12. 3 4. The word caleth these by the name of prophets not such as doe foretel things to come but those who are furnished with graces meet for the interpretation and applicatioÌ„ of the word vnto the edification and comfort of the church as the Apostle teacheth vs expressely 1. Corint 14. and therfore mistake not the word prophet or prophesie as though we leaned vnto any inward reuelations or motions besides the written word F. I know wel ynough what yow meane and wil not mistake your wordes for the Scripture vseth them in that sence P. Now it should be no new thing vnto yow to heare that they may preach who haue no office in the church seing this is so common a thing in the colleges and vniuersities of this land F. Yea that is in the scholes P. If that exercise wherof yow and I meane I am sure be in your confession warantable in the scholes and colleges it is much more in the church and 〈…〉 the church and assemblies of his saincts should haue the vse and excercise of his holy word and not that it should be brought to humane scholes whither it neuer came into the Lordes minde to command that euer it should enter Let the arthes tongues and other humane knowledge be taught in scholes and let the holy truth and exercises of religion be dernied from the church of Christ which the Apostle for this purpose caleth the piller and ground of truth F. Wel theÌ„ yow beare no office in this your church yow wil not tel vs whither euer yow taught amongst them or not but yow would yow say if they required yow P. True F. But how came it to passe that yow were not madâ— an officer amongst them P. Surely I was desired to take a charge and to continue with them but I would not because it hath bene my purpose alwayes to unploy my smal taleÌ„t in my poore countrie of Wales wher I know that the poore people perish for want of knowledge and this was the onely cause of my coming out of that country wher I was and might haue stayed privatly al my life euen because I saw my self bound in conscience to labour for the caling of my poore kinred and country meÌ„ vnto the knowledge of their saluation in Christ purposing in deed before I had gone thither to haue offred my self vnto her maiestie or some of their honours that it might be made knowne vnto her highnes what I hold in religion and how cleere I am of those greevous crimes of sedition and disturbing of her maiesties peaceable gouermeÌ„t wherwith I am wrongfully charged F. Why yow labour to draw her maiesties subiects from their obedieÌ„ce vnto he lawes and from this church of EnglaÌ„d to heare yow and such as yow are teaching in woods P. Nay I perswade al men vnto the obedience of my Prince and her lawes onely I disswade al the world from yeelding obedience and submission vnto the ordinaÌ„ces of the kingdome of Antichrist and would perswade them to be subiect to Christ Jesus and his blessed lawes and I know this enterprise to be so far from being repugnant vnto her maiesties lawes as I assure my self that the same is warranted therby Her maiestie hath graunted in establishing and confirming the great charter of England whervnto as I take it the kinges and queenes of this land are sworne when they come to their crowne that the church of God vnder her should haue al her rights and liberties inviolable for ever Let the benefite of this law be graunted vnto me and others of my brethren and it shalbe found that we haue done nothing but what is warrantable by her lawes F. What is it meet that subiects should charge their princes to keep covenant with them and enter to scanne what oathes they haue take for this purpose where finde yow this warranted vp scripture P. The subiects are in a most lameÌ„table case if they may not allege their princes lawes for their actiâ—â—s yea and shew what their princes haue promised vnto the Lord and to them wheÌ„ the same may be for declaration of their innocencie and it is the crowne and honour of Princes to be knowne not onely to hold but euen to be in couenant with their subiects that they wil maintaine and preserue them from violence and wrong nay heathen Princes haue thought themselues honoured when their meane subiects haue charged them very earnestly with the covenants wherby they were bound vnto their people The lawes of this land ar so ful this way as no man conversant in them can be ignoraÌ„t that our Princes haue preferred the observing of those equal couenaÌ„ts wherby they are tied vnto their people before the accomplishing of their owne priuate affections yea and commandements in some cases Hence it is that the iudges of this land are bound by law to administer iustice and equitie vnto the poore subiects notwithstaÌ„ding that the princes letters be directed to them to the contrary And as to the law of God al kinges and princes are bound ther by to be so far from thinking themselues tied by no bands vnto their subiects as they are plainly forbiddeÌ„ eueÌ„ to be lifted vp in minde aboue their brethren Deut. 1â— 20. for so the word in that place calleth their subiects and servants The kinges of Judah who had the greatest privileges and prerogatiue both ecclesiastical and ciuil ouer their people that euer any kinges or Princes can haue because they were types and figures of that great king of kings the Lo. Jesus euered into couenaÌ„t notwithstanding with their people euen particulerly besides the general former law wherby they were bound vnto them Yea the prophet Jeremie being in no lesse daunger and disgrace with al estates then I and my brethren are at this present required his soueraigne Lord and king Zedekiah to promise that he would doe him no violeÌ„ce and wrong nor yet suffer others to doe the same for telling him the truth of the word in the thinges wherin the king required to be resolued at his haÌ„des the which thing Zedekiah yeilded vnto and that by an oath and covenant of the Lord. Jer. 38. 15. 16. Wherby it appeareth that it is not without great warrant of the word that princes should enter couenant with their subiects and that subiectes should require promise and oath to be kept with them otherwise wherto serveth the covenant But alas I enter not to scanne her maiesties oath I onely tel yow what her lawes alow me and my poore brethren And I am assured if her maiestie knew the equitie and vprightnes of our cause we should not receiue this hard measure which we now susteine We and our cause are neuer brought before her but in the odious weeds of Sedition rebellion â—chisme her sie etc. and therfore it is no mervaile too see the edge of her sword turned against vs. F. Hath not her maiestie by her lawes established these offices and this order that now is
silent A. Wel wil yow lay your hand on the Bible and take an oath B. I vse to ioyne no creatures to the name of God in an oath A Neither shal yow this is but a custome commanded by law B. The law ought not to commannd a wicked custome A Why is it not lawful to lay your hand on a book B. Yes but not in an oath A. Wil yow lay your hand in my hand and sweare B. No. A. Wil yow lay your hand on y e table and sweare B. No. A. Wil yow hold vp your hand towards heauen and sweare B. That is not amisse but I wil vse my libertie A. Why yow hold it lawful to lay your hand on the table and sweare B. Yea so it be not commanded and made of necessitie A. Why the booke is y â— like it is nothing of the oath but a thing indifferent B. If it be nothing of the othe why doe yow so peremptorilie inioyne it and if it be indifferent as yow say it is then doe I wel in not vsing it A. Nay yow doe not wel in refusing it for therin yow shew yowr self disobedient to the higher powers set over yow by God B. Euen now yow said it was a thing indifferent if it be so ther is no power can bring me in bondage to my libertie A. Where finde yow that B. In S Paul 1. Cor. The Arch B. Archd. D r. Cussins al denied it I affirmed it a litle testament in greek and latine was brought me and a Bible I looked foe the place but could not finde it great sault was in my memorie ffor I looked in the 10. chapter neither â—â—deed could I bethinke me where to finde it they so interrupted me A. Your deâ—initie is like yowr law B. The word of God is not the worse for my il memorie A. Yow speak not as yow thinck for yow are prowd B. I haue smal cause to be prowd of my memorie yow see y t default of it but the Apostle saith it Againe they al denyed it Yow then haue no cause to condemne my memorie seing yow al haue vtterly forgotten this sayeng Then repeated I the words Al thinges are lawful for me but I wil not be brought in bondage to my libertie Then they recited Rom. 14. and 1. Corint 8. al thinges are lawful for me but al thinges are not expedient I said I meant not that place A. I would like it wel if yow cited your place in Greek or Latine B. Why yow vnderstand English is not the word of God in English Then Cussin began to speak of indefinita propositio but whervpon I can not cal to remembranc â— I told him we were now about the new Testament it might be if he had asked me that question when I knew him in Cambridge I should then haue answered him he forthwith called to remembrance of what howse I was A. Were yow then of Cambridge B. Yea I knew yow there He said he was there before I was borne I said it might be Then he entred into discourse of his antiquititie Then he asked me if I had read books as Calvin Beza etc I answered that I had read more then ynough But yet I know not why I am emprisoned A. It is reported that yow come not to church are disobedeent to her maiestie and say that ther is not a true church in England what say yow haue yow at any time said thus B. These are reportes when yow produce yowr testimonie I wil answer A. But I wil better beleeue yow vpon yowr oath then them how say yow wil yow sweare B. I wil know what I sweare to before I sweare A. ffirst sweare and then if any thing be vnlawfully demaunded yow shal not answer B. I haue not learned so to sweare I wil first know and consider of the matter before I take an oath Thus many thinges being alleaged to and fro by vs the Arch B. commaunded Cussin to recorde that I refused to sweare vpon a book B. pea and set downe also that I wil not sweare thus at randon but first I wil know and consider of the thinges I sweare vnto whither they require an oath A Wel when were yow at church B. That is nothing to yow A. Yow are a scismatick a recusant a seditious person etc. with many such like B. Say what yow list of me I freelie forgiue yow A. I care not for yowr forgiuenes B. But if yow offend me yow ought to seek it while yow are in the way with me A. When were yow at church B. I haue answered that in an other place it belongeth not to yow A. Why are yow indited B. I am A. Yet belongeth it to ys I wil not onely medle with yow but arraigne yow as an heretick before me B. Yow 〈…〉 no more then God â—â—â— Erre I may but hereticke wil I never be A. Wil yow come to church hereafter B. ffuture thinges are in the Lords handes if I doe not yow haue a law A. Haue yow spoken these wordes of the church of England B. When yow produce your witnesse I wil answer A. But vpon your oath I wil beleeue yow B. But I wil not accuse my self Then began he againe to charge me with scisme sedition heresâ—e B. Yow are lawlesse I had rather yow produced yowr witnesse A. Of what occupation are yow B. A christian A. So are we al. B. I deny that A. But are yow a minister B. No. A. A scholemaister B. No. A. What then of no trade of life B. In your letter yow know my trade in the superscription A Yow are then a gentleman B. After the manner of our countrie a gentleman A. Serue yow any man B. No I am Gods freeman A. Haue yow landes B. No nor fees A. How liue yow B. By Gods goodnes and my freinds A. Haue yow a father aliue B. Yea. A. Wher dwelleth he in Norffolke B. Yea. A. Wher dwel yow in London B. No. A. Wel can yow finde sufficient suretie for your good behaviour B. Yea as sufficient as yow can take A. What yow cannot haue the Queene B. Neither can yow take her she is the iudge of her law yet for my good behauiour I suppose I could get her word A. Doth she know yow then B. I know her A. Els were it pitie of your life B. Not so A. Can yow haue any of these that came with yow to be bound for yow B. I know not I thinke I can A. What know yow them not B. I know one of them A. What is he B. A gentleman of Graies ynne A. What cal yow him B. Lacie A. But know yow what band yow should enter yow are bound hereby to frequent our churches B. I vnderstand yow of my good behauiour A. And in it is this conteyned and so yow had forseyted your band at the first B. Wel now I know yowr minde I wil enter no such bande A Then I wil send yow to prison Then
not an oath ther must great regard and reuerence be vsed in an oath and an oath for confirmation ought to be the ende of al strife My Lo. if I should erre and deliuer it vpon mine oath for truth it were a double sinne likewise if I should eyther not know not remember or not vtter the whole truth I were by such a rash oath forsworne But by Gods grace I wil answer nothing but the truth Cant. A Christian mans word ought to be as true as his oath we wil proceed with yow without your oath and taking a paper of Interr in his hand said what say yow to this Is it lawful to say the Pater noster publickly in the church or priuatly as a prayer or no B. I know not what yow meane by your Pater noster vnlesse peradventure that forme for prayer which our sauiour Christ taught his disciples commonly called the Lordes prayer Cant. I so meane Then commanded he the first question to be thus written Quest 1. Whither he thinketh the Lordes prayer may publickly in the Church or privatly be vsed as a prayer or no When I had expressed my minde the Arch B. commaunded it should be recorded but I desired the judges that I might with my owne hande write my owne answers which was graunted me My answer then to the first question was Ans It is to be vsed to that ende for which it was giuen by our sauiour Christ to his disciples as a sununarie ground-worke or foundation of al faithful prayers wherby to instruct and assure their conscieÌ„ces that their petitions are according to the wil and glory of God But that these prescript wordes are iâ—ioâ—ned or that Christ 〈…〉 in the scripture Moreouer I see not how it can be vsed as a prayer seing that our particuler wantes and present occasions and necessitieâ— are not therin expressed And therfore I thinke it not to be vsed as a prayer Heere the Arch B. cried out for breuitie and would not suffer me to answer any more questions at large Quest 2. Wither he thinketh that any Leitourgies or prescript formes of prayer may be imposed vpon the church and whither al read and stinted prayers be mere babling in Gods sight Ans I finde in the worde of God 〈◊〉 such authoritie giuen to any man neither such stinted leitourgies prescribed or vsed in the primitiue churches and therfore hold it high presumtion to impose any one deuised Apocrypha praier vpon the church Q. 3. Whither he thinketh that the common praiers commaunded by the publick authoritie of this land be idolatrous superstitious and popish A. I thinke that this book of common prayer publickly inioyned and receiued in the assemblies of this lande is wel nigh altogither idolatrous superstitious and popish Q. 4. Whither he thinketh that the Sacraments which are publikly administred in the church of England be true Sacramentes or no A. I thinke that the SacrameÌ„tes as they are ministred in these publike assemblies are not true Sacramentes and seale not the fauour and blessing of God vnto them Q. 5. Whither he thinketh that the lawes and gouerment of the church of England now by authoritie established be vnlawful and Antichristian or no A. Because the lawes decrees and canons of your church are so many and infinite I can not iudge of them al because I know not al but this I say that many of them as also your Ecclesiastical courtes and gouernours are vnlawful and Antichristian Q. 6. Whither he thinketh that such as haue bene baptised in the church of England since Queene Elisabethes reigne haue bene rightly baptised or ought to be baptised againe A. I thinke as before of yowr Sacramentes that they haue not bene rightly baptised according to the institution of Christ Yet that they need not neither ought to be baptised againe I doubt least the Arch B. hearing my answer of rebaptising caused it to be left out of the question and my answer taking that which might best serue their owne turne to bring vs into suspicion of error and hatred Herevnto many speeches arising of the true and false Sacramentes ministerie gouerment as also of the true and false church I shewed that the false church had also her Sacramentes ministery gouerment though not aright Then Judge Anderson caused this question to be moued to me Q 7. Whither the church of England as it standeth now established be the true established church of Christ and whither the people therin be the true and faithful people of God or no. A. I thinke that these parish assemblies as they stand generally in England are not the true established churches of Christ and that the people as they now stand in this disorder and confusion in them are not to be held the true and faithful people of Christ Here the Judge Anderson took exception as the B. of Lond. also at these wordes parish assemblies I answered the Judge that I could not for some weightie respectes spare him that word for I doubted not but that the Lord had many pretious and elect vessels among them whom he wil in his good time cal forth whom it became not me absolutely to iudge least I should enter into Gods seat Yet I could not in the meane time whiles they stand members of these assemblies count them faithful To the B. I said that when they should better consider of mine answer they should haue lesse cause to finde fault Much trouble we had before we could agree of the state and wordes of their questions with putting out and changing which discourses it is not my purpose here to set downe so much as the questions and answers agreed vpon and recorded although 〈◊〉 some causes knowne to my selfe and to some of their consciences which may hereafter be knowne to al the world I thought it not imperâ—â—nent to insert this Q 8. Whither he thinketh the Queenes maiestie be supreme gouernour of the church and whither she may maâ—e lawes for the church which are not contrary to the word of God or no A. I thinke the Queenes maiestie svpreme gouernour of the whole land and ouer the church also bodies and goods but I thinke that no Prince neither the whole world neither the chvrch it self may make any lawes for the church other then Christ hath already left in his worde Yet I thinke it the dutie of euery Christian and principally of the Prince to enquire out and reâ—â—e the lawes of God and stir vp al their subiectes to more diligent and careful keeping of the same Aâ— we had much a doe to come to the state of this question so the 〈◊〉 shewed themselues euil satisfied with my answer and said that the Papistes dealt more simply then I did and surely they very greevouslie interrupted me with slanders euil speeches and blasphemes during the time of my writing these answers especially the B of Lond. so that I was euen inforced sometime to turne vnto him and shew him of his shamelesse vntruthes and
3. Neither worship yow God aright but after an jdolatrous and superstitious maÌ„ner 4. and your church is not gouerned by Christes Testament but by the Romish courtes and canons etc. L. Tr. Here is matter ynough in deed I perceiue thow takest delight to be an author of this new religion The L. Chanc. said he neuer heard such stuffe before in al his life B. As I was about to shew that neither I was an author of this religioÌ„ and that it was not new as they supposed the B. of Lo. interrupted me and asked me wherin their worship was jdolatrous The L. Treas also demaunded the same question B. Ther is nothing els in that book of your common prayer being demaunded some particulers I shewed that their saintes daies eues fastes idol feastes etc. Lond. Stay there why is it not lawful to keep a memorial of the Saintes in the church B. Not after your manner it is jdolarrie Lond. How proue now that B. By the 1. commaundement Lond. Why that is thow shalt haue no other Gods but me What of that B. The word is Thow shalt haue no other Gods before mâ— face We are therfore forbidden to giue any part of Gods worship to any creature Lond. Why neither doe we B. Yes yow celebrate a day and sanctifie an eaue and cal them by their names yow make a feast and deuise a worship vnto them L. Tr. Why may we not cal the day after their names is not that in our libertie B. No my Lord. L. Tr. How proue yow that B In the beginning of the booke it is written that God himselfe named al the dayes the first the second etc. L. Tr. Why then we may not cal them Sunday Monday etc. B. We are otherwise taught to cal them in the booke of God L. Tr. Why thow they selfe callest it the Lordes day B. And so the holy Ghost calleth it in the â— of the Reuelation Lond. We haue nothing in our saintes dayes but that which is taken forth of the Scriptures B. In that yow say true for yow finde no Saintes dayes in the Scriptures Lond. We finde their Histories and deedes in the Scripture B. But not their dayes and festiuals in the Scripture The Lo. Buckh. then said I was a proud spirit The L. Treas said I had a hotte braine and taking into his hande a book of common prayer which lay on the boord read certaine of the collectes for the Sainte◠〈…〉 Scripture and asked me what I could 〈…〉 therin B. I mislike al for we ought not so to vse Scriptures or prayers Lond. May we not make commemoration of the saintes fiues in the church B. Not after yowr manner to giue peculier dayes eues fastes worship feastes vnto them L. Tr. But what is there jdolatrous B. Al for we ought not so to vse the Scriptures Lond. What not in commemoration of the Saintes B. As I haue said not after yowr manner L. Tr. But what is euil here B. All my Lo. for by abusing the Scripture we may make it an jdol The circumstantes make euil thinges of themselues good as in the massâ—â—ook from whence this stuffe is fetched there are sundry good collectes and places of scripture which their superstitious abuse make abhominable and euil Likewise coniurers make many good prayers which the circumstances also make euil Here the Lo. Buckh. said I was out of my wittes B. No my Lo. I speak the wordes of sobernes and truth as I could make plaine if I might be suffered L. Tr. Here we pray that our liues may be such as theirs was void of couetousnes B. So ought we to doe and not to reade or haue any parte of the scripture without fruite and to follow and flee that which we finde praised and discommended in them yet ought we not to vse the scriptures in this manner to dayes and times neither to be thus restreyned or stinted in our prayers as to be tied to this forme of wordes place time manner kneele stand etc. L. Buckh. This fellow delighteth to heare himselfe speake The L. Chanc. also spake some what at that time which I cannot cal to remembrance as yet Then the Arch B. also spake many thinges against me of smal effect which I haue also forgotten onely this I remember he said I was strower of errors and that therfore he committed me B. In deed yow committed me halfe a yeare close prisoner in the Gatehowse and I neuer vntil now vnderstood the cause why neither as yet know I what errors they be shew them therfore I pray yow The L. Buckh. againe said I was a presumtuous spirit B. My Lo. al spirits must be tried and iudged by the word of God but if I erre my Lo. it is meet I should be shewed wherin L. Chanc. Ther must be streighter lawes made for such fellowes B. Would to God ther were my Lo. our iourny should be the shorter L. Tr. Yow complained to vs of iniustice wherin haue yow wrong B. My Lo. in that we are thus imprisoned without due trial L. Tr. Why yow said yow were condemned vpon the statute B Vniustly my Lo. that statute was not made for vs. L. Tr. Ther must be streighter lawes made for yow B. O my Lo. speak more comfortablie we haue sorrowes ynough L. Tr. In deed thow lookest as if thow hadst a troubled conscience B. No I praise God for it but 〈…〉 wen against her faithful subiectes The L. Tr. answered that the Queenes sword was not as yet drawen against vs. Then in a word or two I complayning of the misery and lingring close imprisonment which we suffer the L. Tr demaunded if we had had no conference The B. of Lond. answered that sundrie had bene with vs as D. Some Grauiat and others but we mocked them that came vnto vs. B. That is not true the Lord knoweth we mock no creature Neither doe I know or haue euer seene to my remembrance that Grauiat yow speak of But miserable phisitians are yow al for M r. Some he indeed was with me but neuer would enter disputation he said he came not therefore but in reasoning manner to know some what of my minde more cleerly Some was then by the Arch B. called and demaunded whither we had conference or no Some shewed how that at our last conference before S r. A. G. ther arose a question betwirt vs whither the Prince might make a positiue law de rebus meâ—ijs of thinges indifferent I denying it he asked me whither she migt make a statute for the reforming excesse of apparel I graunted that she might He then said it was a doctrine of Divils to forbid meate by a positiue law he shewed me then that the Princes law did not binde the conscience and that ther is a difference betwirt forum ciuile and forum conscientiae Some to this effect M r. Young then vncalled came and accused me of vnreuerend speeches vsed against his Lords grace at my first conference with
Some in my chamber so they were dismissed Then I beseeched the Lâ—s to graunt a publicke conference that it might appearâ— to al men what we held and where we erred The Arch B. in great choller said we should haue no publicke conference we had published to much already and therfore he now committed vs close prisoners B. But contrary to law The L. Tr. said it might be vpon such occasions done by law and asked whither I had any learning Cant. and Lond. with one consent answered togither that I had no learning B. The Lord knoweth I am ignorant I haue no learning to boast of but this I know that yow are voide of al true learning and godlines L. Buckh. See the spirit of this man Then requested I conference againe and that in writing which was againe by Cant. very peremtorilie denyed He said that he had matter to cal me before him for an hereticke B. That shal yow neuer doe yow know my former answer to that matter wel erre I may but hereticke by the grace of God wil I neuer be L. Buckh. That is wel said The L. Tr then taking vp a paper of Somes abstract questions which lay among the Bs euidence against me read this That I held it vnlawful to enacte a law that the ministers shal liue by tithes or the people pay them and demaunded of me whither I held tithes vnlawful B. My Lo. they are abrogated and vnlawful L. Tr. Why thoâ—â— wouldest 〈…〉 haue the 〈…〉 of somewhat wherof should he 〈…〉 B. Ex pura eleemosyna of clere almes as Christ in his Testament hath ordeyned and as he and his Apostles L. Tr. But how if the people wil not giue B. Such are not the people of God L. Tr. But what shal the ministers doe in the meane time B. Not stand a minister to such neither take the goods of the prophane L. Tr. Where canst thow shew me now in the Scriptures that the ministers now ought not to liue vpon tithes B. I took the bible and turned to these two places Heb. 7 12. Gal. 6 6. in the one where tithes are abrogate in the other that an other provision is made for them Lond. began the â—auil at the wordes pure and cleere almes Cant. at the place in the Hebr. saying that the authors intent was to proue an abrogation of the preisthod B. Why the wordes of the text are these If the preisthod be changed then of necessitie must ther be a change of the law and yow cannot deny but that tithes were a part of that law alleging Num. 18. L. Tr. What wouldst thow haue him to haue al my goodes B. No my Lo. but I would haue yow to withhold none of your goodes from helping him neither rich nor pore are exemted from this duty ffurder I shewed that if the minister had thinges necessarie as food and rapment he ought to hold him self contented neither ought the church to giue him more Then had we some talke concerning the word Preist the L. Tr. said that the ministers now were not to be called preistes B. If they receiue tithes they are preistes Moreouer they be called preistes in the law Lond. Why what is the word presbyter I pray yow B. An elder Lond. What in age onely B. No Timothie was a yong man Lond. Presbyter is latine for a preist B. It is no latine word but deriued and signifieth the same which the greek word doth which is an Elder Lon. what makest thow a preist B. Him that doth offer sacrifices for so it is written euery where in the law As we were thus reasoning the L. Chanc. asked me if I knew not those two men pointing to Cant. and Lond. B. Yes my Lo. I haue cause to know them L. Chanc. But what is not this the Bp. of London B. I know him for no Bishop my Lo. L. Ch. What is he then B. His name is Elmar my Lo. The Lord pardon my fault that I laid him not open for a wolfe a bloody persecutor and Apostata But by this time the Wardens man plucked me vp L. Chanc. What is that man pointing to Cant. B. The Lord gaue me the spirit of boldnes so that I answered He is a monster a miserable compound I know not what to make him he is neither Ecclesiastical nor ciuil euen that second Beast spoken of in the Reuelation L. Treas Wher is that place shew it B. So I turned to the 13. Chap. and began at the 11. verse and read a litle Then I turned to 2. Thes 2. But the Beast arose for anger gnashing his teeth and said wis yow suffer him my Lords So I was pluckt vp by the Wardens man from my â—nees and caried away As I was â—e parting I desired the Lo. Treas that I might haue the libertie of the aire but had no answer and I prayed the Lord to blesse their honours So I was led forth by an other way then I came in that I might not see the brethren nor they me This is the effect so neere as my euil memorie could cary away the very wordes that were vsed to me and by me in that place The Lord pardon my vnworthines and vnsanctified hart and mouth which can bring no glory to the Lord or benefite to his church but rather reproch to the one and affliction to the other But the Lord knoweth how to deliuer the godly out of tentation and to reserue the vniust vntil the day of iudgement vnder punishment The L. Treas admonished me and told me that I took the Lords name often in vaine I haue forgotten vpon what occasion he spake it But I beseech the Lord that I may not forget this his good admonition but may set a more careful watch before my lippes for sure no doubt I am greatly guiltie that way and neuer vse his holy name with that reuerence I ought THe answers of John Grenewood at London pallace before the 2. L. chief Justices of Engl. the Mr. of the Rolles the L. chief Baron togither with the Arch B. of Cant. the B. of Lond. the B. of Winch. with others to certaine interrogatories as foloweth Q. WHat is your name A. John Grenewood Q. Lay yowr hand vpen the book yow must take an oath A. I wil sweare by the name of God if ther be any need but not by or vpon a book Q. We wil then examine yow without an oath Are yow a minister A. No I was one after your orders Q. Who disgraded yow A. I disgraded my self through Gods mercy by repentance then after many wordes they brought forth a paper conteyning certaine articles in manner of questions as foloweth Q. Is is lawful to vse the Lordes prayer publickly or privatly as a prayer or no A. It is a doctrine to direct al our prayers by but seing it conteyneth the doctrine of the holy Scripture no man can vse the same as a private or publick prayer because he hath not present need to aske al the
peticions therin conteyned at one time neither can comprehend them with feeling and faith Q. Is it lawful or no I wil heare no pratling A. It is not lawful for any thing I can see by the Scripture for ther is no commaundement to say the very wordes ouer and Christ and his Apostles prayed in other wordes according to their present necessitie Q. Is it lawful to vse any stinted prayers either publickly or privatly in prayer A. They are Apocrypha and may not be vsed in the publick assemblie the word and the graces of Gods spirit are onely to be vsed there Q. Answer directly is it lawful to vse them publickly or privatly A. Paul saith in Rom. 8. the spirit of God maketh request for vs and that we know not what to aske but the spirit helpeth our infirmities Q. Answer directly A. It is not lawful to vse stinted prayers invented by man either publickly or privatly for any thing I can see by the Scriptures Q. What say yow then to the book of common prayer is it superstitious popish and idolatrous yea or no A. I beseech yow that I may not be vrged by your law I haue thus long bene close prisoner and therfore desire yow to shew me wherfore and not now to entangle me by your law Q. Is it not yowr law now as wel as ours it is the Queenes law Yow are a good subiect A. I am obedient as a true subiect But I took it we had reasoned of your popish canons Q. Is not the common prayer booke established by the Queenes law L. Cheif Just Tel vs what yow thinke of the book of common prayer yow shal haue libertie to calback what yow wil againe A. If it were in free conference as it hath bene often desired by vs I would so doe Winch. Haue yow not vsed these wordes a yeare a goe that it was popish superstitious and idolatrous A. Yes I thincâ— I haue for it was taken out of the Popes portuis Q. Why would yow not answer so before A. Because I see yow goe about to bring me with in the compasse of the law I. Anderson What say yow now to 〈◊〉 A. That ther ar many errors in it and the forme therof is disagreeable to the Scriptures Arch B. Is it contrary to the Scriptures A. It must needs be contrary if it be disagreable Winch. Whither hold yow it idolatrous superstitious and popish A. I haue answered what I thinke of it I hold it ful of errors and the forme therof disagreable to the Scriptures Q. What say yow for mariage did not yow marie one Boman and his wife in the Fleet A. No neither is mariage a part of the ministers office Q. Who did vse prayer A. I thinke I did at that time vse prayer Q. Who ioyned their handes togither A. I know no such thing they did publickly acknowledge their consent before the assemblie Staâ—â—p I wil make them doe penance for it A. Ther be some had more need shew open repeÌ„tance then they B. They may make such mariages vnder a hedge and it hath bene along receiued order to be maried by the minister A. No ther were many faithful witnesses of their consentes and if it were not lawful we haue many examples of the ancient fathers who by your iudgement did amisse Q. What say yow to the church of England is it a true established church of God A. The whole common wealth is not a church I. Anders But doe yow know any true established church in the land A. If I did I would not accuse them vnto yow Q. But what say yow is not the whole land as it standeth now ordered a true established church A. No not as the assemblies are generally ordered if it please yow I wil shew yow the reasons L C. Just No yow shal haue ynough hereafter to shew the reasons it is not now to be stood vpon Q. What doe yow say to the church of England as it is now guided by Bbs. is it Antichristian A. Bp such Bs. and lawes as it is now guided it is not according to the Scriptures Winch. Thow hast Scriptures often in thy mouth is it then Antichristian A. Yea I hold it contrarie to Christes word Q. What say yow to the Sacramentes then are they true Sacramentes A. No they are neither rightly administred according to Christes institution neither haue promise of grace because yow keep not the covenant Q. Speak plainly are they true Sacramentes or no A. No if yow haue no true church yâ—w can haue no true Sacramentes Q. How say yow are we baptised A. Yea yow haue the outward signe which is the washing but no true Sacrament Q. How can that be A. Very wel then I thought to haue shewed reasons but I could not be suffred Q. Is it lawful Baptisme A. Yea. Q. Need we then to be baptised againe if we had that ministerie and gouerment yow speak of A. No. Q. Should we be baptised at al A. Yea or els if we contenme it we deny the profession of grace Q. Doe yow hold it lawful to baptise children A. Yea I am no Anabaptist I thanke God Q. How far differ yow A. So far as truth from errors Q. Yow haue a boy vnbaptised how old is he A. A yeare and a halfe Q. What is his name A. Abel Q. Who gaue him that name A. Myself being father Q. Why hath he not bene baptised A. Because that I haue bene in prison and cannot tel where to goe to a reformed church wher I might haue him baptised according to Gods ordinance Q. Wil yow goe to church to Sâ— Brides A. I know no such church Q. Wil yow goe to Pauls A. No. Q. Doe yow not hold a parish the church A. If al the people were faithful hauing Gods law and ordinances practised amongst them I doe Q. Then yow hold that the parish doe not make it a church A. No but the profession which the people make Q. Doe yow hold that the church ought to be gouerned by a Presbyterie A. Yea euery congregation of Christ ought to be gouerned by that Presbyterie which Christ hath appointed Q. What are those officers A. Pastor Teacher Elder etc. Q. And by no other A. No by no other then Christ hath appointed Q. May this people and presbyterie reforme such thinges as be amisse without the Prince A. They ought to practise Gods lawes and correct vice br the censure of the word Q. What if the Prince forbid them A. They must doe that which God commaundeth neuerthelesse Q. If the Prince doe offende whither may the presbyterie excommunicate the Prince or no A. The wole church may excommunicate any member of that congregation If the partie continue obstinate in open transgression Q. Whither may the Prince be excommunicate A. Ther is no exception of person and I doubt not but her maiestie would be ruled by the word for it is not the men but the word of God which bindeth and looseth
God left for the ordering of his owne howse for as the Apostle saith Hebr. 3 3. he Yea and his ordinances are worthy of more honour then Moses his were And he that addeth vnto the wordes of this book that is to the true order of the church and pure worship of God conteyned therin the Lord God wil adde vnto him of the plagues that are written in this book saith the spirit of God Reuel 22 19. F. Yow allow of M. Luther I am sure what office had he P. He was first a moncke and so a member by his office of the kingdome of Antichrist euen a good while after the Lord had vsed him as a notable instrument to ouerthrow that kingdome afterward he was vtterly disgraded and depriued of al offices so that as the spirit of God saith Reu. 13. 17. he could neither buy nor sel by vertue of any libertie or freedome that he had within the kingdome of the Beast And by this meanes in the Lords great favour he caried not in this regarde any of the Beastes markes he was not of his name nor of the number of his name he denied himself to belong to that kingdome of Satan and that malignant church vtterly refused him to be any of her body and members Since his excommunication and degradation by the Romish church he nameth himself Ecclesiasten in a book of his so 〈…〉 that is a preacher of Christes blessed truth and gospel Now whither he preached by vertue of a lawful office whervnto he was called in the church of Christ or whither he taught bâ— vertue of his giftes and the opportunitie which he had to manifest the truth hauing neither time nor leisure nor yet thinking it needful it mar be to consider by what office he did it I know not of this I am assured that he was one of the famous and glorious witnesses of the Lo. Jesus raised vp to testifie on his behalfe against the abominations of the kingdome of Antichrist and I am assured that by his tongue and pen the Lo. appeared glorioussie in the power of his gospel to the consumption of that man of sin 2. Thes 2 8. Of his office I iudge the best as of a matter vnknowne vnto me that is I thinke him to haue had a pastoral office in the church of Wittemberg whither he had or not his example is no law for the church to walke by it is Chr. Jesus alone that we must heare and folow according to his wil and word must we frame our walking and if it be an Angel from heauen that wil draw vs to swarue from the same we dare not giue eare vnto him Gal. 1. 8. 9. F. And what office had yow in powr church which meet in woods and I know not where P. I haue no office in that pore congregation and as for our meetinges either in woods or any where els we haue the example of our sauiour Christ of his church and servantes in al ages for our warrant it is against our willes that we goe into woods or secret places as we are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ so our desire is to professe the same openly we are ready before men and Angels to shew and to justifie our meetings and our behauiour in them desiring earnestly that we may haue peace and queietnes to serue our God euen before al men that they may be witnesses of our vpright walking towards our God and al the world especially towards our Prince and countrie We know that meeting in woods in taues in mountaines etc. is a part of the crosse and basenes of the gospel wherat it is easy for the natural man to stumble but we are gladly partakers of this meane estate for the Lords sacred veritie and the question should not be so much where we meet as what we doe in our meetings whither our meetings and doings he warranted by the word or not and what inforced vs to meet in these places F. We wil speak of yr vnlawful assemblies afterwards but what caling haue yow to preach were yow neuer made minister according to the order of this land P. I might if I had bene willing haue bene made either Deacon or preist but I thanke the Lo. I euer disliked those popish orders and if I had taken them I would vtterly refuse them and not stand by them at any hand I haue taught publickly in the church of Scotland being thervnto desired earnestly and called by the order of that church charge I neuer had any and therfore I neuer bare office either there or in any other church F. Did not yow preach in these your secret meetings what warr it haue yow so to doe if yow haue no publick office in your church P. Whither I did or not I doe not tel yow for the present But this I say that if the same poore congregation desired to haue the vse of my smal giftes for the instructioÌ„ and consolatioÌ„ therof I would being thervnto prepared most willingly bestow my poore taleÌ„t to their mutual edification and mine F. And may yow teach in the church publickly hauing no publick office therin P. I may because I am a member therof and requested thervnto by the church and iudged to be indued in some measure with giftes meet for the handling of the Lordes sacred word The body of Christ that is euery particuler congregation of the church ought to haue the vse of al the giftes that are in any member therof and the member cannot deny vnto the body the vse of those graces wherwith it is furnished except it wil break the lawâ—â— and order of the body and become vnnatural vnto the same Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. F. Then euery one that wil may preach the word in your assemblie P. Not so for we hold it merely vnlawful yea tending to the Anabaptistical inversion of al good order in the church for any maÌ„ to intermedle with the Lords holy truth beyond the boundes of his giftes or pet for him that is indued with gifts to preach or teach in the church except he be desired and caled thervnto by the body F. But may any preach that hath not an office in the church so to doe P. Yea that he may and the word of God bindeth him to preach whosoever he be that intendeth to become a Pastor or Teacher in the church of Christ before he take his office vpon him and bindeth the church to take the trial of his giftes before they giue him his office least otherwise he should not be meet for it or at the least that handes should not be suddenly laid vpon him 1. Tim. 3 10. and 5 23. F. What office hath he al this while P. No other office then euery member of the body hath who are bound to haue their seueral operation in the body according to that measure of grace which they deriue from their head the Lo. Jesus by the power of his spirit working in them Rom.