will be harde to conuince many frowarde and obstinate Heretikes to be Heretikes yea of such as by the foresaid fower first and many other Councels generall are condemned for Heretikes As Dauid saide of the wicked Iââ¦llic trepidauerunt timore vbi non erat timor They trembled there for feare where no feare was And as Esay saith Possedit timor hypocritas Feare hath taken holde on the hypocrites So are you M. Stapl afrayde of your owne shadowes For except those frowarde and obstinate heââ¦etikes be your selues that feare the iudgement of that cutting two edged sworde to beate downe your traditions no godly Christian neede to feare or flee from the determination of the Scripture or thinke it insufficient to detect and dââ¦termine all Hereââ¦ies Yet say you it wil be harde to conuince there with many froward obstinate heretikes ⪠As who shuld say it would be easiââ¦r to coÌuince them being so froward and obstinate with out the Scripture and not rather a great deale harder Is it likelier that their frowarde obstinacie will yelde to the authoritie of mans worde that will not yelde to the authoritie of Gods woorde but be it harde or ââ¦ofte what is that to the matter if it will conuince their Heresies be the Heretikes neuer so obstinate This is inough to the purpose that there is no hereââ¦ie defended neuer so frowardly of any obstinate heretike but the worde is able to conuince it to be an hereââ¦ie Yea as Chrysostome saith Nullo modo agnoscitur c. ââ¦o them that are willing to know which is the true church of Christ from heretikes Churches it is knowne by no meanes ãâã modo per scripturas but all onely by the scriptures And where ye make exceptioÌ of such as were condemned for heretikes by the first fââ¦wre generall Councels it is most euident that as in all those Councels the worde of God as their line and squyre was layde foorth amongst them so they conuinced all thoââ¦e heretikes by the same Your common obiection hereto is of the worde ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã which ye say in the expresse scriptures can not be found but what saith S. Augustine to this Quidest enim ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã nisi ãâã eââ¦usdemque substantiaeâ⦠quid est inquam ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã nisi ego pater vnum sumus sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. VVhat is this worde ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã but of one the same substance what is I say ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã but I and my father are one but now neither ought I to alleage the Councell of Nice neither oughtest thou to alleage as to giue fore iudgement the councel of Aââ¦iminum neyther should I be withhelde by the authoritie of this nor thou of that but by the authoritie of the Scriptures c. Thus doth S. Augustine both replie to you that euen those Heretikes were confuted onely by the expresse Scripture and also that for the Iudgement of Heresies the authoritie of the Scripture is to be preferred not onely before the prouinciall Councell at Ariminum but euen before the first generall councell at Nice Neyther did S. Augustine declare their doctrine to be an heresie bicause it was so determined by the generall councell but bicause it was determined by the authoritie of the Scriptures And following this rule we are sure we can not erre For this is as Dauid saith Lucerna ãâã meââ¦s verbum tuum domine lumen semitis me is Thy worde O Lord is a candle to my feete and a light to my pathes On the contrary with out this light not onely the priuate fathers but euen the councels yea the generall councels where they determined ought not grounded on the Scriptures so litle could espie the heresies of others that they erred foule them selues I omitte the councell of Carthage wherein S. Cyprian was how it erred in determining heretikes to be rebaptized The councell of Laodicea whiche though otherwise was a godly councell yet erred it farre in disallowing and enioyning penaunce for those that maried the second time And so forth diuerse other prouincial couÌcels And to speake only of generall councels euen the first Nicene councell how greatly was it like to haue erred in forbidding priests mariages and the matter was alreadie passed by all the Bishops voices had not one father Paphnutius bene that made them retract their errour Which they did not for any authoritie in him being but one Bishop against so many Bishops but moued by the authoritie of Gods worde that be alleaged and from which they swarued And as they haâ⦠like to haue erred herein so erred they in déede in condemning those souldiours who hauing once professed the faith of Christ are prest for souldiours afterwardes Which is contrary to the rule of S. Iohn the baptist that allowed the life of souldiours as a lawfull calling Neither doth Christ in the Centuriâ⦠nor S. Paule in Cornelius in Publius or any other captaines or souldiours with whom he had to do and by whose industrie he was often saued from daunger and whome he likewise helped did euer condemne the vocation of a souldiour vnder his Prince as a calling not agreable to christianitie Likewise the couÌcel of CalcedoÌ did wel in condemning Eutiches but in forbidding mariage to Monkes they erred from the expresse worde of God that sayth Mariage is honorable among all men and that euery man might take a wyfe to auoyde fornication and suche wickednesse not to be named as monks since that restraint haue fallen into And to bring euen a Monkes or an Abbots testimonie of your owne side Panormitane sayth Concilium errare potest sicut alias errauit super caââ¦sa matrimonâ⦠contrahendi inter raptam raptorem quando dictum Hiââ¦ronimi fuit postea toti concilio praelatum A councell may erre as otherwise it erred concerning a cause of matrimonie betweene the partie rauished the raââ¦sher when as the saying of Hierome was afterwarde preferred before an whole councell And if ye referre this to a Prouinciall councell the generall rule taken from S. Augustine will conuince you that not onely Prouinciall councels are corrected by generall but also ââ¦psa plaenaria saepe prââ¦ora posteriââ¦ribus emendantur oftentimes euen the former generall councels are amended of the latter councels But how soeuer this rule was true in S. Augustines dayes since that time the latter generall councels haue ben worsse than the former and so from worsse to worsse are not onely become starke nought but nothing general at al. And therefore it is not onely lawfull to abandon them but we are bounde so to do as our Sauiour Christ warneth vs Cauete vobis ab hominibus quontam tradent vos in concihabulis suis Take heede to your selues of men bicause they will betray you in their councels Suche councels did S. Paule abandon when Fesââ¦us offred him
Pigghius who might for his writing be called Hogghius wel inough one of your chiefest porkelings in his defence of the inuocatioÌ of Saincts against the worde of God He groyneth out this saying Ego certè maiore ratione c. Truly I will with greater reason denie thee the authoritie of all the Scriptures than that thou shalt call me into doubte the beliefe and authoritie of the catholike Church since that vnto me the Scriptures haue no authoritie but all onely of the Churche What a wicked and swynish saying is this of a proude Popish borepigge against the euerlasting worde of God that it hath no authoritie at all from God the author of it but all from man all from the Churche of Rome for that is the Catholike Church that he meaneth the Pope his College of Cardinals and his assemblies of Priests for this they call the oecumenicall and representatiue Church All the authoritie that the worde of God hath it hath it from them alone Which if it were true then indéede as he saithe by better reason he may denie all the Scriptures than so much as call into doubt the beléefe and authoritie of the popish Bishops and Priests Why may they not then adde too and take from and make what and as many Ceremonies as they please and good reason to But since it is no reason that the worde of God should be thus trod vnder the foote of man that Gods worde should giue place to mans worde that Gods worde should haue all his authoritie of the worde of Priests and none at all of God that the Wiues worde should controll checke mate and chââ¦ks vp hir husbandes worde that the wife may speake and appointe as much as she thinkes good and the husbande which hath but a few wordes to say can not be heard that the wiues worde should beare the streake and giue authoritie to the husbandes worde according to the common saying As the good man saith so say we but as the goodwife saith so it must be if this be no good reason nor any reason but cleane against all reason then may we replie to Pigghius and you M. St. that with better reason ⪠all your Churches authoritie and beleefe ought net onely to be called in doubte ⪠whether it agrée to Gods worde or no but also ought to depend wholy and onely on the authoritie of Gods worde And rather than the authoritie of the worde of God should be called into doubte much lesse denied as wickedly he presumeth to speake it were much better reason that he were cast into the sea as Christ saith and in sléede of a milstone that all his ceremonies were hanged aboute his necke all such blasphemous swine as this Pigghius were caried hedloÌg into the sea with him Yea saith Christ Heauen and earth shall passe but my worde shall not passe If your Catholike Church M. St. were the true wife and spouse of the Sonne of God she would with all lowlinesse humilitie reuerence here regarde obey Christ hir husbandes worde And be content to be commaunded by it not to countermaunde it not to thinke it were not of force vnlesse she gaue authoritie thereunto not to adde or diminishe to or from it not to commaunde one thing when he commaundes another not to compell the children and houshold of the faith to obserue hir worde more than hir husbandes not to haue twentie commaundements for hir husbandes tenne not to vse other fashions and customes than hir husband bids hir yea such as he forbids hir not to haue all the wordes and hir husbande not one worde yea to shut vp his mouthe and not to heare his worde these are impudent whores and bolde strumpets fashions a godly Christian matrone a vertuouse and faithfull spouse would neuer do thus But since your Church doth thus call hir catholike so fast as ye lust she is nothing else but a common catholike queane and not the humble and faithfull spouse of christ And your selues that defende hir haue good reason indéede to defende your Mother but such Mother such children that to holde with their mother dispise their Father and make hir worde to giue authoritie to his and say that with better reason they may denie the authoritie of their Fathers worde than so much as make a doubte of the beleefe and authoritie of their mother Yea that is a good ladde I warrant him and a well taught childe that will helpe the Mother to beate the Father is he not worthie his Mothers blessing for his labour but suche bastarde rebelles shal be sure of the Fathers curse For indéede they are not his Children Ues ex patre vestro Diabolo estis You are of your Father the Diuell Qui ex Deo est verba Dei audit propterea vos non auditis quia ex Deo non estis He that is of God heareth the worde of God therefore you heare it not bicause yeare not of God. The true children of God aboue all other thinges yea more than Father mother wife children fréendes yea than their owne life loue God and the hearing of his woorde Otherwise they were not worthie of god Thus do all the shéepe of Christ ãâã meae vââ¦cem meam audiunt My sheepe heare my voice As the Father hath bidden them Hunc audite c. This is my welbeloued Sonne in whom I am delighted heare him that is to say Leuell all your faith and life by the onely authoritie of his worde Who onely knoweth the Fathers will and in whom all the treasures of his fathers glorie are couched Who is the wisedome of God the truth the way the life and the worde it selfe The Sonne which is in the fathers bosome he hath declared it Heare him Auditus autem per verbum Dei But hearing commeth not by the Mothers authoritie but by the worde of God. Thus did the godly children vnto God whome we call Fathers vnto vs both before in Uigilantius time Nullum imitemur c. Let vs follow none saith Origen and if we will follow any Iesus Christ is set forth vnto vs to follow the Actes of the Apostles are described and we acknowledge the doyngs of the Prophets out of the holy volumes that is the firme example that is the ââ¦ounde purpose which who so desireth to follow goeth safe Thus also saith Cyprian both for Gods worde for your Mothers ceremonies The Heretike saith let nothing be deuised of newe besides that which is by tradition deliuered From whence came this tradition came it from the authoritie of the Lorde and of his Gospell or came it from the commandements of the Apostles and their Epistles for indeede that those things which are written ought to be done God witnesseth and setteth forth to Iesus of Nauee saying let not the booke of this law departe out of thy mouth but thou shalt meditate therein day and night that thou obserue all things
Dauids bagge will make you M. Stap. so tottle vp your héeles that we may safely cutte off your head the Pope euen with your owne weapon for all these your cries and crakes But like a lustie champion as though ye had made a sufficient conquest ye say ye wil forbeare at this time to speake of the residue of our noble progenitours Coragiously sayde M. St. when ye haue done the worste ye can and spit out all your poyson then tell vs ye wil forbeare vs Wel then at the length thaÌks be to God ye haue done with our ancestors as ye cal theÌ haue ben answered as ye haue heard Now let others in gods name iudge of vs both as they shal find the falshood or veritie of these matters May it nowe please you M. Sta. to giue me leaue a while to runne at randoÌ the same race that you haue done and to vse your owne words Good sir may it please you fauorably to heare your and your masters honorable pedegree and of their worthy feates and prowesse First what say you to the Phariseis that seuered them selues from all the people in their strange apparell in their fastings prayers and other poynts of hypocrisie described out by Christ in so much that they preferred them selues aboue al men so were counted as in whoÌ religion did only or most consist so like in euery poynt to your Monkes and Friers deuided froÌ other men by their rules profession and estéemed called onely or chiefly religious men VVhat say ye agayne to the Phariseis that kept the key of knowledge among them selues and would neither them selues enter in nor suffer other to enter but rather be blind guides and leaders of the blinde so like to your Prelates and you pretending to be the pastors of the people and kéepers of the worde of God but so to kéepe it that not only ye kept the people from it but for the most part your Priests were ignoraunt of it and blinder guides of the blinde then euer the Phariseis were VVhat say ye agayne to the Phariseis that brought traditions into the Church besides the worde of God and transgressed the worde of God for their traditions sake Wherin for one tradition of the Phariseis so brought in the Papistes haue brought in a score at the least and if I shoulde say an hundreth I spake within my bounds VVhat say ye to the same Phariseis that defended a maÌ might do all that the law commaundeth and obteine iustification and heauen therby But héere the Papistes go beyonde them that say we not onely may do all but more than all that euer God commaunded workes of counsel of voluntarie of supererogatioÌ like to the Foxe with more than a thousand wiles in coÌparison of the poore catte but the Phariseis herein were nothing stored like the Papists What say ye to the Saduces that sayde we haue powre frée will to do good or badde What say ye to the Esseni that liued in woods and solitary places and eate onely rootes and herbes counting all righteousnesse to consist in streight rules of life although herein you be but counterfeits to them and I do them iniuiurie in this comparison to you whose Friers Monkes Heremites and Anachores were nothing comparable but méere Pharisaicall hypocrites What say ye euen to Simon Magus your selfe with whom you charge vs that first began to mingle the Iewish and heathen ceremonies with Christianitie What say ye agayne to Simon Magus that would haue made sales of the giftes of the holy ghost as the Pope maketh sale of his Indulgences graces What say ye agayn to Simon Magus that came to Rome and there was honored as God as the Pope not like Gods viââ¦ar as he pretendeâ⦠but like God him self is there honored and claimeth here in earth to haue the power of God according as Simon Magus named him selfe the power of God. What say ye once againe to Simon Magus and all his ofspring that mainteyned filthie fornication as the Pope doth stewes courteianes and Concubines What say ye to the Heretikes called Sethiani Of whome saith S. Augustine Multa de principatibuâ⦠potestatibus vanââ¦ssima ãâã They faigne many moste vaine thinges of principalities and powers according as do your fabling bookes of the celestiall Hierarchies in the name of Diââ¦nisius and other like What say ye to the Carpocratians that to mainteine their wicked liues false opinions did say that Iesus taught those things to his Disciples and Apostles aparte from his written worde and deliuered them by tradition to be kept as the Pope and all the Papistes say for defence of traditions and vnwritten verities as they call them besides the written worde of Christ. What say ye to the Cainites that made inuocation vnto Angels but the Papistes made inuââ¦cation not only to Angels but to dead men and women also yea and to thinges vnsensible What say ye to the Theodotians that would take from and put to the worde of God and that they had authoritie to correct thââ¦se things that were not well and saide they were therein wiser than the holy Ghost as do the Papists adde to the worde of God their traditions and suppresse and ââ¦iminish the authoritie of Gods worde saying their Church is of greater authoritie by them and they haue furder knowledge of Gods spirite than is contââ¦ined in the written worde of God. What say ye to the Basilidians that to their Disciples commaunded ââ¦ue yéeres silence as your Monkes Friers Heremites Anaââ¦hores c. enioyned to their nouices silence at certaine times and did all by beckes and noddes and if a worde were spoken all their perfection were marde What say ye moreouer to the Basilidians that painted and carued the Image of Christ and worshipped it As I haue shewed the Papists did what kinde of worship socuer ye would excuse the matter withall What say ye to the Cerdoniaus that reiected the ensamples of the old Testament as you M. St. and M. Dorman in this controuersie of supremacie do What say you to Montanus that first appointed lawes of fasting which before were frée as is shewed already in the Article thereon That said the holy Ghost taught him more and better greater things than Christ taught in the Gospell as your Papistes say for their vnwritten verities and workes of supererogation Ascribing a greater perfection to such voluntarie workes than to the workes expressed and commaunded in the worde of God. What say ye againe to the Montanistes that abrogated the authoritie of Gods wââ¦rde as I haue shewed ye in Pigghius and Alphonsus that the Papistes do What say ye againe to the Montanistes that boasted much of mysteries but nothing so many nor so mystie as the Papists were That said to accuse and condemne themselues to be sinners was to sclaunder them selues as the Papists that can not abide
as it is likely by M. sand tale he hath witte wisedome inough begin to smel a rat think with him selfe what should he meane to put this differââ¦ce I freely offered to receiue the Christian fayth and he wyll not take this offer but wyll haue me receiue that faith and that Churche that he sayth was from the Apostles and is continued by succession of Bishops till this day and is dispersed throughout all the worlde Why and is not this the christian fayth and the christian Churche If it be I offered my selfe to it before but he refaseth my offer Then surely this is not that fayth and Church that he meaneth And why should he rather haue me bounde to the Apostles if they were Christes Apostles than to Iesus Christ him selfe shal I be baptised in their names why should I binde my selfe to Bishops succestors which what they haue ben how ill or how welsome of them haue succeeded their predecessors I knowe not nor I will sweare for theÌ And why shoulde I then sweare vnto them rather than vnto the fayth of Christ who is the chiefe Bishop of our soules And why should I binde my selfe to ⪠Church dispersed throughout all the worlde What meaneth he by this the greatest and mightiest multitude or the lyttle flocke of Christ scattered in euery Nation or be it greate or little why should he bind me more to men than vnto Iesus Christ And why requireth he to these things as if it were euen to Christe him selfe and to the fayth of him the defence of all my force and what meaneth he by this force that I shall for all these thinges gather all my power and make sharpe warre where and when he coÌmaundes me and that I shal oblige my selfe to al these conditions on the forfeyture of my kingdome and depose my selfe from my ââ¦ght become a priuate man and leaue the office charge that God hath called me vnto for leauing of these things Yea that if I should not wilfully do otherwise but if I should chaunce to do otherwise And what if he would threape vpon me that I chaunced to do otherwise Surely surely this is not playne dealing with me nor any good meaning to me He seekes not my saluation but my kingdome that thus would snarle me and is not content that I fréely offer to acknowledge the Christian fayth What if the King would cast all these coniectures master Saunders trow you he hathe not good occasion ministred yea what if the King héere vpon béeing thus refused of the Bishop examined these thinges throughly shoulde he not finde foule holes in your coate I tell you it would touche you to the quicke And perhaps it had béene better for the Bishop to haue taken the kinges frée offer and without suche conditions to haue giuen him his baptisme for else he might haue it of some other Bishops hands that had learned of Christ not to breake the broosed reede nor to quenche the smoking flaxe nor to caste off by suche indentinges this godly disposed Prince but with all humilitie and diligence to receiue instruct baptise him yea and bewray all your Popishe iuglinges And what had ye gotten then by these your proude conditions hathe not your pride and couetousnesse made you make a faire market and loose so riche a pray But nowe let vs yet admitte your presupposall further The king would be baptized The Bishop refuseth except on these conditions to admitte him The king séeth there is no remedie he receyueth these conditions What is his dutie nowe to do but with all his force to persist and defende them ⪠What is that for sooth that fayth and Church which beeing receyued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this day and dispersed throughout all the worlde Nowe sithe this is his charge and he is bounde to obserue it with all his force on forfeyture of his kingdome is it not gâ⦠reason that he examine and boulte out which this fayth and Churche is Especially since he heareth that there is great coÌtrouersie about these matters and that there are both wise learned famous men of both sides Yea sayth he if the case be not cleare that I am so strayghtly bounde in it standes me vpon to looke to this geare better and to heare bothe parties say what they can that I may know and be sure that I keepe my promise and not to forfayt my bonde What now for his better assurance shal the prince do must he not here call bothe the parties before him say to the Bishop that tooke thiâ⦠promise of him ââ¦y Lorde you remember what promise you made me make vnto you or euer you would baptise me And nowe I heare say the ââ¦oyntes that you made me promise to defende with all my force and to persist therein are litigious You holde them one way and your aduerfaries another way you say your fayth and Church is that faith and Church that was receiued of the Apostles for howesoeuer the succession of Bishops haue helde it and whersoeuer it hath bene dispersed the receipte of the Apostles from Christ himselfe I perceiue is the first and principal condition that I promised to persist in and to defende withall my force The other twayne must both depende on this I chiefly minde therfore to kââ¦pe this the other as they shal agrée hereto But here your aduersaries on the other pââ¦t ãâã and offer to proue it that your faith and Church is not that faith and Church that the Apostles receiued and deliuered but iâ⦠a faith and Church ââ¦egenerate and swarnedfromit And therefore if you will not be youre selues the cause tâ⦠make me breake the promise that ye made me take ye muste cléere your selues of that ⪠your aduersaries obiect against you and confute them And you she Bishops aduersaries on the other side mustâ⦠bring foorthe youre prooues and defences of youre faythe and Churche and shewe good reason why I should not impugne your fayth and churche and defende theirs agaynst you And héere for equall dealing betweene you bothe béeing parties playntife or defendaunt neither of you your selues shall be your owne or your aduersaries Iudge for the one were partialitie the other iniurie neither I whom the matter bothe for my office and for my promise and forfeyture toucheth nearest will be your Iudge but an indifferent hearer of bothe parties And bicause you bothe admitte the Scriptures to be Gods worde and both the Apostles fayth and the Apostles Church is manifestly recorded in the Scriptures and Christ also willeth vs to search the Scriptures for they beare recorde of him the matter shall be determined by the Scriptures Both of your faiââ¦hes and Churches shall be leueled by that platforme that shall be there apparantly expressed And as the Scripture shall strike the stroke betwéene you I will minister ãâã rightly to saue my promise And will deââ¦ende wââ¦th
Popes councels Esay 8. Psal. 2. Howe general the Popes couÌ cels are Stapl. 54. a. The acte of parliameÌt admitteth the gââ¦rall couÌncels The worde of god the rule of all true general Councels Tripartit hist. lib. 2. cap. 5. Theodoret. Athanasius in epistola ad Epictetum Corynthi episcopum Contra maximinum ArianuÌ li. 3. ca. 13. In psalm 92. Epistola 3. ad FortunatianuÌ Epistola 112. ad PaulinaÌ de videndo Deo. In mat ca. 24. Homil. 49. In Sermone de baptismo Christi Ad reginas de recta fide Thom. Aquinas in secunda secundae Questione 1. Artiâ⦠10. Alphons de Castro aduersus heres li. 1. cap. 8. 2. Cor. 6. Ferus in Matth. 13. Ferus in Matth. 11. â⦠Pet. â⦠Stapl. 54. a. Psalm 25. Esayas 33. Heretikes are to be coÌuinced by the Scripture Chryso in opere imperf hom 49. Contra maximum ãâã lib. 13. ca. 14. Psal. 118. The errours of councels when they swerued from the Scripture Carthaginense 1. Concil Laodiceââ¦um Concil Nicenuâ⦠1. Zozom lib. 3. cap. 11. A souldiours life alowââ¦ble among Christians Concil Calcââ¦don Hebr. 13. 1. Cor. 7. Panormitanuâ⦠de electione cap. significasti Aug. contr Do natist li. 3. cap. 4. Math. 10. Act. 25. Examples of ãâã noughââ¦e couÌcââ¦ls Psal. 25. Psal 115. Rom. 3. Esay 8. Ambrosius Deââ¦r Gratiani Can Sââ¦ââ¦s qâ⦠pââ¦aest 11 q â⦠Panoâ⦠A lay mââ¦n alleaging ãâã ãâã before a geneââ¦all councel Iohn Gerson Innocentius 3. C. Cum vene de except Sta. 54 a. The godly kings in the old testament admitted no foraigne Prelates authoritie Sta. 54. a. The Popes power foraygne Sta. 54 a. Stap. 54 a. Stap. 54 a. Greg. Nazian The Popes Councels not generall True generall Councels are not foraigne power to this or any Christian realme nor excluded by the Act of Parliament St. 54. b. Master Stap. fifte false mark More lay men among the Papists than among vs enioy ecclesiasticall liuings Ad Eugenium ãâã In sermonâ⦠6. ad Psalm 91. Raulinus in quadragesimali Sermone 22. The tale of him that gotte a benefice of the Pope in the Diuels name 8. Q. 1. C. Veââ¦cor 2. Q. 7. C. Secuti 2. Q. 7. August 2. Q. 7. Noâ⦠omnis MoÌks in times past were but ââ¦ay The popishe priests and Bishops were ââ¦ay Bernardus Glossator in ca. St clericus Erasm. Chââ¦ad Encom moriae Math. 5. Stapl. 54. b. The sixt false marke of M. Stapl. Florobellus de principal ⪠rom eccl. ex bald 6. q. 1. c. pastoralis Stapl. 54. b. M. Staplet 7. false marke A Bishops iurisdiction Preaching not simplie forbidden to preachers Staplet 8. falââ¦e marke Stapl 54 b. Tenthes and First fruites to the Prince Tenths First fruites far better bestowed on the Prince than on the Pope The Papists ar gumeÌt of ââ¦osephes immunitie to the Egiptian priestâ⦠Gen. 47. The affinitie betweene the Popish priests and the Egiptian priests Gââ¦ialium Dierum li. 2. cap 8. In Epithetis textorn Diodorus Siculus de rebus antiquis li. 4. cap. 1. M. Sââ¦a Ninth false marke Stââ¦p 54. b. The title of supreme head The oth of the Supremaciâ⦠Tendring the othe Charging the ãâã with the othe A woman Prince Master Feck demaund satisfied in euery one of the foresayde examples St. fol. 55. a. The Papistes curtesie Robin Hood Litle Iohn Fol. 55. a. b. Stapleton The. 16. chap. Stap. 56. a. Master Stap. obiection of witte Stap. 56. a. M. St. quarels at the Bishops testimonies out of the new testament Sta. 56. b. Stap. 56. b. M. Feck secret heresies Math. 9. Ierem. 17. Psal. 93. Stap. 56. b. Sta. 56. b. Supra 55 a. The Heresies that the papists falsly charge vs withall August Epiph de haeres Hier. contra Iouiniam Ambr. Li. 10. Epi. 18. Ambros. serm 91. Euth in Panopl tit 33. Euth Zigab in Paul. tit 21. Hieron coÌtra Vig. Ionas Episcopus Auââ¦elian contra Claud. Futh in Panopl Tit. 22. August lib. 1. cont 2. Epist. Pela ad Bon if cap. 13. Cyril lib. 6. coÌt Iulian. August coÌt 2. Epist Pââ¦l ca. 4 Caluine in his Institutions ca. 18. In fine Argentorati impress Anno. 1545. Epiph. Philast de Haeres ⪠Clemens li. 3. recog Irenaeus Li. 1. cap. 20. The Papistes deface the glorie of Christ as ill as Arius or Aerius Difference betwene Priest and Bishop Hieronimus ad Titum Dist. 93. can Olim idem Lib. 4. Dist. 24. 1. 1. Tim. 3. Durandus de sancto Portiââ¦no in lib. 4. Sent. Dist. 24. Q. 6. Instituââ¦o doct Christi de ââ¦acr or dinis fol. 196. Summa angelica L. ordo The Papistes controuersie about their holy orders Difference betvvene fasting not fasting Fuseb eccl. hist. li. 5. ca. 18 Eccl. histor lib. 5. cap. 24. Tripartit hist. lib. 9. cap. 38. Fonre thinges to be noted in the fastings of the auncient Church Trip. Hist. li. 1 ca. 10. Hieron ad Nepotianum The Popishe chief fastest Chavvcer in the Monkes Prologue Lib. 7 de ãâã 2. hââ¦r M. St. belieth Aerius The Church of Englande allovveth fasting Saterday fast Aug. Epi. 83. Rom. 14. The Churche of Rome appoynted not lawes for fasting to other Churches Fridayes and Saterdayes fasts no more than other dayes by the scripture No difference of merite in fasting or not fasting Ferus in Math. Cap. 9. The Papistes confesse they make greater conscience on mans decrees thaÌ gââ¦ds word Iudging of the faster or not faster The work and the trust in the worke Why Christ prescribed not orders in these things The Papistes confesse them selues to bee Phariseys Ferus in ca. 12. Math. Misiudging in fasting The Popishe righteousnesse worse than the Phariseys Outwarde things Two things commaunded in keeping the Sabaoth Two things in euery precept the heart the outward work Ecclesiasticall constitutions Apparell The Papists abuse in all these things Sacrifice for the deade Aerius againe belyed Hypognost lib. 5. Saint August knevv not of any purging place for the deade Marke 9. Luke 16. De verbis Apostoli Serm. 18. De vanitate sââ¦culi Origens error of the damned The Pope deliuereth out of hell The soules in heauen neede no prayer for deliuerie The Grecians and Egyptians errours about the deade Epiph. in lib. Anachoratus Ambro. in Rom. 1. August de ciu dei Iud. Epist. August de mirabilibus sacrae script lib. 1. Cap vlt. 1. Cor. 15. August Enchi ad Laurent Theophil in ââ¦or The godly fathers errors about the dead Epiphanius defectes The drift of Aerius The auncient fathers memories for the dead were but thankes giuing and prayses Whie they praysed God for the dead Epiph cont Haer. lib. 3. to 1. Haer. 75. In Epist ⪠ad 10. Hierosol epist. Stapl. 77. b. Prayers needlesse for the saincts in heauen Ca. Cum Marthae decele Missae Prayer ââ¦lesse for them that dyed in their sinnes Ad Demetrianum Tom. 1. Lib. de varijs quest Q 19. 13. Quest. 2. câ⦠in praesent In Esai ca. 65. Chry. ad Heb. ca. 2. hom 4. De Lazaro coÌcione
alleaged c. and all thinges else that is here alleaged yet all will not reache home 68. a. VVhich aunswere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in c. 68. b. VVhich I am assured all Catholikes will graunt 68. b. Giue to Caesar that belongeth to Caesar and to God that beloÌgeth to God ⪠which later clause ⪠I am assured doth much more take away a supreme regiment in all causes ecclesiasticall than necessalily by force of any wordes binde vs to pay yea any tribute to our Prince 69. b. VVe plainly say that this kinde of supremacie is directly against Gods holy worde 70. a. VVhat can ye conclude of all that ye haue or shall say to win your purpose 74. a. I say that if Saint Augustine were aliue he woulde say vnto you as he saide vnto Gaudentius 74. b. Neither this that ye here alleage out of place nor all the residue which ye reherse of this Constantine c. can import this superioritie as we shall there more at large specific In the meane season I say it is a stark most impudeÌt lie 75. b As I haue at large in my returne against master Iewels fourth article declared 77. b. VVhat honour haue ye got what honour haue you I saye wonne by this or by the whole thing it selfe 78. a. And shal we now M. Horne your antecedeÌt being so naught the consequent ye will hereof inferre nay pardie 79. a b. VVell I will leaue this at your leasure better to bee debated vpon betwixt you and master Foxe 80. a. Ye are a verie poore sielie clearke farre from the knowledge of the late reuerende fathers Bishop VVhite and Bishop Gardiner 80. a. That I may a little roll in your rayling Rhetorike hearken good master Horne I walke not and wander as ye doe here c. I go to worke with you truely plainly and particularly I shewe you by your owne Emperour and by plaine wordes 81. b. Hitherto ye haue not brought any one thing worth a good strawe to the substantiall prouse of your purpose 82. a. I am right well assured ye haue not proued nor neuer shall be able to proue in the auncient Church while ye liue 82. b. I walke not in confuse and generall wordes as you do 82. b. To all these facings and crakes though many of them be particularly aunswered as occasion requireth these his owne wordes may suffise for aunswere All men knowe that your great vauntes are but wordes of course to saue your poore honestie 1. Pref. pag. 23. Bicause he quarelleth so much with the Bishop as for other things so for his Rhetorike as also Doctour Harding and his fellowes vpbrayde likewise vnto Bishop Iewell his Rhetorike and master Dorman to master Nowell I haue therefore set downe as one of his chiefest common places a briefe note or two by the way to shewe wherein our master Stapletons flourishing Rhetorike doth most consist His obiections of Rhetorike AS for your Rhetorike ye woorke your matters so handsomly and so perswasiuely c. what a newe Cicero or Demosthenes are you 1. Pref. pag. 6. 7. His chiefest floures of Rhetorike partly nothing but copia verboruâ⦠an heape of needlesse wordes partly nothing but rolling on a letter With which Rhetorike thou shalt ãâã his whole booke so poudred that it should be superfluous to trouble thée with any exacter collection of theÌ being in effect nothing else but ââ¦rs bahlatiua Only I will giue ãâã a light taste thereof throughout his whole volume and the rest thou ãâã continually finde as thou readest his Counterblast His fift common place of flourishing Rhetorike IT is the Castle of your Profession the Key of your Doctrine the principal Fort of all your Religion the piller of your authoritie the fountaine of your iurisdiction the ankerholde of all your proceedings 1. Pref. pag. 1. Your cause is betrayed your doctrine dissolueth your whole Religion goeth to wracke the want of this right shaketh your authoritie stoppeth your iurisdiction and is the vtter ship wracke of all your proceedings 2. Haue I not grounded this worke c. haue I not posted it c. haue I not furnished it c. haue I not fenced it c. haue I not remooued all c. an outward shewe and countenance a gay glorious glistring face a face I say all is but a face and a naked shewe 3. Most miserably and wretchedly pinched pared and dismembred Most shamefully contaminated depraued and deformed 12. A mishapen lumpe of lewde and lose arguments 5. VVith like good Logike ye lay forth 6. The truth is dayly more and more opened illustred and confirmed 8. T. Turkish trecherie L. Lauashing language 14. B. Bluster and blow F. Fume and freat R. Raile and raue as L. Lowdlyas lewdly as B. Beastly as boldly c. ye B. Bluster not so boysterously as ye L. Lie most lewdly 15. A H. Happie happe for master Horne that happed c. S. Such slender circumstances to M. Minister him matter of such T. Trifling talke 6. b. A prerogatiue appropriate to the Prelate 7. b. You will happly forsake and abandoÌ Saint Augustines authoritie with the olde C. Canons and Councels and ãâã vnder the defence of your B. Brittle Bulwarke 8. b. A pretie legerdemaine played and a leafe put in at the printing which was neuer proposed in the parliament c. what Parliament haue your preachers 9. a. b. O poore and siely helpe O miserable shift c. This is to trouble all things this is as it were to confounde togither heauen and earth 9. a. VVhie good sir make ye such post haste what are you so soone at the ende I see your haste is great VVhat will you leape ouer the hedge ere ye come at it And I might be so bolde I woulde faine demaunde of you the cause of your hastie posting Perhaps there is some eye sore or somewhat that your stomacke cannot beare Grieueth it you to heare Doth it appall you to heare c. Doth it dasell and amase you to heare c. Doe yee take it to the heart Master Horne ⪠Is it a corsey to you Is there yet any other lurking sore priuily pinching your stomack I trow it nipped you at the very heart roote 212. b. 213. a. b. VVhie master Horne can your eares paciently abide all this can your stomacke digest all this master Horne can ye suffer can ye suffer How chaunce we haue not at the least for your comfort one pretie nippe 287. a. A rascall rablement of monstruous hereticall names A rablement of straunge monstrous hereticall names This rascall rablement of huge monstrous names 317. It is so it is so master Horne c. You can not you may not you shall not c. You sawe you sawe master Horne you master Horne 430. Your horrible dissention glistreth so cleare crieth so lowde and blustreth so great that so long as we haue
digressed from it for otherwise ye must vnderstande his bigge Counterblast had béene but a verie shorte and little puffe of wind But to all this impertinent stuffe though the most of it for his importunitie be aunswered at large I answere it with his owne wordes fol. 4. Much labour vainely and ydly employed with tedious and infinit talke and babling al from the purpose out of the matter which ought specially to haue bene iustified 4. His seuenth common place of false translations ⪠THe reason why I place this among his other common places is that although he cite fewe allegations in this first booke for the Popes supremacie and therefore coulde not be much noted here of this fault yet in his other bookes following he is full of false translations or at the leastwise so captions translations that he might séeme any wayes to further his purpose thereby His ovvne obiection MAster Horne doth not faythfully but most corruptly and falsly alleage the authours wordes and vseth his owne in steade of theirs and to such as he truely rehearseth he giueth an vnmeete and vnprofitable sense of his owne making Interpreting a sentence out of the storie of Magdeburge wrested as spoken agaynst vs defending the supreme gouernment of the Quéenes Maiestie where it was spoken of a Popishe supremacie he translateth Non sint capita Ecclesiae They may not be heads of the Church in no cafe Which wordes in no case as though it denied all kinde of supremacie is his owne addition and not his Authours wordes fol. 22. a. To pretende a iolie antiquitie and authoritie for the Popish errour of penance and that it is a Sacrament alleaging S. Aââ¦g whose words are these Nunquid enim perfecte de Trinitate tractatuÌ est anteque oblatrarent Ariant nuÌquid perfecte de peniteÌtia tractaâ⦠est anteque obsistereÌt Nouatiani sic non c. VVas the matter of the Trinitie throughly discussed before that the Arrians barked agaynst it Concerning repentance was it euer throughly handled before the Nouatians withstoode it c. which master Stapleton translateth the Sacrament of penance was neuer throughly handled c. Where Saint Augustine nameth not penance but repetance neyther speaketh he of any Sacrament at all but onely sayth de poenitenââ¦a of repentance 37. b. Where the Bishop alleaged King Dauids actes to inferre a supreme gouernment Master Stapleton aunswering by this sentence 1. Par. 24. Ut ingrediantur domum dei iuxta ritum suum sub manu Aaron patris eorum That they should enter into the house of God according to their rite or maner vnder the hande of Aaron their father to make the matter sââ¦me to serue his turne the better he Englisheth these later wordes Sub manu patris Aaron Vnder the spirituall gouernment of their spirituall father and his successors the hie Priests which wordes his text hath not Translating the wordes that he hath picked out of an Epistle of Theodosius that which is there spoken of a particular controuersie of the ââ¦ayth and the Priests then about the Bishop of Constantinoples deposition and appeale he translateth locum ac faââ¦ultatem habeat de fide ac sacerdotibuâ⦠iudicare That he may haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in such matters as concerne faith and priests As though it were spoken simplie of all such matters where his allegation hath neyther these generall wordes suche matters as concerne nor any such generall meaning onely the Emperour Ualentinian writeth to Theodosius being also Emperour that the Bishop of Rome may haue place and licence to iudge of the fayth and the Priestes meaning of that controuersie of the fayth that was then sproong vp and the quarell about Flauianus for so the ende of the sentence in expresse wordes expoundeth it selfe Which wordes master Stap. leaueth out least his false and captious translation should be espied His ovvne obiections of contradictions THese fellowes iarre alwayes among themselues and in all their doctrines fall into such poynts of discorde that in place of vniforme tuning they ruffle vs vp a blacke sanctus Quo teneam ãâã ãâã prââ¦tea nodâ⦠His eight common place of contradictions to him self and his fellovves THis controuersie sayth he of the supremacie is the only matter the Papists stand in which if it were so then they admitte all other thingâ⦠and stand not in them but straight he contraryââ¦th his owne tale saying other matters in controuersie are not so oppressed Ergo they be pressed and the Papistes stande in them ⪠1. Pref. pag. 2. The Princes inuesturing of Bishops is but an impertinent matter And yet anon he sayth The inuestiture of Bishops is a matter quite destroying the Princes supremacie He often complayneth that the title of King Henrie the eight and King Edwarde the ââ¦ixt was so simple and large that it was faine to be mollified with the Queenes title And yet he sayth in his 2. Preface Pag. 34. the Queenes title hath more added than theirs and that of greatest importance He sayth Princes may meddle and deale with ecclesiasticall causes which neither master Feckenham nor any Catholike will greatly contende with him in 4. a. Where not onely the contrarie is most apparant but also Cardinall Hosiâ⦠will not suffer Princes so muche as Mouere sermoneÌ To moue any talke of ecclesiastical matters Fol. 1â⦠b. He sayth the matters debated in the disputation at Westminster were but three the seruice in English the alteration of ceremonies and the Sacrifice propiciatorie But in the next page where he sayth there woulde haue beene more deliberation he addeth a fourth the controuersie of the supremacie 13 2. He sayth those matters that were debated were nothing touching fayth and yet in the page before he onely sayd the first and the seconde be no matters of fayth He sayth also they were no principall matters but dependant and accessorie And yet in the first he sayth of the supremacie that it is of such and so great importance as no matter more nowe in controuersie and for the other poyntes who séeth not what principall matters otherwhiles they will make these séeme to be especially the sacrifice of the Masse for the whiche they burned so fast in the late raigne of Quéene Marie when this was one of their first and chiefest questions Againe that the Papistes be most obedient subiects to the Queenes Maiestie he craketh almost in euery place And yet about this disputation he confesseth that eueÌ in a trifling matter they disobeyed the Queenes commaundement 11. b. Fol. 29. a. b. Christian Princes ciuill gouernment reacheth and tendeth to this ende to preserue their subiects from outwarde and inwarde iniuries oppressions and enemies to prouide for their safetie quietnesse for their welth abundance and prosperous maintenance and no further What is here more than in a Sarasin Prince But anon he sayth Christian Princes most of all are muche more bounde to employ themselues to their possibilitie towarde the tuition and defence furtherance and amplification of
the spirituall Kingdome fol. 29. b. 30. a. The seruice of the Prince is common as wel to the heathen as Christian gouernment 29. b. Christian Princes are faythfull aduocates in ayding and assisting the spirituall power 30. a. which the heathen are not fol. 30. b. He flatly confesseth that M. Feck helped to spoyle Queene Marie of a principall part of hir royall power right and dignitie in spoyling hir of this supremacie thought sayth he he so did but not as an vnfaythfull subiect But so to spoyle hiâ⦠⪠and not therein to be an vnfaythfull subiect are flatte contradictorie Againe he sayth he did it as a repentant Catholike but to spoyle any bodie of their right and to do it repentantly are also flat contradictorie ibid. Againe he sayth afterward it was no part at all of hiâ⦠royall power but to confesse first that he spoyled hir of a principall part of hir royall power and after to say it was no part of hir royall power are likewise contradictorie As also to say he spoyled hir and yet it was no part belonging to that of which he spoyled ãâã What are all these but an heape of wordes ãâã ãâã contradictions And all this he vttereth within lesse than fortie wordes togither Fol. 40. b TheÌ Bishop ãâã that the Prince shall haue by him the lawe of God ãâã ãâã ãâã ââ¦ly ãâã ãâã that the ãâã sââ¦yth not so ⪠ãâã yet within fire lynes before he confesseth that ââ¦he ãâã ââ¦yeth so and ãâã ãâã ãâã of infidelitie for leauing out woordes that wente immediately before the Texte that the Bishop alleaged And so while hee stryueth to chalenge the Bishop he cleareth the Bishop and ouerth ãâã himselfe Againe in the ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã On the one side of the leafe he graunteth freely that by the. 13. of Deuterenomie Princes may punishe teachers of false and superstitious religion and Idolatrie On ãâã ââ¦ther ãâã of the leafe he eateth his free graunt ãâã and sayth that in all ãâã chapter or in all that booke ⪠there is no ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ââ¦ounde cares not what Where the Bishop allengeth the ãâã of ââ¦osue M. St. ãâã the ensample bicause sayth he Iosue did sacrifice ãâã ãâã other ãâã ãâã ãâã himselfe 46. b. that Princes cannot now do And yet after fol. 49. speaking of Iosue he confesseth that he did them not him selfe but by appoynting them to bee done by the priestes ministerie He chalengeth the Bishop for not prouing his matters by any testimonies of the newe Testament after he hath handled the olde And by and by he confesseth that he alleageth two testimonies of the newe Testament to proue his matters by 59. a. He confesseth that master Feckenham refused of settâ⦠purpose like â⦠wise man the testimonies of the olde Testament And yet all his long treatise of eight leanes togither in the ⪠ââ¦6 Chapter is chiefly to this purpose to proue that he refuseth them not 62. a. He confesseth that he omitted them bicause they made agaynst him and yet he sayth he includeth them and affirmeth them as all making with him ibid. Fol. 65. a. b. He graunteth by Saint Augustines wordes that Princes may make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes Religion And in the next side he denieth Saint Augustines wordes to enforce any thing else but lawes to punishe Heretikes which is no Ecclesiasticall matter at all Fol. 66. a. He sayth we denie that Princes may punish Heretikes by death And ãâã ãâã ⪠he sayth we hold with Caluin that sayth Princes may ⪠pot ⪠Heretikes vnto death When the Bishop presseth him with the ensamples of Moses ãâã Dauid ãâã ãâã denieth as doth master Dorman that the ensamples of the old are figures of the new Testament and yet in the ⪠17. Chapter he graunteth that all the examples ãâã ⪠ãâã that the ãâã of the olde Testament herein be figures of the newe fol. 68. â⦠He confesseth there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes ecclesiasticall And in the next side he ãâã the Princes regiment to ââ¦e but an ouer ââ¦r in ciuill matters But forthwith againe contrarie to this he graunteth the Prince may haue the procurations and executions of Church matters fol. 68. â⦠And thus in Docke out Nettie he so graunteth and denieth that there is no holde of his worde 68. a. b. He graunteth Christ destroyed not the rule of Princes in Church causes figured in the olde lawe and that Christs sentence giue to Caesar that that is Caesars confirmeth the figure of Princes rule in Church causes in the olde lawe And yet streightway he sayth it maketh nothing for it 69. a. He sayth this sentence giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar destroyeth not the figure where the subiects in the olde lawe were bounde to giue all duties to their Princes that belonged vnto them And yet anon after by this sentence sayth he men be not bounde to pay any thing yea not so much as tribute to their Princes 70. a. And so this sentence confirmeth not but loââ¦eth and destroyeth the figure by the which subiects were bounde before to their Princes He sayth that this sentence of Christ determineth something And by and by he sayth it determineth nothing Againe he sayth it determineth paying tribute onely And yet he sayd before it determined not that neither He sayde also before that this sentence onely licensed that we might pay tribute if we woulde but we ought not And yet after he sayth Christ willed that to be giuen to Caesar that is his which is ââ¦oth a determination and commaundement also 70. a. He sayth the Bishops admonition hereon is without anie cause or grounde And anon he sayth it serueth him and his brethren for many and necessarie purposes fol. 70. a. He graunteth that Princes haue authoritie both to further the obseruation and to punishe the breach aswell in the first table as in the seconde that is aswell in such actions as concerne our dutie to God him selfe as in the dutie of one man to another 71. b. But in the next side he flatly denieth this againe saying these are the workes of the first table the punishing correcting or iudging of these appertaine nothing to the authoritie of the Prince or to anye hys lawes 72. a. He sayth we make the Princes supreme gouernours without any limitation And yet withall he alleageth Master Nowell to say it is not without limitation but that Godly ministers may iudge of the synceritie of doctrine according to Gods worde fol. 73. a. As also he shewed in the diuision before howe the Bishop limitted the Princes gouernment by the boundes of the worde of God. He sayeth that Saint Paule 1. Tim. 2. speaketh there of no authoritie at all in Princes Where the wordes are euident for all those that bee put in authoritie And yet himselfe by and by sayth hee speaketh of theyr gouernment And anon after will ye knowe sayth he whie the Apostles both Saint
c. VVe say ye be they that haue contemned Christs sacramentes we saye further that not onely the generall Councell of Trent but that the whole Church hath condemned your opinions These woordes of course are answered in their places fol. 56 a He telleth vs we would mayster and rule oure Princes bicause we limit their rule to Gods worde and that wée referre the interpretation of Gods woorde to oure selues that wee make therof a welshe mans hose Whiche woordes of course are answered in their places and are so manifest the dooings of the Papists and so farre from touching vs that it is maruell with what face he could reherse suche things But such is the propretie of impudencie to obiect that to other wherein he is most culpable him selfe fol. 70. VVe plainly say this kind of supremacie is directly against Gods worde so he sayd before and so let him say sââ¦il so long as he doth but say so and can neuer proue it These and suche like his sayings good reader as thou séest them but mere words of course so thou shalt fynd them swarme thorow ââ¦ut all his booke and if any of them be not answered for thou séest I cut them off for breuitie sake answere then them as thou thinkest good easy answer God wote may serue them and his owne wordes serue for all returned on him selfe ãâã nomine de ãâã fubula narratur change but the name and the tale is tolde of thee Fol. 31. b. In the meane season for these and all his other wordes of course I will say to him againe as he sayth to the Bishop Neither vvill I thanke you for bringing to our hands so good stuff to proue our principal purpose by but say herein to you as S. Aug. sayd in the lyke case to the Donatists alleaging the workes of Optatus by whiche they were euen confounded and the catholikes cause maruellously furthered Neââ¦mmen ipsis ⪠c. Neyther doo wee yet thanke them for their so doing but rather God for that they shoulde bring foorth and vtter eyther by talke or by alleaging all those thinges for our matter the truth forced them not any charitie inuited them And so truly M. Stapleton that you haue alleaged all this and other lyke wordes of course when they are ãâã compensed to you you are euen so confounded by them that it had ben better for your cause ye had not so muche vsed them but that ye brought suche good stuffe to our handes the truth of our cause forceth you not any good will to our cause or to vs moued you Maister Stapletons ovvne vvords returned to him selfe for all these his Common places MOderate your penne better reporte your authors more syncerely translate your allegations more truely laye downe the whole sentence without concealing of such matter as ouerthroweth your purpose say no more than ye fynd in stories slander not your betters deale more aduisedly and vprightly séek not out so often bymatters starting holes quarell not somuch about trifles of letters syllables escapes in printing raile not so bitterly scoffe not so LuciaÌlike boast vaunt not with such defacings of persons and outfacings of the matter leaue your vain rhetorik of Copia verboruÌ and rolling on a letter vse not as ye cal them so many words of course let your tale hang better together without so many contradictions so shall your vntruthes be fewer an other tyme but so wil your cause I assure you M. Sta come starke naked feble and miserable And al your great volume as bare ââ¦ield as Esops pulde crow as partly may appere by this pretie farââ¦el of some such yeur sentences and ordinarie phrases in a part of the foresayd poyntes and may further be considered what a full and sufficient booke they might make vp of them selues if al the residue throughout all the foure bookes were gathered togither and sorted in their troupes and orders of these your common places But these only shall suffise for this your first booke for a viewe of the rest to shew what good diuinitie of Louaine your volume is most ââ¦arced withall and what as ye say they shall looke for at your handes Master Stapletons Beadroll and collection of vntruthes vvith a plain and brief ansvver to euery one of them so many as are noted in his fyrste Booke His ovvne chalenge of the Bishop for vntruthes YOur answere is so fraighted and stuffed with falshodes your vntruthes do so swarme and muster all along youre booke that for the quantitie of your treatise you are comparable to Maister Iewell youre vntruthes amounte to the number of sixe hundred fourescore and odde they be so notorious and so many that it pitieth me in your behalf Crocodili lachrymâ⦠to remember them but the places be euident and crie corruption and maye by no shifte be denied If my curiositie in noting them displease you lette the vttering of them fyrst displease your selfe then ye will the lesse be displeased with mee You knowe maister Iewell hath led vs this daunce be not angrie Maister Horne if we followe the round 1. Preface pag. 19. The ansvvere to the collection of vntruthes VVinchester If I had not seene a further meaning in his setting foorthe and publishing the booke than he durst playnly vtter Stapleton The first vntruth slaunderous concerning master Feckenhams meaning Bridges Lo euen at the first striking vp of the round what a passing notorious vntruth is here to bee the captain ringleader to all this bande ye may well M. Stapl. not pitie it but pitie youre selfe and be ashamed also to haue so cried out of suche notorious vntruââ¦hes and here to beginne your daunce with this to haue vs look for the lyke to folow the rounde Howe vntrue this is let eche man hardely coniecture and your selfe shew that M. Feckenham durst not say all that he ment oftentimes in excusing him and euen your next vntruth will somewhat declare this further 2 But seing his chief end and principal purpose entended as may be iustly gathered in publishing the booke was to engraffe in the mindes of the subiects a mislikyng of the Queenes Maiestie as thoughe she vsurped a power authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters wherto she hath no right 2 His chiefe ende was farre otherwise as shall appeare You so chalenge this to be an other vntruthe that denying it to be his chiefe ende ye durste not saye but couertly confesse that an ende and purpose of him it was thoughe not the chief end Wherin ye proue that that ye chalenged before for an vntruth to be a truth that he ment more than he durst playnly vtter And yet howsoeuer ye woulde couer his and your meaning here both he in his booke and you in yours also durst plainly vtter that ye mislike hiâ⦠Maiesties claime of this supreme authoritie and playnly laye to hir charge vsurpation Howe subiectlike let all true subiectes iudge And sitâ⦠this his and youre bookes are
ye can be no Prelate of the Garter beeing no Prelate at all that beeing a prerogatiue appropriate to the Prelate and B. of VVinchester Soft M. St. if ye be so playne blunt a man as ye pretrÌd ne sutor vltra crepââ¦da hew not tâ⦠hye least chips fall in your eye blunder not so rudely with princes must the Q. Maiestie beare with you to bicause you must needs go bluntly to worke ye presume to determine what the Q. highnes may do She can make him â⦠but she can not make him L. B. of VV. And why so M. St considering he is not Lorde but in respecte of some baronage and temporalties belonging and annexed to the See of VVinchester Ergâ⦠then ye graunt him to be Lorde B. by your owne words to whom the Q. highnesse as you graunt she may in respect of the temporalties and baronies belonging therto hath graunted and giuen him them Wherby she hath made him Lord except ye wil denie that hir highnesse authoritie which euen al your popish bishops did receiue before at hir graces progenitors hands neither the baronies and temporalties onely wheââ¦by they were named Lords but their inuestiture also wherby they were Byshops at the Princes handes But see stil how bluntly ye go to worke against your self for hast to remoue this title of Lord from the B. of W. ye ouerturn the glory of your own prelats For if this your rule be true that he is not called Lord but in respect of some baronies temporalties belonging and annexed to the See how many Cardinals Bishops Suffraganes Abbots Priors euen in Italie that haue neither baronies nor muche temporalties should léese their title of Lorde honour thinke you all these will be pleased with this your rule We must beare with you there is no remedie and well may M. Feck of friendship the B. of pitie beare with you also the Quéenes maiestie of hir gracious clemencie beareth with your saucie bluntnesse But assure your selfe and ye were as blunt playne as euer were your Marcolphus those Italian prelates if ye stayne their honour will neuer beare with you one iot And I rede you beware this bluntnesse for they can do much with your holy father the Pope except ye be so blunt ye care not for him neither But deale with them as ye may ye are blunt inoughe in your owne conceite for the finest of them all Let vs sée what reasons moueth you to be so blunt with the B. He is not L. Byshop of VVin. nor Prelate of the Garter Why so bicause he is no B. or Prelate at all How proue ye that he is an vsurper he is an intruder he is called therto by no lawfull vocation nor canonicall consecration c. he is no true B. c. his vocation is direct contrarie to the canons and constitutions of the Churche and to the vniuersall custome and maner heretofore vsed and practised not onely in Englande but also in all other Catholike countreys and Churches deliuered to vs from hande to hande from age to age euen from the first graââ¦fing and planting of the fayth especially in Englande Here are many blunt playne words in déede M. St. and many great crakes but here is no proofe of any do not think ye muste still be thus borne withall your to muche presuming of eche mans pacience to beare with your rudenesse will hazarde your credite to farre excepte ye alledge some reason of your sayings Let vs heare therefore what proues ye bring For the which I referre me say you to all autentike and auncient ⪠recordes as well of Englande as of other Nations concerning the ordinary succession of Bishops namely in the foresayde Sea of VVinchester for there was not no not one in that Sea that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome and that was not confirmed by the same vntil the late time of M. Poynet who otherwise also was an vsurper the true B. then liuing and by no lawfull or ecclesiasticall order remoued or depriued Ye are therefore the first B. of this sewt and race and so consequently no B. at al. As not able to shew to whom ye did ordinarily succede and any good or customable either vocation or coÌsecration VVhich point being necessarily required in a B. and in your Apostles Luther and Caluin other lacking as I haue otherwhere sufficieÌtly proued though you by depesilence thinke it more wisdome vtterly to desââ¦emble than once to answere they being therwith pressed were so messhed and bewrapped therein that they coulde not in this worlde witte what to say thereto answearing this and that they wiste neare what nor at what poynt to holde them yea Beza was fayne at the last assemblie at Poysie with silence to confesse the inuincible truth Setting aside these vaine crakes manifest lying slaunders which I referre to your common places M. St. I will answeare onely to your inuincible argument Which standeth vpon your common bragge of succession Your argument is this ye succeede no Bishop of VVinchester Ergo ye are no Bishop of VVincester I answere First if he meane succession of the person in the roome your antecedent is euident false He succeded the persons of Popishe Bishops in the same roome And the consequent followeth not For then the first Bishop of that Sea was no B. bicause he succeded none but was the first therââ¦f And if the first was none then the second was none and so there was neuer any at all If ye meane sucession of the doctrine and the Apostles rules then neyther Bishoppe Gardiner whom ye call the true B. nor any popishe Bishops haue succession but digression and defection from them And our Bishoppes haue the true succession that is to say followe the doctrine and orders of the Apostles prescribed in the worde of god for a Bishops office But howe do ye proue your antecedent Of all the Bishops not onely in Englande but in other nations namely in the Sea of VVinchester From hand to hand from age to age euen from the first grafting and planting of the fayth in Englande not one of them all no not one that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the sea of Rome and that was not confirmed by the same But you do not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor are confirmed by the same Ergo ye are the first Bishop of this sewt and race and so consequently no bishop at all as not able to shew to whome ye did ordinarily succeede or any good and customable eyther vocation or consecration This argument M. Stapleton is of a newe sewt and race it succedeth neither good nor customable moode or figure and therfore can make no good successe Howbeit lââ¦t vs sée the partes of it The minor we graunt as euident on the Bishops part For the maior we must put you to your proufe We affirme it to conteyne many euident falshoodes For proufe hereof
Princes that they mislyke and is in déede to be vtterly mislyked of all Christians But as this is a plaine description of your Popes supremacie that playeth in all these poynts Heraclius part so it nothing toucheth that supremacie that the Quéenes maiestie claymeth It is but your wicked malice to slaunder hir with such tyrannicall vsurpation of Heraclius as they condemne Whie doe ye not rather take theyr other comparison from Constantinus Pogonotus to al other godly Princes and referre that to hir regiment With what care and singuler diligence trauaile and godlinesse when the Churches were horibly deformed and torne by the sect of the Monothelites He summoned the sixt generall Councell he ouerwhelmed not the debating of the controuersie of doctrine by might or preiudice He willed the Ministers of the Churche and preachers of the worde of God to searche out which opinion was and which was not agreable to holye writte He regarded not the ensamples of hys auncesters who by publike Edictes had approued the doctrine of the Monothelites which was harde for him to abolishe Neyther did the authoritie of the Patriarches and Bishoppes in Constantinople and all ouer the East that stifly helde that opinion any thing moue him Nor he suffred himselfe to be made afrayde although he heard that the pryde of the Byshop of Rome was incredible as one that wickedly chalenged a dignitie and authoritie aboue other Bishops and teachers But sent his letters to him exhorting him to come or sende some other in his place Neyther gaue he him any prerogatiue nor craueth licence of hym to call the Councell but of hys owne duetie he defineth him selfe for the appoynting of the Councell He louingly biddeth the Romaine and other Bishoppes not to bee absent at so necessarie matters and concerning the Churches publike weale The Emperour himselfe is present at the Synode not as a dumbe or deafe person like a cifer in Algorisme or receyuing the decrees without iudging of them or placing the B. of Romes Legates in the chiefest place and receyuing them without all contradiction as oracles from them as it were from Apollos triuet but modestly reuerently and godly as much as became his calling he gouerned the Synode propounding to them the state or scope of the cause and enquiring on a rowe gathered their sentences togither least ought should be done rashly or confusedly He commaunded not the one partie but the contrarie partie also plainly and without subtilties to declare their opinions and what groundes they had of their sentences out of the holye scriptures and what autenticall witnesse of the approued fathers And so forth they declare howe indifferently he dealt with either partie knowing that he must not condemne any before he knewe the full matter And when it was euidently found out that the Monothelites could not defend their opinion by the clere testimonies of the scripture nor any sentences of the doctours allowed yea when it was founde out they hacked of purpose certaine of the Doctours sayings and in place of them cited certeyne sayings falsly fathered in the Doctors names theÌ the Emperor subscribed to the iudgemeÌt of al those that thought aright and earnestly and stoutly executed the condemnation made in the name of them all Here these wryters commend this Emperor the more for that he had about him no doubt say they such parasites as woulde tickle in his eare that these thinges were vnsitting foâ⦠his maiestie to intermeddle him selfe with the brawles of the Churches pelting Doctours It were a blemish to him to condemne his ancesters to cal into doubt or retract things already decreed This were not the safest way Let the bishops alone with the matter for euen they are able to make lawes agaynst the Emperors estate and abase it The Emperour by his authoritie may do no more than commaund silence sende into exile or punish with other violence those that make clamors or disobey the councels decree But the Emperor not regarding these fancies thought it honorable to him to be present in the midst of the teachers of gods worde assisting not a little the triall and iudgement of the coÌtrouersie This ensample these wryters thus set out for a princes gouernmeÌt dealing ouersight in the chiefest ecclesiastical causes And thus before they determined in generall that God or deined not Princes to spoile their subiects and make themselues ââ¦at Neither onely to attende to outward discipline and that men may liue in honest tranquilitie for say they seing that magistrates are in the scriptures called Gods this ought to bee their first and chiefest care that their subiects serue God after such a sorte that his kingdome in their dominions may bee knowne encreased and conserued that is to were sincere doctrine c. may be deliuered remaine passe froÌ theÌ to their posteritie To this end tendeth all politike administration all defence of peace and neighborhod that laborsome care of getting the liuing gathering goodes that these spirituall euerlasting goodes both of the body of the mind should be gotten Thus do they stretch out further than doth M. St. the bounds of a princes gouernment to al ecclesiastical canses And all that they write on the other part is against such a popish supremacie as establisheth maketh a new religioÌ quicquid imperitaââ¦erit reâ⦠And yet sée howe spitefully and falsly M. St. wresteth it as writteÌ against the Q. maiestie When as he confesseth himselfe they coÌmend hir euen by the ensample of Constantine they allow that supreme gouernment that she doth take vpon hir Now M. St. after his maner presupposing we will reiect these writers as though they spake against the supreme gouernmeÌt of the Quéene In case ye thinke sayth he theyr testimonie not to haue weight ynough then herken to your their Apostle Luther who writeth that it is not the office of kings princes to coÌfirm no not the true doctrine but to be subiect and serue the same The effect of this argument is this princes must not take on them so to confirme the true doctrine that they be not subiect therevnto nor serue but rule the same Ergo Princes may not set forth the true doctrine nor be supreme gouernors in their dominions ouer all ecclesiastical persons and causes This argument is like to his fellowe aboue And as ye wrested the former writers so wrest ye Luthers saying also whose seÌtence as it is nothing against the godly gouernment of our most noble soueraigne subiect to the principall authoritie of Gods word that it might be of chiefest authoritie subduing thereto the authoritie of all other writers remouing those superstitions that exalted them selues in authoritie equall or aboue Gods worde so this sentence is eftsones as the other agaynst such vsurpation as is euident that your Pope taketh vpon him But M. Stapleton dreaming that he hath so sore pressed vs and this is so harde and straunge a case that
now Luther can take no place amongst vs he obiecteth another vnto vs one Andreas Modrenius And yet his saying also maketh God wote ful little for the Papists herein Who saith there ought to be some one to be taken for the chiefe and supreme head in the whole Church in all causes ecclesiasticall What conclude ye M. St. herevpon Ergo it must be your Pope or no christian prince And here as though all these were not yet sufficient testimonies ye bring in Caluin But since ye doe it but to fill vp your booke with that common allegation of your side which being also not omitted of M. FeckeÌham is to be referred to be propounded and answered vnto in his proper place I therefore remit you thither Onely to that ye say he so spitefully handled King Henrie the eyght as hee neuer handled the Pope more spitefully I aunswere this is but your spitefull lie to deface the Protestantes Else why doe ye not proue the same And as for your Pope it is euident also he neuer handled him spitefully but onely reproued his vyces and errours by the worde of god But howe spitefullie your Pope and popishe Prelates so farre as they coulde handeled him and howe spitefully they handle all Protestantes that they maye once sette their spitefull spirituall fingers vppon all the worlde doeth sée And yet the silie Protestantes muste beare all the blame it is not ynoughe for them to beare the iniuryes This lesson ye learned of the Diuell of Dowgate to bite and whine also or rather ye doe as Esops Woolfe did chalenge the poore Lambe for troubling his water and to misuse him spitefully but thys mercifull Woolfe deuoured this spitefull Lambe He vrgeth vs farther in great outcryes with a sentence of one Anthonie Gilbie our own Countriman The summe of his argument is this Anthonie Gilbie an Englishe man speaketh verie vnreuerently and vnreligiously of King Henrie the eight Ergo the Protestantes now in England whatsoeuer they pretende and dissemble in wordes in heart mislike the Quéenes maiesties gouernment How doth this follow M. St and yet ye wrest Anthonie Gilbies sentence also He speaketh not of this supremacie neyther but in plaine wordes of such a supremacie in England as the Pope chalengeth all ouer Christendome Though therefore he be greatly to be blamed for his vnreuerent speach and for his vnaduised mistaking of hys Princes lawfull authoritie yet is he not to be belyed as though he spoke of all kinde of supremacie in all princes simplie It is a shame as they say M. St. euen to belie the Diuell But sée how the matter falleth out Ye haue brought Anthonie Gilbyes sentence agaynst vs and the Quéenes maiesties authoritie Haue ye not wel holpeÌ your self if this sentence also make flat agaynst your pope For if as he sayth therin truely Christ ought onely to be the head of the church the placing of any other displaceth him then is not the pope the head also but the placing of him displaceth christ But the Pope chalengeth to be the heade of the Churche also which our prince doth not Ergo not our prince but your Pope displaceth christ And thus thinking to beate vs ye still make a rodde for your owne Popes tale And here sodenly calling to mind how far he hath straied in forraging out these sentences he returneth a little to the Bishop setting on him for calling the Pope the Papists god in earth the archeheretike of Rome and that M. Fec would haue him reigne in the Queenes place Besturring himselfe with a heape of arguments to defende his Pope Besides his scoffes raylings and other rhetoricall floures quoted in his common places But first for his Pope sayth he VVe make no God of the Pope and sometimes perhaps no good man neyther In déede M. Stap. ye should haue more than both your handes full to make your Pope sometimes a good man ⪠ye néede not put perhaps to the matter It would pose him selfe and all the Diuels in hell and that oftentymes to worke such a miracle on him as that man of sinne that childe of perdition and aduersarie of God to become a good man. But yet I say beware howe ye speake such buggishe words of him as not to be a good man. Whose wil is law whose law is all power in heauen in earth in hell Nowe can this be an ill man Beware least this come to his eares M. Stap. and withall that ye make him not a God in earth Are not you of theyr religion that beléeue and confesse this principle ãâã deus noster Papa Our Lorde God the Pope Yea and as some say he is Plusque deuâ⦠If ye be beware his thunderbolt If ye be not whie defende ye him and his errors against the truth of God whie forsake you your most vertuous Prince to follow a straunger and that an yll man but you answere And yet we reuerence him for his office and authoritie that Christ so amply and honourably gaue him for preseruation of vnitie and quietnesse in his Church That ye reuerence him in déede and that is more adore him to is manifest But the patent of that his office and authoritie that ye crake Christe so amplie and so honorably gaue your Pope ye shewe none nor where nor how nor when he gaue it Only ye tell vs of the endes wherefore he gaue it For the preseruation of vnitie and quietnes in his Church But if these were the endes M. St. he hath forfeited his patent long ago That not onely disagreeth from the expresse wordes and commauÌdement of Christ but swerueth one Pope from another And how chance he setteth his own scholemeÌ his Canonists at no better vnitie his Thomists and his Scotistes his sects of Religions at no better quietnes than a tââ¦ade a snake togither how chance he agreeth no better with his Bishops his own colledge of cardinals How chance he falleth out so often with Emperours and kings setteth Princes their subiectes by the eares togither why fighteth he so fast with both his swordes like king Arthures dubble sworded knight why had he rather at this day that al christendome were in a broyle so much blââ¦ud were cruelly shedde than he would relent one inche of his honour one penie of his filthie gaine one iââ¦te of his errors Idolatries false dectrines that eueÌ are coÌfessed of his own secte giue place to the worde of God is this his preseruing of vnitie and quietnes in the Church of Christ or had he any such patent giuen him hath he not lost and lost it againe and will ye still reuerence and adore him for it Secondly where the Bishop calleth your Pope the arch-heretike of Rome Your wisedome say you with like truth also appeareth in that ye call the Pope the Archeheretike of Rome naming no man and so your wordes so liberally waÌtonly cast out do as well comprehende
spirituall Churche so on thys principle you gather a moste false assumption That the heads of this spiritual or mystical body the church of Christ are vicars parsons byshops archbyshops patriarkes and ouer them all the Pope In which assumption ye take for true grauÌted sundry manyfest errors flatly of vs denied chiefly foure The first about the spirituall and mysticall body of christ Wherin ye shew great vnskill not knowing what is ment by the spiritual mystical body For in that respect as there are no ciuil princes emperours kings or quéenes so there ar no Bishops neither no not Greke nor Scythian Gentile nor Iew neither male nor female but all the elect that haue bene are or shall be either in heauen aboue or here dispersed in any parte of the earth without any respect of person are al members and Christ the only head And so M. St. your selfe also call it the kingdome of the faythfull so that if any bishop be vnfaithful he is so far from beeing a head in this misticall corporation that he is no member or any part therof And your selfe confessed before that now theÌ your Pope was no good maÌ neither therfore vnfaithful hauing not the true liuely effectual faith in Christ as they only haue that be meÌbers of this body wherby he is quite excluded froÌ it Your first error therfore is in not discerning betwéene the inuisible and visible estate of the Church Secondly taking it as after contrarie to your former sayings ye seeme to expounde it to be the visible estate of the church saying coÌmoÌly called Christes catholike church then erre ye in that ye say vicars parsons bishops archbyshops and popes be rulers and heades of it For excepting parsons taking them for pastors Bishops the scripture knoweth none of thââ¦se rulers The other titles haue come in since with deanes archââ¦eacoÌs abbots priors cardinals patriarches c. although I speake not against the names of theÌ no not of the name of Pope neither which béeing well vsed I reueriÌce admit but against the Popish hierarchie proud abuse of them And therfore thirdly where ye say the Pope is ouer them all that he is so ouer all those degrées in your Churche I graunte ye but that he is so ouer those or any other degrées in the true visible Churche of Christ it is but your facing maner to take that for confessed that is chiefly denyed Fourthly that ye affirme the Pope and his Prelates gouernemente chiefly to serue for the furtheraunce and encrease of the Spirituall kyngdome of Chryst where it is euident to the contrarie what hauocke and decrease so muche as they can these Rulers make of the members of Christes Churche to maynteine infidelitie and exautorate the worde and kingdome of Christ thereby M. Stap. now presupposing that the christian Princes gouernement is only outward and for the body and coÌmon with the heathen and stretcheth no further and that on the other parte the Pope ouer al and his fleshly chaplens vnder him are the heades and meÌbers of the spiritual and mysticall body of Christ nowe he will proue and God before that this gouernement of the pope his chaplaines is far aboue the kings gouernement and that kings he subiect therto Now sayth he as the soule of man incomparably passeth the body so doth this kingdome the other and the rulers of these the rulers of the other And as the body is subiecte to the soule so is the ciuill kingdome to the spirituall His reason is thus The soule or spirite incomparably passeth the body The kings gouernement is onely for the body and the Priests gouernement onely is for the soule and spirite Ergo the Priestes gouernement incomparably passeth the Kinges As this argument is noughte so the conclusion béeing rightly vnderstoode dothe noughte infirme the Princes supreme gouernement ouer all ecclesi causes For thoughe the maior be true the minor is moste false that the kinges gouernement is onely for the body Yea though the spirituall gouernement be onely the Priestes yet the gouernement ouer spirituall matters and matters apperteyning to the soule may still for all that and dothe belong euen ouer the Priests to the Prince Neither dothe M. St. proue the coÌtrarie or alledge ought for his minor than as we haue heard the foresaide principles of limiting the Princes gouernement to be all one with the Turkes But you might haue done well M. Stap. to haue eââ¦sed your paynes euen here and haue troubled your selfe no further to proue your matter if these your vaine presupposals be such true and vndoubted principles But as though we had alredy graunted them M. St. still goeth on To the which kingdome sayth he as well Princes as other are engrafted by baptisme and become subiects to the same by spirituall generation as we become subiectes to our princes by course and order of natiuitie which is a terrestrial generation The argument is thus As the childe that is borne by a terrestriall generation in the earthly Princes kingdome is subiect to the earthly Prince so euen the Prince being borne againe by spirituall generation is become subiect to the spirituall kingdome But the rulers of the spirituall kingdom are the pope c. Ergo the Prince is become subiect to them Thus fondly still ye reason on your principle in so much that we can say nothing agaynst you But nowe while ye thinke ye may say what ye will sodenly see how ye haue ouerturned these your mightie principles with a trippe of your owne contrarie sayings euen in the same place Furthermore say you as euery man is naturally bounde to defende mainteyne encrease adorne ⪠and amplifie his naturall countrey so is euery man bounde and much more to employ himselfe to his possibilitie towarde the mition and defence furtheranee and amplification of this spiritual kingdome and most of all the princes themselues As such which haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie toward the same by reason of their great authoritie and temporall sworde to ioyne the same as case requireth with the spirituall sworde Thinke ye this to be true indéede M. St. may we trust you on your wordes then is religion an ende of the Princes gouernment which a little before ye not onely most vntruly denyed but buylded as ye thought iolye arguments therevpon All whiche come nowe downe of themselues with an heaue and hee your selfe pulling awaye the soundation wherevppon they were buylt And nowe ye make an other platforme contrarie to the former which is that Princes moste of all are bounde as those that haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie towarde the same to employ them selues to their possibilities to these endes to defende mainteyne encrease adorne and amplifie not onely the ciuill peace and prosperitie but much more the spirituall kingdome And ioyne the temporall sworde with the spirituall sworde as the case requireth Upon this as a better platforme than the
them when both the ensamples that ye make your similitude from and the matter that ye apply them too are false For a man may be master of a shippe though he neuer was a maryner in the shippe and also ââ¦e made the Maior of the towne wherein he was neuer citizen before As many a noble or gentleman is made the captayne of a forte of a towne or an armie that neuer was prest before a souldier and yet a good captayne to hauing the knowledge howe to gouerne souldiers though he him selfe were none Yea to draw néerer than mariners Maiors captaines reade ye not that S. Ambrose was neuer so much as any of the clergie and that more is no not baptized yet he was a better byshop than the best bishop of the Romish making now or than the byshop of Rome him selfe yea your holy Pope Felix 5. was he before he was Pope any other than as ye call it a méere lay man neither Cardinall Byshop Priest nor had so much that we reade of as your benet collet and therfore your examples are not true of Maior Pilot that they must haue bene citizen mariner before And yet where herevpon ye would néedes haue christian Princes to be spirituall men if they should be supreme gouernours of spiritual matters it is graunted you and so they be And if you thinke godly christian Princes not to be spiritual but vtterly voyde of spiritualnesse then is this in you a lying and carnall spitefulnesse All godly Princes yââ¦a all godly persons are spiritual and that muche better than any shaued or oyled massing priest But if ye meane after the common distinction those that haue any spirituall office in the ministerie of the worde and sacraments as deacons elders byshopâ⦠c. then your similitude as is before declared fayleth Such Offices are not necessarie to haue gone before in a Supreme gouernour ouer them although the knowledge is necessarie how to gouerne them Besides this the proportion of your similitude fayleth in that to proue a supreme gouernour should withall be a spiââ¦ituall man yoâ⦠alledge ensamples of suche gouernours as be not but haue bene suche or suche persons before and so from the master which hath bene a maryner and nowe iâ⦠â⦠master you conclude the prince béeing a gouernour in spiritual matters should withal be a spiritual person Neither doth the proportion hold in the necessarie relation of the similitude from a Maââ¦or to his citizen from a master of a ship to a mariner seruing in the ship which hath relation froÌ the gouernours to the parties in their offices gouerned to any like relation betwéene a supreme gouernour ouer eccl. causes persons to a spirituall person ⪠but from a spirituall gouernour to a spirituall subiect this were the right relation Now the Prince néedeth neither to haue bene a spiritual subiect nor yet a spirituall person in your common sense of spiritualtie neither so claymeth he to be a spirituall gouernour And therefore neither the ensamples of your similitude nor the proportion holdeth But sée how still your owne tale ouerturneth your selfe For if his principall gouernement resteth in ciuil matters as immediatly ye say that in that respect he is supreme gouernour of al persons in his realme but not of their actions why is he not of their actions also syth they be ciuil or temporal matters in which respect he is their supreme gouernor is it not bicause though he be their supreme gouernor yet he professeth not all their seueral offices scieÌces handy crafts mysteries or vocations and so is not a dealer in their actions which hindreth nothing his principal gouernemeÌt ouer them al that he is nor euer was a prentise of any of their sciences nor practiseth the actions of their callings being all ciuill matters And yet say you truely he hath the principall gouernement in ciuill matters But why then also notwithstanding the prince dealeth not with the actions of spirituall men may he not haue a principall gouernement in spirituall matters thoughe him selfe haue not the spirituall function or office of a spirituall man Doe ye not ââ¦Ã©e by your owne wordes that to haue a principall gouernement or to be a supreme gouernor ouââ¦r all persons and matters ⪠is one thing and to do all the particuler actions of those persons or matters is another thing not requisite in the supreme gouernour and why then wilfully confounde ye them so often as though we made the Prince the doer of the actions bicause we acknowledge the Prince the gouernour of the matters And why sayde ye before in your last similies that he coulde not be a principall gouernour of any ciuill matters excepte he had bene a doer of the actions and as it were a prentise to the occupation before concluding the like for a gouernour of spiritual persons and causes that he must be a spirituall man and do the spirituall actions But if now béeing better aduised ye perceiue that a man may be a gouernour in ciuil matters and yet be not the doer of the ciuill actions I then conclude likewise for spirituall matters that the Prince may be a supreme gouernour in spirituall causes and yet the same not the doer of the spirituall actions The two vntruthes therfore M. Stap. that ye gather of the Byshop saying VVherefore we haue heere two vntruthes the one in an vntrue definition the other in saying the Prince is supreme gouernour in all causes spirituall are no vntruthes The Byshops definition is clearer and truer than yours Neither haue ye or hitherto coulde ye improue his conclusion with all your ensamples or your similitudes Yea euery similitude that ye haue made béeing throughly weyed hath proued the Byshops conclusion and confuted and contraried your selfe But beside al this we haue sayth M. St. a playne contradiction of M. Horne directly ouerthrowing his owne assertion heere The Bishoply rule and gouernement of Gods Church sayth M. Horne coÌsisteth in three poyntes to feede the Church with Gods word to minister Christes Sacraments and to bynde and lose to gouerne the Churche sayth he after this sorte belongeth to the onely office of Byshops and Church ministers and not to Kinges Queenes and Princes The like he hath afterwarde Now then these being by his owne confession the actions that properly belong to Ecclesiasticall persons and the Prince by his sayd confession hauing nothing to do therewith how is it then true that the Prince is the onely supreme head and gouernour in causes Ecclesiasticall Yea in those that do properly belong to persons Ecclesiasticall or by what colour may it be defended that this saying is not plaine contradictorie and repugnant to this later saying which we haue alleaged and whereof we shall speake more largely when we come to the saide place There is no doubt M. St. but ye will recken it vp there at large and here also and in many other places ye still sing Decies repetita placebunt
lesse affectioned than Thomas telling vs that Thomas sayeth plainly that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the only supreme head of the whole Church And yet when he hath all done Thom. plainly sayth not so it is but our Thomas his plaine lye And though Thomas him selfe in that he sayde made also a plaine lye as ãâã ãâã affectioned to the Pope yet shoulde you haue ãâã ãâã wordes more truely master Stapleton if ye ãâã ãâã pressed the Bishop with his authoritie But for ãâã ãâã Thomas his partialitie woulde soone be ãâã ââ¦o ãâã more weight thereto ye say Saint Thomas proueth his assertion by Cyrill and Mââ¦ximus two notable and auncient wryters among the Gââ¦ans VVherefore it followeth that neyther master Feckenham nor master Horne nor any other Christian man can knowe the contrarie beeing such an euident and daungerous falsehood as importeth eternall damnation Sée howe one Thomas here were it but for name-sake woulde still helpe another Thomas he careth not by what meanes hooke or crooke both belying Thomas and these notable fathers also Where sayd Thomas your wordes aboue alleaged Where had he them out of Cyrill and Maximus where haue Cyrill and Maximus that assertion Shew it and then you cleare your selfe In deede Thomas being a late affectioned writer herein alleageth proufes out of both Cyrill Max. but they proue no such assertion Cyrill hath no such wordes in his booke of Thesaurus and that epistle of Maximus is not extant for ought that I can learne and yet Thomas doth but wrest both their sayings to proue his title that it is of necessitie of saluatioÌ to be vnder the B. of Rome The sentence that he fathereth out of Cyril to proue his saying and yet notwithstanding proueth it not is this Itaque fratres c. Therefore brethren if wee followe Christ let vs as his sheepe heare his voyce abyding in the Churche of Peter and let vs not be puft vp with the winde of pryde least peraduenture the winding serpent cast vs out for conteÌtion as long since it cast Eue out of paradise Can you or Thomas or any other coÌclude your assertion or anything for your Pope on this saying ye wil vrge these wordes the Church of Peter Thinke ye he ment the church to be S. Peters patrimonie as ye terme it or the Church of S. Peters dominion if ye so thinke S. Peter hym self gaynsayth it saying that he is him self but ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã consenior a fellowe Elder or Priest and witnesse of Christes passions and not the Lord but Christ the Lorde of his Church and him selfe with other not to be rulers and princes among the clergy but they be only pastors formes of the flocke Christ alone being the Prince of the Pastors So that if you meane hereby S. Peter to be the owner and Lorde of the Church as your Pope at this day taketh on him to be this sentence maketh nothing for him but quite agaynst him For neither doth the Pope followe the humilitie of Christ nor heare his voyce as Cirill willeth neither followeth he Peter of whome he craketh but is puft vp with the winde of pride Whiche Cirill forbiddeth and therfore is cast out with the winding serpent But what Cirill meaneth by the church of Peter euen the other sentence following may declare of Maximus Coadunatam fundatam super Petram confessionis Petri dicimus vniuersalem ecclesiaâ⦠sicundum definitionem saluatoris in qua necessario salutis animarum nostraruÌ est remanere ei obedire suam seruantes fidem confessionem VVe call that the vniuersall Church according to the definition of our Sauiour the which is vnited togither and founded vpon the Rocke of Peters confession in the which it is necessarie to remayne for the saluation of our soules and to obey it keeping the fayth and confession thereof This sentence well expoundeth the other The Church of S. Peter that is to say the Church vnited and founded vpon the rocke of Peters confession not of Peters rule and patrimonie but of his confession which Rocke is onely Christe the corner stone on whome onely the Churche is founded and in whome as liuely stories of the buylding we are vnited To this Churche in déede muste we be obedient and remayne in it kéeping the fayth and confession thereof But what doth this proue for the obedience to the Pope his Church dothe it not rather detect his church not to be the vniuersal Church wherof Maximus speaketh that Christ hath defined howsoeuer the Papistes crake of the vniuersall church syth it is not vnited togither on the rocke but on the sands of mens traditions and founded as you say vpon Peter not as Christ sayd vpon the Rocke ⪠Since it kéepeth not this faith confession nor remaineth in it nor obeyeth it it is not Christes true vniuersall Church neither ought we to remayne in it or obey it But as the Angell calleth vs exite de illa populus mens c. Come out of hir my people and be not partakers of hir offences least ye taste also of hir plagues And thus by Maximus saying howsoeuer Thomas as an affectionate late writer doth wrest the same to the obedience of the Pope and his Churche when we examine Christes true definition and Peters confession we finde that we are obliged and bounde to renounce the Pope and his Churche and that vpon payne of euerlasting damnation But nowe M. Stapl. let vs also sée your owne proper argumentes oute of Thomas Thomas sayth the Pope is the only supreme head of the whole Church wherin he quite excludeth Christ Ergo we are obliged and bound to beleeue the same vpon payne of euerlasting damnation Thomas sayth we are obliged and bounde to beléeue the Popes supremacie vpon payne of damnation Ergo the B. is to be charged with malicious and wilfull ignoraunce Thomas sayth we are obliged and bounde to beleeue the Popes supremacie vpon payne of damnation Ergo M. Feckenham is fully and effectually discharged of malicious and wilfull ignorance Thomas his distinction of ignoraunce is alledged of the Byshop Ergo the Byshop is bounde to allowe his authoritie simply in all matters or in this of the Byshop of Romes supremacie Thomas cyteth Cirill and Maximus to proue his assertion Ergo ⪠the matter is so playne that the Byshop nor any other can know the contrarie These writers say so or rather as is shewed are wrested to say that they say not Ergo it is suche an euidente and dangerous falshood as importeth eternall damnation These are the wise and worshipfull conclusions to repeate your owne termes that ye gather on the authoritie of Thomas bicause the byshop cited him in the sayde diuision of ignoraunce wherefore ye say he shall vvinne small vvorship by alleaging of S. Thomas Howbeit you to win much worship and great honor by alleaging him haue aduentured
to lay all your honestie to pledge M. Stapletons seconde parte about vntruthes is answered sufficiently in his bedroll In the third part be confesseth that wherwith the byshop chargeth M. Feck that in king Henries dayes he set foorth this supremacie in his open sermons But withall to excuse him he saith it was not vpon knowledge but vpon very ignorance and lacke of true knowledge and due consideration of the matter ⪠What ignorance cal ye this M. St if it be not malicious it is of simplicitie yea and wilfull carelesnesse withal ⪠yet before ye sayde he was discharged of all three and héere contrarying your own selfe ye charge him again with two of them at the least besides that ye there sayde Surely if there were any ignorance in this poynt it vvere inuincible ignorance by no studie or diligence able to be put away and therfore pardonable But is this suche ignorance when héere ye confesse that he studied not for it but did it without due coÌsideratioÌ of the matter therfore it was not pardonable eueÌ by your own saying Thus while ye would excuse him of ignoraÌnce do not only accuse him of ignorance but also declare such great ignoraÌce in your self that it séemeth ye neither well wot nor muche care what ye say so that ye may contende Neither shame you in this poynt whyle ye would mitigate M. FeckeÌhams fault to accuse with him of ignoraunce no fewer than all yea the beste learned of the realme then to whom it was not so well knowne ye saye as it is nowe to euery man beeing but of meane learning To the proofe whereof ye cite sir Thomas More that tyll his latter time did neuer of many yeres beléeue the Popes supremacie to be prouided by God and therefore M. Feck with many other good and well learned men otherwise was caried away among them with the violence of this common storme and tempest for lacke of mature and deepe consideration Where as nowe all Papistee suche as haue trauelled in these latter controuersies do beleeue that the Popes primacie was immediatly instituted of God and that it is Iure diuino by Gods lawe and not the Princes supreme gouernment which is now knowne clerely to stand agaynst it Héere is no argument all this whyle for it but onely defacing of their predecessors learning and knowledge to aduaunce their owne which notwithstanding it be nothing comparable in all wyse mens iudgements yet is it worthy to beholde the grosse presumptuous impudencie of these Louanistes that as though they came from the newe Indies that say other men are blinde or haue but one eye and they onely haue two so these wryters pretende they haue suche knowledge nowe yea the meane learned among them as the very best learned before them had not the lyke who were not resolued herein nor sawe so muche as they now do in the Popes authoritie For they haue espied now at the leÌgth with their Linxes eyes that the Pope his primarie is de lure diuino of the law of God which thing euen Sir Thomas More did not sée who a great whyle was so blinde herein that he thought it but the Churches institution at length full dimly God wot he thought that he saw it was prouided of God. But nowe euery meane learned Louanist hath espied through a milstone to vse M. Stapletons owne phrase and cleerely seeth and knoweth it is ex lure diuino instituted by God immediatly Who would haue thought they had bene then so blinde vnlesse M. Stapl. had told vs they were so or that our Louanistes had bene waxen so cunning to haue found out of late that they could neuer sée before no doubt they had turned ouer and ouer both the Old and the New Testament many a time and I warrant ye all to haue found out this immediate institution of God and yet was it neuer their happe vnfortunate blinde buzzardes that they were to light on the place of this Institution But now the Bible and Testament hath bene so turned and tossed once againe at Louaine and that with such cléere eye sights that it is plainly founde out yea and so cléere that euery man of meane learning knoweth it that the Pope is supreme head ouer all the whole Church instituted by God immediatly to be obeyed vnder the paine of eternall condemnation O happie man for the Pope whose estimation and welth began so fast to decay that yet at the last hath founde out this institution I warrant ye like to weare a Cardinals hatte M. Stap if you haue had so good lucke to finde this out But I pray you since it is so plaine a place that all your side now cléerely séeth it shew where aboutes in the Bible or Testament it is I haue of purpose turned them ouer ere now also yet could I neuer haue the hap to sée this But I hope your sight be better than mine I pray you tell vs where it is do but quote the place is it not peraduenture on the backe side of your booke for in your booke it is to be doubted ye shal finde no more than could those learned men before you finde out That it was ordayned but Iure humano by the law of man. And where ye crake so much that ye haue now founde it instituted lure diuino by the law of God I am afrayd it will in the ende be found out to haue ben forged ãâã fraude Diabolââ¦ca by the iniurie and craft of Sathan That it is not Iure diuino by Gods lawe your selfe alleaging no place or proofe besides your onely vaunt fearing ye should be put to the proofe of your crake ye starte from it againe by admitting that if ye could not as ye caÌ not proue so much as ye haue made boast of though the Popes primacie say you were not ordeyned of God yet could it not be reiected by any one realme And although the Popes primacie were not grounded directly vppon Goddes worde but ordeyned of the Churche yet could it not be abrogated by the priuate consent of any one or fewe realmes no more than the Citie of London can iustly abrogate an acte of Parliament The sequcle of this argument M. Stapleton is nought by thrée wayes First by presupposing an impossible absurditie that the true Churche of Christ should ordeyne any other necessary doctrine to saluation than God hath ordeyned or is grounded on his woorde The spouse of Christ heareth hir husbande my sheepe saith Christ heare my voice and not the voice of a straunger SecoÌdly if this absurditie were admitted that the church of Christ should or could as it caÌ not ordeine other things yet should not we be bounde to follow it no though an Angell came from Heauen to teach vs any thing that is not onely contrarie but euen praeter besides the woorde of god And thus the Fathers of the Church theÌ selues haue taught vs to reiect it as easily
novv But then is it most euident that the Popishe Churche is not the true Churche nor was figured hereby at all For first the popishe Prestes deliuered not a coppie of the lawe of God to wete of the Old and New testament vp into their Kings Queenes and Princes handes to write it out and haue it alwaies by them to studie vppon but rather do the contrary as did the Pharisies keping the key of knowledge away from them of purpose telling them it appertaineth not to their estates but that they may go play them or employ them selues in other foreigne matters onely the worde of God they must in no case meddle withall which belongeth alonely to the Priests Nor they will be bounde to deliuer vp to their Princes any coppie thereof at all But thus much yet they will do for their Princes to giue them a péece here and there and that either must be the bare letter as M. Stapleton calleth it or els such expositions as it shall please them to leauen the dough withall And is this now the perfect bodie of that shadow the veritie of that figure set forth in Moses order or not rather the full accomplishing of the Scribes and Pharisies doings whom they haue so followed in not giuing vp a coppie to their Princes in wresting defacing and taking away Gods worde that theirs may better be said to be a very shadow and figure of the Popish priests dealings herein And that we rather expresse the veritie of that figure and shadow of Moses order rendring vp to our Princes a full perfect and sincere coppie of Gods lawe that they may write it out set it forth haue it by them and meditate therein day and night as King Dauid counsayleth to learne thereby to be wise and feare the Lord their God and by them all their subiects And thus his importune vrging of this place hath so properly helpt his matter forwarde that where he saith the Bishop left it quite out as making directry against him what soeuer the Bishop did it had bene better for M. Stapl. to haue left it quite out also or not to haue triumphed so much on that which at the better view thereof so directly maketh against all his popishe Priestes But for all this M. Stapleton will proue that the popish priestes must not onely haue the handling of Gods worde but also that they can not be deceyued nor erre in the sense thereof And this will he proue euen by the Protestants them selues For sayth he as the Protestants them selues are forced by plaine wordes to confesse that they knowe not the true worde or booke of God but by the Churche whiche from time to time deliuered these bookes euen so by all reason and learning they shoulde also confesse that the Churche can no more be deceyued in deliuering the sense of the sayde worde than in deliuering the worde it selfe VVhich seeing they will not confesse for then we were forthwith at a point and ende with all their errours and heresies they must nedes continue in the same The argument is this The Protestants confesse that they know not the worde of God but by the Churche of Christ that kéepeth witnesseth and agnizeth the same from time to time Ergo the Protestants must néedes confesse that the Church he meaneth the Popishe priestes in deliuering of the worde can not be deceyued in the sense thereof In stéede of aunswere hereto master Stapleton him selfe maketh a preoccupation for perceyuing the falsenesse and follie thereof woulde soone be reiected VVhich seeing sayth he they will not confesse for then we were at a point with all their errours and heresies they must needes continue in the same Do we not confesse master Stapleton that ye woulde haue vs confesse why then haue ye reasoned all this while thus fondly taking that for confessed which your selfe now are forced by plain wordes to confesse that we confesse not but vtterly denie that you be the Catholike Church that you haue deliuered these bookes from time to time which you haue rather hid away that you can not erre in the sense ââ¦f the scripture and such like wrong principles Which in déede if we shoulde falsely confesse with you then all the matter were at a poynt and ende as ye saye But since we denie it and reiect your fonde reasoning à petitione principij it is tyme that ye séeke out other arguments more substantiall or else as your cause is at a poynte or not worth a poynt so in conclusion ye stande on this poynt to slaunder vs as following euery man his owne heade and that we shal neuer haue done and errours will neuer cease more and more to encrease and multiplie vnlesse we take forth say you the lesson I haue shewed you And what lesson is that Forsooth that we must graunt and confesse to be most true all these your false principles And then we shall be your white sonnes and good scholers I dare say if once we would conne that lesson Ye would giue vs a fat remedie and leaue to play the fooles truands all day long if we would learne that lesson of yours But such scholemasters as yâ⦠are such schollers ye desire to haue and suche lessons ye take them forth Caecus autem si caeco ducatum prestet ambo in foueam cadunt If the blinde leade the blinde both of them fall into the ditch Thus ye deceyued the princes and people in tymes past But God be praysed both Princes and people haue now taken forth that lesson out of Gods holy word that ye could not or neuer would teach read or expound vnto them Nowe when ye haue redde this lesson vnto vs with so false a glosse and commentarie vpon the text as ye complaine left out ye determine that the best remedie were the exact obseruation of this place that ye haue say you so wilyly and sleightly slipt ouer This is but a poynt of your apparant impudencie master Stapleton to set a beââ¦de face on the matter for God knoweth ye would nothing lesse than that the diligent reader shoulde exactly obserue this place Whiche if he did this place alone were there no more woulde sufficiently shewe howe ye haue haled and racked it and all the lawe of God besides That this place therefore if the exact obseruation thereof be the best remedie to your cause as ye say might remedie your cause the better I haue somewhat the more exactly obserued it and if your cause haue founde any remedie thereby muche good doe it you ye shall haue more of it So that I trust yée shall not néede to complaine of ouerslipping any thing materiall Which least ye should doe the Chapter shall be yet more exactly obserued than perchaunce ye would haue it to be And to begin with that ye quarrell at next as wilily and sleightly slipt ouer But most of all say you another sentence in the verie said Chapter And euen the next to this
nowe But all godly Princes ought so to do as Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo the Quéenes Maiestie doth now as all godly Princes ought to do To proue that she doth as did king Iosaphat your selfe confesse that he reformed religion and was carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters But the Queenes Maiesties clayme is none other herein but this to reforme religion and to be carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo King Iosaphats doings and hirs are not vnlike But this importeth in hir a supreme gouernment Ergo King Iosaphats example hitteth home the Butte and is a fitte patterne to hir and all godly Princes of supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Here séeing that for fashions sake where ye durst not denie the manifest truth ye haue graunted so much that in déede ye haue graunted all ye would now restraine your graunt and say it was conditionall that though all Princes may reforme religion and with care and diligence direct all ecclesiasticall matters yet they must do it in suche sort as Iosaphat did and therefore leauing your simple and generall termes of reformation and direction by godlye Princes yée will haue them perticulerly leueled by that sort that Iosaphat did them Whiche as we gladly graunt you in all thinges that Iosaphat did well and godly as were the moste of his doings and in al that which the Bishoppe rehearseth yet in some thinges Princes muste not doe in that sort but go beyonde him For althoughe for the moste part he did those thinges Quae placââ¦ta erant domino That were acceptable to the Lorde ãâã en excelsa non abstulit Notwithstanding he tooke not away the high places wherein godly princes muste do after a more zealous sort than Iosaphat did As for all those things that the Bishop citeth sée that ye stand to your graunt made vnto vs that Iosaphat reformed religion and vsed care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters and then that godly princes may at this day do all the same And feare ye not but we will also graunt to you and not starte therefrom that they may reforme religion and directe ecclesiasticall matters in such sort as Iosaphat did And so excepte ye be disposed to quarell or will falsefie the sorte and manner of Iosaphats or the Quenes Highnesse doings I trust we shall anon agree herein They may do it say you in such sort as Iosaphat did that is to reforme religion by the priests First this is very subtilly spoken master Stapleton by the priests if ye meane by the aduise or godly counsell of the prestes true it is so might king Iosaphat well haue done If ye meane by the authoritie and commaundemente of the priestes then is it false nor you can euer proue that Iosaphat did it by theyr commaundement and authoritie but they contrarywise by his Nowe in suche sort as Iosaphat did hath the Quéenes Maiestie done and this proueth bothe their supremacies herein Not to enact say you a new religion which the priestes of force shall sweare vnto Indéede this did not Iosaphat no more hath the Quéenes Maiestie done it is but your surmised sclander Item to suffer the priests to iudge in controuersies of religion not to make the decision of suche things a parliamente matter This latter parte of your sentence is agayne but youre manifest sclander to suffer the priestes to iudge in controuersies of religion after the rule of Gods word and not after their owne pleasures in suche sorte Iosaphat not onely suffred but ordeyned them commanded and ouersaw them so to do and so doth the Quéenes maiestie And this sufferance commaundement and ouersight argueth their chiefe authorities Item not to prescribe a newe forme order in ecclesiasticall causes but to see that according to the lawes of the church before made the religion be set forthe as Iosaphat procuââ¦ed the obseruation of the old religion appointed in the lawe of Moyses And euen thus and none otherwise hath the Quéenes Maiestie procured the obseruation of the old religion of Iesus Christ whome Moyses prefigured and the orders of the apostles and most auncient fathers after them to be restored remouing as Iosaphat did all other newe formes and orders of ecclesiasticall abuses And this restoring and procuring of the aunciente religion and ceremonies the suppressing and abolishing of new is againe in both these princes a good argument of their supreme gouernement Briefly say you that he do all this as an aduocate defender and son of the Churche with the authoritie and aduice of the cleargie so Iosaphat furdered religion not otherwise Your word aduocate how it came vp is declared already but neither aduocate defender sonne or daughter herein are any thing contrary to supreme gouernour But where ye adde al these words aduocate defender and sonne to the prince and to the cleargy authoritie aduice this sheweth your subtile deuise to deceyue princes with youre paynted termes But princes begin to waxe wise and learned as Dauid exhorted them and perceaue howe ye haue foaded them with these names and stiles that were but nomen sine re a bare name without any matter for the authoritie and aduice ye reserued to your selues The princes to whome ye gaue these gay titles had neither authoritie nor might giue their aduice according as Hosius woulde not haue them so much as to talke of matters of religion much lesse to reforme religion to directe ecclesiasticall matters with care and diligence as before ye graunted And nowe to eate againe your worde ye woulde haue them be carefull and diligent without aduice reforme and direct without authoritie of their owne except onely the clergies aduice and authoritie Thinke ye Iosaphat did so not otherwise as ye sayâ⦠ye may well tell vs so but the Scripture telleth vs otherwise howe he gaue aduice to the Clergie and by his authoritie directed them though I denie not he might vse their aduice and admitte their authoritie to yet the supreme authoritie apperteyned vnto him Not say you as a supreme absolute gouernour contrary to the vniforme consent of the whole clergie in full conuocation yea and of all the Bishops at once This worde absolute is but your absolute and malicious slaunder M. Stap. Such absolute supreme gouernment did your Pope vsurpe as sayth Franciscus de Ripa that the Popes power is absolute and that he may do what he will. As Baldus in the proheme of the decrées alleageth that his power is absolute from all bondes and from all rule of restraint And that we must beléeue him absolutely as Marcus Mantua and Pope Boniface himselfe affirmeth Thus doth not the Quéenes maiestie no more did king Iosaphat and therefore I inferre the conclusion that the Queenes Maiestie doth all these things in such sort as losaphat did them excepting these quarelous slaunders which are your owne put them vp in your purse agayne master Stapleton and
ought to counte the Canonicall scriptures in so much that I might not their honour which is due to those men saued improue or refuse any thing in their writinges ⪠c. And writing to Paulina of the credite to be giuen to the Scripture Alijs vero testibus c. As for any other witnesses saith he or testimonies whereby thou arte moued to beleue ought to be it is lawfull for thee to beleeue it or not to beleeue it And so saith S. Herome Quod scripturae sacrâ⦠authoritatem non habet eadem facilitate contemnitur qua recipitur That that hath not authoritie of the holy Scripture is as easily dispised as receyued So saith Chrysostome Nullis omnino credendum nisi dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis sanctis Thou must beleue none without they say or do those things that are agreeable to the Scriptures And againe Si quid absque scriptura dicitur c. If any thing be spoken without the Scripture the knowledge of the hearers halteth nowe graunting now staggering now and then detesting the talke as vayne now and then as probable receyuing it But wheras the scripture is there the testimonie of Gods voice commeth forth both confirming the talke of the speaker and confirming the minde of the hearer So S. Cyprian Legat hic vnum verbum c. Let him reade the onely woorde and on this commaundement let the christian religion meditate and out of this scripture he shall finde the rules of all doctrine to flowe and to spring from hence and hither to returne what soeuer the Churches discipline doth conteyne So saith Cyrill Necessarium nobis est diuinas sequi liter as in nullo ab earum prascripto discodere It is necessââ¦rie for vs to follow the diuine writinges and to swerue in nothing from their prescript rule And ãâã these Fathers so all the Doctours be plaine not to allow much lesse to determine any doctrine not onely contrarie but also besides the worde of God. Nor the Auncient doctours onely but also diuerse of the popish writers affirme that neither the Churche the Bishops the Pope nor any prouincial or generall couÌcel hath powre to determine any doctrine to be true or false otherwise than onely by the authoritie of the Scriptures to declare them so to be So saith Thomas of Aquine In doctrina Christs Apostolorum c. In the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles all truth of faith is sufficiently layde forth Howbeit to beat downe the errours of heretikes and of peruerse men certaine opinions of faith ought many times to be declared And of the same minde also is your great captaine Frier Alphonsus de Castro who attributing farre more to the popish Church and the Pope than he ought to do yet in this point after long disputation and argumentes on the matter he concludeth Nullo ergo modo c. It can by no meanes therefore be that the church may make any new article of faith but that the which before was the true faith and yet was hidde from vs the churche by hir censure maketh that it may be knowne vnto vs Whereuppon appeareth that my Lord Abbate did miserably erre who expounding the chapter that beginneth Cââ¦m Christus which is had in the booke of the Decretall epistles in the title de Hereticis saith that the Pope can make a newe article of the faithe But he must be borne withall being ignorant nor well weighing of what thing he spake this onely I see must be laide in his dish that he Iudged beyond the slipper for it is not the office of Canonistes to Iudge of heresie or of faith but the office of Diuines to whom Gods lawe is committed The Canonistes partes are to descant of the Popes lawe Looke they to it therefore least while they couet to sit on both stooles the taile come to grounde as is the Prouerbe Thus sharpely concludeth Alphonsus against my Lord Abbate and all popish Canonistes that would intermedle with writing in Diuinitie I knowe not whether you Master Stapleton were any such or nâ⦠but many of your site are euen such as he speaketh of that woulde studie bothe the Popes lawes and Gods lawes togither and so lay them both in the duste For ãâã ãâã Christi Behal VVhat felowship is there betwene Christ and Belial Thus writeth he that neither the Pope nor his ãâã nor the Church can determine faith or hereââ¦ie without the worde of God. And so saith Ferus Cum contââ¦leris falsaâ⦠doctrinââ¦m c. When you shall conferre the false doctrine ye shall finde out the errour For the onely holy Scripture is the rule of the truthe from the which whatsoeuer differeth or doth contrarie it is darnell and errour in what countenaunce soeuer outwarde it come forthe For he that is not with me is against me saith Christe Herevppon the Apostles and Disciples in the primitiue Churche did dayly search the Scriptures whether they were so or no. For oft time it commeth to passe that that is iudged errour which is not errour and contrarie wise Here therefore the Scripture iudgeth So Christe was Iudged a transgressour of the lawe but if ye conferre him with the Scripture you shall see he agreeth best therewith On the contrary the traditions of the Phariseys seemed good which not withstaÌding Christ conferring with the Scripture plainly sheweth they are contrarie to the Scripture And therefore Dauid in all that octonarie desireth nothing els but to be directed by the worde of God. And the same Ferus in the eleuenth chap. of Matthew Baculus arundââ¦neus est quicquid extra verbum des traditur c. VVhat soeuer is giuen without the worde of God is a rodde of a reede For it is al onely the worde of God which we may safely leane vppon in so much that from hence thou mayst see what frowarde deceyuers they be that for the worde of God would onely set foorth vnto vs their dreames that is a rodde of a reede Hereuppon the true Apostles gloried most of all on this that they deliuered nothing but the woord of God so saith Peter Not following vnlearned ââ¦bles we make knowne to you the powre and presence of our Lord Iesus Christe so Paule doth glory that he receyued not the Gospell of men but by the reuelation of Iesus Christe Whereon he inferreth if therefore any preache any other thing let him be accursed As though he shoulde say ⪠we haue preached the woorde of God whereto ye may safely leane ⪠accursed therefore be he that for the certayne worde of God bringeth a rodde of a reede that is to say mannes feigninges Thus hitherto agrée euen these Papists with the auncient Fathers that nothing may be decided to be true or false neither by Church Councell Pope or any Man nor any Angell with out the authoritie of Gods worde so to iudge and confirme the same But say you by this rule it
to go vp to Ierusalem and there to be tryed in the assemblie of the highe Priestes So Athanasius abandoned the councels at Lyre Smirna and Ephesus ⪠So Maximus abandoned the Councell at Antioche So Pauiinus abandoned the Councel at Milayne So Chrisostome abandoned the Councell at Constantinople And so we abandoned the Popes violent councels at Rome and Trident that we might say with Dauid Non consedâ⦠iâ⦠consilio ãâã cum ãâã ãâã non introââ¦bo odi ecclesiââ¦m maligââ¦atium cum impijs non ââ¦edebo I haue not sitten in the counsell of vanitie I will not enter in with wicked doers I haue hated the Churche of the malignant and I will not sitte with the wicked These Councels we haue abandoned M. Stay. but no generall Councels wherein all things are tryed to be truthe or heresies by the touche of the worde of God and not by the Popes the councels or any creatures dââ¦cree besides Omnis homo mendax euery man is a lyer and the worde of God is onely the truthe of doctrine And therefore in all Councels we must crie with the Prophet Adlââ¦gem ad testimonium Let them rââ¦nne to the lawe of God to the testimonie of his worde quod si ââ¦on dââ¦xerint iââ¦xta verbum hoc non erââ¦t eis ââ¦x ãâã If the Councell declare any thing to be heresie not according to the worde of God the morning light the ãâã of righteousnesse shall not shine on them but they shall erre in the shadowe of death But sayth Ambrose ãâã ãâã ãâã vs eââ¦rare non possis followe the ââ¦pture that thou mayest not erre And if the Councell do not follow them we are made free from following yea licenââ¦ed to abandon and accurse those Councels by your owne Canons Sâ⦠quis prohââ¦t vobâ⦠quod a Domino ãâã est rursââ¦s imperââ¦t fieri quod Dominus prohibet exeââ¦rabilis sit ab omnibus qui dilââ¦nt Deum If any body forbid you that that is commanded of the Lorde and agayne commaunde that thing to be done that the Lorde hath forbidden lââ¦t him be accursed of all that loue the Lorde And your Abbote Panormitane willeth vs so to estéeme of your Councels without the scripture that plus credendum vel simpliâ⦠lââ¦co ãâã ãâã qâ⦠toti simul conâ⦠we muste more beleeue euen a simple lay man alleaging the scripture than all the whole Councell togither And your famous doctor Iohn Gersoâ⦠Chauncelour of the vniuersitie of Paris sayth Prima veritââ¦s ãâã stat c. this truthe standeth first to weete that any simple man beeing not authorized may be so excellently learned in holy writ that we muste more beleeue his assertion in a case of doctrine than the Popes declaration bicause it is euident that we must more beleeue the Gospell than the Pope Neither sayth he thus for the Pope alone but euen for your Councels yea for generall Councels in sacris c. VVe must more beleeue an excellent learned man in the scriptures and alleaging the catholike authoritie than we muste beleeue euen a generall Councell Thus by your owne doctors yea by the Pope him selfe that sayth no proofe oughte to be admitted agaynst the Scripture we may and muste abandon your Councels wherein many things besides and many thinges expressely agaynst the Scripture are determined for truthe and the expresse truthe of the scripture is condemned for heresie And therefore where ye say we renounce them onely for this cause bicause they grounde not them selues on the authoritie of the Scriptures ye shewe a good cause to cleare vs of all heresies and errors and shewe sufficient cause withall why we admitte not your Councels nowe your obstinate frowarde heresies to be suche that ye can not aââ¦ouche for them nor defende them by the holy Scriptures The authoritie whereof if those your Councels doe adââ¦itte as did the olde generall Councels then the clause in the Act of ParliameÌt doth no more abandon your Councels than it reiecteth those foure firste or any other that grounde their proues thereon But ye haue some better reason belike why ye set vp this fourth markâ⦠of abandoning the Pope and his councels to be exemplified in the olde Testament Partly and most of all say you I say it for an other clause in the Acte of Parliament enacting that no foreigne prince spirituall or temporall shall haue any authoritie or superioritie in this realme in any spirituall cause Either your fingers itche master Stapl. at this clause wherwith ye be pidling so often before ye come to the proper place where this is handled more at large Or else ye do vse the figure of anticipation so mutch and so impertinently to puffe vp your counterblast withall But were it the chiefest cause why ye set vp this marke bicause we reiecte all foraigne authoritie then hath the Bishop hit this marke also at the full euen in all these examples Excepte you can on the other side proue that these godly Princes admitted in their dominions the authoritie of any foraigne Prelate ouer them Of which till you shal be able to bring profe the commaunding and directing of their owne priestes as is sayde before yea euen of the highest Priest of all is argument sufficient to inferre that they admitted not any other straunge Priest ouer them all straunge Priests then béeing heathen Idolaters and therefore this clause of foraigne prelates is also by the Bishop out of the olde Testament fully proued But say you The Popes authoritie ecclesiasticall is no more foraigne to this Realme than the Catholike faythe is foraygne You say so M. Stapl. I will beare ye witnesse but ye shoulde proue it and not say so onely Neuerthelesse be it not foraigne then is he not excluded by that clause nor ye néede so storme thereat that it should be the cause moste of all why ye haue sayde all this and nowe ye lyke it vvell inough saying And yet mighte the Pope reforme vs well inough for any thing before rehearsed Why rehearsed ye this clause then and found most fault therwith since those words hinder nothing his clayme Sauing that say you he is by expresse words of the statute otherwise excluded How chaunce your quarell then M. Stap. is not at that exclusion But wilily ye sawe well inough that he is exempted euen in that he is a foraigne powre And had his name not bene exempted yet the clause that before tââ¦kled ye so muche though now ye would make so light thereat did fully exclude your Pope bicause he is a foraygne power Or elsefull fondly ye quarell moste at that wherat ye had no cause Yes say you there is a cause why I mislike this clause agaynst foraigne authoritie For then I pray you if any generall Councel be made to reforme our misbeleefe if we wil not receiue it who shall force vs And so ye see we be at libertie to receiue
and profitable to the soule yet vvill he not that any should be constrayned Thus sayth Alfonsus of Aerius opinion for fasting and not as you say master Stapleton that he made no dyfference betvveene him that fasted and that fasted not Whereas Aerius made a great difference and Alfonsus cleareth him of that you accuse him But howsoeuer Alfonsus in the other poynt wherin you let him go frée accuseth Aerius by S. Augustines testimonie if he altogither contemned all maner of fasting ordeyned by the Churche then are we cleared from béeing charged with him for we refuse onely the superstitious necessitis of the Popishe Churches lawes As for the true Churche of Christe if vpon any occasion some lawes of fasting should be made by hir toll vs where we haue sayd we would contemne them Yea it is apparant we yéelde obediently to those lawes of fasting ordeyned by the Quéenes Maiestie and hir realme the Churche of Englande whiche be not superstitious fastes nor binding the minde of the faster with any necessitie of conscience but made for the necessitie and policie of the Realme and state of our countrey And if the whole Church of Christ ordeine like lawes for fasting we shewe hereby how little we would with Aerius despise the same but we with the word of God and with the true Church of Christ in the Apostles times in the Primatiue age and in the auncient fathers dayes reiect all suche superstitions in fastes as the Popishe lawes and customes ââ¦o burden the Churche withall And thus dothe euen S. Augustine that noteth Aerius writing to Casulanus agaynst one Urbicus in Rome who would haue it obserued for a lawe and made a foolish booke theron that men should fast on Saterday and other dayes saying that Peter did so whom he calleth as the papistes do the head of the Apostles the porter of heauen and the foundation of the Church when he conuicted Simon Magus S Augustine improueth this tale by Peters concorde with all his fellow Disciples that vsed no suche faste And after long prouing and improuing he concludeth thus Si autem quontam huic quantum potus c. But bicause I thinke I haue answered this as sufficiently as I could if ye aske my sentence hereon I reuoluing it in my minde do see that in the Euangelicall and Apostolicall writings and in the whole instrument that is called the new Testament fasting is coÌmaunded But on what dayes we shoulde not fast and on what dayes we should fast I finde it not defined by the commaundement of the Lorde or of the Apostles And by this I deeme that fasting agreeth fitter not in deede to obtayne righteousnesse which fayth obteineth wherein is the beautie inwarde of the kings daughter c. Howbeit in this fast or dinner on the Saterday nothing seemeth to me heerein to be kepte more safely and quietly than that he which eateth dispise not him that eateth not nor he which eateth not dispise not him which eateth For neither if we eate we shall abounde neither shall we want if we do not eate That is to say while we keepe companie with those among whome we liue and with whome we liue to God without offence taking in these things For as for that the Apostle saythe is true it is ill for the man that eateth through offence so is it ill for the man that by offence doth fast c. Thus farre saint Augustine agaynst the precise appointing of fast on the Saterday in whose time it was frée for euery Church to vse hir owne custome Yea as he concludeth with aunswere of Ambrose hereon VVhen I am at Millaine I fast not on the Saterday when I am at Rome I fast on the Saterday And to what Church ye come keepe the order thereof if ye will neither giue nor take offence Thus we sée first how the fastes of the Church of Rome were no such lawe to all other Churches to receyue from hir their order or dayes of fasting or else they had bene Aerians for then had both S. Augustine Ambrose to béene Aerians by master Stapletons rule and by the Popes obtrusion of his Churches fastes to all other Churches nowe But the Church of Millayne euen vnder his nose besydes those of Affrick were at that time of contrarie orders Secondly as it was of Saterdayes fast so was it also for Fridayes fast or any other daies or day as appeareth by Saint Augustines generall rule in appealing to the Scripture and there finding no day at all appoynted As he sayth afterward againe Sed quoniam noÌ inââ¦enimus c. But bicause we finde not as I haue rehearsed aboue in the Euangelicall and Apostolicall writings which properly perteyne to the reuealing of the newe Testament that on any certaine dayes it is euidently commaunded we should keepe fastes c. Thirdly that what dayes soeuer they did kéepe fast they did it not as any meritorious act to obteyne righteousnesse thereby For this was the difference that the Papists put betwene him that fasted and that fasted not which is a thousand partes worse heresie than was that of Aerius I aske none other witnesse herein than euen one of your owne side Frier Ferus who inueying agaynst the Phariseys for ascribing righteousnesse to their sacrifices and ceremonies But wee sayth he do all things preposterously placing righteousnesse in these things which of themselues are neither good nor bad neglecting those things wherein true righteousnesse consisteth But one errour draweth on another For from hence followeth first that we make to our selues a greater conscience of the transgression of the Churches or Monkishe decrees than of the transgression of the diuine precepts Secondly hereon it commeth that we easily iudge other that obserue not the same as here did the disciples of Iohn VVhen Paule notwithstanding teacheth let no man iudge you in meate or in drinke or by reason of a feast day c. Item he that eateth not let him not iudge him that eateth c. To conclude it is farre an other thing to doe the worke than to put a trust in the worke It is good to fast and to keepe the Churches decrees but to put a trust in them is not only not good but wicked For this cause therfore Christ required not fasting other bodily obseruations he exacted not of those that are his or prescribed ought at all of these things not that he iudged such things of theÌselues to be euill or vnlawfull but that they should not ââ¦all thither againe that is to were to a trust of workes from whiche he woulde haue them most farre The which surely had chauÌced if he had exacted any such thing of those that are his as nowe we perceyne is committed in the Churches constitutions For euen as sone as euer these coÌstitutions began to be giuen men began also therwith to trust in them And so by little little we haue
at that time about the dead yea euen those sayth Epiphanius Qui primas sibâ⦠ferre videntur c. That among certaine exercisers of godlinesse in Egipt seemed to beare the chiefest sway and also of those in Thebaida and other Regions that denied the resurrection of the bodie Et Graeci quidam c. And certaine Grecians there were that vtterly denied the resurrection On the other part there were some that grauÌted it but with very fond and straunge opinions that partly they had receiued of the heathen Philosophers partly they had deuised of theÌ selues For this hath bene alwayes one of the deuils chiefe practises to abuse and deceyue the liuing by the dead And from hence as S. Ambrose and S. August affirme by worshipping the pictures of the deade sprang all Idolatrie and therefore the Deuill stryued so muche for the bodie of Moses as diuerse learned fathers note thereon And of all errours the most auncient are those that haue sprong about the deade As with the Saduces among the Iewes before Christes comming by other among the Corinthians in S. Paules time baptising ouer the deade and these aboue sayd Heresies in the east Church As likewise in the west by thrusting the communion bread into the mouthes of the dead by conceyuing opinions of their estate such as they had learned out of Plato and Uirgill of their paynes and torments of their ease deliuerance whom they loued and wished well vnto of whom sayth Saint August Humana quadam beneuolentia mihi falli videntur and as euen Epiphanius sayth Quum vero tales à via vera discesserint veritatem dei ad fabulas conuerterint VVhen such men swarued from the true way and conuerted the truth of God into fables Such as Origens conceytes and allegoryes were such as the morals of Oregorie are full of suche as the Heretikes fathered of the Apostles names Saint Peters Gospell Saint Thomas Gospell Nichodemus Gospell c. Then no marueyle if not onely the Heretikes had ill opinions of thedeade but also some of the godly and learned fathers in this behalfe were eyther somewhat deceyued ouercuriously searching and affirming that they knewe not or caryed to muche away with the sway of the peoples abuses Yea and by his leaue though he were an excellent and godly wryter yet in this poynte Epiphanius somewhat ouershotte himselfe Althoughe I speake it not to accuse him nor to excuse Aerius for no doubt as Aerius was an open Artian that denyed the diuinitie of oure Sauiour Christe so conertly he shotte herein agaynst the resurrection with the foresayde Heretykes as appeareth by Epiphanius his confutation of him Who not onely confuteth him but also sheweth why at that time they vsed suche an order for the deade whiche in the latter ende of the Booke shewing the diuerse rytes of the Christians in his Countrey then he expoundeth what it was In his autem qui vita defuncti sunt ex nomine memorias faciunt orationes ad deum perficientes ac cultus diuinos mysteriorum dispensationes But as concerning those which are deade they make memorials by name while they make their prayers to God and diuine worship and dispensing of the mysteries That is in their publike prayers of the diuine seruice and receyuing the Sacrament of the Lords Supper they made a thankefull memoriall of suche as were departed in the fayth of Christ giuing God prayse and thankes for them to confirme the fayth of the lyuing in the hope of the deades resurrection Now that they ment not by these doings any such deliuerance out of paynes of Purgatorie or any such other thing as the Papistes dreame of and woulde deceyue the people withall Epiphanius himselfe doeth plainely declare not to muche regarding what the Heretyke did pretende as what hée mente to destroy the hope of the Resurrection and béeing an Artian to abase the prefection of Christe Postea verò sayeth hée de co quòd proferantur nomina defunctorum c. But afterwarde concerning that the names of those that are departed this life aââ¦e brought foorth what can be more profitable than this what more commodious than this and what more worthie admiration that these that are present beleue that they which are departed do liue and are not none but they are and are liuing with the Lorde Whereby it appeareth that those prayers were principally to confirme the hope of the immortalitie of the soule and the bodies resurrection and rather confute the Heresie of Pope Iohn 22. than confirme any Popish Masse or Dirige for the deade Notwithstanding for that that followeth Epiphanius is not altogither excusable though to be borne withall more than you beare with him for rending the picture of Christ and not suffering so much as an Image on painted cloth no not of Christ himselfe to stande in the Church although it serued but for the vse of a vayle What would he haue done trow you if he had come into one of your Churches all to be dashed with Images not onely painted on cloathes but carued in wood and stone no doubt he would haue broken them all to fitters and haue cryed out on your open Idolatrie And so had he seene what horrible errours and superstitions your Church mainteyneth about the dead and that his wordes should after haue giuen occasion to pretende in his name a defence of suche superstition vndoubtedly hee woulde haue tolde you to your faces that you wrested his wordes and abused him and were farre worse your selues than euer Aerius was and woulde as did Saint August haue reuoked such wordes as whereby ye shoulde haue picked any such occasion But he foresawe not this as he saw the other But rather as ye say afterwarde of Nicephorus was caried away in the sway of the common errour and so defended that which ye nowe pretende to boulster your errours by As for any authoritie for this vsage such as it was Epiphanius alleageth none at al out of the word of God yea and that was more fonde in the doing he sayth they prayed for the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles and Euangelistes Wherin ye will graunt I am sure M. St. both your selfe and your Church doth swarue from him And your owne Popes Decrée sayth Iniuriam facit martyri qui orat pro martyre he doth iniurie to a martyr that prayeth for a martyr The reason he is in blisse already But wherefore saith he made they this prayer for the sainctes already in heauen for soothe to separate Christ from the order of men by the honor they gaue him that he excelled all creatures were they neuer so holy Which though it be most true and withall confuteth your adoration of Saincts departed yet their reason héerein was very fonde that therefore they should pray for them that were already in perfect blisse and glory And as fond was it to pray for those that died in their sinnes agaynst
also in another place the Lorde sayth this day shal they take thysoule from thee The soule therfore when it is once gone from the body can not wander heere amongest vs. And the Scripture saith also of the Pattiarche he was put to his father and died in a good age But that also neither the soules of the sinners can abide here thou maist harken what the riche man saith and marke what he craueth and can not get it if the soules of men might be coÌuersant here he would haue come him selfe as he desired and haue warned his kinsmen of Hell torments Out of which place it appeareth also plainly that the soules after their departure from the bodie are carried away to a certaine place from whence at their will they can not get but do there abide expecting that terrible day of iudgement These wordes of Chrysostome well weighed inferre fower things First that there be no moe estates of the dead than twoo the iust and the wicked and so there are none to be purged after-death Secondly that there be be but two places also Heauen and Hell so the purging place called purgatory is excluded Thirdly that the soules once departed from their bodies come forthwith to one of these two places and there tary continually till the day of dome without wandring here on the earth and so purgatorie is againe excluded Fourthly that all appearings of any that say they are the sââ¦ules of such and such c. are the Diuels fraudes old wines fables fooles tales childrens toyes and so againe not onely the opinion of purgatorie is improued but also al the Popish reuelatioÌs thereof proued to haue bene the Diuels illusioÌs But of this more hereafter I note it now only to shew that this errour though nothing like to that it hath since was so cropeÌ into the Church then that Chrysostome was faine thus sharply to coÌfute it S. Augustine also rebuketh other errours cropen in by custome about the dead Nouââ¦ââ¦ultos esse c. I know saith he that there are many worshippers of sepulchers and of pictures I know there are many which most riottously drinke ouer the dead and making banquets to the corses burie them selues vppon the buried and these their gluttonnies and dronkennesse they accoumpt for Religion These and such like wicked customes and errours about the dead gréeued S. Augustine wherefore he deuised with the godly Bishop Aurelius how he might remoue them Though therefore Epiphanius allowed the praying for the dead and other ceremonies there aboutes that euen the popish Church doth not vse and pretende custome for him neuer so muche yet none of these fathers are of his iudgement herein Nor his argument from custome beyond the worde of God bindeth vs but that rather we may follow S. Augustins rule Magis veritatem quà m consuetudinem sequi debemus VVe ought rather to follow the truth than the custome Yea although al these Doctours had bene contrarie hereto the Scripture being so plaine therein Epiphanius argument therefore is very meane to force any Heresie of denying this erroneouse custome And yet is not Aerius excused bicause he withall couertly as appeareth by Epiphanius proues denied the Resurrection els had their bene no furder meaning in those wordes than that Prayer or Sacrifice was fruitlesse for the dead it had bene so litle any Heresie that Epiphanius was rather in an errour thereof by yelding to corrupted custome as I haue proued by the Fathers to whose tradition he appealeth and by S. Augustine that also noteth this thing in Aerius Howbeit I speake it not to deface the worthie commendation of Epiphanius but I do as you do when ye talke with him for Images Although I might note in him furder not only his too bitter coÌtention with Chrysostome but also that he is not all sounde for doctrine no not in euery point of the Trinitie not that I lay it to him as any Heresie but as an errour no marueyle then though he were deceyued herein and you also M. Stapleton that ground on him to slaunder vs with Aerius heresie which was against the resurrection and that the dead Sunt nulli are none and are resolued to nothing I haue bene the longer in answering you to Aerius bicause ye vrge it so much and triumphe in so vaine and false a matter Your next obiection is about virginitie How say you to louinian that denied virginitie to haue any excellencie aboue Matrimonie or any speciall rewarde at Gods handes Or euer I say any thing to Iouinian I answere to you M. Stapleton If you should receyue such rewarde at Gods handes as your slaunderouse and lying toung deserueth I thinke your virginitie presupposing that ye were so good a virgin Priest as ye pretende although I will not sweare for you would at that great daie of rewarde stande ye in litle stéede Your selfe know well inough that although we attribute to the honorable state of Mariage that reuerence and libertie among all men that Christ and his Apostle S. Paule biddeth yet do we not deface or dispise but esteeme honorable also the excellent gift of continencie Yea confesse with the Apostle that in him that hath the gift thereof it is in those respects that the Apostle mentioneth more excellent than Matrimonie Bicause such are more frée to tranaile in the preaching and ministerie of Gods worde with lesse trouble care and charge chiefly in time of persecution But not for any excellencie of virginitie it selfe as an holier vertue deseruing heauen which you call a speciall reward at Gods hands meaning thereby a merite or deserte of a greater glory in heauen than Matrimonie This fonde presumption of merites we disalowe and would haue ye say with Gregorie your Pope Let them know that virginitie so excelleth mariage that the vnmaried extoll not theÌselues aboue those that be maried You your popish Priests do not thus but in that ye be vnmaried ye preferre your selues aboue the maried craking of excelleÌcââ¦e and special reward aboue others as did the boasting Pharisée And God wote are so far froÌ that virginitie which ye crake of that not onely ye burne within with most filthie lustes of your pampred bodies and vnmortified fleshe and so by reason of the scruple of your vowe haue your consciences marked with an whote Iron and yet virginitie as your selues to your owne greater condemnation without your greater repentance testifie is quite loste being polluted in the assent of the minde But what speake I of the minde which I would commit to God to iudge vppon sauing that all the world crieth out of your fornications adulteries incestes sodomitrie the crie whereof is ascended vnto heauen Your owne bookes swarme in exclaiming it and almost euery Cronicler noteth it But what néede notes of Chronicles when your licences and dispensations for your Priestes concubines your open mainteyning of courtezanes stewes and harlotrie are so apparaÌt that
was giuen not to a fewe being yet but ââ¦elie Christians of putting confidence rather in Sainctes bones than in the liuing God which ought not to haue bene done And thus do your own Pope Councels and writers condemne your selues for the horrible abuses of these your blessed Reliques and therefore we may worthely reiect them To your Lightes I answere true it is the Churche in the time of S. Hierome loÌg before vsed Lights But as he witnesseth himself they vsed theÌ for their necessitie in their Morning and Euening prayers which first sprang of this that the Churche in time of persecution assembled as they might closely in caues in cellars and other priuy places comming togither very early in the morning and very late in the euening yea in the dead of the night to inuocate God to heare his worde and participate the Lords supper so that lights were necessarie for them After the time of persecution kéeping still those howres of prayer they likewise serued for their vse till by litle litle as other things they also began eueÌ about S. Hieromes time to be abused And not long after about Gregories time to be kept light euen in the broade day and to be set in goldeÌ candlestickes which the former fathers counted and called heathen customes For the Heathen vsed lampes burning day night and tapers before their Idols on their aulters besides their torche lights euen as the Papists vsed But you wil say not they onely vsed lights but God also ordeyned lightes to be vsed in the Temple Indéede if ye could proue vs to be bounde to the ceremonies of the olde lawe or that Christ had renewed them and not rather abrogated them nor ordayned any other like them in their places then should ye say something to the matter But what néede ye labour to reduce the lawe since ye are not ashamed to confesse it came from the Heathen vsage Polygrane confesseth and braggeth of it that all your candles on Candlemasse day came from the wicked and old superstition of the Ethnikes Tradunt enim hystoriographi c. For the historiographers tell that the heathen Romaines had a custome that alwaies at the fift yeare in the moneth of February they kept the feast of going about the clensing with torches and lightes in the honour of Februa the mother of Mars whom they tooke for the God of battayle And also in the same moneth the Romaine women with the like worship of candels kept the memorie of Proserpina whome being rauished of Pluto the God of hell they feigne that hir mother Ceres sought hir eueÌ to mount Aetna VVhich superstition was first of the Grecians bicause of a most grieuous pestilence in the yeare of health 551. turned into the foresayde worship of solemnitie But afterwarde of Sergius Byshop of Rome who first chaunged his name for the deformitie thereof being called Os Porci Swines face or Hogges snout it was turned into a common religion as also the feast of all the Gods was dedicate to all Saints VVhich was about the yeare of the Lorde 694 ⪠that the Christian people should make memorials not so much of Februa and Proserpine as of Christ and Marie Iacobus de Uoragine agréeth somwhat herewith though herein he agrée little to himself and least of all to the truth besides his impudent Idolatrie to the Uirgine Marie quite forgetting Christ and ascribing all the honour of your candels vnto hir First he sayth it came vp herevppon Quod Simeon lumen Christum vocauit ideo consuetudo inoleuit in Ecclesia vt hodie lumina deferamus Bicause Simeon called Christ a light therefore grewe the custome of the Church that on this day we carie lightes For euen as this day Marie Ioseph Simeon and Anna did after the order of Procession carie a light in the Church so do we after the order of Procession carie Candles light vnto the Church As this is a most euident and grosse lie for neyther then nor long after they knewe what Procession mââ¦nt nor caried any light in the Temple which had bene quite beyond Gods commaundement nor any such doing is in the scripture but onely that this blinde authour followed to much the pictures in the Primer or the Masse booke that painte out the midwife or Ioseph holding a Taper so it neyther agréeth with the other common opinion nor yet with himselfe For euen immediately after But we must note saith he that there is a triple reason of this obseruance aud custome the one a literall the other a spirituall the thirde a morall The literall reason iâ⦠this for bicause the Romaynes in the olde time did celebrate three feastes with lightes the First in the honour of Proserpina the Seconde in the honour of Februa the Third in the honor of all the Court of hell ⪠c. to appease them and induce them to mercie that they would more mildely punishe the soules of their friendes departed But bicause it is a hard matter to forsake things accustomed the Romaynes after they receyued the sayth of Christ did yet also kepe these feasts of lightes in Februarie Pope Gregorie therefore did chaunge this feast into the honour of the mother of light That in hir honour we should beare lightes that bare vnto vs the true light Nor that now it shoulde bee made to Februa the mother of the God of battell but to the honour of the mother of the GOD of peace That it should not nowe be to the honour of the court of Deuils but to the honour of the Queene of all Angels and worthily was this translation made The Romaynes did therefore honour Proserpina that so she might obtaine grace of hir husbande They honored Februa to obtain victorie of hir sonne They honored the Deuils that punished the soules to encline them to mercie But these three things we receyue of the mother of God that is to wit grace mercie and victorie And therefore the Church singeth Marie mother of grace mother of mercie For shee gyueth grace to the lyuing and therefore is called the mother of grace And to the deade obteyneth mercie and therefore it followeth mother of mercie And to the vniuersall Church shee obteyneth victorie of their enimyes and therefore it followeth defende thou vs from the enimie c. Thus sayeth Iacobus de Uoragine of the originall of your feast of lightes That it was but a chaungeling of the Infidels hatched of your Pope on this grounde that it was harde to forsake an olde Heathen custome But thinking to chaunge these lightes to the better haue yée not blasphemed God euen by his Saints as yll or worse than they did by theyr Idols Your Legende disagréeth from thys latter deuise of Proserpina c. And sayeth This feast is called Candlemasse and is made in remembraunce of the offering that oure Ladie offered in the Temple as sayde is And eueryeche beareth this day a Candle of VVaxe
Deuill and all it coulde that such mysteryes suche vertue such confidence suche seruice of God such forgiuenesse of sinnes consisted in burning a Candle in setting vp a Lampe in offering a Taper in mainteyning a light before an Image or bearing it in Procession Do ye not say in your hallowing of them at Masse Benedic Domine Iesu Christe hanc creaturam c. Blesse Lord Iesu Christ this creature of wax Candle at our supplication and powre into it an heauenly blessing by the vertue of the holy Crosse that thou which hast giuen it to mans vse to repell darkenesse it may receyue by the signe of thy holy Crosse suche strength and blessing that in whatsoeuer places being lighted it bee put the Deuill may depart thence and tremble and flie awaye pale with all his ministers oute of those houses nor presume to disquiet them any more Againe in the next prayer Ut has Candelaâ⦠c. That these Candles prepared to the vse of men and to the health of their bodies their soules either on land or water by the inuocatioÌ of thy holy name by intercession of S. Mary alway virgin whose feasts are this day deuoutly celebrated c. And in the thirde praier that thou vouchsafe to blesse hallow and kindle them ⪠with the light of the heauenly blessing that we by offering them to our God may deserue to be kindled with the holy fyre of thy most swete brightnesse and to be presented in the holy temple of thy glorie All these vertues and many more ye ascribe to your Candles Neither do ye as here ye pretend offer them vp onely to God but to the Saints also chiefly to the Uirgin Marie which as it was so common that it cannot be denied so to coÌfirme the same your Legend telleth vs a tale of one that neuer did good déed in his life but that he offred a Taper to the virgin Mary And wheÌ he died he was of Christ coÌdemned the deuils had alreadie gotteÌ his soule Then came the virgin Mary put the Taper in his hande had him shift with the deuils so well as he could the soule hauing gotten the Taper stood therwith at his defence euer wheÌ the deuils came nere him he ââ¦oyned one in the face hit another here another there so lustily he laid about him that he droue with the Taper all the deuils away So notable a force ye ascribed to a Candle offred to the blessed virgin and made the simple people beleue what ye would by these outward CaÌdles in the darke night mist of error hauing put out and hidden vnder a bushel the true holy Candle the light of our féete lanterne to our steps the blessed worde of God that shoulde haue shewed Christ vnto vs the verye light of the world that came to giue light to those that sit in darknesse in the shadow of death Which spirituall light of Christ and the glorious beames of his Gospell the dimme eies of your soule cannot abide to looke vpoÌ Qui male agit odit luceÌ c. He that doth yll saith Christ our true light hateth the light coÌmeth not to the light least his works shuld be reproued Syth therfore euen as the Owle flieth the light you slie the word of god all these other lights are but mere vnfruitfull workes of darknesse lulling the people a sleepe with these your dreaming fables Yet these fables were let forth in the mother tong that euery man might vnderstaÌd them but in no case the true caÌdle might shine vnto them In stéed whereof ye set vp a Candle before the deuil For the godly christians are not taught by Christ his Apostles nor the learned auncient fathers to set vp any suche Candles before Christ which Lactantius calleth plaine madnesse Candles in the Church so well as in other places we allowe and vse as did Saint Hierome And therfore where ye obiect Uigilantius to vs we returne euen Hieromes wordes to you Cereos autem in clara a luce c. But we light not waxe Candles at broade day light as thou slaunderest vs in vaine but with this comfort to mitigate the nightes darkenesse to keepe vs awake at the light least we should sleepe in darkenesse beeing blinde with thee And thus Saint Hierome maketh euen you master Stapleton and your Church that haue them in the cleare day light and that to such blind and Idolatrous endes both Uigilantians and Dormantians to Nowe to Ceremonies I answere that such as be decent laudable and to edifying and may set forth Gods glorie we refuse them not We reiect I graunt and that in good considerations the rable of such heathen and Iewish ceremonies that you laded the spouse of Christ withall We are frée from the yoke of the lawe much lesse néede we tye vs to the bondage of Paganisme And froÌ one of these the most of your ceremonies were deriued Saint Augustine complayned in his time and he liued euen in the time of Uigilantius That they oppressed the Church which God had set free with such slauish burdens that the state of the Iewes was more tollerable who though they knewe not the time of their libertie yet were they but vnder the burthens of the lawe aud not vnder the presumptions of men Thus speaketh Saint Augustine of Ceremonies euen where he mitigateth the matter and beareth with them so much as he coulde But what woulde he haue thought and sayde had he séene such an infinite number as haue crept in since his tune obtruded with such seueritie vrged with such necessitie estéemed with such opinion of holinesse as nothing more yea preferred before the knowledge and expresse commaundements of God beeing nothing but the traditions and inuentions of men If ye obiect Uigilantius to vs as an Heretike for improuing such ceremonies and the abuses of them why call ye not Christ M. St. a starke Heretike also for he obiected euen the same matter to the Scribes Pharisies High Priects that they worshipped God with the traditions of men and therefore saith ââ¦n vanum ââ¦olunt me They woorship me in vaine he charged them that they ouer burdened the people with such loade of Ceremonies whereas his yoke was light and easie and reproued them that for those their ceremonies they neglected and transgressed the commandements of god I warrant ye they said as you say by vs that he was a ranke Heretike and accursed and excommunicated him and all that helde with him And do you speake any better of his Ministers I meane not but euen of his worde it selfe in respect of your ceremonies than did they I omitte as now to tell how ye haue defaced his worde how many things ye preferre aboue it onely I will note this how sawcely in the defence of your ceremonies and your other errours contrary to the Scripture ye exalte your selues aboue Gods worde
Dominus Iesus reueââ¦auit cuidam deuoto poterit venire in breui ad amorem timorem perfectum coelestium By this meanes as the Lord Iesus reuealed to a certayne deuoute man he might in shorte tyme come to a perfecte loue and feare of heauenly things But in the meane time the people sticking in visible and earthly thinges fell without all feare or loue of Gods truthe euen to a perfection of Idolatrie Beléeuing too muche in such faygned reuelations and reiecting the word of God wherein Christ hath not to a certayne deuoute man but to all the worlde reuealed the expresse will of his heauenly father in playne words forbidding the worshippe of all Images yea of all creatures as heathen and wicked Idolatrie But ye still crye that your Images are not Idols as the heathens Images were and therefore your worshippe of them is not Idolatrie as was theirs I omitte the examining of thys sequele M. Stapl. And will onely as nowe denye the antecedent The which thoughe other more at large haue improued and I haue somewhat touched it before yet bicause at the very instant of the writing hereof there came to my hands a paper by a certen friend of youres whome I spare to name wherein was conteyned as he affirmed suche reasons as were vnanswerable to proue that your Images are nothing like the Heathen Idols Although perusing the same by Doctor Saunders foresayde booke of Images it séemeth to be drawen from his collections of the differences betwéene Idols and Images and so by some other already may be full answered yet I thought it not amisse euen héere to set it downe and sée by this whiche already is spoken howe easily or hardly it is to be answered vnto The differences betweene the Idols of the Gentiles and our Images sayth this Papistes paper First some kinde of Idols had no truthe at all in nature but were feigned monsters all our Images haue that essentiall truthe extant in the world which they represent I answere first for some of their Idols ye say truth Secondly for all your Images ye make a loude lye As for ensample the Image of S. Sunday pictured like a man with all kinde of ãâã about him as though he had bene Iohn of all craftes Wheras for the béeing of any suche man there was no suche essentiall truth at all extant in the worlde that it represented And yet for your Images this is a generall rule that you must most firmly beléeue Quod qualem imaginem vides ad extra oculo corporali ââ¦lem Christus habet similitudinem aed infra secundum esse diuinale Ideale That what maner of Image thou seest outwarde with thy corporal eye Christ hath the same similitude inwarde according to his diuine beeing and conceyued forme And the like he sayth of the Uirgin ââ¦deò habeatur Imago Mariae virginis pulchra quoniam turpis Imago teste Maximo non est vera Imago Mariae sed falsa Cum ipsa Maria sit totius pulchritudinis decoris amoris regina domina Let a fayre Image be had of the virgin Mary bicause a foule Image as Maximus witnesseth is not the true Image of Mary but a false Image sith Mary is the Queene and Lady of fayrenesse comlynesse and loue And M. Saunders concluding this poynt saythe For looke what proportion is betweene thing and thing the same proportion is betweene signe and signe of those things By which rule of leueling the Image according to the essential truth extant in the worlde of the partie represented by the Image as many other Saincts yea Christes and the blessed Uirgins maye be proued Idols being pictured amisse and swaruing from their truth represented so by no meanes can ye defende your consecrate cake your three faced picture of God the father your winged and feathered Aungels your pictures of Saint Sauiour and Saint Sunday from being manifest Idols And therefore betweene these some Images of yours and those some Idols of theirs there is no difference in this first point Secondly all their Idols were without truth concerning fayth and religion All our Images conteyne such a truth as belongeth to Christes fayth and religion I answere No Images belong to the truth of Christes fayth religion As for religion all the religion that Christ ordeyned was without Images Images in diuerse places are forbidden to be worshipped Custodiââ¦e vos à simulacââ¦ris Kepe your selues from Images And they are in no place bidden to be worshipped As for fayth Fides ex auditu auditus auteÌ per verbum dei Faith coÌmeth by hearing hearing by the worde of God. But the worship of Images is without the word of god yea as is alreadie shewed by your schoolemen it is but of the Churches ordinaÌce but no faith can be with out Gods worde the worship then of Images is without the truth of Christs faith religion so likewise in this 2. point they differ not from the worship of the heathen Idols Thirdly sacrifice was done to their Idols not so to oure Images but onely to God. I answere first in that ye made such sacrifice to God as God neuer ordeyned and made more dayly renuing of sacrifices to him not contented with the only sacrifice that he made once for all therein ye committed plaine Idolatrie and your massing sacrifice was the Idoll Secondly where ye say ye made sacrifice onely to God I haue proued alreadie in plaine confession of your selues that ye made sacrifice to the blessed virgin also Thirdly that ye say they made sacrifice to their Idols so do not you If sacrifice bée the worship of Latria then so doe you by your owne tales but what matter maketh this wheÌ ye sacrificed to them of whome the Images were the pictures and what differed that from the Heathens doing that sacrificed to Iupiter before the Image of Iupiter or honored him by sacrifice in his Image whiche thinges you did also and therefore without any difference héerein bothe theirs and your Images are Idols Fourthly their Images belonged many times to very wicked men our Images which we worship belong alwayes to blessed Saincts Not alwayes M. St. to blessed Saincts except ye iumble God his Saincts togither Yea some of those that ye worship for blessed Saincts are doubted of your selues to be daÌned spirites belike they were little better than wicked meÌ But how blessed saincts some of theÌ were whoÌ ye worshipped read eueÌ your own writer sir Thomas Mores works of Images pilgrimages ye shall sée little difference betwéene theirs yours except yours were the worsse euen in that simulata sanctitas est duplex iniquita Their counterfeit sainctship made them double hypocrites Fourthly some of the Gentils professed theÌselues to adore the vnsensible wood and stone we do not professe or teache any such thing but rather the contrarie I answere if some of the Gentiles did teach this among them
their charge than ye haue or possibly can do to M. Feckenham or any other Catholike whereof I dare make any indifferent reader Iudge True indéede M. Stapl. without supposall ye hââ¦ue an head as it were a counting house full of pregnant matter such as these your viâ⦠and crakes with other your common places of sclaunderouse raylingââ¦are wherein ye excell all your comâ⦠ãâã wherein for my parte I will not contende with you but onely sette it ãâã that as ye say euery indifferent reader whom you dare make your Iudge may beholde Iudge and coââ¦d your pregnancie therein And if ye haue any pregnant matter tâ⦠charge vs as ye vaunt it shall suffiâ⦠me aftââ¦r my hââ¦y manner not contending who hath more pregnant matter wherein ye graunt ye may be charged by vs in some pregnant matter to discharge our selues of the charge if we can and againe if we can also to returne the charge on your neckes or els let it stande for me indifferent to whome the readers indifferent iudgement shall awarde it whether you haue more pregnant matter to charge vs or we haue more and more true matters to recharge you and discharge our selues in this heresie of the Donatistes They were all ye say called first Donatistes but as they firstâ⦠fell from the Church Catholike so fell they afterwarde from their own Church and maister into an horrible diuision of the Maximianists Circumcellions Rogatists Circenses others A liuely paterne of the sectes sprong from your Apostle Luther as in their pedegree in the Apologie of Staphilus euery man may see Euery man may see M. St. that he is a good cocksââ¦re witnesse of your side and therefore it is pregnantly done of you to sende vs to him but sauing your reuerence M. Stapleton I haue heard say ere this that two false harlots neede no broker Your argument is vicious diuerse waies but chiefly it standeth of your common fallacion A non causa vt causa so doth the most of this your pregnant matter For els by the like argument yè might make another liuely paterne from Christes own wordes Necesse est vt Scandala veniant It is necessarie that offences come And Christ him selfe as Simeon saide of him is Positus multis in ruinaâ⦠Placed to many to their ruine And so he calleth him selfe a stombling stone and his ghospell as saith S. Paule is to the Iewes an offence and follie to the Gentiles What a number of Heresies sprang vp euen in the Apostles time through false Apostles of whom saith S. Ihon They went out from vs but of vs they were not Doth not S. Augustine describing the Church of Christ confesse Hââ¦reses ãâã de illa exiââ¦runt tanquam sarmenta inutilia de vitè precisa ipsa autem manet in radice sua All Heresies went out of the Church as vnprofitable boughs cut of from the vine but it selfe remayneth still in the roote thereof Ye should discerne betwene the sower of the wheate and the sower of the darnell M. St. and then your argument were aunswered Although it be also a sclanderous lie to Father those sectes on the gospell or from Luther that are rather deriued from Popish errours with which they more agrée as sprong out of suche superstitions and ignorance as you had noseled them withall But if ye will fetch in this point an argument from the ãâã how forgatte you the plentifull sectes of your false Friers all sprange first from Francis and Dominike but what swarmes full not of the Friers onely who as Chaââ¦er telleth came driuinge like bées out of Sathanas tayle but of the diuerse sectes of them that haue sprougâ⦠out since the one no more like the other then an Apple is like an Oyster and all agreing togither like cattâ⦠in a ââ¦tter Ye might haue tolde vs of Peter Lombarde of Thomas of Scotus c. And of the sectes sprong out of their loynes deuided so bitterly among them selues with great ãâã and ââ¦artakinges and that in no small pointeâ⦠of ãâã ãâã ye might haue made a fitter comparisââ¦n to the ãâã Suche pregnant ãâã aâ⦠your first charge is such is your second charge The Donatistes say you would sometime crake bragge of their multitude and bring it as an argument that the truth was on their side as doth your Apologie ⪠which being restrained by the Emperours lawes and dayly diminishing ⪠theÌ they cried the truth resteth with the few elected and chosen persons then cried they O little flocke feare not as ye did when ye were as yet but in corners rotten barnes and luskie lanes If these be good arguments M. Stapl ⪠to prââ¦ue a Donatist to crake and bragge of multitude to bring it as an argument that the truth is on their side then are all Papistes Donatistes and we ãâã For it is your crake almost your onely vauÌt of ãâã of greatest multitudes of people asking vs in coÌtempt where our Church was when for the most parte ye saide all is ââ¦urs as the Diuell saide when he looked in at the Câ⦠ãâã as telleth the olde by worde And if nowe it hath ãâã Goâ⦠by the preaching of his ââ¦lessed ⪠wordâ⦠ãâã he proââ¦ed after tâ⦠generall defection so to detect the man of sinne and to chaine vp SathaÌ that he should not so much dectine the world but that we may ãâã and eââ¦race the glad and true tidinges of our saluation we do not crake nor bragge thereof Reioyse in the Lord we may praysing God that he hath reuealed these things to the simple and to lifte vp our heads Christ biddeth vs when the haruest waxeth ripe and great praying him to sende more workemen into his haruest to reape the sheaneâ⦠with ioy the seede whereof we sowed before in teares This we may do be I trust no Donatists As for craking of multitudes it is proper to your Churche M. St. we make no argument to or fro thereon And if on the other parte in the time of persecution wheÌ iniquitie had the vpper hand we comforted our selues with this consolation of Christ Feare not O little flocke and the truth resteth with the feââ¦e eleââ¦ed and chosen persons If ye scoffe at these wordes and heââ¦vpon inferre vs to be Donatistes bicause they saide the same by this argument ye wil ââ¦oue the author of them Iesus Christ him self to be a Donatist to The wordes are godly true who soeuer vse theÌ Only ye should haue proued that we applied them falsely as the Donatistes did or elsye proue nothing Ye say we criââ¦d thus when we were as yet but in corners rotten barnes lusky lanes Were you neuer in corners rotten barnes luskie lanes M. Stapl I will not say for what purposes but God forgiue ye and I do but I thinke ye werenot there for Religion And though it seemeth by these your lusty crakes where ye are
nââ¦n at Louaine that ye would be thought no hedgeââ¦réeper ⪠nor ââ¦uedropper as sâ⦠of your broode are peaking here in lusââ¦y lanes and lurking in corners and yet they court theÌ selues no more Donatistes than you NotwithstaÌding it appeareth for all your crakes bragges ye haue not that stout courage fââ¦r your raââ¦se but that ye like Louaine better than M. ãâã ââ¦ging and had rather blow your ãâã ãâã like ãâã lââ¦ytorer in a lusky lane or hide your head ãâã the corner of an old ââ¦otten barne rather than warme your selfe with a ââ¦aggot aâ⦠a ââ¦ake in Smithfielde suche as was the crueltie of your Popish tyrannie to those that constantly abode the terrible brunt therof And although other giuing place to your furie either of their owne infirmitie or that God preserued them to a better oportunitie did then flée or hide them selues what dyd they héerein that Chryst gaue them not licence example and commaundement so to do Ye might aswell obiect this to those Saincts of God of whome S. Paule telleth that they wente about in the wildernesse of whome the worlde was vnworthy Why say ye not Elias lurked in lusky lanes when he sted the face of Iesabell Why say ye not that Athanasius crepte into corners when he hidde him selfe seueÌ yeres in a Cesterne an harder harborough than a rotten barne For shame M. Stap. learne to make a difference betwéene the perfecution and the cause of it or else this were an easie argument to make all Donatistes yea your selues also And would to God all corners rotten barnes and luskie lanes were wel ransacked some luskes I think would appeare in their likenesse whom ye would be loth should be founde out M. Stapleton Thirdly ye say The donatistes when they could not iustifie their owne doctrine nor disproue the Catholikes doctrine leauing the doctrine fell to rayling agaynst the vitious life of the Catholikes In this poynt who be Donatistes I referre me to Luthers and Caluines bookes especially to M. Iewell and to your owne Apologie Ye nââ¦ede not M. Stap. referre your selfe so farre referre your selfe to your selfe a Gods name yea go no further than this your Counterblast I warrant ye you blow such a blast héerein that ye maye well encounter master D. Harding master D. Saââ¦ders M. Dorman M. Marshall or any other of your writers thoughe they haue all godly giftes in this poynt yet this your Rhel horicall grace of rayling goeth so farre beyonde them all that they are scarse worthy to cary the wispe after you M. Stap. Onely at this I maruell that like the wiseman when he tolde how many were in the companie he neuer reckoned him selfe that you hauing so pregnant a vayne héerein do still forget your selfe But belike it is for this cause that as ye surmount all your companie so ye goe beyonde the Donatistes also who as ye saye rayled onely agaynst the vitious lyues But you where ye finde no vitious life to rayle agaynst the Protestantes fall to slaundering and reuiling euen their godly and vertuous liues Fourthly ye say The Donatistes refused the opeÌ knowne catholike Churche and sayde the Church remayned onely in those that were of their side in certaine corners of Afrike And sing not you the like song preferring your Geneua VVittenberge before the whole Churche beside The Donatistes as you say M. St. tied the Churche to Affrike and wrested the scripture for it forsaking the open knowne catholike Church in déede But you shoulde haue proued your popish Church to be that open knowne catholike Church now which they refused then If ye saye you proue that bicause they refused the church of Rome then your church is the church of Rome now if ye vnderstaÌd the church for the coÌgregation of the faythful ye vtter a double vntruth For they-refused not only the coÌgregation then at Rome but of al the world besides and agayne your church or congregation of Rome now is nothing the same or lyke the same in religion that it was then If ye meane by the church of Rome the Citie of Rome and the Popes chayre there then ye proue your selues to be Donatistes that tye the churche of Christ dispersed euery where to the seate of Rome as they did vnto Aphrike And if ye meane by the open knowne catholike Churche the multitude of people acknowledging your Popes sââ¦ate at Rome then agayne are ye Donatists by your second poynt in craking of multitude depending on Rome a corner in Italie as ye saye the Donatistes craked of their multitude depeÌding on their corners in Affrike As for vs we depende neither vpon Geneua nor VVittenberge nor tye the Church of Christ vnto them nor preferre them either before the whole catholike church or any parte thereof nor referre men vnto them for the triall of the Church or to any other place else but allow them and all and singuler other places where the worde of God is sincerely set fooââ¦th where Idolatrie errours superstition are abolished We ãâã to the mountaynes as Chrysostome expoundeth it Quâ⦠sunt Christiani conferant se ad scripturaâ⦠They that are ChristiaÌs let them get them to the scriptures And why not to Rome Ierusalem and suche other mountaynes but onely to the scriptures Bicause saith he since that heresie hath possessed the Churches there caÌ be no triall of true christianitie nor refuge of Christians that would trie out the truthe of fayth but the deuine scriptures Before it coulde haue bene knowne diuers wayes whiche was the Church which was Gentilitie But nowe there is none other wayes to know which is in deede the very church of Christ but all onely by the Scriptures If they therefore set foorthe the Scriptures we acknowledge them to be of the Church of christ Let Rome doe this and we will as gladly acknowledge Rome to be of the Churche of Chryst as either Wittenberge or Genââ¦ua ⪠Yea as S Hierome sayth which is also put in the Popes owne decrées Eugââ¦bium Constantinople Rhegium Alexandrie Thebes Guarmatia or any other place if it professe the truthe with Geneua and Wittenberge For on this consideration sayth S. Augustine the Churche is holy and catholike not bicause it dependeth on Rome or any other place nor of any multitude obedient to Rome bothe whiche are Donatisticall but quia recte credit in DeuÌ bicause it beleeueth rightly on God. This is our song M. Stap. of Geneua VVittenberge Affrica yea and of Rome too And if you can sing any better note I giue you good leaue for me onely I would wish you howsoeuer ye sing to leaue your flat lying tune in saying Fifthly say you The Donatistes corrupted the fathers bookes wonderfully and were so impudent in alleaging them that in their publique conference at Carthage they pressed muche vpon Optatus wordes and layde him foorth as an author making for theÌ who yet wrote expresly against them and in all
Generall assemblies at your Trident Councell as ye bragge vpon If ââ¦e meane for the frée libertie and order of it it was not onely Nationall of Italians in Italy as the Donatistes was of Aphricans in Aphrica but also more partiall violent and nothing but tongtyed bondage and compulsion farre worse than was the Donatistes Eightly say you The Donatistes sayde that all the world was in an Apostacie before the comming of their Apostle Donatus and is not Luther the same man to you that Donatus was to them We estéeme Luther as a notable organ of God to detect your falshoods and open his truth although we graunte he were not without his infirmities but what dothe that excuse your apostacie or argue him to be a Donatist Yea though he had sayd such words now as then Donatus falsly sayde Mââ¦ght not an vniuersall apostacie haue bene since or be nowe bicause there was none suche then and yet Luther charged not al the world but al your popish Church with this Apostacie And what dothe he therein that is not manifest what said he that the Apostle S. Paule foresayde not there should come a defection before the coÌming of christ what said he that eueÌ at your last Trident councel that ye craked on last the Frenche Legate did not openly say to your Prelates faces Verily we must euen of necessitie coÌfesse this quoth he whether it hath bene perchauÌce by mans infirmitie or by some negligeÌce of the Prelats of the church or else by their preposterous godlinesse if I should name no greeuouser thing that there hath crept into the Church very many things worthy to be abolished abrogated or restrayned Yea what saide he that euen your Pope hath not confessed VVe know saith Pope Adrian to the Princes of Germanie in his Cpistle wherin he chiefly inueigheth agaynst Luther that euen in this holy seate many abhominable things there haue bene already now certayne yeres abuses in spirituall matters excesses in coÌmaundements to conclude all things haue bene changed into peruersitie not it is maruell if the sicknes haue descended froÌ the head into the members from the chief byshops into the inferiour Prelates all we that is to say the eccl ⪠Prelates haue erred euery one in his owne wayes nor there hath bene any this long while the which dyd good no not one This general apostacie loe your owne Pope confesseth both for him selfe for his predecessors for al other Prelates and Priests vnder him and for al the Church besides And weye these words wel M. St. for they serue agaynst you in many matters touched before chiefly whether the Pope al his Prelates yea al the visible state of the Church may erre or no. But ye were best make this Pope a Donatist too To the author of the harboroughe ye are answered by other as I heare say And it is but your péeuishe quarell Ninthly say you The Donatists being charged and pressed to shew the beginning and continuance of their doctrine and the ordinarie succession of their Bishops were so encombred that they coulde neuer make any conuenient aunswere And are not you I pray you with your fellowes Protestant Bishops fast in the same myre If not aunswere then to my third demaunde in the fortresse annexed to Sainct Bede This is Satis proimperio More than inough for your authoritie Master Stapleton to commaunde our Bishops to aunswere your vaine demaundes and pelting bookes or else they must be Donatists But euen so played the Donatists with the godly Bishops then as you play now with ours Your humour is all on vaine glorie to set oute and vaunt your owne workes But it is a signe ye lacke good neighbours at Louaine For one of them not your selfe should haue commended to vs your Demaundes Fortresses and Translations But your selfe must be faine I sée to put vs in minde of them for your brethren séeke theyr owne glorie likewise in their writings And why then shoulde not you séeke yours as well as they But for my part as I haue not youre noble Fortresse so I thinke your Demaunde be not worthie the séeking for much lesse the aunswering I pray you pardon me if I thinke amisse for I measure it by many other Demaunds of this your Counterblast As for the beginning of our doctrine is alreadie shewed euen he that is the beginning the ending the Alpha and Omega he began our doctrine and hath euer continued and preserued it We say with Chrysostome as is before sayd Ad montes Let vs flee to the mountaines that is to the scripture we say with Saint Cyprian Ad fontein Let vs go to the fountaine that is to the Scripture we say with the Prophetes Ad legem testimentum To the lawe and testimonie that is to the Scripture we say with him that is the beginning himselfe venite ad ãâã come vnto me and we admit onely that Quod suit ab initio reiecting that doctrine of which we may say Non suit sic ab initio It was not so at the beginning this ye say the Donatistes being charged and pressed could not do but we shewe you here the very beginning of all our doctrine Now if a man should demaunde of you to shew the beginning of all your doctrines aske you as Christ teacheth vs to demaunde of you the originals is it of God or is it of men then are you for a great many of them bemyred fast with the Donatistes and can not tell how they came vp sauing that they crept in by custome and many retayned of the old superstitions of the Pagans little or nothing turquesed but none of them al came vp otherwise than by meÌ none were set foorth of God in his holy word And so againe ye are Donatists or worse than they and the worse in that as the French Kings Embassadour aforesaide tolde your Trident Fathers ye hold fast with tooth nayle all things that ye haue receiued of long custome But the old fathers tell you from whom ye father your customes We must not follow the customes of man but the truth of God. Yea your old Popes them selues Felix Gregory Nicholas Leo can tell you that all customes should giue place to the Scriptures for Christe said not he was custome but the way the truth and the life That we should not goe one Iote from the Apostles institutions That such ill customes are no lesse to be auoided than a pestilent infection which except it be taken out the soner the wicked will take holde of it as dutie of priuileges And that such transgressions and presumptions being not forthwith suppressed will be reuerenced for lawes and celebrated like priuileges for euer Here is the comming vp and beginning of the most of your doctrines and therefore what hable ye of your Bishops since your Bishops them selues say thus of your long customes beginning and continuance of them As for the
ordinary succession that ye crake of ye haue neyther succession of Bishops nor Bishops at all according to the beginning and the Apostles orders Which as it is now twice alreadie proued so is it easie to see by conference of the Apostles rules and principles of a Bishop with your Popishe Bishops orders quite contrarie thereunto Where therefore ye crake and bragge so often of succession although it be nothing in the person succéeding except it be in the doctrine succeeding also yet euen for the person ye neither can alleage any ordinarie succession but degenerate succession nor ye haue any certaintie of that beginning thereof that ye pretende no not of the Bishop of Romes beginning and succession from Peter whiche not onely examined by the infallible Scripture will so encomber you that ye can neuer make any conuenient answere therevnto but be fast in the same myre that ye say the Donatistes were Tenthly ye say The Donatistes finding fault with Constantine Theodosius and other Catholike princes ranne for succour to Iulianus the renegate and highly commended him and doth not M. Iewell I pray you take for his president against the Popes primacie Constantius the Arrian against Images Philippicus Leo Constantinus and such like detestable Heretikes by generall Councels condemned do not your selfe play the like parte in the Emperour Emanuel as ye call him and in other as we shall hereafter declare By this rule should Hosius Staphilus M. Harding M. Dorman and your selfe also be Donatistes that take argumentes from your aduersaries yea from Heathen men So might ye make S. Paule a Donatiste also Ye had néede therefore make your comparison more aduisedly And thus might ye haue fitte it very well The Donatistes finding faulte with Constantine Theodosius and other Catholike Princes ranne for succour to Iulianus the renegate and highly commended him And doth not M. Stapleton M. Harding and other popish Priestes finding fault with their most Christian and naturall soueraigne Ladie ââ¦unne ouer to Louaine and to Rome to a foraigne Apostaticall vsurper and highly commende him this had bene a fitter and truer proportioÌ M. St. of the twaine And what do you herein that your graunde Captaine the Pope him selfe did not Pope Boniface ran to the cruell and detestable tyrant Phocas that most trayterously had murdred his naturall Emperour and first obtayââ¦d of him this title of Primacie that neuer any godly or lawfull Prince did graunt before this traytour Phocas one vsurper to another vsurper a good beginning of so good a claime Againe did not Pope Gregorie the third stirre vp all Italie to rebell against the Emperour and he and after him Pope Zacharie ran froÌ their naturall Prince to the Princes of Fraunce Germanie and Italie highly commending them that mainteyned them selues against their soueraigne Lord and Emperour and after that bereued him of the Empire of Rome also did not Pope Stephan teach the nobles of Fraunce to forsake their liege King and to run to Pepin an vsuper whom you highly commende as one of your chiefest Patrones Did not Pope Leo the fourth run from the true and lawfull Emperour to his Tygerlike vnnaturall mother Irene the vsurper whom he highly commended for maintayning Images and do not you M. St. euen here for the same only cause runne vnto and highly commende hir hir Councell crying out of the lawfull Emperours calling them detestable and condemned Heretikes bicause they abolished the worship of Images but I reserue the examining of these Donatisticall doings and the trayterouse practises of your later Popes to your seuerall counterblastes thereon In the meane season by this it appereth who be more Donatistes we that alleage an example by writing of those Emperours were they as ill or worse than ye call them or your Popes that runne in déede froÌ their naturall Princes to detestable murderers and trayterous vsurpers Thuâ⦠had ye fitteâ⦠your coÌparison ye should liuely haue shewed who had bene the very Donatists the Protestants or the Papists Eleuenthly ye say Nowe who are I pray you Donatists for the defacing and ouerthrowing of aultars for villayning the Chrisme and the holy sacrament of the aultar whiche they cast vnto dogges whiche straight wayes by the ordinance of God fell vpon them and being therein Gods ministers made them feele the smart of their impietie It were a tragicall narrââ¦tion to open the great and incredible crueltie that the Donatists vsed towarde the Catholikes especially their horrible rauishment of religious Nunnes And yet were they nothing so outragious as your Hugenotes haue bene of late in Fraunce and the beggerly Guets in Flaunders namely about Tourney First here master Stapleton ye shewe your selfe a Donatist after your first note in corrupting the fathers wordes as though those holy Uirgins were suche Nunnes as your popish Church mainteyned Againe ye corrupt Optatus wordes in telling vs of the sacrament of the aultar as though there haââ¦ged in his time such a God in a Pire ouer the aultare or as though there were then any such altare to make the people conceyue by your tale telling a great antiquitie in your later vpstarted ââ¦olatrie and superstition And this ye do in seuerall letters as though they were the proper wordes of Optatâ⦠wherein ye shew your selfe a Donatist Secondly it is not alike to compare the rooting vp of Idolatrie and abolishing of naughtie superstitious customes which euen your Popes as I haue shewed before allow not to the naughtie doing of the Donatists for the outrages of souldiouâ⦠if any such were And put case there were any such as ãâã doubt to slaunder the Gospell ye aggrauate many lies will make a mountaine of a mole-hill yet me thinâ⦠ye shoulâ⦠remember that if crueltie be a rule of a Donatist your selues that shewe farre passing crueltie and horrible outrages to the poore Hugenotes and beggerly Guets as ye terme them hauing made them beggers and made as many beggerly Papists to suche is the papists loue to their owne side but chiefly their immortall hatred to the Protestants murthering them by heapes burning sacking tormenting yea euen the Carcases of the deade and sowing salt on the grounde for spite with infinite other vnnaturall and vnspeakable cruelties besides your secrete practises Me thinks this might haue béene remembred also But hem quoth sir Harry harpe no more on that string for then were you Papists double and treble Donatists Although ye were worse than Donatists herein also that so much peruerted altred abused prophaned hypocritically all those things that ye mention And abused with so much filthie abhomination euen those your religious Nunnes that many of your side were ashamed complayned thereon and therefore God hath iustly rooted them out ⪠Twelfthly say you The Donatists sayd of the Catholikes Illâ⦠portant multorââ¦m imperatorum saerâ⦠Nos sola portamus Euangelia They bring vs many of the Emperours letters we bring them the only Gospels
who moste pernitiously raysed vp a schisme of the whole Churche and had Circumcelions bothe a madde and fierce kinde of men whiche murthered with swordes maymed with Sythes and with Lyme mingled with Vinegar put oute the eyes of the true beleeuers And what coulde the Emperour do but chastise suche that deserued any punishement whatsoeuer although they had helde no hereticall errour besides and yet notwithanding euen agaynst these the punishement of death was so little defired that euen S. Augustine did withstande the Shiriffe when he sent out a sharper edict fearing that he should kill any And so broughte to passe that a more milde edicte was set foorth For as then all the Emperours punishment consisted in a forfeit of money in taking away their goods froÌ the Donatistes churches giuing theÌ to the churches of the true beleuers And if the bishops could not be corrected by any remedie they were banished but of killing there was no mention at al. And therfore against Pelagius there was neuer any motion of crauing the Emperors aide bicause he did not on this sort trouble the traÌquilitie of the coÌmon weale yea and that is more by the entreatie of the Bishop they which had payed their forfeiture had their money giuen theÌ agayne and their bishops reteyned their dignitie still in their Churches if they would change their opinioÌs So great was the lenitie of those daies towards heretikes and that such heretikes to There are many kindes of punishing besides the punishment of death Very farre in deede are they from this lenitie which now a dayes for euery word that either is strange to them or not vnderstoode they crie foorthwith to the fyre to the fyre Heere therefore betweene these deuines and me thereis no dissention but this that they considering what a great plague of religion it is that the church should be deuided into such factioÌs seeme more enclined to slaughter On the other side I am more slow considering wherto the parable of the Lord wherto the most holy mens interpretations wherto the lenitie and mildnesse of the ancient Bishops and of the Emperours against heretikes calleth vs then also thinking on this howe nowe and then mens affections mingle them selues in this businesse and how often suche remedies fall out otherwise last of all that sometymes the truthe is doubtfull and nowe and then it hapneth that he is in errour himselfe that layeth the heresie to an others charge many times neither partie vnderstaÌdeth other and they agree in matter whyle they iarre in wordes neither dothe S. Hierome speake rashely in the dialogue agaynst the Luciferians vnder the person of the true beleeuer after this maner no body saythe he can take vpon him Christes victorie no body can iudge of men before the daye of iudgement if the Churche be nowe clensed whye reserue we the clensing to the Lorde there is a waye that to men seemeth righte but the endes of it leade euen to the bottome of hell In this errour of iudgement what certayne sentence can there be c. VVhat Hierome ment by these wordes is cleare to the learned Truely they haue hitherto so moued me that I am of opinion that we oughte not to come to the laste remedie before all meanes be tryed Least perchaunce either through a corrupt iudgement the innocent or at the least he that might be recouered do perish or else euen that which is right be condemned for euer Thus muche and a great deale more writeth Erasmus on this matter But by this first we sée Erasmus iudgement and yet is he not counted a Donatiste Secondly he so describeth the Donatistes that these two witnesses of Iesu Christe which moste paciently tooke their death nor inuaded any others lyfe be fully cleared of this criâ⦠Thirdly he so setteth the Donatistes out that beyonde all the former comparisons the Papistes of all other rome néerest them in cruell bloudsucking in prouoking and setting vpon other that prouoks them not in farre more cruell tormentes than of swordes sythes lime and vinegar yea they haue lefte no vnnaturall cruelties nor mischieuous trecheries vndeuised and vnpractised Fourthly he sheweth agaynst this popishe tyrannie euen where they will not suffer the examination of the truthe howe contrarie it is to the fathers and auncient Byshops whome they crake to succéede Fifthly where you M. Stap. falsely cite S. Augustine agaynst vs Erasmus truely ââ¦iteth him agaynst you shewing what clemencie the Emperours vsed euen to manyfest heretikes and what crueltie you practise agaynst the true beléeuers In times past saith Erasmus the Ecclesiasticall mildnesse did mitigate the seueritie of Princes And now the crueltie of certaine Monkes except it were mitigated by the mildnesse of Princes would burst out into more than the Scithians vnmercifull rage Thus we séethese two that ye ââ¦ayte at are not alone they shall haue good companie if they be Donatistes for disallowing manslaughter But now what if these twoo reiected it not at all but onely shewed the exact difference betwéene the old lawe or manâ⦠politike lawes and the Gospell Will you denie that the Gospell that is to say the glad tidings of reconciliation forgiuenesse and saluation wrought by Iesus Christ is the lawe of grace and full of mercie I thinke M. St. ye will not denie this for shame Then should ye consider that the Gospell in it selfe killeth not but laboureth to saââ¦e it sendeth killing to the lawe the exercise threates and external punishment whereof is not altogither taken away by the Gospell but is forcible to the transgressours Nor the Gospell taketh away ciuill or polytike lawes from Princes nor the sworde to execute them on the euil doers And yet is there a manifest distinction betiââ¦Ã©ene the one and the other and so are euen your Sorbonists driuen to yéeld to Erasmus Quamuis Euangelium c. Although the Gospell do not expresly and plainly shew that Heretikes should be burned yet the lawes ciuill which are conformed to the law naturall which the Gospell doth not abrogate do decree that they should be put to death and burned So that neither be such lawes comprehended in the Gospell nor otherwise allowed than indirectly that is to say for the importunitie of the wicked And in this sense their wordes are not amisse But what sense soeuer ye make of their wordes ye can not proue them Donatists And yet if thus much also were graunted you doth this either charge vs that we be Donatists not allowing them therein if they had any such opinion ⪠or doth it cléere you Nay it once againe proueth you more Donatists For in very déede the Denatistes refused not simplie that the Prince should punish heretikes no nor by death neither if he would haue held with them and at their bare instigations haue punished the true beleuers by death they would haue then allowed it set him more on yea haue layed to their owne hands and
you captiously gybe and cauill for that belongeth not to supreme gouernment But that he is so the supreme gouernour in ouerséeing the consecration and deliuerie of the true foode wherewith the people of God ought to be fedde that euen he ouerséeth the féeder himselfe And for this cause the King is called of the Prophete the nourishing father and Quéenes are named Nourses that although the ministerie of féeding pertaine to the ministers yet the prouision for the foode the ouersight that the children of God be duely fedde with the right milke with the true bread and water of lyfe belongeth to the Princes And therefore haue they the name of nourses not to nourishe them in ciuill matters and corporall fââ¦de onely but as in ciuil so in ââ¦acte verbi in the milke of the worde of God also Is this only the cherishing of the good childe by giuing landes reuenewes maintenaunce and lyuing to the Churche Is this onely the displing of the frowarde childâ⦠or as ye call it the punishing of the heretike No M. Stapleton Lyra his exposition and yours doe not agrée He sayth they are nourses what to doe to feede whom the faithfull ones wherewith with the milke of the worde whose worde euen the worde and sacraments of God. Wherof sith the ministery and execution belongeth not vnto them but to the ministers it followeth necessarily thervpon that the prouision direction appointment care and ouersight which is the supreme gouernement belongeth to them And this is that which Lyrâ⦠confesseth the B. vrgeth of Constantine that he was such another nourse as did kepe defend maintaine vpholde and feede the pore faithfull ones of Christ yea caried them in his bosome as it were and procured them to be fedde did set forth proclamations not only against false religion but also to set forth to exhort and allure vnto the Christian faith caused not only the Idolatrous religion to bee suppressed but caused also on the other parte the true knowledge and religion of Christ to bee brought in and planted among his people and did not only make lawes for punishing heretikes and Idolaters but also reformed all manner abuses about Gods seruice Thus sayth the Bishop out of Eusebius did Constantine play the nourses part Nowe what saye you to all this M. Stapleton All this of Constantine say you is graunted and maketh nothing for you Whether it maketh for vs or no we will not contende But it maketh for the matter and being graunted it maketh vp the matter For and ye will graunt thus much from your heart inwarde which ye nowe graunt from the téeth outwarde by compulsion of the manifest truth ye might come home well ynough with a wannion and bestow your wit and trauell better than thus to graunt vnto and yet with pieuishnesse to wythstande the manifest truth of the matter The Quéenes Maiesties othe requireth no more of you to giue to hir than here ye graunt to giue to Constantine to set foorth Christes religion to make lawes and constitutions not only of punishment but of reformation of all maner abuses about Gods seruice to prouide that the Church be fed with Gods worde and in all pointes aboue sayde shewe her selfe a very nource of the Church committed to hir gouernement as the childe is to the nourse What one thing ecclesiasticall is not here comprehended or can ye shewe cause why she ought not to haue the same authoritie in hir dominions as well as Constantine to whome ye graunt it had in his if ye saye she doth not this but the contrarie this is but your wicked slaunder M. Stapleton But graunt hir hir interest and then trie that Hir right is one thing and whether she dischargeth well the same or no is another thing Graunt hir hir right as you doe to Constantine and then spare not to improue what ye can proue amisse Nowe hauing graunted thus much which in dede concludeth vp all the matter least he shoulde vtterly be discrââ¦dited of all his friendes he goeth about so much as he can in wrangling of wordes to defeate once againe all his former graunt according to his practise in the Chapter before For where the Bishop by the example of Constantyne proueth the Prince to be herein not only a nourse to the people but also to bee appoynted vnto them of God as it were the common or vniuersall Byshop as Eusebius testifieth of Constantine and Constantine to other Byshops calleth himselfe a Byshop signifying his carefull ouersight ouer all his people in setting forth Gods true religion Maister Stapleton first snappeth at thys worde Byshoppe secondlye hée challengeth the Byshoppe for curtalling Eusebius sentence And when Eusebius sayeth he calleth hym as it were a common or vniuersall Byshoppe I suppose yee meane not that hee was a Byshop in deede For your selfe confesse that Princes Bishops offices are farre distincted and disseuered that the one ought not to break into the office of the other The Bishops meaning is euident master Stap. and so are his words But your meaning is to brabble to tickle in the Readers heade a suspition that he confounded these offices Is there no difference betwéene these sayings he was as it were a Bishop and he was a Bishop in dede Yes M. St. and ye were not a very wrangler in dede ye might perceyue by these wordes as it were he plainly ment and as it were spake it that he was no B. in deede And what though he were no Bishop in dede in the function and office of a Bishops ministerie no more was he also a nourse in deede nor the people were suckling babes in deede nor the worde of God is milke in deede yet as these things be not falsly spoken but being borowed speaches in their senses import not onely a true but a more excellent vnderstanding than the bare wordes vsually betoken so the Emperour being named to be as it were a common or vniuersall Bishop and yet in deede being no Bishop it argueth that he had this name bicause of his common and vniuersall gouernment ouersight and care ouer all Bishops and causes Ecclesiasticall This shift therefore to slinke away from the manifest meaning of the wordes by threaping on the Bishop this kindnesse that he shoulde meane to proue him a very Bishop in dede is a very meane shift though it haue in dede a shrewde meaning Master Stapleton And if you did so meane say you Eusebius himself would soone confounde you if you reherse Constantines whole sentence that he spake to the Bishops What a good year meane ye M. St. ye vrge this meaning further than néedes that the B. should meane to make the Emperor a Bishop in the Bishoply ministerie therfore curtalled as ye call it Eusebius sentences If Eusebius sentence set it downe as whole as ye list confound them that meane to confound these offices it will neuer soone or late confound the B. the popish Bishops
it may rather confounde for they confounde their offices turning Bishops not as it were into lay men but into lay men in deede What the Bishops wordes do meane is most playne to a man of meane witte that list not to Iangle about nothing neither the wordes importe any such meaning nor this is any thing in question the ministeriall office but the supreme gouernment which are two farre different things But since that to no purpose ye chalenge the B. for curtalling Eusebius words let vs behold how you do set them downe For thus say you he saith to the Bishops Vos quidem eorum quae intus sunt in Ecclesia agenda ego vero eorum qua extra sunt Episcopus à Deo sum constitutuâ⦠You are Bishops saith he of those thinges that are to be done within the Church I am Bishop of outwarde thinges which answere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in which declareth him no supreme Iudge or chiefe determiner of causes Ecclesiasticall but rather the contrarie and that he was the ouerseer in ciuill matters And the most that may be enferred hereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt Ye would faine I sée M. Stapl. reuoke your graunt and it could be cleanly conueyde or so to limite it that it might not appéere ye haue granted that that all your fellowes denie But this reuocation is to late Neuerthelesse fuli pretely ye compasse the matter to defeate all these most plaine not wordes but doings of Constantine by shoouing at this name B. shop in the Emperour which in any case ye caÌ not abide And therefore as who though B. went aboute to confounde the offices of a Bishop and of a Prince and thereto had concealed Eusebius words ye solemnly take on yââ¦n to set them out both in Latine and in English. But tell me by that false faith of yours M. Stapleton why ye haue not translated the wordes aright in English that ye haue set downe in Latine did ye sée in déede they made nothing for you but rather much against you is the English of intus in Ecclesia within the Church And the English of eorum quae extra Outward ciuill things or matters or Ego vero c. Episcopus à ' Deo sum constitutâ⦠I am a Bishop what is manifest corruption of plaine wordes and euident sense if this be not this is past cutting of the tayle M. St. or slitting his nose and paring his eares to dresse it like a perfect curtall but euen to cutte both buttockes and heade away and make it a carrion karkasse this translating is trans I ordanem in déede But the wordes of Constantine the sense are plaine You saith he speaking to the spirituall pastours are Bishops of those thinges that in the Churche are to be done within or inwardly But I am appointed of God a Bishop of those things that are forthout or outwardly As who should say your Bishoply office in Gods Churche is in the ministeris of those things that worke inwardly that perce the heart enter into the soule cleaue the thoughtes in sunder and properly belong to the inwarde man the liuely worde of god My Bishoply office in Gods Churche is distinguished from this and is in things without that is in the outwarde setting forth and publique direction of Gods worde to be duly taught by you Thus both their offices were in Gods Church the matter and groundworke of both their Bishoprikes was Gods true religion But the doing of the one was pertayning to the inwarde man the doing of the other to the outwarde man. And this is the very distinctioÌ that Constantine maketh which being not falsely translated as you do and so misunderstoode may satisfie as ye say any reasonable man But your vnderstanding is very vnreasonable to vnderstand by inward things things ecclesiasticall and by outward things only ciuill things in déede they be out and quite out of the consideration of the Churche But wherefore then called he him selfe a Bishop also with them yea an vniuersall Bishop as Eusebius termeth him but to declare that his ouersighte was in the same matter that was theirs the matter was Gods truth and Religion in bothe the manner was outwarde or inwarde as eithers Bishoprike required Otherwise if he had meant onely of ciuill matters as you expounde he had bene no more a Bishop thereby than the very Soldane or great Turke or any other Heathen Prince that ouersee their ciuill matters very circumspectly And so as ye did in your fourth Chapter ye make Constantine for all these notable things in him that your selfe before haue graunted no better than an infidell Prince in this behalfe For by outward ye say is meant ciuill matters But the ciuill gouernement ye say also reacheth no furder than the peoples quietnesse wealth abundance and prosperouse maintenance that these thinges are common as well to the heathen as to the Christian gouernment Thinke ye M. Stapleton these Fathers meant no furder gouernment nor in other matters than these when they called Constantine an vniuersall Bishop and that Constantine measured his office no furder when he called him selfe by the name of a Bishop ⪠for shame M. Stapleton deface not to Christian a Prince after so Turkish a manner nor thereto so manifestly falsifie your authour nor abuse your reader with such a shamelesse impudence Well say you And the moste that may be inferred thereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt May we be assured M. Stapleton on your worde that all your popish Catholikes will graunt euen thus much For I verily feare they will graunt it no furder than it pleaseth them And where ye are so readie to assure vs of others graunts what assurance haue we had alreadie of all your owne liberall graunts when ye were disposed to wrangle as now againe ye do for how agreeth this euen with your former graunt that Princes might make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion that Princes might take some regiment vppon them in Ecclesiasticall causes yea might do as much as all these ensamples specifie and that now ye make the most to be but the procuration and execution of Church matters Although what ye meane by these wordes ye tell not would ye haue them onely the Churches that is as you meane by the Churche onely the Priests proctours and executioners now truly ye limite them a full faire office But thinke ye the name of B. and vniuersall B. did importe nothing els was that the most that may be inferred thereof and yet that is more than onely to be their executioner as ye said before to be as ye adde here to it their proctour also Yea it is
they ought to pay tribute or no. And that this was a great questioÌ betwixt theÌ And that Iudas Oalileus a mouer of conspiracie a rebellious traytour M. St. an English renegate a like mouer of seditioÌ are of one opinioÌ y tribute ought not to be payde But Christ was of a coÌtrarie opinioÌ all true subiects ought to follow Christes opinioÌ that tribute ought to be be paide And so doth Origen expouÌd Christes wordes When they shewed Christ a penie and Christ asked whose inscriptioÌ it was and they said it was Cesars He answered that they ought to render vnto Cesar the things that are Cesars and that they ought not to defraude him of those things that are his owne vnder the occasioÌ of godlines And likewise the same Origen saith Some thinke it simply spokeÌ of our Sauiour render to Cesar that is Cesars that is to say TributuÌ reddite quod debetis render the tribute that ye owe Quis enimââ¦ostruÌ de tributis reddendis Caesari coÌtradicit for who gainesaith it that tributes ought to be payd to Cesar Forsoth that doth M. Stapl. saying they might but they ought not Hilary likewise an auncient Father saith Igitur an violaret c. Therefore they trie him whether on the condition of the question propounded he would violate the worldly power An videlicet reddi tributum Caesari oportet whether tribute ought to be rendred to Cesar c. And when they sayd it was Cesars he said Caesari reddenda esse c. The things that are Cesars ought to be rendred to Cesar. And againe wheÌ he decreeth that the things that are Cesars ought to be rendred to him Likewise Basilius Magnus VVhen they had said Cesars he replied render c. wherein we be manifestly taught that those are bounde to the tribute of Cesar with whom the monie of Cesar is founde c. Likewise Chrysostome That the things that are Cesars ought to to be rendred to him Likewise S. Ambrose Et tu si vis c. And thou if thou wilt not be bounde or thrall to Caesar haue thou not those things that are of the world but if thou hast the riches of the world thou art bound to Caesar. If thou wilt owe nothing to the earthly King forsake all things and follow Christe And before decerne ye well what thinges ought to be rendred to Caesar. Likewise S. Augustine Sed quia Manichaei c. But bicause the Manichei vse openly to blaspheme Iohn let them heare euen the Lord Iesus Christ Hoc stipendium iubenteâ⦠reddi Caesari Commaunding not permitting this stipende to be rendred to Caesar. And on these woordes of S. Paule to the Romaines Omnis anima Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Si quis ergo If therfore any body thinke that bicause he is a Christian he ought not to render taxe or tribute or that honour ought not to be giuen due to those powers that care for these things he falleth in a great errour But that meane ought to be kept which God him selfe prescribeth that we should giue vnto Caesar the things that are Caesars and to God the things that are of God. Likewise Theophilactus Arbitrati se c. Thinking they should smooth him with prayses they flatter him that being milked he should say Non deberi Caesari tributum Tribute ought not to be payde to Caesar and therevpon they might take him as a seditious man and mouing the people against Caesar and therefore they bring the Herodians with them that were the kings men to apprehende him as a sturrer of new things Thou regardest not say they the person of any man that speakest nothing to get the fauour of Herode and Pilate Tell vs therefore Debemus hominibus Ought we to be both tributarie to men and to giue them taxe as wel as to giue taxe to God or shall we giue to God onely or els to Caesar also this they spake as I sayde that he should say that tribute ought not to be giuen to Caesar c. Thus we sée againe their question whether they ought or no. But Iesus by this coyne that was figured in the Image of Cesar ⪠Persuadet illis debere Caesari Perswadeth theÌ that those things are owing to Cesar that are his that is those that haue his Image Both in corporal and in outward things we must obey the king but in inwarde things and spirituall onely God. Thus al these ancient Fathers are flat against ye M. St. and expound this saying not that they might but that they ought and that we ought to obey our Princes And thus do your owne popish writers although partiall to your Pope yet herein reproue you Reddit c. quia reddere debitum est bonuÌ iustum Render c. bicause to render that that is due is good and iust And all the popish Postilles that I haue séene Poligraâ⦠Ferus Hofmeister Rââ¦yard c. affirme on these wordes that tribute ought to begiuen to Cesar and obedience ought to be giuen to Princes And none of them that I can yet finde founde out this fine conceyte that they may but not that they ought to do it Now on their side ye stretch so far the other words giue that vnto God that belongeth to God that as though they were cleane contrary to the former ye say they take away a supreme regimeÌt but sée how while ye would séeme so knuckle déepe in Diuinitie ye quite take away your Popes chalenge all For if it take away a supreme regiment how doth your Pope chalenge a supremacie in déede ye spake truer than ye wist for such a supremacie as he claimeth is onely due to Christ God Man to no simple Creature Prince Prelate or any other Wherfore he ought not to vsurpe it but giue it vnto the owner The supremacie that is due to godly Princes is neither such as the Pope claimeth nor is derogatorie in any Iote from the dutie that is to be yéelded to god But is the ministerie appointed by God to gouerne and direct according to Gods worde the boundes of Gods Church that God hath limited to his rule and ouersight And therefore that which you alleage out of Hosius of Spaine S. Ambrose that vsed euen these wordes Et quae Dei Deo against the Arian Emperour Constantius and Ualentinian the yonger are quite besides the purpose Thâ⦠Queenes maiestie taketh not on hir nor claymeth any such absolute supremacie and dealings as they twayne vsurped It is but your common sclaunder But sith ye onely touche it saying whose wordes we shall haue an occasion hereafter to reherse I will therfore with you referre the examining thereof to that your occasioÌ of rehersal only here I note this your folly contradictioÌ in citing these fathers allegations If this sentence be onely to be restrayned to the Iewes bare demaund if it meddle only with Tiberius
vpon theÌ selues to whoÌ they properly appertayne who in deede denie both Chryst the head and Christ the body that is his catholike Church And that as the Donatistes secte was condemned by Constantine Honorius and other Emperours the highe kings of Christendome So haue they withall condemned you master Stapl. that followe the Donatistes and so may and ought all christian Princes the Emperour nowe whose highe kingdomes besides a bare name in any matter of Christianitie ye make nothing to pull downe suche vsurpers of their highe kingdomes and set vp true and godly ministers in their places to whome they might and ought to submitte their heades vnder their spirituall ministerie To the whiche sorte as is shewed playnely out of Chrisostome your Popishe Priesthoode is cleane contrarie And therefore to returne your wordes vpon your selfe Ye are they that cutte in sunder the vnitie and peace of Christes Churche and rebell agaynst the promises of his Gospell Which Gospell ye can not abyde should come to light and therefore the highe kinges of Christendome should remoue and condemne you Whiche is a better argumente than yours M. Stap. and is sufficient to inferre the supremacie of these highe Kings and Princes The. 23. Diuision THe Bishop in his diuision prosecuting still the wordes of S. Paule Rom. 13. proueth further out of Chrysostome and Eusebius that as the Prince is Gods minister so this ministerie consisteth not onely in ciuill and temporall but also in the well ordering of the Church matters and their diligent rule and care therein The effecte of his argument is this The Prince as Chrysostome sayth prepareth the mindes of many to be made more appliable to the doctrine of the worde and is the great lighte and true preacher and setter foorth of true godlynesse as Eusebius sayth Ergo His ministerie consisteth as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill causes The antecedent Eusebius proueth by the example of Constantine that his ministerie stretched to the setting foorth of godlynesse to al countreyes and that he preached God and not onely ciuil lawes by his Imperiall decrees and Proclamations And this he confirmeth by Constantines own confession that he taughte by his ministerie the religion and lawe of God that therby he caused the encrease of the true fayth And by the same put away and euerthrewe all the euils that pressed the worlde But the world in Constantines time was pressed with diuers schismes errours heresies false religions and many ecclesiasticall abuses and superstitions besides the heathen Idolatrie Ergo His ministerie stretched not onely ouer temporall causes but also ecclesiasticall Yea he counteth this his best ministerie Ergo. It belongeth to the Prince as well if not more than the other And so the Bishops argument followeth héerevpon that the Apostles sentence the Prince is Gods minister argueth the Princes charge and gouernement in all maner causes ecclesiasticall so well as temporall These proues of the Byshop béeing so euident M. Stap. answereth they are all insufficient saying I see ye not master Horne come as yet neere the matter I answere who is so blinde as he that seeth and will not see Were ye not of the number of those of whome Chryst sayth I came to iudgemeÌt into this worlde that those that see not shoulde see and those that see shoulde be made blind Ye might then both clearely see that he both coÌmeth neere the matter and satisfieth it at large Excepte ye be as blinde of the matter also as ye pretende to be of these the Byshops proufes But if ye woulde haue followed your owne counsell euer to haue set before your eyes the state of the question in issue betwéene them ye shoulde well by this time haue seene that the Byshop digressed nothing froÌ it And that your selfe of self will or malice will not looke aright theron but cleane awrie stil starting aside and swaruing froÌ the marke for the nonce to picke occasions wheron to wrangle For wherfore I pray you do ye not see that the Bishop commeth not neere the matter I see not say you that Constantine changed religion plucked downe Altares deposed Byshops c. But that he was diligent in defending the olde and former faythe of the Christians Whatsoeuer you see or see not in Constantine master Stapl. all the world may see false dealing in you and how lyke an vnnaturall subiecte to your naturall Prince ye be As thoughe ye sawe that the Quéenes highnesse had changed religion excepte ye meane false religion and that ye might haue seene in Constantine also He changed the heathen religion of the Paynims and abolished it with all their Altares Byshops Priestes and temples and set foorth the true religion of Iesus Christe He chaunged likewise and abolished suche superstitions Idolatries schismes errours and heresies as troubled the Churche of Christe in his time Which you might easily haue seene in Constantines owne wordes by the Byshop cited That he put away and ouerthre we all the euils that pressed the worlde If you say ye can not yet see that he ment all spirituall and ecclesiasticall euils so well as temporall put on a payre of spectacles master Stapl that are not dymmed with affection and then shall ye see that of suche kinde as the good thinges were whiche he set foorth of suche kinde were the contrarie euils that he put away and ouerthrew but the good things that he set foorthe were true godlynesse decrees of God the religion of the moste holy law the most blessed fayth c. All whiche are matters moste spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo all the euils that he abolished were so well spirituall and ecclesiasticall as ciuill and temporall matters If ye say yet ye see nothing but that he was diligent in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians True in deede neither can ye see any other thing in the Quéenes Maiestie nor any authoritie is giuen héereby to Princes than as Constantine was to bee diligente in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians founded by Christ and taught by his Apostles And if any other since that time haue brought in any things besides that old and former fayth to remoue the same and reduce vs to the olde and former fayth of the Christians For as Tertullian sayth That is of the Lorde and that is truthe that was before deliuered but that which afterward was thrust in is bothe strange and false And so sayth Constantine I bothe called agayne mankind taught by my ministerie to the religion of the most holy lawe and also caused the moste blessed fayth should encrease grow vnder a better gouernor Nowe séeing that many poynts of the Popish fayth and doctrine haue cropen in since that time and manie of later yeres besides and contrarie to the olde and former fayth of the Cheistians taught by Christ and left vs written by the finger of the holy ghost sealed and confirmed by so many myracles to endure to the
Apologie All whiche though it be a plaine digression from the Bishoppes aunswere and the issue in question beeing aboute Images and Idolatrie yet such is his importunitie we muste followe master Stapleton not whether the cause requireth but whether hys ydle brayne pleaseth to runne at randon Otherwise the principall parte of this Counterblast beeing reiected to hys common place of other impertineÌt bibblebables he would crie oute that hée were not aunswered in suche a weightie matter And yet when all is done as it is nothing to the present purpose so is it to no effect in any other matter at all For all his quarrell consisteth in these two poyntes The one that the Homelie wrongfully named Theodorus Lascaris for Michaell Paleologus The other for a decree of Ualence and ãâã agaynst Images For the former what Authours the Authour of that Homilie followed I knowe not howe be it he nameth not Theodorus Lascaris as you say master Stapleton but onely Theodorus neyther this missing of the Emperours name to him that woulde haue regarded the matter conteyned in the Homelie mighte bee thought worthie so great an outcrye excepte it were to you master Stapleton that still vse to stumble at a sirawe and leape ouer a blocke lyke to the Phareseys that Excolantes culicem Camelum glutiebant VVere stiffled with a gââ¦atte and yet swallowed a Camell Neyther was this so great an ouersight sythe Theodorus and Michaell were both of one tyme The one expelled the other and both still reteyned the name of Emperour For as Uolaterane sayeth Michaeligitur Paleologus c. Michaell Paleologus therefore at the same tyme inuaded the Empyre whiche two moste noble houses of Constantinople that is to saye the house of the Lascarie and the house of the Paleologie the one decayed the other lyfte vppe hir heade Theodorus Lascaris being thus expelled from the Citie of Constantinople yet raigned he still at Adrianople as the Emperour of Gréece And it is not vnlikely the occasion of his exile to haue bene about Images so well as other matters Syth the Gréeke and Latine Church haue stryued aboute the controuersie of Images nothing more and none so hotte For which matter chiefely the Pope rebelled from his alleageance and raysed all the diuision of the Empire in the Church of Christ that hath bene the chiefe decay and ruine thereof which onely sprang of the question of Images And yet sayth master Stapleton giuing vs no other warrantiss thereof than this his bare worde for Images VVhich had customably continued in the Greeke Church many hundreth yeares before and so reuerently afterwardes continued euen till Constantinople was taken by the great Turke and yet this good Antiquarie and Chronographer will needes haue the Grââ¦cians aboue seuen hundreth yeares togyther to haue beene Iconomachees that is Image breakers Are ye not ashamed master Stapleton to speake suche vntruthes euen where your selfe chalenge other of lyes For the authour of the Homelies noteth not here nor herevpon the dealing against Images all that space nor nameth any Iconomachees nor medleth any thing there with those 700. yeares that customably continued till Constantinople was taken by the Turke But onely of those yeares that customably continued from the primitiue Church till the time of the Empresse Irene The wordes of the Homelie are these These things were done in the Church about the yeare of our Lorde 760. Note here I pray you in this processe of the storie that in the Churches of Asia and Grece there were no Images publikely by the space of 700. yeares and there is no doubt but the primitiue Churche next the Apostles tymes was most pure Now where the words and meaning of the Homilie are most plaine and so true withal that ye could not gainsay it nor your Maister D. Harding coulde improue any point of B. Iewels chalenge about the same article ye wittingly wrest the wordes of the Homilie to the. 700. yeares preceding the taking of Constantinople by the great Turke chalenging the Homilie to alleage the Gretians to haue bene Iconomaches all that while thinking to fasten as ye call it a notorious lie on the Homilie But the Homilies truth is manifest and the lye lighteth on your selfe besides your rashnes to affirme without the booke on your owne fingers that for many hundreth yeres before Images customably continued in the Greke Church and so reuerently afterwardes continued euen till Constantinople was taken by the great Turke For the which though it would go harde with you to put you to your profe and to let it hang in suspence of a lye till ye haus confirmed it yet letting it passe I onely demaunde that if your Images haue such great force as your Legendes pretende howe chaunce they kept the Citie and their worshippers no better from the Turkes can they do no morethan the dumbe Idols that the Prophet speaketh of Habent gladium securim in manu se autem de bello latroââ¦ibus non liberant they haue a sword and an axe in their hand but they deliuer not themselues from warre and from theues Or rather if it be as ye say were the Grecians not deliuered ouer to those enimies as for their other vices so chiefly for that their Idolatrie as the children of Israell for the like were ledde captiue into Babylon The other thing that Maister Stapleton noteth in the Homelie is this Many other shamefull lies are there saith he to disgrace deface and destroy the Images of Christ his Saintes especially one wheras he sayth that the Emperor Valence and Theodosius made a proclamation that no man shoulde paint or carue the crosse of christ And thervpon gaily and iolily triuÌpheth vpon the catholiks VVheras the Proclamation neither is nor was to restrayne all vse of the crosse but that it should not be painted or carued vpon the grouÌd VVhich these good Emperours not Valens for he was the valiant captaine and defendââ¦r of the Arians but Valentinianus and Theodosius did of great godly reucreÌce that they had to the crosse enact And yet as grosse as soul as loud a lying fetch as this is M. Iewell walketh euen in the verye same steppes putting Valens for Valentinian and alleaging this edict as general against al Images of the crosse You take vpon you lustily M. Stapl. to chalenge in your brode language both the Homilie the B. of Sarum ⪠But it is your maner there is no shift ye must be borne withall chiefly in this your extrauagant by quarrel Otherwise if ye had coÌsidered more indifferently the homilies the B. allegatioÌ no doubt you would haue tempered your pen with more sobrietie ye chalenge either of them for two lies in this allegation the one for putting the name of Valens for Valentinian the other for citing that simply that was conditionall which though it were as ye pretend yet neither of these the B. or the Homilies author are to be
And what if it did not necessarily if it did it what is here the necessitie to or fro the matter and what if it did some necessariliâ⦠though not all Yet ye see here is somwhat gotten to helpe the matter for warde Ye graunt this doing argueth a supremacie in some Ecclesiaââ¦call causes although not necessarilie But stââ¦pping backe againe ye ⪠say And ãâã in no ãâã Eccââ¦siasticall concerning the ãâã discussing and determinââ¦cion of the same Well and what if this also were graunted you that concerning the finall discussing and determination he had supremacie in no cause ecclesiasticall yet might it followe that in all other poynts except the finall discussing and determination he had the supremacie Verily say you waxing somewhat bolder without any perchance it is most playnly and certaynly true it dothe not And howe proue you this M. Stap. For say you euen in this schââ¦maticall councell and hereticall synagoge the Byshops played the chiefe part ⪠and they gaue the finall thoughé a wrong and wicked iudgement And verily then without any perchaunce either your selfe do make a foule lye or else bothe in calling the Councell and giuing the finall sentence also the Prince had the superioritie For whatsoeuer ye deniâ⦠héere not 16 lynes before ye graââ¦nted that he ââ¦othe summoned the Councell and also that he and they anulled and reuoked that hys father had done at the Councell at Lions Lo heere in the annulling and reuoking which was the finall discussing and determination ⪠ye bothe ioyne hiâ⦠with them and place him before them And thuâ⦠vnawares whyle ye speake agaynst the truthe ye wotte not what or care not howe ye wrappe your selfe in contradictions and make your selfe a lyer Your seconde parcell is onely agaynst the order of the sentences collected by the Byshop asking him what honor he hath got for al his craââ¦tie cooping or cunning ⪠and smoth ââ¦oyning combining and incorporating a number of Nicephorus sentences togither For all these wordes you vse to outscoffe the matââ¦er and quarell at the placing of them vnorderly But all this whyle ye answere not one worde to any one worde in them and yet set you downe your marginall note with a solemne outââ¦rie O what a craftie Cooper and smothe Ioyner is master Horne But sée how handsomely it falleth out and how orderly euen where ye talke of order ⪠For where ye ãâã haue set downe this your marginall exclamation at the comming to his second parte saying what honor haue ye go for all your craftie cooping c. Ye set it downe for haste in the matter before answered concerning the schismaticall Councel and the bishops dealing therin doing as the story telleth of Doctor Shawe in his sermon of the prayse of king Richarde the thirde that or euer the king was come to the sermon had already sayde his parte that he should haue sayde at his comming and so with shame inough out of place and out of time repeated the same But you may say thankes be to God inke and paper can not blushe and although I thinke you can do as little your self yet a Gods name let it passe be it but the Printers misplacing of the note although it fell out ill fauorââ¦dly to light euen there where ye reprehende the Byshop for ill ioyning togither of his senteÌces and your booke ioyneth your marginal notes all besides your matter Now hauing thus stoode trifling in reprehending the order of the bishops collection of Nicephorus sentences bicause he setteth them downe togither béeing not so set togither but here there dispersed in the great long Preface of Nicephorus where the Reader now at the length should looke that M. Stap. should come to answere some poynt materiall of all the bishops allegations as though he had fully answered them all hauing sayde not so much as Buffe vnto any one sentence alleaged he repeateth his former vaunt full lustily saying What honor haue you I say wonne by this or by the whole thing it self little or nothing furthering your cause and yet otherwise playne schismaticall and hereticall For the which your handsome and holy dealing the author of the foresaide Homilie and you yea M. Iewell too are worthy exceeding thanks Is not héere a proper answere thus to iest out the matter with scoffes crakes raylings Surely M. St. what honor soeuer the bishop hath wonne by this or not wonne as he looketh for none at your haÌds your thaÌks ye may reserue for your friends you win much shame to your selfe your cause thus shamefully to ââ¦umble vp the matter all onely with out facing it Ye say the B. hath patched vp a number of Nicephorus sentences togither Why do ye not ââ¦ip a sunder those patches ' If he hath vsed craftie cooping cunning smoothe ioyning combining and incorporating it were your part to vnhoope theÌ to dissolue theÌ to answere them Tush say you what néede that they are al little or nothing furthering your cause Now M. Sta I thinke then they might be the easelier answered not so to skip ouer them like whip Sir Iohn at his morrow Masie But til you answere something to theÌ an vpright iudge will déeme them much to further our cause Although it is somewhat that ye grauÌt that yet a litle they further our cause â⦠I think by that the reader hath wayed theÌ better he shal sée they so hinder your cause that ye thought it the best way to let them all alone And that the Reader may the better beholde bothe your dealing and the Byshops allegations so iudge how much or howe little they further the matter and whether they might haue bene thought worthy the answering as the Byshoppe hathe gathered them so will I set them downe Who hath glorified God more and shewed more feruent zeale sayth Nicephorus to the Emperour towardes him in pure religion without fayning than thou hast done Who hath with suche feruent zeale sought after the most sincere fayth muche indaungered or clensed agayne the holy table When thou sawest our true religion brought into perill with newe deuises brought in by counterfeite and naughtie doctrines thou diddest defende it moste paynefully and wisely thou diddest shewe thy selfe to be the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and staye in so horrible wauering and errour in matters beginning to faynte and to perishe as it were with shipwracke Thou arte the guyde of the profession of our fayth Thou haste restored the Catholike and vniuersall Church beeing troubled with new matters or opinions to the olde state Thou hast banished from the Church all vnlawfull and impure doctrine Thou hast clensed agayne with the worde of truthe the Temple from choppers and chaungers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof Thou haste bene set on fyre with a godly zeale for the diuine Table Thou haste established the doctrine Thou haste made constitutions for the same Thou haste entrenched the true religion with
mightie defences That which was pulled downe thou haste made vp agayne and haste made the same whole and sounde agayne with a conuenient knitting togither of all the partes and members To be shorte thou haste saythe Nicephorus to the Emperour established true religion and godlynesse with spirituall butresses namely the doctrine and rules of the auncient fathers These are the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus for this Princes dealing in ecclesiastical matters Wherin are comprehended as eche man may sée all the chiefe ecclesiasticall causes The true religion the sincere fayth the diuine doctrine godlynesse making constitutions the fathers rules the catholike vniuersal church Neither ascribeth he to the Prince herein a power LegaÌtine froÌ Priest Byshop Patriarke or Pope muche lesse to be their onely executioner but vnder God he giueth him a supreme gouernement in calling him not onely the defender but the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay the guyde the restorer the clenser the establisher the entrencher and maker vp of all these things On the contrarie the puller downe and banisher of newe deuises counterfeit naughtie vnlawfull and impure doctrines of horrible errors and heretical deprauers And this his chief dealing herein to be most seemely for him and chiefly belonging to his princely office Dothe all this M. Stap. little or nothing further our cause if it doe not then it lyttle or nothing hindreth yours Why graunte ye not then vnto it if ye graunte but thus muche we wil vrge you little or nothing further for what is not héere conteined that is either conteined in the issue betwéene the Bishop and M. Feck or in the othe of the O. Maiesties supremacie that ye refuse to take But as light as yâ⦠would séeme to make of this it pincheth you and ye dare not grauÌt nor answere any sentence therof Onely ye giue a snatche at a worde and bayte at the bishops marginal note vpoÌ these former allegatioÌs Wherin ye play like Alciates dogge at whom when one hurled a stone he let go him froÌ whom the stone came wreaked his anger on the stone So set you vpon the marginall note that in déede hitteth you a good souse but the allegations from wheÌce the marginal note doth come ye let alone and fal to tugging of the note Only as I saide ye snatche at a word as though all the weight of the marginall note were setched only from thence and not from all these sentences But say you M. Home will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus He hath placed a note in the margine sufficient â⦠trow to conclude his principall purpose And that is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is indeede a ioly marginall note But where findeth M Horne the same in his text for soothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering c. of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie But O more than childishe follie Coulde that craftie Cooper of thys allegation informe you no better master Horne was he no better seene in Grammer or in the profession of a schole master than thus foully and fondely to misse the true interpretation of the Latine worde for what other is suprema anchora in good Englishe than the laste anchor the laste refuge the extreme holde and staye to rest vpon As suprema verba doe signifie the laste wordes of a man in hys laste wyll as summa dies the laste daye supremum iudicium the laste iudgement with a number of lyke Phrases So suprema anchora is the laste anchor signifying the laste holde and staye as in the perill of tempeste the laste refuge is to caste anchor In suche a sense Nicephorus calleth this Emperour the laste the mightie and the holy anchor or stay in so horrible wauering and errour Signifying that nowe by him they were stayed from the storme of schisme as from a storme in the sea by casting the anchor the shippe is stayed But by the metaphore of an anchor to conclude a supremacie is as wyse as by the Metaphore of a Cowe to conclude a Saddle For as well dothe a saddle fitte a Cowe as the qualitie of an anchor resemble a supremacie But by suche beggerly shiftes a barren cause muste be vpholded First all is saide by the way of amplification to extoll the Emperour as in the same sentence he calleth him the sixt element reaching aboue Aristotels fifte body ouer the foure elementes with suche lyke Then all is but a Metaphore which were it true proueth not nor concludeth but expresseth and lightneth a truth Thirdly the Metaphore is ill translated and last of all worsse applied A sirra M. St. héere is a whot sturre and highe wordes A man would thinke all is nowe answered to the full and yet when all coÌmes to all héere is nothing of all this a do agaynst any one sentence of the Byshops allegations But the poore marginall note and one poore séelie worde of all these long allegations shall abye for this geare First ye say M. Stapl. that M. Horne will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus What ye meane by leesing I know not But it appeareth he may leââ¦e or finde them all for any thing ye wil answere to them Ye slinke for the nonce to the marginall note which is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is in deede say you a ioly marginal note but where findeth M. Horne the same in his texte forsoothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie Is there nothing M. Stap. in all these allegations that ye coulde sée wherfore the Bishop set downe his marginal note of the Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed but onely this sentence yea onely that worde do not all the other sentences importe as muche as this that he is the guyde of the profession of our fayth the restorer of the catholike and vniuersall Church the banisher from the Church of all vnlawful and impure doctrine the clenser of the temple with the worde of truth froÌ choppers and changers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof That he is the entrencher of true religion with mightie defences That he is the establisher of the doctrine and maker of constitutions for the same that he is the maker vp agayne the maker whole and sounde agayne of al that was pulled downe Might not all this to an indifferent reader be thought sufficient to answere the marginal note and comprehende in all poyntes as muche as the note yea though ye quite set aside the sentence and word wherat ye wrangle And yet with M. Stap. this one sentence must beare the weight of all that the bishop alleaged the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so
of the Papistes I demaunde if Peter was made the first priest al other froÌ him how s. Iames could say the first masse that was said was Peter made Priest without singing or saying his first masse or any masse at al then belike Peter was no masse ãâã priest ãâã pope hath not hâ⦠principalitie of priesthood froÌ Peter nor any priesthod at all from him for Peters was no massing Priesthoode suche as the Popes is and pretendeth to be the principall of that order But at your leysure answere this onely nowe I note that there is a great difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and the supremacie of all the Churche of Christe which is your conclusion and that that your Pope chalengeth But the Emperours words héere do nothing proue it And yet suche principalitie or excellencie of Priesthoode as it was it neither came from God nor from Peter for any thing that either is playnely alleaged or proued héere but rather the playne wordes are to the contrarie that this principalitie was yéelded and giuen to the Bishop of the Citie of Rome by men for so sayth the Emperour antiquit as contulit antiquitie gaue it Béeing partly moued with the opinion that Peter was bishop there and partly for that Rome was the auncient and moste famous Citie of the Empire as appeareth in the nexte Epistle of Placidia by you mentioned who calleth it Ciuitatem antiquam the auncient Citie and the Citie that is the Lady of all the Emperours Cities And therefore it became them to conserue the reuerence therof For which considerations that antiquitie gaue to it the principalitie and to the bishop therof Which principalitie of priesthoode or bishophâ⦠was not aboue but vnder the principalitie of the Emperours estate as appeareth euen by these Epistles cited by you For first in the Epistle whereout ye take your allegation Ualentinianus telleth howe when he came to Rome I was sayth he bothe of the Romane Bishop and also of other that were with him gathered togither out of diuers prouinces entreated to write to your mildnesse saith Ualentinian to Theodosius of the fayth which beeing the preseruer of all faythfull soules is sayd to be troubled which fayth beeing deliuered vs froÌ our Elders we ought to defend with al coÌpeteÌt deuotioÌ in our times to coÌserue vnblemished the dignitie of the reuerence proper to the blessed Apostle Peter so that the most blessed B. of the citie of Rome to whom antiquitie hath giuen a principalitie of Priesthood aboue all others may O most blessed Lorde Father and honorable Emperour haue place and facultie to iudge of the faith of the Priests and for this cause according to the solemnitie of Councels the Bishop of Constantinople hath appealed to him by his Libels for the contention that is sprong vp of the faith to him therefore requesting and adiuring me by our common sauing health I denied not to grauÌt thus much as to moue my petition to your mildenesse that the foresaid Priest meaning the Bishop of Rome all the other Priestes being also gathered togither through all the worlde within Italy all other former iudgement set aside may with diligent triall searching all the matter that is in controuersie from the beginning giue such sentence thereon as the faith and the reason of the true diuinitie shall require For in our times the frowardnesse of multitudes ought not to preuayle against religion since hitherto the faith hath bene conserued stedfast And to the more perfect instruction of your worthinesse we haue also directed the gestes whereby your godlinesse may know the desires and outcries of them all Thus farre the Epistle Which if ye had withall sette downe it wold haue dashed your Marginall note and conclusion of the Popes supremacie It would haue shewed that this principalitie of priesthoode was so vnder the Princes principalitie that the Pope was faine to labour to Ualeââ¦tinian and the Empresses also to write to Theodosius that he might haue place leaue to iudge the matter And that the place of iudging it might be in Italie and the Bishop of Rome might giue sentence not as he him selfe should please but conditionally as the truth should require and that thus he would admit the Bishop of Constantinoples appeale to take place and so he sendeth all the gestes of the matter for the Emperour to peruse and know them and to graunt their petitions and desires In all whiche things though there were a principalitie of the Priestes and Bishops and chiefly of the Bishop of the chiefe emperiall Citie olde Rome so farre as appertayneth to the debating discussing and iudging the doubtes in controuersie yet so farre as appertayneth to the licencing thereto the commaunding directing ordering setting out and maintayning euen of the same Synodicall iudgements of the Bishop of Rome or any other the supreme principalitie belonged to the Emperours And this appeareth yet furder by the other Epistles that ye mention In the next Epistle of the Empresse Placidia to Theodosius the Emperour hir Sonne for the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople after she hath shewed with what teares the Bishop of Rome moued hir to write she sheweth how all thinges were done vnorderly at Ephesus against Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople bicause sayeth she he sent a libell to the Apostolicall seate and to all the Bishops of these parties by those which were in the Councell directed from the moste Reuerende Bishop of Rome VVho are accustomed O moste holy Lorde my Sonne and Reuerent Emperour to be put according to the Decrees of Nicene Councell and for this cause let your mildenesse withstanding so great troubles commaunde the truth of the Religion of the Catholike faith to be kepte vndefiled And so ascribing a principall prerogatiue to the Bishop of Rome she desireth the Emperor that the iudgement of the matter may be sent ouer to him Which sheweth that the Bishop of Romes principalitie was vnderneath the Emperours Likewise in the next Epistle of Eudoxia to Theodosius after she hath praysed the Emperour saying It is knowne vnto all men that your mildenesse hath a care and earnest heedefulnesse of Christians and of the Catholike faith in so much that you would commaunde nothing at all to be done to the iniurie of it And after she hath shewed how the Bishop of Rome besought hir in the foresaide matter to derect hir letters to the Emperour saluting you sayth she I desire right that your tranquilitie would vouchsafe to haue care to the letters and those things that are ill done ye would commaunde them to be amended vntill that all things that also already are determined be altogither reuoked the cause of the faith and Christian religion that is moued in a Councell gathered togither in the partes of Italy may be fetched out For it is written that all this contention raysed commeth from hence that the Bishop Flauianus might be remoued from the Ecclesiasticall dealings Thus do these
if ye meane by this visitation the outward execution of the Church lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with hisedicts and executed with his sword For in such sort many Emperors Princes haue fortified streÌgthned the decrees of Bishops made in Councels both general National as we shall in the processe see And this in christian Princes is not denied but coÌmended What the state of the question in hande is the reader hath often hearde How be it such is your importunitie that ye will neuer leaue your olde warbling But for the full satisfying of the Reader berein let him once againe resort to the issue that M. Feck requireth of the bishop to direct all hys foure meanes vnto wherin he would be satisfied And that is conteyned in these flat wordes VVhen your L. shall be able by any of these foure meanes to make proofe vnto me that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes I shall herein yeelde c. This then is the state of the question betwéen theÌ whether any Prince may take vpon him any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth Now wheresoeuer the B. proueth anything by the foure fore said meanes that any Prince hath taken vpon him any such gouernement as doth the Queenes Maiestie in causes ecclesiasticall there the bishop kéepeth himselfe to the state of the question in hande and satisfieth M. Fecknams issue What the bishop hath done in the two foresaide meanes is euident by that that is past let others iudge thereon Here the B. entring into the other two meanes prefixeth this issue againe before him to leuell his proues by The issue is now that by any of these two meanes remayning he shall proue that anye Prince may claime or take vpon him any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie in Ecclesiasticall matters doth And where the B. by any of these two meanes shall proue that any Princes haue taken ââ¦pon them any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall matters as the Q. Maiestie doth there the B. digresseth nothing from his question also satisfieth M. Feck ⪠demaunde This then being the state of the question betwéene them the proofe of any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes the B. first setteth here down the particulars that plainly declare what gouernment this is that the Q. Maiestie taketh on hir wherto he must direct his proues So that now that question in hande is this What is that gouernment in what particulars consisteth it that the Q. maiestie taketh on hir Which when here the B. doth specifie in the last Chapter M. Stapl. himselfe commended the bishop for his orderly going to worke therein and now crieth out here is a state framed farre square from the question in had whether it be so or no whether it be not plain dealing of the B. and plain warbling of M. St. let any man be indifferent iudge betwéene them But M. Stapl. sayth the question is not nowe betweene M. Feck and you whether the Prince may visite reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of schismes heresies and offences in Christian religion True in déede M. St. the question is not nowe whether the Prince may doe these things that you rehearse or no but the question that is nowe in hand being deducted out of the words of the issue any such gouernment demaundeth first what kinde of gouernment that is that the Q. maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir to the which question the B. aunswereth the gouernment that hir highnesse taketh on hir is such and such c. And so the state of the question is knowne what kinde of gouernment the B. must proue And looke where he proueth any such gouernment there M. Feckenhams request is aunswered And if he can not prooue any such then M. Feckenham may complaine that he is not satisfied And as he is bounde to performe his promise of thankfull yéelding so haue you no cause to warble at this the B. diligent enumeration of those particularities of the principal question least both ye should wander in an obscure generalitie also coÌtrarie your late vaunt that ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly But sée your falshoode how chaunce ye set not downe the Bishops wordes as he spake them but abridge them ãâã of thrée parts of them and more crying Here is a state framed farre square from the question in hande Here is a false subtiltie of you M. St. farre square from any truth in hand or out of hande The Bishops wordes are these The gouernment that the Q. Maiestie moste iustly taketh vpon hir in eccles causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting forth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer In place of all these wordes euery one béeing materiall to shewe the particular things wherein hir gouernment consisteth that she claymeth you onely for all these set downe these wordes The Prince may visite reforme and correcte all maner of persons for all maner of heresies schisines and offences in Christian religion As though the Bishops particular words specifying the poynts of hir gouernmeÌt conteined no more but this Neuerthelesse had the bishop specified no more but these words that ye thus contracte yet had he not swarued from the issue betweene them Any suche gouernment nor from the directâ⦠answering to the question declaring any suche gouernment chiefly the chiefe poynts therof that the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and you refuse to yéelde vnto hir For euen these particularities that you set out ye will not graunte without an exception and that is in effecte vtterly to denie them althoughe in daliaunce of spéeche saying in some sense ye would onely séeme to mollifie them For what else meane these your words VVhich perchaunce in some sense might somewhat be borne withall if ye meane by this visitation and reformation the outwarde execution of the Churche lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with his edicts and executed with his sworde for in suche sorte many Emperours and Princes haue fortified and strengthened the decrees of Byshops made in Councels bothe generall and nationall as we shall in the processe see And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Christian Princes haue héere gotten afaire catche by this your graunt and commendation to become your seruants your souldiours your slaughtermen only executing with their swords that you with your authoritie decrée and appoint vnto them Now forsooth a fayre supreme authoritiâ⦠But let vs sée how this doth hang togither Ye graunt theÌ to visite reforme
of the othe or statute Why say you they all appertaine not to the inferiour ministerie whiche ye graunt to Priests and Bishops only but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernement which you doe annexe to the Prince only In déede these thinges you make to appertayne to youre Pope to whome ye giue such supreme iurisdiction and gouernement as annexeth all this to his papal authoritie But ye doe wickedly herein and iniurie to our sauiour Christe to whom only such supreme iurisdiction and gouernment belongeth and vnder whome the inferiour ministers maye do these things not as they please but as he hathe prescribed them The Iurisdiction and authoritie appertaineth onely to ministers bishops or priestes as ye call them To whome herein we doe not as ye sclaunder vs graunt only an Inferiour ministerie but euen an higher ministerie than wée giue to Princes In their spirituall ministration they are higher ministers but in gouerning them ouerséeing them directing punishing maynteyning placing or displacing them as they shall do their dueties well or yll the Prince therein is higher than they and his gouernement vnder God is supreme and chiefe in all suche causes as belongeth to the Ecclesiasticall persons or any other in his territories This is that the statute ascribeth and the othe requireth farre from youre malicious and sclaunderous slate of the question that you haue here deuised Whiche as ye say the truthe therein the Bishop proueth not for it is no part for him to proue But that this is the ââ¦slue he fully preueth Yea and proueth the full contentes of the Othe also to the whyche ye woulde so fayne driue the question nowe in hande After ye haue thus sette vp a false and wrong state and quarelled at the verie state of the question in hande playnly and truely set downe by the Bishop ye enter into your second part wherin prefixing an other marginal note Master Hornes dissembling falsehood ye chalenge the B. to omit two clauses of the statute the one at the beginning therof the other at the ende The former is this That no foraine person shall haue any maner of authoritie in any spirituall cause within this realme By whiche wordes is flatly excluded saye you all the authoritie of the whole bodie of the Catholike Churche without the realme as in a place more conuenient towardes the ende of the laste booke it shall by Gods grace be euidently proued If that be a place more conuenient why doe ye anticipate it here not so conueniently where it appertayneth not to the question in hand The Bishop now medleth not with that parcell that excludeth all foraine authoritie but onely with that parte that expresseth what manner of authoritie it is that the Quéenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir And this the Bishop playnely and faithefully dothe not here intermedlyng with other pointes of the statute But where that conuenient occasion is there ye shall sée the Bishop touch that that here ye call for And there a Gods name answere hym if ye can But your fingers itched ye coulde not holde youre hande but néedes ye muste euen nowe haue a fling thereat for a farewell Althoughe therein ye proprely ouertourne youre selfe and yet to make somewhat of the matter yée playe all the false playe yée can For where the Statute mencioneth onely anye forraine persone to haue no authoritie you conclude that it excludeth all the authoritie of the whole bodye of the Catholike Churche withoute the Realme Where as there the Statute mencioneth not the catholike Churche at all And besides who séeth not a great difference betwéene these twayne any persons authoritie and the whole bodies authoritie And who séeth not withall that if England be a parcell and membre of the whole bodie of the Catholike Churche of Christe and all the membres make one vnited bodie then neither is the whole bodie foraine to the members thereof nor the particular membres foraine to the whole bodie Nor in déede any parte of this mysticall bodie is excluded But in that respect that one countreyman is foraine to an other suche foraine authoritie of any foraine person is thereby excluded But in regarde of the bodye of the Catholike churche if ye meane Christes holie Catholike Churche there is neyther Iew nor Gréeke Scythian nor Barbarian nor any forayne Countreyman we are no straungers and forainers but Citizens of the Saintes and of the householde of God and all compacte in Christe nor any is excluded oute of this Churche if he be in and of this Churche bycause he is not forayne And where ye saye the whole bodie of the Churche without the Realme youre wordes implie a contradiction to themselues For if the realme be a parcell of the bodie of the churche whiche perchaunce you will denye or if the realme be a parcell of the bodie of the Churche whyche you wyll not denie then that which is without the realme is not the whole bodie as ye call it But lettyng this goe what is that authoritie be it of the most part or be it as you saâ⦠of the whole bodie of the Churche without the realme that ye would haue the realme allowe If it be the verie Catholike church of Christe then is it also the wyfe and spouse of Christ and hath no authoritie to make any faith doctrine or religion besides that hir husband hath appointed neyther England Fraunce Germanie Italy Spayne or any other parte or all the whole bodie of this spouse hath authoritie to doe it And looke what parte doth not this or presumeth to doe otherwise becommeth foraine and as foraine is cut off euen as a rotten and putrified member seuered from the bodie Euery braunche sayth Christ that beareth not fruite in me my father will cut it away But if this authoritie be for such ecclesiastical discipline as Christ hath giuen therof no expresse coÌmaundement then euery seuerall part may receyue or not receyue the same and yet is not estranged or made forrain from the whole corps of Christendome yea though the most parte of the churche besides authorised and vsed the same But euery particular Churche hath in it selfe authoritie to establish orderly suche disciplines as shall be thought best and fittest for their estate and yet is there no diuision or schisme from the whole thereby But sith ye referre your selfe to a more conuenient place where ye say it shall by Gods grace be euidently proued it is not much conuenient to stand any more hereon sith it is here but accessorie and ye confesse your self that ye doe not but ye will hereafter by Gods grace proue it euidently But I doubt me of two things the one of your euident prouing therof the other that ye will doe the same by the grace of God the dooing wherof is agaynst the grace of God. The other clause saye you you omitte at the ende of the statute whiche is this That all maner superiorities that haue or may lawfully be exercised
tââ¦cet consentire videtur for he that holdeth his peace seemeth to consent Howbeit I crie you mercie the case is altered For there ye defend your client here ye oppugne your aduersarie And belike ye haue some priuiledge from Rome euer to turne the matter so as may best serue your turne But and it were not for this your priuiledge surely I woulde further aske ye howe chaunce so soone ye haue forgotten your late vaunt and euen in this leafe wherin ye crake that ye walke not in generall wordes but restrayne your selfe to particulars now stande quarrelling about the generall words of the statute and mocke the B. for particulars if ye shalâ⦠laye forth your priuiledge to doe this when ye thinke ye may get some aduauntage thereby yet I thinke your priuiledge stretcheth not both to wrest the state of the question in hande and of the issue to the statute and to wrest and belââ¦e the statute as ye please and thereof to gather what false conclusion ye lyst For first ye do the Bishop wrong ââ¦th Maister Feckenham hath set vp his issue to be prooued Anye suche gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes to driue the bishop from thence to the wordes of the statute that expresse it in all ecclesiasticall causes Herein ye offer the bishop wrong For by this issue betwéene them though the Bishop in euery Prince continually alleage not ensamples in euery Ecclesiasticall cause but nowe and then in all nowe and then in some for your Popes daily encroched on Princes and at length got the mââ¦st of all yet hath the Bishop proued and satisfied the vertue of this issue Any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Howbeit ye do him further wrong to chalenge him here for leauing out any poynt of gouernment in any Ecclesiasticall cause that euen the statute giueth hir maiestie that is to say A supreme gouernement in all things and causes Doth not the bishop set downe this M. St hath he not specified euen the same wordes oftentimes already and doth not his particular specifications coÌteine as much here also Nâ⦠say you he leaueth out the principall cause ecclesiasticall and most necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall Soft M. St. stay here or euer we demaund what this cause should be I demaunde only now why ye say supreme gouernour Ecclesiasticall is this your honestie in handling the statute doth the Quéene take vpon hir to be a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall or doth the statute giue this title to hir maiestie A supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall the statute saith A supreme gouernor in all Ecclesiastical causes ⪠And is there no differeÌce betwene an ecclesiastical gouernor a gouernor in eccles causes but you vse this your false captious speach to make that people beleue the slaÌder that ye raise on hir Maiesty as though she toke vpon hir to bean ecclesiasticall person to be a B. and a minister of the worde sacraments and by hir chiefe gouernmeÌt ouer bishops chalenged to be a chief or head bishop of Bishops like vnto your Pope And so hauing raised vp this slauÌder on the Quenes maiestie the statute ye chalenge the Bishop for omitting a principall ecclesiastical cause But what is that you aske forsooth iudgement say you determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise Here againe M. Stapl. ye speake as captiously for if by this iudgement ye meane an authoritie aboue the doctrine of Gods worde as all your side maintaineth that the word of God receyueth his authoritie of the Churches iudgement ⪠which Church ye call the Priestes and is authenticall bicause they haue ratified it so to be otherwise it were not true nor good then in déede as the Bishop hath set downe no such iudgement determining or approuing of doctrine neyther so coulde he haue done for the Quéenes Maiestie ââ¦keth no such supreme gouernement vpon hir nor such supreme gouernement is due to any other than to God alone who hath by Iesus Christ his sonne already fully determined in his holy worde what doctrine is good and true ⪠And what doctrine soeuer is besides that is neyther true nor good whosoeuer take vpon him to iudge determine and approue the same be it eyther your Pope or your Church neuer so much yea were it an angell from heauen ââ¦e must ãâã helde accursed But if ye meane by iudging determining and approuing of doctrine such authority as only acknowledgeth giueth testimonie admitteth alloweth setteth forth and strengthneth the doctrine of Christes onely worde not aâ⦠ruler ouer it but as seruant vnto it and the reiecting or abolishing of all other doctrine against or besides that wordâ⦠then hath the bishop not left out this ecclesiasticall cause in the statute though not iudging in that maner that the ecclesiasticall gouernour Bishop or Minister doth in his sermons or debating thereon but for so much as belongeth to a supreme gouernour And so sayth the bishop The gouernment that the Queenes Maiestie most iustly taketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the eccl. state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion buitie and quietnesse of Christes Church visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schisââ¦es abuses offences contempts and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer Marke these words a little better M. Stap. and I trust you shall sée it was you that ouershot your selfe and lefte out good attention béeing caried away in a cocke brayne ââ¦ume with too hastie a preiudice And that the bishop left out héere no part of such iudgement determination and approuing of doctrine which is true and good which is otherwise as belongeth to suche a supreme gouernour as groundeth himselfe on Gods iudgement ⪠determining and approbation What do ye thinke is true religion no good doctrine with you If it be the bishop hath not omitted it Can he care and prouide for it direct and set it foorth without iudgement without the determining of it to be good and true without the approbation of it On the other side are errours and heresies no false nor naughtie doctrine with you if they be then the bishop named them and thinke ye the visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting can be without a iudgement and determination agaynst them Then sithe he in playne spéeche ascribeth all this to the Prince which fully answereth all this that ye call for if as I sayd ye vnderstande this iudgement determining and approuing a right ye shewe what a very continuall wrangler ye be where no cause at all is giuen But incontinent ye declare what ye meane by this iudgement of doctrine For what say you is more necessarie in the Churche than that the supreme gouernour therof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truthe and
to make an ende of questioning This in the statute by master Hornes silence is not comprised True in déede M. Stapl. this kinde of iudgement is not mentioned by the Bishop ⪠but it is moste falsly mentioned by you For where ye say this in the statute moste maliciously ye slaunder the statute for this in the statute is neither named comprised or can be gathered thereon Neither the Quéenes Maiestie claymeth or taketh on hir this kinde of iudgement It is due onely to Gods worde and your Pope and popishe Churche violently snatcheth it from Gods worde chalenging it to them selues euen aboue Gods worde it selfe although they agrée not héerein togither For the popishe Churche will be aboue the Pope in thys poynt of iudgement maugre his bearde and yet they graunt the Pope to be their supreme gouernour ecclesiasticall Though they will not relent to him this supreme iudgement but giue it to the Churches iudgement And therefore they be of a contrarie iudgement to you that say this poynt is moste necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernour ecclesiastical By which poynt you wil make your Pope either no supreme gouernour eccl ouer you or spoyle him of a most necessarie meete and couenient poynt of the supreme gouernment that ye giue him but these are your iarres agrée as ye wil like cats in a glitter about theÌ This popish churches or papall iudgement the Q. Maiestie taketh not vpon hir nor the statute ascribeth it vnto hir and therefore the B. had nought to do therewith Yet haue we one thing more which after a couple of your slauÌders that I answere not but referre to your common place thereon ye charge the Bishop once more for this omission Agayne say you preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing ⪠are they not things and causes eccl How then are they heere omitted by you master Horne or how make you the supreme gouernment in all causes to rest vpon the Queenes Maiestie if these causes haue no place there What should a man vse many words with suche a brabler who though he haue nought to say yet will neuer lââ¦e saying of that which is nought to purpose Ye have beene often inough and fully inoughe answered to this master St. if the Quéenes Maiestie taketh not these thinges vpon hir then the B. omitteth not any thing that hir highnesse taketh on hir in omitting these things Neither doth the ⪠sratute yéelde vnto hir the doing of them It is but your slaunderous obtruding of the statute It giueth a supreme gouernmeÌt in al these things to the Q. Maiestie And so these causes haue place there so farre as is néedful to a supreme gouernour But from a supreme gouernour which consisteth in caring for ordering directing prouiding guyding maynteining setting foorth to the executing doing preaching and administring of those things is as farre from any good conclusion as you your matter are farre from truthe and honestie Neuerthelesse such is your great coÌfidence in this your Counterblast as though ye had so puft vp the falshood therof that no man could espie it ye lustely blowe vp the last blast of this your first booke saying VVhich is nowe better I appeale to all good consciences playnly to maynteine the truthe than dissemblingly to vphold a falsshod playnly to refuse the othe so generally conceiued than generally to sweare to it beeing not generally meaned ⪠But nowe let vs see how M. Horne wyll direct his proufes to the scope appoynted Why may not you appeale to all good consciences M. Stap. as well as that mayden Priest of yours that mighte bidde his maydenhead Goodmorrowe and haue as good a conscience for your owne parte as he for his parte had a maydenhead And to shew your good conscience for a farewell while ye shake handes at the very parting ye lash ⪠out a couple of slaunderous vntruthes togither Ye haue not many words to speake and therfore ye huddle them vp You say the othe is conceiued so generally that it giueth to the Prince your foresayde absolute power of determining all doubts and controuersies of preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing This lie to lappe vp all in the ende was worthe a whetstone M. Stapl. and his fellowe that iutteth with him chéeke by chéeke is as good as he That the othe generally conceyued is not generally meaned But set aside your malitious meaning to wrest the othe and the othe is playne and all one bothe in wordes and meaning But howe soeuer the othe were not so generally conceiued your meaning is playnely to refuse the othe And therefore héere in the ende for a remembraunce to all the rest you must néedes strike vp the stroke with ala lia and desperatly without al dissembling for the matter vpholde a falshoode with falshoodes euen to the laste breathe Et fiunt nouissima illius hominis peiora prioris And the latter ende of that man is worsse than the beginning ¶ The answere to foure Chapters in Doctor Saunders seconde booke of the visible Monarchie of the Churche concerning the question here in hande of a Christian Princes supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes First of the difference of both povvers the ciuill and Ecclesiastical in the original in the vse and in the end of eyther Secondly vvhether the Prince be the Supreme gouernour immediatly vnder Christ. Thirdly vvhether the Prince may iudge and define of ecclesiasticall matters Fourthly whether Bishops maye depose Princes from their estate and take from the realme their povver of electing their Prince if they differ in religion from their Bishops VVhich foure chapters I thought good here to answere vnto both bicause he is the last writer and chiefest novve of accompte among the aduersaries And these chapters aboue al other in his volume both draw neerest to the question of the Princes estate and shew vvithall the full drift of the Papists not only striuing agaynst the Princes supremacie but into vvhat extreme slauerie they vvould reduce all Christian Kinges and kingdomes The argument of the fyrst Chapter of the difference betweene the Ciuile and Ecclesiasticall Magistrate in the originall in the vse and in the ende of bothe MAster Saunders firste beginning with the original lconfesseth that both powers are of God but not both immediatly from God the ciuile power he granteth to be of God but by the lawe of Nations or the consent of people and other meanes of mans wit put betweene But streight he correcteth himselfe that some thing in the ciuill authoritie was reuealed immediatly from God yea Per multa in lege Mosaica diuinitus instituta suerunt verie manie things pertaining to the ciuill power were in Moses law ordeyned of God. And thus at the fyrst he speaketh contraries Herevpon he concludeth thus I thinke therfore it is agreed vpon among all men that the royal imperial power which at this day is exercised in
he was a good king in ouerséeing the Priestes do their dueties and not him selfe intruding into the doing of their duties But of this exaÌple we haue heard somwhat already in answering master Stapleton and we shal haue more agayne in M. Saunders fourth Chapter and therfore I reserue my selfe to the larger answere of it To this he addeth an Item of Iosaphat saying Itemque c. And also Iosaphat the king of Iuda distinguishing both powers sayde to the Leuites and the Priests Amarias the Priest and your Bishop stil gouerne in those things that perteine to god Moreouer Zabadias the sonne of Ismaell who is the captayne in the house of Iuda shal be ouer those workes that perteyne to the office of the king Beholde other thinges perteyne to the office of the Bishop and other to the the kinges office This we haue beholden alreadie in Master Stapletons obiection of the same and there may you M. Saunders beholde the answere And thus muche agayne for the vse of both these powers Now thirdly for the end therof saith M. Saunders Of the ende of both powers not the last but the middle ende that the ciuill power toucheth nought but this lyfe Christ saith Feare not theÌ that kil the body but they can not kill the soule And agayne the Apostle willeth vs to pray for kings those that are in authoritie that we may hue a quiet and peaceable life A quiet life therefore is the last ende of the ciuill power dwelling without the Churche But of that which is in the Church it is not the last but yet the proper ende it is VVhyle in the meane time the eccl. power belongeth to the lyfe to come as Christ hath sayde whatsoeuer ye lose on earth shall be loosed in heauen To this distinction of the endes of these powers I answere it is false not only the laste ende as he graunteth but the meaner endes also of the ciuill power in the church of Christ stretche further than this lyfe I appeale to the Princes institution and office Deuter. 17. I appeale to all the doings of the godly Kings Iudges and ciuill magistrates described in the scripture I appeale to Constantine the great that thought religion to be the chiefe ende of hys gouernment Yea I appeale to the places that euen héere M. Sanders citeth for his purpose ⪠manifestly wresting â⦠mayming that of S. Paule to Timothie For he sayth not onely Ut quietam tranquillam vitam agaââ¦us That we may leade a quiet and peaceable life and there endeth but he addeth further withall in omni pietate honestate in all godlynesse honestie In which two words chiefly al godlinesse what is included is at large declared against master Stapleton But before this place M. Sanders citeth the testimonie of Christ that the prince can do no more but kill the body I answere Christe makes not the proper ende of the Princes power to kill the body but rather as you said before out of S. Paule to saue it To kill it is an accidentall tude of his power yet Iwisse Christ spake not there onlye of ciuil Princes but as muche agaynst the tyrannie of the highe Priests or any other that woulde persecute the ministers of Christ to death as your Pope you his chaplaynes do But I pray you M. sand may not an ill Prince wrest his authoritie to destroy the soule also with maynteyning Idolatrie false religion In déede he can not kill the soule for properly it can not be killed But that kind of killing that the soule may suffer which is sinne and damnation the rewarde of sinne with the one striken of the deuil by malice and wounded of him selfe by errour with theother striken of God by Iustice and deserued of him selfe by sinne may not the ill Prince make his power be a meane therto and may not an ill priest on this wise kill the soule as wel and sooner than he I wot what your pope Pius 2. was wont to say Malâ⦠medââ¦ci corpus imperiti sacerdotes animam oââ¦cîdunt Ill Phisitions kil the body but vnskilfull Priests kill the soule You say your power stretcheth to the life to come In déede M sand the true eccl. power stretcheth to the life to come I feare me yours doth stretch to life as ye say but not to come but onely to the present life of the body but to death of body and soule both nowe and to come for euer Besides al this I appeale euen to your owne selfe M. sand that affirme the ciuil power in the church of Christ to stretch to farre further more proper endes thaÌ this life for in your fourth chapter folowing ye haue this quotation Christianââ¦rum regna leââ¦ularia non sunt Christian kingdomes are not worldly Wheron ye haue these words Moreouer the kingdomes of the faythfââ¦ll Princes whose people feare ⪠God are not altogither earthly or worldly for in that parte that they haue beleeued in Chryst they haue as it were lefte to be of the worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome For although the outwarde face of thinges which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome Yet sithe the spirite of man is farre the moste excellent parte of him and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his king and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not to be rather iudged spirituall according to their better parte than earthly And this is the cause why now so long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be anointed of his ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priests For euen the kings them selues also are after a sort ⪠partakers of the spiritual ministerie wheÌ they are anoynted Not that they shoulde do those thinges that are committed to the onely priestes hereto orderly consecrated but that those thinges whiche other kinges referre to a prophane and worldly ende these kinges shoulde nowe remember that they ought to directe to an holy ende For when they them selues are meere spirituall it is fitte that they shoulde wyll that all their thinges shoulde also be accounted as it were spirituall Loe M. Saunders in these wordes ye confesse farre other proper endes and farre other estates also in the ciuill power of Christian Princes than this lyfe of the body and the quiet tranquillitie therof And therfore what néede further witnesse when your selfe are not onely contrarie to your selfe but also beare witnesse agaynst your selfe Now wheÌ M. Sanders hath thus prosecuted these three differences of these two estates he collecteth his conclusion saying But if the ecclesiasticall power differ from the ciuill in the originall in the vse and in the ende and so well the beginning of the ecclesiasticall power as the vse and ende is farre the more worthy shall they not of wise men be iudged mad which either confounde these powers
wife or any other mans wife daughter or mayde in things perteyning to their duties and offices can and ought to doe Especially sithe your selfe in prosecuting this argument vrge the example of a woman All the women in his kingdome are his subiects so well as the men He hath a supreme gouernment ouer all persons in all causes can he therfore do their duties and yet he can haue the supreme gouernment to maynteine all lawes of matrimonie and to punishe all whordomes and yet not like euery somoner or other executioner of their punishements If ye say a woman may be no inferiour gouernour That is false a wife hath inferiour gouernment in hir housholde and many women haue had inferiour gouernments vnder kings in common weales as the Lady regentes in Flaunders c. But what if she were not an vndergouernour yet if she be a subiect gouerned the words of your definition coÌprehend hir saying A chiefe gouernour hath of necessitie the power of doing all those thinges which may be wrought of the inferiours to the magistrates of that congregation by their office or by any charge belonging properly to the same congregation But you will say perhaps that women are of an other kinde so that the king can not do al their offices As likewise for the ecclesiastical gouernment the Apostles might not lawfully do all those things that the widdowes chosen to serue in the congregation mighte and ought to do nor the ciuill magistrate of those congregations might or ought to do them Then will M. Feckenham presse you that your definition is false a gouernour can not do all things that belongeth to a subiect If ye say a woman is not a subiecte that is false If ye say she is not a subiect in respect she is a woman that is false also for both men and women are subiectes to their gouernours If ye say she is not a subiecte in respect she is a wife although I graunt the worde wife hath an other relation than to the king to wife vnto hir husbande yet what auayleth this sithe many offices haue many other relations also the sonne to his father the seruant to his master the scholler to his scholemaster and yet all these be subiects to the Prince although the Prince can not deale in all their seuerall offices But you thinke to salue all the matter with this exception I say not that he which is endowed with chiefest power should straight wayes haue the knowledge of euery lesser office for this perteyneth to the fact and not to the right Neither say I it is alwayes comely that he should execute the inferiour offyce by him selfe but I say there is no lawe to let him no power wants whereby the chiefe magistrate shoulde not do those things which the inferiours in the same common weale are wonte to doe Go to go to M. Saunders ye will still be like the gentleman that would fayne haue eaten his worde if he durst for shame Ye come in pretily and beginne to make some exceptions already you admitte he may wante knowledge of many things perteyning not to his office yea and that it is vncomely he should do them And in déede M. Saunders if you be thinke ye of euery subiectes doings ye shall finde many vncomely and vnreuerent things for so highe an estate to do and many things that he knowes no more howe to do them him selfe than that Cooke that would put mustarde into his milke to season it What and may the Prince do those things him self that are so vile and wherof he hath no knowledge He may say you and he will what righte or lawe may let him If ye talke M. Saunders of a wilfull foole that will caste him selfe and his kingdome away if ye talke of a tyraunt whose will is lawe that sayth as the Pope doth Sic volo sic iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas that is another matter But if ye talke of a king and of a lawfull power then I say his will and power oughte to be restrayned by lawe to do nothing vnskilfully nor vncomely for his estate I graunt he may abase him selfe to some inferiour kinde of offices to do them but not to all no not by the right of his royall estate And yet by his gouernment all those thinges are done that are orderly done Although he him selfe may not do them though he would Do ye not remember S. Paules similitude so ofteÌ vsed by your selfe M. Saunders of a coÌmon weale resembled to our body The head ye say often gouerneth all the parts and meÌbers but the head it selfe doth not nor can not do al that al the parts members do We stande not we go not we sit not on our heads our head reacheth not nor caÌ reach euery thing that our hande can reache doth Nor the head doth or can do the office of the shouloers back or belly yet ye graunt the head hath supreme gouernment ouer al these parts deuiseth lawes orders diets prouisioÌs helpes for all the parts and actions in the parts of all the body Thus ye sée not only by similitudes examples in which I might be infinite agaynst your thâ⦠exaÌples but also by good reason your definition of a supreme gouernour faileth he may be a lawful supreme gouernour yet can not do al the offices of his inferiours Yea it were vnlawful for him to attempt many such things and yet his lawfull supreme gouernmeÌt euen ouer all those things that he him selfe can not do nor ought to do is no whit therby empayred And therfore this is a false principle to builde as ye do thereon Nowe this béeing thus playnly proued a false groundeworke let vs sée howe ye procéede to frame your argument on it VVhich things beeing thus foretouched I adde vnto them that the supreme head or gouernour of any Church is the supreme magistrate of that coÌmon weale which no man hauing his right minde will denie Therfore if the king may rightly and worthily be named the supreme head or gouernour of that Churche as nowe this good whyle is done in Englande the same king shall also necessarily haue the facultie of working all those things which of that magistrate of that Churche may be wrought otherwyse he is not the gouernour of that Church in respecte it is a Church But in euery christian kingdome there are and ought to be many that shoulde preache the worde of God to the faythfull that shoulde baptise in the name of the father and of the sonne of the holy ghost the nations coÌuerted that should remitte sinnes that shoulde make the sacrament of thanksgiuing distribute it therfore he that is the supreme gouernour of any Church ought to be endowed with such power that no law should let wherby he might the lesse fulfil do al these things But a secular king although he be a christian can not do these things by the
and the childe after the sixth yeare of his gouernement beyng deade God placed a woman ouer the kingdome of Englande who also ought to haue bene furder from gouerning the Church than a childe for euen the kinde whiche at the laste displeased not in a childe so displeased the holy Ghost in a woman so farre as pertaineth to the gouernment of the Church that he in whom Christ spake doubted not to write I permitte not a woman to teach in the Church If you recken the yeares of King Edwardes raigne to inferre by the taking of him awaye so soone Gods misliking of his gouernement as you still shewe your malicious and ouer saucie constructions of gods iudgementes so ye bewray withall the foudnesse of your argumentes Did not Quéene Marie raigne a shorter while than hée and why note ye not the yeares of hir raigne also but this you ouerpasse in sylence and turne your argumente to hir kynde in that shee was a woman to argue Gods displeasure for the Princes gouernemente of the Churche but ye alleage nothyng that ye alledged not before oute of Sainte Paule I permitte not a vvoman to teache in the Churche neyther to vsurpe authoritie ouer the man but to bee in sylence Trow you Maister Saunders this is to bée stretched to gouernemente that no woman maye haue anye authoritie to gouerne a man if ye construe it thus howe will ye make your former saying good that the ryghte of a kingdome pertayneth no lesse to vvomen than to men alledging the examples of Debora Athalia and Alexandra and the lawe Num. 27. ye muste néedes therefore confesse that he speaketh there no otherwyse than ââ¦Ã©e dothe 1. Corinthians 14. of women not simply but of suche women as are wiues Neyther of all authoritie but of authoritie ouer the husbande Neyther of all speaking exhorting or commaunding but of the publique ministerie of preaching And thus doth your owne Cardinall Caietane expounde it Docere supple publice c. neque dominari directe hoc respicit vxores to teach to wite publikly c. neither to rule this is directly spokeÌ of vviues And so Catharinus hic locus manifeste de coniugata intelligitur c. This place manifestlye is vnderstoode of a vvife in the same sence vvherein it is read in another place let vvomen holde their peace in the Churches for it is not permitted to them to speake but to bee subiecte euen as the lavve saith But by the vvaye vvee muste bevvare that iniurie be done to none Although by no meanes it be the office of anye vvoman to teache notvvythstanding if anye vvoman bee endued vvith singular grace of God for God is free from all lavve that coulde bee able to doe these thyngs vvhen it shoulde bee thought meete shee vvere not to be hindred chiefelye hauing the gifte of prophecie but it vvere lavvfull for hir to speake freelye As is read of Olda and Debora that iudged the people of Israell as is apparant in the booke of the iudges Doth not the Apostle also warne that the former holde his peace if it be reuealed to another For we know that that glorious and one of the most deere spoââ¦ses of Christ Saint Katherine of Senes taught in times paââ¦e and hath made sermons yea euen in the publique consistoââ¦e of the Pope although she toke not vpon hir these things but with good leaue of Christs owne vicaâ⦠who best knewe in ãâã to be the true spirite of God and the feruencie of charitie to be giuen hir to edifie the Churche in those troublous tymes when the scisme raigned c. Thus farre and furder saith this Popishe Bishop whereby it appereth that the Papists theÌ selues vnderstande not this sentence of Saint Paule for a simple debarre to all women no not to preache in the open Churche if neede so required so that she haue the Popes leaue And can the Pope giue leaue in a time of scisme to maintaine his factioÌ when two or thrée Popes striue for the triple diademe and to Saint hir for hir labour And shall it not be lawfull for a Christian Quéene not attempting hir selfe to preache to set forth by the authoritie due to all princes suche lawes whereby gods truth maye be preached by those that are lawfully called therevnto may not a Quéenâ⦠by vertue of hir royall office in the open assemblye of hir owne subiects speake exhort persuade and commaunde hir people being also the Church of Christ to abolish al errors and receiue the onely truth of God was it lawfull for the Empresse Irene to publishe hir decrees in the Churche for the erecting of Images against the worde of God and is it not lawfull for the Quéenes Maiestie by publique decrées to pull them downe and forbid the worship of them according to gods worde this sentence therefore euen by theyr owne witnesse is but wrested to debarre a womans gouernment of the Church But Maister Saunders procéeding on his argument for Quéene Marie saith To the same purpose it came that the greate goodnesse of God called such a Queene to the rule of the kingdome that both sawe this selfe same thing and confessed it For Queene Marie not onely toke not this proude title of the head of the Church but also when she was admonished of others ⪠that she would be like hir father she brought forth most weightie reasons why she ought not to do it VVhervpon she chiefely exhorting therto that title was omitted and the proper honour restored to the successors of Peter If the title as ye saye M. Saunders be proude Quéene Marie had done wel to leaue it but your Pope not ouer wel to take it howbeit this title as King Henry and King Edwarde before toke it was no proude title but a title of their charge and duetie And therefore she ought to haue retained it nor did well in leauing it and rendring it to a foraigne prelate that had nought to do therwith And in whoÌ in deede it is both a proude and an Antichristian title both spoyling Christian Princes of their principall office in their particular estates and also bereauing Christ of his glory ouer his vniuersall Churche Neither can he claime it as successor of Peter Peter neuer hauing the possessioÌ of it And what waightie reasons soeuer she persuaded hir selfe withall to shake it off she taking the kingdome on hir the waight and burden lay still on hir charge before god And if your reason be ought of the effect and sequele of this hir refusall into what extréeme miserie was this Realme broughte in so shorte a time by the Legates spoyling by the Prelats burning by the Italians pilling by the FrenchmeÌs winning by the Spaniardes oppressing and by gods diuine Iustice scourging the Realme with strange diseases droughts waters dearthes to conclude the Quéene hir selfe and crowne impouerished all the Realme in daunger of perpetuall thraldome and vtter vndoyng if God of his infinite mercie
therof so let this by the way be noted that he giueth Princes most free Principaliue ãâã thoââ¦e causes that ãâã not the faith and Religion of Christ. But to place good Bishops and pastors in gods Churche to remoue euill Bishops and pastors from gods Church ââ¦o puâ⦠Idolatrie out of gods Gods Church to set forth suââ¦h ãâã seruice as is to edifie gods church to coÌmand the word of God to be read in the vulgar tongue to reforme Ecclesiasticall abuses to punishe whordoms to allow as honorable matrimonie in all men to call councels to commaund the Sacraments to be vsed as Christ ordeined theÌ to ouersée al estates degrées of persons in gods Church to do in al things to the glory of God to the publique preseruation of the Church to the faithful administratioÌ of their particular callings doth not diminishe the faith and ReligioÌ of Christ Therfore Christian Princes haue most free principalitie that is to say supreme gouernment in al these eccl. so wel as in ciuil causes Now that he hath granted to Princes thus much which coÌprehendeth all the question he declareth on the other side what he exempteth from the Bishops but so subtily that vnder pretence of debarring them from hauing authoritie in those things that he ascribeth to the Princes principalitie he both reuoketh his former graunt to Princes and conueyeth all those things vnto the Bishops Neither Pastors of the Church saith he doe intermeddle their authoritie in those things saue nowe and then to admonishe them and giue theÌ faithfull counsell neither doe we defend all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiect to the pastors of the Church but in those causes onely which would hinder the faith and Christian saluation except they were partly forbidden as diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes which the natioÌs committe without punishment partly commaunded as giuing of almes the defence of neighbours and chiefly of the poore the fortifying of the Church of Christ and Christian Religion and to conclude all other things which the lawe of God commandeth and prescribeth as necessarie to saluation In these wordes Maister Saunders speaketh cleane contraries the Princes haue the moste frée principalitie in all causes that diminishe not the faith and Religion of Christe and the Bishops doe onely admonishe and giue councel and yet he ascribeth all to the Bishops both to punishe all that would hinder the faith and Christian saluation and to fortifie all that would furder it What is not here againe giuen to the Bishoppes and what is not here againe taken from the Princes yea their Kingdomes and all in some places and nothing left for Princes for what else meaneth he by this we defend not all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiecte to the pastors of the Church As who should say some are subiect to them by the law of God where the lawe of God is flat to the contrarie that no kingdomes are subiect vnto them But as Maister Saunders contrarie to gods law maketh some kingdomes subiect in all things vnto Bishops so maketh he all kingdomes subiect vnto them in matters of diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes saith he as the nations commit without punishment Which as it is a sclaunder to Christian Princes as mainteining such sinnes which rather they punishe and Popishe Prelates both permit and commit without punishment of them so he ascribeth these punishmentes to the Popishe Prelates for nothing but for aduauntage as also the gyuing of Almes defence of neighbours and chiefely of the poore As thoughe that Princes did not or could not doe these things but the Priestes who by suche fetches gat all things into their clutches Maister SauÌders hauing thus séemed at the first to yelde vnto Princes great authoritie and streight to take away all againe from them and giue it vnto themselues least Princes might worthily thinke themselues abused he mitigateth the matter with this reason Neither ought it seeme strange to anye man that kings in these matters should obey Christ for this standeth theÌ chiefly vpon sith otherwise they cannot get eternall life As thoughe your Pope Maister Stapleton and you hys ââ¦riests were christ Good reason it is they shuld obey Christ otherwise as you say most truely therein they cannot get eternall life But sith you are not Christ this reason holdeth not But you will say you be Christs and represent christ Woââ¦ld to God you were M. Saunders and not rather ââ¦tichristes For if you were Chrittes you woulde oââ¦ey your Prince And not haue the Prince in authoritie of gouernement obey you whom you ought to obey since a Christian Prince is Christs also and in authoritie ââ¦f gouernment immediatly to Christians representeth Christ. Thinke you that Princes can not get eternall life excepte they obey your Pope so you tel them in dede make manââ¦e Princes afraid therof by which meanes you haue gotteÌ their gouernement from theÌ And thus prââ¦tending the name of Christ you saye VVââ¦en therefore we say that earthly kings ought to be vnder Christes ministers we say onely this that they no otherwise can be saued neither receiued of Christian people to a kingdome or oughte to be suffred in the administration of a kingdome than iâ⦠they both doe and pretermit those things that the lawe of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted If you meane the obedience to the ministers of Christ no furder than this to doe and ãâã those things that ââ¦he law of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted theÌ were the controuersie at an end for this obedience was never denied But before you went furââ¦er and would hauâ⦠the Prince to doe and preteâ⦠those things that the lawe of the Pope and his Priests would haue done and pretermitted ãâã you repââ¦e they be ãâã of Christ their ãâã is the ãâã of Christ this would be proued M. Saunders for it is ãâã of the chiefest pointes in controuââ¦sie As for Christs lawe we graunt that excepte the Prince obey it he can not be saued But that he which in any one poynt doth any thing which Christs lawe commaundeth nââ¦t or ãâã any thing that Christs lawe commaundeth is not to be receiued ãâã ãâã people to a kingdome or bââ¦ing receiued ought not to be ââ¦tred in the administration of a kingdome is a perilouâ⦠doctrine For who should thâ⦠be a king or who shoulde noâ⦠be turned oute of his kingdome For who offendeth not herein chiefely expounding the law of Christ as your selues ââ¦ed in what daunger and thraloââ¦me to you should kings become so that it were better be a begger and beg his bread than be a Christian king and rule and be ruled on this wise if these your rules were true But now to helpe the matter you will expound what ye meane by the ââ¦aw of Christ. But what the
M. sand And now as though he had brought an inuincible proofe he procéedeth saying But if he must needs be deposed at least for heresie hovv shall that controuersie be iudged without the knowledge of the doctors of the Church who only of their office haue the ordinarie lawful power to loke to the flocke in the whiche the holy Ghost hath placed theÌ to guide the Church of God. But the pastors doctors of the church could not be Iudges of any king except the king in that thing were lesse inferior to theÌ For neither the equal hath power ouer the equal neither the inferior ouer the superior VVorthily therfore we affirme that al christiaÌ kings in those things that appertaine to matters of faith are so vnder bishops priests ⪠that when offending obstinately against the christiaÌ religion ⪠they shall perseuer after one two rebukings bothe they maye and they ought for that cause to be by the Byshops sentence deposed from the gouernement that they holde ouer the Christians You conclude ful worthily M. San. your argument is this if the Prince must needes be deposed he must be deposed by the Bishops priestes This reason hangeth all on this presupposall that he hath so fully proued this that the Prince nowe in all post hast must nedes be deposed ⪠And yet we haue hitherto heard no such proues that should enforce any suche necessitie but rather necessarie for the bishops priests or any other subiects behalfe to let him remaine still vndeposed for them although he were an heretike So that we may rather reuerse the argument If nedes he must not be deposed the must not the bishops priests attempt to depose him Howbeit ther is no necessitie in the coÌsequence that if he must nedes be deposed that for heresie that the bishops priests must depose hi. Yes saith M. SaÌ for how shal that coÌtrouersie be iudged without theÌ what thogh that coÌtrouersie could not be iudged without theÌ M. sand must they therefore be deposers of him froÌ his estate bicause they iudge of the doctrine he professeth must they iudge of his Diademe bicause they iudge of his religioÌ but what if they theÌselues haue corrupt iudgements therein trow you priests bishops haue not had so ere now yes eueÌ this sentence of s. Paule that here you cite for the Bishops and Priestes authoritie giueth a plaine warning of it I knowe saithe he that after my departure shall come among you rauening VVolues not sparing the flocke there shall rise vp men from among your selues speaking peruerse thinges to dravve Disciples after them But say you saint Paule saith they must looke to the flocke so much the more in vvhiche the holy ghost hath placed them to guide the church of God. True in déed they must so do But what if they be blind theÌselues how loke they to it then And did Christ neuer talke of blind guides you post off that to the Phariseis Iewish Bishops But if you were not more blind thaÌ they you would sée a great difference betwéene loking to the flocke guiding the Church of God by teaching true doctrine taking heede vnto and discerning of false doctrines and teachers preching the worde of God with learned iudgement and betwéene the clayming of authoritie to depose Kings and Princes froÌ their royal estates Whie say you if they be Iudges they are aboue them and neither equall nor inferior They may be equal and aboue them too in learned Iudgement and also in the dispensation of their misteries yet in publike authoritie far inferior And therfore your conclusion A secuÌdum quid ad simpliciter faileth that bicause they are inferior in one thing to Bishops they be in al thinges or in this thing inferior Yea say you they are so vnder Bishops and Priestes that when offending obstinately againste the Christian religion they shall perfeuer after one or two rebukings the Bishoppes may and ought to depose them from their gouernment ouer Christians This is a great inferiorship M. sand to be so much vnder them For by this rule if a Prince as coÌmonly Popishe Princes doe shoulde kepe a Paramour ⪠a Popishe Byshop may depose him But they wil not be ouer hastie to reproue the Prince for that which they vse themselues neither couÌt they it an offence against christiaÌ religion yet in the christiaÌ religion iâ⦠is forbidden so is against it especially to defend it mainteing it as the Papistes do But if he do wrong to any of his subiectes wil not amende his wrong after a B. hath once or twise giueÌ him warning of it then by this rule the B. maye straighte depose him And in déede so they haue done would do if the wrong touch them if their lands and goods were diminished then by by it is against the ChristiaÌ religion it is plaine heresie except by the seconde admonition it be restored with a recumbentibus the king must be in al the hast deposed there is no remedie nor further respit for not only the Bishops may but plat plaine they ought to doe it Is not here a kingdome brought to a goodly state But he wil say he meaneth by offences against the Christian religion matters of faith But what helpeth this for as wheÌ the Lion proclaimed that al horned beasts shuld auoyd out of the wood although the Foxes pricked eares were no horns neyther néeded he haue gone ye he wisely foresaw that this was but a drifte to picke a quarel therefore he hied him out of the wood For since al lay in the Lions interpretatioÌ what if the Lion had said his prick eares had bin horns or as sharp as hornes surely then the Fox had dronke for it And if the Byshops may haue the like authoritie to bid the Prince be packing out of his realme if he offend the christian religion what will it boote the Prince if the Bishops be disposed to picke a quarel against him to saye he offendeth not againste the Christian religion but rather defendeth the true religion of Christ against the corruptions of it and in déede so he doth but what auayleth eyther his excuse or the truth of the matter if the Bishops shall say it is heresie and against the christian faith the Bishops that so say shal be the Iudges whether it be so or no were not the king as good get him out of his kingdome at the first or else they will depose him set him out with a heaue ho But that Bishops may thus hamper Princes as they list where find we authoritie or example in the scripture yes saith M. Saunders For God which at the firste so seuered the heauenly kingdome from the earthly kingdome that he suffered the kings of the earth to come togither against the Lorde and againste his anoynted and thereby notably declared his power while by the
they may be ââ¦conciled and continue together ââ¦ut you ãâã in this case of swaruing from the ãâã the subiect and the Prince may not continue together ⪠ãâã ãâã ãâã the man and the womaÌ are by their contract in mariage knit inseparably togither especially as the Papists maââ¦e the contract that it is neuer vndone for any vice no not for whordome although they graunt there may be in nââ¦ne but ãâã déede a separation so the Prince and the ââ¦ubiect being contracted togither in the polycie of a ãâã ãâã the one ãâã faithfull gouernement the ãâã promising faithfull obedience notwithstanding all their vices that fall out afterwards betwene them may not be ââ¦ieane parted a sunder the Prince from his authoritio the suââ¦iect from his obediencâ⦠but till their liues endes most ãâã ãâã together ⪠and as the priest ââ¦an not ãâã but by your owne ãâã makes ãâã againste you But now ââ¦ay ââ¦n and moue your question M. Saunders I aske say you if this by name should come in questioÌ whether this shoulde not necessarily be aunswered to that King which would become a Christian Let it be that King Lucius come to Blessed Eleutherius the Pope yea or else king Clodoueus to Blessed Remigius and desire them selues to be admitted into the societie of the Christian people But let vs suppose that the Blessed Eleutherius or Remigius answere to eyther of them we are glad most deere Sonne that thou desirest to be made a Citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certaintie that the case is not ââ¦ke in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde For in the Church thou must liue so that thou make captiue thy vnderstanding to the obedience of ââ¦aith But thou how greater thou arte in the world maist so much the more hurt the Churche of God ââ¦f thou shalt abuse the right of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike faithe No otherwise therfore maist thou haue entrie into the Church than if thou shalte promise that thou wilt persist in that saââ¦h and defende that Church with all thy force which being receiued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this daye and dispersed throughe oute all the world But if it shall chance thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalt go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to lead a priuate life here if the King Lucius make answere I am ready to acknowledge the ChristiaÌ faith but I neither promise that I will defend with my sword the Catholike faith neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the righte of my kingdome Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and deliuer the sacrament of thanksgiuing can he therfore be a member of Christ that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him Your example and your question hang not together M. Saunders to your last question I answere that he can not be a member of Christe that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him But what is this question to your former question of submitting himselfe to the Byshop to depose him there is greater difference betwixte Christs Scepter and the Bishops Crosier than betwéene the Kings Crowne and the Bishops Miter But to come to your examples which drawe somewhat nerer to your purpose First trow you that these two examples of King Lucius and Clodoueâ⦠will answere al thââ¦se and serue for all Kings I suppose they will not ⪠For these kings receiued Baptisme being of lawfull yeares and ââ¦ight haue made a voluntarie graunt to all that you prââ¦suppose your Bishops would haue demauÌââ¦ed of theÌ so might haue snarled themselues in their briers and bondage But yeutaÌ not presuppose the like of infants especially of those infantes whose parents were Christâ⦠Princes before who are baptized long before they are kings And althoughe they might order y child as ill as they ordered y other that ââ¦o rawly came to ChristeÌdome yet would not the parentes being alreadââ¦e Christened bring their Children in such bondage Neither could they demand it of a childe which was not a king nor perchaunce borne to a kingdome but gat it afterwarde by prowesse Secondly these be but vaine presupposals false For although Clodouenâ⦠was Baptized by Remigius yet was not Lucius baptized by Eleutherius but either by the two preachers which Eleutherius sent or as it rather appéereth by the content of Eleutherius letters King Lucius was himselfe a Christian before therfore Eleutherius sent them not as Legates nor sent any such conditions by them nor any lawes or ceremonies of the Church of Rome but referreth y King to the word of God and was so farre from taking vpon him to be gods Uiââ¦ar ouer the King his kingdome that in plain words be yeldeth that authoritie title to King Lucius And as for Clodoueus though he call Remigius his patrone author of the discipline and ReligioÌ bicause he baptized him in structed him therin yet as for any such couenant or condition not to admit him to the faith of Christ except he woulde sweare before hand that if he would not defend the Bishops their faith he shoulde forsake his kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life Remigius conditioned no such thing no more than Elentherins before had done to Lucius For when Clodoneus being an infidel and yet hauing a Christian wise which made him somââ¦hat more enclinable being in battaile against the Almaines making his vowe to Christ in his distresse to receiue the ChristiaÌ faith if he should get the victorie which being obtained and he returned home with triumph willing to receiue the faith of Christ his wise made hast to Remigius the Bishop of Remes Lxhorting him saith ââ¦onius forthwith to come to the Court that while he wauered yet in suspence he would open to him the way of truth that leadeth to God for she said she feared least his minde puffed vp with prosperitie while he knoweth not the giuer of these things he should contemne him For things that fall oute as we would haue them fall out of our minde likewise in continuance of ryme more easilie than those things that fall out otherwise than we would The Bishop hasteneth to obey the admonishing of the Religious woman He presenteth himself to the sight of the King that nowe a prettie while had aboade his coÌming The faith is declared by the Bishop the meanes of beleuing is taught The King also acknowledging the faith deuoutly promiseth that he wââ¦l serue one god As for the peeres of his Realme armie he will proue his opinion which what it is of this matter he affirmeth that so muche more denoutly they wold submit their neckes to Christ how much more they should see theÌselues to be prouoked with
of Christe to haue so mightie a Realme as Englande or Fraunce to become Christian by this offer why is not this offer taken for sooth the B. refuseth it Is not here a great iniurie offered to Christs Church by this B but whie doth the B. thus bycause the Prince will not promise obedience to the Prelates and to renounce his kingdome if he swarue from his obedience to them Is this a sufficient cause for want of obedience to the Prieste to defeate Chryste of his obedience Nay say you he made an exception that he vvoulde not submit his Diademe to Christ. By your leaue M. Saunders there you say not true Loke on your own presupposall once again yea on the words you made the Prince to speake whiche althoughe they were of your owne deuising for you neuer I suppose heard or read of Prince desirous to be baptized that spake on that fashion you do but tell the Princes tale to your aduantage yet finde you no such wordes in the wordes that you speake for him yea he speaketh the contrarie in offering to acknowledge the faith of Christ. But say you he would not submit his Diademe make his kingdome subiecte in the cause of faithe to the Ministers of Christ and that is all one vvyth denying to submit his Diademe to Christ. Yea Master Sanders were it admitted ye were ministers of Christ is Christ you al one the submissioÌ to Christ to his ministers al one Backare M. Saâ⦠there is a great difference And yet Chryst requireth no submission of Diademes or subiection of kingdoms in such sort vnto him that he wold haue kings resigne them vp to him and he woulde take them no he neuer vsed that practise He might haue had such kingdomes if he had list but he refused them as your selfe before haue confessed Althoughe your Pope will haue kings resigne their kingdomes vnto him and he will take them and ruffle in greater pompe than any king vseth to doe Whiche argueth playnely that he is not Christes minister And therefore the king hardyly may refuse his vnlawfull demaunde that he woulde in the name of Christ extort as Christes officer which his master Christe both refused himselfe and forbad in his ministers And therefore the Prince dothe Chryste no iniurie bycause he will not bring his kingdome thrall to a false Prieste pretending to be Christes Minister béeing indéede the Minister of the tempter that offereth worldly kingdomes But say you hee muste make his kingdome subiecte to them in the cause of faith As though the cause of faith were hindered if the King made not his kingdome subiecte to the Priestes where as this were the reddiest way bothe to destroye the kingdome and the faith No Master Saunders the faithe of Chryste was neuer more sincere than when the Ministers of Chryst were obedient subiectes to their kings And the cause of faythe was neuer more weakened and corrupted than sithe Priestes haue wrong themselues out of their kings subiections and that the Popes haue made the Kings sweare obedience vnto them But Maister Saunders whines at this crying out vvhere is the obedience of faith that Christ sent his Apostles to procure in all the vvorlde You do well Master Saunders to aske vvhere it is for surely it is not with you nor in all your Popishe kingdome except here and there lurking and dare not shewe hir head for feare your Popishe Inquisitors woulde gette hir by the polle The obedience of fayth was frée when Priests were subiectes and since Priestes became Princes they haue taken hir captiue and exiled hir and done all that they coulde to haue killed hir But she is escaped your hands and requicouereth that libertie that the Apostles procured in all nations for hir And she doth so much the better bicause she rereth not worldly subiection of Princes but letteth Princes kéepe the estate of their kingdomes and requireth not onely obedience to hir in a more spirituall submission Whiche the more Princes yelde vnto hir they bring not their kindomes into more slauerie but into more libertie renowne and honour So that I truste shortely they will bring the Pope and his proude Prelates to their olde obedience againe Whie saye you this is to arme Princes agaynste the Church Nay Master Saunders it is rather to strengthen the Church to let Princes haue that armor that is due vnto them What say you to lette them doe vvhat they vvill and for nothing they shall doe to saye they vvill not leaue their Empire No bodie Master Saunders giueth Princes authoritie to do what they will. The authoritie that is giuen them is onely to doe good Their vvill must not be what they will but what Lawe vvill It is not with them as it is wyth your Pope Sic volo sic Iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas Thus I vvill and thus I commaunde my vvyll shall stande in steade of reason The Law is not wyth them in scrinio pectoris in the cofer of the brest as your Pope sayth it is in his I graunt there are Princes that doe thus but that is not their dutie Neither do Princes make a profession as you say that for nothing they will giue ouer their authoritie nor it is required of them nor presupposed But their duetie in their officâ⦠is required and it is presupposed they will continue therein Which if they do not but breake promise shall the subiectes depose them or the Byshops depriue them by whiche rule they may quickly set vpon the Prince for any enormitie in ciuil matters too for he promised to minister iustice to al meÌ but he promised to none to giue vp his crowne if he did not Yea though he had made them some suche expresse promise also and brake it yet coulde no Byshop nor any other priuate person attempte to depose him for the breach thereof but commit the vengeance to god But this Prince that here is presupposed offereth inough vnto the Bishop which if he refuse not the Prince but the Byshop endamageth the Church of Christ. Nowe Master Saunders presupposing in this supposall that he hath clearely euicted the case where the Byshop by expresse wordes maketh this condition with the king he will pursue his victorie that he thinketh he hath gotten and proue that the king hath promised and is bounde euen as muche where the Byshoppe at his baptisme saithe no suche wordes vnto him But if so be saith he all men vvill confesse that no Byshop can giue baptisme vvithout great sinne to that king vvhom he seeth so proude then truely although the Byshop by negligence or forgetfulnesse shall say nothing hereof vnto the king notvvithstanding suche is the obedience that the king himselfe giueth vnto the Gospell of Christe vvhen he maketh himselfe a member of him and desireth of him to be saued that vvill hee nill hee this promise is contained in that facte that he shall minister vnto Christ and to the
togither that your Pope might haue both powers in him but still what is this to the purpose that Bishops may depose Kings VVhether of these therfore say you shal obtaine the chiefer parts in the body of the Churche shall not the spirituall power which is giuen of God himself by Iesus Christ to that end that it might minister iustice spirite and life vnto vs as for the kingly power came in deede froÌ God but not onely properly by Christ as he is the Sauior but also by the sense of the minde conspiring the will of the people whether it were faithful or vnfaithful neither could of it self at any time pertaine vnto heaueÌ or minister life vnto hir subiects If therfore the chiefe parts in the body of the Church belong to the spirituall power ⪠truely that ought of righte to gouerne and rule the kingly and all earthly power that is founde in the same body of the Church Yet again M. San. I think aboue twentie times we haue graunted you the due superioritie of the true spiritual power I put to these words due and true bicause neither is your spiritual power the true spiritual power but rather an earthly and carnall power and that spiritualnesse that it hathe is rather from the spirituall power of darknesse than of the spirite of truthe and was neuer of God nor by Christ nor administreth iustice spirite nor lyfe but iniquitie sensualitie and death nor pertayneth to heauen but leadeth to hell I meane the spirituall power of the Popishe spiritualtie The spirituall power of the Ministers of Christe I graunte dothe all these thinges you speake of and therefore it hathe a superioritie but suche as is due vnto it in the ministration of these aforesayde things and not to encroche vpon suche superioritie as belongeth to Christian Princes But to stayne the Princes power you call it earthly and so it is in some respecte but it is heauenly in other respects also bicause it came from God and it representeth the diuine power of god It came from God you saye but not by Christe but by the peoples consent Howe true this is is partly answeres before and S. Paule sayth Omnis potestas est à Deo all power is of God. Is not Christ God howe then came it not from Christ And is not this spoken of the wisedome of God which is Christ Per me reges regnant Kings rule by me You make exception not by Christ as sauiour Is not Christ aswel a sauiour in that he is king as he is a sauior in that he is priest Not that say you the Princes power of it selfe pertaynes to heaueÌ or ministreth life What it doth of it selfe we force not M. sand we speake of Christian kinges representing Christe the sauior Not that the Kinges power saueth no more doth the Priestes power but onely the power of Christ that is both King and Priest but that by either of these Christ worketh meanes towardes our saluation and so bothe pertayne to heauen and minister life also the Bishops power in setting foorthe Gods worde and SacrameÌts the Princes power in ouerséeing that both the Bishops and clergie set them foorthe duely and that the people duetifully recoyue them But still what is this to the purpose for the Bishop to depose Princes shall we neuer come to our matter agayne this is a long vagarie But go on M. sand euen whether you list to wander For as in the same body of man all the members ought to obey the commaundement of reason onely of the minde bicause in the same body is nothing higher than the minde so also in the Churche whiche is like a mans body sithe the spirituall power gouerneth as the minde and reason all other power that is founde in the Churche besides ought of necessitie to be subiect to the spirituall power Ought I saye to be subiect not euery where nor altogither but onely in those things that pertaine to the saluation of soules and to the proper iurisdiction of the Churche And haue you spyed this nowe ⪠M. Sanders that the spirituall power in the churche is like to the rule of reason in our body but onely in these things How then pertayneth it to depose kinges to dispose translate and occupie kingdomes to cause subiects rebell which is the proper question héere in hande Do these thinges pertaine to saluation are these thinges the proper iurisdiction of the Churche ⪠then surely it is a proper Churche and it hath a proper iurisdiction or we shall make a proper saluation of ââ¦oules and you haue made a proper péece of worke so properly to proue your argument of the Princes deposition for the whiche I sââ¦ill ââ¦rie for some proofe but you haue belike forgotten it For shame M. Saund. come once agayne to your matter but go to nowe at the length you wil drawe neerer to it For if the earthly power do iniurie to the spouse of Christ or do not defende it from the iniurie of other when it may or in any thing faynte from iustice and truthe those that gouerne the church of God ought to admonish the ciuil Magistrate that he should decline from euill and do good But and if the ciuill Magistrate will not so amende himselfe they must make haste to other remedies for it can not be in a wel ordered citie but that for euery euill that may fall out there is a remedie prepared Nowe M. sand this geare beginnes to cotten For remembring at length your idle vagarie you drawe neerer to your matters for the Princes deposing And héere you presuppose thrée things either that the Church hath iniurie offred hir by the Prince either that the Prince where he may defendes hir not from others iniuries either that he himself faynteth from iustice and truthe Héere say you what remedie Those that gouerne the Church of God ought to admonishe the ciuill Magistrate that he shoulde decline from euill and do good For the admonition it is well and truly sayde M. sand and would to God the Pastors woulde thus do in these your presupposed cases ⪠But héere is no deposition of the Magistrate Howbeit craftily euen héere you haue as good as deposed him already For you make your selues ââ¦ose only that gouerne the Church of God and call the Prince ⪠but the ciuill Magistrate as thoughe he gouerned not also the Church of God and had nothing to do therwith but onely with ciuill affaires and that the Priestes haue all the gouernaunce of Gods Churche But as this is false neither haue you nor can you proue this but still reason à petitione principij taking that for an vndoubted true principle that is chiefly denied that you are the onely gouernors of the Church of God. So nowe that whiche you presuppose in the Prince let vs presuppose the like in you If you that call your selues the Church ⪠haue at any
time done ãâã to the Prince trow you ye neuer did it Did your Pope neuer iniurie to the Emperour did your bishops neuer iniurie to kings did your spiritualtie neuer iniurie to the laytie I thinke for shame you will not denie it If you do you shall haue witnesses inow of your owne side against you Agayne did your Pope neuer suffer iniurie to be done to Princes and might haue helped it and did not denie it you can for shame Moreouer did your Pope his Clergy neuer saynt from iustice and truth you dare not séeke to couer it it is so open and confessed What remedie now to amend these things the gouernors of the Church say you must admonish theÌ to decline from euill and do good Who are these gouernors of the Churche that ye speake of our selues say you Why then you must admonish your selues Would to God you had that grace M. San. that you would enter into iudgement with your selues and admonishe your selues But now running headlong in your faults and wil not heare them tolde of any other but thinke you do well he that shal tel you the contrarie you wil tell him he is an heretike if he come in your clawes you will burne him although he were some of your owne companie for so you haue serued diuers that haue rebuked your faults errors yea you are so sotted on your selues that you maintein you can not erre O how roughly wil you admonish your selues how soone shall all the worlde looke for your amendment Is not this a plaine mockerie with the world world is it not more than time for Christian princes that are in déede the gouernors of the Churche to admonishe you I denie not but you may yea ought to admonish the Prince also if he be suche an offender as you imagine But that you oughte to be the onely admonishers of them and not your selues of them to be admonished ⪠you sée the inconuenience And yet there is a difference betwéene admonishing and gouerning and a greater difference betwéene admonishing deposing But by little and little you drawe to wards it But what and if the Prince say you will not amend him selfe And what say I if the Priestes wil not amend theÌ selues we must make hast say you to other remedies Yea but not suche haste M. Sâ⦠that you break your sââ¦nnes and much lesse such hast that you breake the ordinaunce of god For in such haste is more waste than spéede the end of it neuer wanteth ââ¦o We graunt you there are remedies in the Church of God for such inconueniences but no such remedies as for the subiect to attempt to depose his Soueraigne and stirre the people to rebellion But if any say you beeing admonished amende not him selfe we are bidden to denounce him to the Church VVho if if he will not heare the Church is to be accounted as an Ethnike or a publicane Are you bidden M. Sanders if he be your Prince to renounce your ciuil polytike obedience that you ought him yea although he were in déede an Ethnike if you find this you come somwhat néerer to the purpose else you do not only wrest this place which is not spoken of Princes but also straggle cleane from the matter in question But now say you if any King not hearing the Church be permitted to holde and administer his kingdome ouer Christians who seeth not all the people ouer whome that King ruleth to come into most certaine danger of losing the faith for that saying is no lesse true than auncient After the example of the king the whole world is framed So while only Ieroboam as I sayd before worshipped two Calues the one in Bethel the other in Dan and appoynted Priestes not of the sonnes of Leui but of the basest of the people This thyng became an offence to tenne Tribes and for the greatest parte of Israell the faythe peryshed The danger and offence is great we graunt of Princes thus offending But for subiects to depose their Princes for these dangers or offences the danger and offence were not remedied but augmeÌted For what Prince were not then in danger if you would lay these offences to his charge were he neuer so giltlesse of them if he neuer so little offended you ye mightâ⦠say he did you iniurie or he suffered other to do it he helped you not he foughte not in your quarell agaynst those Princes on whome you woulde haue set him If he swarued at any time from iustice or but spoke a worde awrie yea if he but saynted from those things you woulde haue him do would not acknowledge that he so dyd who you reproued him for it when you tolde it one to another for you call your selues the Church then in all poste haste the prince must be couÌted as an Ethnike or a publicane be deposed froÌ his kingdome the people muste rebell In what danger by this doctrine both the Prince the people stand your selues also the teach this dangerous doctrine is apparaÌt The exaÌple of Ieroboam is a greater case but as great as it was neither the priests nor the prophets atteÌpted to depose IeroboaÌ nor the people rebelled agaynst him no nor the tribe of Iuda nor RoboaÌ were permitted to war against him for all this great losse danger that the people receiued by him Sithe therefore say you the wisdome of God hathe not lefte the Churche of God whiche is a citie excellently founded and defenced without a medicine which it may giue to suche a disease neither is there any other medicine can helpe than that which taketh away so euill a king from among the people and giueth the kingdome to a better man we muste beleeue that suche power is graunted at the least to the chiefe Pastor of the Churche in these wordes feede my sheepe and whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bounde also in heauen So that the chiefe Pastor can not onely excommunicate a wicked king but also set his subiectes free from al obedience of him The wisedome of God as you say M. Sanders hathe not lefte the Church of God without medicines for suche diseases Gods worde is euen a storehouse of plaisters as well CoÌsolidatiues as Corrosiââ¦es for the Ministers of Christs to apply them to any infected members But these medicines that are taken out of the worde of God you despise and reiecte as too base simples vaunt of your owne compoundes There is a medicine in gods word called In patientia vestra possidebitis animas vestras yâ⦠shall possesse your soules in patience when a wicked Prince ââ¦oth vexe them There is another called In fide fundati stabiles beyng founded in faith and stable Another called Ad te leuaui oculos meos I haue lifted vp mine eyes to thee c. Another In Domino confido non
timebo quid mihi faciat homâ⦠I put my confidence in the Lorde I will not feare what man can doe vnto me Another called beati qui persecutionem patiuntur propter iustitiam Blessed are they that suffer persecution for righteousnesse And a number of such excellent medicineâ⦠there are And in déede there is such a medicine too as you sââ¦y vt auferatur de medio populi that he should be taken from among the people But there is but one Phisition that knoweth the right confection of the strong purgation and that is God himselfe Ministers of diuerse sortes he hath by whom he giueth this medicine but I neuer read that any godly Bishop or Prieste or faithfull subiecte did euer minister it to his Soueraigne The texte that you cite hereto is not as you cite it auferat regem adeo maluÌ de medio populi that may take away so euil a king from among the people but auferte malum ex vobis ipsis take awaye the euill from among you not the Prince from among the people For that were to take away one euill with another And how should this euill be taken awaâ⦠Ne commisceamiââ¦i fomicarijs c. be you not mingled together or kepe no familiaritie with fornicators He saith not depriue him of hys life or liuing but be not defiled with his wickednesse And the greatest censure that s. Paule speaketh of is excoÌmunication pertaining properly not to the goods and bodies but to the soules of men Neither speaketh he there at all of Princes but of priuate men and equals in the Church of Christ whoÌââ¦e calleth brethren For the Kings and Princes at that time were ãâã Christened And he speaketh of such as they might lawââ¦y sââ¦un their companie such as Lyra calleth Ribaldes or verlets drunkards whorehunters Idolaters but not such as in the Ciuill polycie they muste néedes obey nor those that were out of the Church of Christ. I haue written to you saith he by an epistle that you should not intermingle your selues with fornicators not vtterly from fornicators of this world or couetous persons or rauenous or worshippers of Images else should ye go out of this world But nowe I haue written to you that ye intermingle not your selues If any which is called a brother be a whoremaister or couetous person or a worshipper of Images or a sclaunderer or a drunkerd or a rauener with suche an one we shoulde not eate meate For what haue I to do to iudge them that are without do not you iudge of them that are within as for those that are without God iudgeth Take away the euill from among you Nowe saith M. Saunders that S. Paule speaketh of taking away so euill a King from among the people and this he setteth downe in distinct letters as though S. Paule had ment the Priests should depose an euill King from gouerning the people Where he speaketh not to the Priestes but to the people and would haue them shunne the company of suche false brethren as were among them But M. Saunders will say doth not this stretch to a king so well as to any other if he be a brother in the faith of Christ I graunt it doth in that he is a brother And if he be infected with such vices hée also is so farre forth to be shunned But not to be shunned in that he is a Prince and gouernor of the people muche lesse the people to forsake their obedience to his authoritie bycause they must forsake their obedience to his vices He maye be so shunned priuately as the publique gouernement be not shunned he may be iudged of the faithfull in their courte of conscience concerning his crime but he maye not be iudged in their Courte of Consistorie concerning his worldly power he maye be taken héede of but not taken awaye he maye be euen excommunicated also by the ministers but not by them deposed bicause howsoeuer he deserueth it yet haue they no authoritie that stretcheth so farre That remedie belongeth not to them but vnto God. But now sir what and if the Prince be not onely no such malefactor but goeth about to resorme these malefactours where as other priuate men can but shunne their companie and the ministers of Christ can but excommunicate them which though it be neuer so great a censure yet they estéeme it not and that the Prince will punishe suche malefactors in their goods and bodies yea and take them awaye from among the people by death banishmente prisonment or otherwise as his office requireth he should do to whom the sworde is giuen against the malefactor what now if it fall oute that the Popishe Priestes be the greatest malefactors in these notorious crimes what if they be not only priuate whore maisters but also publike maynteiners of bankes and stewes for whores and dispisers and restrainers of honorable matrimonie what if the Popish Priests be so couetous and rauenous that they haue gotten almoste the wealth of all Christian kingdomes into their fingrings and are neuer satisfied with deuising naughtie meanes to picke mens money out of their purses what if the Popishe Priests be worshippers of Images and causers of them to be worshipped what if manye of them be common drunkardes and all of them drunken with spirituall drunkennesse which is a great deale worse what if the Popishe Priestes be sclaunderers of those that be in authoritie and woulde take the Kings sworde and Scepter oute of his hande and pull his Diademe off his heade and plucke his roabe from his backe and turne hym quite oute of hys throne and Kingdome and byd hym goe shake hys eares and styrre all hys subiectes to rebellion what if all these and an infinite sorte of other horrible crymes were founde in the Popishe priests themselues oughte not this rule of Sainte Paule to take place on them and all Christians to abhorre and shunne them and all Princes to depose and punishe them Nowe whether the Popishe Priestes be culpable in these crimes or no I thinke the crie of Sodome and Gomorre did not more astende vp to heauen than the crie of the Popishe Priests abhomination resoundeth in all the earth And thus this sentence that Maister Saunders thought to wrest against Princes if it be well examined falleth more out against the Priests themselues As for the other two sentences Iohn 21. Math. 16. are no lesse wrested herevnto VVe must beleue sayth he that this power to take away the Prince and giue his Kingdome to a better ⪠is grauÌted at the least to the chief pastor of the Church in these wordes feede my sheepe and whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen also In so muche that the chiefe pastor maye not onely excommunicate a wicked King but also set free his subiectes from all obedience of him And finde you this in these two sentences Maister Saunders we must beleeue it say you that this
power is giuen at the least to the chiefe pastor in these wordes Howe shall we beleeue it Maister Saunders sith these wordes neither say nor import any such matter that Peter to whom they were spoken is the chief pastor of the Church neither at the least nor at the most least of all that in these wordes these things are contained Christ saith to Peter feede my shepe ⪠you expounde these wordes that he gaue him power to take away Kings from their kingdomes and to set the people at libertie from their sworne obedience This is a proper feeding M. Saunders to giue them pappe with an hatchet as they say to spoyle Kings and sââ¦t their kingdomes in the vprores of rebellion ⪠Christ ãâã not his shepe on thâ⦠fashion nor we reade that euer Peter ãâã them so but with the worde of God and with exhortatioÌ of obedience vnto Princes Peter fead the shéepe of Christ on this wise Be ye subiect to euery humaine creature for the Lordes sake whether to the King as excelling or to his rulers as those that are sent of him to the punishment of malefactors and to the prayse of them that do well for so is the will of god For doyng well you stoppe the mouthes of foolishe and ignorant men As free and yet not hauing libertie for a cloake of malice but as seruantes of god Honor all men loue brotherhood feare God honor the king Let seruants be subiect to the Lord with feare not only if they be good and gentle but if they be froward c. And so he entreth into an exhortation of pacience vnder wicked gouernors This is the féeding that Peter fead the shéepe of Christ withall neither did hââ¦uer depose any Magistrate or set at libertie any subiects or vsurpe any kingly dominion but dissuadeth the clergie from it As for the other sentence of authorizing Peter to bynde and lose is so farre from giuing him authoritie to bynde Princes in bondage and captiuitie making theÌ to lose their kingdomes and losing their subiectes from their bondage of subiection setting them at libertie to rebell and chose another that if Maister Saunders were not too too shamelesse he would neuer thus apply it And yet he saith we must beleue it ⪠that in this sentence also Peter hath this power gyuen him which neither Christ nor Peter vsed at any time but both of them flat denie it But why shoulde we beleeue this M. Saunders For say you if whatsoeuer Peter or Peters successor loseth in earth is also losed in heauen then verily when he loseth orderly the faithfull subiects from the obedience of a wicked King in earth the subiects are in heauen losed from the obedience of that king Besides if whatsoeuer Peters successor bindeth in earth be bound also in heauen then when soeuer the successor of Peter rightly and well commaundeth anye King to go from his Magistracie which being thus affected he vniustly holdeth or coÌmauÌdeth him by whatsoeuer meanes he can to hinder another King that hindreth the faithful people from eternal life that he should not perishe in doyng wickedly that King is bounde also in heauen that is to saye before God and his Angels to obey the decree of the chiefe Bishop except he will haue his owne sinnes before God to be retained and not remitted Here is your Sampsons poste M. SauÌders that you and your Pope builde vpon for his supremacie that he hath the keyes of heauen and hell vnder his belte but howe grossely and shamefully this spirituall power of bynding and losing consisting in preaching the word of God and pertaining only to the soule of the faithfull beleuer or the vnfaithfull refuser is applied to the body goods of men to be taken from them is wrested to coÌmaunding of Kings to get theÌ packing from their kingdomes to bydding of subiectes take armes against their Princes to bidding of one King by whatsoeuer meanes he can by defying fighting and making warre by shéeding ChristiaÌ blood by violating peace by breaking leagues by wasting one anothers couÌtries to molest and persecute one another that all Princes nations are bound before God and his Angels to obey his bidding yea althoughe he were such a chiefe B. or the successor of Peter as he craketh is not is so horrible shameful a wresting of Christs saying so euident a contradiction to all other sayings in the scripture so open a gappe to the dissolution of all estates to bring all tumult confusion into the world yea this binding and losing were such a binding vp of all godlynesse and the verie losing of the deuill himself that it is maruaile that euer any Papist professing learning would be so grosse in this age of greater learning thus to expounde it Which exposition was neuer heard of by any godly father till Pope Gregorie 7. set it a broach and Pope Boniface 8. following him set all Christendome by the eares about it And nowe that all the worlde séeth the follie and wickednesse of it M. Saunders so unpudently would renue it But he hathe a shifting restrainte in this exposition to salue the matter When the Pope sayth he duely and orderly loseth the people from their obedience and when he well and rightly biddeth the king giue ouer his authoritie theÌ either of them are bound to obey his bidding True Maister Saunders when he doth these things duly and orderly well and rightly theÌ it shall be graunted you But how can he do that well and rightly duely and orderly that is most euil and against all dutie right and order can a théefe steale well and rightly can such extreme wickednesse that passeth all priuate thefte and is the open breach of all due order be dulie and orderly done But belike M. SauÌders thinketh if the Pope do it in his consistorie if he haue on his Cope and do it in his Pontificalibus if the belles be roong the candels put out then it is well and rightly duely and orderly done Such toyishe orders vseth the Pope to bleare the simple as though when it is done with booke bell candle it is done well and rightly duely and orderly but before God and his Angels in heauen and before all wise and godly learned meÌ in earth as these orders are mere ridiculous so these doyngs are most abhominable But nowe let vs heare his reason for this doyng For if whatsoeuer power any king hath he ought to conuert and applie that wholly to the honor of Christ then he that otherwise doth shall in the day of doome render an account of sin wheÌ euen that sword it selfe which in times paste he hath either draweÌ out against Christ or else he would not draw for Christ shall accuse him of disobedience If therfore we shall follow reasoÌ aright as the Minister of Christ ought not to coÌsecrate him for Prince whom he seeth not to be a ChristiaÌ or a Catholike so neither ought
But the pastors in the Church are as the minde is in the body of man as S. Gregorie Nissene hath noted I answere ⪠First this is but a similitude and therefore conââ¦inceth nothing howe ofte soeuer you alleage it We graunt that the Pastors are as it were the mynde of the Churche in the reasoning and discussing the fayth of Christ the word of God the sacraments and mysteries of Christes Church But againe in the maintenance and setting forth in the ouersight and publike direction in the punishement and correction of the trespasses the Prince is the minde the reason and the head also and a pastor in gods Church too And therefore this belongs not onely to the Bishops But be it the Prince be not the minde and reason whose place is in the head Were the King but as the hart or as the will whose place is in the harte yet as the minde dothe but eyther deuise by inuention or discerne by iudgement or remember by memorie and not assent or dissent like or mislike choose or refuse for that belongeth to the will so the spirituall pastor may deuise holsome remedies or remember the Prince of them or discerne in controuersies betwéen this and that which we denie not But the refusall or receiuing the liking or misliking the bidding or forbidding that lyes in the facultie of the Prince Not that the Prince hath facultie to will euery thing no more than the head may deuise euery thing for both ought to will and deuise onely good things ⪠but that the authoritie to put them in executioÌ and willing the members to do them as it procéedes principally next to God from y wil so the setting forth of godly ReligioÌ taught by the persuasioÌ of the pastor as the reason in the head procéedes principally next to God from the Prince as the will in the hart But nowe as M. Saunders hath for stalled the head for the Priest so if he will not relent the harte to the Prince yet I trust he will be thus good vnto him to compare him at the least to some principall member in the body as to the lightes the lunges the lyuer c. If nowe the lightes the lunges or the liuer be infected by whose infection diuerse others parts of the body would become also infected will the head therefore will the minde or reason byd cut them off and hurââ¦e theÌ out of the bodie least they infect the other members were it not an vnreasonable reason that would reason thus to haue those rotten meÌbers cut off froÌ the body of which remaining it may be feared least they should infect the other members when the cutting them awaye straight killeth all the members both head and hart and all and thus you sée M. Saunders if we shal reason by similitudes howe they make more for vs than for you But similitudes may delight or lighten a matter they are not of force to vrge it But M. Saunders will presse it with stronger arguments Besides this S. Paule by name doth teach that power is giuen to the Churche ouer the goods ouer the bodily things of the faithfull For he persuadeth the Corinthians that if they will nedes go to law they should go to lawe before Christians and not before Ethnikes And bicause it mought be said there were no publike Magistrates or iudges ordayned among the Christians he warneth the faithfull that they should appoynt iudges among themselues and if perhaps there were not wisemen in that kind which notwithstanding was not likely yet at the least they should rather appoint contemptible persons thaÌ to go to law before the infidels This place is alleaged before and there is aunswered The drift of it here consistes on this argument The Church hath power ouer the goods and bodyly things of the faithfull But the Pastors are the Church Ergo the pastors haue power ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull To the Maior I answere the Churche hath power but a limited power Such power as confoundeth not or taketh away the goods or bodily things of any of the faithfull which are members of the Church Such power as is competent to euery member of the Church to possesse to vse and dispose his owne goods and bodily things according to his priuate or publike calling To the Minor I denie it the pastors are not the Churche but members of the Church and haue power onely ouer such goods and bodily things as belong to theÌ And yet in that power that they haue of the proprietie of their own goods they may so little spoyle the Prince of his goods or bodily things that they holde them from the Prince and haue by him the peaceable possession of them For all that power vnder God is from the Prince to theÌ to al other Neither the Bishops nor any in the Church nor all the Church together hath power to take the Princes goods or his bodyly things froÌ him But M. SauÌders to enforce his argument citeth the sayof S. Paule 1. Cor. 6. In that he would haue Christians go to law if they will nedes go to law before Christians and not before Ethnikes Why M. Saunders are Christian Princes and faithfull Magistrates no better with you than Ethnikes and are you Priestes onely Christians for else howe can you apply this to the present purpose that Priests should haue power ouer the goods of the faithfull that the faithfull should run for decision of their coÌtrouersies to the Priests not to the Princes that the Bishops may iudge of the Princes goods aod kingdome and giue it away to another trow you this was the meaning of S Paule But you excuse the matter with this that they had then no Christian Magistrates As though therfore he had bidden such lawe matters to be determined by their pastors No M. Saund. this was neither the words nor the meaning of him For he knewe the pastors had another power and inough to do therin although they busied not theÌselues in the law matters that fel out among the ChristiaÌs Not that s. Paule thought they might haue no power of any bodily things nor proprietie of temporall goods or that he thought they mighte in no case be peacemakers in suche brabling matters but that Saint Paule woulde haue the pleadyng and decision of suche things to be rather belonging ordinaryly to some faithfull and honest manne chosen among them selues than to runne to heathen Iudges Which words among themselues do as it were declare that he ment such as was of their owne calling and not their ââ¦astor ⪠Which is more euident in that he saith is there no wise man among you what not one that can iudge betwene brother and brother so that he speaketh in generall and not onely of the pastor And where he saith chose a contemptible person Except ye will make the pastor contemptible ⪠it argueth he ment not this iudge should
be the pastor So that this place as it maketh nothing for the power of the Priests ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull so it maketh much here in against them For if S. Paule in such matters of goods and bodily things rather than they should not haue a Christian iudge woulde haue them chose among themselues euen a contemptible person how much more now when the Church hath faithfull iudges and Christian Princes it ought in such controuersies to run to them for Iustice rather than to the Priests and Bishoppes that are of another calling Moreouer least any shoulde say that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to do with the businesse of this worlde he sayth expressely do ye not know that the saintes shall iudge of thys world and if the world shal be iudged by you are ye vnworthy to iudge of small things know ye not that we shall iudge the Angels how much more worldly things Behold the Apostle reasoneth from the spirituall power to the temporall on this wise To whom that which is more is lawfull to him is lawfull that which is lesse But we Christians shall iudge of the world and we shall iudge the renegate Angels and the Deuils themselues the which commeth by the spirituall power ⪠wherby we be made the sonnes of God and the coinheritors of Christ much more therefore may we exercise secular iudgements VVherby it appeareth that secular things are both inferior ââ¦o spirituall and are not estranged from the spirituall power but may light vnder it chiefely then when the matter is in hand of punishing or iudging those men that are the meÌbers of the Church of Christ. ãâã saye not Master Saunders that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to doe vvith the businesse of this world this is but your sclaunder We say that the spirituall Ministers of the Churche of Christe haue not so to do with such vvorldly businesse that they maye turquise all the vvorlde and alter the states of vvorldly kingdomes and occupie them selues about vvorldly affaires in such vvorldly dominion as you pretende they maye Whereto you abuse shamefully Saint Paules sayings He speaketh there of vvorldly matters and you applye it to all iudgementes yea to the iudging of a kingdome ⪠But you replle he saith the Saints shall iudge the worlde and the Angels vvhiche are greater thinges than kingdomes howe muche more then kingdomes that are lesser things Trowe you Master Saunders he speaketh there of such iudging the vvorlde that they should iudge like chiefe Iustiâ⦠of realmes and kingdomes whether this or that Prince shall enioye them or shall be dispossessed of them No M. Saunders she speaketh of no suche thing The worlde shall be iudged in them as Chrysostome well noteth Iudicabunt non ipsi iudices c. They shal iudge ⪠not they themselues sitting in iudgemeÌt exacting an accouÌt God forbid but they shal coÌdemne the vvorld the vvhich signifying he saith and if in you c. He saith not of you but in you As who should say the iust condemnation of these that are the vvorldlings shall shine in the saluation of you that are the Saints This therefore proueth ãâã such worldly iudgemeÌt as you pretend Secondly you abuse S. Paule as though in speaking of the Saints he spake onely of the spirituall Pastors wheras he speaketh in generall of the whole congregation Are Saintes and Christians only Priestes with you this is both manifest wresting of S. Paule and shamelesse arrogancie in your selues But you say the Churche hath it by the spirituall povver vvherby vve be made the sonnes of God and coinheritors of Christe We graunt you Master Saunders But doth this spirituall povver belong onely to Priestes you say it appeareth hereby vve maye exercise secular iudgementes whome meane you by this vve Master Saunders your selues that are the Priestes But S. Paule speaketh of Christian people and not of the Pastors only yea least of al of the Pastors Wherevpon saith Haimo out of Gregorie on these wordes choose him that is contemptible Secundum Gregorium c. According to Gregorie by contemptible persons vvee may vnderstande secular men hauing the knovvledge of humaine lavves and in their personages being honorable who in comparison of them that vnderstand the diuine lawes and pierce the mysteries of the holy Trinitie are contemptible and simple although they be faithful ⪠And according to this sense vvee muste reade it affirmatiuely bicause suche are to be appointed vvhiche of the Canons are called the Sonnes of the Church I sprake it to your shame bycause althoughe I commaunde it not you ought to haue done it And therefore he commaundeth such to be ordeyned bycause they that ought to serue on the altare and meditate Diuine Sermons and giue the vvorde of preaching to the people ought to estraunge themselues from secular businesse and iudgements Likewise saithe your Cardinall Hugo The glosse calleth them contemptible that are not apt to great offices in the Church as to preach and teach And this is an argument that my lord the Pope ought not to appoint Masters of Diuinitie to be Iudges of temporall things To your shame saith the glosse that those should examine earthly causes that haue gotten the vvisedome of outvvarde things But those that are enryched vvith spirituall giftes ought not to be entangled vvith earthly businesse that vvhile they be not driuen to inferior goods they may be able to attende on the higher goods Hovvebeit this must greatly be cared for that they that shine in spiritual goods forsake not vtterly the businesse of their vveake brethreÌ Thus your Papists theÌselues are of a contrarie iudgement to you M. Saunders besides all your Popes and Councels Canons that the spirituall Pastors should not be these Iudges in secular things that here Saint Paule speaks on To wrest therefore these wordes spoken of any faithfull Christian only to your Priestes to wring this sentence from the state of the Churche then being without any faithfull Magistrate to the time now when they haue many and those not choseÌ of theÌselues but ordeyned of the higher Magistrate to wrythe it from the iudgements and taking vp of their petit quarels to the deposing or setting vp of Kings or altering kingdomes is clean beyond the meaning of S. Paule an euident violence iniurie to Gods word Now vpoÌ this sentence thus wrested you procéed to your argumeÌt saying For their goodes are so muche subiecte to the ecclesiasticall povver that it is lavvfull for the Churche of priuate men to ordeine Magistrates that should iudge of secular causes and not only of ecclesiasticall But no man can passe more righte to an other than he hath himselfe Therefore the Churche vvhich hath povver to make them Iudges that vvere priuate men before hath much more it selfe ouer those secular causes receiued povver by the Ministers of God that as Aaron are called to the
thoughe it were paste for the certeintie of the diuine prouidence So that yet no acte was ââ¦ast agaynst Saul or vnto Dauid but onely a declaration of Gods purpose to come Héere was therefore no deposing of the one nor placing of the other As for Samuels other sentence 1. Reg. 15. is more destnite when he saythe For that thou hast caste off the worde of the Lorde the Lorde hath caste off thee that thou shouldest not be king And yet he sayth not héere I depose thee ⪠or the Lorde deposeth thée from thine estate and froÌ hencefoorth thou shalte neither be king nor be reputed and taken of the Churche of God for king any longer Samuell sayth not thus nor ment thus nor Saule vnderstoode him thus but desired Samuel to returne with him and worship the Lorde And Samuell repeating his words sayd I wil not returne with thee bicause thou hast cast of the comandement of the Lord the Lorde hath cast off thee And Samuell turned to go away but he caught holde of the skirte of his cloake and it rent And Samuell sayde to him the Lorde hath rent the kingdome of Israell this day froÌ thee and hath giuen it to thy neighbour a better than thou And yet in all these so effectuall words Samuell sayth not héere In Dei nomine Amen c ⪠In the name of God Amen I do héere presenly depose thée and so foorth as the Pope vseth to do No all this was but a declaration of the time to come as Lyra saythe Dicunt autem Hebraei c. Some Hebrnes say that Samuel then gaue a signe vnto Saule that he shoulde raigne for him that shoulde cutte off the hemme of his garment VVhiche Dauid did as is conteyned 1. Reg. 24. VVherevpon Saule seeing the hemme of his garment in Dauids hande sayde nowe I knowe for certayne that thou shalte raygne And so the Glosse titeth Sainct Augustine Iste cui dixit c. This man to whome the Lorde sayde the Lorde despiseth thee that thou shouldest not be King of Israell and the Lorde hathe rent this day the kingdome out of thy hand ruled fortie yeres to wite euen as long as Dauid raigned And yet this thing he hearde the first time of his raigne Therefore wee vnderstande ⪠it to be spoken to this ende that none of the stocke of him shoulde raigne He rente it saythe the Glosse althoughe he reygned fortie yeres afterwarde But as then he desââ¦rued that the kingdome shoulde be rente from him and giuen to a better ⪠c. Thus these sayinges and doinges of Samuell were not the reall deposing of Saule from his Royall throne For bothe he tooke him selfe still as King and desired Samuel to honor him before the Elders of his people and before Israell But nowe sayth he honor me Sinon c. Although sayth ãâã not for my persons sake yet do this thing for the honor of my royall dignitie And so Samuell assented to him willing sayth Lyra to giue it vnto Saule so long as he was of God suffred in the kingdome Nowe as for Dauid Samuell in déede anoynted him and that as you saye priuilie Whiche argueth agaynst you that it was no publike acte of making him king but as it were a preparatiue vnto it and a priuie forewarning of Gods purpose to come Secondly it was a thing of Gods especiall appoynting or else Samuell would not nor coulde haue euer done it Thirdly saythe ââ¦yra Aduertendum est c ⪠VVe muste marke that Dauid was anoynted to be king not to this purpose that he shoulde streighte possesse the kingdome But when the acceptable wyll of God shoulde come But God did suffer Saule in the possession of the kingdome euen vntill his death And thus we sée vpon this acte of the Lorde by Samuell as well to Saule as to Dauid ⪠héere was yet no suche deposing of the one nor setting vp the other as Master Sanders claymeth héere reasoning from the example of Samuels dooing to Saule and Dauid for the Pope to ãâã Christian Princes offending and to set vp others in the ââ¦places The second thing that he gathereth héerevpon is this that the king by the Pope béeing deposed is now no longer true lawful king ⪠but a playne vsurper and a wrongful occupier of the kings seaââ¦e beeing armed with a bande of souldiers but the other that is annoynted or otherwise consecrated by the Bishop in his place shall truely from this day forward be the king and the people ought to go to him and not obey the other And for this he alleageth three reasons First the saying of God by the Prophet Osée Secondly the acknowledging of Ionathas Saules sonne Thirdly the gathering of diuers persons vnto Dauid First for the wordes of the Prophet whiche are these They haue raygned and not by me They were Princes I know them not I answere First these worâ⦠are Gods complaynt agaynst the wickednesse of those kinges of Israel ⪠that directed not their gouernment by Gods law not that they were not kings but that they were wicked kings Not that they were by no meanes ordeyned of God for ãâã potestas est à Deo all power is of God and God sayth in generall per mâ⦠reges regnant Kings rule by me so well heathen as faythfull kinges ⪠Pilates power was from aboue These kinges of Israell Ieroboam Achab Iehu c. were of Gods ordeyning Yeà Iehu whose house héere God complayned vpon and sayde he and his ofspring raigned not by him ⪠were yet notwithstanding made kinges and raygned by him In respecte of their ambition and priuate affections their raigne was not of him In respecte of Gods ordinaunce of his iustice of his prouidence it was not only permitted but also especially appoynted of him As bothe the ⪠texte is ãâã and your owne glosse confesseth for Hieroboam the elder that it was done by Gods will althoughe it were done also by the peoples sinne that regarded not the will of God but ââ¦llowed their owne selfewil And so in some respecte it was not the worke of God and yet in other respects it ââ¦as the worke of god And so héere ãâã himselfe and sayth I know them not Not that he was ignorant of them but he acknowledged not their doings Secondly neither the prophet Osee nor any other prophet tooke vpon them to depose any of those wicked kinges but to declare the wrath and vengeance of God to come vpon them After which declarations they did not subtract froÌ them their ciuill obedience count them from that day forward no longer to be their kings or exhorted the Church of God to forsake their polytike gouernment but hauing declared their message from God they let them alone till eyther God him selfe did strike theÌ or stirred vp by some especiall and extraordinarie meanes some forren or domestical persecuâ⦠of them Thirdly this maketh nothing to proue that those kings
daye of doom deseââ¦ed for the blessed virgins sake Christes ignorance Discip. ibidem exempl 9. Who hearde this might â⦠blast besides sir William The vtter corruption of the clergie mon kerie by Christes ovvne ⪠mouth Ibid em So contemptuously they terme Christe Christes aâ⦠me stayed by his mother The Papistes teach that sain tes praye for proââ¦oÌging the day of doome and Christ teacheth vs to prai for the hastening of it Matth. 6. Luke 24. Marke 13. Apocal. 6. Apoca. 22. Discip. de miraculis beatae Mariae Christes iudgement reuoked Alan ⪠de rupe in psalterio beatae virginis More ascribed to the blessed virgin than to Christ. Vigerius Saonensis Cardiralis decacord 4. can 12. Christ bounde to denie no petition to hys mother Iacob de Vorag serm 1. in die pascae The blessed virgin made the reconciler and mediator betweene God and man Rom. 5. 1. Tim. 1. Eph. 2. Enchirid. ad Laur. ca. 32. Rom. 5. 2. Tim. 2 Robertus de Licio sermon de sanctis ser. 24. de coÌcept beatae Mariae ca. 1. Nisi pro Amore huius puellae reuerentia Col. 1. Iohn 1. Blasphemie in all the whole popish church Gen. â⦠in Prolog eiusdem ad serm concep Iacobus de Vorag serm quarag 50. Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem IdeÌ in quadâ⦠â⦠8. in assuÌ serm 8. S. Peter is turned out of office belike But Christ said ego sum ostiuÌ A proper reasoÌ wel applied In assump serm 7. God vnmercifull Christ cleane forgotten Serm. 5. The Papists blasphemous examples of inuocating the bles Virgin Discip. exemp 40. In LegeÌda fest assumpt Iohannes de monte in suo Mariali Discipulus Disc. exem 57. Alanus de rupe Albertus Magnus episcopus de ââ¦anlingen ãâã The papistââ¦s shut that these were but priuate mens errours Missale in officio Beatae Mariae The Father the Soone giuen by the blessed virgiâ⦠Salutis causa vitae porta Cum in graââ¦ia sumus Dominae nostrae All the Papists shiftes about inuocation confuted Legenda in vita S. Petri. De ãâã arb lib. 3. In epist. Ioh. Tract 1. S. Aug against the papists shift of intercessioÌ De vera Rel. Cap. 55. S. August iudgeth the Saints dishonored by inuocating them The Popishe saincts that desired to be wor shipped weââ¦e but either illusions of diuels or Papistes forgeries The Pââ¦pistes exception of the blessed Virgin from other creatures Deciuit dei Li. 10. ca. 19. The antiquitie of the error of inuocating saincts Contr. haer l. 3 cont collyrid Mar. Antidicomarit The Papistes shift that they offer not sacrifice to saincts De ciuit Dei. li. 10. ca. 10. The Papistes offred sacrifice to saincts De assumpt Mar. serm 5. The Papists confirme their inuocation by the Iewes I dolatrie Rom. 12. Iacobus de Vor. serm 5. Assump Reliques Beleefe in Reliques Declar. 61. fol. 384. The doutfulnesse of Reliques whose they were Declar. 3. ex collo fol. 334 Hierusalem Rome douted whether they stand there where they stoode in the olde time Alphons aduers haer li. 13 The Popes religion consists in Reliques If it wer good the shewing of it woulde not deface it The Popes owne confession that in most places the people were abused with reliques Antiquitie for Reliques Hieron contra Vigilaââ¦t In Mat. 23. hom 43. De. 7. Math. hom 7. Clemens ad lac Augustinus de opeââ¦e Monac Concil ColoÌ in explic Decalogi More confidence in Reliques than in God. Lightes The first occasion of lights in the primatiue Church The abuse of lightes The heathens vse of lightes The Papistes obiection of lights taken from the olde Testament From whence the popish lights did spring Polygr postil Pars. 3 in die purifi In die purifi serm The Papists triple reason for lightes This is quite contrarie to Poligrans former saying Pater luminuÌ is forgotten Legenda Anglice in die Purif A noble ââ¦ale of a Masse that Christ ââ¦ong on Candlemas day Yong Angels Harde holde betweene a Ladie and an Angell for a Candle Hallowing of lightes Contr. haereseâ⦠li. 6. de exorcis Conc. Tol. 4. ca. 8. Not against the faith to omâ⦠holy candles Coniuring by candles Vertues in lightes Missale Pro cesââ¦onale in die Purif Serm. discipul A tale of a daâ⦠ned soule that beat the diuels with a candle Psal. 118. Ioh. 1. Luc. 1. Ioh. 3. The Papistes flie the ãâã light ââ¦nd set vp external lightes ââ¦phe 5. ââ¦ib 6. ca. 2. Hierom adversus Vigil Ceremonies The Churche ouerburdened with Ceremonies in S. Aug. time August epist. 119. Marc. 7. Matth. 11. Matth. 15. Ioh. 9. How the Papistes exalt thoÌ selues aboue Gods word Pigghius de inuocat sanctoruÌ controuers 13. What the Papistes meane by the name of the Church What manner of huswife the popish Church ââ¦s Matth. 11. Matth. 24. The children of the mother Church of Rome Ioh. 8. Matth. 10. Ioh. 10. Matth. 3. Matth. 11. Coll. 2. 1. Cor. 1. Iob. 14. Ioh. 1. Rom. 10. In Ezech. homil 7. Ad Pompeiâ⦠contra Stephanum Luc. 18. 3. Esdr. 3. A notable similitude of Cyprian Hilarius in Matth. can 14 Chrisostomus in Matth. cap. 23. In Matth. 15. homil 32. Pretence of Auncesters forefathers The Papistes shift that their traditions are not like the Pharisies traditions Ibidem Doctrines of men The sufficiencie of the Gospell In epist. ad tit hom 1. The similitude of a crier and a preacher Li. de paradiso ca. 12. The similitude of a witnesse bearer Seââ¦m 6. De vera rel ca. vlt. In Psal. 160. In Esa ca. 2. Act 5. Luc. 20. Iib. 1. ââ¦a 5. Humaine traditions the chiefest Bulwark and fouÌdations of the Popish doctrine Ibidem How the Sorbonists dealte with Erasâ⦠for speaking against popish ceremonies Declarat ad Cesuras Facultatis tit 11. propos 58. Frasmus excuse Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Ceremonies likened to Wagons Kneeling Howe we vse wel euen some of the Popishe Ceremonies but nothing like to their vsing of them Trust in Ceremonies Decl. 70. ex collo 1. Erasmus propositions of the Popishe Ceremonies He meaneth Canonistes Concupiscence sinne after Baptisme The MessaliaÌs Li. 1. contr 2. epist Pelag. ad Bonif. Our confessioÌ How original sinne is taken away Pigghius de peccato orig Contiouers 1. Ibidem Pigghius offended with S. Aug. for say ing coacupiscence is finne The inconueniences that master St. incurreth More absurditie to say God imputes ãâã where is none than to say wher sinne is God imputes none The obiection of the Messalians heresie to vs returned on the Papists Histo. Tripart lib. 7. ca. 11. The Papistes worse than the Messalians The Papistes say ⪠God conââ¦th where ãâã ãâã Rom. 6. Rom. 5. The Papistes make original sinne to be ââ¦o sinne Our owne satisfactions doe more than the death of Christ by the Papists doctrine The grosse ignorance of the learned Papists in the ââ¦udiments of christianitie What we are before baptisme Ioh. 3. Rom. 8. 1. Cor. 5. Col. 2. Gal. 3. Rom. 3.
kings Supra 799. sand pag. 82. How M. sand esteemes of al other men that denie that which he affirmes M. sand contradictions Christion prin ces power is not onely an earthly power sand pag. 82. Not we but the Papistes confound both powers sand pag. 82. 2. Cor. 3. 1. Reg. 8. The due and true spiritual Power The Popishe spiritual power How the princes power is earthly howe heauenly Supra 791. The Princes power came from christ Prouerb 8. Christ a sauior as well in that he is a king as in that he is a Priest. How both the Princes the Bishops pouer pertayne to heauen and minister life sand pag. 82. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. Ephes. 4. The Popishe Churches iurisdictions sand pag. 82. 83. M. Sand presupposall of the Princes doing iniurie to the Church or suffering it The Pastors admonition to Princes doing euil The Prince not the Priests onely gouerneth the churche of God. M. Saund. presupposall retorned on the Priestes doing iniurie to the Prince or suffering it The Popishe Priestes will only admonishe them selues How roughly the Popishe Priestes will admonishe them selues Difference betweene admonishing gouerning deposing The Priestes ouer hastie remedie to ameÌd the Prince ⪠sand pag. 83. Math. 18. sand pag. 8â⦠3. Reg. 1â⦠Remedie agaynst offences and dangers The inconueniences of the Popish remedies The danger of the Popishe doctrine sand pag. 83. Psal. 86. Math. 16. 1. Cor. 5. Iohn 21. Math. 16. The Churche of God not left destitute of medicines for suche diseases Luc. 2â⦠Collos. 1. Psalm 12â⦠Psalm 56. Math. 5. M. Saund. corruption of the text against Princes Excommunication Who should be auoyded and how by Saint Paules meaning 1. Cor. 5. How a vitious king is to be shunned and iudged The testimony of S. Paule returned on the Popish Priests Rom. 13. Gene. 18. Peter not the chiefe pastor of the Church How M. sand ex o ââ¦deth these wordes fede my shepe How Peter fed the shepe of Christ. 1. Peter 2. How M. sand applies binding losing of Princes sand pag. 83. A shameful abusing of Christs saying M. Saunders shift sand pag. 8â⦠Ieremie 1. The Princes charge for misusing his sworde Psalm 2. If the Prince abuse his sword the spirituall minister maye not take it froÌ him The Papistes wresting the senteÌce of god to Ieremie How Ieremie pulled downe and set vp kinges and kingdomes Lyra in Ierem. 1. These thinges were done loÌg after Ieremies time Ieremie is said to doe them bicause he fortolde them The doer of them was only God such instruments as he vsed which were no Priestes not Prophets Ierem. 45. Ierem. 42. How the Pope shoulde set vp and pul down kings kingdomes if he will followe Ieremie The sentence spoken to Ieremie applyed to Christe Glossa in Lyra in Ierem. 1. How the Ministers of Christ oughte to pull downe let vp kingdomes Lyra. Ierem 1. Glossa in Lyra What maner of conquest of kingdomes this is sand pag. 83. Iohn 18. Math. 13. Iohn 15. Iohn 1. In ca. 18. Ioh. M. sand answere to this obiection My kingdome is not of thys worlde Iohn 18. The Popes kingdome worldly M. Sand ãâã by distinction of this wordr the worlde The naturall sense of world ly kingdome Glossa in Lyra Lyra. in Ioh. 18. Ferus in Iohn 18. Christes kingdom expelleth no temporall Princes from their Dominions The significations of the kingdome of Christ. The difference of these kingdomes The error of the Papists Ludolphus de vita Christi parte 2. cap. 61 The Pope and his Prelates kingdom confuted by the Papists them selues August in cap. 18. Ioan. S. Augustine thought not that the kingdome of Christ hindreth vvorldly kingdomes sand pag. ââ¦4 Christ a king as he is God man. The Papistes confound the veritie of his manhoode Ioan. 18. Ferus in ââ¦o 1â⦠The manner of Christes kingdome Hovv Christ ruleth The feoftmeÌts of Christes kingdome Supra 797. Sand. 84. Math. 28. Rom. 14. Psal. 8. In Ioan. li. 4. ca. 12. Psal. â⦠1. Cor. 15. Rom. 9. The gouernement of Christ 1. Cor. â⦠Adams kingdome Sand. 84. Ioâ⦠21. Math. 16. Math. 28. Peter not tâ⦠first Pastor Marci 16. Ioan. 10. Christe vseth not a vvorldly kingdome by the Administration of the spirituall misters Sand. 84. Ioââ¦n 6. Luke 1â⦠M. sand shifting off the examples of Christes fleeing from being a vvorldly King and refusing to be a ââ¦vorldly Iudge The cause of Christes refusal vvas not on ly in the originall least it should seeme to come of theÌ Ferus in 10. 6. The causes vvhy Christe fled from a vvorldly king dome Christe vvould not giue any occasion of sedition The Popishe Prelates of an other iudgement than Christe The Papistes compared to the carnall Ievves Carnal pastors M. Saunders shift to Christs refusall to be a iudge Luc. 12. What the man thought of Christ ââ¦hat vvould haue him a iudge Hofmeister in Lucâ⦠12. Why Christ tooke not on him the ãâã of a Magistrate Christ abolished not the Magistrats office though he himselfe refused it All iudgement of all temporal matters not vtteââ¦ly debarred from the spiritual Ministers ⪠What kind of iudging is debarred sand pag. 84. Lucâ⦠12. Though all things all to be referred to gods kingdom yet the kingdoÌ cââ¦nsists not in all things 1. Coâ⦠10. Rom. ââ¦4 How worldly things belong to the kingdome of God. How the spirituall ministers of Christ may haue a bââ¦ance of worldly things In what respect they belong to theÌ to al the faithfull in what respect they belong not vnto them How the Popishââ¦ââ¦relates would haue worldly thiÌgs The Papistes haue no measure in hauing the cormorants no measure in pulling away In what parte and respect the beleeuer in Christ hathe left off to be of the world S. Aug. wrested by master Sanders How faithfull kingdomes leaââ¦e off and how not to be of the world Aug ⪠in tractatu ââ¦n loa 11â⦠Howe euery faythfull is a king in a mysticall sense but not in a literall sense sand pag. 84. M. sand styll vvrestes thys vvorde the vvorldâ⦠The simple literall meaning of Christ in ââ¦aying ⪠Hys kingdome is not of thys vvorlde The opinion oâ⦠the Ievves that offred him the kingdome His Disciples opinion in cra ââ¦ng preââ¦erment in hys kingdome Math. 20. Hovve Christe ruleth Christian Princes Hovv M. sand vvould haue al Christendome and a greate parte of Heathenesse subiecte to the Pope Iohn 18. sand pag. 84. Tit. 3. Whether it vvere a vvicked deede for Bishops to depose a vvicked king Thoughe the subiect be not bound to obey the vices yet he is bounde to obey the state Thoughe Bishops can not depose Princes yet Princes can depose Bishops The vices that he surmiseth on Princes are apparante in the Pope and his Prelates sand pag. 85. What the prea cher may do agaynst a vvic ked Prince No bodily punishment of the King belongeth to the Bishop What may be
the people ignorant least they should discerne them And ye haue sayd of your hypocritiall errours of your ââ¦ayned myracles and legends of lies latebunt quam diu pââ¦rerunt vââ¦lebunt apud ⪠ãâã ãâã mendaciâ⦠The ignorant people will ostéeme such lying to ââ¦es And therfore we may well returne your conclusion on your selfe that ye be those false Prophets and lying masters such as Saint Peter spake of bringing in wicked and damnable sects God giue them grace which are deceyued by you so well to knowe you as we that do examine your writings haue good cause to know you And thus your wordes of course fathered as ye call it in a luskie lane of some indiuiduum vagum a certaine Protestant of late dayes and for witnesse hereof aske your fellow if it be not so howe well in euery poynt they appeare that as they say the foxe was the first finder to be your owne tootoo open sayinges and doynges to charge vs withall a Gods name hardily let all the worlde be iudge His obiecting of stragling from the matter fo 4. a. Of false alleaging his Authours wordes fol. 5. b. Of omitting and concealing circumstances fol. 7. a. Of deepe silence to aunswere the pith of the matter fol. 8. a. Of obiecting fleshly pleasures fol. 8. b. Of quarelling that our Bishops be no Bishops fol. 9. a. b. Of passing good maners for misreporââ¦ing n. a. Of obiecting conspiracies and sedition fol. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. Remoue them with a writte of returne to the Papists themselues and then they are fully answered This lo at the least sayth M. St. fol. 37. b. heresie worketh in the Church that it maketh the truth to be more certenly knowne and more firmely and stedfastly afterwarde kept so sayth S. Augustine the matter of the Trinitie was neuer well discussed till the Arrians barked agaynst it c. This is truer M. St. than eyther ye wene or would The experience whereof is dayly to be séene in the Papists defending their errors and impugning the truth in their subtile practises in their tyrannicall inquisitions and cruel torments yea euen in this yours and your fellowes volumes striuing to obscure and deface the truth but all these steps notwithstanding the truth is and shal be more and more set forth the Popish errors ââ¦sse and lesse begutle vs and the kingdome of Antichrist detected and forsaken Fol. 40. a. M. St. telleth vs that S. Greg. Nazianzen saith Verum est ê vnum est mendaciuÌ auteÌ est multiplex The thing which is true is alwayes one like vnto it selfe whereas the lie the cloked and counterfeyt thing is in it selfe variable and diuerse By the which rule here giuen of so learned and graue a father I am here put to knowledge that the Papists not being content with the onely worde of God alwayes one and like it selfe but ioyning thereto mens variable and diuerse vnwritten verities That the Papistes being not content with the true spirituall worship of one God alwayes one like himselfe not with one mediator Iesus Christ but yéelding spirituall worship to Saints and Saints pictures besides God and making other variable and diuerse mediators to God besides Christ that the Papists being not content with the only merites satisfaction of Christs death always one and like itselfe ⪠but deuising variable and diuerse Masses Diriges Pilgrimages and satisfactions besides being not content with the flat scripture alwayes one and like it selfe that testifieth only faith in christ to be the meanes of appreheÌding our iustification but adding variable diuerse infinit workâ⦠of their own to deserue their iustification by being not content with the only title profession of Christianitie alwayes one ãâã like ãâã but sââ¦tting vp variable diuerse feas professioÌs religions names besides be but cloked counterleyy liers ⪠as Greg Nazââ¦n hath most truly said And thus ye sée M. St. how you citing falsly this sentence to proue the ââ¦variable ãâã ãâã your selfe on ⪠the thumbes Fol. 40. b. Let the King sayth master Stapleton reode on Gods name not onely that booke but all the Bible beside it is a worthie studie for him but let him beware least this sweete honie be not turned into poyson to him c. What wordes are here that we say not also yea his permission of Princes to read and studie the Bible ⪠is our most earnest prayer and exhortation And they whatsoeuer they would seeme nowe to pretende bicause they can no longer keepe it vnder their bushell it is full sore agaynst their heart that Princes should read or studie it Otherwise why suffred they not Princes to giue them selues to so woorthie and commendable a studie heretofore And nowe that they can kéepe it in no longer who it is that turneth this sweete honie of Gods worde into poyson is easie to iudge Whether hée that giueth bread to the hungrie bringing forth the whole loafe of the onely pure wheate and willeth them that are to be fedde therewith to sée to view to féelâ⦠the whole and in seasonable time breaketh it to his fellow seruants before their faces that they may fully refresh their hungrie seules or he that beateth his fellowe seruaunts hydeth the loafe from them and if he must néedes giue them some mingleth the pure wheate with his owne branne and that worse is with Darnell and more of that by thrée halues than of the wheate and will néedes haue the receyuer blindfolded nor will suffer him to take it in his owne handes but by gobbet meale thrust it into his mouth nor will let the partie sée what in this sort he crammes him with as though he were worse than the Capon in a coupe and yet for all this will beare him in hande it is the true bread Whether of these twaine be the likelier to giue this poysoned bread no man that hath any witte but will giue a shrewde ayme As for false translations false dangerous and damnable gloses wherewith master St. sayth we haue corrupted and watred the same and made it as it were of pleasant wine most soure vinegar it is so euident on his owne part that the Papistes haue so vsed the Scripture and that so shamefully that it séemeth he is past shame that he dare once mencion it and yet he obiecteth it to vs that admit the expresse scripture without any gloses at all Take heede to your selfe Maister Horne for I say to you that you and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion manie and detestable heresies and so withall playne idolatrie Blot out these wordes Maister Horne and put in Maister Stapleton and then it is truely sayd Although wée not only say it but proue it also And therfore you and your felowes M. Stapleton had nede to take hede thereto fol 42. a. VVe say you are wicked deprauers of religion c. VVe say ye are as great enimies as euer the Church of Christ had