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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A64146 An answer to a book entituled An account of the Church Catholike where it was before the Reformation; and whether Rome were or be the Church Catholike. Wherein is proved, that the Catholike Church never was, nor can be distinct from that which is now called, the Church of Rome. By R.T. Esquire. R. T. 1654 (1654) Wing T42; ESTC R221978 68,689 169

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this_o real_a presence_n of_o christ_n body_n must_v be_v either_o by_o a_o change_n of_o one_o substance_n into_o another_o and_o so_o consequent_o by_o that_o which_o the_o church_n call_v transubstantiation_n and_o then_o you_o will_v not_o accuse_v that_o doctrine_n for_o be_v repugnant_a to_o the_o plain_a word_n of_o scripture_n or_o else_o by_o consubstantiation_n and_o then_o why_o do_v you_o not_o adore_v it_o and_o why_o do_v you_o charge_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n with_o idolatry_n for_o adore_v christ_n wheresover_v he_o be_v corporal_o present_a since_o his_o humanity_n be_v inseparable_o and_o hypostatical_o unite_v to_o his_o divinity_n 40._o let_v we_o now_o hear_v what_o eusebius_n emissenus_fw-la say_v invisibilis_fw-la sacerdos_fw-la visibiles_fw-la creaturas_fw-la in_o substantiam_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la svi_fw-la verbo_fw-la svo_fw-la secretâ_fw-la potestate_fw-la convertit_fw-la these_o word_n be_v cite_v out_o of_o the_o author_n by_o 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54._o unless_o you_o shall_v eat_v the_o flesh_n of_o the_o son_n of_o man_n and_o drink_v his_o blood_n you_o shall_v not_o have_v life_n in_o you_o whereby_o it_o appear_v that_o the_o conjunctive_a and_o be_v to_o be_v take_v disjunctive_o for_o or_n as_o it_o be_v in_o those_o word_n of_o the_o apostle_n act._n 3._o 6._o silver_n and_o gold_n have_v i_o none_o where_o the_o sense_n be_v silver_n or_o gold_n have_v i_o none_o beside_o christ_n body_n and_o blood_n be_v entire_o contain_v under_o either_o species_n whosoever_o receive_v his_o body_n must_v also_o receive_v his_o blood_n and_o since_o blood_n be_v proper_o the_o subject_n of_o drink_v not_o of_o eat_v he_o that_o any_o way_n receive_v christ_n blood_n may_v be_v say_v to_o drink_v it_o drinking_z being_z as_o proper_o refer_v to_o the_o subject_n as_o to_o the_o action_n wh●●●fore_o though_o that_o word_n and_o be_v to_o be_v take_v conjunctive_o as_o it_o be_v not_o yet_o be_v it_o sufficient_a to_o communicate_v 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by_o the_o ancient_a father_n that_o
be_v it_o fit_a that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n who_o you_o have_v forsake_v shall_v stoop_v to_o you_o be_v she_o bind_v to_o follow_v you_o that_o have_v forsake_v she_o who_o make_v you_o judge_n of_o god_n church_n that_o you_o shall_v take_v upon_o you_o to_o charge_v the_o whole_a church_n of_o rome_n with_o error_n both_o in_o faith_n and_o manner_n by_o what_o rule_n have_v you_o do_v this_o you_o pretend_v sect._n 37._o to_o walk_v by_o a_o sure_a rule_n but_o i_o be_o sure_a you_o walk_v not_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o christ_n catholic_a church_n for_o she_o walk_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o god_n word_n interpret_v by_o universal_a and_o apostolical_a tradition_n which_o you_o contemn_v and_o laugh_v at_o but_o you_o by_o the_o rule_n of_o scripture_n interpret_v by_o your_o own_o private_a fancy_n and_o deceitful_a imagination_n 82._o now_o the_o doctor_n begin_v to_o quarrel_v with_o the_o language_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n how_o do_v they_o say_v he_o pray_v with_o the_o people_n who_o pray_v in_o a_o tongue_n the_o people_n understand_v not_o answ_n and_o why_o may_v not_o priest_n and_o people_n join_v in_o heart_n to_o god_n in_o prayer_n though_o the_o language_n of_o the_o church_n prayer_n be_v not_o understand_v by_o all_o present_a s._n paul_n confess_v 1._o cor._n 14._o 14._o that_o a_o man_n may_v pray_v in_o spirit_n in_o a_o unknown_a tongue_n though_o not_o with_o his_o understanding_n the_o priest_n and_o people_n of_o the_o jew_n can_v join_v together_o in_o prayer_n and_o prayer_n to_o god_n before_o christ_n though_o their_o service_n be_v perform_v in_o the_o hebrew_n tongue_n a_o language_n no_o more_o than_o understand_v by_o the_o vulgar_a jew_n than_o the_o latin_a be_v now_o by_o the_o vulgar_a christian_n why_o then_o may_v not_o the_o christian_a priest_n and_o people_n join_v together_o in_o prayer_n though_o the_o church_n service_n be_v perform_v in_o a_o language_n which_o some_o of_o the_o vulgar_a christian_n that_o be_v present_a understand_v not_o the_o hebrew_n greek_a and_o latin_a tongue_n wherein_o only_o the_o church_n service_n have_v be_v perform_v throughout_o the_o whole_a christian_a world_n ever_o since_o the_o time_n of_o the_o apostle_n be_v language_n well_o know_v to_o the_o world_n all_o man_n may_v learn_v they_o they_o be_v not_o such_o unknown_a language_n as_o those_o be_v which_o s._n paul_n speak_v of_o 1._o cor._n 14._o which_o be_v miraculous_o infuse_v into_o many_o of_o the_o primitive_a christian_n the_o end_n whereof_o be_v the_o edification_n of_o the_o church_n and_o the_o conversion_n of_o infidel_n now_o those_o tongue_n be_v neither_o understand_v by_o the_o people_n nor_o always_o by_o those_o that_o speak_v they_o as_o appear_v 1._o cor._n 12._o and_o 1._o cor._n 14._o 13._o these_o language_n miraculous_o infuse_v by_o god_n the_o primitive_a christian_n use_v in_o their_o public_a meeting_n first_o to_o instruct_v the_o ignorant_a second_o to_o convert_v infidel_n where_o their_o instruction_n and_o prayer_n be_v always_o extemporary_a according_a as_o they_o be_v immediate_o assist_v by_o god_n holy_a spirit_n but_o the_o public_a prayer_n of_o the_o church_n be_v not_o in_o such_o unknown_a language_n second_o they_o be_v say_v in_o the_o same_o language_n wherein_o the_o public_a service_n of_o the_o church_n be_v ever_o perform_v in_o all_o age_n since_o the_o apostle_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o ancient_a hebrew_n greek_a and_o latin_a missale_n which_o be_v a_o argument_n unanswerable_a that_o such_o language_n be_v not_o against_o s._n paul_n doctrine_n 1._o cor._n 14._o nor_o any_o other_o place_n of_o god_n word_n three_o the_o end_n of_o our_o present_a public_a meeting_n in_o the_o church_n be_v not_o to_o instruct_v edify_v or_o convert_v as_o those_o meeting_n be_v whereof_o s._n paul_n speak_v in_o that_o chapter_n but_o to_o offer_v up_o to_o god_n the_o tribute_n of_o prayer_n and_o praise_n that_o be_v due_a unto_o he_o as_o also_o to_o draw_v down_o god_n blessing_n both_o spiritual_a and_o temporal_a upon_o the_o people_n and_o to_o this_o end_n the_o people_n join_v with_o the_o priest_n in_o their_o exterior_a act_n of_o devotion_n and_o religion_n thereby_o profess_v their_o assent_n to_o the_o public_a prayer_n and_o praise_n of_o the_o church_n and_o can_v it_o be_v think_v necessary_a for_o those_o end_n that_o all_o the_o people_n present_a shall_v express_o understand_v every_o word_n of_o the_o church_n service_n which_o though_o it_o be_v in_o the_o vulgar_a language_n of_o every_o nation_n will_v notwithstanding_o be_v impossible_a 83._o between_o the_o eastern_a and_o western_a church_n you_o say_v sect._n 40._o there_o be_v many_o difference_n etc._n etc._n and_o yet_o for_o all_o these_o they_o grow_v up_o together_o comfortable_o and_o continue_v in_o the_o same_o body_n answ_n when_o the_o difference_n between_o the_o eastern_a and_o western_a church_n be_v concern_v such_o doctrine_n as_o be_v not_o declare_v in_o any_o general_n council_n nor_o can_v appear_v by_o the_o universal_a tradition_n or_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n they_o be_v then_o only_a error_n not_o heresy_n but_o when_o any_o of_o the_o eastern_a church_n oppose_v the_o western_a in_o such_o doctrine_n as_o appear_v either_o in_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n or_o by_o universal_a tradition_n and_o consent_n of_o nation_n or_o be_v declare_v and_o define_v in_o a_o general_n council_n they_o then_o fall_v from_o error_n into_o heresy_n and_o be_v thereby_o cut_v off_o from_o the_o catholic_a church_n your_o 41._o sect._n be_v answer_v sect._n 29._o and_o sect._n 65._o and_o sect._n 30._o 84._o in_o your_o 42._o sect._n you_o say_v that_o the_o key_n be_v give_v to_o all_o the_o apostle_n alike_o answ_n this_o i_o confess_v in_o some_o sense_n may_v be_v true_a but_o make_v nothing_o for_o you_o that_o all_o the_o apostle_n have_v the_o key_n of_o remit_v and_o retain_v sin_n be_v true_a i_o can_v grant_v also_o that_o they_o be_v all_o universal_a bishop_n yet_o they_o have_v not_o all_o equal_o the_o key_n of_o external_a government_n and_o jurisdiction_n s._n john_n at_o ephesus_n have_v not_o that_o power_n which_o s._n peter_n have_v at_o antioch_n or_o afterward_o at_o rome_n for_o whatsoever_o s._n peter_n be_v he_o have_v a_o jurisdiction_n over_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o apostle_n as_o well_o as_o the_o whole_a church_n beside_o which_o s._n john_n never_o have_v your_o 43._o sect._n have_v be_v already_o full_o answer_v sect._n 58._o in_o your_o 44._o sect._n you_o say_v out_o of_o s._n paul_n to_o timothy_n 2._o timoth._n 3_o 15._o that_o the_o scripture_n be_v able_a to_o make_v we_o wise_a unto_o salvation_n and_o that_o you_o be_v resolve_v by_o god_n grace_n to_o accept_v of_o nothing_o but_o what_o be_v deduce_v from_o thence_o or_o prove_v thereby_o according_a to_o the_o interpretation_n of_o the_o ancient_a father_n and_o counsel_n that_o of_o s._n paul_n i_o confess_v and_o withal_o very_o glad_a that_o you_o have_v make_v so_o good_a a_o resolution_n if_o you_o shall_v constant_o persist_v therein_o and_o shall_v receive_v no_o interpretation_n of_o scripture_n but_o from_o the_o ancient_a father_n counsel_n and_o the_o tradition_n of_o the_o church_n as_o vincentius_n lyrinensis_n advise_v you_o ch_n 1●_n you_o will_v soon_o become_v roman_a catholic_n your_o 45._o and_o last_o sect._n contain_v nothing_o but_o what_o have_v be_v by_o you_o say_v before_o and_o by_o i_o sufficient_o answer_v sect._n 18._o and._n sect._n 21._o 29._o etc._n etc._n i_o have_v do_v with_o your_o answer_n and_o now_o crave_v leave_v to_o speak_v somewhat_o to_o you_o by_o way_n of_o exhortation_n in_o the_o spirit_n of_o meekness_n you_o have_v hitherto_o be_v a_o guide_n to_o other_o let_v not_o a_o vain_a fear_n or_o apprehension_n of_o any_o dishonour_n that_o may_v eclipse_v your_o former_a reputation_n by_o confess_v your_o error_n and_o that_o you_o have_v be_v a_o blind_a leader_n of_o the_o blind_a come_v between_o you_o and_o your_o eternal_a salvation_n let_v not_o the_o deceitful_a lustre_n of_o vain_a glory_n tempt_v you_o to_o preserve_v your_o credit_n in_o the_o world_n with_o the_o loss_n of_o heaven_n you_o owe_v god_n your_o reputation_n as_o well_o as_o your_o life_n or_o whatsoever_o else_o be_v most_o dear_a unto_o you_o consider_v at_o how_o dear_a a_o rate_n christ_n purchase_v the_o redemption_n of_o your_o soul_n destroy_v not_o then_o that_o soul_n for_o which_o chrict_a die_v let_v not_o pride_n prejudice_n or_o or_o malice_n cast_v a_o mist_n before_o the_o eye_n of_o your_o understanding_n and_o you_o shall_v soon_o behold_v that_o light_n which_o will_v infallible_o guide_v you_o to_o your_o last_o end_n god_n and_o the_o eternal_a friution_n of_o the_o beatifical_a
the_o protestant_n all_o these_o i_o purposely_o pass_v by_o because_o i_o will_v contain_v myself_o within_o the_o first_o five_o hundred_o year_n to_o which_o you_o have_v appeal_v you_o see_v then_o doctor_z the_o practice_n and_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n within_o five_o hundred_o year_n after_o christ_n birth_n in_o the_o father_n and_o counsel_n abovecited_a be_v now_o as_o good_a as_o your_o word_n submit_v to_o their_o sentence_n for_o trial_n of_o the_o truth_n of_o religion_n and_o you_o will_v by_o god_n grace_n soon_o return_v to_o your_o mother_n the_o roman_a catholic_a church_n thus_o be_v that_o charge_n which_o you_o say_v sect._n 28._o of_o your_o second_o answer_n we_o know_v not_o how_o to_o shift_v off_o full_o answer_v 45._o in_o the_o next_o sect._n 25._o i_o meet_v with_o some_o authority_n against_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n the_o first_o be_v of_o s._n irenaeus_n who_o sharp_o check_v and_o reprove_v bishop_n victor_n for_o keep_v such_o a_o stir_n about_o the_o observation_n of_o easter_n and_o excommunicate_v divers_a church_n because_o they_o will_v not_o stoop_v to_o his_o lure_n answ_n that_o pope_n victor_n who_o govern_v the_o church_n about_o 200._o year_n after_o the_o birth_n of_o our_o saviour_n excommunicate_v the_o church_n of_o asia_n for_o their_o too_o much_o judaize_v in_o the_o observation_n of_o easter_n be_v a_o very_a strong_a argument_n against_o you_o for_o first_o s._n victor_n be_v a_o pious_a and_o bless_a man_n and_o therefore_o it_o can_v be_v reasonable_o imagine_v that_o he_o will_v usurp_v a_o power_n which_o christ_n never_o give_v he_o second_o those_o church_n of_o asia_n never_o protest_v against_o his_o jurisdiction_n over_o they_o which_o certain_o they_o will_v have_v do_v have_v not_o the_o church_n in_o those_o day_n esteem_v the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n the_o common_a pastor_n of_o christ_n church_n and_o appoint_v by_o christ_n to_o be_v under_o he_o the_o supreme_a head_n thereof_o three_o when_o s._n irenaeus_n expostulate_v with_o he_o for_o his_o severity_n in_o excommunicate_v the_o eastern_a church_n he_o never_o charge_v he_o for_o transgress_v the_o bound_n of_o his_o jurisdiction_n or_o for_o usurp_v a_o power_n which_o christ_n never_o delegated_a unto_o he_o which_o in_o all_o probability_n he_o will_v have_v do_v have_v he_o not_o look_v on_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n as_o the_o supreme_a visible_a head_n of_o christ_n church_n but_o because_o he_o conceive_v not_o their_o offence_n so_o ●ainous_a as_o to_o deserve_v so_o heavy_a a_o censure_n he_o therefore_o take_v upon_o he_o to_o reprove_v pope_n victor_n by_o way_n of_o friendly_a and_o fraternal_a correction_n as_o s._n paul_n sometime_o do_v s._n peter_n and_o as_o s._n paul_n never_o question_v s._n peter_n jurisdiction_n nor_o deny_v he_o to_o be_v the_o chief_a and_o head_n of_o the_o apostle_n so_o neither_o do_v s._n irenaeus_n nor_o any_o of_o the_o eastern_a church_n that_o be_v excommunicate_v by_o pope_n victor_n question_n or_o protest_v against_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n and_o those_o word_n of_o s._n cyprian_n in_o the_o council_n of_o carthage_n be_v to_o be_v understand_v of_o the_o african_a bishop_n only_o who_o be_v of_o equal_a authority_n can_v not_o excommunicate_v one_o another_o they_o exclude_v not_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n otherwise_o s._n cyprian_n have_v contradict_v himself_o who_o say_v plain_o epist_n ad_fw-la quintinum_fw-la and_o serm._n the_o ●on_n patient_a that_o christ_n build_v his_o church_n upon_o s._n peter_n and_o li._n 4._o ep_n 8._o ad_fw-la cornel._n that_o the_o unity_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n consist_v in_o the_o communion_n with_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n his_o word_n you_o shall_v find_v hereafter_o sect._n 58._o in_o the_o next_o place_n sect._n 26._o enter_v a_o angry_a bishop_n of_o cappado●ia_n firmilianus_n speak_v thus_o to_o pope_n stephen_n teipsum_fw-la excidisti_fw-la noli_fw-la te_fw-la fallere_fw-la mistake_v no●_n thyself_o thou_o bishop_n of_o rome_n while_o thou_o go●st_v about_o to_o cast_v out_o other_o by_o this_o presumption_n thou_o have_v cast_v off_o thyself_o from_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n which_o be_v his_o church_n ans_fw-fr by_o your_o leave_n doctor_z you_o misunderstand_v firmilianus_n he_o speak_v not_o as_o you_o will_v have_v he_o indeed_o he_o be_v very_o angry_a with_o pope_n stephen_n because_o he_o excommunicate_v he_o for_o maintain_v that_o heretical_a doctrine_n of_o rebaptise_v heretic_n he_o never_o tell_v pope_n stephen_n that_o he_o have_v cut_v himself_o off_o from_o the_o church_n because_o he_o excommunicate_v firmilianus_n or_o any_o other_o bishop●_n but_o he_o be_v willing_a the_o world_n shall_v think_v that_o pope_n stephen_n in_o defend_v the_o baptism_n of_o heretic_n to_o be_v lawful_a have_v side_v with_o they_o in_o their_o heresy_n and_o have_v therefore_o cut_v himself_o off_o from_o the_o church_n not_o because_o he_o have_v excommunicate_v any_o heretical_a bishop_n of_o the_o east_n but_o because_o as_o firmilianus_n conceive_v he_o too_o much_o comply_v with_o heretic_n and_o you_o know_v doctor_n the_o very_a same_o doctrine_n for_o which_o firmilianus_n be_v excommunicate_v be_v afterward_o in_o the_o first_o general_n council_n of_o nice_a declare_v to_o b●_n heretical_a 46._o it_o be_v common_a say_v you_o in_o these_o day_n even_o with_o t●●se_n that_o conscientious_o pretend_v to_o truth_n not_o to_o be_v content_a with_o the_o rule_n of_o faith_n wh●●●●as_v once_o deliver_v to_o the_o saint_n and_o 〈◊〉_d from_o they_o by_o the_o primitive_a 〈…〉_o transmit_v ●o_o posterity_n bu●_n 〈…〉_o after_o n●w_a invention_n 〈…〉_o ●hese_fw-mi course_n i_o abhor_v with_o a_o 〈…〉_o ans_fw-fr here_o d●ctor_n you_o have_v direct_o give_v sentence_n against_o yourself_o if_o you_o will_v but_o examine_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o your_o doctrine_n wherein_o you_o oppose_v and_o differ_v from_o she_o but_o according_a to_o s._n augustine_n rule_n the_o baptis_n li._n 2._o c._n 23._o and_o the_o principle_n of_o common_a reason_n you_o will_v soon_o discover_v which_o be_v the_o rule_n of_o faith_n deliver_v to_o the_o saint_n receive_v from_o they_o by_o the_o primitive_a church_n &_o so_o transmit_v to_o posterity_n and_o which_o be_v those_o new_a invention_n for_o it_o be_v impossible_a that_o either_o you_o or_o any_o protestant_n in_o the_o world_n can_v show_v or_o prove_v that_o any_o one_o doctrine_n which_o the_o roman_a church_n at_o this_o day_n maintain_v and_o teach_v have_v its_o beginning_n or_o creep_v into_o the_o church_n since_o christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n whereas_o on_o the_o contrary_a there_o be_v not_o one_o doctrine_n wherein_o you_o differ_v from_o the_o roman_a church_n but_o may_v be_v and_o have_v be_v often_o already_o prove_v and_o demonstrate_v to_o have_v begin_v since_o the_o time_n of_o the_o apostle_n how_o then_o do_v you_o abhor_v with_o a_o perfect_a hatred_n these_o course_n since_o you_o have_v embrace_v new_a invention_n and_o total_o forsake_v the_o rule_n of_o faith_n deliver_v to_o the_o saint_n receive_v from_o they_o by_o the_o primitive_a church_n and_o transmit_v to_o posterity_n if_o it_o can_v be_v clear_o demonstrate_v that_o all_o your_o doctrine_n wherein_o you_o differ_v from_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v new_a and_o if_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v that_o any_o one_o doctrine_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n have_v its_o beginning_n since_o the_o apostle_n either_o you_o abhor_v not_o these_o course_n with_o a_o perfect_a hatred_n as_o you_o profess_v or_o else_o you_o must_v in_o all_o point_n embrace_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n 47._o but_o stay_v here_o i_o meet_v with_o a_o brace_n of_o fierce_a syllogism_n that_o fly_v furious_o at_o the_o very_a throat_n of_o the_o poor_a church_n of_o rome_n the_o first_o be_v this_o that_o church_n which_o have_v err_v be_v not_o the_o pillar_n and_o ground_n of_o truth_n but_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n have_v err_v ergo_fw-la the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v not_o the_o pillar_n and_o ground_n of_o truth_n the_o minor_a be_v thus_o prove_v by_o the_o second_o syllogism_n that_o church_n which_o have_v profess_v montanism_n arrianism_n eutychianism_n have_v err_v but_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n have_v profess_v all_o these_o ergo_fw-la the_o church_n of_o rome_n have_v err_v and_o this_o minor_a you_o say_v you_o have_v sufficient_o prove_v sect._n 18._o 27._o but_o i_o have_v more_o sufficient_o prove_v that_o you_o have_v there_o prove_v nothing_o at_o all_o but_o be_v force_v to_o fly_v to_o most_o ridiculous_a shift_n and_o fallacy_n and_o those_o fallacy_n i_o meet_v with_o here_o again_o sect._n 3●_n where_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v charge_v with_o all_o sin_n almost_o imagineable_a and_o divers_a author_n be_v cite_v to_o prove_v that_o