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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
word_n	contain_v	scripture_n	tradition_n	3,414	5	9.4390	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85036	Truth maintained, or Positions delivered in a sermon at the Savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. By Thomas Fuller, B.D. late of Sidney Colledge in Cambridge. The particulars are these. I That the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers. II That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations. III How farre private Christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation. IIII What parts therein are only to be acted by the Supreme power. V Of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience. VI That no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from God, on men in these dayes. VII That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever. VIII What advantage the Fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them. IX That no new light, or new essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age. X That the doctrine of the Churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. With severall letters, to cleare the occasion of this book.	Fuller, Thomas, 1608-1661.; Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647. Examinations. Selections.; Fuller, Thomas, 1680-1661. Sermon of reformation. Selections.	1643 (1643)	Wing F2474; Thomason .36[9]; ESTC R23497	61,984	103

He that sees far must either have a good sight or a cleare light and sure in this age wee have both Those errours which our Fathers saw for dimme truthes we see for Herisies so surely both our eyes and our light are better for the light which our Fathers have in their lamps can discover but so much to us as it did to them and we know our discovery is such as wee are able to see the shadow which followed them even that Mistery which was working in their dayes both in Prelacy and ceremony who will deny but that the cloud of Antichristianisme was thicke in their times and then the light could not be so glorious as now when those couds grow thinner and more attenuated by the preaching of the Gospel TREATISE To cut off all occasion and pretence of caviling wee will shew God willing in what respect the Fathers for knowledge excelled and exceeded us and in what respect wee modernes goe beyond them They had a threefold advantage above us 1. Of sight 2. Of light 3. and of a nearer object First Of a better sight Being men of eminent natural parts improved with excellent learning and to the Easterne fathers the Greeke tongue the language of the New Teastament was naturall so that it costeth us much paines and sweat but to come to the place whence they started Secondly Of a brighter light As their constancie in persecution was great so no doubt the heate of their zeale was attended with a proportionable light and heavenly illumination God doing much for them that suffer much for him Especially in those points wherein they encountred hereticks they were more then men and went beyond themselves as St. Athanasius against the Arians St. Augustine against the Pelagians and Donatists from whom our moderne Brownists differ no more then the same man differs from himselfe in new cloathes 3. Of a nearer Object They living closer to Christs times could therefore better understand the sence of the Church in the doctrine delivered to the Apostles Here we must know that Apostles and Apostolick men as they wrote Gods word in their Epistles and Gospels for the profit of all posterity so for the instruction of their present age they also * traditioned it in their Preaching by word of mouth to the people of those times not that they delivered any thing viva voce contrary or differtent from what they wrote or that as the Papists stile for their traditions they supplyed and enjoyned any thing as necessary to salvation which otherwise was wanting in the Scripture but the selfe same things which they wrote in the New Testament they also delivered in their Sermons and in their Preaching delated upon them wherefore the prime primative age having as I may say two strings to their bow Scripture and Preaching must needes bee allowed to have had the clearest apprehention of the meaning of heavenly misteries and as the children * of Israell served the Lord all the dayes of Iehossuah and all the dayes of the Elders who outlived Iehossuah who had seene all the great workes of the Lord which he did for Israell in like manner wee may conclude that the greatest puritie and the clearest light of the Church lasted so long as any within sight hearing or memory of Christ or his Apostles preaching or miracles did survive Now to hold the scales even we in like manner have a three fold advantage over the Fathers First a degree of experimentall light more then they had or could have having seene the whole conduct Mannaging and Progresse of Religion since their times whereby with a litle helpe of history a Devine who is under sixtie in age may be a bove sixteene hundred in experience Secondly we have the benefits of the Fathers bookes a mightie advantage if we were as carefull to use it to Gods Glory as we are ready to bragg of it for our owne credit And here I must complaine of many mens lazinesse Indeed a learned man * compareth such as live in the latter times in respect of the Fathers to Dwarffes standing on Giants Shoulders But then if we will have profitt by the fathers learning we must take paines to mount to the tope of their Shoulders But if like idle Dwarfes we still do but stand on the ground our heads will not teach to their girdles it is not enough to through the bookes of the fathers togeather on an heape and then making their workes our footestoolle to stand on the outside and Covers of them as if it were no more but VP and RIDE boasting how far we behold beyond them No if we expect to gett advantage by their writings we must open their bookes read understand compare digest and meditate on them And I am affraid many that least looke into the Fathers boast most that they looke beyond them Thirdly Wee have the advantage of a darknesse removed by Gods goodnesse from our eyes which in some matters did dimme the sight of the Fathers Namely the mistery of Iniquity which wrought in their times now is taken away in the Protestant Church That Bramble of Rome soone will it prick which will be a thorne which afterwards Lorded it over the Vine Olive and figtree beganne very timely to play his parte And the Man of sin then but an infant and every thing is pretty when it is yonge was unawares dandled on the knees of many a devout Monke and rockt in the cell of many an holy hermit who litle suspected that then voluntary sequestring themselves to enjoy heavenly thoughts would by degrees degenerate to be in after ages the cover of Pride lust and lazinesse Now seing this man of sinne is dead already in the Protestant Church and hath a consumption attended with the Hecktick Fever in all other places the taking away of Popish superstition may justly be accounted the third advantage which our age hath By the way we must take heed of a fault whereof many are guilty For some are ready to challenge every thing in the practise of the Fathers which doth not please them presently to be Popish and pretend they tast superstition in whatsoever themselves distast O say they the Fathers lived when the mystery of iniquity did worke and hence they infer that it is evidence enough without further tryall to condemne any cerimonies used by them because they were used by them The way indeede to make Short Assises but Perjur'd Iudges whereas it is not enough to say but to shew that they are superstitious to anotomize and dissect the Popery conteined in them demonstrating where it crosseth the word of God wheras on the contrary all wise and charitable men ought to esteeme the practises of the primitive Church not only to be innocent but usefull and honourable till they be legally convicted to be otherwise If any object that the Fathers had another disadvantage that besides the spreading of Popery other Heresies did also spring and sprout apace

in that time to the darkening of the light of the truth let them know that such opposition only gave truth the opportunity to tryumph and the teeth of Error filled it the brighter Heresies In eodem seculo quo natae damnatae equos err●res patrum aetas tulit eos sustulit condemnig them in Synods and Councells And in this point to be an equall Empire betwixt the ancients and us we must consider that we live in the Later age and commonly bad humors which have visited the whole body do settle at last in the leggs and lowest parts with us Sects and Schismes do also abound and some Heresies first set a broach in the Primitive times now runne a Tilt with all their dredgs in our dayes Thus we see how the Fathers were both before and behind us for knowledge and wee therein both above and beneath them in severall respects See the wisdome and goodnesse of God how he hath sweely tempered things together So good that all have some so wise that none have all And how easie may this controvercy be accommodated whether ours or the Fathers light were the greatest where if the difference be but cleerly understood the parties are fully reconciled And now I conceive having answered you in grosse I need not apply my selfe to any perticulers of your examination EXAMINER The Gospel doth worke M and wind its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelation many propheticall truthes were sealed up and those not unsealed but successively and as our Generations after may have a Starre rising to them which we have not so we may have Beames N and Radiations and shootings which our fathers had not The Apostles O had not all their truths and light revealed at once some early some late some not till the holy Ghost was bestowed Revelations are graduall and the vaile is not taken off at once nor in one age We honour the Fathers as men in their Generations famous their light was glorious in its degree and quality but they had not all the degrees attainable they had a light for their owne times and we for ours and who cannot thinke that we are rising into that Age P wherein God shall powre his Spirit upon all flesh and wherein the light of the Moone shall be as the light of the Sunne and the light of the Sunne as the light of Seaven dayes TREATISE You hover in Generalls and seeme to me desirous that your Reader should understand more then you are willing to expresse my opinion breifly is this That no new Revelations or new infused light in essentiall points of Religion is bestowed on any now-adayes but that the same light hath in as plentifull a measure beene given to former ages especially to the age wherein the Apostles lived and when the faith was once delivered to the Saints and by them sett downe in the Scripture and that then so perfectly and compleatly that it needed not the accessions of any future Revelations I confesse that men by searching the Scripture that oyle will never leave increasing as long as more vessells be still brought and diligent prayer to God may and do arive daily at a clearer understanding of many places of Gods word which they had not before These words Thou art Peter and on this rock will I build my Church and that Place this is my body are now more truly and plainly understood then they were 200. yeares agoe when the Popes supremacy was as falsly founded on the former as transubstantiation was unjustly inferred from the latter However these were not Revelations of new truthes but reparations of ould For the prime primative Church received and embraced the same The Saints * in the time of Popery Sung as it were a new song a Song not new but renewed not new in it selfe but perchance to the hearers and such are many truthes which are preached in our age in the Protestant Church They that maintaine the contrary opinion of moderne revelations of new essentiall truths doe a three fold mischeife therein First they lay an aspertion of ignorance and imperfection of knowledge on the Apostles themselves and this is no lesse then Scandalum Magnatum Secondly they much unsettle men in matters of Religion and produce a constant inconstancy and scepticall hovering 〈◊〉 all oppinions and as the Athenians erected an Altar to the unknowne God so men must reserve a blancke in their soules therin to write truths as yet unknown when they shall be revealed Thus men will never know when their creede is ended and will daily waver in that truth which they have in possession whilst they waite for a clearer and firmer as yet in revertion Thirdly they fixe on the Scripture an imputation of imperfection and such as talke of new revelations of truth may well remember the passage in the Old Revelation * If any man shall add unto these things God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this booke And it seemes to mee all one in effect whether men peece the Scriptures with old Traditions or new Revelations and thus the Papist and Anabaptist are agreed like men in a circle going so farre from each other with their faces till their backes meete together And I professe I should sooner trust a tradition containing in it nothing crosse to the Scripture and comming to mee recommended from the primitive times and countenanced with the practise of the Church in all ages then a new upstart Revelation The best is wee have no neede to trust either whilst we have Gods word alone sufficient to relie on The result of all is this We have now a-dayes no new truths revealed but old ones either more fairely cleared or more firmely assented to no new Starres of Revelation arise in any hearts If any such doe burne and blaze there they are but commerts which will fade at last In a word this age is not happie with any new truths but guiltie of many old lyes Yea it rendereth it suspitious that some men are going about somewhat which they cannot justifie by the old knowne lawes of God because they beginne to broach preparative doctrines Introductorie of new revelations Distrusting as it seemes the Scripture the old Iudge as not for their turnes because they provide for an Appeale to an other Vmpirer and if those are justly accounted dangerous members in the Church who would bring in Innovations in Ceremonies then pretenders of new Revelations in Essentiall points of Doctrine are so much the greater offenders by how much Doctrine is more necessary and fundamentall in a Church then ceremonies But I will answer some passages in your Examination particularlie M. The Gospel doth worke and winde its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelotions Distinguish we heare betwixt matters of fact and matters of faith Matters of fact being foretold in the Scripture are best understood when they are accomplished In which respect

without or beside it And as hereby they are heightned to an Heroicall degree of Piety so though sometimes we may say of them in a Rhetoricall expression that they goe beyond themselves yet they never goe beyond their calling nor never goe beyond Gods Commandements Now if any shall pretend that they have an extraordinary excitation to make a publique Reformation without the consent of the supreame Power to whom by Gods law it belongs such an excitation cannot come from the holy Ghost For if the spirit of the Prophets be subject to the Prophets much more is it subject to the God of the Prophets and to the law of that God And truly Sir this passage of extraordinary incitations as it is by you rawly laid downe and so left containeth in it seed enough if well or rather ill husbanded to sow all the Kingdome with sedition especially in an age wherein the Anabaptist in their actions beaten out of the field by Gods Word doe daily slye to this their Fort of extraordinary excitations And you may observe when God gave extraordinary excitations quo ad regulam stirring up men to doe things contrary to the received rule of his Commandements then such excitations were alwayes attended with extraordinary operations Phinehas who killed Cosby and Zim●y could stay the plague with his prayer and Eliah who cursed the Captaines with their fifties could cause fire to come downe on them from Heaven It appeares this his curse was pronounced without malice because inflicted by a miracle It is lawfull for such to call for fire who can make fire come at their call and would nore would kindle discord on Earth till first they fetcht the sparks thereof from Heaven Neither doe we proudly tempt Gods providence but truly trye such mens pretended extraordinary incitations if when they wander from Gods Commandements in their Actions and plead inspirations we require of them to prove the truth of such inspirations by working a miracle Now Sir you being as it seemes an opposite to Prelacy would make strange worke to put downe one Ordinary in a Diocesse and set up many extraordinaries in every Parish And for ought I know if some pretend extraordinary excitations publikely to reforme against the will of the supreame Power such as side with the supreame Power may with as much probability alleadge extraordinary excitations to oppose and crosse the others Reformation and so betwixt them both our Church and State will be sufficiently miserable And now Sir remember what you said in the last Paragraffe To the law saith the Scripture and to the Testimony to such Judges we may safely appeale from all your speciall excitations extraordinary Incitations and christian Inspirations B In the building of the Temple you shall see in Ezra and Nehemiah such workings of God when the people were gathered together as one man they spake to Ezra the Scribe to bring the Booke of● the law of Moses The unanimous consent of so many we acknowledge to be Gods worke O that we might see the like agreement in England where the people are so farre from being gathered together as one man that almost every one man is distracted in his thoughts like the times and scattered from himselfe as if he were many people Well they spake to Ezra to bring the Booke of he law what of all this C Here the people put on even Ezra to his duty And little speaking would spurre on him who of himselfe was so ready to runne in his calling But I pray what was this Ezra who were these people Ezra was indeed a Priest a learned Scribe of the law who brought up a party out of Babylon to Jerusalem armed with a large patent and Commission from Artaxerxes The people here were the whole body of the Jewish Church and State together with Zerobabel the Prince and Jeshuah the high Priest who by leave from the Persian King had the chiefe managing of spirituall and temporall matters And judge how little this doth make for that purpose to which you alleadge it that from hence private persons may either make the supreame power to reforme or doe it without his consent Had you free leave of the whole Scripture to range in and could the fruit of your paines find out no fitter instance for your purposes EXAMINER And whereas you say Reformation is of those duties that are D impaled in for some particular persons I answer this were a grand designe if you could heighten E Reformation into such a holy prodigy as you would of late the Church into the Prelacy and F Clergy and excluded the Layty as a prophane G Crew and to be taught their distance Luther H will tell you this is one of the Roman engines to make such an holy businesse like the mountaine in the law not to be touc●t or approacht to but by Moses alone Thus you might take off many good Workemen and honest l Labourers in the Vineyard whom Christ hath hired and sent in and to whom he hath held out his Scepter as Ahasuerus to Ester TREATIS D And whereas you say Reformation is of those duties that are impaled in for some particular persons It appeares that publike Reformation is so impaled for whereas every man is commanded to observe the Sabbath honour his Parents and every man forbidden to have other Gods worship Images take Gods Name in vaine kill steale c. Yet the supreame Power alone in Scripture is called on for publike Reformation and no private person as Saint Austin hath very well observed E I answer this were a grand designe if you could heighten Reformation into such an holy Prodigy I need not heighten it which is so high a worke of it selfe that our longest armes cannot reach it though we stand on the tip-toes of our best desires and endeavours till God shall first be pleased to send us a peace A prodigy it is not not long since you tearmed it an extraordinary businesse yet if it be performed whilst warre lasteth it is a worke of the Lord and may justly seeme mervallous in our eyes F As you would of late the Church into the Prelacy and the Clergy When and where did I doe this I ever accounted that the Cetus fi●●l●um the Congregation of the faithfull was Gods Church on earth Yet I often find the Church represented in generall Counsels by the Prelacy and Clergy who are or should be the best wisest in the Church their decisions in matters of Religion interpreted and received as the resolutions of the Church in generall G And excluded the Layty as a prophane crew and to be taught their distance What honest man ever thought the Layty as Layty prophane I conceive our Kingdome would be very happy if none of the Clergy were worse then some of the Layty And I am sure that the godly Clergy are Gods Layty his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} the godly Layty are Gods Clergy his {non-Roman} {non-Roman}