huge burdens are better remooued by sleight of witty Engins then by strength haue at length resolued to deliuer this your doctrine or Position in an affected and obscure phraze thereby as vnder aueyle or clowd to shadow the falshood thereof saying as aboue you alledge The Church is in the Papacy the Papacy is in the Church And yet the Church is not the Papacy Thus do you here imitate physitians who giue physicke to delicate bodyes not in the grosse substance but eyther in infusion or extraction This curious frame of speech maks as I sayd a glorious show at the first but examine it and it presently resolues to nothing like vnto the lightning which is an eminent Obiect to the eye and yet it no sooner commeth then it vanisheth Now for the better discouery displaying of this your sleight you are here to conceaue that the sense of these words is not that the Protestant Church had in those tymes a latent and hidden being in Catholicke Countreyes without hauing entercourse or Communion with the then knowne and visible Church in the Sacraments For so the true Church could not be said to be in the Papacy no more then at this day in respect of it like aboadin Turkish Countreyes it can be sayd to be in Turcisme Therefore the particular manner of this strange and stupendious mixture together for externall Society like chaffe and Corne in due heape or copper and gould in one coyne is truly expressed by Osiander the Protestant in these words Quod semper sub Papatu aliqui pij homines fuerint qui errores Pontificios idolatrica sacra improbarunt temetsi id non semper profiteri and ebant nemo negat No man denyeth but that there were euer vnder the Papacy some holy men who disliked the Errors of the Popes and their Idolatrous worshipps although they durst not openly professe so much Nisi ardere aut ad minimum exulare velint except they would burne for their Religion or at least suffer banishment And yet the said Protestant more fully Animum ad ist a poÌ„tificia idolatrica sacra non applicusrunt
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
we shall losse you so soone Only I would entreate you to haue in your discourses wheresoeuer you shall hereafter come a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church of all the true and constant members thereof And herewith Worthy Michaeas I take my last farewell MICHAEAS M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake answerably to your desarts Nobly and with great respect Since you are a Man whose barke is richly fraught with learning Morality And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute I do wholy ascribe them to your want of a good cause not to your want of good parts And if there haue bene any words misplaced by vs on eyther syde sâ—t the thought of them vanish away since they were spoken Antagonisticeâ— and in heaâ—e of disputation And so in all kindnes Christian charity I leaue you with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church As for you two fagotts of Hell-fire I grant my eyes euen sparkle forthâ—râ—ge in behoulding of you And I account contrary to the place of the burning bush the place wherin you stand to be cursed ground â—or since your Sunne is so fâ—rie of you I meane your excepted false Messias what can you looke but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation Therefore I will take leaue with you in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas the Magitian and what greater Magicke then for one to be enchaâ—ted to beleiue that Christ is a seâ—ucer O you full of all subtilty and mischeife the Sonns of the Deuill enemyes of all iustice who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord Adieu OCHINVS You enioy Michaeas the liberty of your Tongue but â—age you well NEVSERVS Let him go I will nor take leaue with him such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS Now M. Doctour Michaeas is gonne And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs without feare of being ouerheard I know that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas but your selfe also rest much disedisyed at our abâ—enunciation of Christianity But M. Doctour come to the point We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament which must euer remayne sacred permanent and 〈…〉 uiolable do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias must euer be visible knowne and conspicuous and must in all ages without any intermission enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments And this is abundantly confessed not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation but by all learned men whosoeuer We now notwithstanding such necessity therof cannot but confesse that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ at leâ—st in the Protestant Church how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias which is so gloriously deliueaâ—ed with the penalls of the Prophets Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises then that the Church of Christ as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles is not the true Church of God and consequently that Christ is the true Messias Sauiour of the World except we will grant which I neuer will the Papists Church as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it to be the sole Church of God Therefore so farre as toucheth my selfe I do renounce my former Christian fayth and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision and will instantly write a booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues aunciently practized by the â—ewes in the old Testament though now by Christians houlden as vnlawfull and altogether proâ—â—ibited NEVSERVS By the Lord of Heauen I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church which my Soule abhorrs to do For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church It cannot be made good notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards through which wee spooke to Michaeas and plainly confese the truth herein And here M. D. to take a short view of all the discours passed and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs We cannot but obserue that the Exemples produced by you were most insufficient first because they were no Protestants at all Secondly in that admitting them for Protestants they but only serue as Michaeas well noted to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake any one confessed Example of Protestancy for the space of six hundred yeers at the least Againe when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe and all for the sauing of our Churches honour As first to pretend though God knowes a silly pretence that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny vtterly extinct That fayling then we made show for in our priuat iudgments we could not really thinke it That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution That playne answere not seruinge then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution in a certaine obscure and darke sentence to wit That the Church was in the Papacy the Papacy in the Church and yet the Church was not the Papacy a forme of words as Michâ—as truly â—â—id forged by vs Protestants only to cast a â—yst in the eyes of the vnlearned The next we fled for our surest but indeed sham full refuge vnto the Scripture pretending our Church to be consonant to it and therefore euer visible a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke After all which if you remember M. D. your selfe did politikly touch vpoÌ„ that opinion though not with any greate approbation of it which for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine teacheth that the Papists Church and Ours are all one But did you marke how Michaeas neuer ceased till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing from our owne learned Mens penns the mayne question now controuerted among vs Now M. D. seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus and ame determined to haue this Country from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate where
thereof Lastly this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament and applyed to the New is most inconsequent Both because the New Testament is better established then the old seing to it is promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church And also it is styled The pillar and foundation of truth And finally in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God as the People of the Christians are And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust as Melchisedech Iob Cornelius the Centurion the Eueuch of Queen of Candice c. This ended this Triffler in pag. 6. seuerall other places meÌ„tioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias saying relictu sum solus But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue In the next place to wit pag. 10. he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ during his aboade here vpon earth and tyme of his Passion but all this most impertinently seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne and then for euer after to continue till the worlds end after the descending of the Holy Ghost and not before This done the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere that these Persecutions according to the nature of persecution were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible as that it became thereby most visible seeing none are persecuted but visible Men And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians euen to this very hower they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes both of Catholicks and Protestants In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit The whole World did sâ—ght and wounder that it was Arian from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance For here First Ierome calleth that by the figâ—â—e Synecdoche the whole World which is but a part of the World S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word Arian in a secundarye signification For here he calleth them improperly and Abusiue Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine and were deceaued by the Arians through their mistaking of the greeke Word Omosios and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour did instantly correct the same and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance Thus we se the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians at that very tyme. Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two For thus he wryteth The Church for any externall show was brought low for if any body held it vp it was Athanasius who then played least in sight and durst not appeare Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking for though it be granted that Athanasius in regard of his feruour and learning was more persecuted by the Arians then any other Bishop yet to â—auer that himselfe alone or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme is most improbable or rather most absurd This is proued first from the Councell which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy Now how can it be conceaued that all the said Bishopps speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme excepting only Athanasius should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution externally profes the Arian Heresy Againe the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria did wryte to Pope Paelix the Second of that name wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes the Arians Thirdly the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of Aâ—hanasius and Libertus and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius and well knowne to hym did refute and contradict ex professo the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings As for example Basil Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyssene Cyrill of Ierusalem Hilarius Ambrose Epiphanius and some others Now in respect of the Premisses can it be but dreamed that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes but only Athanasius or Liberius Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples authorityes descendeth to Reason thus arguing Faith doth much consist of things which are not seene Therefore seing we beleiue the Holy Church as an article of our fayth it followeth that it needs not to be euer eminently visible or apparently sensible vnto vs. Learnedly concluded Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter he is to vnderstand that in the Church of God there is something to be seene and something to be beleiued We do see that company of men which is the Church and therein the Church is euer visible But that that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God that we see not but only beleiue Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man which is Christ the Sonne of God but that he was the Sonne of God this the Apostles did not see but only beleiue In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed that she should flye into the Wildernes affirming that by the Woman is vnderstood the Church which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution To this I answere first this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations cannot as euidently to vs men proue any thing seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions prophecyes many of them being yet vnaccomplished and figuratiue speeches we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense meaning of them Secondly What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations differently from the vrging of
refuge enforced to compart hearein with the very Anâ—baptists fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture to the testimony of Gods Spirit and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost Sortably hearto we find that the foresaid D. Whitakers to reâ—er others to the Margent thus wryteth Omnes linguarum imperiti c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues though they cannot â—udge of places whether they be truly translated or not yet they apprâ—â—e and allowe the doctrine being instructed by the Holy Ghost Thus he O you sensles Galatians who haue bewitched you For may not any â—obler Wibstar or other Mecanical fellow as by experience we daily find they do flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy â—ho 〈…〉 Which being granted what Heresies so absurd which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne And thus far to proue that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments which resulteth as aboue is said by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ within which we are bound vnder payne of eternall damnation to implant our selses I will suâ—uect to thâ— Premisses this pertinent aâ—imaduersion following It is this When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church And they answeâ—riâ—g that that Church is the true Church which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments Now heare I auer that this description of Notes is but our owne question reâ—urâ—ed vs back in other tearms and consequently but a Sophisme â—â—nsistiâ—g in an idle circulation of the same poynt inâ—ested with a new forme of words For when I demand which is the true Church I vertually implicitly and according to the immediate meaning of my Words demauÌ„d which Church is that which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments The Protestants then answearing that that is the true Church whearein are foâ—d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments do they not giue me back my owne Question varyed in other phrazes being no other thing in sense then to say That Church which enioyeth the true preaching of the word due vse of the Sacraments is that Church which enâ—â—yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments Most absurde being but Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem iustly exibilated out of all schooles Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church Admonishing the Reader of one thing to wit that whereas S. Austin and other Doctours do say that out of the Scriptures we learne which is the Church This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture wheare the Church is but this not as from a Note of the Church which is the poynt only heare issuable but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be In this next place we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically and by supposall only That is we will imagin for the tyme that the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein Caluin thus saith Pastoribus Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours to preach the Word and administrâ—r the Sacraments Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words The ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary to the being of a Church Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme That the said Notes being present do constitute a Church being absent do subuert it Now all this being granted I confidently auer that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries since it irrephably proueth that the Protestant Church hath bene contrary to the Nature of the true Church at seuerall tymes or rather for seuerall ages together wholy extinct and annihilated Sine during many ages it hath bene vterly voyde depryued of Pastours and Doctourr to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the ProtestaÌ„t Church for many Ages concerning which subiect I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted â—ew out of which I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants First then Sebastianu Francus a Protestant heretofore alledged thus wryteth For certayne through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departuâ—e and for these thousand foure hundred yeres the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth We say that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the World In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church Caluin had iust reason as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true thus to say Factum est vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit c. It was brought to passe that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away for the space of certaine ages The perspicuity of which poynt I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages will more easely appeare if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell as taking his doctryne to be the truth The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell Thus we see that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes to wit the preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs assigning the said Notes for the Notes of the true Church Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare then the former poynt for seing it is granted that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church till the
Creatour of all flesh did suffer in flesh For our Sauiour being at his last suffer did then first institute it when â—e deliuered to his Apostles his owne body and bloud saying This is my body This is my Bloud c. With reference to which institution the Apostle calleth the table vpon which this sacrifice is made _____ to wit an Altar being deriued of the verb. _____ signifying Sacrifice But let vs see in what dialect Antiquity speaketh hereof Some few places among infinit I will heare select first then we find S Austin thus to say Quid gratius osserriaâ—t sâ—scipi possit quam câ—râ— sacrificij nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri What can be offered vp or accepted more thankfully then the flesh of our sacrifiâ— being made the body of our Priest Chrysostome thus wryteth Per id tempus Angeli Sacerdoti assident c. At that tyme the Angells draw neare vnto the Pryest and the whole order of the heauenly Powers causeth greate voyces and the place neare vnto the Alâ—â—r is full of qâ—ears of Angells in illius honorem qui inâ—molatur by reason of the honour of hym who is theare 〈…〉 d or offered vp which thing we may fully beleiue vel extanto illi sacrificio quod iunc peragitur in regard of so great a sacrifice then performed Gregory Nyssene Dominus praeoccupans impetum iudeorum c. Our Lord preuenting the violence of the Iewes being both Priest and Lambe made hymselfe a sacrifice But thou demandest of me when this did happen Euen then when he gaue to his disciples his body to eate and his bloud to drink Optatus Miliuitanus thus discourseth Quid est tam sacrilegum quam altaria â—ei in quibus aliquando nos obtulistis frangere radre 〈…〉 e in quïbus vot a Populi membra Christi partata sâ—ni c What is so sacrilegious as to breake or scrape or to remoue and take away the Altâ—â—s of God vpon which your selfs somtymes haue offered in the which the vowes of the People and the members of Christ are borne And further the said Father Quid est altari nisi sides corporis sanguints Christi What is the Altar but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ S. Ambrose Etsi nunc Christus non videatur offerre ipse tamen â—ffertur in terris cum corpus eius offertur And againe Cum Sacrisicamus Christus est presens Christus immolatur When we do sacrifize Christ is present Christ is sacrifized or immolated Ephrem Quid scrutaris inscrutabilia c Why dosâ— thou search into things not to be searched after c. Be thou faythfull and innocent and participate thou of the immaculate body of thy Lord with a most full fayth being assured that thou dost eate the whole Lambe Cyprian Caena disposita inter Sacramentales epuâ—as c. The supper being prepared the auncient and new Institutions did meete together among the Sacramentall 〈◊〉 eats And the Lambe which auncient Tradition did set vpon the table being consâ—med the Maister doth giue to his Disciples an inconsumption meate Tertulian and Dionisius make frequent mention of Altars and consequently of Sacrifice To conclude this passage as auoyding prolexity Eyppolitus Martyr introduceth Christ speaking to Bishops and Pryests in these words Venite Pontifices Sacerdotes qui praeciosum corpus sanguinem meum quoâ—die immolastis Come hither youâ— hâ—â—fe Pryests and other Pryests who haue dayly immoluted and offered vp my precious body and bloud Now M. Vice Chancelour in regard of the perspicâ—ity of thes sentences of the former Fathers and of diuers others such authorityes of the said and other â—athers of the Primatiue Church heare through br 〈…〉 y preteâ—nitted It is the lesse wonder that your owne learned Protestants do ingenuously confesse the truth of those Fathers iudgments hearin For to omit that the Centurists do particularly charge S. Ambrose with this very phraze Massam 〈…〉 ere vsed by vs Pryests at this very day do wee not fine Calumn himselfe thus to acknoledge of them in generall Veteres illos video c. I do see that those auncient Fathers did wrest the memory of the Lords supper otherwyse then was agreeing to the institution of the Lord. Since the Fathers supper did beare the show and resemblance of a renewed Oblation c they imitating more nearely the 〈◊〉 maner of sacrificing then either Christ did ordayne or the nature of the Gospell would suffer And hereupon it is that Caluin in an other place thus chargeth the Fathers The Fathers did adulterate the supper of the Lord by adding of Sacrifice vnto it Neither can theese words of Caluin be restrayned to those Fathers only who liued either in the midest or towards the end of the Primatiue Church First because they are deliuered without exception of the Fathers in generall Secondly by reason that other learned Protestants do charge the Fathers some of them liuing immediatly after the Apostles others 〈…〉 g euen in the dayes of the Apostles with the said doctrine of sacrifice Thus consorting hearto we find Sebastianus Francus an eminent Protestant to vse theese words Statim post Apostolos omnia inuersa sunt c. Presently after the Apostles departure all things were inuerted c. Et caena Domini in sacrificium transfâ—rmata est and the supper of the Lord was changed into a sacrifice But Hospinian that famous Protestant useth higher in tyme thus confessing I am tum primo illo seculo viuentibus adhuc Apostolts c. Even in the very first age the Apostles yet liuing the deuill labored to seduce Men more about this Sacrament meaning touching the â—athers supposed adding of sacrifice to the Sacrament of the Eucharist Then about Baptisme withdrawing Men from the first former thereof Thus farre of the Fathers cleare sentences and of the learned Protestants confessing no lesse touching the doctrine of Sacrifice VICEC-HANCELOVR It lâ—tle preiudizeth vs Michaas who professe the Ghospell though the Fathers did teach the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse For seing it is granted both by vs and you Papists that diuers Fathers erred in other paticular poynts why might they not alyke erre in the doctrine of the Sacrifice And seing we are not obliged to embrace their other acknowledged Errours why should we be forced to entertaine this their errour MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour the difference is great and subiect euen to a vulgar iudgment For we grant with you that some particular Fathers did e 〈…〉 certaine poynts yet were those their errours presently condemned and written against by other Ortodoxall Fathers Thus for exemple did Austin Ierome and Epiphanius wryte against Origen teaching that the Deuills were at the last day to be saued against Tertullian denying second Mariadges against Cyprian mantayning Rebaptization Now heare wee grant that such particular Fathers might and did